I have both a Judo club and a BJJ club nearby. The BJJ focuses on groundwork, but there is also a wrestling session mid-week at the same club.
Would I be better learning Judo 3x a week, or BJJ 3x a week supplemented with wrestling once?
What do you mean "would I be better"? What are your goals with learning martial arts, do you plan to compete, what interests you more?
If you have money, train bjj, and if you are poor, train judo.
They're both for faggots that like touching men
>>1389439
Closet fag detected
>>1389444
No. Thats the fag looking to roll around with men
>>1389452
>Cant grapple without thinking of having gay sex with his training partners
wew lad
>>1389466
I don't grapple with men though. Im not a faggot
>>1389486
We get it, Omar.
judo is much harder, bjj is the path of least resistance.
if you did bjj for 3 years you would beat the version of yourself that did judo for 3 years in open grappling to a submission
if you do either for 3 years you'll be able to beat the average person in a 1 on 1 unarmed fight more times than not
>>1389538
Takes twice as longer to get a black belt in BJJ.
>>1389545
Hey, the judo version of you would easily beat the bjj version to ippon
>>1389538
BJJ is about the soft art of using your body, and channeling all the potential hardness into your penis, so you can ease your hardness into your opponent with softness.
>>1389549
that's all political, bjj decided their black belt means mastery where as every other black belt is just considered proficiency
>>1389245
I'm a judo nidan and highschool wrestling coach. If you're given an opportunity try both. Honestly you can't go wrong with either. So now ultimately what you have to figure out and what we can't decide, is how does the teaching and coaching style of the gyms mesh with your learning style, the cost, and the schedule.
Both are good styles that complement each other, and ultimately as you progress through your martial art career you probably should take the time to fill in the other and learn both, if you can't that's fine.
Both are good
>>1389620
Yeah, it's not about squeezing out money from practitioners or anything.
>>1389620
>bjj decided their black belt means mastery where as every other black belt is just considered proficiency
If that's true, they decided that based on a lack of actual knowledge of psychology relating to learning and the development of skill.
>>1389566
this is tru
>>1389656
no one is holding a gun to your head to get to black belt.
a blue belt after 2 years is enough to wreck the average person that's untrained.
>>1389661
they are brazilian, what did you expect?
I've been training judo for the last year, very strongly considering switching to BJJ.
>>1389856
Why is that?
I'm not OP, but I'm in a similar quandary, with the exception that I'm already leaning toward Judo because it looks like something I'd enjoy more.
I'd say go with the BJJ x wrestling combo, judo is nice and effective in its own sport but if you want to compete in events like adcc or any other kind of submission events for sure go with BJJ x wrestling.
>>1389886
ADCC is technically a BJJ rule set, so it makes sense.
>>1389856
>>1389871
Personally I am in the position where I suck at Nagewaza and I am great at Newaza. So I prefer BJJ as well.
People say Judo and BJJ is pretty much the same thing with a different focus, but it is more than that in my opinion.
If you are a small and weak guy or woman you will have a significant disadvantage in Judo standup, but not so much at BJJ. #1 advice from Judo guys is to start lifting weights.
For me the reward in BJJ is higher, because I can work for a submission and overcome or make up for physical disadvantage. In Judo that is not the case because the standup is so much more important and the fight is over sooner or gets stood up again if your opponent stalls.
So that is a reason why I would switch from Judo to BJJ if I could afford it. I am more competitive there.
>>1390134
Kano was a tiny man but he beat people twice his size all the time.
>>1390134
My main problem with the whole
>every judo guy just says go lift weights and condition
is that there is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with that.
I've been doing both for about 5 years, and the judo culture seems to take their own fitness as a much more serious part of the sport.
In reality, guard is not a good idea, slamming someone into the ground is. In competition, or with mats around, I love bjj, but playing from your back is something I've never done in any of the four IRL situations I've come across. Dominant top play based wrestling with throws seems to work best.
>>1389245
Bjj if you want submission grappling and the ability to escape if an IRL fight goes to the ground. Judo if you want to throw people into insensibility. I'd recommend judo if you want self defense because you can learn some pretty devastating throws, bjj is likely to get you stomped to death.
Why not do one then later do the other? Being very experienced in one will make the progression in both easier.
3x Judo a week is probably cheaper than 3x BJJ, even before supplementing it with wrestling.
Honestly beyond that it all comes down to which one you find more fun. It won't make much sense to pick one over another if you hate it and quit midway anyway. I pick judo because I like the standup game at least as much as groundwork, even if I get thrown more than I throw people.
>>1390134
>#1 advice from Judo guys is to start lifting weights.
at the club level that's mainly for injury prevention more than increasing your performance. Judo is a lot more injury-prone.
>>1389871
I'm still not clear on it myself, but here's a bunch of reasons that are bumping around in my head:
Firstly, I'm a pretty small guy (5'6 66kg). If I was in Japan this wouldn't be a problem, but because most of my partners are bigger than me I'm constantly at a disadvantage and when I go to compete I get limited fights because there's hardly any guys in my class.
Getting slammed on the floor gets old after a while (and I'm talking about drilling, its not just that I'm shit at randori because I can hold my own). Breakfalls prevent injury, but they don't make the landing any softer.
I am increasingly concerned about injury. It seems like every month someone disappears because they're rekt. I get that obviously injuries can happen in BJJ too but that's likely because you didn't tap. In judo, injuries happen fast and are unstoppable. So its just a constant risk hanging over my head.
On the same note, because it's relatively low participation we have small numbers at our club (and at most clubs as far as I know) so with limited training partners you either get guys (or girls) that are more advanced than you kicking your arse, or newbies who are way more likely to fuck your shit up because they don't know what they're doing.
Initially I wanted to go all the way to black belt but watching people do their gradings recently and there are some many unnecessary techniques. Of the 32 core throws you'll be lucky to use 10 often enough to be effective with them. So what's the point, ya know?
From a self defence standpoint I understand the argument that a good throw is better than ending up on the floor in a street fight, but you're opponent in judo are forced to stand up straight(ish) and (famously) no attacking the legs. I'd like to learn singles, and doubles, and ankle picks etc as they seem more real world practical. As a side note to that, I very much doubt I will EVER be in a need to defend myself from an attacker.
>>1391155
And in closing:
I only do martial arts for fun and to keep fit. BJJ seems like more fun, less injury, more of a mental game than a physical one. And frankly, BJJ is a bigger thing, there are more outlets to enjoy it if you're not training there are blogs, and podcasts and youtube channels and online communities and all kinds of stuff to keep the fire burning. With judo there's training and maybe watching the olympics every 4 years.
>>1391155
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I'm actually the same height and weight as you and never took my small size into consideration.
>>1391167
No probs man. Where are you from? If you don't mind me asking.
>>1389620
>>1389661
There's nothing actually wrong with this, a purple or brown belt is basically a black belt in most other arts. It also depends on the coaches. 10 years in either Judo or BJJ will get you to brown or black, which is where you want to be if you want to compete with true "masters".
OP, go for BJJ. Judo is sadly dying, and freestyle judo isn't widespread yet. Getting proficient in BJJ before starting Judo, if it livens up again and goes freestyle you can have a much better upper-hand than if you start from Judo and go BJJ.
For now, too many fucking rules in Judo. Go to no-gi BJJ/wrestling classes as much as possible, and only consider the gi for competition and actual sport. That is if you want to have useful skills for real life. Also, take 3-6 months of boxing, learn the core skills, spar with a few people, and buy a punching bag for home use. Keeps you active, and as long as you have core boxing skills with BJJ getthefuckoutofthissituation skills, you're going to win 85% of 1 on 1 fights.
Buy a gun and you can make that 95%.
>>1391761
>Go to no-gi BJJ/wrestling classes as much as possible, and only consider the gi for competition and actual sport. That is if you want to have useful skills for real life.
This is something I never understood. As a blue belt that lives in an area where hoodies or heavy jackets are worn 80% of the year - gi is WAY more applicable for real life, street situations. Not that i'm going to be doing spider guard and collar chokes to people on the street, but just for the experience in having the friction of what i'm wearing play a role in the grappling seems like it would help a ton in a real fight.... if all I did was no gi (and i do a ton of nogi too), if i ever got in a fight in a winter coat i'd be fucked... i wouldn't be used to grappling/fighting in something so restrictive and thick - i would be a clumsy fuck, sure i might still win but there are tons of street fight vids where people grab eachothers clothes and punch - training in the gi gets you used to people trying to grab your clothes to manipulate you... and if you get in a fight with soemone in a hoodie or thicker (which is worn 80% of the year here), your opponent might as well be a gi...
but i guess if i lived in california i'd do pretty much no-gi because i'd almost never be in anything thicker than a tee shirt. and doing gi while living there wouldn't really benefit as much if I ever got in a fight
I just think this "no gi is more realistic" totally depends on where you live. Go tell someone that lives in russia that no gi is more realistic... not for them it's not.
but doing both is best and if you want to do mma of course no gi should be your #1
>>1391196
Vegas
>>1391155
>32 core throws
They teach you techniques, principles and so on, as well as allowing you to pass on an entire part - not just the part you happen to like or be good in. On top of that, your game may eventually develop to incorporate more of them due to various reasons.
>>1389245
try them both. If I could I would do both...
>>1390134
>I'm not good at something
>instead of getting better at it I'm going to neglect it as much as I can so I don't have to improve myself
You ain't gonna make it, bro
>>1389492
Kek
>>1392059
I understand what you're saying, obviously there's a reason all 32 are still there - but do those reasons align with my reasons/needs? Not really.
With regard to when I said unnecessary techniques I was thinking more of things like sasae tsurikomi ashi vs hiza guruma - the difference is placement of the foot at the knee or the ankle - at full speed you're likely to land your foot anywhere between those two points and achieve the same effect. It is so close to being the same throw, uses the same principles and actions, so what's the point?
The same could be said for ko soto gari vs de ashi harai vs okuri ashi harai.
Whatever. If people want to do judo, do judo. Just some of the shine as worn off it for me. I've got a reasonable toolbox of takedowns, against an untrained person I could defend myself well. I'm thinking about switching to BJJ for more mental stimulation. As I've said, I'm in it for fun and fitness. If I'm not having fun, what's the point?
>>1390134
>Personally I am in the position where I suck at Nagewaza and I am great at Newaza.
This is what every white belt thinks. The truth is it is much harder to become competent at throwing than ground work in the early to mid stages of training.
Try both gyms. The coaching is way more important than the art. Get ready to work your ass off either way. Try hard, keep at it, good luck.
>>1391785
My gym has gi BJJ monday, Wednesday, and Friday, then no-gi on tuesday and thursday, and striking on Monday and Wednesday. Also MMA class which throws everything together two or three times a week.
It's an overwhelming amount of classes at first, so I'm only doing gi BJJ to start with. But my package covers all classes by default and I'm really glad to have a nearby gym that does all this shit.
>>1389245
>Mfw my club trains both
>Mfw Judo x2, BJJ x3, MT x2, Sambo x1, every week
>>1392864
The problem here is that you are thinking about your own world, and not the footwork, or motion of your opponent. Yes, sasae and hiza are similar, but depending on both your movement and your opponent's movement in an actual match, you are going to get success from doing one and not the other because of the nuanced difference between the two.
People don't start getting the fine motor movement to consistently do the nuanced differences until about green belt, so most dojos will pass you to yellow if your hiza is a sasae or vice versa, but if you are a brown, you better have the fine tuned skill to hit the specific throw.
Most dojos start teaching some sort of seoi nage to begin with, and most will pass you to yellow during the test regardless of whether you hit ippon seoi nage, morote seoi nage or tsurikomi goshi. Basically the same throw, but difference elbow placement, and some fine-tuned differences that white belts won't be able to distinguish.
However, in a match, you go for ippon, your opponent blocks your hand, but you can still hit morote, and if your opponent blocked your elbow from crossing the chest, you hit tsurikomi goshi. Further, if your opponent's footwork prevents seoi nage, then you can still go for seoi otoshi.
But you don't understand the nuances that are happening so fast, so they feel the same to you. You need more time on the mat drilling your throws to learn the answer to your question.
>>1392864
>sasae tsurikomi ashi vs hiza guruma
They're principally different motions, relying on different principles to unbalance and throw. Simply put
>hiza guruma needs a diagonal pulldown to unbalance and throw, block is timed earlier because aimed at the rear knee
>sasae needs high pull into distance to unbalance, then a straight pulldown to throw, block is timed slightly later because aimed the front foot
All in all, coordination is quite different between the two, and if you are adept at landing either one, you won't be automatically good at the other one. There's a similar set of differences between ko soto gari, de ashi harai, and okuri ashi harai. Each has its own situation, and will work where the others fail. A trip is not a sweep. A sweep on a single leg needs a different angle than one on both legs.
Now, I totally get that you do it for mental stimulation, but I must point out you're discaring a great many things due to simply not bothering to understand them, or wrongfully presuming you understand them well enough to discard them. See >>1392968, even if you're not a white belt.
>>1399351
I get what you're saying. Totally. But what it comes down to for me is what I said before: do those reasons/needs align with mine? Not really. At this point my motivation to do the sport has dwindled and I don't see myself committing long term to mastery (for all of the reasons stated above and some others: age, lifestyle changes etc) so those subtle differences and applications are negligible to my practice. I have the basics, I feel comfortable with the basics, and I don't currently have the drive to commit to mastery of judo as I previously did. Maybe I'll try BJJ, find the same problems and decide to come back. Who knows? Maybe I'll take up marathon running instead. There's a strong chance I'm just a pussy, but basically at the end of the day I'm just looking to enjoy myself. If I'm not enjoying judo, I'll try something else, if I stop enjoying that, I'll try something else. And now I'm rambling.
>>1402380
Quit now. No need to try bjj, because you will just quit. You are experiencing the blue belt curse.
https://youtu.be/VrCSjT_5PN8
>>1389549
They're just belts, bruh. A Purple belt in BJJ is near-ish a Judo blackbelt in terms of mat time, I think.
>>1403949
have you fought one? Pretty sure purple belts are Olympic judo quality. Whole reason why judo made their gay rules to prevent BJJ from taking over and embarrassing them at their own style
>>1403957
That's pretty sad on Judo's part. It's a great art that deserves better than what it's gotten. I do BJJ myself, but Judo is really damn cool, and it irritates me that so much has been stripped out of it.
Especially the "no leg attacks" deal. What the fuck is that? Half of what I've been taught so far has involved attacking the legs. In both gi and no gi.
Judo really needs a splinter organization separate from the fucking kodokan. Olympic Judo is dead, but not all Judo needs to be Olympic Judo.
>>1403970
Yeah tell me about it and you can't bear hug which nerfs a lot of wrestling moves and practically if you do guard, they stand you up they limit so much what works on real life because they are afraid of losing.
>>1403957
>Pretty sure purple belts are Olympic judo quality.
Your joking, right?
>>1403972
It's silly to me that they don't incorporate a lot of BJJ's refinements into their ground game, and wrestling leg attacks. BJJ has changed radically with time as more shit gets incorporated, but Judo is changing by cutting shit out.
We learn a lot of throws and shit in our gi class that are likely ripped right out of Judo, and even a few in no-gi for getting people to the ground in the octagon.
>>1403974
Nope there's so much evidence on youtube of BJJ guys storming judo dojos and smoking them. A BJJ blue is like a 1st degree judo black belt a purple is about a 2nd degree. I am pretty sure to be in the olympics you only need your 2nd degree. So most BJJ purples in terms of mat time would destroy Olympic judofags.
>>1403982
>I am pretty sure to be in the olympics you only need your 2nd degree
This does not imply that every 2nd degree black belt is at the level of an Olympic Judoka. In only means you've put some time in and won some competitive matches.
>>1403982
>I saw on YouTube
You don't train either, yey claim to know what you are talking about.
>>1404023
i might not but there are plenty of people that have the same opinion as i do and there is so much evidence supporting our view. No one does judo its all about BJJ and wrestling. If judo was better it would be used more but its not
>>1404024
Thats because Judo wins by throwing, the thinking being if someone throws you on hard ground the fight is finished.
This of course is not decisive on mats, if mma was done on sidewalks they would all practice judo
>>1404038
you can't touch the legs in judo and judo relies on the uniform to do the moves. MMA and in the streets those jackets arent there so judo is nerfed by a lot, people do no gi bjj
there is no, no gi in judo.
>>1403702
At the risk of repeating myself, I'm only in it for fun and fitness. So what does it matter if I quit at blue belt? So what does it matter if I quit at white belt? Just because I take something up for a hobby doesn't automatically mean that I'm committed to it until I attain mastery or I've somehow failed. I'm a hobbyist. I don't train to compete in the UFC, I don't train so I can defend myself against an attacker (because I'm not deluded), I don't train because I think I'll find the meaning of life in the mystic teachings of the grandmasters of old. So why does it matter if I start and when I choose to finish?
I realise this answer is starting to sound like I'm salty but I'm genuinely not. I just don't understand why people are being so absolutist about martial arts. Does this apply to all sports? If I take up cycling and fail to race in the Tour de France, am I wasting my time?
>>1404024
A BJJ blue belt showed up to my dojo a few months ago. I am a judo black belt with no significant competitive medals to my record. He was about half a foot taller than I am, maybe twenty or thirty pounds heavier, and probably ten years younger (I am in my thirties). I embarrassed him in standing and ground stages of randori. He could not stay on his feet, he could not unbalance me, and he could not hold me in his guard.
You are full of shit.
>>1404024
judo is an olympic sport, so really high level judo players have aspirations outside of MMA. BJJ people don't have any such goals.
>>1389650
Did he die
>>1403970
>What the fuck is that? Half of what I've been taught so far has involved attacking the legs. In both gi and no gi.
Leg attacks are hard to pull off, and harder to counter in the gi. If you look back on older matches, most of the time they're attacking the legs it's a guy up on points who wants to just stall for 30 seconds.
The claim that the rule was changed because Judo players were getting beat by wrestlers is ridiculous, because just the opposite prompted the rule change: nobody was landing leg attacks.
>>1405092
ADCC's, World cup and world champs are pretty good feathers in the cap.
plus theres gi and no-gi
>>1390195
The Judo that Kano created, practiced and promoted was not the same as the current Judo mangled to be a more entertaining spectator sport.
>>1407118
judo is so boring to watch I rather watch sub grappling though good subs are better to watch then good "throws" and the throws in judo are nothing compare to original judo.
>>1407124
>I rather watch sub grappling
Okay, let me start by saying I like both, along with wrestling and pretty much anything martial. I think Sumo is awesome. But I have to say, I'd understand why people would feel Judo is more exciting with its focus on throws rather than watching the often extremely slow paced submission grappling, which is also full of things that make sense if you know what you're watching but just don't look terribly fighty like the buttscoot boogie. And sure you fight for grips in both, but to most people doing so standing just looks better than "two men lying on eachother playing with their hands".
>>1391761
>judo is dying
Any info to back that up?
It's never been bigger where I am and is only growing.
>>1407340
look at how popular BJJ is, and what is the most common grappling system in MMA? its BJJ and wrestling, no one does judo because of rules. a bunch of judo people quit judo once the rules were made and it prevents new people wanting to join because of the rules.
>>1407340
Not the guy that posted that, but I think worldwide (outside of its traditional strongholds - Japan, France, parts of Eastern Europe) its pretty safe to say its not growing. It might be chugging along steadily with participation numbers, it may have received a boost from Rousey's infamy (until she lost). But relative to BJJ it's numbers are dwindling. Where I am there are 3 judo schools and 3 BJJ schools. Each of the judo schools has max. 15 students, each of the BJJ schools has minimum 30 students.
I guess it comes down to what you consider growth. If inflation goes up 5% and your wages go up 3.8%, have your wages grown?
>>1402380
I'm not saying everyone is to obtain mastery, but if it all depends on enjoyment - and abandoning something the enjoyment is no longer there - then well, that's an excellent way to not getting anywhere in the long run. These things require some investment, as well as a willingness to pull yourself through plateaus. If you take up cycling, it's okay not to win the Tour de France. But it's a waste to dump the bike in a ditch and call a taxi because the terrain is a little more hilly than you like.
>>1403957
>Whole reason why judo made their gay rules to prevent BJJ from taking over and embarrassing them at their own style
Disagree, it's still easy enough to employ BJJ in the current Judo ruleset. Travis Stevens is an excellent example of this. It's just that BJJ is more often than not incredibly boring to watch, and that'd reflect poorly on viewer numbers, associated revenues, general popularity, which would displease the IOC, so the IJF complies by imposing restrictive rules in order to have a more viewer-oriented sport. Wrestling almost got the boot because it didn't.
>>1403974
Personal experience as I do both Judo and BJJ, and I've trained with a few Judoka who compete(d) internationally.
>average BJJ blue will submit average Judo shodan - but will get ragdolled obviously
>high level blue/purple belt in disguise submits average internationally competing Judoka given enough time
>extrapolating from this: international level purple belt will probably be able to submit a good number of Judo Olympians
Then again, I'm quite sure there's Olympians that will tear through any purple belt.
>>1404044
It's the gi that makes the difference. A sport developed in an environment with a gi will naturally be less directly appliccable in an environment without one. Judo doesn't purely rely on the gi though, as the vast majority can easily be modified to a no gi variation.
>>1407588
my judo coach (at my bjj school) is also a black belt in bjj and he's a special kind of scary.
he'll have an armbar locked in before you hit the ground
>Whole reason why judo made their gay rules to prevent BJJ from taking over and embarrassing them at their own style
i think it's more accurate to say wrestlers would just double leg plow them time and again
>>1404199
could it be that he came to learn judo and not show how tough he is and tap out everyone?
i'm a blue belt in bjj and i train with a few judo black belts who are also blue belts in bjj and they are great standing and pinning after they get throws off, but after that point we're pretty much on an even playing field.
>>1389245
do whichever is closest to your house, cheapest, has the better teachers and classmates. If you get into one, after a while you'll most likely want to cross-train a bit anyways.
>>1407603
>double leg plow
While wrestlers are obviously far more capable when it comes to double legging, the gi is a massive double leg brake. Singles are a far greater threat.
They're both the same thing at one point in time.
The Olympics fucked over judo and made them remove most of the ground aspect in order to make it more entertaining.
That's when judo and BJJ split
But they're the same thing
I'll just leave this here. I have more examples if you want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BErIY92RufI
>>1407588
>bike in ditch
Because nothing I learnt in judo will apply in BJJ...
>>1407758
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb3BbbKOdtw
>>1407798
Alright then. Instead of dumping the bike in a ditch, you take out the wheels, then dump it in a ditch. Because eventually, unless you really put a lot of effort into maintaining what you've learned, you'll either forget or be unable to consistently do what you've learned. BJJ's standing game only theoretically incorporates all of Judo. Little of it has survived to this day.
>>1407853
Look man, fuck it. This is how it is: 95% of my desire for change is based on the (realistic) fear that I'll have a knee blown out by some goober in randori and it'll ruin my career. Is judo worth that much to me? Fuck no. So I'm gonna go and roll around on the floor instead.
Now where's the bike?
>>1407887
This is only from observation, and I don't have any statistical data (would like to know if anyone's compared data so far) but if this is really about knees, then I can say that the rate of knee injuries appears to be very similar in BJJ and Judo. Oddly enough, if I ignore competitioners, it seems lower for casual Judo practitioners than for casual BJJ people.
Where the bike is eventually depends on you.
>>1408055
No way. Judo is way worse for knees. BJJ is worse for lower back and spooky skelington hands.
>>1407813
muh guard!
So who trains what and what's everyone's rank?
BJJ second stripe white here.
>>1407614
I dropped him immediately with a foot sweep. Following that, I allowed him to dictate he pace for the rest of the night. While I cannot claim to know what another person thinks, I can tell you I did not hurt him and he has never come back. Draw your own conclusions.
>>1409669
Also should add he was more than a little rough with our adult (read: old) beginners and our teenaged intermediates.
This be probably the best place to ask
I really like BJJ and want to learn it but I dont have any schools near me in the area. So I was wondering if there is anyway to learn at home. I watch videos on youtube but those can only get you so far so can anybody help
Thanks
>>1409659
Blue bjj, and nikyu in both judo and kyudo. Orange belt in ameridote. Currently training bjj.
>>1409683
Do you have a training partner, and are there any judo or sambo schools near you?
>>1409692
no i live in the middle of buttfuck no where; i do have roommate but i don't think i can talk him into training with me.
>>1409659
No stripe BJJ white belt.
Every time near the end of class I feel like I'm going to have to step off the mats to vomit. I've never done anything this hard, coming from being a sedentary couch potato. I also get no-gi and striking with the price of tuition, but 3 times a week gi is already enough to kill me. I'll have to add more training in gradually.
>>1409694
I ask because I've had two experiences with 'technical' blue belts that did the online academy.
The first is with a pair that came to the bjj place I train at, and they would get tapped the fuck out by even the white belts on the mat because they never got to apply it against someone that is just working for position and not going by the script. Didn't work for them.
On the other hand, there were some people that were training in a barn that would come to our judo dojo (different place than bjj) and roll with our ground randori once or twice a month while they were going through the online program. Once they got the 'tech' belt, they rolled with some people from the bjj dojo and were the same level as the blues there.
You can do it, but it depends on how often you get to roll with others to apply what you are learning.
>>1404044
Literally 90% of judo throws can be done without the gi. Name me one throw that doesnt have a nogi variant and I will name you three that do.
>>1409782
uchi mata or any of those throws that you kick your leg out or the monkey flip throw
>>1403957
You're whole post is wrong. If you think the average purple belt is on par with an olympic athlete you're a fucking retard to start.
Second, I've explained this a billion and one times but here I go again. THE REASON JUDO'S LEG GRAB RULE IS THE WAY IT IS is because it became part of the judo meta-game to score a yuko or waza-ari and then stall until time ran out. I dont agree with it, but thats why it is. It has nothing to do with catch, bjj, or sambo beating judo guys. Stop being retarded.
>>1409788
What the fuck is the monkey flip throw?
Also here's nogi uchi mata, retard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REpqMWj_ZmI
>>1409788
even in my judo class we throw uchi mata with hooks instead of grips. The grip is the "correct" way to do it when you are demonstrating, and then in reality you throw it with a hook because its tighter
tomoe nage can be done by gripping behind the head, I've done it for practice purposes but I get super sweaty and slippery so I personally wouldn't do it during a match without a grip
>>1409782
Not him but I always wondered if there is a nogi taiotoshi variant and if there is how do you apply it?
>>1410165
what would make taiotoshi hard to do without the gi?
>>1409788
Wrestlers sometimes do a wizer with their leg shot up in the air like an uchi mata so it can very easily be done with no gi
Things that can literally not be done with nogi are morote seonage or tomoe nage because they require that you grab clothing but there's ippon seoinage and many different sacrifice throw variants for nogi
>>1410173
You need to grab the collar and apply pressure with the forearm into the armpit.
It seems hard to do without the grip on the collar of the gi
Do you do underhook or collar tie for nogi?
>>1410177
i thought the main thing about tai otoshi was having your feet spread apart.
>>1410178
No the feet is just the end, the whole motion comes from the arms. It literally means"body drop". So you bring the guy up (with the forearm to the armpit) and you bring him straight down. The foot is just there to cause him to flip.
>>1410165
>>1410173
>>1410177
>>1410178
so it translates to body drop, and remember in judo, naming conventions are about principals and concepts
>>1410177
is talking about the classical set up, like all judo there are a dozen variants and gripping schemes to all moves, as long as you have the basic principal it doesn't matter how you grip. A popular set up I like to do is from a 2 on 1, my 2 hands gripped on the same side (either both on uke's arm, or one on the same side sleeve and lapel)
As long as you drop your body beneth uke's hips and adjust your legs you have tai otoshi
please refer to this video and look at the 0:09 second mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-RA8P-DY1g
In no gi, this can translate to you getting a 2 on 1 and then dropping in with your footwork for tai otoshi, if you refer to my webm, which is a no gi variant of tai otoshi.
Another popular no gi set up would be using a headlock grip. Karo Parrysian and Ronda Rousey have both used this variant in their MMA bouts.
>>1410186
also this thread sucks. so much misinformation
>>1410189
so if you look at that sambo set up, tori changes the direction of his koshi waza /hip toss, he has the grip on the hip and on the sleeve (but honestly in no gi it be a wrist grip)
so you can do tai otoshi combined, start with a hip toss, and uke is defending, adjust your feet and guide them over with the tai otoshi finish
>>1410192
wrestling also has their own variant of tai otoshi, this is one of the throws i teach my own athletes during the season and for the kids that stay with me and go into judo i pound this into their head.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiryTmtbNvY
Refer to the 3:00 min mark.
>>1410194
here's another no gi uchi mata.
>>1410186
So the best way to use taiotoshi in a nogi situation would be when you're fighting for wrist control rather than being in a clinch position like an over/under
Headlocks are too risky for nogi and I don't understand how you can do a taiotoshi from a headlock position
>>1409820
>>1410174
Gonna piggy back on these 2 post, so sutemi waza is the type of move that tomeo nage is, you don't see classical tomeo nage in no gi, but because of the the front headlock grip ,or people shooting shots you will see sutemi waza variants, such as these.
>>1410203
>>1410202
Both are viable (clinch and, then a blitzing wrist tie throw) if you look at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiryTmtbNvY
the wresting variant is from over under.
In MMA rule set, what Ronda and Karo both had a knack of doing was using a looping overhand right punch, it either hits flush and hurts their opponent, or misses, but what happens now is both have control of the head, and set up their offensive set, which included throws for tai otoshi, harai, osoto.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9CoR4HYmZg
>>1410194
That's a hip sag. There's no up/down motion like taiotoshi. It's just down. He just did across the back because the guy is taller than him
>>1410207
Former UFC MW champ's takedown defense was unorthodox and interesting to study because he prefered to use sutemi waza, rather then just sprawling.
>>1410209
I've heard of a hip sag and in my mind's eye i feel its a variant of tai otoshi. the principals are still there and even in gi there are a few variants of tai otoshi where you drop down from the hip, i feel that's how low hitting or clipping tai or seoi otoshis come into being .
>>1410214
I can't copy and paste everything but i alway found this blog useful for breakdowns, and he breakdowns a lot of the principals of tai otoshi
http://thedifficultway.blogspot.com/2011/05/tai-otoshi.html
I've played judo for the last year with a club at uni, but I'm planning to shift to BJJ when I move to a new city at the end of the year.
Partly because I'm a pussy and getting thrown hurts, partly because of all of the injuries I keep getting and partly because I just have more fun in newaza anyway.
Is the threat of boners an issue in bjj?
BJJ is better because it works against morbidly obese people, whereas Judo doesn't.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POJ2T023M4I
>>1409702
You're probably eating like shit.
I feel exactly the same way when I don't have a healthy lunch with a decent amount of carbs.
>>1410438
Do sumo wrestlers count?
https://youtu.be/Ls_zTtZCrt8
>>1410202
Tai otoshi requires space. If you are in a clinch, you are not in a good position to pull the throw off.
>>1410438
ashi sankaku garami
heh, did you think omoplatas were brazilian or something?
>>1410969
depends on your clinch, if you're hip to hip yeah its hard, but if you have over under its easier to create space with the underhook
>>1409782
I'd go to a no-gi Judo place in a heartbeat. Shit sounds awesome.
>>1410992
Do other judo places not do no gi on occasion?
I mean it's not often, but we still do it.
>>1410996
not sure i dont really train except i wrestle with my flatmates
From what i read around the internet though judo is so caught up with tradition they only wear gi
I really want to try tenth planet jujitsu because they are no gi and its more realistic for the streets
>>1410996
IDK. The only Judo around here is taught by the university. You have to either be a student and learn there, or go to the little academy that they run outside the school, which isn't nearly as good of a deal as the BJJ place I go to, surprisingly. I don't know if they do no-gi or not.
>>1411003
I've heard a lot of good and bad things about Tenth Planet. The most bad has been about how they do jack shit in terms of starting from standing, or what to do on your feet. We learn throws and takedowns from standing all the time in my BJJ place, some of it ripped right out of Judo because we're an MMA school with a focus on building a well-rounded set of cage skills. So we do gi BJJ, no-gi BJJ, striking, and wrestling. I'd be worried about learning in a place with zero emphasis on going from feet to ground.
I know it's a meme, but you will get your head stomped on if you try and go to the ground without taking your opponent there forcefully.
>>1410990
Over-under is fine. In retrospect, my use of the word clinch was not the best. People are in the habit of getting hit contact for there throws, but trying this with tai otoshi makes the throw difficult, if not impossible.
>>1410367
I totally get that.
judo is so much harder, I'm in a position where I look at bjj and confidently know I will eventually have a black belt a few years down the line even if it takes me until I'm 50 since its largely about just putting the time in.
I look at judo and don't think I will ever make it. I just can't take the falls anymore. I barely even go twice a month now, meanwhile I'm hitting bjj 3 times a week.
>>1411550
How old are you?
>>1411567
I'm 29, I know exactly what you mean about the falls. It's not "injury" it's just hard to recover from feeling so beat up all the time.
So at 32, if I go to an "Adult" judo class which says it's ages 14 and up, can I expect to look like a dumbass if I show up? Do you suppose it'll be a bunch of kids and me as the weird old guy?
>>1411588
yeah, and the thing is I actually get hurt at bjj most often. Last night we were doing some guard passing drills and the other guy came in hot and just fucking kneed me right in the back of the head, I had to go sit down for a while because I felt a little concussed.
That isn't a problem I have in judo, its just up and down over and over and that jarring impact is very psychologically troubling
>>1411592
Go and find out. But you'll probably find that's not the case. You'll likely be near the top of the age range, but not in a weird way. Although, as above, at 32 it's pretty tough stuff on the body so be prepared for that if you're really interested in starting.
>>1411592
Just go. I have a couple adult beginners in my club (in their 40's) and they are fine. We don't push them as hard or let our younger, more experienced players beat up on them because we know they have wake up in the morning for work. I started as a young adult (a couple weeks shy of 22), so I have a fond place in my heart for adult beginners.
>>1411592
My BJJ class has dudes in their 60's and teens who just got out of the child belts all on the mats together. Just go try it.
>>1411600
Lel, I can't even count the number of times I've been accidentally kneed, punched etc in judo.
The best ones are when you fuck up a tomoe nage and they land with their entire weight in their knee right into your nuts.
>>1411720
I'm adding this to my list of things to expect in Judo. I'm doing BJJ right now, but want to add Judo in the future.
So far I've got
>feeling like shit from repeated mat impacts
>broken limbs
>being crippled
>knee in nuts
>>1411003
Judofag here.
Don't get caught up in this new idea of no-gi being "more practical".
The fact of the matter is that people generally wear clothes, and the only situations when no-gi techniques are needed are either if they've nigged out and taken off their shirt or if you're competing in MMA.
It's much easier to learn no-gi with a foundation of gi stuff than the other way round.
I'm curious about the 10th planet stuff too though, because the BJJ club I'm looking at associates heavily with Jean Jacques Machado, who also taught Eddie Bravo. Obviously they're different schools, but there could still be a bit of crossover in their style.
>>1411738
Honestly, don't worry about the knees. Even with common stuff like uchimata you're still going to get hit in the nuts a bit, it's just part of the game.
The main thing that gets me in judo is just the psychological aspect of being thrown all of the time. Apparently it's a lot better in a well-equipped gym with sprung floors, but at my club the mats are just straight onto concrete.
>>1411744
I'm actually having fun getting thrown around in BJJ, but y'all do a lot more throwing in Judo so I can see how that would get tiresome. Apparently we're in the minority because BJJ doesn't usually include throws or breakfalls in class, but we do.
They aren't really hardcore, slam-and-cripple-your-ass throws, though, we mostly just learn slick little takedown throws. I'd really love to learn the kinds of throws that will fuck my opponent up, though.
>>1411720
I had this one kid I guess try to do utsuri goshi, except he just fell back after the lift and kept holding on to me, and drove his knee right into my back as I fell on top of him
>sorry bro, probably should of let that go
also the first black eye I've ever gotten in my life happened last month, guy just flat out headbutted me, I see pink and red splashing around on the gis ..who's bleeding?
walk past the mirror, oh shit
>>1411720
Uchimata to the nutsack is a classic. You can punch people in the face with kouchi if you really want to be a jerk.
>>1411592
My judo dojo has multiple new players over 40. The amount that it is jarring really depends on how well equipped the mats are, and how they teach breakfalls.
>>1411003
At my judo dojo we have to know all throws gi and no gi. How traditional it is depends on each individual dojo.
>>1412105
I train on a sprung floor and it's still not enough for me. I do wonder about my break fall technique...
>>1412121
my floor is tatami on quarter inch plywood over concrete
I train bjj and i feel beat up, my knees and elbows ache, and shoulders pop constantly when i rotate them. I guess im just a bit overtrained, going 4-5 times a week straight.
Would lifting weights help me with my popping shoulders and sore joints or just add on to the overtraining aspect?
>>1412258
I'm not an expert but I would tend to think that rehab/prehab style resistance exercises would be a better option than heavy resistance training.
>>1412265
Like bodyweight? I did yoga along with my bjj for a bit and i felt that it really helped me feel less aches and pains.
>>1412267
Even traditional bodyweight might be a bit much. I was thinking more like this:
http://www.grapplearts.com/shoulder-rehab-for-grapplers/
I know youre not injured but this stuff does as much to prevent as it does help in rehab. And if yoga helps then keep doing it.
>>1412121
We use tatami on an indoor basketball court and I am fine. I've knocked the wing it if people before, though, but I consider that more their fault.
>>1411744
IDK dude, I feel much more comfortable with the no-gi variants of the BJJ techniques we learn. I realize that people wear clothes, but they aren't going to be nearly as suited for manipulating as a gi. A gi is super tough, opens up easily, can be ripped right out of the belt, and is very thick and easy to grip.
It's just like, what if they aren't wearing something so easily manipulable?
Although I'm completely in agreement that it's easier to get into no-gi after gi. Gi is way easier for me to learn. Everyone is much less slippery.
>>1412267
take pretty light weights, like no more than 5 pounds. Or some of those elastic bands with the handles.
Go through the motions very gently and just extend slightly past where it starts to feel discomfort.
Do 10 reps in each direction, 3 times a day.
wala, physical therapy
>>1389245
...Please refrain from making threads like these. Neither one will make you better than the other, but you will be able to do different things.
Is this thread bait?
>>1407588
The average blue belt will submit a average judo shodan?
Literally what?
I'm not sure how great you think bjj is, and regardless of how great it actually is, you have to realize that 9/10 judo facilities also train newaza heavily, and I've been to 10 dojos over my 13 years of training. You're comparing someone who has been grappling for 5+ years to someone who has less than half that time.
And average purple belts submitting Olympians? Holy shit in my asshole, Olympians train as their full time career, and you think a random purple belt can submit someone in the peak of fitness and grappling?
Your head must be wrapped in your own colon for how far up your ass it is.
Holy shit.
>>1412273
This seems good, i'm going to try it. What kind of workouts can you do to strengthen the spine? Thats another area that i'm worried about injuring.
>>1407588
the fuck is this? I'm a bjj white belt and even I submit blue belts sometimes. Judo black belts completely wreck my shit
>>1412680
Learn to engage your transverse abdominus. Work on your core strength (do some research, don't just do sit ups). The trick isn't to strengthen your spine but to strengthen everything that supports it so it has to do less work.
>>1403957
Here he is in his natural environment, folks. A complete moron wildly speculating on the internet. Barring the fact that competitive experience, personal ambition and relevant technical ability vary even among BJJ blackbelts, to suggest that "BJJ purple belts' (all of them..?) are Olympic judo quality is a clear indicator that you have just about nothing to contribute to this topic.
The current rules of competitive/sport/olympic Judo are imposed upon the sport for, lets face it, entertainment purposes--Ippon Judo. There's no point in having two wrestling events, so putting a ban on leg based attacks in Judo further distances the sport from the freestyle event. The governing bodies of Judo have it in their best interest to comply with the OC to ensure it remains an Olympic event. If you happened to have followed Judo before this ban and continued after, it's hard to argue that it hasn't forced the evolution of techniques and dynamic movement more than ever before. Judo has always been a thinking mans sport and a raise in the level of technical judo is a direct result of the arm-to-leg attacks. It is my personal belief that the subsequent changes to kumi kata and stalling 'techniques' is pushing judo to new heights regarding tactics available to the players and their coaches/strategists.
These are gold medal contests featuring the old ruleset:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbFpcx6xJvg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFe2z6974oI
Had this been allowed to continue, high level judo may very well have been dominated by these techniques that make judo players look like wrestlers in pajamas. Who knows how long these two already similar sports would be featured as events had this been the case.
Old and new evidence of referees allowing newaza to continue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYXhlYQJQ2M&t=3m0s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_ROBSO_QEg
>>1413089
>Judo has always been a thinking mans sport and a raise in the level of technical judo is a direct result of the *ban on* arm-to-leg attacks.
Furthermore, there's nothing wrong with the techniques employed by the scoring judo players in the first two videos. They were smart and opportunistic to beat their opponents without giving a chance for counter-attack, but it would surely make it a hard argument to have two grappling events with prevalent leg grabs if this were allowed to continue.
My 2&1/2 cents
>>1389492
Train muay Thai, gym also does bjj. There does seem to be a fair few faggots training jew-jitsu. Still, I wouldn't say that to their faces.
>>1413096
If /asp/ had any real mod presence, I'd maybe encourage pruning of future "BJJ vs Judo" threads. It's only ever internet shit flinging. Not in regards to your post, of course, I'm just pointing out that this autistic argument has been repeated over and over again on this board a trillion times. It seems mostly like guys who don't train at all doing the arguing, too. This shit has to be explained to them every time.
In my BJJ gym, we do gi BJJ, no-gi BJJ, striking, and an MMA course. Sometimes Sambo guys come in and teach special lessons and show us cool shit, and Judo guys from the nearby university will also drop in. Everyone trains with everyone, none of this bullshit seems to exist outside of /asp/. There's all this false dichotomy between Judo and BJJ, when, in reality, they're two branches of the same tree with different focuses. Cross training is so common that I'm actually surprised when people don't do it if they're an upper belt in either art.
In regards to the OP, he should decide purely on which gym is better, and whether he's more interested in groundwork or throws. I'd say that Judo is probably the more comprehensive start point, since it starts on the feet every time, builds strength, and has more than enough groundwork to hold one's own against BJJ players. BJJ is like a comprehensive newaza course that pairs deliciously with a striking art, but a Judo player is going to toss you all over the mats until you learn to defend yourself from that kind of thing.
>>1413103
>There does seem to be a fair few faggots training jew-jitsu
It's the "in" thing. Hopefully they'll quit once they realize it's harder than it looks.
>>1413184
>encourage pruning of future "BJJ vs Judo" threads
Aside from a couple of shitposters who I suspect may just be wrestlefags trying to derail the thread and let it die. Most of this thread has been more like grapple general than vs and its been positive conversation.
Long live the thread!
What terminology do you guys use?
Morote gari or double-leg takedown?
Juji gatame or straight armbar?
Generally I tend to use judo terms for throws and BJJ terms for groundwork, just because that's easier for me.
>>1413930
Basically the same as you but for wrestling techniques I use wrestling terms like cross-face, single, double, half-nelson....
>>1389245
BJJ is Kosen Judo; its a fuller version of Judo.
>>1389620
Yeah the BJJ blue belt is like a black belt in other traditions. Would rather have a blue belt in BJJ than a black belt in any other tradition. Blue belt represents you can now teach like assistant teacher usually and purple means like legit teacher advanced like a Judo 3rd degree black belt.
>>1415826
Incorrect. Purple is equivalent to shodan.
>>1415820
>BJJ is Kosen Judo
You´re Stupid.
I think Tsunetane Oda idea that the Dan grades should be flexible was a Good idea.
So that the Dan is showing you current level of skill.
>>1416903
>Be 4th dan
>Hip gets fucked
>Can no longer fight
"Well, back to white for you!"
It'd be hilarious seeing every class get taught by a white belt.
>>1389492
>>1417140
This. Eventually all the best teachers would have white belts. You think guys like Billy Robinson could take even a beginner?
I mean, before he died?
