In order not to hinder those kind people in the HEMA thread, here's one to discuss everything about asian weaponry and styles that use them. It started with Hokushin Itto-ryu and japanese swordsmanship, but I guess we can talk about other asian styles too...
>>1372382
Get the fuck back in your cuckshed or I'll call the janny
>>1372385
Truly a quality post, thank you kind sir !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KhtfZGKL24
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72JqGzw654M
Here's two videos demonstrating the Keishicho kidachi kata, the Tokyo police set of kata that was prepared in the 1880's for the new police by reknowned kenjutsu experts from various koryu, among them Jikishinkage-ryu, Shindo Munen-ryu and Hokushin Itto-ryu. Can find again the list of the ten kata names and schools if anyone's interested...
>>1372382
Not really into asian MAs but I'll gladly bump and be part of any non-wrassling related discussion on /asp/.
I remember attending to a beginner course in something called Bujinkan or something as a teen and they were advertising that they do armed combat as well. The dissapointment was huge when we were told you don't get to even touch any training weapons until after 3 years. Apparently only one guy had stuck long enough for that and was just swinging his katana alone in one corner every lesson.
Not that I had any time for a new hobby but what are some asian sword MAs where you get straight to weapons?
>>1372391
Many Filipino systems (and other similar styles in that Southeast Asia/archipelago region) start you off with weapons before teaching you empty handed stuff.
What's that? Asian "martial arts"?
>>1372424
I don't think asians referred to their fighting styles and teachings as anything like "martial arts". Budo which would be the closest japanese term for that doesn't really signify anything "art-y" though there's certainly a "martial" part (bu-) in it. I guess "martial arts" is trying to look at asian stuff with a european mind, not that it's bad in itself mind you.
What's that btw ? Polish-like 17th century armor ?
>>1372391
Yeah well Bujinkan has a lot of... mixed views. I'm not that knowledgeable about the whole thing, but it appears to be even more random than other typical asian stuff like karate or taekwondo: you can find good classes, but they are just as common as the bad ones and mediocre ones constitute the most of them (apparently - take it with a grain of salt). They're suppose to teach a lot of different things that don't necessarily comes together easily, so some part of the training might be great (heard a lot of good things about their "cane" stuff), while others aren't trained as much and therefore... It's really a mixed bag for all I've heard, which can make it pretty problematic. There's a lot of discussion about the lineage aspects of it but that's another debate.
Japanese sword-wise, the typical division is between kendo and kenjutsu (as the modern definition categotize them at least). Kendo is more modern, more present and perhaps not what you're looking for, but well, here it is, lots of sparring and some kata/drills, sometimes iaïdo is done alongside (that is cutting from the scabbard, via kata mostly/only). Proper kenjutsu schools are a lot rarer and there is the whole lineage thing, but if you are in a big town, there's a chance to find some, even in the western world. There are various kenjutsu styles, so you might want to look at koryu.com for instance, as an introduction to them. They tend to be discreet and sometimes demanding, so there's that. I know that some aikido / aikibudo schools have sword and weapons curriculum based on a branch of the Katori Shinto-ryu, if you aren't in the lineage thing (as you look), they might be perfectly fine, and some have the weapon parts separate from the hand-to-hand stuff so that you don't have to do one if you just want the other. They are a bit more common.
Outside of japan, the filipino stuff is the obvious example, as stated earlier. Fairly different from the japanese, but just as interesting I guess.
>>1372455
I think Bujutsu is closer to Martial Arts.
>>1372455
>discussing semantics
kek
But yes, that is Polish 17th century husar armor. Top of the line product.
>>1372491
True, "Bu" could well be translated into "martial", "jutsu" into "arts" takes a bit more of a stretch, but that ain't exactly false either. Talk for the talk from my part I guess.
>>1372513
>But yes, that is Polish 17th century husar armor. Top of the line product.
OK, I didn't lost it all then, it certainly is fancy, the guy's face and the roughed up look make it looks even better imho.
>discussing semantics
>kek
It's never wrong to try to reply seriously even to a potentially non-serious comment. Would you have preferred something along the lines of "Go fuck yourself in your own thread cuckmaggot, perhaps you need a crane to get off your high horse with that ridiculous piece of rusty shit you call an armor ?".
Anyway it would have betray my state of mind which is, I hope, as open to asian stuff that it is at european ones.
>>1372424
I guess its best to talk about marital arts using accurate cultural words
>>1372388
Of all the (few) vids I've seen of Keishi-ryu, I've liked this one the most. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88th__dNx1U
The guys performing seem to have less of a "kendo federation" feeling in their technique. The newer vids have some subtle elements that give the impression of two kendoka just performing the forms.
>>1372658
And of course even that vid has two kendoka performing, what I mean is it's less like they're just going through the motions with kendo mechanics, and more like actually doing the kata closer to their original forms.
>>1372658
>>1372661
Ah yes agreed, too bad the quality of the vid is pretty awful...
As to the impression, it's hard to tell, you would have to compare each kata of this set to the original I guess, this particular vid does "feel" better, I'll give you that.
Development of kenjutsu and other koryu schools right after 1868 is very interesting and I guess the creation of this set of techniques is a nice example of what was going on for some of those schools in this moment of time.
>>1372661
Given the fact that its done as an addendem to kendo thats not suprising.
I dont think the kendo flavor is as much a problem as the fact many kendoka tend to take a very mechanical approach to kata compared to many koryu.
>>1372382
Wat if sum1 just shoots u
So this is like virginduel for weeks, right?
>>1372768
Virginduel for weebs, I meant. Autocorrect.
>>1372513
>even more semantics
tl;dr
>>1372754
It's not an uncommon technique to use a takedown against someone armed with a weapon, but then it's quite a desperate tactic, even though it's one of the only few that would work...
I guess if you have the weapon, just go for a strike to the arms or head, a cut rather than a thrust as it will be harder to dodge while shooting for the takedown.
If you are the one with the weapon, especially a middle-lenght weapon like a sword, fighting someone unharmed, even if s/he is a competent wrestler shouldn't be a problem really.
You can't "just" shoot a takedown against someone with a sword.
>>1372779
Nigga please if sum1 has a gun theres nothing ur lil sword can do.
You guys should be practising with guns if u really r serious about wanting to protect yourselves
>>1372799
Kek
>>1372382
Since we have a few sword guys here, what do you guys think of habiki gekiken?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNsS_VW5Zhw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNTZqON0aPQ
I respect what they are doing but I am not blown away by it
>>1373850
I would be interested in hearing hemabros opinion as well
>>1373850
>>1374015
Honestly, it looks pretty much like HEMA longsword, likely because there are only so many ways to swing a double handed sword after all.
For the fights, you can see that the fighters are trained, they use proper footwork, they maintain their distance, they 'smell' the danger. However, you can also see that they have not reached their peak yet, they are only able to pull a limited amount of techniques. Thats a common thing, as soon as you got a non cooperative opponent, a pressure situation like a big tournament, and adrenaline flowing. Suddenly, you do not remember most of the things Sensei taught you, and you are back to basic techniques. They often just stand there in the middle guard and think about how they can use one of three different attacks, something you also often see with mid level HEMA students. There are no feints, no parry riposte, no changing of the guard and attacking to a different opening, not much variation.
A top level fighter, regardless of heritage, would take advantage of that, standing still for 1-2 seconds in the mid guard and doing nothing but trying to hold the attack line will make you loose a fight. Drill harder, be able to pull more techniques under pressure without the need to think about them, bring in more variation, have fight intelligence. This is hard to teach, and only some disciples will ever reach that level.
In short, it is a joy to see and the setup is on par with HEMA steel sparring, the techniques used strongly resemble those used on the other side of the planet, and the shortcomings of the fighters are the same that we also experience.
On a side note, what do I need to to do to have a dance with those gents? I'd love to match my metal against them. No need to do it public, just a private lesson would be enough for me.
>>1374580
There are a few in the US but I forget the names. there associated with a branch of toyama ryu. There should be information on ebudo.
toyama ryu itself is very focused on basic techniques. it was designed for army officers and is not really as comprehensive as older sword arts. It was assumed the practitioner would know kendo and bayonet fencing.
There is another video I saw were their better, but its at the end of a long video of a toyama ryu embu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NBg_4Z8nFo
and an article on it with a iai and koryu guy giving his thoughts, respectful but not blown away.
>>1372382
ono ha and hokushin itto ryu have been making a big effort to penetrate in the west. the new soke of hokushin itto ryu is even a white guy from Europe.
I heard some people got upset when toda ha boku ryu made a westerner their interrum leader so that must be making some waves over there
>>1375569
I've actually been thinking about joining their school that the new german soke leads, it's like right next door
Do these serious, legit koryu schools take up complete martial arts beginners, or should I get some basic training elsewhere first?
They're also doing Naginata and are quite heavy on sparring, which is exactly what I'd want
>>1375569
>I can sit proper Japanese style in midair motherfucker
>>1375651
>>1375651
Probably, some koryu are very strict in that regard but these days interest is low enough that a warm body and a willingness to train is usually enough.
There are exceptions, for instance ellis amdur insists you have at least six months of body to body sport grappling before you join his araki ryu, but he's very picky about students and has said he doesn't even particularly like to teach. Most koryu are not like that, at least not anymore.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKh5ac4Fk80
Are there any videos of proper armed asian MA sparring? Would love to see it in action
Can you faggots not see that we're trying to revel in the total destruction of a manlet dweeb. You should be happy about this, it means less shitposts.
>>1376168
Nice neckbeard.
>>1376164
shinai are what they used during the edo period and many swordsmen of the bakumatsu used them, so they are properly armed.
and heck people had duels and challenge matches with bokken too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU0k3nwe32c&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_14oZa1Y70
>>1373850
One of the issue would be that habiki gekiken isn't "historical", though sparring with bokken and shinai is, so I doubt it'll take on anything but gendai budo and occasional practitioner that want to try it (some Mugaï-ryu people participate alongside Toyama-ryu) - not that there's anything wrong with gendai budo mind you, just that most sword arts aren't. Now I fail to see how it's a steap ahead of typical gekiken done with shinai and bogu, there's nothing especially wrong with it per se, but it's hard not to see it as some kind of westernization of the practice in the same time.
As you said, it's certainly respectable, they try new things, that's commendable, but yeah not blown away.
This especially as it seems that despite having more "anything goes" rules, the prevalence is still to both fighters getting in chudan and going for the wrists/forearms cuts or torse thrusts (not that it's bad technique or strategy in itself). One of the videos, they both struck each other in the hands many times yet no one goes back in hasso or gedan, it's puzzling.
When you compare it to some "hard" shinai keiko, habiki gekiken just looks like reinventing the wheel, with more expensive equipment.
>>1374922
>and an article on it with a iai and koryu guy giving his thoughts
Where is this particular article ?
>>1376164
Many filipino styles do sparring, it shouldn't be too hard to find. As for japanese ones, as posted, why would shinai keiko not be proper sparring?
>>1376941
The idea (at least on the HEMA side) is that steel blunts are closer to the real thing than shinai, wood or plastic (all three are still used AFAIK, but shinai in HEMA are pretty much a footnote, wood seems to be popular as a cheap beginner alternative and plastic is either used for that or is all some clubs use).
Now i don't know what kind of rules they use, i'd assume they'd take the chance to not use kendo rules or they wouldn't need so much protection.
The fact they stick to chudan might be because they also do kendo or more kendo style gekiken. I would hope doing this would bring most if not all of the forgotten guards into play.
Also i don't know what they use for swords, with Japanese law being what it is i'd worry they might use aluminium which is horrible.
>>1376944
And maybe the issue is trying to judge asian sword arts by how the western sword arts are done? Maybe the aim of sparring isn't strictly the same, and therefore, shinai is enough here but would be insufficient there? As I said, thinking that HEMA-like sparring is "proper sparring" is ridiculous, sparring is just another form of training, not actual mock-up fights, or I'd even dare say you're doing it wrong. I think that most people in Japan gave up actual sword fighting, and this is a country that still taught and fought with swords not so long ago (and some veterans who did it are still out there), japanese sword styles aren't (mostly) about actually becoming a sword fighter, why the hell would you want to to begin with? At some level, steel sparring grows to be thought like "real fighting", but it's really not, it's childish to think it could be and I'd say it's dangerous to think it should be such a thing.
And about chudan, it should be pointed out that in most JSA, it's a much more central guard (pun intended) than say Fiore's posta breve. It's not crude technique to use chudan and it's most certainly because of the prevalence of kendo, no doubt. I just think it's a shame that they stick to it so much and don't try to go for the more original stuff, since "it's just sparring" after all. The very fact they don't go in hasso or gedan after being whacked in the hands over and over is just weird to me... And even though Toyama-ryu is all about basics, they still have at least the 5 major guards.
>>1376948
Nobody (or at least nobody respected in HEMA) is saying steel sparring is a real fight. Just that it's closer. At the very least the tool is closer. Blunt steel on blunt steel does not feel the same as sharp steel on sharp steel, but it's certainly closer than anything else. I know JSA don't place as much emphasis on that, but it's certainly still there. The shape and weight are also much closer.
I can't see how using a more sword like tool would be bad for preserving sword techniques, regardless of what use you'll give them.
>>1376957
>Nobody (or at least nobody respected in HEMA) is saying steel sparring is a real fight.
It is definitely more fun.
>>1376957
>I can't see how using a more sword like tool would be bad for preserving sword techniques.
The thing is you don't preserve sword techniques via sparring but kata.
Besides, as I said, I can't see why you would want your training exercises to be close to a real fight (something it will never ever be), and that would be the real point, using "closer tools" is probably commendable but ultimately it is rendered necessary only by how you envision training.
And that would be one differences, it looks like many people do HEMA to know how to fight with a sword more than to reconstruct ancient techniques. The japanese are lucky enough to have living lineages and living people with actual experiences of how terrifying actual group sword fights are, I guess they aren't for a large part, as eager to become "better sword fighters" than a lot of HEMA people.
Then again, I probably sound overly bitter or dismissive and that really ain't my goal, you'll find many people starting JSA to know how to swordfight, I don't think they stay very long though. Likewise, I don't want to diss HEMA or the way it's done, I really have nothing against it, quite the contrary.
I just found the idea that you should practice JSA like HEMA isn't that grand, they are close things, but not that close to be identical in goals, motives, identities and ways of being done.
I find that regarding JSA, westerners used to love them, then they became overly critical (sometimes because they trapped themselves into a false idea of what they are), then they looked at them anew with a more sensible eye, then they wanted them to be more like what they were doing with their own sword arts. It just seems to be another version of "the good way is our way, why don't they see it and why don't they do it like us?".
>>1376970
To be fair, the Japanese traditionally always used bamboo Shinai and wooden Bokken for training, while Europeans used mostly steel, be it Feder training Rapier or Saber, with the exception of wooden/leather Dussacks.
So everything is as it always was and should be.
>>1376970
I just can't help but think being a better swordfighter would help you really understand what's going on in kata, and for that getting as close to a fight as you can would seem an important training tool.
Also i have nothing against JSA. Only envy about the living tradition.
I've considered starting them, i have Katori Shinto Ryu reasonably near, but i don't think i could give them enough commitment or that i could take a good bit of their ritual seriously enough, so at least for now i'm going to pass.
>>1376981
>So everything is as it always was and should be.
My thoughts exactly, though Europeans did use singlestick as sabres, wooden wasters as well. But yeah, steel feder and spada da marra were used when japan mostly turned to leather or wooden implements.
>>1376984
Funny thing, I just found a talk about Senese saying that they are four situations where you need to fence: a friendly bout, a serious competitive bout, a duel, an attack on the street. Apparently, he says that each situation should be trained differently as they don't require the same fencing.
I'm not convinced that sparring is/was imperative in order to become a better swordfighter. To me, a sparring will always be too far away of a real fight to be close "enough". It's cool and it can be a very useful training, but it's not imperative in order to understand a sword fighting system (to me at least). Yet then again, the whole living lineage stuff changes a lot things between JSA and HEMA.
About the Katori ritual and etiquette, it could well depend on the dojo and of the branch they teach (there are several branches in this ryuha and just as much disputes about them). Not all go through the keppan and all, though they might be call "not the real deal" because of that, but it's another debate.
Then again, if you don't think you have enough time or commitment, that's all fair.
>>1372382
>be HEMA bro
>tfw no HAMA bro to spar and discuss similarities with
;_;
Reminder that the japanese switched to european / western weapons and techniques as soon as they got in contact with them because they're superior
>>1377152
If by European weapons you mean guns, they never adopted European style spears or swords.
>>1376948
My stance is a little different from yours. I agree that sparring is not a real sword fight, but it is a simulacrum of a sword fight, or a certain kind of sword fight, and if your going to do it its useful to use realistic equipment.
On the other hand I dont think that someone training with steel blunts a protective armor is necessarily going to be better than someone who uses shinai.
I also question the idea that Japanese sword arts are not about learning to be a sword fighter, at least at their most basic level, that is what they are, Toby Threadgill for instance, talked about how his teacher was covered in scars from live blade cuts.
though there are often "higher" values involved, if you cant actually use a sword I dont think you have much business talking about such things.
This is the article I was talking about
http://www.budojapan.com/special-article/toyama-ryu-iaido-studying-reality/
>>1377152
>not completely true
>>1377014
The one i have nearby calls itself Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu. I have no idea about the differences between the branches, so any info on that would be appreciated. Even if i don't end up joining i find it interesting.
Looking for any instructional vids for the basics of Japanese swordsmanship, and ones that demonstrate counters. Does anyone have any?
>>1377743
>>1377743
The mainline is under Otake, they are also the most conservative, students are expected to take a blood oath and follow a strict set of rules. There are only a few authorized instructors sprinkled around the world. They are also very very well respected.
Next is the Sugino branch, they are kinda legit now, but they were separated for while.(its really complicated) Their branch is pretty liberal, and they've spread themselves out alot more.
There is also the Noda ha branch. They are also very small. They are separate from the mainline, but they date back far enough to be legit. They train with longer weapons and are most similar to the Otake (mainline) branch. As far as I know one of the leaders of the branch now is either American or European, but they are very private so their is not a lot of information
There are several other lines that I believe are all break away students of Otake. Some of them are supposedly very good but the owner (soke) of the art my not view them or their students as legitimate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9w1QpLdXns
Otake
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_v-0UL9cs4
Sugino
https://vimeo.com/119684933
Noda
>>1377903
There are some iaido and kendo basic instructional videos on youtube. and some in depth demonstrations but nothing you should be trying to learn from unless you have a teacher
>>1377453
>Linear stance
Interdasting...
Did the Japanese ever use sabres?
And if they did, was it a synthesis of their martial heritage and Western doctrine?
And how come the Portuguese never fenced against them?
>I REALLY want to do a demo of Destreza/Side-Sword at Dejima, then it vs. ryu
>>1378900
And Dutch rapier...
>fug
>>1378900
They used a Japanese blade mounted into a saber mount called a kyo gunto. the techniques resembles oa combination of saber and more traditional Japanese swordsmanship.
Some hema guys recreated some of the stuff from manuals
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHyGA2k4lu8
It was eventually abandoned for more traditional Japanese sword mountings and techniques which still survive.
early on the Japanese military was eager to adopt anything western but the pulled back when it came to melee fighting and started adapting native techniques to military sword and bayonet.
>>1378894
That guy killed two people in a sword fight and was undefeated in challenge matches with wooden weapons.
>>1377152
Whose japanese and when ? Certainly not in the Sengoku Jidai as they keep using japanese melee weapons and armors. They took part european kit here and there plus guns but that's all really.
After the Meiji revolution, the police still used japanese weapons and techniques, as illustrated by the damn kata posted in the first posts, the army issued the kyu-gunto which was changed pretty darn fast when they realized nobody liked them. They tried with the french bayonet method before coming up with their own version.
They changed their techniques because they "thought" it was superior, they were quick to revert back to japanese stuff or a mix of both though.
>>1377453
>My stance is a little different from yours.
I thought you were talking about Kunii Zenya's Tutta Porta di Ferro... joke aside, I wouldn't disagree that much about what you said, it would be nitpicking at that point. Thanks for the article.
>>1377743
What this person>>1377985 nicely said. Basically, you should check the Otake-ha dojo, there are like less than ten authorized in the World (Seattle, USA; France; Vietnam - those I'm sure). If it's not an Otake-ha dojo, it's most certainly a Sugino-ha one. As stated, it's pretty complicated, because the soke isn't an instructor and because they obviously mostly keep this quarrels inside. If you're not big on koryu politics, they should be as good as another one really.
>>1377985
I think the first pair in the Otake video has the best looking kata i've seen so far.
>>1379009
>>1379009
Well the correct name nowadays (it changed along the centuries) for this ryuha is indeed "Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu", which means something like "first transmitted heavenly shinto school of katori", because as in most sword schools, a religious illumination is what motivated the founder to start one. Katori is the name of the place and of the temple (Katori jingu) that is linked to the school and since basically the only ryuha connected to the katori shrine is this school, it's usually shortened as either Katori or Katori Shinto-ryu or sometimes TSKSR. Now a branch of a school is usually named "name_of_the_guy-ha". So the Sugino-ha is the branch from Yoshio Sugino, Otake-ha is the one from Risuke Otake.
As for the dojo, brief research but it looks like it will be the Sugino branch, if it's the Shoshinkan dojo it's very clearly Sugino-ha.
>>1372382
Can FMA practioners join in? We have sword work.
>>1379024
Yes that's the one. We also seem to have Niten Ichi ryu of the Miyagawa Morito side, though the dojo seems to be lost in some poorly communicated small town.
Since you mentioned religious illumination, i'd heard some schools are more Buddhist and treat the weapons like tools, while others are more Shintoist and have the whole bowing to the sword and such. Is that true? I've tried googling a bit but i can't seem to find anything about it.
>>1379035
I don't know a lot about Niten Ichi-ryu, would be unable to inform you...
On the other issue, you just step on a massive pile of rats. In Japan, the buddhist and shintoist traditions are mixed together so that it can be hard to have a clear cut image. Good example is that the TSKSR has both a buddhist figure (Marishiten) and a shintoist figure (can't remember the super long name sorry) as patron deity, so it can be a bit mind-boggling sometimes. You ask a question and it's like "why are we doing things like that ? - Because in buddhist tradition, it's typically like that - So why do we do this like that then ? - because in the shintoist tradition it's done like that". There is no problem in the syncretism of traditions. Now mind you, religious artefacts are mostly small things you won't even know are religion-based and aren't treated spiritually (starting to the left/right side), the etiquette is only very formal in public demonstrations.
In my dojo, there is a small bow to the sword, but you do it while standing, by your own and it takes like 1sec while the others are chatting waiting for everybody to come up. The proper bow to the teachers and the salle takes a bit more time, as usual, though it can be done fastly depending on the teacher...
Most of the thing will be depending on the teacher really.
>>1379029
I see no reason why not, I tried to imply it in the original post, poorly it seems.
>>1377152
WOW someone hasn't seen The Last Samurai...
>>1379029
Sure! be great to have multiple perspectives and arts.
I heard a story that Donn Draeger was once tracking through Philippines with some shinto muso ryu guys. he said, through a translator that he would love to some fma guys that he would love to see there stuff and in exchange they would show them shinto muso ryu.
The room went dead silent. apparently the translator had accidentally challenged them to a duel.
>>1377985
The source I have gives these people as the only ones in western countries who have teaching permit in mainline under Otake:
Phil Relnick, USA
Michael Jay, England
Adam Lancashire, England
Francisco Comeron, Spain
Luisa Raini, Italia
Stanislav Loukianov, Russia
Jean Paul Blond, France
Erik Louw, Holland
Charles Louw, South Africa
Kai Koskinen, Finland
Jeffrey Balmer, Ireland
These all come from Kai Koskinen's koryu.fi site, and what I've heard of the man, he goes to train once a year to Otake's place. Never actually bothered to check if he was real deal.
>>1379166
As a hisotry major that film always triggered me. The samurai come riding out as if its the 1300's Saigo's men only resorted to swords when they ran out of gun powder.
Its true that during the bakumatsu many samurai were traditionally armed, but once western rifles became available they switched to those.
>>1379791
I thought the same thing but they specifically state that only Katsumoto's clan deliberately eschews guns
>>1381222
who states this? the movie?
>>1379473
He's real deal. Too bad, since he's a huge asshole too. Makes life difficult for everyone in his sphere of influence, though he probably can behave well enough when in Japan.
And Balmer seems like a clown for all I've seen. Otake has relaxed the rules on membership and teaching in the recent years, but I do wonder if it's been for the best. Still, the list is legit as far as I know and those are all official representatives.
>>1381309
You talk like you know these people. may I ask if your a member? or are you going by reputation
>>1381326
The Nordic koryu scene is not too big so I've met the guy enough times and heard a lot more from others. I'm not a member of TSKSR.
I've seen self-promoting videos of Balmer that are somewhat questionable in their content (videos of clearly private training sessions with Otake made public, stupid ninjer-level stunts and less than impressive technique).
>>1379473
since were on the subject of katori there are a few documentaries
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRfQjj8ltEg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0mo4CR7qJk
>>1382457
>baka burger gaijin with retarded child raping grorious martial art
shamefru
>>1372421
I would like to know more about fma
pic is a display of rochin, short swords and spears and shields from Okinawa
>>1383633
>>1383633
What do you want to know about it?
I don't formerly train in FMA, but my HEMA coach comes from an FMA background and has shown me some stuff. I also know a few kali/escrima teachers+practicioners.
>>1385484
Well I mean I know how koryu teach, and I know how hema teaches, I have some ideas about cma and Okinawan stuff but that might be inaccurate, but I dont know how the real traditional (and modern) kali arnis etc is taught and practiced.
>>1385494
I'm far from an authority. All I know is what I've been told and read, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
As I understand it, there's a lot of family systems. It's not uncommon to hear someone who learned from their uncle or somebody's uncle in their garage or whatever.
Pragmatism seems to be their chief concern. Perhaps as a result, you don't get as many sticklers for tradition, i.e. the "do this move exactly the way I showed it as shown to me by my master" thing you see in other Japanese/Chinese martial arts.
While there wasn't exactly a dueling culture, in the olden days it seems it wasn't uncommon for masters to challenge other masters to see if they knew their shit or not.
As mentioned above, some (perhaps many) systems taught weapons before empty hand stuff as the use of weapons would inform the use of empty hands. Instead of doing a block with your stick, you'd do it with your forearm or instead of a knife stab, you'd throw a punch for example. I theorize that it goes back to the pragmatism. If you're fighting in a life or death scenario, it's probably a guy with a weapon.
Like many traditional martial arts, there are people who are criticized for getting too fancy and straying too far from reality.
Random musings:
-slashing seems to be preferred, though thrusts are very common (and it might vary depending on the art)
-rattan sticks are the most common training implement, though hardwood sticks/trainer blades and steel are used too
-paired weapons seem to work a little differently than western arts. Alternating the weapons used to attack with and simultaneous attacks seem to be the norm wheras something like rapier and dagger is more single tempo
-rattan sticks have a pleasant incense smell when struck together
-there's some Spanish influence as you'd expect
-more nimble weapons seem to be preferred. You don't see a lot of two handed weapons.
>>1385628
yeah their swordsmanship seems to be somewhat unique with all the double welding. Lots of knive stuff too.
there are a lot of westerners practicing it in some form or another but we dont hear as much about it. A real pity since it seems to be as practical as any other respected blade art
>>1385628
>-there's some Spanish influence as you'd expect
Destreza vs. FMA when?
>>1385693
I suspect that if a hema guy showed up at a dog brothers thing they would find a challenger.
>>1385694
I'm not sure hot steel vs rattan would work...
>>1385628
>there's some Spanish influence as you'd expect
Honestly besides ekrima coming from the Spanish esgrima (fencing) i have a hard time finding similarities. Perhaps to later saber systems? I'm not sure if Spanish saber kept sidesteps for longer while the rest became pretty much linear.
It's certainly nothing like Destreza though.
>>1385799
>I'm not sure hot steel vs rattan would work...
Then bring a nylon waster and some extra gear or something
>>1386140
I've never seen a nylon rapier so far. I guess the closest is the Blackfencer sidesword.
>>1385628
I would really like to see some (good) FMA stuff dont with live blades.
From what Ive seen their teaching isn't based on forms or plays but on drills? correct?
>>1386757
>isn't based on forms or plays but on drills
What's the difference between the three ? and yes it's a genuine question.
>>1386779
I say plays because I dont remember what hema people typically call their forms.
a form is a form of drill if were being technical but from what Ive seen FMA drills tend to be structured quite differently.
>>1386791
I think "plays" is the usual term in HEMA, i think it might be from Fiore, where techniques start with something like "This is the first play of the close game where you kick him in the nuts."
>>1386810
Same same in German.
>>1386810
>"This is the first play of the close game where you kick him in the nuts."
Based Italian Master[race].
>>1386791
>>1386810
>>1386895
To me, plays, kata, forms, drills those are all the same: a sequence of moves design to highlight one or multiple specific technique(s). They work mainly through repetition and can be expanded with experience and new interpretations.
I never really understand when people make a difference between them. Now, depending on the martial art, it's true that the way they're trained can be different, because not all the martial art have the same context of development and societal use, some are more "martial" than others for starters (we don't study sword fighting for the same reason than our ancestors for instance). This will maybe change the way they are use, but at their core, forms, plays in HEMA, kata in kenjutsu, sabre drills, those are all the same training implement to me, be them solo or paired (or with even more people).
When I look at Fiore's plays, I have trouble seeing how different they are than techniques I have been taught in JSA, at a training level I mean, it's all the same idea of technique/counter-technique, etc...
>>1387756
"In this way, I would destroy your testicles with a hard knee, so that no strength will be present in the heart."
It's almost like pottery...
One of the best grappling play is still the counter to the thumbs in the eyes... which is to put your thumbs in HIS eyes.
Fiore in general is pretty based to be honest.
>>1387758
For Japanese kata the word "play" would be problematic, since the kata is not necessarily a straight story or scenario, they often dont make sense when looked at that way.
There principle based rather than pure techniques.
Though it would not be hard to believe that Fiore's stuff is similar
>>1388359
Of course the point isn't to translate the word kata or play in the other language but rather to say that both of those words refer to a training implement that is roughly the same, used for the same purpose. A japanese koryu kata would be different to say a Fiore's play (in execution, not talking about a specific technique), but they would also be different than a judo kata for instance, it isn't that important in that regard.
Besides, principle based vs pure techniques, it's not always that obvious. Some HEMA stuff could well be principle based, especially in german longsword, and some kata are really purely technical (if he does this, you can do this and move on to this - do this to entice him to counter like that so you can counter it yourself), some kata are very practical, some are more ideal configuration for a particular technique, but that's true in some HEMA styles as well.
My point really is that, looking at Fiore's play since we are it, I find it much closer to japanese kata than say sparring, which is a different training exercise.
When I look at sabre drills or the meyer square, I can compare it easily to such drills used in some koryu kenjutsu. In some koryu, drills are done in a kata (before the actual technique, there are some moves that seems useless, but are in fact there to be drilled), it can be pervasive in some styles.
To me a drill is more about training blows, while plays, kata, forms are more about training a likely scenario or an ideal scenario to illuminate the key use of a particular movement.
I don't intend to go for semantic comparison, but more practical comparison regarding how you train people into swordsmanship.
>>1388637
To me a drill is more about training blows, while plays, kata, forms are more about training a likely scenario or an ideal scenario to illuminate the key use of a particular movement.
This is close to what I was trying to get at in my first post. FMA seems to do more of the former rather than the latter
>>1388637
>>1388359
>>1387758
On that subject I dug up this old article on the similarities
http://ejmas.com/proceedings/GSJSA05ham.html
He makes an interesting point that living tradtions of single stick do not used etudes while hema reconstructers do.
my quibble with the article would be that during the edo period, the japanese were not as rigid with preserving kata as now. They would create new ones or get rid of old ones as necessity or fashion dictated. though they didnt usually make up a whole new sets every generation
I also think it is interesting that the emphasis on kata/etudes seem to decline in both cultures as real sword fighting became less relevant
>>1372382
excellent hokkushin itto ryu demonstration
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dpk9qYr370k
>>1372385
What?
>>1372784
I don't think anybody does HEMA or Kenjutsu for self defense, bruh.
>>1395752
dont respond to trolls
