Are soft martial arts bullshit? Why does no one in the UFC use soft martial arts?
>>1198741
>Why does no one in the UFC use soft martial arts?
Because they're too deadly for the ring.
the only martials worth knowing are all used in UFC, back in the old days you could use karate and taekwondo, but now these days you will take 1 or 2 moves from it and you wont need to train them.
brazilian juijitsu
muay thai
wrestling
judo
boxing
wrestling
sambo
kick boxing
these are the only things worth knowing, as i said you could take a kick or some thing from karate but, there is no reason you would ever need to train other martial arts.
>>1198741
Not really, but many of them dont put in the hard training necessary to compete, an many of them are too technically outdated for the ring.
Lots of weapon arts would fall under the soft arts category, worth knowing is an entirely subjective judgement, though tai chi is not going to beat jujitsu and boxing in the ring
>>1198741
Because when soft martial arts work, by adopting realistic training methods, like Judo and Jiu-jitsu, the soft martial arts community shits their pants and says that's not soft martial arts anymore.
>>1198838
I haven't heard many people outside the more well known internal arts who have that problem. others would only object if you abandoned "internals" conventional movement
This is a pretty cool thread, but let me ask you guys something. What do you think about RVD?
>>1198741
Almost all grappling could be construed as 'soft' namely because the greater part of them are focused on containment rather than injury.
Not to mention that real 'soft' martial arts neither look soft nor have very 'soft' results. Taking somebody's legs out from under them on concrete generally ends far worse than repeatedly slamming fists into their face and stomach.
>>1198741
Ufc is prize fighting for sport. You'll never have to say, fend off a guy with a weapon or have to take on two people at once in the Ufc.
The soft arts are usually to prevent conflict using peaceful resolution. They are perfect for law enforcement and to teach others how to properly deal with conflict.
>>1199445
funny law enforcement is the opposite of how to deal with conflict with all the deaths and injuries
>>1199445
>The soft arts are usually to prevent conflict using peaceful resolution.
I dont know where you got the load of nonsense, but I doubt it reflects the opinions of those men, who historically used "soft" arts for purposes such as duels or challenge matches, or in rarer cases to uphold the will of the state.
pic related, this is a "soft" art whose founder worked for the shogunate
>>1199471
>funny law enforcement is the opposite of how to deal with conflict with all the deaths and injuries
It's funny how this is an American problem.
restraint and incapacitation isn't the goal in the UFC.
it's about sweet knock outs and getting submissions on naked men
and I am going to make this clear once again if I have to. Karate and judo already have lucrative world wide professional circuits. You aren't going to see the best at the craft fighting in the UFC because they are fighting other people of the same caliber in a different competition.
MMA is for people who aren't actually good enough at something to specialize so they need to diversify in the hopes of getting one over on someone equally bad.
why would a boxer go into MMA when boxing is already an established sport?
>>1199698
>MMA is for people who aren't actually good enough at something to specialize so they need to diversify in the hopes of getting one over on someone equally bad.
kek.
MMA is too complex and difficult for single-art fighters,
and then then get buttmad and spout stupid opinions like yours on the internet.
>>1199788
people who do MMA go pro within 3 years of starting training, athletes use it as a second career after the retire from their sport. It's about as entry level as it gets because it doesn't require you to be particularly good at anything
>>1199813
We're going to need some statistics on that.
>it doesn't require you to be particularly good at anything
It requires you to be good at fighting.
Boxing is a sport, you need to be good at Patty Cake.
Kickboxing is like Boxing, but it's Advanced Patty Cake.
Muay Thai and Sanda/Sanshou is like beginner MMA with a focus on striking.
Judo is just Japanese clothes grabbing.
Wrestling is for middle school children.
BJJ by itself is kind of like Judo's little brother.
>>1199832
I'm going to say this again. MMA is entry level as fuck
people who excel at striking become boxers or kickboxers, people who excel at grappling become wrestlers or play judo
MMA is for people who aren't good enough to survive the pro circuit in a specific discipline so they start doing it to try and take advantage of the shortcomings their competitors have
>I suck at striking and grappling, but this guys striking is a little bit suckier so I can win!
people retire to the UFC
>>1199869
also for the record a purple belt in bjj is considered a noteworthy skill level in pro MMA, so that should be proof enough of how shit it is
having a brown belt is considered an exceptional level of skill in the UFC
>>1199698
>submissions aren't restraining someone
>>1199869
yeah dude because there's so much money in judo and wrestling
>>1199943
outside of the US
judoka and wrestlers who make it to the Olympics are paid real real good.
If it doesn't work in the UFC, it doesn't work.
>>1199445
>fend off a guy with a weapon or have to take on two people at once
You'll never do that outside the UFC either you Aikunt.
>>1199962
>outside of the US
I'll give you this one.
Here in the US it's about "amateurism" or some other such bullshit which means that the only people who really get a shot are those with parents who can afford to send their kids to the best programs and camps for their sport, and can afford to not work and drive their kids around the country to tourneys and shit. Or the <1% of kids who have talent and get noticed by a coach that is well known like Cus D'Amato and Tyson.
>>1199972
Not him, but Ive met several people who have been threatened with knives and fought with them
>>1199869
MMA is too complex and difficult for single-art fighters.
>>1200107
no it isn't, because you don't need advanced skill nuance. That's why 1, 2, 3, 4, front, round kick, and some blue belt level gracie combatives are what 90% of Pro MMA fighters are entering the ring with
I've been doing karate and kickboxing for years, and recently took up judo and jiujitsu because my striking has gotten about as good as it's ever going to get. There is a UFC gym close by and everyone at my club has a membership there and uses it as a means to try out new shit on scrubs.
There was once guy I was sparring there who was actually pretty decent with his kickboxing, and then I started blowing his shit out with silly exotic kicks like inside crescents and 540s
and know why I was able to do that stuff to him? because he wasn't skilled enough to punish me for it
>>1200566
You are talking about individual skill level m8.
What do you think is best:
>Excellent striking game
>no ground game
>Excellent striking game
>Excellent ground game
MMA fighters need to train in all areas of fighting, but often they still do specialize because of background / natural talent.
Also, according to your logic, a good kickboxer will be defeated by a good taekwondo guy because the taekwondo guy has better kicks.
This is not the case, as has been proven in many fights. Training both is optimal.
>>1200566
>UFC gym
That's not an MMA gym, you fucking mong. The thing about your post is that you completely misunderstand style vs style match ups. The early days of the UFC showed that single minded dipshits like you who think that your fancy kata kick bullshit is going to work on a guy who trains everything he can get his hands on. The reason you don't see hopping dragon crane kick in the octagon is the same reason why you don't see leg laces in the octagon. It doesn't work when the other guy has a bigger moveset. Your bullshit kicks don't work when I double leg you. My low single isn't going to hold up when I can kick you. How the fuck do you not understand this, if you're so hyper competent?
>>1200585
>a good kickboxer will be defeated by a good taekwondo
I believe this to be 100% true assuming the taekwondo guy was training for combat and not sport tkd. It really is an incredible style when it's applied properly
but tkd is already a big deal in its own right, there isn't much motivation for a high level tkd person to learn combat applications when their sport is already big enough that they can make a living off of it
>>1200601
the early UFC was explicitly designed as a format to display the merits of gracie jiujitsu, from the structure of the octagon to the hand picked opponents royce would have a good match up against
I bet you didn't know the original tournament required strikers to wear 6 ounce boxing gloves? Yup, sure was a fair demonstration, bjj works against on people with no fingers
>>1200623
There is footage of the first tournament.
They did not wear gloves.
You are literally fucking retarded.
Now please stop posting.
>>1200627
watch again, if you didn't have gloves you weren't allowed to employ closed hand strikes
also despite popular misconception, groin shots were not allowed
>>1200635
what is this then?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuzImQo7cdg
>>1200676
>what is this then?
a combination of palm strikes and bad reffing, notice how the second fight they show he had a boxing glove on one hand? that was so he would be allowed to punch with a closed fist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ypy0r67DSDs I ALWAYS WILL LOVE YOU
>>1201018
Just stop, everything you have said until now has been incorrect.
Go troll somewhere else.
>>1198741
Because UFC is bullshit.
>>1199698
did you know you can win an MMA match by submission?
>>1201107
What specific aikido moves are "not allowed" in mixed martial arts?
>>1201271
I'm not too familiar with Aikido, but you can't do wrist manipulation, or at least you can't do it very well at all, because you can't hold onto your opponent's gloves.
>>1201353
technically refs in in the unified rule (North America's MMA ruleset used by UFC) will allow grapplers to grab gloves to work submission offense and defense. Ref's will also allow fighters to grab the gloves during stand up. What's not allowed is jamming your fingers into the glove holes or slits
So you're conjecture is false
It's been awhile since I've read a submission stat but if i recall there have been at least a dozen wrist lock within the last 16 years. The most famous was Royce Gracie's wrist lock sub back in 2004 i think in a japanese org event
>>1198741
Define soft? Judo and bjj are soft martial arts
If your question is "why not are aikido and tai chi in MMA?" The truth is:
1- less number of adepts
2- less number of adepts interest in fight
3- abstinence of methodology for sportive kumite
4- emphasis in another tipe of situations
>>1201371
forgot to add its because of gloves that people's choke defense is so high and ironically submission victories from RNC, Darce, are declining. Because people defend by grabbing the glove (and glove grabbing is such a powerful grip) it forces sub fighters to set up the choke in other ways like capturing the defending arm with their leg during back mount etc.
>>1201371
http://www.ufc.com/discover/sport/rules-and-regulations#15
>>1201399
those rule are a general overview, you need to listen to Jon Mccarthy and Herb Dean talk about the implementation of rules,
I have to ask you do you watch UFC events from the last 2-3 years, they even have the commentators talk to the former director of the Nevada athletic state commission about rules and ref plays. The site you're referring is a general over view, but not absolute. Same with every sport, A majority of rules will be in a grey area of implementation to allow the flow of combat (that's a phrase that is being really pushed in the MMA reffing community)
And again i'll reiterate that glove grabbing is actually allowed in certain context such as submission offense and defensive plays.
I'm only a judo nidan and wrestling coach but i am trying to get my MMA and judo reffing certs. I like to think i know what i'm talking about when it comes to the current environment of MMA reffing and rule implementation
>>1201420
>tips fedora
>being this triggered
keku senpai i didnt know we had such a badass here on /wwe/ prease forgive me desu
>>1201381
judo and bjj have been raised at "soft" arts, but what exactly does that mean? certainly judo at the highest technical level talks alot about softness, Especially the old stuff written by people like Koizumi or Mifune was certainly describing "soft" technique and there are good examples of "soft" judo and bjj.
On the other hand you will see alot of local muscle straining, as well as heavy shoulder use which is usually eschewed in most "soft" arts. For instance one jujutsu school I know considers any time you have to strain to pull off a techniques a failure in terms of principle because things like kazushi and tai sabaki combined with full body utilization should do the work
>>1199977
Remind me the time when three robbers are threatening me with fucking kitchen knives. At that time I was in bad mood and I started to act like wild animal and attempt to jump on them.
Good thing that my colleague came to aid me and we chasing them off by tossing cans at them. Funny thing about it is that we are only two person while they are three armed with knives.
Few days later the local newspaper release the article about the evening and it seems that the same gang went to other store to rob but with one less person (maybe because he got soda can on his head).
>>1200566
My coach is a BJJ black belt and a Judo black belt. His last two opponents were also both BJJ and Judo black belts.
A purple belt isn't even notable in the amateur circuit anymore, I have plenty of friends that had a purple belt before their first amateur fight.
It's so obvious that you don't train at an MMA gym or know very many fighters, you're just pulling shit out of your ass.
>>1199698
boxing gives more money than MMA, but put a boxer in the cage with no MMA trainning and he will be rekt by a bjj blue belt.
>>1198748
first reply is best reply
>>1198741
Soft arts are fine for self defense. Aikido catches a lot of disrespect because when you take two people line them up tell them to get ready, then go. Aikido will fail 9 times out of 10 because there will be no misdirection, no ability to move. The other person is braced and ready for a fight. Where aikido has its advantage is in drunken bar fights where someone is looking for the one sided ambush fight. The get in haymaker get out type fight.
That being said throw a knife into the mix my money is on the aikidoka. Especially over any ground fighting style.
>>1201611
Put a mma guy on the street with a boxer things get a lot more even. Going to the ground in a street fight means a surefire stomp out by the other guys buddies.
>>1201693
Lone mma guy vs boxer and friends?
Of course boxer wins.
1v1 streetfight, you bet the MMA guy wins. He has kicks and ground game, where the boxer is just way too one dimensional.
>>1201693
Let's hear a Boxer try to say that when the MMA fighter breaks your spine against the concrete, after the MMA fighter gives the Boxer a dead leg by staying out of punching range and kicking the shit out of the legs.
>>1201788
who knows, against a boxer or specialized striker the first good blow will likely end the fight...
>>1201814
The first leg kick from the MMA guy will immobilize the boxer and make him stop fighting due to pain.
Boxers are specialized, and outside a boxing ring, they don't have the tools needed to handle an opponent who uses more than their fists.
>>1201693
>>1201693
going to the ground while your buddies dog pile him and his buddies has been proven. I roll my eyes everytime people say grappling doesn't work in a group setting. American football, Rugby all those "sports" have multiple people grappling each other at full force, being on the end of 2 guys tackling you at the same time sucks, then even if your buddies come in to stomp on you, they get tackled and taken down and stomped.
Having multiple grapplers learning team work would rek anyway multiple group of boxers.
Rugby showed me that and the hooligans that are the fandom.
>>1201826
>American football, Rugby all those "sports" have multiple people grappling each other at full force
Those are running and grappling arts.
There're no punches, kicks, elbows, knees.
>>1201688
any trained fighter has the distinct advantage against drunken obstacle filled brawls - of course.
That aikido would have an advatage over any striking art is unlikely; the best for a bar fight would undoubtably be Muay Thai so you have the best stance training ( or boxing ), are used to working with very tight spaces, use knees/elbows very often, and are familiar with getting clenched...
>>1201823
>presuming you are starting the fight from 10 paces with a ref opening the fight up
Who knows dickweed, and you're presuming a boxer wouldn't be able to simply strafe a rounhouse? If you had said kickboxer or muay thai dude in the < light heavy weight bracket, then sure. I'd have to agree with you then. otherwise, no.
>>1201826
>going to the ground while your buddies dog pile him and his buddies has been proven.
It only takes 1 buddy to go around kicking all your buddies in the head.
>>1201830
>and you're presuming a boxer wouldn't be able to simply strafe a rounhouse?
In clinch range, the MMA fighter has the advantage.
In punching range, the MMA fighter still has range transition advantage
In kicking range, the MMA fighter has the advantage.
On the ground, the MMA fighter has the advantage.
>>1201826
>group v group
Totally dependent on setting then...
Big open space? why would the grapplers win?
>>1201830
>and you're presuming a boxer wouldn't be able to simply strafe a rounhouse?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ7bbmjtAB0
>>1201835
>what is a low single
>implying your buddy has technically sound kicks
Get in a fight before you post here
>>1201839
i doubt you've trained at a MA gym, or been in a fight.
>>1201843
exactly what i said - muay thai or kickboxer
I don't trust an MMA gym's low kicks at all. if the dude specialized in it sure.
>can only take so many low kicks
yes if you can't lift your leg, or move into or away from the kick over and over again then sure. Again, getting slammed in the face is much more disorienting especially if its going to be followed up by a well performed upper cut (boxer never seen a good one in an amateur mma fight) or hook. The lowkick you can muscle through pretty well two or three times and trust me from a roundhouse position it is easily to be overtaken in stance, unless your low kick is very very quick.
>>1201828
>no punching,kicking elbows or knees
stay pleb ever watch a game there are all of those all the time in rugby
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqF7Gk9dIKw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXe0_b8l6kI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3Vj3UEgAR8
>>1201857
rugby dudes are by far the toughest of the non fighting sports; I have never seen a rugby dude I thought, "I could take you no questions asked,".
>>1201845
>implying kicks need to be technically sound
>implying low singles means shit
Get in a fight before you post here.
>>1201852
>i doubt you've trained at a MA gym, or been in a fight.
nice projecting
>>1201852
>I don't trust an MMA gym's low kicks at all. if the dude specialized in it sure.
I don't think you know very much about MMA.
>>1201878
I haven't trained at a MMA only gym, but I have trained in Thailand with Muay Thai fighters, and I have been to a colleague's kickboxing gym a few times. Can you fault me for not being impressed by the low kicks I see in the UFC?
>>1201852
What do you think they do at MMA gyms?
They literally do the same shit as a kickboxer / boxer / wrestler / jiu jitsu trainee do. Except they don't just do one art, and they learn to combine the different arts into one fight situation.
It's like building a shed. Do you want one tool, or 4 different ones you can switch between depending on what you need done?
>>1201911
That's the inherent problem, which I frankly believe is passing right over your head.
The hours of training you put into a specific skill is - unless you are highly talented - precisely equivalent to the utility of that skill.
I can tell you that your average amateur traditional Muay Thai fighter has his 10000 hours on round house and low kicks alone - your average MMA fighter probably has that in total hours clocked in the gym. I can tell you his low kicks are comparatively worse, and yes I would much rather have 1 tool that I can use confidently and find the timing and situation for than have 4 tools I can only use haphazardly by comparison.
I can see having some basic, often reapeted training as beneficial - like breaking out of thai clench, combination to thai clench, and kickboxer 1-2 kick combos as being very useful. But against striking it is the best striker that wins. If you think as an MMA fighter you'll simply snake a good Striker you're going to get hurt really badly by a good uppercut or knee when you inevitably dive for a Greco-Roman hold when you get BTFO by striking
>>1201911
>2016
>1 tool
>4 tools
>not 1 multi-tool
>>1201940
>you're going to get hurt really badly by a good uppercut or knee when you inevitably dive for a Greco-Roman hold when you get BTFO by striking
Shows how little you know about MMA.
You learn how to fight more intelligently than your narrow minded single arts.
If you're an actual MMA fighter, no uppercut from some Boxer is going to do anything if it even happens.
>>1201940
Old UFC already proves you wrong. All the single art specialists got BTFO by specialists that branched out.
>>1201940
It's as easy as rock paper scissors m8.
No matter how sharp your scissors are, I can still smash them with a rock.
Being complete is almost always better thsn being one dimensional. If you rely on one gimmick, and the opponent counters that gimmick, what are you gonna do? Your only tool is gone, while I still have more tricks up my sleeve.
And why would a muay thai fighter have more hours?
A MMA fighter would have same amount of hours, just spread around on different subjects. His sparring will be better because it's not as controlled an environment as boxing / wrestling only is.
>>1201970,>>1201959,>>1201953
This honestly sounds like total bullshit from a bunch of untrained dweebs.
>old UFC
Was literally a clown car mostly avoided by professional fighters... Even bringing up Pride would be a better apples to apples comparison.
>trad thai fighter
Because they have more time desu, and because the gym doesn't take on very many students so there is a lot of pressure on the students to do well ( also poor ).
>his sparring will be better
His sparring will be better if he is a better fighter and has better training partners. It is almost entirely a moot point.
My generalized point is that you all claim an MMA fighter would have crystalized skills in all arenas; if he was an <amateur it would be doubtful if he had crystalized skills in one domain alone ( great footwork; great hands; great kicks )
>fighting is rock paper scissors
>no uppercut from a boxer is going to do anything
I'm done talking to rugrats with no training.
ciao
>>1201983
>realizes he is wrong
>starts throwing insults
Boxer gets taken down to ground. What do you think happens next?
>>1201983
>I'm done talking to rugrats with no training.
stay delusional pleb
>>1201998
>boxer lets himself get taken to the ground without doing damage
>misses the crux of the argument
K, why don't we put on boxing gloves to - just so the whole thing is fair, amirite?
>realizes he's wrong
What have I been wrong about? All my life I've asked this question and all my life genuinely stupid people like you have forgotten what we were even talking about.
>>1202000
How exactly is it delusional when you've made no claims to training, and genuinely sound ignorant of MA training?
asp is a shithole but at least trad-autists had a legitimate reason to be so iron-clad in cog. dis.
you mma apologetics are simply embarrassing
MMA is a mix of all the best techniques.
Mike Tyson would get owned by any MMA, they'd just kick from out of range or take him down.
>>1202026
I've done American kickboxing for 5 years and wrestling for 3 years
I've been doing MMA for almost 1 year
does my opinion count now?
>>1201443
Well, you see very strong and athletic people because the too have strong emphasis in in the sportive aspect, butt in my city (I live in the center of Brasil ) 60% of bjj fighters are small (Helio Gracie in prime have a average shape) is all relative
>>1200566
>There was once guy I was sparring there who was actually pretty decent with his kickboxing, and then I started blowing his shit out with silly exotic kicks like inside crescents and 540s
Nothing in history has ever not happened as much as this.
>>1202070
I don't think being small means you never strain to finish a technique, or that your good at things like kuzushi, You can be big and athletic and have those things. You can also be small and all arm and shoulder (Though you probably would not be very good)
>>1201940
>If you think as an MMA fighter you'll simply snake a good Striker you're going to get hurt really badly by a good uppercut or knee when you inevitably dive for a Greco-Roman hold when you get BTFO by striking
Oh, good. It's the anti-grapple. We've never heard this before! You just knee somebody when he goes for the single or double, eh? Holy shit why did nobody think of this until now? You should go win some MMA events and make some money with your sure-fire techniques.
And uppercut him! Yeah! Just bend down or dip down and throw that uppercut from mid-shin level or so and catch him right in the snotbox! That's the ticket.
Jesus fuck do you guys ever get tired of spouting nonsense? You'd have to have not only never trained but have never WATCHED someone training to think this shit.
And before you post a video of the 0.5% of times a knee has worked against a shoot, nobody cares. If you drop enough pennies off the Eiffel Tower you'll eventually kill a pedestrian. It doesn't make it a reliable assassination technique.
>>1202130
actually the preferred method is to drop 6:00 elbows and hammer strikes to the spine and back of the head
you know, the things you are explicitly not allowed to do to people in MMA
I would not dare say this martial art is soft, but its effektive in a whole other way than mma.
I sugest you find a wing tsun-club. IT is higly effektive and implementationer tjejlaget developments off mma, but whit a vore focus that i think would interested you op.
>>1202026
Jokes on you, I knew you were shitpost trolling all along.
>thinking you can pull that shit on me
>being so self confident
>thinking you could get anything out of me
kek
Go fuck yourself! :D
>>1199977
>Not him, but Ive met several people who have been threatened with knives and fought with them
So have I.
None of them trained Aikido and none of them walked away without a scratch.
>>1200566
>There is a UFC gym close by
That's like bragging about going down to the SLD kids and beating them in a Math bowl.
"UFC" gyms, as in the franchise gyms, are mostly just regular gyms that franchised the UFC name for brand recognition and aren't training actual fighters who are going out and doing amateur or pro cards.
>>1201018
>that was so he would be allowed to punch with a closed fist
Kek you actually believe this.
>>1202456
One of the guys I know walked away without a scratch, but he did karate, not aikido
>>1201983
>This honestly sounds like total bullshit from a bunch of untrained dweebs.
Not any of them but I wrestled competitively at a decent level, fought MMA, amateur "K1" rules kick boxing, and learned my striking from guys who only ever fought pro kick boxing (70s to early 90s), and you're wrong.
>>1202182
>actually the preferred method is to drop 6:00 elbows and hammer strikes to the spine and back of the head
Even if you were allowed to it wouldn't be effective against anyone with a single season of wrestling experience. Do you really think you're just going to rain down six o'clock elbows while you're getting double legged, high crotched, or inside head singled?
>>1201809
Sure in a crowded bar that is not a hollywood set, there is no "out of punching range" There is usually a few fists thrown at very close range very very quickly. A takedown is not guaranteed due to the number of people near. Usually the fight is won by the guy who connects with the first decent punch. So speed and accuracy are vital. Time is critical, so stepping back and preparing your BJJ game is great until he picks up a bottle. Real bottles are not hollywood sugar glass they break leaving sharp jagged edges.
>>1202695
Nice very specific scenario you have there.
>>1201826
This is not a movie, where a roving gang of grapplers fights a roving gang of boxers. This is you and your girlfriend at a bar. Some drunk is billigerent to yiur girlfriemd you step in to get her out of there. He hauls off and punches you in the back of the head while you are trying to walk away. You turn take him down. HIs uncle-daddy Maynard and nephew-cousin Ezekiel se Delbert being choked on the floor run over and start kicking youn in the head and balls. Until T-rock the 300 lb bouncer who learned to fight in the state penitentiary comes over and saves you.
>>1201830
I have seen a lot of bar fights i have never seen anyone kick successfully. Low kickers usually end up falling. High kickers usially end up in the fetal position holding thier balls.
>>1202130
MMA is a sport. Lots of things that are great in sport aren't the best for the real world.
>>1202702
Happens every day. Most bar fight start over somebodys girl. Most barfights are not 1 on 1. Most bar fights are ended by someone other than the fighter(bouncer bystanders)
>>1202759
Most bar fights you do have time to prepare.
It almost always starts with some shouting / alpha stare down of some sort.
I work at a pub, so have seen some shit.
>>1202182
The back of the head? You're going to hammerfist it? How?
You're going to elbow the head? Maybe, barely, but you aren't going to have any power behind it and your energy would be better spent breaking your fall. You understand he's lifting you and moving you backwards at this point.
But you don't, do you, because you practiced this with your Seafood, and when he shows it to you you're instructed to bend over at the waist and lurch forward slowly, then stand there and let the other guy do his moves.
>>1202753
There is no sport vs. street. Anything you can't practice as a sport you're never going to get good enough at to use on the street.
You're fantasizing about training with no rules but I bet if I watched the training you claim has no rules for five minutes I could spot ten rules you're all following.
>>1202727
This is some high tier fantasy. What movie is this from?
>>1203068
>Anything you can't practice as a sport you're never going to get good enough at to use on the street.
This so fucking hard fampai.
RBSD dick lickers just don't understand that you actually have to train something to do it under pressure.
>>1203062
well then looking at your pic id do a DDT or choke them if they stuck their head out like they do in your pic
>>1202727
This is me my girlfriend and my bestfriend who all train at the same MMA gym. Hell its my entire MMA gym because the typical person that trains at their gym also goes out and parties with their training partners. I get in a fight me and my buds dog pile them and out grapple them, because shit the people we train with are also off duty cops, bouncers, amature fighters and army personal. So i am confident my grappling and my grappling buddies would literally curb stomp and choke out and tie up any drunk douche or his buds.
>>1203148
Do you understand this is a transitory position through which they are moving on their way to the ground?
No, wait a minute...
>DDT
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDT_%28professional_wrestling%29
You don't understand anything. Get the fuck out of here, rasslecunt.
>>1203105
Its not really on topic but there are several weapons styles that would very much disagree with your assessment
>>1203210
I'm sure they'd like to, but can they make a case?
The problem is weapons fighting is completely divorced from reality in the 21st century. Nobody's having sword fights any more. So where's the proof?
>>1203062
it's pretty ignorant of you to look at that picture you posted and not think the guy shooting in is in danger of strikes to the back of the head. He's practically lining himself up for it
I have been asking people for a long time now to test this out, for some reason nobody ever wants to try and shoot in for takedowns when the danger of getting your head smashed is factored in
>>1203228
there are/were various nonlethal matches, and cross training over the last century. Arts like kashima shin ryu are very proud of their styles record in challenge matches with sword and jujutsu.
There is also cross over from schools that spar and those that do not since they both use similar training methods regardless. For those who spar its usually a supplemental practice.
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=115976&page=8&p=2692115&viewfull=1#post2692115
>>1203231
Asking wrestlers? Go to the nearest state college and ask a wrestler in your weight class and you'll get a yes.
Do you understand that they aren't just standing there like that?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClRVqXc7iJc
>>1203228
sparring
>>1203241
I never get tired of appeals to Ellis Amdur's authority.
You put two people with shitty training together in a match and one of them is going to win. In an era when nobody sparred, one of the non-sparring styles was going to be better than the other non-sparring styles. This does not make your point as well as you think.
>>1203249
nigga is asking to take a boot to the face while he's lurking around like a jungle cat. You know a big part of striking is controlling your center line. If I can keep people's much smaller, faster, and longer range hands away what chance do you think you have thrusting your whole body at me in a very predictable way.
but wait! you don't see people getting kicked as a counter in the UFC!!!!
because they take a knee on the shoot and kicking in retaliation is illegal
so I can't kick you on the approach, and I can't punch you on contact, but yeah its totally the ultimate move if you factor those things in
>>1203251
And this proves that non-sparring training is effective how?
>>1203258
Yes, that stance is a result of the rules, but if you honestly think kicking a wrestler in the head is a good idea you're too fucking dumb to be here.
Also, your "if" means nothing. I don't know who the fuck you are and whether you are untouchable with hands. Since nobody is, I suspect you also are not, or you'd be making some money boxing. Why do you hate money, anon?
>>1203255
Do you have any argument to dismiss what he said? I was just posting him as an example, since he is one of the most outspoken on the issue of sparring in classical Japanese swordsmanship, and he backs up his claims with real life examples. I also use him because my position on the issue is similar to his.
> In an era when nobody sparred, one of the non-sparring styles was going to be better than the other non-sparring styles.
But that is not a picture of what happened. sparring, both as challenge matches and a regular form of training was widespread during that period. where do you think kendo came from?
>>1203249
How do I into watching wrestling. I do a little myself but we just go to tap or submission what are the rules for high level stuff like this.
Getting them out of the ring? flat on their back?
>>1203265
>if you honestly think kicking a wrestler in the head is a good idea you're too fucking dumb to be here.
it's not a good idea, It's a great idea my leg accelerates way faster than a wrestlers entire body with enough accuracy to knock ping pong balls out of the air
what chance do you think the wrestlers face has?
would you enjoy eating this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZxk660O21w
>>1203283
It saddens me this isn't in person for you to prove it.
>>1203294
lets just think logically for a moment though, a kick can KO a trained striker that actually knows how to defend against strikes
but somehow it isn't going to KO a wrestler who is leading in head first of all things?
there isn't much to talk about, it's a silly assertion
the first thing you learn in kickboxing after your basic punches is how to control your center line and zone people out with kicks. If the techniques work against people that actually know how to counter them, what chance does a wrestler have to get past them?
>>1203272
I'm currently reading through the whole thread to get some context for where Amdur comes in. I just find it funny that the koryu fans here on /asp/ love to invoke him as if it's a trump card.
IMO It's because "soft" martial artists don't train as extensively as MMA fighters. They tell to themselves "wow this legendary monk is sooo good that if i train the same martial art, ill be as good as him ;)", but they don't realize that these legends trained as hard as a MMA fighter does.
>>1203304
Samefag. Forgot to add:
That said, they would not only get their ass kicked, but also they don't meet the physical requeriments to compete.
>>1203283
Oh. You're a point sparrer! Haha, that's adorable. Let me guess, your seafood told you you should kick off the front leg because it's faster.
Yeah, I've sparred dozens if not hundreds of people just like you. It's a waste of time for all parties.
>>1203301
>a kick can KO a trained striker that actually knows how to defend against strikes
Yeah, maybe, but not THAT kick.
>>1198741
BJJ
Muay Thai
/thread
>>1203312
whether or not it achieves the KO, you aren't going to drive through a kick to the mouth
>>1203310
I have no idea what you're going on about but kicks off the front leg absolutely are 1. faster 2. less telegraphed because you don't need to shift balance, you don't zone out off the rear leg
your legs work the same as your hands, distance managing of the front, power strikes from the back. are you sure you have sparred? I mean I'm sure you have but do you actually have any formal training on the matter?
I've been a kickboxing teacher since 2008
>>1203303
There are not more than three or four koryu guys on asp, I'm the one who usually posts Amdur because his explanations tend to be the most well written, and tend to be grounded in reality
>>1203333
>I have no idea what you're going on about but kicks off the front leg absolutely are 1. faster 2. less telegraphed because you don't need to shift balance, you don't zone out off the rear leg
>your legs work the same as your hands, distance managing of the front, power strikes from the back. are you sure you have sparred? I mean I'm sure you have but do you actually have any formal training on the matter?
>I've been a kickboxing teacher since 2008
Yes, I have had training, and sparred. The front leg is ever-so-slightly faster than the rear leg if you intend to pull both strikes. Kicking through with the rear leg isn't really slower by enough of a margin to make a difference, but when it lands it actually does something.
Also, you shifted your balance, flailed your arms, and generally telegraphed the hell out of that kick. It's okay. There's no kick in the world that can actually be thrown without a balance shift. Standing on two legs and standing on one leg involve different balances. There is no fix for that.
You could walk into my living room right now and hand me your business card and I still wouldn't believe you're a kickboxing teacher because I have:
1. Read >>1203333, and
2. Watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZxk660O21w.
>>1203355
Looking back through the whole thread, Amdur's post seems to have a few points:
1. Amdur respects aliveness
2. The equipment necessary to train some historic weapons such as naginata with aliveness doesn't exist, and training with aliveness with what does exist has its own drawbacks.
3. Challenge matches have been happening in the open and sparring has been going on behind closed doors all along.
So I guess where I still am on this is that #3 in the context of #2 seems to support my contention that challenge matches were taking place between what were essentially non-sparring styles.
I guess Kendo is the most alive Japanese sword art at the moment. Are there examples of kendoka fighting koryu/kenjutsuka that we can verify?
>>1203432
I wrote up a long response to this and then lost it.
Most of that stuff when it does happen is behind close doors. Like it or not the concept of "face" is still important to alot of Japanese, and most koryu still have oaths restricting what you can say to outsiders. Amdur is one of the few who has written about his experiences.
Ive heard some anecdotes online, about kendo vs koryu but not alot. I do know of kendoka who have dropped it in favor of various koryu systems, though a lot of people do both
>>1203496
>kendoka who have dropped it in favor of various koryu systems
Yeah, but there can be a lot of reasons for that.
I don't put the name on very often here on /asp/ since it seems to bother people so much and given that this is going to be a pure rassling board by the end of the year there's no reason to maintain my character, but if we've argued this before you probably know I'm an old knockdown karate player and I've been thinking of switching to kendo just because my legs aren't getting any newer. It's not because I think kendo is superior to karate though. It's just something different to do.
Of course kendo is missing the thing I like best about knockdown karate, which is trading shots with people, so maybe I wouldn't have much fun at it.
>>1203241
>http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=115976&page=8&p=2692115&viewfull=1#post2692115
So how would he explain all the HEMA groups that spar with steel blunts or nylons? I mean if sparring is "stupid".
>>1203539
We've talked about this plenty of times.
Granted, people often switch to a lower impact art as they get older, because their bodies cant take getting thrown/knocked around anymore. But people tend to peek in sword arts at a later age than striking and grappling arts. I know people who are still playing around with shinai and bogu who are far older than you or I.
on a related note I think owari kan ryu and perhaps a few other koryu have a much stronger claim to aliveness than kendo does.
the owari kan guys primarily spar with spears and reinforced bogu, but Ive read they also will use other weapons on occasion as well. There sword stuff is pretty much the same as shinkage ryu (they do both styles) aliveness doesn't appear to have changed the core material much, though I will say they are more impressive than most. A good knowledge base tends to survive stress testing
>>1203310
>your seafood told you you should kick off the front leg because it's faster.
Not him, and I agree with you because I'm a wrestler and he's stupid, but there's nothing wrong with kicking with the front leg and it is quicker if you have the flexibility and control (my striking is from a full contact krotty background, the guys who taught me how to fight trained Yoshukai and Chito Ryu).
>>1203570
If you actually read the thing you would know no one is arguing that sparring is stupid. I know people who do hema and have alot of respect for it. there are people who do both without any problems.
The only point is that there are some traditional weapons styles with little to no sparring that are still very much practical systems if that is what your interested in
>>1203571
So where are you going when we all scatter and there are no more MA threads? Bullshido's kind of dead, so I guess I'm fucking off back to /fit/.
I'll have to look up some OKR videos.
I met Obata and did one of his shinkendo seminars back in the 90s, but it wasn't that much fun. I still have the bokuto I had to buy for that seminar leaning on my desk.
>>1203574
>there's nothing wrong with kicking with the front leg and it is quicker if you have the flexibility and control
It's not that there's something wrong with it, it's that if you started out in dipped foam krotty tag like I did, you're taught ONLY to kick from the front leg, because power is a Bad Thing and the whole game is who can touch whom first.
While we're here, how would you define "control" in this context?
>>1203578
>that are still very much practical systems
How can you concretely show this if it isn't actually tested?
>>1203580
>Bullshido's kind of dead
I thought it was weird that no new threads have been posted in MABS since the last time I was there like six months ago.
>>1203584
>While we're here, how would you define "control" in this context?
Being able to pick my foot up, hit, and then put it back down without falling on my ass or telegraphing the shit out of it.
It might be because I fought and trained for MMA and amateur "K1" rules, but most guys who kick telegraph the shit out of their rear leg round kicks, and that's pretty much all they throw.
I'm not saying there isn't a place for it because you can fuck someone's day up with them, but I can pick my front foot up and touch you in the face pretty hard (either round kick or axe kick) from the same distance I can throw hands.
>>1203580
>So where are you going when we all scatter and there are no more MA threads? Bullshido's kind of dead, so I guess I'm fucking off back to /fit/.
I still read most of the forums, reddit is still somewhat active so I might head there. /his/ also still talks about weapon stuff sometimes.
I mostly just come here to argue
>>1203595
Some test some don't, but most people come to koryu sword arts from other backgrounds, including other weapon arts, sometimes with decades of experience in fact.
>>1203413
>if you intend to pull both strikes
way to put a stipulation on it to support you argument. If you aren't pulling your rear leg kick requires a full body commitment, it isn't even close to the same speed as a kick from the front.
I don't generally even throw kicks with the front leg unless its for distancing
>>1203595
>Being able to pick my foot up, hit, and then put it back down without falling on my ass or telegraphing the shit out of it.
Oh, okay. Agreed then. I'd just call that balance, but that's cool. In point krotty, "control" is how reliably you can hit people without hurting them.
I found playing knockdown karate in Japan that just about anything I brought in from point krotty and tkd in high school such as lead leg side kicks and hook kicks tended to land because almost everybody plays with exactly three kicks: rear leg round kick, rear leg front kick, and rear leg knee.
I was pretty good at chambering my front leg identically or front, side, round, or hook, and then I broke my pelvis and had to switch my whole style up when I got back into it and became one more rear leg round kick spammer.
>>1203607
Wait, turning through a full-force kick is slower than a delicate flick of your toes? No fucking shit. That's my point.
You can't accomplish anything with your front leg kick, up to and including stopping someone from taking you down with a shoot, which incidentally is going to start from closer than you can land that wannabe Bruce Lee kick anyway.
>>1203607
>way to put a stipulation on it to support you argument.
Oh, and that was the only stipulation that supported YOUR argument. I can hit you damn near as fast with my rear leg as I can with my front leg if I don't care how hard either kick is.
>my striking is too powerful for the wrestler!
>I could put Jordan Burroughs to sleep with my elbows!
Is the anti-grappling meme the equivalent of "I'm sure to win because my speed is superior"? Video related. Watch around 0:20 for the deadly elbows.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd1KDz1X7iE
>>1203621
>You can't accomplish anything with your front leg kick
wrestler doesn't know shit about striking, wow shocker
>>1203621
>You can't accomplish anything with your front leg kick
k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EOFdG44o-I
>>1204005
Let me know if you need a hand with that.
>>1204037
you kidding right now? the whole basis of this talk has been wrestlers claiming it's impossible to kick someone in time before they connect with a double leg and therefore kicking isn't a reasonable defense against it
meanwhile the fastest man in the world can't even break 30mph in a sprint, and a martial artist kicks at 100+
but nope, double legs are just too damn fast, kick would never make it through in time
>>1204045
Then you will have no problem naming some fighters who do that consistently and posting a list of videos showing fights that were won just that way.
I'm sorry motherfucker, but 1993 was a long time ago and we are all tired of hearing the same theorycrafting about this issue. No, you can't kick him in the face because his shoot is going to start too close. No, you can't knee him in the face because he's going to be coming too fast. No, you can't knee at a hundred miles per hour, and no, sprint speed has nothing to do with the speed of the single step it takes to shoot.
While I'm at it, you are slow, tubby, have poor balance, and don't know what the hell you are talking about.
Now either find me ten fucking fights that ended with a kick to the face stuffing someone's takedown attempt in the next hour or fuck right off with your tired old nonsense from Black Belt Magazine's back issues.
>>1204056
>do that consistently and posting a list of videos showing fights that were won just that way.
I'm pretty sure we have already well established the reason you don't see anyone try to stuff shoots with strikes is because literally every possible strike is illegal off a double leg
why are moves illegal? because they are career enders when they connect, that's why people literally aren't allowed to kick you once you drop your head for the double
>>1204074
Bullshit. UFC aint' the only MMA promo, and they haven't always been illegal there.
Career enders. God damn. How do you breathe with that much shit spewing out of every orifice in a constant stream?
I'm finished engaging you on this. Your idiocy will stand in this thread as long as it's up.
>>1204081
you don't know what you're talking about, you're an obvious gayfag that likes sucking the asshole of what ever your teacher tells you about your one true super style. You are done engaging me because you would be afraid to engage me in a match, you have obviously never even trained with a striker or you would know getting inside is much easier said than done. you don't know shit about controlling a center line, that much is clear.
and you have VERY obviously never even been punched in the face if you think a kick isn't enough to shut you down.
just run along and go back to watching joe rogan commentate fight night.
I'll still be over here making a living doing martial arts, training and fighting people on a daily basis while you're at home talking about how great you are but not actually training.
>>1204081
>getting trolled by a 'double leg? just knee him in the face lmao' fag
Embarrassing
>>1204005
>a full body tackle
That's, that's not what shooting is.
Which is understandable that you wouldn't know the difference considering you don't know dick about wrestling.
>>1204074
>that's why people literally aren't allowed to kick you once you drop your head for the double
>once you drop your head for the double
>drop your head
What do you think a good double leg shoot looks like?
Because none of it involves "dropping your head".
>>1204095
>I'll still be over here making a living doing martial arts, training and fighting people on a daily basis
Hey Goju guy, I see you're still making things up about yourself.
>>1204108
oh really, you stay eye level when you double leg?
>>1204111
the only pro fighting that visits this board. Now that MMA is legal in NY, expect to see some shit go down.
>>1204104
>>1204118
>pro
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgTvwFQ4rpU
>>1199698
Jacare Souza, world BJJ champion (his speciality)
Hector Lombar (Olympic Gold Judo Medalist his specialty)
Johnny Hendricks and countless of other wrestlers (NCAA wrestlers, even Olympic Wrestlers, their specialty)
Lyoto Machida (Karate his specialty)
Fedor Emelianenko (Sambo world champion, his speciality)
Mirko Crocop (Kickboxing champion, his speciality)
Are you sure? That MMA is for guys who aren't good at anything?
>>1204167
and don't you see? they already beat the best of the best at what they do and retired into MMA because that's where the easy money is
>>1198741
Soft martial arts don't make as much use of physical attributes, therefore the skill gap needs to be higher in order from them to work.
If the opponent is using all of his strength and all of his skill, and you are using only skill, then logically you must have more skill in order to compensate for his strength.
Why do people train in systems like that? Because they find it fun or interesting, because it's physically less punishing on the body, and because there are many legal and social issues to be navigated when defending yourself.
I train in soft MA, and security work has me regularly involved in violence. I know lots of other people who are the same in my industry, and there are also boxers, muay thai guys, MMA guys. Violence is a really complicated issue, and should not be considered something you can 'master', there are plenty of different situations that in turn call for different answers.
>>1204201
We don't have time for nuanced discussion here. This is /asp/. Just call somebody a faggot and post some videos of diva feet.
>>1204201
>Soft martial arts don't make as much use of physical attributes
That certainly not my understanding of soft arts. Sure they try not to use alot of isolated muscle strength, but they do try to use integrated strength, and many of them spend hours a day conditioning for that purpose. In fact most of those Ive talked to and read about start with conditioning and work their way through technique and free play from there
>>1204229
I am simplyfying for brevity, I admit. The basic exercises of any martial art will be aimed as cultivating some kinds of physical strength. But most internal arts explicitely state this is only a framework to build the capacity to work with 'energy' (sensetivity and biofeedback). Some believe there is more going on inside the body, but at this point the quantifiable aspect is technique.
An aikido or tai chi practitioner has had fitness training in the way a BJJ guy has had takedown training. It's something they know they need a minimum level of, but it's not their focus. People don't come to those arts because they want to be a wrecking machine, they're attracted by the philosophy.
In terms of how the chinese internal stuff actually builds attributes, again there's so much variation that it's really hard to generalise, but while they emphasise strength in the legs, they want to 'open' the joints of the upper body much as yoga does. It's not exactly mutually exclusive to modern strength training, but it would be quite hard to get good at both simultaneously, and a casual practitioner will probably just not bother.
>>1204265
I certainly agree that the body usage in "internal"arts is closer to yoga than modern athletic training and it would be difficult to do both at the same time.
I am being unfair here as many people doing internal arts still believe in "energy" quite literally, but those I most respect understand the old theories, but coach there understanding of what is happening in purely physical, and reserve things like moving energy to the realm of intent and visualization.
>>1204303
Yeah I dig. These terms are all very vague, so until you give them some kind of reasonable definition it's pointless to have a discussion. There will always be plenty of complete escapists like ashida kim (is calling a ninja an escapist a pun? I'm unsure).
>>1204114
>oh really, you stay eye level when you double leg?
No I change my level like an actual wrestler, I don't just drop my head face towards the floor.
>>1204391
>make a living doing martial arts
>not a professional
I'm very well respected for my perspective and training style
>>1204421
>Says he's a pro fighter
>Gets called out for saying in the past he only fights in "the streets"
>Damage control into override "I g-g-g-get p-paid to teach Krotty so I'm a pro!"
>>1204451
I wont $1000 in a karate tournament earlier in the year, and $300 in a jiujitsu tournament last week. If you earn money doing someting you are a professional at it.
if I decided to make fighting my main source of income it would be, however training is much more lucrative.
>>1204421
Is that kick video you? If it is, there's no possibility you are respected for your training style.
Does some gym keep you around as a joke like Silva hung out with Seagal?
>>1204458
>If you earn money doing somet[h]ing you are a professional at it.
>I earned $1300 in six months!
These two statements don't compute.
>>1204458
>I wont $1000 in a karate tournament earlier in the year, and $300 in a jiujitsu tournament last week.
So you'd be able to produce video proof of this, right?
Because the Goju guy character has been about making up things you couldn't prove.
>>1205242
Yeah actually they do. An amateur is classified as someone who does something as a hobby, ie without pay. A professional is someone who does it for money. It doesn't necessarily mean they do it as their main means of income. I have a friend who works at a grocery store so he has spending money while he goes to college. He also does photography (weddings, baby pictures, etc) on the side when the opportunity arrives. That makes him a professional photographer since money is being rendered for his services.
>>1205482
Though I'd also add that being a pro isn't really a great indicator of ability. There was a pro boxer at the last event I went to that had over 30 fights and had won five of them.
>>1205482
This is why "professional" doesn't mean anything unless there's licensure in that field.
Try calling yourself a professional architect sometime and see how long you stay in business.
>>1205515
>>This is why "professional" doesn't mean anything unless there's licensure in that field.
Yeah, I agree with that. Unless it's different in other parts of the United States, you have to have a license to compete in martial arts/boxing matches. I know I have to register with USA Boxing to even compete at the amateur level.
>>1205535
>you have to have a license to compete in martial arts/boxing matches.
I've fought in amateur kickboxing and MMA and the only thing I've had to get was a hep blood work.
>I know I have to register with USA Boxing to even compete at the amateur level.
You're talking about a specific organization.
>>1205658
>>Unless it's different in other parts of the United States,
In Virginia you need to register. They actually just passed a law last year making it so that any martial arts promoter has to go through the state department here before they're given a license.
>>1205721
>any martial arts promoter has to go through the state department
Same thing here. The state boxing commission handles kickboxing and MMA.
>>1198972
We think your meme is fag shit.
>>1198741
Here are the tiers of fighting styles.
God Tier
-----------------
BJJ and Muay Thai
You can do MMA by only learning these two. That's how good they are.
------------------
A-Tier
------------------
Kick-boxing
Boxing
Wrestling
While not necessary to learn, getting practice with some pure wrestling/boxing coaches will make some specific areas of your game very refined.
-------------------
B-Tier
--------------------------
Judo
Taekwondo
Karate(Not talking about the MCdojos here)
Some parts are useful but there's so much bullshit that you might as well not bother. their competitions have stupid rules that stops them from actually evolving into legit fighting styles.
------------------
Shit-tier
----------------------
Karate(Mcdojo)
Aikido
-----------------------
Nothing more bullshit than this. Stay the fuck away from these martial art. Nearly nothing about them works, if you try to fight with these, unless you have some gigantic size advantage, you're going to get your ass handed to you.
>>1208212
>Judo in the same tier as taekwondo
>>1208212
I'm convinced that anyone who ranks bjj high up has never actually trained. It's literally 90% gi grips and fancy garbage you will never hit in practice but learn for the movement theory
if it requires a gi, it isn't good
Because they are mostly defensive martial arts, that is to say they are mainly useful in self defense. To be more specific, it is difficult to use soft martial arts to attack an opponent but it is useful in defending oneself against an attacker. If you pit two experts in any of the soft martial arts against each other in the ring, the audience will quickly get bored watching each fighter wait patiently for the other to attack.
>>1198748
This. UFC is NOT a real street fight. It has far more elements to it than say boxing, but it isn't a TRUE no holds barred. If it was, you'd see many deaths, a broken arm or leg, paralysis, etc. And that not only would be illegal, but bad for business.
>>1208536
If that's the case then why do those two at the top he mentioned form the basis of modern military Combatives.
>>1208596
I like BJJ, but your argument has no merit. Military combatives exists to build esprit de corps, promote physical fitness, and give soldiers something to do other than play Call of Duty all day.
You literally spend more time making your bed in the military than you do training H2H. Wars have been fought with weapons ever since Grog hit Grag over the head with a rock because he had a bigger cave.
>>1208580
Do you think it was like that in it's earlier days?
>>1208596
you do realize soldiers shoot guns, right?
>>1208212
I've seen guys with no experience outside of wrestling and minimal kickboxing dominate BJJ/Muay Thai mustard race. You guys are overthinking this shit. When you're good at any one of these, it really doesn't matter. There's no strict hierarchy here unless you're in the UFC which is highly unlikely.
>>1199634
It's funny both of you have no idea what you're talking about
it's funny, you can tell who you should bother learning grappling from
last night we were doing some de la riva and berimbolo stuff and my teacher flat out said. "this stuff is cool to learn but its useless, it would never work in an actual fight concrete when there can be glass and shit on the ground"
even a career bjj instructor admits the limitations of jiujitsu in a street fight. How is it that students refuse to do the same thing?
>>1198741
Short answer : yes.
Long answer : yes, soft martial arts are bullshit.
Where did everybody move to once WWE took over?
>>1212491
Unless there's a better place to talk about alternative sports anonymously, I'll still be staying here.
>>1201443
"soft" martial arts are traditionally those that (claim to) use the mind as much as the body
>>1212577
I always defined it as those arts that follow a body usage similar to what is described here, by Harrison, the first westerner to hold a dan rank in judo
http://judoinfo.com/harris.htm
"Do not forget that in whatever direction you are trying to disturb your opponent's posture, it is essential that the dynamic impulse should not be confined to your arms and legs alone but must be, as it were, reinforced by the centrifugal force emanating from your lower abdomen or saika tanden. Also in applying kuzushi be careful not to raise your elbows without immediate action, since in that position you expose yourself to dangerous counterattack.
In connection with what has been set above, I cannot do better than quote some remarks made by Mifune, 10th Dan and the late Hashimoto, 9th Dan of the Kodokan, on execution of throws: "it is necessary for you to realize the importance of full use of the body mechanism, from your little finger to your big toe. In this way your power comes from the use of your weight, your abdominal muscles and your shoulders. You must not use your arms are legs locally but your whole body as a unit, getting your results from the tanden (abdomen)"
going beyond that it would also cover correct usage of posture, alignment, and kiai or breath control, all of which were covered in early judo texts
>>1198741
because aikido is role play
>>1212859
Bitches love role play.
>>1198741
both judo and jiujitsu are in UFC.
>>1198741
>soft martial arts
Soft martial arts aren't what you think they are.
They aren't actually gentle and completely harmless.
Even Aikido is only harmless if the practitioner is actually trying to very deliberately be gentle.
Judo itself literally means soft/gentle way.
And "soft martial arts" are used extensively in UFC.
And you would be surprised how many notable martial artists have substantial Aikido experience, alongside the Judo BJJ and Traditional Jujutsu many of them have studied.
Every martial art excels within the framework for which it was designed; go outside the framework, and it can fail, miserably. MMA has it's own framework (even though it's proponents may claim otherwise).
>>1214091
fact: an mma fighter that complains about losing in a boxing match because they had a lot of their moves taken away is exactly the same as a combat martial artist complaining about rules in MMA taking their moves away
they are either both valid, or neither are
that determination is up to you
>>1214317
That's why old school exhibitions and vale tudo comps that were filled with black belts plying their craft were dominated by combat martial artists. There's been orgs where kicks to the ground or strikes to the back of the head, no gloves, groin shots and small joint manipulation (breaking fingers n shit) were all legal but at the end of the day it's dominated by legit grapplers or strikers.
Sambo experts to dutch kickboxers (American kickboxers were often BTFO hard) to Muay Thai fighters to boxers to judo guys and BJJ guys. All that retarded "too dangerous 4 tha streets or UFC I'm a lethal weapon that could literally kill you" shit was exposed like crazy, all the fucking time.
Just do Kung Fu, that way you get a good balance of hardness AND softness.
>>1198741
Generally you don't do soft martial arts with the aim to fight in a ring. Just like how you're not going to do regular running everyday in order to become a sick 100m dasher. Depending on the art in question you might need to invest too much time to gain something that will be useful in UFC or whatever, or feel that there's nothing that will be useful to you in the first place. Why do that when you can use the time to simply perfect what you CAN do in the first place?
>>1201353
Wrist manipulation and the like are just icing on cake. They're not actually what you learn to do. Aikido "techniques", as laid out on paper and practiced, are useless by themselves and are supposed to be so. Their function is to teach principles of positioning, balance and movement.
Aikido is one of those arts in which what you learn and your general approach varies a lot according to who's teaching you and how the people surrounding you are. The spectrum runs from people with decades of experience under their belt that will yell at a beginner for not "attacking properly" to those who have perfected the kata and have no problem whatsoever with adapting it against non-standard attacks (strikes intended to hit and hurt) and things that aren't attacks at all. The former type outnumbers the latter by a lot though, of course.
>>1202727
>nephew-cousin Ezekiel se Delbert
>T-rock the 300 lb bouncer
Sheeeeit son where do people with these names even live?
>>1214380
bjj has never been tested under the no rules circumstances without a gi being legally used as a weapon
it's important that if its going to be battle tested it has to be done so like that
my teacher has expressed offensive grappling as a waste of time, you get into a fight go knee on belly and drop hammer strikes and elbows to the guys face, and grab a sub if you see it. You shouldn't be working for them as your end game though
>>1202727
kek'd
would read again
>>1214390
>get a good balance of hardness AND softness.
You could do Goju for that.
>>1214794
>bjj has never been tested under the no rules circumstances without a gi being legally used as a weapon
lol
Get a load of this guy
>>1214801
this guy gets it
>>1208536
I like the way we train BJJ at my gym. I just started, but there's a huge emphasis on no-gi, and we do a no-gi/wrestling mashup class twice a week, with gi BJJ three times a week (in which we also learn the no-gi versions of whatever we're learning).
>>1214801
>You could do Goju for that.
He's not talking about getting a balance of hard and soft dicks in an around your mouth and anus.
Working as a bouncer and security guard, I've used aiki techniques plenty of times. You don't always need to hurt your opponent to get the job done. Sometimes people just need your help finding the floor or the door.
>>1199471
Well the thing is fighting someone with a weapon or two people at once by yourself is a losing prospect. Law enforcement hand 2 hand is damage control, not competitive fighting. Very different stuff.
Competitive fighters would be better fighters almost all the time. But there is some truth to that rsbd stuff about "da str33t". Not all of it, but some of it is true.
>>1214746
You missed one, anon.
>The spectrum runs from people with decades of experience under their belt that will yell at a beginner for not "attacking properly" to those who have perfected the kata and have no problem whatsoever with adapting it against non-standard attacks (strikes intended to hit and hurt) and things that aren't attacks at all.
...to people who have never seen a real attack that wasn't just someone setting himself up to go flipping and rolling across the room after being defeated by the proper technique.
You know, the vast overwhelming majority of aikibunnies.
>>1202048
>What is rushing in?
>What is a uppercut?
>>1219492
I don't think you've actually trained with the "overwhelming majority" to make such a comment.
With that being said, any honest practitioner will admit that attacking properly is some sort of an afterthought for many people and that everybody just wants to throw the other guy around. This is the biggest problem with this martial art, and the reason why the quality of the teachers is so important. It comes with the system though because the objective of the attacks isn't to teach you ebin counters against that specific kind of attack, and also the primary objective of Aikido isn't to teach how to beat people up. The primary benefit of doing what is a proper attack for Aikido practice is not letting the partner learn stupid habits that will render his techniques less or ineffective, reaction training is subordinate to that.
Also "real attack" is a slippery slope and should be employed carefully. Otherwise you find yourself in the absurd situation where you claim that unless your training involves fighting with people who are actually going to kill you if they get the chance, you haven't seen anything real. Or something like how training in a dojo/gym invalidates everything because those lab environments aren't the real deal.
>>1221457
If you've never competed against someone outside of your dojo you have no real practice.
>>1221457
Haha, yeah, let's throw a wall of text and sophistry at the painfully obvious, and add just a soupcon of No True Aikidoman just in case you missed anything.
My training involves fighting with people who are actually going to punch me if they get the chance, because if they don't put me down I'm going to do my best to do the same to them. If you think your aikido has any similarity to that you're self-deluded.
>>1198741
>Why does no one in the UFC use soft martial arts?
UFC is all about being burly and manly while rolling around and hugging on the floor with another man.
>>1221457
>Unless you're trying to kill each other, there's no point sparring!
>My fantasy samurai LARP is much better than your randori, because we imagine ourselves doing well!
>>1221533
There is some truth to this.
>>1225867
I think that doing aikido or any soft art is fine. The whole point of those arts are more for spiritual development than developing fighting ability. I think also practice with weapons is a lot more interesting than just larping.
I find it so weird that so many guys down other guys fight practices because their aim is different. I mean I'm down with MMA guys but I never intend on stepping into the ring. I do Chinese stuff but I don't claim to be "too deadly", tai chi is relaxing and push hands is entertaining.
I mean why does it have to be me vs you? every fighting style has holes and problem areas.
>>1226380
>The whole point of those arts are more for spiritual development
As well as character building.
>>1226380
I can name a few soft arts that are about developing fighting ability, It might not be the goal of all of them but they are out there
>>1227461
Soft like, oh, I dunno... Judo? BJJ? Freestyle wrestling? Catch-as-catch-can?
Those are soft arts, right? And they've been proven effective against well trained and resisting opponents, correct?
>carepost at nobody in particular
I find elitism about fighting ability kind of ironic since martial arts is up there with flint knapping and bowhunting in terms of being a practical survival skill. If a meth head attempts to knife you in that dark alley, maybe an old koryu disarm is just what you need, or maybe MMA clinch would be better, but holy fuck how many judgemental errors have you made to even be in that situation?
Nobody can stand the type of guy who trains so he can win drunken brawls in the Maccas parking lot every saturday night- That guy is a dick. But so's the smug asshole who walks around with a sense of superiority because he COULD win that drunken brawl if he wanted to. Oh wow he's such a paragon of zen, having the power to be a douche but not using it. Only he will use it if you piss him off. Cos hes a fucking douche.
Just shut up and train and have fun and try to slow your decrepit slide into old age like the rest of us.
>>1227543
But how do you even distinguish something like that. I find some of the worst elitism comes from many guys who do MMA on here. I will say that in real life a lot more traditional guys can be really obnoxious. But that's more because of the person and not the art.
Having fighting ability is really important just because you never know when you actually might need it. Training every week with throws could be the difference between living or dying in one moment. I think it's foolish to assume that there is no possible way you will get into an altercation during your life.
I personally believe soft arts practiced regularly and in the right atmosphere are very effective means of self-defense as long as you don't take it further than that. A seho nage could be the difference between getting stabbed and running away with your life.
You can't underestimate the value of self-defense.
>>1227621
If you're looking at improvement in safety relative to time invested, then no, most martial arts do not make sense, since the scenarios they prepare for are initially very unlikely, and once you get past a basic level of proficiency it's a case of diminishing returns.
I'm not arguing this just to be annoying, the elitism we are discussing comes from a this line of reasoning. Survival is our primary need, martial arts aid us in our survival, therefore A. the more proficient I am in martial arts and B. the more my particular style of martial arts approximates a real struggle, the more suited I am to survive. I am more worthy in an evolutionary sense.
This worldview is false. The only reason hand to hand combat is at all relevant to us because the state has monopolised all more extreme versions of violence. If the state is functioning, the need for it is seldom. If the state ceases to function you will need far greater tools and types of violence to survive .
If you regularly fight with people unarmed, you're either in a use of force job (in which case you're not legally allowed to fuck peoples shit up, so effectiveness becomes a muddy concept), or you're a massive, massive tool.
I'm the former, and I do get some mileage out of martial arts, but asking which is most effective is absurd. There are places you can't touch women. Old guys can be really strong but their bones are brittle so you can't just slam em. Sometimes you need to contain one guy, but if you do it too harshly his ten friends will jump in.
The variables are infinite. Trying to reduce it to a simple formula that you can use to judge others is a problem that both TMA and MMA camps suffer from.
>>1227479
Judo and Bjj are arguably soft arts, though I would not describe most of the people in them as soft. not sure if catch wrestling would count. Most of them can fight better though.
>>1227875
Over a million violent crimes per year in the United States with a population of 300 million. So 1/300 odds per year of being the victim of a violent crime, or nearly 1/3 in a lifetime.
Firearms were used in 68 percent of murders, 41 percent of robbery offenses and 21 percent of aggravated assaults nationwide.
Concealed carrying or having a shotgun near the bed is obviously your best bet for self defense but there are many cases where it is illegal to defend yourself or your property with firearms, or where you'll have to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in court when you could have just slept him instead of killing.
To claim that unarmed self defense is useless in modern society is completely absurd.
>>1228066
So firstly we have a 66% chance of avoiding violence completely by doing nothing. Then if you take into account the distribution of that violence is unequal, by avoiding the ghetto your odds increase significantly.
Of the violence you encounter, the vast majority will not be solveable by martial arts. Of the violence that can be solved with martial arts, the vast majority of it would have been non lethal anyway.
I'm not arguing against training. I fucking love training. But people misrepresent the importance of it to themselves, and that causes them to become elitist dicks. Yes, your martial arts might save you one day, but it's long odds, wheras not being a dick is actually a highly useful everyday skill, and can also save you from violence.
>>1228066
>having a shotgun near the bed
Shotguns aren't that great for close quarters combat.
You would want something sawed off, or short and fully automatic. If the attacker is in the same room, you'd even want something with a hair trigger.
However, there're complications if you're not the only person in the house, or if you and your girlfriend/wife aren't the only people in the house.
You start shooting a gun, and the bullets could very well go through the walls and hit someone you don't want hit by a swift punch from a bullet, especially with the shot of shotguns, or automatic weapons.
What you would want are .22 low velocity rounds, also because you wont want hearing damage later in your life.
If you've got other people in your home, you'd probably want a pistol along with your low velocity .22 rounds.
>>1228151
33% chance of serious bodily harm or the average loss of thousands of dollars is not negligible and there is a large portion of unreported violent crimes.
I would assume most posters here are at or below the poverty line and are at a much higher chance of becoming a victim.
Attacking or threatening without a weapon was 22% of total self protective behavior and 45% offered no resistance, so a majority of the victims would find unarmed self defense incredibly useful.
There are people who misrepresent the importance of unarmed self defense but the fact is that it is worth the time invested to learn.
A vast majority of violent crime is unprovoked.
>>1228289
Suppressed shotguns with low velocity buckshot are by far the best choice for home defense.
Easy to grab and fire, no recoil, you're not going to miss, you're not going to penetrate walls, you don't need ear protection, and it will stop your attacker.
22LR is not going to stop a determined attacker in the first few rounds without good shot placement, especially if he is wearing body armor or you're shooting from behind cover or around a corner.
>>1228311
>I would assume most posters here are at or below the poverty line and are at a much higher chance of becoming a victim.
This is a joke right.
