Dear Vince Russo haters,
Please explain how this fits your narrative.
Kind regards,
A logical person who can read ratings
I would be up for it at this point. WWE booking FUCKING sucks
now do the same graph for WCW
congratulation OP you're as dumb as Eric Bishoff and Dixie Carter
>>1167620
RUSSO HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE DOWNFALL OF WCW
As long as I despise Russo for shit like pole matches and so on...
I would gladly have him back, granted WWE goes way less PG. After all it's entertainment, if people don't care about the character and a story they likely won't care about the match and people in it at all unless it's someone already established in AE or spent ~15 years in the indies.
It would probably result in some custody of Shanes children matches but fuck, I'll gladly take it over yet another bland feud that leads to nothing and makes you fall asleep.
>>1167633
This. The swerves are miles better than the dull crap they're putting on now.
>>1167620
Done. Also keep in mind he was fighting against a massive juggernaut that he himself had built. Not bad...
>>1167610
Russo's style was something new and interesting at first and people are attracted to new and interesting.
But then his ego grew and he didn't realise that the novelty wore off. And he was even worse in WCW instead of learning from his WWF mistakes.
McMahon is no genius either.
>>1167666
I'd rather get fully swerved into something hilarious than watch yet another feud that has nothing interesting going on about it.
>>1167718
The novelty wore off? Ratings grew continuously under him in WWF with him hitting the only 8.0+ towards the end of his tenure there. When he went to WCW he stablilised ratings in a very hostile environment following and preceeding massive declines under Bischoff and Sullivan respectively. He was and is a genius.
>>1167729
>He was and is a genius.
Then what happened with TNA? If he was such a great genius who led WWE to ratings supremacy and brought WCW back to respectability, how come he never achieved any success in TNA?
>>1167781
He never had proper creative control and he had severe budget constraints. For what it's worth, TNA was much more successful when he was writing it than it has been since.
Hey Russo!
>>1167610
1997-2000: Rock, Austin, Mcmahon come on the scene
2001-: Rock leaves to do movies, Austin goes heel and retires soon after, Mcmahon gets stale especially after the InVasion gets fucked up
>>1167781
I think we can all agree that Nash and Hogan killed TNA, taking advantage of Dixie.
>>1167796
Austin, Rock, and McMahon? You mean Russo's three defining characters.
One thing Russo did well was make sure everybody had a storyline. Bret Hart has jumped on the trashing Russo bandwagon since but at the time he was singing Russo's praises for doing something interesting with him
>>1167854
Bret Hart is a clueless little whinger. On the Russo bashing he is second only to Jericho, an irritating prick who trashes Russo despite only working with him for a couple of months when a) Jericho was a new talent, b) Russo was stretched to breaking point with the introduction of Smackdown, and c) Russo was working overtime to put Jericho over including booking him to beat Rock within months of entering the Fed.
Such scum.
>>1167610
I don't like people who can't properly do a story.
>muh ratings
>>1168112
The constant run ins were annoying but I would take him back in a heart beat over what there is now.
Why do people act like ratings are a measure of quality?
It just means the product at the time appealed to the widest range of people.
Russo has massive flaws and can't be given full creative control (a robust sanity check system with guys working close to him needs to be in place) but he would be a million times better than what we have today. He at least understood that people need to buy into the character first and that everyone who's an asset needs to be doing something at least mildly interesting at any given time.
>>1168133
No you wouldn't. Don't say stupid shit like that.
>>1167610
It was hogan all alone brother.
He made wwf big at the end of the 80's with a character for kids. Then the audience grew with the product who was 7-10 under Hogan was 17-20 under Russo.
Then the audience got to old for prowrestling.
So PG may was the right step to do a restart.
Sadly you now have the 30+ neckbeards who boos the guys who they want to become the new hogans.
>>1168173
>We should totally bury the Title to an actor guys
>>1168163
They already did the PG reboot with Cena as top baby face 10 years ago so if they're mirroring it then it should be back to Adult show now those kids are late teens but it's not. Vince never wanted to ditch trying to be the Disney of wrestling, he was forced by WCW/ECW.
>>1168173
What did he mean by this?
>>1167833
>Russo
>Creating anything by himself
The Rock was Dwayne's idea all along.
Stone Cold was Steve's idea too (even Russo says it bothers him the fact that everyone believes he said that).
Mr. McMahon was Vince playing along with the fans that hated him after the Screwjob.
If you want to see a Russo creation, check Brawl for All
>>1167610
what happened in 2006?
WWE will never hire back Russo because from what's been said in multiple interviews, Stephanie hated him.
>>1168546
That's when Cena officially became WWE's Ruiner of Everything.
I guess there were a few more people watching to give him a chance, and quickly saw just how bad he is.
>>1168555
Vince is cucked by his own talentless shrew daughter. Sad!
>>1167610
Russo was batshit crazy; therefore he was gold in small doses. Give him complete control over booking (WCW 2000) and things turn into a complete shit show. Plus, you can't really credit the success of the Attitude Era entirely on Russo. Also, I haven't met many people who think of McMahon as a "creative genius". He's only slightly less insane.
>>1167669
You know that ratings aren't the only thing that matters? Buy-rates and house shows are where the money's at, which went further south than a penguin hooker.
>>1168769
House show attendence stabilised under Russo between Oct and Dec '99 too so once again your fact free ignorance is just embarrassing. This stat was in freefall before Russo saved it, until the suits in Turner handed the book to that hack Sullivan.
>>1167666
>I'd rather have ironic shit booking I can laugh at that will tank the ratings with casuals and families than bland booking that doesnt appeal to my sensiblities
>>1168163
>It's a "Fuck the adult majority, pander to the chillins" episode
>>1167610
This reminds me, I really can't wait for the next episode of Razorfist's "The Russo Rebuttal." This man tears Russo haters a new one like it's his job. Hell, he destroyed Jim Cornette so bad that he (or WWE) got the original upload pulled from YouTube. Here's the reupload. Trigger warning for Cornette worshippers: your master gets btfo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA4OrN8MCVI
>>1168788
What was that dip in Sept 99 about?
The only problem i have with russo is that he gets butt hurt so easy.
Wrestling with wregret made a parody of him and he blocked him
>>1168546
DX reunited, ECW relaunched on the back of a hot one night stand and RVD was pushed as new world champion, Edge was pushed as the rated R superstar
>>1168876
I don't know but given that Russo didn't sign until October I don't care.
>>1168890
He did an interview with him later tho.
Russo haters would be more at home on Reddit
>>1168449
It's not that Russo created anything, he just helped talk McMahon into letting people be themselves, and then worked with said people to enhance their characters
Viagra on a pole match
Judy Bagwell on a forklift
Everyone who's not a smark knows Russo is based. That one time he rebooked the 2001 Invasion for Kayfabe Commentaries, it was fucking great.
The only really bad thing about Russo is that while he's right the belts are just props, they should be important props. He really fucked over the IC Title
>>1169220
Yeah he did a much better job at rebooking it than Cornette. The roster was stacked in 2001, 2002 it should of been much better than it was, nwo was only relevant for 6 weeks.
>>1169282
WCW was led by Buff Bagwell and Mark Jindrak, did Russo want to bring in the Time Warner Contract guys like Sting and Steiner?
>>1169220
Is there a video?
>I rate Vince Russo
>>1169291
He didn't want them to announce they'd bought it on Nitro, then have Scott Hall turn up on Raw and do it like a shoot like how the NWO started just showing up. Build the angle until Wrestlemania 18 and then have dream matches like The Rock vs Sting, Austin vs Goldberg
>i unironically love jim cornette even though he says he hates when wrestling isn't believable like how a midget like daniel bryan could beat up guys like batista or randy orton
>>1169306
Yeah that makes the most sense, but how then Vince couldn't brag about beating Ted Turner
Most people misunderstand Vince Russo.
He was a writer than understood internal consistency and how that kept people hooked. He was great at making sure storylines paid off and that loose threads were kept to a minimum and also made sure that everyone had something to do. No matter how wild, weird and downright bad some his worse ideas were they for the most part had a logical base. He also had plenty of good ideas. He was a writer that could churn out a lot of work but needed someone to come in and tighten him up when he got a bit erratic.
He also understood the talent and wrote to their strengths AND their characters. He's a much better writer than people give him credit for. The fact that he understands fundamentals about plot alone makes him better than the morons they have in creative these days.
He's extremley underrated for these things.
That said Vince Russo without oversight is a disaster.
The two Vinces were yin and yang. Russo being the far more creative of the two and McMahon being light years ahead in when to tighten the reigns (no pun intended) and pull the ship to calmer waters and of course actually run a business.
They're both highly flawed HUMAN BEANS but to discredit Russo's MASSIVE contribution is misguided. He has been buried a lot unfairly for his hand in making wrestling as compelling as it "could" be.
You know what i'm saying bro? BRO...bro...bro..bro bro brobrobrobro.
He sucks because Jim Cornette said so, WWE needs to let Jim Cornette book everything
>>1167610
>Vince Russo is solely responsible for the attitude era
I see we have another "true believer" on our hands.
>implying Russo was the reason for the huge ratings in the late 90's
Stone Cold, The Rock, Mankind and Mr. McMahon are the biggest reasons why, none of which Russo had anything to do with
>>1169715
>none of which Russo had anything to do with
But that's wrong you fucking retard.
Which isn't to say Russo deserves full credit for those characters or more credit than the performers, but he was indeed one of the main collaborators when it came to those characters.
In Beyond the Mat, there's a scene of Russo's right hand man Ed Ferrara literally going over The Rock's promo with Rocky word for word at Royal Rumble 1999.
>>1168727
>WCW200
>full control
they had control for 3 months intially, the raitings went up, then they fired him
>>1169715
He definitely made everyone have a gimmick. Road Dogg, Godfather, Val Venis all popped the crowd and kept them hot for the rest of the main stuff
>>1169715
Yeah, you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about
>>1169715
Rock, Jericho, Austin, would be nothing without russo
>>1169881
> raitings
>>1169715
>Robert De Niro came up with Travis Bickle by himself! Who is Paul Schrader?! Movies are real!!!
You are a fucking mark.
>>1167627
You don't think it is ironic to give him credit for successes and not failures?
>>1168876
Bischoff booking.
I think it was due to the whole Rock hype being at its peak back then.
>>1168829
>I'd rather have ironic shit booking I can laugh at which tanks rating rather than have totally predictable and stale shit booking I can't even laugh at which tanks ratings
ftfy
Would rather watch Russo swerves all year rather than knowing how booking will be for the next 4 months and just wait for the PPVs to get it over with.
>>1171384
I can agree with that.
>tfw this is such a dark timeline that we'd much rather get swerved by Russo than watch current WWE
>>1167781
Dixie didn't even give Heyman creative control at all when he was open for offer, so how much creative control do you think Russo had?
>>1168140
And the product has been shit in all kinds of ways ever since, so it's not like you can argue anything.
>inb4 - "muh WWE Network for 9.99"
Except you get with it all kinds of pseudo-reality shows and behind-the-scenes, comedy, skits, etc.
So it's only logical that soccer moms will subscribe to watch Total Divas, meanwhile the teens reading Glamour will watch Breaking Point, or whatever the fuck the new stuff is called.
And then you have the neckbeards that can't properly torrent NXT episodes, so they will buy the subscription, too.
The product is breaking down on itself and the only things saving it from dying off are: a) stretching the Network show variety as far as possible b) no competition
Haters can say what they want. The Vince Russo era is widely considered to be the most entertaining period in pro wrestling history.
And people say, "yeah but the WWE had big-name talent like Stone Cold and The Rock when Russo was around." Yes, but WWE has big-name talent, now. And they're still dropping the ball.
A lot of his ideas sucked, but overall, Vince Russo was fantastic, and I would love to see him back as the head writer.
For anyone dissing russo, go back and watch a raw on the network from late 98 to early 99 and tell me that isn't the most enjoyable shit you've seen in ages. His style is all over it, you have segments, promos, vignettes coming at you at breakneck speed, it's pretty exhilarating television. The matches usually don't last too long but TV matches don't have to, they were always just used to build up to the quality stuff on the pay per views where the agents got their time to shine. Who ever remembers raw matches anyway? I'd love to see russo and ferrara at the helm again, russos said on his website and podcasts how he'd book the current product and it sounds 20x more entertaining than the shit they put out now
>>1167610
The breakneck ADHD pacing of Russo and the concurrent popularity of "car-wreck" TV like Jerry Springer Show bolstered WWF into the mainstream consciousness in the late 90s. But concessions were made--mostly to the actual presence of wrestling. Both the quality of matches in terms of in-ring work and length of televised matches were shrunk to allow Russo to overwrite the proto-reality show segments that define the Attitude Era.
Look--I was 10 or so when the Russo era of WWF was cooking. I am grotesquely nostalgic for that era. The storylines were salacious, the talent 'roided out, the hardcore division unthinkable for television standards at the time and the spectacle was fantastic. But, now that I have sampled other wrestling (indy, NJPW, Joshi, AAA/CML), I realize that the Attitude Era had very little worth while matches to revisit when divorced from the razzle-dazzle of the man soap opera in tights.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4P3Waviy0k&nohtml5=False
>>1171445
>and I would love to see him back as the head writer.
Go watch his WCW or TNA runs then.
(Chuck-bucket not included.)
>>1171603
What a pathetic bitter old man cornette is. Russo has repeatedly said he has no issue with cornette and has publicly invited him to contact him to air out and clear up any grievances he has with him yet he refuses to, probably because he doesn't have the balls to and only likes to talk shit about people behind their backs. Just a pathetic sad old man.
>>1171626
Not-for-nothing, but Russo fucking LOVES to play victim and it's really easy to extend an olive branch when you know it'll never be accepted.
>>1171628
Cornette talks disparagingly about so many people though and the only reason he's so vocal and outspoken is because he never intends on actually airing out his differences face to face with people like a man. He is well overdue a smack by at least or dozen or so people in the industry he's tirelessly talked shit about on all his platforms and I'm surprised no one has truly put him in his place yet
>>1171635
I didn't say Cornette was right, just pointing out that Vic Venom is almost surely being disingenuous.
>>1171635
You know Russo doesn't actually want to make up with anyone? He's just trying to look like he's a poor misunderstood guu.
>>1171662
Whether that's true or not, what exactly is Russo supposed to do in this situation without getting heat from smart internet fans? The only other choices are he either stoops to Cornette's level and starts flinging shit back at him, or he just avoids talking about the whole issue entirely, which is actually what he has been mostly doing if you listen to his podcasts. The only time he really addresses the whole Cornette issue is when one of his guests, a listener or the person interviewing him brings it up, he actually rarely if ever brings up the issue of his own volition if you actually listen to his podcasts, and even when JR or Kayfabe commentaries or whoever ask him about it you get the sense that he geniunely doesn't enjoy talking about it. So I'd be inclined to believe he isn't just taking this stance for sympathy and that he geniunely just wants the hatched buried
>>1171690
>what exactly is Russo supposed to do in this situation without getting heat from smart internet fans?
Stop attention-whoring and disappear forever?
>>1171714
He's entitled to make a living, no one is forcing you to listen to his podcast or watch his interviews.
>>1171722
I hear Pizza Hut is hiring, but knowing Russo he'd deliver newspapers instead because SWERVE, bro.
Russo's podcast is entertaining and he has some great insight. Looking back, the Russo era in WCW was very entertaining. Some of it didn't work, but sometimes you need to take a risk to strike gold. I'm a fan of his now.
>>1171598
>Both the quality of matches in terms of in-ring work and length of televised matches were shrunk to allow Russo to overwrite the proto-reality show segments that define the Attitude Era.
The whole point of RAW is to sell PPVs where the matches should be longer. Matches on RAW/Smackdown SHOULD BE FUCKING SHORT.
This is why PPV rates were shrinking when you were giving away 30 minute hot matches on TV.
>>1172357
Also wanted to add that this is why smarks should never be bookers, cause they'd have daily 60 minute Iron Man matches on RAW.
>>1171584
A lot of it is so simple and it just comes out of his mouth like it's nothing.
>A few weeks ago when HHH was leaving the arena with Stephanie and Roman left him lying, wy did he just walk off? Just have him get into the car and drive off with Stephanie to keep the viewer interested.
A crazy idea. How would you justify it? So what - it's surprising and you would definitely want to see where it goes. He could have just dumped her in the middle of nowhere and totalled the car. Still would have deepened the feud.
>>1171584
>Who ever remembers raw matches anyway?
I remember that Undertaker VS Jeff Hardy match. One of the GOAT matches, but why the hell wasn't it on a PPV?
>>1171626
Why would Cornette bury the hatchet? He's a retard whose ideas are about half a century out of date and whose greatest claim to fame is carrying around a tennis racket and falling off a scaffold. I'm shocked anybody gives a shit what he thinks about anything and the only thing he has are his bitter rants.
>>1167610
Vince Russo was great in WWF because he had a filter. That filter was Vincent Kennedy McMahon.
In both WCW and TNA, Vince was effectively allowed to run riot, and both times it was a hot fucking mess.
The thing with Russo is he has a very scatter gun approach. Even today in interviews he still lays down SOME ideas for wrestling that aren't that bad... but mostly his ideas and views are shit.
That's why he needs someone like a Vince McMahon to filter though
>>1172405
People talk about Vince being a filter, but SO MANY BAD IDEAS STILL GOT TO TV
Even post Russo, a ton of bad ideas got to TV thanks to Vince.
>>1169343
I never bought the whole "Russo was only good with McMahon as a filter" bs.
>>1172405
What is this filter shit? He was writing 104 hours of TV a year. Have you ever tried writing a single page of original material? How much shit do you think Vinny Mac was filtering out? Do you even have a clue how the creative process works?
He absolutely was not allowed to run riot in WCW and TNA. He had the book in WCW for three months and he stablised ratings following a massive freefall under Bischoff. His later stint in WCW and his time in TNA was always in collaboration with others or on a larger booking committee.
No offence but you need to get a clue bro.
>>1172413
>SO MANY BAD IDEAS STILL GOT TO TV
Oh absolutely. As much as I am a massive mark for the Attitude Era, it was chock full of total fucking crap. I always think of the dog kennel from hell match for some reason. Maybe that is the very limit of exceptionally dumb shit for me.
At the same time the main event scene was white fucking hot, better than it has ever really been. Again, some shit was weird... really fucking weird (Big Boss getting hung in a cell), but mostly it was great
>>1172428
>No offence but you need to get a clue bro.
>bro
None taken Vince.
>>1172432
The dogs match was ridiculous but the actual plot with Boss Man kidnapping Snow's dog and feeding it to him was one of the funniest things I'd ever seen on TV. And this was for some throwaway midcard feud.
>Hey Al, do me a favor? Try not to get one of them paws stuck between your teeth?
Daily reminder that Vince Russo is the greatest writer in the history of professional wrestling.
>>1174740
That's not Kreski.
>>1174763
>le storyboard man
>le jericho spills coffee on kane man
Not enough sponteneity. Not enough surprises.
>>1174793
>sponteneity
Even fucking Big Dick Johnson is better than Vic Venom
>>1168930
Shit was actually looking up, then Edge got taken out of the picture, ECW half-flopped, half-withered under the pressure of appealing to a large audience, yet stay TV safe for the most part.
It couldn't happen. ECW was known for being loud, vulgar, and obscene. Not all of those things were exactly appealing at the time.
>>1172426
It's because Vince wasn't a filter. He was a wall to bounce things off of, and to say what had worked and what hadn't. Less filter, more partner.
>>1167669
Except Nitro removed the third hour under Russo, so they automatically should have been bumped up by about 0.5 in ratings. Since the ratings stagnated, he really did lost a substantial amount.
Russo is only considered a genius when he was at the WWF because his ideas were filtered. When his ideas are unfiltered (WCW, TNA), you can see why they were.
>>1175101
The third hour was removed in his final weeks, right when the rating hit a 3.5 (the average RAW rating in the run-up to Mania XIV with Tyson).
You haven't got a clue. Fuck off.
>>1169343
If Russo is such a fucking great writer, why can't he get a job writing for you know, actual movies, like he clearly wants to?
Say what you like about Cornette but he's absolutely right in this respect. He's just a typical new york jewbag who bullshitted his way into a failing company by tricking a vunerable, old, out of touch man into believing that he's a creative genius, when he's less than fucking B movie tier in reality.
Tell me, how many of Val Venis' or Godfather's moves can you remember without looking them up first? Not a lot I'm betting. His style of writing was great at getting ridiculous gimmicks over, but all he was really doing was promoting abhorrence and debauchery in a fucking kids TV program. It's fucking South Park tier dogshit.
As for your point about him writing detailed stories for every single character, that is not good writing. You need a supporting cast and minor characters to get the main guys over with the audience. It's why movies with too many big actors always bomb.
>>1175214
>As for your point about him writing detailed stories for every single character, that is not good writing. You need a supporting cast and minor characters to get the main guys over with the audience. It's why movies with too many big actors always bomb.
When has the main event scene in WWE ever been more over than in the Attitude era?
>>1175582
Yes but how much extra do you think Russo wrote that was rejected by McMahon? Do you have any idea how long it takes to write two hours of TV?
>>1175214
WWE isn't a movie you fucking retard. The undercard has to have autonomous story. There's literally nothing they can do to support the stories of the main event. It's more like a soap opera, which has an entirely different narrative form to movies.
We all get that you've read McKee or whatever but get your head out of your ass.
Interesting fact from Russo's latest podcast:
The main event of WrestleMania XV was supposed to be Austin/Rock/Mankind in a three-way but Michaels worked Austin into a shoot and made him get Vince to rebook it as a one-on-one. The three-way would have been way more interesting in my honest opinion.
WCW Buyrates and attendances didn't improve with Russo though didn't they not?
>>1178406
Buyrates dropped when he took charge
But hey, muh ratings is all that matters
>>1178304
> Russo's podcast
> fact
top lel. Foley covered this in his first book in 1999.
>>1178420
Typical buyrate under Bischoff '98 was getting to ~50% of its value the year before. Under Russo it was cloer to ~60%. So another relative success actually.
>>1175242
>STILL implying that Russhit was solely responsible for the attitude area
>>1176476
You missed another one of my points, in the fucking same point. All his style of writing is good for is getting ridiculous gimmicks, not the actual WRESTLERS. Val Venis and Godfather being case in point. So nobody benefits except Russhit when he wrongly claims sole responsibility for their success.
Read the whole post next time dipshit.
>>1178610
>All his style of writing is good for is getting ridiculous gimmicks, not the actual WRESTLERS. Val Venis and Godfather being case in point.
Val and Godfather were massively over. I have absolutely no fucking idea what you're talking about.
>>1178592
That literally didn't answer the question.
