I'm quit curious about ninjutsu, taijutsu or bujinka and I like to train it in the future (I'm too old to become New Naruto...).
I'm looking at Bujinka school nearby but I'm worrying about it is another McDojo.
I'm also looking at other ninja school that call Banke Shinobi no Den founding by Jinichi Kawakami but their schools is only located in Spain and Japan.
ninjas are fictional and there is no fighting system associated with them
if ninjas did exist they wouldn't have much need for hand to hand combat if they were any good at being ninjas
it's the same reason they don't do more than a few basic moves in the military. if you are on a mission to kill someone and end up in a boxing match you fucked up somewhere along the line.
>>1121869
>I'm going to ninja school
Do you realize how retarded you are
>>1121869
same mcdojo symptoms as anywhere else.
impe bujinkan doesn't seem that bad except the lack of resistant sparring and conditioning, so be sure to find a buddy and train hard outside of class. Also judo and bjj are great supplements with a lot of skill overlap.
>>1121892
Gosh Kristi, why do you always do this. Its a semantic arguement that has been beat to death several times. We're talking about japanese unarmed combat techniques by whatever name you want to call them.
In my experience at least 90% of the buj's material comes from Gyokko-ryu, Koto-ryu, Shinden Fudo-ryu and Takagi Yoshin-ryu, all of which are verifiable styles of jujutsu.
Since Takamatsu and Hatsumi put a ninja spin on it everyone went bonkers but we all know its the same ole stuff.
>>1121869
bujinkan is not a respected martial art. Its a poor mishmash of older schools combined with some made up stuff
>>1121892
This guy.
Also basic Japanese jujutsu is probablt what they used. Bujinkan is fun roleplaying but has no established connection to real ninja or shinobi.
So find a JJJ school, or judo. Bujinkan if you really want that sweet RP action. But friendly reminder, if you go out and are active its probably the best style for you.
>>1121869
Actual ninja here. I am posting anonymously to keep my identity hidden but can confirm that OP is a faggot.
>>1125936
I am also a Ninja and I just wanted to confirm this guys identity.
(We're in the same ninja clan.)
>>1126308
こんにちは
>>1121892
Ninjas aren't fictional, since spies and mercenaries for hire from Koga and Iga actually did exist during the Warring States period. That said, they were spies and assassins, not mystical warriors who could run on the surface of water. Their skills were mundane, and included things like being a good shot with a bow and arrow, establishing and maintaining a cover story, and stabbing a sleeping victim lol.
They also specialised in irregular/guerilla warfare tactics that the samurai class would consider dishonourable.
Ninjas are not fiction. But fictional accounts of ninjas are bullshit and exaggeration.
>>1126611
Some recovered Ninja suits from that time (reinforced wools and leathers, overall very scrappy), alongside the fact that some weapons they were known to use were things like sickles and kunais (widely used as farming tools) leads me to believe they were less spies and assassins and more peasant guerilla militia. There's not a lot of actual recorded evidence linking actual ninjas to the more glamorous stuff like spying and assassinations so while there might also have been some of that most of those stories are probably just embelishments made by a population that had no previous contact with guerilla warfare of that nature.
>>1125936
>>1126308
OP here
>>1121892
As far I know ninja exist but more as mercenaries and special force soldiers than spy and assassin. They use same kind of martial skills as samurai.
>>1122108
>>1122312
I had read about the most Bujinka school lack sparring just because it is "dangerous". That is why I'm little sceptic about Bujinka.
>>1125931
The reason I want to learn ninja skills is more or less gaining understanding about ninja and their life.
>>1125936
>>1126308
Jinichi Kawakami said that ninja have no place in modern society thank to guns, internet and better medicines.
>>1126611
>>1126675
You know a lot about ninja fact. Do you have any good tips about ninja school in japan or good book about ninja history?
>>1126846
Books? Not really, all I've read is loose articles here and there. Just check the wikipedia page for ninja and work from their sources, museum websites are also good starting points. As for schools, I really, really doubt there are any legit schools around for that, even in Japan, that actually teach legit historical ninja techniques, partly due to how little historical records there are of that and how hard it is to separate fact from myth in many aspects.
>>1126846
Kawakami is the only person I know of who MIGHT have some legitimacy. the Bujinkan's ninja arts were made up by the current heads teacher Takamatsu. Takamatsu also trained in a number of legitimate arts. however these are not maintained as distinct systems.
You must understand that classical Japanese martial arts (koryu) are more than sets of techniques but have psychological elements which are considered essential. not maintaining them as distinct entities means they are not the same art.
Many classical Japanese arts lack formal sparring, but they are different from arts like the bujinkan in several important respects
>>1126611
Almost all forms of unconventional warfare fall under the modern scholarly definition of shinobijutsu It is questionable however to equate the guerrilla fighters of iga as all being ninja. Samurai often made use of arson and suprise attacks, but the iga seemed to have specialized in such warfare thanks to the terrain of their home province
![[youshikibi] Kyary Pamyu Pamyu - Ninjari Bang Bang (1280x720 h264 AAC) [1c5220c7].mp4_snapshot_03.14_[2016.04.02_18.20.40].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/y5xZBAb.jpg "[youshikibi] Kyary Pamyu Pamyu - Ninjari Bang Bang (1280x720 h264 AAC) [1c5220c7].mp4_snapshot_03.14_[2016.04.02_18.20.40].jpg")
>>1126846
>Jinichi Kawakami
Whelp, just when we thought the line of Koga was dead a new claimant appears. Today he quietly prepares himself for the day when he shall battle Ashida Kim and Christa Jacobson to prove himself the rightful heir.
He actually seems like a cool guy tbph. He can't be any more illegitimate than anyone else. If I were you I'd just pick the one that's most convenient and that doesn't make you feel like a fraud. My wager is that they're all pretty similar in concept and principle.
Bullshido has several archived threads that go pretty in depth on researching the bujinkan/takamatsu lineage.
For books, I've read Gingetsu Itoh and Anthony Cummins books. They seem pretty reasonable, but I later learned that Cummins has his fair share of controversy too. So go figure.
TL;DR
Everything about ninjutsu is rife with controversy, the only thing you can really trust is hard sparring. So pick one and try to use it in MMA to validate yourself. Or cobble together your own version of non-historical but still functional parkour+hema+judo+survival+nightops.
Good luck Kimmy, and don't forget to post results.
I know it's a meme, but pipe-bomb fu is literally what they used
Here's what actual ninjas did
>dress normally and eavesdrop
>hide in bathroom with some farming tool and sneak attack ronin that came in
>plant explosives ocassionally
>>1126846
>They use same kind of martial skills as samurai.
Most of samurai martial arts are basically ancient krav maga.
"How do I get to my sword?"
"How do I handle someone grabbing my hand while I draw my sword?"
"How do I fight someone without disgracing myself and standing up in front of my superior?"
>>1126611
>That said, they were spies and assassins, not mystical warriors who could run on the surface of water.
Haha yeah guys, they definitely didn't have powers! I am being honest.
>>1131639
>Most of samurai martial arts are basically ancient krav maga.
Not really, not at all. while krav is a crash course in the basics of surviving an assault, most samurai arts were far more in depth, they could cover a wide variety of combat types (duels, assaults, warfare) and even covered the psychological elements of fighting.
Many of the scenarios they practiced were more about general principles than something likely to actually happen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGTqC0omZvs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHa9KUSCn3s
>>1132182
What is the school of the first video ? Got a brief look at it and some techniques looked like Jigen-ryu but since there is no en-kyo...
>>1132248
its a variant of shinkage ryu from Kyushu, the higo or Hikita-den shinkage ryu
>>1132462
Damn that was really a brief look then... Then again I mostly recognize shinkage ryu by the peculiar shinai, this and laziness, thanks anyway.
I've been in the bujinkan for 11 years. Did judo 10 years before joining the buj.
Bujinkan taijutsu is, in my opinion the best martial art, but i should add a caveat.
There is no syllabus, no curriculum and no standards. Every instructor can do whatever they want and the grandmaster doesn't care (well he does, but doesn't do anything about it).
This has resulted in a unique organisational culture. A huge chunk of bujinkan practitioners are shit, and many instructors are bad, and many dojo have a cult mentality, BUT you will also find that the bujinkan has some of the most skilled martial artists in the world, the widest scope of martial skills and the most efficient and effective techniques anywhere.
Bujinkan is like university. It has great faculties like engineering and science, but it also has arts and philosophy. If you try to join the bujinkan without primary or secondary schooling you will not understand anything and you might get hood winked into starting a gender studies course.
Styles like judo and boxing are primary education. Jujutsu or arnis are secondary education.
I highly recommend a decade of other training like judo and a few years exploring other styles like jujutsu before considering the bujinkan.
There is not much too gain from bujinkan training without a foundational education in martial arts - which the bujinkan doesn't generally provide (but as i said before, there are buj instructors who do provide it).
Martial arts is a long road with very few rewards. It takes decades to get good and there is always someone better than you who can smash you (and will).
I wish i had dedicated my life to a skill i could monetize. Turn back now while you can.
>>1132516
I'm not sure how you can even call a school with no curriculum or standards an art.
>Bujinkan taijutsu is, in my opinion the best martial art,
I would challenge you to post even a single video of bujinkan weapons that stands up to the vids here>>1132182
or a jujutsu demo that compares to thishttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejbRbrP6l2c
>>1132516
>a skill i could monetize
b-but that's why to teach right?
>>1132504
there are a few lines of Shinkage ryu that date from pretty far back, that diverge from the owari line in some major ways. Ive seen a demo of edo shinkage ryu once and they were not even using shinai, you could see the similarities, but it was a completely different art
>>1133136
Bujinkan is a conglomerate of schools. The 9 official schools each have their own syllabus, but there is no official curriculum (but there are some unofficial ones).
Some instructors teach the 9 schools as is, issue is the kata descriptions from the source material are vague and sometimes wrong or mistranslated. Which results in the propogation of poor techniques.
Hatsumi is a collector and has the densho (scrolls) of many other schools, japanese and otherwise. Some families have even given him stewardship of their schools.
So the bujinkan takes material from outside sources and assimilates it into bujinkan budo taijutsu.
I'm on my phone at the moment, but the video you linked had some pretty basic jujutsu tachiwaza. I'll link a suitable video when i hey home.
>>1133484
I taught for 4 years. I did 3 classes a week and paid for a indoor basketball court. I made around 18k a year less expenses.
My world class ex-olympic judo instructor was teaching full time 7 days a week and making 200k a year. He told me once that some years he didn't even make enough to cover his own salary.
Martial arts doesn't make money.
>>1135967
Japanese martial arts lineages are like a tree. You can often find dozens of the same school under different lineages. The bujinkan takagi yoshin ryu school has half a dozen different lineages, one of which is hatsumi's. I've seen other takagi lineages and they are kind of similar but at the same time very different. Each instructor has the right to go off and start their own school after achieving menkyo.
Just the way it is.
>>1148723
>So the bujinkan takes material from outside sources and assimilates it into bujinkan budo taijutsu.
What you just described is not considered praiseworthy in Japanese circles
>Japanese martial arts lineages are like a tree. You can often find dozens of the same school under different lineages. The bujinkan takagi yoshin ryu school has half a dozen different lineages, one of which is hatsumi's. I've seen other takagi lineages and they are kind of similar but at the same time very different. Each instructor has the right to go off and start their own school after achieving menkyo.
of course but that doesn't mean each line is as good as the others, and if you do not maintain the line as a pure entity it really stops being takagi yoshin ryu and becomes something very different
>>1152474
Bujinkan is not praised in Japanese martial arts circles. It's viewed as a joke in fact by many Japanese martial art organisations.
If a line tries to stay pure it ends up like Charles II of Spain, an inbred mess. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_II_of_Spain) This describes many Japanese Koryu today. All form, no function.
Bujnkan has many issues and it's a young organisation by martial arts standards. There are growing pains and things are going to get worse until they get better.
That being said, there are a group of us trying to reform the system and the organisation. I think the benefits of the organisation outweigh the drawbacks.
It's just not going to happen overnight.
Cont'd
To the OP.
(These statistics were taken from a sample of 500 participants)
Less than 0.2% of Bujinkan members stay with the organisation for more than 6 years. Less than 0.05% make it to 5th dan and less than 0.01% stick with the organisation after 5th dan. (BBT 5th dan takes the equivalent training of a BJJ black or a Judo 3rd dan)
Benefits of the Bujinkan
- Nine core schools each with a unique history and style of movement and strategy
- Other assimilated schools/sports science/external sources
- Countless weapons (Swords, spears, knives, guns, axes, hammers, etc.)
- Universal movement set that can be applied generally to situations, weapons and tactics
- Covers every range of fighting (missile weapons, guns, melee, grappling, striking, groundwork etc.)
- Many LEO, Military, Government members with service history/ real life experience
- Access to everything when you walk in the door - nothing held back
Drawback of the Bujinkan
- Jack of all trades, master of none. (Never get good at any one thing)
- High percentage of bad practitioners
- Lots of politics, backstabbing, backbiting
- Need to travel to Japan at least once every 2 years (once you get to shodan)
- No curriculum, no syllabus, no quality control, no standards
- No cute girls (TKD is the best place for this)
- Source material is vague, mistranslated, outright lies (sometimes)
- Have to learn Japanese eventually
- Internet shits on your style (justified imo)
- Limited to no sparring
- Not fitness orientated
Ah well, could be worse. You could join a Kung Fu school...
>>1126866
True, it is difficult to find proper record about ninja or shinobu. That is why I planned to visit the Japan for second time and checking out the ninja sites like Iga and Koka/Koga.
>>1127564
I admired Kawakami because he is honest about that modern society don't need ninjas.
I'm aware that most japanese martial arts have strong traditions than modern martial arts like MMA.
>>1127883
I will look at the recommend books. But I'm thinking about training either Muay Thai, Judo or BJJ before moving on ninja arts.
>>1132516
>>1148723
>>1152774
>>1152789
Thank for info about Bujinkan, I gain more understanding about them.
>- No cute girls (TKD is the best place for this)
I will make mental note about it.... Maybe start training TKD...
>>1152789
>- Jack of all trades, master of none. (Never get good at any one thing)
This is a meme, and Jack can be good at many things given that he spends enough time practicing.
Not to mention how Jack is still excellent at fighting, which is a general thing, and all that he practices.
Saying he doesn't get good is just frankly stupid and wrong.
It's a stupid meme and it needs to stop.
>>1152774
>Bujinkan is not praised in Japanese martial arts circles. It's viewed as a joke in fact by many Japanese martial art organizations.
This we can agree on, Even the aikido people can say: at least we're not the ninja guys
>If a line tries to stay pure it ends up like Charles II of Spain, an inbred mess. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_II_of_Spain) This describes many Japanese Koryu today. All form, no function.
Your right about this, though the bujinkan by contrast is largely bad form and little function.
contrast takagi yoshin ryu with the related hontai yoshin ryu, those guys are cross training in modern arts like kendo while reviving lost material in the curriculum such as the iaijutsu, all while maintaining a strong line of jujutsu. They might draw on outside sources in order to gather information and refine their curriculum, but the core remains what it always was.
As Ellis amdur has said Koryu are just collections of techniques, they are distint systems of physical and phyco-spiritual organization, and you can no more study nine of them than you can equally love nine different wives. Having nine schools is not an advantage, its a detriment unless someone has taken all that information and created a new, pure system separate from all the old material.
>at being said, there are a group of us trying to reform the system and the organisation. I think the benefits of the organisation outweigh the drawbacks.
The bujinkan like most japanese martial arts organizations is top down. So unless your buddy buddy with Hatsumi, and he is listening to your ideas and implementing them your not going to reform it.
>>1154328
Are not just collections
>>1154328
And as Amdur said (iirc), Hatsumi claims to have scrolls of Koryu but refused to show them to legitimate members of said koryu, claiming property of something that isn't his to begin with and refusing to share it with people who have all the rights to see the scrolls, some who have menkyo kaiden.
So he is either a liar or extremely rude and dishonest to other people involved in the japanese martial arts, which doesn't really help his reputation.
>>1154838
From what I remember, the point amdur was making was that Hatsumi does has scrolls that correspond to some of his claims. it was part of a larger post on the differences between koryu and Hatsumi's system.
There was a time when the ninja crowd was pretty adamant that they were koryu, They seem less vocal about it now, but they talk about koryu all the time off line.
>>1154328
>Your right about this, though the bujinkan by contrast is largely bad form and little function.
Mileage may vary. There are many bujinkan practitioners who have bad form, but the techniques themselves are solid. The main issue here is that many techniques are left up to interpretation. Because the scope of the Bujinkan is so vast there are few people who have seen most of the techniques from the 9 schools, those practitioners who haven't make it up or interpret it as they go along.
This is why BBTers often talk about feeling. There are so many techniques it isn't efficient to memorize them all, and they keep changing. Hence, we try to capture a feeling and apply it like a universal equation to techniques to get close to the style of movement of the ryuha.
>contrast takagi yoshin ryu with the related hontai yoshin ryu, those guys are cross training in modern arts like kendo while reviving lost material in the curriculum such as the iaijutsu, all while maintaining a strong line of jujutsu. They might draw on outside sources in order to gather information and refine their curriculum, but the core remains what it always was.
Takagi and Hontai Takagi have all the same techniques, it's just the interpretation that is different. The big difference between Bujinkan and Koryu practice, for instance, is Bujinkan is all about flow and seamless transition - which often conflicts with Koryu's "do it exactly this way" mentality.
There are quite a few Bujinkan practitioners who do practice koryu on the side. Whether it helps them or not I couldn't say.
>>1154328
>As Ellis amdur has said Koryu are just collections of techniques, they are distint systems of physical and phyco-spiritual organization, and you can no more study nine of them than you can equally love nine different wives. Having nine schools is not an advantage, its a detriment unless someone has taken all that information and created a new, pure system separate from all the old material.
That is not an apt analogy. Ryuha are not like wives, they are more like tools. This reflects the fundamental difference in thinking between Bujinkan and Koryu thinking. Koryu practitioners have absolute loyalty to their school and strive to maintain the practices and traditions of their line. Bujinkan practitioners on the other hand are utilitarian. We take what is good and throw away the bad. The sub-issue here however is that each BBT practitioner is unique and has a subjective view on good and bad - so you end up with a melting pot of methodologies and ideologies.
Even I'm guilty of this. There are many things my fellow practitioners do which I think is bad. My personal line of Bujinkan is based on scientific analysis and dissemination which I use to justify my thinking and actions - but that doesn't make much of a difference when my fellow practitioners don't believe in science and justify with the meta-physical... see what I'm getting at.
>The bujinkan like most japanese martial arts organizations is top down. So unless your buddy buddy with Hatsumi, and he is listening to your ideas and implementing them your not going to reform it.
A few years ago a bujinkan practitioner, who was also a close personal student of Hatsumi's, got on the BJJ/MMA bandwagon. He was also a BJJ blackbelt and had close ties to the Gracies. He approached Hatsumi about introducing sparring, tournaments, challenge matches (the Gracie method pretty much) to change the Bujinkan.
You know what happened? Nothing. It's just the way it is.
Cont'd.
>>1154328
>The bujinkan like most japanese martial arts organizations is top down. So unless your buddy buddy with Hatsumi, and he is listening to your ideas and implementing them your not going to reform it.
That being said, I am close to one of Hatsumi's closest students - and he is changing it in his own way. Reform is a slow process and will take years. Myself, my instructor, and our little association are making changes bit by bit, it's only a matter of time until they take hold.
>>1154838
The story has been distorted.
Hatsumi is in possession of a number of stolen Koryu scrolls, which were passed to him. Stealing other schools scrolls in Feudal Japan was a common practice, and these just got passed down.
The way it goes was the head of Katori Shinto Ryu approached Hatsumi to recover a stolen KSR scroll which was taken hundreds of years ago. The head of KSR justified his position by saying it was part of their history. Hatsumi countered by saying the stolen scroll was part of his history also, and refused to hand it over.
This pissed off the head of KSR royally and the story filtered down to Amdur, albeit in a different form.
>>1156925
The 9 schools of the Bujinkan are koryu, but they aren't 'koryu'.
'Koryu' is like 'MMA', it's a brand - a way of doing things. Bujinkan isn't practiced like other 'koryu', so it isn't 'koryu'.
Koryu also means 'old school'. When BBTers talk about koryu they are using the literal translation - literally old school. So the 9 ryuha are koryu.
It's a semantic issue.
>>1162833
Takagi and Hontai Takagi have all the same techniques, it's just the interpretation that is different. The big difference between Bujinkan and Koryu practice, for instance, is Bujinkan is all about flow and seamless transition - which often conflicts with Koryu's "do it exactly this way" mentality.
This statement demonstrates you have no idea what your talking about.
>That is not an apt analogy. Ryuha are not like wives, they are more like tools. Th
This also, a ryu is not simply a set of tools, they are not collections of techniques going back to amdur who practices two different koryu, but does not recommend it, says he has to "shape shift between the two styles, because they're mentalities are fundamentally different, one is about getting in close and grappling, the other strives to always maintain perfect distance where you can strike but the enemy cant reach. He has said in freestyle he is mostly araki ryu.
In a koryu you change yourself so you become a man (or woman) of that koryu. the teachings are beaten into you (either figuratively or sometimes literally)
> scientific analysis and dissemination
Please dont throw the word science around out of context. You make it sound like your doing Japanese hema, ruthlessly testing techniques from different schools to make a functional system. I have no real problem with that though I would question why you would do that when there are already several functional systems, that aside Ive seen Hema stuff, both sparring and drills that really impressed me. yet to see that from bujinkan. what Ive seen leads me to believe that Hatsumi isn't that great, and none of his students are better than him.
>>1162865
>The 9 schools of the Bujinkan are koryu, but they aren't 'koryu'.
thats what you say, but a decade ago bujinkan people were arguing very strongly that they were studying koryu
>The story has been distorted.
Amdur approached him about an araki ryu scroll, many antique scrolls are actually for sale in japan,
>>1162871
>This statement demonstrates you have no idea what your talking about.
If I didn't, you wouldn't be discussing it with me.
>This also, a ryu is not simply a set of tools, they are not collections of techniques going back to amdur who practices two different koryu, but does not recommend it, says he has to "shape shift between the two styles, because they're mentalities are fundamentally different, one is about getting in close and grappling, the other strives to always maintain perfect distance where you can strike but the enemy cant reach. He has said in freestyle he is mostly araki ryu.
I disagree. The core concept of the Bujinkan is mushin. Programming the body to react in a certain way. There is nothing stopping you from having a different set of reactions based on different parameters.
Just doing something one way limits your tactical and strategic options. This is why 'koryu' are weak.
>In a koryu you change yourself so you become a man (or woman) of that koryu. the teachings are beaten into you (either figuratively or sometimes literally)
I know, and I disagree with this also. 'Koryu' want soldiers, who do as they are told. This is how to train soldiers.
Bujinkan wants thinkers and leaders, who do as they are told when they think it's the right thing to do. There isn't an accepted way to train leaders, the military make a good effort, but military leaders lack many characteristics of civilian leaders. The Bujinkan methodology is experimental and sometimes works, and sometimes doesn't.
>>1162871
>Please dont throw the word science around out of context. You make it sound like your doing Japanese hema, ruthlessly testing techniques from different schools to make a functional system. I have no real problem with that though I would question why you would do that when there are already several functional systems, that aside Ive seen Hema stuff, both sparring and drills that really impressed me. yet to see that from bujinkan. what Ive seen leads me to believe that Hatsumi isn't that great, and none of his students are better than him.
That is a good analogy. That is exactly what our little sub-group are doing. We take the techniques form the 9 schools and apply physics, sports science, history, sociology and anthropology and experiment, until we are happy with the result.
The reason you haven't seen our stuff is because we don't post it on the internet. I'm the only one in the group who thinks we should post videos, blogs and other content, but the others are disillusioned with the net. I'm the least senior in the group so it is polite to follow the seniors leads. Hence why I am posting anonymously.
>>1162881
>thats what you say, but a decade ago bujinkan people were arguing very strongly that they were studying koryu
I can't speak for others. There are so many sub-groups in the Bujinkan that there may well be someone doing as you say.
>Amdur approached him about an araki ryu scroll, many antique scrolls are actually for sale in japan,
Well, all I can say is the right of ownership trumps any other rights. Amdur could always try and steal it :P
>>1162962
>>1162988
If I didn't, you wouldn't be discussing it with me.
you know some of the history, but you really do not have the insider perspective, your an outsider contrasting what you do with what you think a koryu is about "doing things exactly the same" but that's only "shu" not "shu ha ri"
> There is nothing stopping you from having a different set of reactions based on different parameters.
you can learn how to use a gun, you can learn competitive grappling, but with koryu you will always retain a certain flavor when it is taught right, It does not limit you so much as a it gives you a proven template to work off of, but the whole concept of shu ha ri is about making the principle your own.
>I know, and I disagree with this also. 'Koryu' want soldiers, who do as they are told.
These are war schools, and as any good soldier knows you have to follow before you can lead, and if you have to think about what your going to do in the middle of a melee your chances are not very good, likewise training to use a sword one way, a spear another, and to grapple a third way is a very inefficient way to train someone. Now I am not saying cross training is bad, quite the contrary, but uniting everything on a psycho-spiritual level gives you an edge over someone without that.
as for leadership, there were koryu people at some of the highest levels of Japanese society, and most of the early systems originated among men of the mid to upper level bushi ranks.
>That is a good analogy. That is exactly what our little sub-group are doing
I really dont see the need for this, given that there are so many excellent living systems of Japanese weapons available, but if I was doing that I would not be using bujinkan as my main source of stuff, not when there are so many koryu and gendai arts with near open door policies
>>1132516
>A huge chunk of bujinkan practitioners are shit, and many instructors are bad, and many dojo have a cult mentality, BUT you will also find that the bujinkan has some of the most skilled martial artists in the world, the widest scope of martial skills and the most efficient and effective techniques anywhere.
So it's just that no one has encountered them, no successful pro fighter has ever even talked about training Buj, and there is no evidence of these "most skilled martial artists in the world" actually being able to fight.
Thanks for clearing that up.
>>1162988
>Well, all I can say is the right of ownership trumps any other rights.
But everything that comes about Koryu are properties of the soke. Thieving somehting and refusing access to it by the legitimate owner and practitioner of the art isn't property... but theft, which match the whole ninja thing for that matter.
>>1163029
>you know some of the history, but you really do not have the insider perspective, your an outsider contrasting what you do with what you think a koryu is about "doing things exactly the same" but that's only "shu" not "shu ha ri"
I am an outsider, but I've practiced koryu at a low level and that is what I saw. I am familiar with shu ha ri, Bujinkan in essence is ha ri without the shu.
>you can learn how to use a gun, you can learn competitive grappling, but with koryu you will always retain a certain flavor when it is taught right, It does not limit you so much as a it gives you a proven template to work off of, but the whole concept of shu ha ri is about making the principle your own.
Issue with templates is they are constantly out of date.
>These are war schools, and as any good soldier knows you have to follow before you can lead, and if you have to think about what your going to do in the middle of a melee your chances are not very good, likewise training to use a sword one way, a spear another, and to grapple a third way is a very inefficient way to train someone. Now I am not saying cross training is bad, quite the contrary, but uniting everything on a psycho-spiritual level gives you an edge over someone without that.
I agree with this and this is what the Bujinkan strives to do, a universal taijutsu which can be liberally applied to all things.
>as for leadership, there were koryu people at some of the highest levels of Japanese society, and most of the early systems originated among men of the mid to upper level bushi ranks.
You of all people should know that the Japanese don't know much about leadership. Being in high society doesn't make you a leader.
>>1163029
>I really dont see the need for this, given that there are so many excellent living systems of Japanese weapons available, but if I was doing that I would not be using bujinkan as my main source of stuff, not when there are so many koryu and gendai arts with near open door policies
Bujinkan follows a sengoku jidai mentality. You don't find this is koryu (ironically) or gendai budo.
>>1163072
Actually there were plenty of pro fighters who came to the Bujinkan to train and learn. Many high level Bujinkan practitioners were pro fighters decades ago.
These days there isn't much point because MMA has honed pro fighting to a fine art.
That aside, fighting inside and outside the ring are two very different things. Don't confuse a competitive match with a real fight.
>>1163168
Intellectual property has a finite life, regardless of what Disney are trying to push through US legislature. The soke that created the scrolls are long dead and any intellectual property rights are void centuries ago.
Amdur is not the legitimate owner of old scrolls from hundreds of years ago. He was no right to them. Legally or otherwise.
If the legal owner says no, it means no, regardless of how anyone feels about it.
Just because your ancestors ancestor * n stole something 300 years ago, doesn't mean you need to give it back.
>>1121869
Hey OP,
The guy with the pictures is a compulsive lier.
He pops up in every discussion about Ninjas and treis to impress people with his mediocre japanese skills.
He also claimed that he's a high raked Navy guy, then next time he got thown out, then he's a Judo genius, next time he makes up wierd theories that indicate he has no clue about Judo.
I think you should know this.
>>1163211
Intellectual property pass from one soke to another though, that's how it's suppose to work anyway.
Btw, It's not about even Amdur being the legitimate owner of the scrolls, it's Hatsumi refusing to let an Araki-ryu menkyo kaiden guy looking at Araki-ryu scrolls (looking at, not taking back note), when Hatsumi himself isn't even in the ryu-ha just because "it's my stuff and I don't show my stuff". It's just pure discourtesy that shouldn't be. I guess this one thing tells actually a lot on the guy... It's just douchey.
>>1163211
>That aside, fighting inside and outside the ring are two very different things. Don't confuse a competitive match with a real fight.
So you're one those people.
Nah homie, fighting in the ring has much more in common with fighting outside of the ring than what you do.
You can talk about "the streets" and "too deadly" all you want but that doesn't matter if you can't actually fight.
>>1163195
>Bujinkan in essence is ha ri without the shu.
Perhaps thats why it has not produce any practitioners of note, besides those who broke off and started there own school teaching the same material
>Issue with templates is they are constantly out of date.
Ive red the the esoteica of schools decended from chujo ryu, one of the oldest system, is remarkably consistent, even though they branched out into radically different systems, somehow core elements have remained relevant through hundreds of years of social change, and radically different ways of fighting.
>I agree with this and this is what the Bujinkan strives to do, a universal taijutsu which can be liberally applied to all things.
aside from the fact that is not what taijutsu means, intending to do that, and doing it are two different things
>You of all people should know that the Japanese don't know much about leadership. Being in high society doesn't make you a leader.
I hardly see a lack of leadership as the dominate problem of Japanese history, both then and now. They certainly had a large number of men qualified to lead other into battle
>Bujinkan follows a sengoku jidai mentality. You don't find this is koryu (ironically) or gendai budo.
This is nonsense, Aside from the question of whether such a mentality is even desirable, The mentality you descirbe (which I question is the same as Hatsumi's) has more in common with the meiji, taisho and early showa eras than the sengoku.
I could write a paper on how wrong you are, but I will just raise a few points.
1.The martial arts of the sengoku were all ryuha, or small systems of a similar nature practiced by a family or a small local group.
2.Rather than science they turned to the rituals of esoteric Buddhism for guidance,. especially when developing a new system one would engage in religious austerities in hopes of a vision
3. New systems were subject to life and death challenges
>>1163195
>I am an outsider, but I've practiced koryu at a low level and that is what I saw.
Cant generalize about koryu, especially after only a brief period.
which koryu?
>>1162988
>Hence why I am posting anonymously.
Are you sure it isn't because you don't want people to know that you're obsessed with ninjas, and you post lewd Japanese anime fetish images along with your posts on one of the most autistic websites on the internet?
>>1132516
Fuck off ninjer fag. I remember when you told everyone you were a Navy scientist ninja and then completely 180'd and said you were a world class judoka but didn't even know what joint an arm bar was applied to.
>>1121869
This nigga is trying to do shadow clones
>>1121869
Look into Genbukan op. It's led by Shoto Tanemura who used to be a part of Bujinkan. I am currently studying kokusai jujutsu at a Genbukan dojo and I fully recommend it. The ninjutsu everyone refers to is known as ninpo, and is a different art. They generally want you to work your way up in jujutsu before you start ninpo so you will have a good foundation going into it. I'm only a 6th kyu student, so I can't tell you what the higher levels entail, but so far I have learned rolls, break falls, strikes, kicks, wrist locks and throws. It's been a blast and it is no rainbow belt mcdojo. You work hard for your rank.
>>1167282
>>1121869
One more thing. Genbukan and Bujinkan do not spar because striking is not the focal point of the art. Many of the techniques we use cannot be used in tournaments or sparring because the intent is to disable, maim, or kill the opponent. We practice our techniques with good resistance. We learn the inner workings of the techniques, how to apply them, and practice them repeatedly. My friends and I do a little sparring in our own time and practice setting up the techniques.
Is there any cool ninja documentaries on youtube
>>1167250
Why would I screencap his posts?
Frankly I don't care what you think, I just wanted to give you a hint..
>>1167465
>>1167232
>>1166913
>>1166800
You just hatin' cause I'm a lyrical yakuzaka.
Word no jutsu.
>>1163281
If you had a collection of rare books and some douche rocked up to your house and said "Show me your books!", would you just let him in?
Yeah, nah.
>>1164629
Tell that to the x amount of professional fighters who got hit by a 2x4 in the back of the head because they were too focused on hitting the guy in front of them.
Sparring in a ring isn't real life.
>>1166122
>Perhaps thats why it has not produce any practitioners of note, besides those who broke off and started there own school teaching the same material
It's rude to overshadow your Soke. You should know that.
>Ive red the the esoteica of schools decended from chujo ryu, one of the oldest system, is remarkably consistent, even though they branched out into radically different systems, somehow core elements have remained relevant through hundreds of years of social change, and radically different ways of fighting.
Chujo Ryu? Relevant. Nigga please.
>aside from the fact that is not what taijutsu means, intending to do that, and doing it are two different things
体術 body technique? What else does it mean. Please enlighten me.
>I hardly see a lack of leadership as the dominate problem of Japanese history, both then and now. They certainly had a large number of men qualified to lead other into battle
Really? WW2 ring a bell.
>>1166122
>1.The martial arts of the sengoku were all ryuha, or small systems of a similar nature practiced by a family or a small local group.
Yes and isn't that how the Bujinkan is structured today?
>2.Rather than science they turned to the rituals of esoteric Buddhism for guidance,. especially when developing a new system one would engage in religious austerities in hopes of a vision
Religion was the forerunner to science. Many Buddhist and esoteric rituals were steeped in scientific thinking. We just replaced Gods with physics, chemistry and biology.
>3. New systems were subject to life and death challenges
I can agree with this difference. You wouldn't last very long in the first world by killing people left and right to prove your training.
>>1166126
Musou Jikiden Eishin ryu
>>1166913
Arm bar applies pressure to multiple joints depending on angle and position. I even know an armbar that can break a leg. Your point?
>>1167282
Genbukan is shit and you are shit for being in the Genbukan.
>>1167308
Unfortunately not. There isn't much real information about them aside from anecdotes and stories. I personally don't believe that the ninja, as we think of them today, even existed.
Ninja is a modern term, Shinobi was the ancient term and is written as 忍び, literally 'stealthy one' or 'enduring one'. From my research I believe Shinobi was a description rather than a role. Anyone, samurai, peasant, artisan, merchant, bandit, monk, could be labeled as a Shinobi if they undertook underhanded actions. For example if a samurai infiltrated a castle and committed assassination, he was labeled as a Shinobi. If an artisan sabotaged a bridge he was labeled as a Shinobi. If a farmer spied on the enemy, he was a Shinobi. There are other similar terms used through the ages in Japan which meant the same thing.
Similar to today how governments recruit agents. Anyone could become an agent or an informant, it's not so much a role or job that is chosen.
>>1168129
>Tell that to the x amount of professional fighters who got hit by a 2x4 in the back of the head
Nigger, LARPing as a ninja three nights a week isn't going to stop someone from braining you with a god damn 2x4.
>>1168182
>I even know an armbar that can break a leg.
No, you don't.
Because that's not an arm bar.
>>1127564
>have psychological elements which are considered essential
What does this mean? Like a philosophical code of ethics, or some sort of psychoanalytic theory on how the brain works?
Are you able to give a vague example of the nature of the psychological elements you're talking about without insulting anyone or revealing their super secret techniques?
>>1168129
>It's rude to overshadow your Soke. You should know that.
That does not mean there should not be a cadre of younger students fit to succeed him.
>Chujo Ryu? Relevant. Nigga please.
Itto ryu? toda ha boku ryu? some of the most famous, and strongest surviving schools of japanese martial arts? As far as Japanese martial arts cricles are concerned they are far far more relevant than the bujinkan
"体術" Almost always an alternate name for jujutsu.perhaps some specific koryu had an alternate definition, but its not in general use. perhaps the word heiho or hyoho would be more appropriate
>Really? WW2 ring a bell.
Not very relevant to koryu bujutsu, but they could have been lead by anyone, they would not have beat america
>Yes and isn't that how the Bujinkan is structured today?
No, its structure has much more in common with mainline aikido or the early kodokan.
>Musou Jikiden Eishin ryu
Some people dont even recogize it as a koryu because it was radically reformed in the meiji era, and again when the kendo federation got involved. That said, while it is a koryu by the academic definition, it is somewhat different than the schools I tend to talk about.
>Religion was the forerunner to science. Many Buddhist and esoteric rituals were steeped in scientific thinking. We just replaced Gods with physics, chemistry and biology.
That is such a gross distortion of the role they played. True, they were largely psychological tools, but they were also believed quite literally
>>1168686
>What does this mean? Like a philosophical code of ethics, or some sort of psychoanalytic theory on how the brain works?
I can give some examples, the first place were this is is the kata. While many koryu did and do have some freeplay, it is almost always preceded by kata in imporatance. The great fencing master Yamaoka Tesshu would make his students practice kata for three years before starting shiai keiko.
The kata by necessity embody the philosophy of the style, and they are often accompanied by oral or written teachings given only after years of practice.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjcicOB7vrLAhULOiYKHTVTBH8QFggrMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fiaido.ru%2Ftanka%2Findex-Yokogumo.html&usg=AFQjCNGa50Frbnkfd558wzGsD-6fbtdKGA
these would be an example
The entire set up of student imitating teacher, at least at the beginning, is designed to pass down this sorts of non-tangible elements.
At higher levels many schools drew on religious rituals from Buddhism and shinto. Some schools have critic phrases like zen koans given to advance students, another art has a series of meditation rituals adapted to their style. Another school as a number of esoteric shinto rituals, even supposedly a method to commune deceased members of the style. (Again these are often more like psychological tool than something you have to literally believe in)
Now I say all that, but the truth is any in depth from of training will effect your psychology at some level, but koryu is one of the few I know of that actively attempts to do this as an essential part of training
>>1168609
>Nigger, LARPing as a ninja three nights a week isn't going to stop someone from braining you with a god damn 2x4.
A style that focuses on multiple attackers isn't going to be more effective against multiple attackers than a style that focuses on one on one play fighting?
/Asp/ logic.
>>>1168182 #
>No, you don't.
>Because that's not an arm bar
You just don't have any imagination.
>>1168988
>That does not mean there should not be a cadre of younger students fit to succeed him.
Not an appropriate subject.
>Itto ryu? toda ha boku ryu? some of the most famous, and strongest surviving schools of japanese martial arts? As far as Japanese martial arts cricles are concerned they are far far more relevant than the bujinkan
Are they going to survive though? With such low member numbers? If they were that strong everyone would be joining them, don't you think?
>"体術" Almost always an alternate name for jujutsu.perhaps some specific koryu had an alternate definition, but its not in general use. perhaps the word heiho or hyoho would be more appropriate
Taijutsu is one step up from jujutsu. It's an umbrella term. Bujutsu is the next step up.
>Not very relevant to koryu bujutsu, but they could have been lead by anyone, they would not have beat america
A good leader looks after his people. The Japanese would have saved millions of lives by not implementing dumb policies like 'fight to the last women and child' and 'suicide before surrender'
I lived and worked in Japan for a year. Japanese still have no idea about leadership and it shows in the martial arts.
>No, its structure has much more in common with mainline aikido or the early kodokan.
I disagree.
>Some people dont even recogize it as a koryu because it was radically reformed in the meiji era, and again when the kendo federation got involved. That said, while it is a koryu by the academic definition, it is somewhat different than the schools I tend to talk about.
Sure it is.
>>1121869
I always thought ninjutsu would be really fun but it's never been available to me. My teacher would also have to be really humble because usually those slightly sketchy arts have gyms run by egomaniacs.
If I can't find you on Sherdog shut your mouth about how you're a better fighter than the guys in the UFC, seriously. My coach would never say stupid shit like that (like that one DZR guy I took a class from once) because he is a pro fighter and when you get your ass knocked out in the cage a couple of times you realize you're not the toughest dude in the whole world.
>>1171123
>Are they going to survive though? With such low member numbers? If they were that strong everyone would be joining them, don't you think?
For koryu they both have pretty high numbers, but a koryu is judged by quality not quantity.
>Taijutsu is one step up from jujutsu. It's an umbrella term. Bujutsu is the next step up.
says who? where is this in a book?
>A good leader looks after his people. The Japanese would have saved millions of lives by not implementing dumb policies like 'fight to the last women and child' and 'suicide before surrender'
>I lived and worked in Japan for a year. Japanese still have no idea about leadership and it shows in the martial arts.
The subject of leadership and martial arts is to complex for this format, but the leadership if WWII and modern Japan is somewhat divorced from classical Japanese ideas on the subject
>I disagree.
I am echoing what academics like Karl Friday have said on the subject
>Sure it is.
Not sure if this is sarcastic or not, but even in English the topic has been done to death. Its a widely held opinion.
>>1171123
>A style that focuses on multiple attackers in a choreographed or otherwise unrealistic scenario
FTFY, having actually fought multiple people, and trained against multiple people (3 at once) who attacked and resisted in a realistic way, I guarantee that you aren't training in a realistic way.
>>1171123
>You just don't have any imagination.
No, you just don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
It's called a knee bar, because you're attacking the knee.
An armbar isn't called an armbar because you are doing it with your arms you fucking dunce.
>>1171277
Whut...? When did I said that I was better fighter than UFC? I don't remember anything about posting that I'm badass fighter who can take on fighters from UFC.
