>animal agriculture is ruining the Earth.
and plant agriculture isn't?

lmao.

>>2118055
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_husbandry

>>2118055
'HOW TO GO OFF TOPIC' 101
Faggot!

>Movie turned me vegan

And why would anyone watch it on your recommendation now?

I've watched a lot of those peta videos and still collect fur/taxidermy and live on a meat diet. I doubt anything will change my mind. Probably because grew up on a farm so I'm not some over sensitive city kid who can't handle life. You can't whinge about anything ruining the environment unless you live off home grown food with only organic possessions.

lets keep it clean :)

plant agriculture maybe ruining the Earth as well, but this conversation will be more productive if we stick to animal agriculture, right?

>animal agriculture is ruining the Earth

Practically everything humans do on an industrial scale has a huge and negative impact on Earth, animal agriculture is just one of many small facets.

>>2118067
No one is forced to watched this documentary or turn into a vegan. I felt that it was a nice documentary and I shared it, that is all. :)

This thread is seriously NOT intended to changing your or anyone's mind Anon.

And it is not about city or farm kids as well...

Also, not all so called city kids are over sensitive.

>>2118071
But this documentary shows how HUGE a facet is animal agriculture. Watch it! Don't trust in my words!

>>2118071
> animal agriculture is just one of many small facets
Sorry to say, but you are being ignorant by saying this. At least according to the documentary, it is wrong.

>>2118088
Then your documentary is nothing but emotionally driven propaganda

I don't really get how someone could just go "meh who cares" when it's the cause of over 70% of the rain forest's destruction or the #1 cause of greenhouse gasses, or how cow shit ruins water supplies. it's like saying "hurr since crime will always happen we shouldn't even try!" like gee, pretty clear you're just looking for an excuse

>>2118067
>I doubt anything will change my mind. Probably because grew up on a farm so I'm not some over sensitive city kid who can't handle life.
I am too, it's the exact reason I'm vegan. not everyone has such a large amount of cognitive dissonance and apathy to the world around them, anon

>>2118092
it's been shown many time over. or is your confirmation bias a little too strong?

>>2118111

It's kinda hard when AGRIBUSINESS in general makes up 41% of greenhouse gases and all that water you've saved goes straight into corn or soy factory farms.

I'm all for sustainable agriculture but then you go into "how do I feed 7 billion people without turning some of them into dead bodies".

Personally, I think the problem is how we see feeding people as a BUSINESS, rather than a natural human right.

>>2118117
>the problem is how we see feeding people as a BUSINESS, rather than a natural human right.
we don't really.

a significant fraction of the world's food supply is paid for by the taxpayers of Russia and the US.

for the most part farming isn't profitable unless the government steps in with money to take up the slack. Even when it is profitable farmers will be wiped out as businesses every time the weather doesn't cooperate.

>>2118117
>how do you feed 7 billion people
I can tell you right now that meat is not that answer to that question. But then again it's not one countries problem to feed the world.

>>2118143
how is it you understand a single country won't feed the world but don't get that a single food product won't either?

>meat is not the answer.
the same could be said about wheat
or corn
or rice

there is no single answer. We're going to need all the food we can raise at some point.

>>2118143
>I can tell you right now that meat is not that answer to that question.

cattle lives primarely from forage, wild plants from areas unfit for agriculture.

it's literally turning nothing into food.

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Maggot farming.

/thread

>>2118092
>emotionally driven propaganda

I'd say it is
-statistically driven showcasing of scientific research work.

-it is a 'love for the earth' driven piece of work.

And btw, it is not my documentary. It is something I found in the internet.

I guess we can go on and on talking about what 'countries' can do in order to make a change. But it will not make a difference.

I think we should talk about what you and me can do as individuals and bring about an actual change.

>>2118479
...and these individual changes will collectively benefit everyone eventually.

>>2118162
Everyone focuses on beef.
Chickens,rabbits, guine pigs,

All can be raised low impact with very little effort.

Goats and sheep are a little harder as they've destroy ecosystems before.

And wild game is plenty sustainable if less abundant.

It's too complicated, I have no opinion.

Anyway it's always said that something is ruining something. Not really, it's changing it. But change is unpredictable so it's probably best to avoid causing it carelessly.

Ultimately, going vegan will have no impact on anything besides your own diet. A small primarily-Western movement means nothing in the face of 3rd world population explosions - as soon as these billions get a taste for decent-quality mass-farmed meat, then you can throw any animal liberation ideals out of the window. With the demographic changes happening in the West, you can also wave goodbye to any resistance.

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Thing is, in 200 years where will be too many hungry people to think about thinning biodiversity at all. In 500 years, this planet will be a living hell that will end in self-destruction.
"Fuck races, religions, whatever - Let's breed some sekrit virus that kills ALL the humans except for some who will produce tolerance on the spot. Repeat every 1000 years. Ack, is it that zombie Apocalypse they foretold?".
"We are killing this planet, this mass suicide environmentalist sect will try our best to help our beautiful home!"
"We'll just nuke anybody but us, no way it'll backfire"
Do you even imagine all this shit?

>>2118488
I'm not so pessimistic about the meat problem.

There are alternatives for meat, like
http://www.goldandgreenfoods.com/

Making it a megatrend, I don't know how?

I do share the worry of the general problem, 10+ billions of people all looking out for the western quality of life. But I don't think that is going to happen soon. Half the world is swimming in corruption to such degree that little is going to improve there.

>>2118488
I partly agree to what you're saying anon. I have lived in a third-world country for more than 15 years before moving to a highly developed Western country.

And yes, 'some' of us will definitely fall for 'decent-quality mass farmed meat' as you say. But there are many like me who are vegetarians and who want to remain vegetarians. So the situation is NOT that black and white.

>going vegan will have no impact on anything besides your own diet

Umm, if you look closely, it is not only one person going vegan here. It starts with a person, extends to 50, then 100 and then 200 and so on.
The demand for dairy products will decrease, eventually the production will decrease and bla bla bla....
You know what I'm saying? :)

>>2118483
>Not really, it's changing it

Yes. Now, 'changing' is either 'improving' or 'ruining'. It now becomes more of a philosophical question as to what do you personally consider as 'improving' or 'ruining'.

>change is unpredictable

It is not so black and white anon. Change can be 'predicted'. That is probably why it is called 'prediction'. There is definitely no certainty.

But prediction is possible through science.

>>2118504
Yes, prediction is possible. How much are we doing that? Not a whole lot, we rush in with our political and emotional agendas and learn in hindsight. It has worked alright. Keeps us motivated.

>>2118513
A whole lot of prediction based on observations was done in this documentary at least!

>>2118529
if anyone could predict the consequences of human behavior they'd make billions and rule the world.

nobody can. We're too close to the subject and can't predict how we'll correct our course in the future because it's going to involve things we haven't even imagined yet.

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>>2118535

>>2118482
>All can be raised low impact with very little effort.
and everyone seems to think c02 in the air is bad.

which is true if you live in some third world shithole that was dry to begin with.

but most of the west has actually gotten greener over the years due to it, since plants feed off it.

if the plants in cooler zones weren't doing so well due to it, we'd have more of a problem because of it.

do you care that Mohammed and Yamal aren't able to pick cotton anymore? because I care more about the wine quality that's improved in northern regions due to climate change.

>>2118562
It's nice until Mohammed and Yamal are on your borders as climate refugees. They're already conspiracy theorists as fuck because of the Cold War mentality of superpowers toying with countries left and right.

While CO2/temperature increase has also nice effects, it will also upset the balance of nature in ways we don't understand well
https://www.skepticalscience.com/co2-plant-food.htm

>>2118047
that documentary is one sided, extremely repetetive, and clearly shows exactly who paid for it.
its a long time ago that i watched it so, but lets start here:

I work on a dairy farm, in denmark,
i won't say europe in general does a lot to reduce emissions from animals, because when go just south of the border to germany, they are still allowed to spread slurry on top of the soil, which have an efficiency around 20-30% that means most of the nitrogen will evaporate, which is kinda stupid, because we want this nitrogen for our plants, but its just cheaper.

Now Denmark doesn't get a whole lot of recognition in the european parliament, so we try to flex our muscles by tightening regulations on our agricultural pollution far more than the EU wants, so this means, we get less nitrogen than our plants need, we have to have a cover on our slurry silos, we have to put the slurry directly into the soil, many chemicals are banned every year even though they still have european approval and much more

combine this with the economically challanged agricultural situation, and you have a plan for disaster, and even though the government won't budge, and farmers go bankrupt left and right, we still remain competetive on the european market, because we have adapted slowly to these regulations, what we call conventional crops are litteraly eligible to be called organic just south of the border, mean while using almost half of the fertilizer as they do.

back on track, we want as little of the gasses to escape from manure and slurry as possible, so that we can use it for our crops, and we do anything imagineable to keep it in, add acid to the slurry, putting hats on our silos, and so on, but thats here in denmark, i was in the UK not long ago and i saw a farmer who litteraly just dug a hole in the ground and used that as a slurry silo, now this disgusts me, that he disregards the planet in such a way.

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>>2120118
so, i won't say that the whole world needs the same rules as denmark, because this is too much, but at least enough regulations so that you aren't allowed to just dump your shit in a hole, then we should be on track to a better environment.

>>2120118
It is really a pity that good practices don't get the sales they need. It is one of the problems of globalization that operators in the market don't play by the same rules. I'm not against globalization, but something should be done to also check the other problems like tax havens.

Mass extinctions are part of nature. It's the truest test of fitness and will allow even greater bio diversity after the dust is settled.

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>>2118488
>some bacteria will survive hand soap... might as well not even bother wiping my ass. sigh. why am i getting sick all the time?
you realize india has the largest population of vegetarians anywhere, right?

>>2120422
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-nature
i'd also love to hear how you think biodiversity is supposed to work when most of the world's biomes will have been wiped out for to make space for farmland. really.

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>>2118488
also, most of those starving third world populations wouldn't be starving if that grain went to feed people instead of cattle. i don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.

>>2118489
Nah let's just let wars take care of it WW3 is bound to happen someday.

>>2120903
>giving a crutch to massively-overpopulated areas of the world that can't even work out how to feed themselves, by sending them all our cattle-grade grain (and leaving millions of now-purposeless cows to presumably die or roam wild)

wew lad

>>2120903
famine isn't caused by lack of supply you tit.

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>>2118067
>he thinks liking meat and fur makes him tough

>>2120916
it's ok, our cattle aren't actually fed grain for 90% of their short little lives.

we just fatten them up on grain. This is called finishing because it's the last thing we do to them to get a couple hundred extra pounds of beef to sell.

In reality most cattle are free-range for most of their lives. Which really isn't very long.

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Mangalitsa pigs have curly hair like sheep. GMO them to produce milk like that of a cow.

Meat
Leather
Wool
Milk

That could reduce the need for farming separate species that only produce one thing.

>>2121203
>That could reduce the need for farming separate species that only produce one thing.
good luck convincing people to drink pig milk and to eat only pork because other meats wouldn't be as efficient to produce anymore

>>2120898
India is also one of the most environmentally unfriendly nations on the planet.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-aad46fca-734a-45f9-8721-61404cc12a39

>>2119019
>as climate refugees.
those are tossed straight back over the border here or their boats are sunk before they even get to those.

you can't upset the balance of nature, it doesn't have a balance to begin with.

Mad cow disease struck the about a decade ago. As a result, people stopping buying meat. The economy in every European nation crashed immediately.

Meat isn't an industry, it's THE industry, there is absolutely no possible way for everyone to "go vegan" without displacing close to a billion people and permanently destroying most societies.

And that's purely logistical, the public outcry would be of catastrophic proportions and force every 1st world nation on earth to adopt a government similar to North Korea where 10% are ruled by an iron fist and the remaining 90% exist in pure anarchy.

This delusion has to end. Communism killed a billion people, I will not let Veganism do the same. Never stop eating meat.

pro-vegan campaigns annoy me more than pro-meat campaigns.

atleast wild flowers can grow in the fields used to feed and keep cattle since it's not human-grade quality and the farmers don't care much about it, there's also plenty of wildlife around them due to it.

that's a whole different story with human-grade agriculture, you've got multiple government agents after your ass if you don't keep that shit up to irrational standards.

>but some kid might have an allergy to Brassica napus and die!

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I've watched a lot of these kind of documentaries and videos regarding animal abuse, particularly directed towards livestock. Neither of them made me go vegan or vegetarian for that matter.
However what pushed me towards plant based diet is personally putting myself in their "shoes" obviously through a very abstract process and that reinforced my ideal pursuit of taking meat off my diet list. A question I also asked myself, how come I love cats, dogs, or just about any creature I was not conditioned to eat yet mindless towards cow or pig?
A brief moment had me reach to the conclusion I simply was not exposed to them as much as I am to other animals, and if I had been in similar manner I am to cats or horses, of course I would never have been so easily conditioned to eat them in the first place.
Surely cats eat meat, so do many other animals however they are often if not always restricted by biology to do so, whereas humans are not.
Overall, a personal appreciation I have for universalist religions, it seems appropiate to apply the very same universal values to those not born as the same species as myself.
I would love to see butchery halted permanently tommorow but unfortunately it is a very long process considering the scale of its operation.

Aside all that, to put a note to vegans, is you have to remember not everyone has identical mindset as you, so ignore the priests of their time preaching animal murder and focus on those who have their ears and mind open for your advice. More and more people are turning vegan every year, so with time... the tides are turned against animal murderers.
Hypothetically, should a population consist mostly of vegans, it'll be easy to root out animal murderers through government.
They can't be broken in arguments involving environmental pollution for instance, or health for that matter, however in arguments that use empathy as a basis, how they shrink back and act like victims of your so called harsh judgement.

>>2121203
Pigs are considered bad in a lot of religions, so good luck convincing everybody to switch to an all pig diet.

>>2121353
"If everyone stops eating animals, the world will literally end"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA how fucking delusional do you have to be to believe this shit?
Do you see the mental gymnastics that people perform to justify their shitty diet of dead animal flesh?
Keep telling yourself these lies, whatever helps you sleep at night. You can't consider yourself an animal lover if you pay some guy to torture and slaughter them because "I love muh bacon".

>>2122114
>to torture and slaughter them
none of the animals we raise commercially are capable of being tortured.

Do you see the mental gymnastics that people perform to justify their shitty diet of dead plants?

>>2122116
What about them makes them invulnerable to pain and suffering? Your taste buds?

>>2122118
Sentience. Emotion is not sentience. The pig doesn't know it's a pig. It just knows how to eat, reproduce, and shit. Even though dogs, cats, etc, develop and show emotion and attachment and pain and joy, there is no "I am a dog, so don't kill me." There is just "sniff, eat, woof, love, dead." No existential thoughts for any animals aside from humans, dolphins, and elephants. All of which are frowned upon to eat.

>>2118471
>-it is a 'love for the earth' driven piece of work.
>emotionally driven propaganda

These are one in the same.

>>2121353
>Communism killed a billion people, I will not let Veganism do the same. Never stop eating meat.
kek

>>2122118
you need consciousness to have pain and suffer.

we don't eat any animals with signs of consciousness.

I was into it until it turned into a vegan seminar.

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>>2118055
Actually the overproduction of Corn is slowly making soil quality in the US shit. They made a documentary on it.

Veganism isn't going to solve anything. Forests will still be cleared, to grow crops, to feed ever expanding humanity.

>>2122405
>i was into hearing about how the earth is being destroyed until i found out there was a solution that would slightly inconvenience my tastebuds

>>2123216
>I believe vegans are saving the earth
>I think we can support the world's population on vegetables alone
>I don't realize over half of our plant food is produced directly from fossil fuels

vegans are like most environmentalists, their heart is in the right place but they have no grasp of reality.

>>2123235
lmfao if you really cared about the negative affect plants are having on the earth you'd stop eating the animals that consume most of the fucking plants

>>2123254
I'm saying stopping eating one type of food has no real effect on the actual problem.

I don't personally care either way, it will sort itself out long after I'm dead. Just saying going vegan won't make a damn bit of difference in the end. Our populations are unsustainable with current technology. This bubble will burst whether you eat meat or not.

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>>2121127
>he thinks going vegan will make a difference

>>2123257
sappy, but it matters to the animals

if you wouldn't eat a dog don't eat a pig

>>2123216
Vegetable farming isn't without cost, plant farms cause a lot of environmental damage as well.
Don't get your organic hemp fiber panties in a twist because someone politely gave their opinion.

>>2123288
>it matters to the animals
perhaps.

it doesn't matter to them after they're dead though. Unlike you and me they don't really have to worry about dying and being eaten, it's not a concept they could grasp even if we tried to make them aware of it.

>>2123295
why do we torture them and keep them in such terrible conditions then?

why are factory farms okay?

>>2123298
because then when we slaughter them it's a mercy killing. We're doing them a favor killing them.

but seriously, nobody in the agriculture biz thinks animals are capable of suffering. They're a bunch of noisy carrots and potatoes

Sometimes we wish they could suffer because those animals are mostly dicks.

>>2123300
That's a terrible way to think and makes you look a nihilist. Death is compulsory for all, suffering is not.

You're also absolutely wrong if you think no-one in the agriculture field sees that their animals are individuals.

Sage because this thread seems to be abandoned.