>http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/seaworld-to-end-killer-whale-shows-in-wake-of-mounting-protests/ar-CC9ukv?li=AAa0dzB&ocid=TSHDHP
Where were you when the terrorists won?
Why is holding orcas in captivity worse than zoos and aquariums holding animals?
It seems like most people advocating this are mindlessly parroting some CNN movie, and that worries me, but I don't know if they're mindlessly advocating something good or bad.
>>1995256
These animals are perceived as far more intelligent and social than any others like le magic dolphinz. However the whale the film is about, Tilikum, is wild caught, has been abused by other whales and is a danger to trainers, they also keep him in a tiny holding tank and jerk him off daily and make millions from his sperm, so his offspring can also live in a tiny tank somewhere else. Considering their natural range of thousands of miles it's really rather awful.
>>1995247
they're losing money, and they think it's because of Blackfish.
In reality their core demographic doesn't have as much money as they used to, and what they offer isn't the best zoo around or the best theme park. It's a good time to be Disneyland or the San Diego Zoo. SeaWorld not so much.
>>1995271
>it's really rather awful.
sure, but it's the only thing that will keep the species from going extinct if wild populations continue to decline.
it's pretty funny the animal rights groups working directly against environmentalists. But what can we say, you're all retards.
>>1995256
>Why is holding orcas in captivity worse than zoos and aquariums holding animals?
orcas are really fucking big and relatively smart.
>>1995286
>what are elephants, Alex?
>>1995289
Same thing, but much worse just because orcas are bigger and travel absolute fuckloads of distance in a day,
>>1995292
they travel up to 100 miles in a day which puts them on a par with most North American megafauna.
I don't see films being made about captive wolves or mountain lions based just on how far they can wander.
>>1995256
On one level, they're definitely not. Some zoo's, many even, are terrible.
However.
Aquariums are usually stocked with fish and turtles, which are given big enough tanks they can freely move around a decent distance at all times. Plus, not the most intelligent beings.
Zoo's are full of tons of animals that don't give a shit. Reptiles/amphibians/birds/small mammals. the only real issues with zoo's are the treatment of African species (but many are being moved to very large "fake African" safari ranges and the Apes, which I have some moral problems with, but they have giant enclosures and family.
Those Orcas are stuffed in a tiny box at night, out in a ridiculously small enclosure during the day and are smart. Plus they get abused and forced to do stupid shows. On top of that the whole "stolen from the ocean" story.
>>1995304
>abused and forced to do stupid shows
Abused?
And the 'stupid shows' are their only real form of mental stimulation in captivity. Pretty sure intelligent animals like orcas would rather work for their food by doing tricks than to have fish being thrown at them without doing anything.
I don't like cetaceans in captivity, but if they aren't going to be released, give them some mental stimulation through training.
>>1995307
Have you seen blackfish?
They should be released, that's the entire damn point.
>>1995296
>100 miles in a day which puts them on a par with most North American megafauna.
>I don't see films being made about captive wolves or mountain lions
wolves and mountain lions never travel one hundred miles in a day. They'd die.
>>1995313
>wolves and mountain lions never travel one hundred miles in a day.
you have no idea.
>>1995308
releasing them into the wild as of now is basically a death sentence and a ticket to extinction.
people generally dont care for things they cant see/ interact with
>>1995330
Do you have a source for that number?
Besides if wolves had a large prey population and other mates they'd never travel more than a mile a day.
Orca's are massive, they need space to move around. Something no aquarium could ever provide.
Plus you're separating them from their pod. You can't have 6-7 orcas in a pool. You can quite easily have a pack of wolves.
>>1995308
No, if anything we should be expanding our captive breeding program not restricting it. We should be furthering our research into cetacean care so that when orcas become critically endangered, which they and numerous other cetaceans will, we can actually breed and take care of them properly and not do what horrible things we did back in the 80's again.
In a perfect world this sort of conservation wouldn't be necessary but alas at the current rate things are going, we're not going to have orcas later on. It is a necessary evil. I don't want my grandchildren to look back at Orcas the way I look back at the other species we didn't manage to save. So we should be expanding what we know now while we still have time.
No movie can erase the fact that we need conservation. Sadly it is the steps we must take if we want to preserve Orcas and many other species.
>>1995277
Don't talk to me like one of them you piece of shit, I couldn't care less about these fucking sadistic predators. Fucking niggers of the sea.
>>1995351
Or we could...you know...save the fucking planet.
>>1995355
Sounds like a lot of fucking effort, just so some whales can not do tricks for us.
>>1995355
Anon, I REALLY REALLY wish we're gonna do that, but let's be realistic here. Pretty much every animal that can't be breed in captivity will become extinct more or less. That is the sad reality. Having hopes that we'll pull our heads out of our asses long enough to save the world is one thing, but prepare for the worst.
As >>1995358 said, that's pretty much the common view on this issue. But we don't have to let everything else die waiting for that miracle to happen you know?
>>1995271
I wish I had people to jerk me off daily.
>>1995351
Orcas are doing fine in the wild.
That said, theres already a much better way to keep captive ceteceans, and that is fencing off an entire bay.
>>1995459
They will not be soon enough, hence why we continue research on them now and not when they're nearly gone for good.
>>1995355
>save the fucking planet
futility. Why don't humans understand nothing we do matters on this planet. One day almost all life on earth is going to be wiped out in a mass extinction event, it could happen within your lifetime.
And you know what? we more than likely aren't going to be responsible for it, its going to a natural disaster we could have never prevented no matter what we do.
so instead of chasing the ridiculous pipe dream of making the earth into the comfortable temperate paradise it never was. Lets focus our efforts on the things we can control like breeding animals.
The show animals are treated like dog shit, as well as being exceptionally intelligent. They are also threatened or even endangered.
>>1995247
Fucking excellent news.
>>1995308
>Gets information from blackfish
topkek
>>1995488
Most people who want to help the planet aren't edgy nihilist teenagers on 4chan. There's a lot to learn from nature that you'd at least have to pass a freshman bio class to learn.
Also there's a mass extinction going on right now that humans are directly responsible for so please, stop posting these cringe inducing and simplistic theses on /an/ without knowing what you're taking about.
>>1995247
They still didn't say what they will do with them. They're born in captivity and don't know how to survive in the wild but after a while they become insane if kept in captivity.
>>1995341
>never travel more than a mile
not sure if retarted or trolling
>Wolves may travel 10 to 30 miles each day in search of food.
http://www.bigrunwolfranch.org/about_wolves.html
>>1995351
you can't save everything. Humans have such this means for short sighted solutions. The best solution is just to fuck off and let things be.. I don't think orcas should be doing tricks for fish in a tiny tank. I don't think they like it either.
>>1995289
Elephants arent open ocean animals
You cant adequately recreate open ocean enviornments in an enclosed area,
No matter how big you make it. Thats why the captive whalesharks keep dying.
Jesus christ am I really on /an/?
This is great news and people are just pissed because OMG BLACKFISH IS MISINFORMATION
What the fuck is wrong with you? Are you trolling? Go outside and touch grass immediately
>>1995626
They got bitten by that bugguy retard and they refuse to believe that animals can feel
>>1995629
Orcas pass the mirror test.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0376635701001346
>>1995597
I bet you're one of those retards that think humans are causing extinctions because records started being kept
what do you know, records show us that in the time we have been keeping records there are more records if things going extinct than there were before we started keeping records of it.
imagine that
>>1995626
>This is great news
why? they're just stopping the shows because people weren't going to them, they're not getting rid of their animals.
>>1995626
I don't see it as great news at all. The shows were rather important as an enrichment factor for the animals, but they're planning on finding a different way to do shows at least so that the animals aren't as bored.
I still really wish Blackfish never happened, the anti-captivity retards were previously a minority now all you hear is uneducated people wailing about shit they don't know anything really about. I mean, it pressured Seaworld to get bigger tanks even faster, that's a good thing, but forcing them to do all this other shit to appease a bunch of idiots isn't great.
Shit sucks.
>>1995256
Well SeaWorld itself is just kind of a really evil company, and has been for a long time. For instance, it is confirmed that at least two of SeaWorld's false killer whales were captured in the now infamous Taiji killing cove, meaning who knows how many dolphins they've gotten from there. Also, Marineland of California was preparing to sell it's orcas to SeaWorld in the 80's, SeaWorld agreed to this proposal and said that Marineland would remain open to the public. In the dead of night however, SeaWorld took every single animal and filled the tanks with concrete so they could never be reused. Marineland closed permanently immediately afterwards. SeaWorld also aggressively advocated against the release of Keiko, the killer whale star or Free Willy because the idea of a whale being happy and free in the wild is very bad for SeaWorld's image. SeaWorld has gotten 3 people killed, SeaWorld's orcas have gotten 4 people killed. This is a company that has killed people and gotten away with it, even Comcast can't say they've done that. Keeping these intelligent, not to mention dangerous animals in captivity is honestly the least of SeaWorld's worries.
>>1995929
But you faggots do realize that Sea world's Rescue and Rehabilitation Program rescues and rehabilitates so many wild animal that a few animals suffering in captivity shouldn't matter.
>>1995626
>Go outside and touch grass immediately.
Nah, I know the smell of outdoor air well enough.
>>1995936
Of course and that's a great thing, but on all levels theme park it's fucking evil. The only thing stopping SeaWorld from dropping the theme park shit and being a donation funded wildlife rescue and rehabilitation center like they primarily were before is the millions of dollars in park revenue.
>>1995936
>it's okay the abuse the fuck out of animals because we're helping others
Nope. Especially since killer whales are one of the few animals even bugguy will admit might be conscience.
>>1995803
The shows were not designed as an enrichment factor, fuck off. They were there to make money.
There are plenty of other ways to keep the orcas entertained.
>>1995624
The only species ill accept are seals.
Seals are essentially giant dogs and just swim/sleep all day anyway. They don't form intimate pods and can become domesticated very easily.
Dolphins and Orca's are a no no.
>>1995956
You'd rather thousands of animals in the wild suffer than a hundred or so is captivity? Yes. I definitely see your point.
>>1995936
I like this gif. Got more dolphin trick gifs?
>>1995958
>seals
>domesticated easily
Confirmed for having never worked with pinnipeds before. Top fucking kek
>>1995957
Indeed, during his tenure at Oregon Coast Aquarium Keiko was kept entertained by hunting live fish, interacting with his human caretakers in non performance ways and watching fucking movies. He liked Monty Python and the Holy Grail so much he sat and watched the whole thing. Ironically enough he didn't care for Free Willy.
Question for this thread, particularly people who are anti-cetacean captivity. According to their website (and pics online) the Navy's dolphins work "untethered in the open ocean" every day. They live in captivity during the other times. If captivity is so bad and they're so smart, why don't they run away?
Pic related, dolphin playing with its trainer out in the ocean
>>1995964
Sadly that was my only one.
I have other animal trick gifs though.
>>1995957
The shows are designed to give the animals something to do though. Something fun that the entire pod can do together, not just to make money, considering out in the wild the entire pod would get together to go hunting. The money is a great byproduct though, if you're going to teach them tricks to keep them entertained might as well show people and raise awareness about the animal at the same time.
>>1995958
Okay you're just an idiot who knows nothing about seals too. Before you continue spouting off that Seaworld is so evil, why don't you go learn some about Seaworld's other mammals instead of just crying about whales?
>>1995974
Cute. Thanks anon
>>1995973
Some animals trained by the navy have escaped. Two orcas were used experimentally by the navy, one died under the navy's care while the other managed to escape into the open ocean, only possible because the whale's tracking device failed. So they might try, but they are owned by the navy and they have tracking devices.
>>1995982
Their website says only "a few" ever left and from another website it says they have 80 dolphins right now. The program has been going since the '60s. What about the vast vast majority of other dolphins that never left?
>tracking devices
I mean what can those actually do? They track them, follow them with the boat, then what? If a sea mammal wants to run away in the ocean I'm pretty sure it would be damn easy for them to do so even if they are being "tracked." I really doubt the Navy is somehow capturing runaway dolphins out in the middle of the ocean. Pic related I'm guessing (?) is a tracking device...what do you honestly think that little thing is going to do if the fucker decides it wants to be free willy?
I'm not anti-captivity or anti-hunting at all. I wouldn't even be anti-orca/dolphin if they could do it PROPERLY. I even flat out fucking despise dolphins. It just doesn't seem to have improved as much as it could have been in the past what, 50-60 years? The cons outweighs the pros and while I do think putting them on for entertainment helps bring in money for them AND could provide enrichment - it hasn't been worth it.
I haven't even seen Blackfish either.
>>1995989
Yeah I don't know enough about navy dolphins to answer this question well, I mean they must keep very good care of these animals, and trained military animals are likely very expensive so you do not want to be the chucklehead that loses a fucking navy dolphin. Maybe the dolphins find working in exchange for fish stimulating, it's not quite the same as doing tricks in a pool and its out in the open ocean, so it's not exactly a bum deal. Someone's bound to show up who knows more than I do.
>>1996000
Fair enough, I don't either. Hopefully someone will show up ITT who does.
Although I did just have a thought that maybe because they were born in captivity they consider the other Navy dolphins to be their "pod" and wouldn't know how to interact with wild dolphins. So at the end of the day they want to go home to their pod rather than be on their own in the ocean. Just speculation though.
>>1996007
This could be. I know dolphins tend to prefer a single territory similar to resident orcas, many dolphins that go to tourist beaches to be pet and interacted with are regulars, so it's not out of the question to think that trained dolphins feel the same way about their own homes. Keiko was very comfortable going back to his sea pen after ocean walks.
>>1995974
Gake and fay
>>1995936
>its okay to beat slaves as long as some people treat some fine
>>1995247
I always subconsciously think those white patches on an orca's head are their eyes, and then every time chuckle as I realize how tiny their real eyes are
>>1995247
SeaWorld ain't even ending the shows, they're just changing the name and changing the subject matter to supposedly revolve around educating the guests on natural killer whale behavior, which sounds like a load of bologna to me.
>>1995330
no really, they don't
>>1995803
This.
>>1995308
MOST of the orcas in captivity are born and raised in captivity, and "releasing" them into the wild is the same as throwing a pet lap dog into the middle of Alaska to fend for itself.
>>1996657
What? How can you say that's the same at all? We haven't domesticated whales to any extent.
>>1996661
Because, you dumb fucking retards, animals who have never been in the wild, at all, in their entire life, would have no fucking idea how to survive, let alone thrive, in the wild.
So in this instance, a captive raised orca and a lap dog would have the exact same chance at survival. If they are incredibly lucky a predator will pick them off quick so they don't suffer in misery as they starve to death.
>>1996662
>orca
>predator pick them off
A better example would be a captive bred polar bear being dumped off in alaska. Theres a difference between a lapdog and a gigantic apex predator.
But yeah releasing the orcas would be bad, best option would be a fenced off bay or sea pen or etc.
>people ITT don't realize orcas are flagship animals, raking in tens of millions of dollars for research and conservation for not just orcas, but every endangered or threatened reef fish on the verge of extinction from oil spills or whatever that if not for SeaWorld would die out like a fart in the wind without anyone knowing
fucking do your research, retards
>>1998058
>it's okay to torture a few animals for the sake of the rest
Orcas are conscience as well, so you can't even get away with the nociception bullshit.
>>1998059
>torture
That's where the controversy lies. I think orcas can be kept healthy and happy enough to justify using them so save other endangered animals.
Also, we have no idea what the mental state of an orca is like. I'm sure most are fine albeit a few might be damaged.
I think if kept in family groups and with proper exercise and stimulation orcas can be kept just fine.
>>1998062
>I think
>I'm sure
Have you even seen the movie? The evidence proves otherwise.
>>1998067
Blackfish?
>>1998067
how can you even trust people that don't know whales aren't fish?
>>1998068
So what did they say that wasn't true?
>>1998080
>ALL WHALES ARE EMOTIONALLY DAMAGED HUSKS
*citation needed
>>1998083
That's not really what they said though.
They said whales kept in tiny pools with no social interaction and very little stimulation run a high risk of becoming emotionally damaged. Which they then show things that point towards (whales harming each other and themselves, not moving, other odd behavior). The whales killing people seems like fairly normal behavior to me, but that's why it's fucking retarded of Sea World to put people in the tank with them.
>>1995997
>I'm not anti-captivity or anti-hunting at all. I wouldn't even be anti-orca/dolphin if they could do it PROPERLY. I even flat out fucking despise dolphins. It just doesn't seem to have improved as much as it could have been in the past what, 50-60 years? The cons outweighs the pros and while I do think putting them on for entertainment helps bring in money for them AND could provide enrichment - it hasn't been worth it.
Fucking this. It's like communism. Yeah if everything worked fine and the people in charge were good and did everything as best they could, it'd be great.
But that isn't the case, and it never has been.
Something the size of an orca in a tank as big as they're in, is like being trapped in an suv for you're whole life, and fed snacks in exchange for doing stand up comedy during the day, then you sleep in a Mazda Miata at night. And that's your life.
Could it be worse? Absolutely.
Are all the animals at seaworld treated like that? No.
Does seaworld do some good by exposing these creatures to the public and making them more than just pictures in a book or on tv? Yes, very much so.
Does that make the bad stuff ok? Fuck no, like someone else said, just because you, a plantation owner on the 1850's, treat most people good doesn't mean beating your slaves for sneezing in front of you is ok. And that's in context of living in 1850 btw. If they put forth effort into making fuckhuge enclosures for them, fed them their natural prey, didn't permanently separate family pods, etc, then no one here would take issue with it.
But they aren't, so we do.
>pic related:seaworld tries to improve public image before the op's recent event
>>1998087
Why are they kept in tiny pools anyways? Everyone should know that this is not a good move and basically the same as putting chicken in cages, just 100 times worse because of size and intelligence.
>>1995247
>blackfish has source-able people giving their perspective on shit, biased or otherwise, because even a 50/50 chance for each purported tidbit of information movie is wrong is still a pretty fucked up situation that requires action
>seaworld, losing hundreds of millions says its propaganda, they dindu nuffin, etc
>most of their 69 reasons to doubt the film:
>they haven't worked here in a really long time/didn't work with orca's much or directly/only for a few months
>which is like saying you can't comment of something illegal you see at work if you don't work in that department, or haven't worked there long
>they voluntarily stopped doing something bad after almost getting court orders to cease, so they stopped after almost getting exposed for it
>yeah really respectable, Jesus who wrote this list?
>though my favourite is a specific one: the trainer who died didn't get her arm eaten, they recovered the body AND the arm
>because that's what matters when your whale mauls someone to death
>disputes that killer whales HAVE harmed humans in the wild
>they have 5 examples, 4 were either attempts that failed or only debatably an attempt
>one guy got bit, needed a shit ton of stitches, but survived. So...one guy got attacked, survived. That's pretty fucking good all things considered.
>then they deflect the shit from the 70's with "that'd never happen now, so we shouldn't get in trouble for it"
They're like a real life strawman corporation in a newspaper comic, how is anyone on /an/ on their side?
That list is 4 compelling steps forward, 6 dejected and morally questionable steps back.
>>1995247
Awesome. They also said they aren't going to aquire new specimen. So nore more "Shamus" for you. This is just a necessary corpcorate policy hange, minding SeaWorld captured and imprisioned them since the early sixties.
Also they are under heavy pressure of the public and animal right activists. In California a new bill "The Orca Welfare and Safety Act" whose purpose is to prohibit the captive display of orcas in California and retire those currently held in captivity to a sea pen on the coast, is under discussion.
And think about SeaWorld keeping them alone for centuries, in tiny swimming pools (not even half of the size it's now) in which they couldn't even really swim or let alone dive.
Orcas are also known as very social creatures and communicate in infrasound and those pools reverberates everything (including visitors, music and trainers) very loudly.
They seem to go mad after some time in captivity, one subject apparently commited suicide in SeaWorld by smashing the tip of his nose against the wall of his pool till he got a brain bleeding.
Two trainers apparently got killed, one during a show, in which the orca grabbed her and drowned her at the bottom of the pool, infront of visitors.
>>1995256
I would agree with you that zoo animals are just as wrong keeping, like whales, dolphins an so on.
but the difference is that dolphin and whales require a hell lot of space, compared to a lion, lions often stay in the same area only male lions move around when they aren't needed in the flock but,they are kept in zoo's so they won't need to (the pack will never need a male lion to fuck off, because the zoo makes sure there's only one dominant lion male, often they will only keep two males) But dolphins and whales are always on the move, they never stay in the same area long, so to keep them in captivity would if they were kept right, require a very big country sized area of water to actually keep them happy
more fun at seaworld /an/
http://cbsnews.com.co/christian-anti-masturbations-mascot-arrested/
>>1999170
>Fappy the Anti-Masturbation Dolphin
>swimming in the dolphin tank with nothing but a dolphin mascot head
>pounding their devil stick
>Fappy has collected thousands of signatures from children promising to never masturbate
>they have a nickname for him; they called him the tickle monster
>what is their motive? are they masturbators? are they agents of Big Masturbation?
>began attempting to hump those innocent porpoises
Is this secretly satire? This fucking article is a wild ride from start to finish.
>>1995355
Don't be naive. Take a hard look at this world and then come back here and suggest that again.
Why don't YOU save the world?
>>1995626
dirty hippie
Great, now the orcas that were 'forced' to do shows will have nothing to do. Congratulations animal rights activists.
>>1999269
>implying the shows offered any sort of mental stimulation
Ok imagine yourself in this situation. About 10 times a day, you have to do a lot of running and jumping for a few minutes at a time before the next set of dudes comes out to do the same thing. You don't have much space to do this, it's about equivalent to the size of an average living room, by no means a gym, you can't even get /fit/ doing it. The real kicker is if you refuse to do the running and jumping, go fuck yourself, you're not fucking eating tonight. You don't have the option of getting your own food, you're on permanent house arrest. If you've ever had cabin fever you know how easy it is to get bored really fucking fast. You try to find something to do, but even that gets boring, sometimes even frustrating. All work and no play makes Jack a dull fucking boy and for the orcas it really is just work.
