Who was in the wrong here?
>>144256587
Homura
>>144256587
Homura is always wrong.
Homura is always a tsundere bitch around Mami
Is Homura EVER right?
>>144256587
Flat is justice.
>>144256587
Homura for not thinking things through enough, and realising that Bebe probably isn't the witch that set up the labyrinth. The only time Homura did something wrong.
>>144256587
Both.
>>144256587
Urobuchi for making the sequel
Homura is a fucking retard. She has the knowledge of countless timeloops knowing how the other characters should react to any circumstance.
The only thing she ever did right was incidentally multiplying Madoka's wishing power with her wish.
This is now officially a HomuMado thread, post best couple share your love
>>144257924
One of the best love stories ever told.
>>144257870
That said, Mami is probably dumber than any character not named Homura.
Madoka is the only non-retarded meguca. Shame she's also the blandest.
>>144257870
Why does that mean she's a retard? She couldn't save Madoka even after that many times because the system was set against her favor.
>>144258182
She never got to a point where she could actually realize that fact since she kept making so many incompetent fuck-ups that it was still feasible to blame herself instead of fate making it impossible until Madoka had enough wishing power.
>>144258407
If she realized that fact, it would mean she'd lose hope and turn into a witch. That's why she had no other choice but to blindly keep rewinding.
>>144258473
Yeah, but my whole point is that her own stupidity saved her.
>>144256721
>>144256641
HOMURA DID NOTHING WRONG.
In terms of not being a dumbass:
Madoka > Kyoko > Sayaka > Mami > Homura
>>144259146
Behead those who insult Homura.
>>144259146
Nah, I think thar Sayaka and even Mami are more of a dumbass than Homura
>>144259146
You mean the other way around, right?
Dumbasses from worst to best
Sayaka>Madoka>Kyouko>Mami>Homura.
Sayaka was a literal moralfag.
Madoka was naive.
Kyouko had the right idea, but she still fucked up where it counted.
Mami was the most experienced of them all, but she was too self-assured to listen to Homu
Homura did nothing wrong.
>>144259323
Madoka was able to outsmart Kyubey twice, tho
>>144259480
So did Homura.
>>144256587
Kyubey.
>>144259146
There is no way Sallaka is not the bakaest among them.
>>144256587
Kyubey.
>>144259480
>Μadoka
>outsmart a paper bag
Because her naive no-boundaries wish happened to be powerful enough to bend spacetime over and fuck it doesn't mean there was any thought behind it at all. All she asked for was "no more witches".
>>144256587
NRA
>>144259554
>>144259736
But anon, Kyubey's keikaku would allow them to collect more energy to fight off entropy. Think of the future generations on Earth and elsewhere versus some teenage girls wanting to go to valhalla after their precocious death.
You already know who was in the right the entire time. Search your heart you know it's the truth.
>>144259323
>>144259267
They were ALL naive, but Madoka was the only one smart enough to be cynical with the whole "Careful what you wish for" thing, and ultimately made the wish that fixed everyone's shit.
Sayaka showed she wasn't quite so stupid in the Rebellion movie, so I give her credit for that. If we're only talking about the original series though, she's probably the 2nd dumbest.
Kyouko isn't really smart nor stupid.
Mami is a dumb.
Homura had the greatest advantage of obtaining of knowledge of any of them with her wish, and she still routinely fucks up making her the stupidest.
>>144256587
Nagisa. She should have revealed her true form and given some more honest info to Homura.
But let's step back and look at the bigger picture.
Kyubey is the one responsible for trapping Homura.
Madoka ultimately abandoned Homura as a mentally unstable walking temporal anomaly. It was an accident, and Madoka intended to save Homura, but instead caused her suffering.
Sayaka, similar to Nagisa, withheld information and presented herself in a threatening manner instead of cooperating.
Kyoko actually did nothing wrong in this case; she had no involvement.
Mami can legitimately claim self defense in this case; Homura instigated with gunfire.
Homura did have a reasonable line of thinking-- barriers are created by witches, so she went after the witch in sight-- but she didn't consider the possibility that there could be other witches. However, in her mind, it would seem very suspicious that a witch would be cooperating with magical girls.
Ultimately, there are multiple levels of fault in this scenario.
Homura. Kyubey and his species was using reasoning to protect everyone.
>>144259890
>and she still routinely fucks up
That does not make her stupid, that means she is incompetent, which she really is.
>go through close to 100 timeloops
>on what turns out would be the the last one manage to always be late wherever she is needed, and nothing that she tries to warn them against goes her way
>only manage to get the others suspicious of her because reasons
>>144260129
Are cattle in the wrong for escaping the farm, leaving the farmer to starve?
>>144257870
>She has the knowledge of countless timeloops knowing how the other characters should react to any circumstance
Problem is, knowing how they react doesn't mean she can change how they react. Mami will never trust her over Kyubey; Sayaka will always make a contract and turn into a witch; Madoka will always end up becoming a magical girl by Walpurgisnacht.
>>144259890
>Sayaka showed she wasn't quite so stupid in the Rebellion movie
How about freaking out Homura by appearing as a witch and talking in riddles? Sure, she didn't have to divulge the whole truth, but she could have at least said that Nagisa was not a threat and that they both were sent by the Law of Cycles to investigate the witch, or at least warned about Kyubey.
>>144259770
Bro are you serious? There was clearly thought behind that, that shit wasn't a coincidence. Asking to do it with her own hands ensured that she would be immunized against witching out herself.
And in Rebellion she came up with a plan that would keep working even when she lost her memories. Madoka: 2, QBs: 0
>>144260159
Incompetence and stupidity are pretty much the same thing anon.
When you say people were suspicious of her because "Reasons" I hope you're not implying that it was bad writing. They had every reason to be suspicious of her. Watching from the audience's point of view the first time, she definitely comes off as a very suspicious character.
>>144260238
Nope, because at the end of the day it is about survival. Homura wanted humanity to survive, and kyubey used humanity as a sacrifice, while using naivety to do it. But, in the end she did it for madoka, as we saw when she became madoka became god, the world was saved anyhow since she reconstructed everything. So, was it not just selfishness to do it anyway?
>>144260380
opps accidentally added she became in there. Sorry.
>>144259861
There wouldn't be any future generations of earth if the planet got blown up by Super-Gretchen like QB wanted
Fuck QB
>>144260380
Selfishness isn't inherently bad
>>144260286
>Mami will never trust her over Kyubey
I find it incredibly difficult to believe that there's literally nothing she could ever do to convince Mami that Kyubey is not her friend.
>Sayaka will always make a contract and turn into a witch
Again, she surely had options. Sayaka always turns in to a which because Homura is more focused on Madoka than Sayaka.
Fact is, she just wasn't smart enough to find a way to push fate to have to resort to complete bullshit to insure that those things still happened.
>>144260306
I'm not your bro, buddy.
And nothing in the series ever indicated Madoka was anything but a scared girl with an eleventh-hour superpower.
![[Meguca]_Puella_Magi_Madoka_Magica_-_12_[BD][h264-1080p_FLAC][AF72CAC4].mkv_snapshot_03.20_[2014.05.10_03.59.47].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/9ZopiOI.jpg "[Meguca]_Puella_Magi_Madoka_Magica_-_12_[BD][h264-1080p_FLAC][AF72CAC4].mkv_snapshot_03.20_[2014.05.10_03.59.47].jpg")
>>144260697
You can't honestly think the ending was nothing but a pointless coincidence. This whole scene was about how he knew what the consequences would be, and accepted them. Pal.
>>144257705
>Bebe
The entire movie makes more sense if you get rid of Bebe and have Homura attacking QB instead.
>>144261005
No it doesn't.
>>144260667
Besides showing her the truth-- which means letting Sayaka die-- which also means Mami will lose her shit and try to pull murder suicide. Would you, under any circumstance, trust a complete stranger who shows up out of nowhere telling you your best friend is using you?
No, Sayaka always turns into a witch because of her stubborn nature and absolutist view on morality. Sayaka is literally to thick-skulled to see the truth of the situation and be saved.
>>144260697
You mean, besides the fact that her uncanny magical potential was stated multiple times starting at like episode 2?
>>144259890
>made the wish that fixed everyone's shit.
HAHAHA, her wish fixed NOTHING in the end. Homura had to fix Madoka's own wish to take Incubators out of the picture.
>>144260286
>Problem is, knowing how they react doesn't mean she can change how they react
You do realize that after HUNDREDS of timeloops, Homura became incredibly efficient at manipulating everyone into a complex sequence of events that stopped the suicidally altruistic Madoka from becoming a magical girl, right?
![[Meguca]_Puella_Magi_Madoka_Magica_-_10_[BD][h264-1080p_FLAC][AD0F4C42].mkv_snapshot_19.56_[2016.06.24_21.19.48].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/ykS8f8J.jpg "[Meguca]_Puella_Magi_Madoka_Magica_-_10_[BD][h264-1080p_FLAC][AD0F4C42].mkv_snapshot_19.56_[2016.06.24_21.19.48].jpg")
>>144261168
>Homura became incredibly efficient at manipulating everyone into a complex sequence of events that stopped the suicidally altruistic Madoka from becoming a magical girl, right?
Uh clearly not since she continually failed to do that
>>144261027
>No it doesn't.
How does it not? Homura should have been more suspicious of QB than anyone, as he is the one thing she trusts the least. Why would she even suspect a witch? Witches don't do shit like that.
>>144256587
Mami but Homura is also always wrong by default
>>144261278
>Why would she even suspect a witch?
Because she knows she's in a witch's barrier. She was even correct about the cause, she just suspected the wrong witch.
>>144261269
>she continually failed to do that
[citation needed]
I think it's pretty apparent from the look we saw that she's gotten good at stopping Madoka from becoming a magical girl. Her only, final obstacle was beating walpurgis.
>>144261168
>You do realize that after HUNDREDS of timeloops, Homura became incredibly efficient at manipulating everyone into a complex sequence of events that stopped the suicidally altruistic Madoka from becoming a magical girl, right?
It's less than one hundred, and unless you mean to refer to the end of Rebellion where she's a reality-warping demon, Madoka made a wish in every timeline.
>>144261364
She didn't stop Madoka from becoming a magical girl in a single timeline that we saw. What the hell are you talking about?
>>144261337
>Because she knows she's in a witch's barrier.
But the witch's behavior was completely un-witch like. It is simply more natural for her to blame QB and her chasing Bebe scene unnecessarily makes Homura out to be a villain. It's better if you remove Bebe and have her chasing QB.
>>144259146
Madoka > Mami > Kyoko > Sayaka > Homura
Fixed that for you.
>>144261364
And every time she failed to stop Walprugis, Madoka became a magical girl to stop it herself so she couldn't have been very good if she let Madoka become a magical girl nearly 100 times.
>>144261377
>It's less than one hundred
Bullshit. You do not learn to set up a complex chain of explosions in "less than a hundred" loops. So [citation needed] or you're full of shit.
>Madoka made a wish in every timeline.
This increasingly becomes more and more towards the end of the loop. As you see the loops go on, this is evident. In the end, Homura becomes 100% capable of stopping Madoka from making her wish up till the night of the final battle.All she need do is beat Walpurgis, but she's simply not powerful enough.
>>144259480
>Madoka outsmarted Kyubey twice
>Literally died 100 times for this to happen
>Only able to because of Homo
Honestly, the appeal of the series is that ALL the megucas are just stupid naive little girls at heart who are placed in an incredible convoluted scenario way above what anybody their age should ever be able to deal with, and thus as hard as they try to pretend like they're adults, their little girl flaws still leak out in some way or another.
>>144261522
>she couldn't have been very good if she let Madoka become a magical girl nearly 100 times.
How fucking obtuse. My original comment was at how good Homura has become at manipulating others and your latest "revelation" does nothing to disprove that, and only regurgitates what I've already stated. Her final obstacle was one of combat, not social.
>>144261582
>You do not learn to set up a complex chain of explosions in "less than a hundred" loops.
What? What are you basing this on? This seems like an arbitrary number.
>>144261168
>Homura
>Social engineering
Anon, I love Homu, but her being a socially awkward spaz is a feature, not a defect.
>>144261582
>[citation needed]
Not them, but you're a retard.
https://wiki.puella-magi.net/Nitro%2B_Q%26A_Panels_at_Animagic_2013
>Q: How many timelines did Homura go through?
>A: Approaching 100.
>>144261442
There's no direct connection between being in a witch barrier and QB, so it's more logical to approach the witch angle first.
>>144261681
>What are you basing this on?
Having experienced actual combat that never goes the way you expect no matter how much experience you have. Only with the flawless execution of thousands of attempts could she possibly manipulate Walpurgis in such a way. Possibly fewer if you are willing to concede that Homura is a tactical genius. Either way, I've won this argument.
>>144261718
>her being a socially awkward spaz
She was at first, but is she at all like that in the main arc? She's pretty non-spazzy having spent years trying to stop Madoka from making a wish.
>>144261751
>https://wiki.puella-magi.net/Nitro%2B_Q%26A_Panels_at_Animagic_2013
That's not an in-universe source, so it's non-cannon. It's little more than fan-theory.
>>144261168
Nigga Homura didn't manipulate anyone, you're making this up out of whole cloth. Everything we see her do in the anime timeline is fighting fires.
QB is trying to approach Madoka? Attack him.
Madoka is about to get eaten by Charlotte? Show up at the last minute to defeat Charlotte.
Madoka is about to make a wish to stop Sayaka and Kyouko from fighting? Show up at the last minute and knock out Sayaka.
Madoka is about to make a wish to stop Sayaka from witching? Show up at the last minute and shoot QB.
The closest she has to a "plan" is to team up with Kyouko to take down Walpurgis, and she even fucks that up because Kyouko cares more about Sayaka. Homura couldn't "manipulate" her way out of a paper bag.
>>144261818
>it's more logical to approach the witch angle first.
I agree to an extent, which is why my original comment has us removing Bebe from the movie altogether. If anything, Homura should have suspected both of them. And assuming her memories were only partially recovered, she'd remember QB a lot better, having had WAY more interaction with him. I suppose one could argue that her memories of QB were more thoroughly altered by the incubators...
>>144261839
>Only with the flawless execution of thousands of attempts could she possibly manipulate Walpurgis in such a way.
What the actual fuck are you talking about? She set up a gorillion explosives in an attempt to overwhelm Walpurgis with sheer force, and it failed because Walpurgis has a billion hit points.
>>144261839
She was incredibly spazzy in the main arc if not more so than early on.
She completely lacked the ability to communicate with the other girls on an emotional level, and opted instead for a roundabout method of pulling strings behind the scene. Had she tried to appear more open and friendly to the other characters and prodded at their emotional vulnerabilities, she would have been able to dictate their actions far more efficiently.
>>144261680
Did you not watch Rebellion? It was practically a 2 hour showcase of Homura's autism and how she based everything she knew about the people around her on a single month period of time and based on her own personal failings to properly communicate and understand others. She thought Kyouko being happy was fucking weird despite that being closer to her actual character when she's not being edgy from grief, she thought Sayaka was completely incompetent based on her only just becoming a magical girl for less than a month and was surprised when she could actually display some competency when she was actually used to being a magical girl, she thought Mami could never handle learning the truth because she was unable to explain it to the group properly once and never tried again yet Bebe managed to explain to her the situation and acquire her cooperation just fine, and finally she took a Madoka who had no knowledge of anything and took her word as the word of the Madoka who had become omnipresent despite what she said never once conflicted with what she had said in episode 12.
She's not some master manipulator, she's some homely girl who has spent a lot of tine in hospitals and can't properly communicate as a result and fell on love with the first person who was nice to her to the point she threw away her life and spent years repeating the same month trying to save them after only knowing them less than a month and relied heavily on being a one trick pony that would never let her accomplish anything her goal as the one thing she had going for her was ineffective against the one thing she needed to stop to accomplish her goal.
>>144261956
>fighting fires.
I completely agree. She's like an animal doing whatever works. But the thing to remember here is she's done this A LOT.
>Madoka is about to make a wish to stop Sayaka and Kyouko from fighting
How does Homura know this? Because she's seen it time and time again. She's saved Mami in the past! The fact that she doesn't cold-heartedly kill Mami in Rebellion is indication that she cares about the rest of the girls, to a degree. So she could have saved Mami at any time, after all, Homura KNOWS that Mami is going to die. So why doesn't she save her? Because doing so always causes Madoka to contract before Walgurpris, that's why. So Homura lets Mami die, every time, to stop Madoka from wishing. It's social engineering by trial-and-error; something only she can do due to her time looping.
![[Meguca]_Puella_Magi_Madoka_Magica_-_11_[BD][h264-1080p_FLAC][3C3D8FE7].mkv_snapshot_14.06_[2016.06.24_21.44.21].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/ppRb4z4.jpg "[Meguca]_Puella_Magi_Madoka_Magica_-_11_[BD][h264-1080p_FLAC][3C3D8FE7].mkv_snapshot_14.06_[2016.06.24_21.44.21].jpg")
>>144262098
>She completely lacked the ability to communicate with the other girls
This.
>I don't know how to tell you what I really feel.
>Because...I'm not even living in the same time as you!
>I'm sorry. I must sound crazy, right? I must be creeping you out.
>To you, I'm just some transfer student you met a month ago.
>But to me...
>To me, you are...
>The more I repeat all this, the further apart in time we drift from one another. Our feelings also drift further apart, and my words don't reach you anymore.
>The truth is, I think I lost myself a long time ago.
Homura literally is incapable of connecting to people, and she knows it.
![[Meguca]_Puella_Magi_Madoka_Magica_-_03_[BD][h264-1080p_FLAC][E65904CF].mkv_snapshot_13.49_[2016.06.23_19.16.14].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/wvH27fM.jpg "[Meguca]_Puella_Magi_Madoka_Magica_-_03_[BD][h264-1080p_FLAC][E65904CF].mkv_snapshot_13.49_[2016.06.23_19.16.14].jpg")
>>144262154
>How does Homura know this?
Because she's stalking Madoka and knows how the girl thinks
>So she could have saved Mami at any time
No she couldn't have, she was fuck-deep in ribbons. Don't try to tell me it was all part of her intricate plan to get herself tied up. This is fanfiction-tier.
>>144261839
>It's little more than fan-theory.
It's the guy who wrote the damn series, what are you on about "fan theory"? That's what your assumption she went through hundreds of timelines is. Given a "fan theory" from some dumbass on an anonymous imageboard who thinks some autistic girl was some social networking mastermind when she never talked to fucking anyone and constantly fucked up every time she tried, such as making an enemy out of Mami and putting Madoka in danger as a result and letting Kyouko get killed when she knew she needed her against Walprugis, and the creator of the series who probably knows a little more about what he originally uploaded intended than a retard basing his assumption on how she was able to use explosives, I'll take the "fan theory" over the one who would know what he was talking about. Especially given you have no evidence from the show to support your bullshit either.
>>144262022
>What the actual fuck are you talking about?
Did you even watch the last battle? The complexity of it? It's all planned out. She has everything set up DAYS ahead of time to make one flawless execution. Each section of the battle would take hundreds of practice attempts. (Unless she's a tactical genius, which I will happily concede should you make that assertion.
>>144262098
>dictate their actions far more efficiently.
Impossible. The final outcome of this loop was exactly what she wanted, sans being able to kill waltershot. Everything went according to plan except that last part she just cannot get right.
>>144262107
>She's not some master manipulator
see the below comment
>It's social engineering by trial-and-error
I never intended to imply that Homura was some master of communicating with people. As you can tell, neither am I.
>>144261839
>Homura becomes 100% capable of stopping Madoka from making her wish up till the night of the final battle
But she can only do that through shock value (having someone die and showing the secrets of being a magical girl) and shooting Kyubey.
>actual combat
There's nothing terribly complex about her series of explosions. She just timestops, unloads AT weapons, blankets the area with mortars, and then uses SSMs to shove Walpurgisnacht into a building full of explosions. Also magic is involved, so it there's a lot more leeway than in actual combat.
>She's pretty non-spazzy
She isn't. She can't socialize worth a damn. The only thing she can do is emphasize Madoka's fear to forestall her from becoming a magical girl.
> It's little more than fan-theory
If you want to equate the statement of the writer himself with fan theory, then sure.
>>144262317
>Because she's stalking Madoka and knows how the girl thinks
As the other guy is fond of saying, she knows fuck-all about how others think. She knows this through trial-and-error.
>This is fanfiction-tier.
Dude, seriously? What the fuck do you think EVERY DECENT DISCUSSION THREAD IS?! Unless a thread is "pozt ur waifu!" it's all theory and conjecture. Seriously, GTFO /a/ if you're going to dismiss what others theorize as mere fanfiction. She could have STOMPED Mami at any time. The only reason she didn't in the movie was because a strand of hair, something Mami wouldn't have known to do in the anime.
>>144262343
>It's the guy who wrote the damn series
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author [mic drop]
>>144262424
I wish they'd show that more in the anime though. Watching it gives the impression that Homura only went through, what was it, 4 loops? Homura's character is a lot more interesting once you know she went through about 100 loops.
>>144262363
As I pointed out in my post, she clearly showed she had misconceptions about the characters given her character biases and narrow scope of experience. She may have spent a long time with them, but she still only repeated a single month in which she was barely considered an acquaintance by most of the girls and in a concrete set of circumstances. Once that month was over and the girls were acting differently after getting to know her and each other better and becoming more comfortable with each other and their abilities, she had no idea what the fuck was going on. She doesn't know the girls nearly as well as you imply and it's made most evident in Rebellion.
![[Meguca]_Puella_Magi_Madoka_Magica_-_11_[BD][h264-1080p_FLAC][3C3D8FE7].mkv_snapshot_17.12_[2016.06.24_21.47.39].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/E7YQVRc.jpg "[Meguca]_Puella_Magi_Madoka_Magica_-_11_[BD][h264-1080p_FLAC][3C3D8FE7].mkv_snapshot_17.12_[2016.06.24_21.47.39].jpg")
>>144262363
>Each section of the battle would take hundreds of practice attempts.
This is you making shit up. It would have taken lots of tries to get to that point, yes, but you're exaggerating how many. And like the guy above me said, she has magic to help. She can probably aim the missiles in whichever direction she needs to rather than needing to setup the perfect confluence of events to get Walmart in the right position. Note the purple glow, like when she was driving the truck with magic.
>>144262526
>[mic drop]
You clearly don't belong here.
Mami a best!
>>144262424
>But she can only do that through shock value
So? I'd certainly incorporate shock-value at the right moments to accomplish a goal.
>There's nothing terribly complex about her series of explosions.
The final destination is a stadium full of explosives. Combat is more complicated than you're giving credit for.
>emphasize Madoka's fear
Yup. She does that pretty well.
>statement of the writer himself
Literally give 0 fucks about authors. If he makes another movie and Homura says there were X-time loops, then fine. But that makes her a tactical genius, then. And if she's had so few loops, that also rather makes her good at not making Madoka turn into a witch, which is problematic because everyone says she's not a natural at manipulating others. If, in under 100 loops, she gets good enough at manipulating events to the point where Madoka stops contracting before the night of Walpurgis, then she's actually incredibly socially competent.
>>144262526
>she knows fuck-all about how others think
No. This is the one thing she absolutely knows, because she learned it in the first timeline. Madoka is always, ALWAYS willing to sacrifice herself for the sake of others. This is a big part of why Homura fell for her in the first place. She wouldn't even have to go through all this if it weren't for that part of Madoka's personality.
>What the fuck do you think EVERY DECENT DISCUSSION THREAD IS?!
It being a discussion thread doesn't exempt your theories from being stupid.
She fucked up in episode 3. She tried to stop Mami from fighting Charlotte because she knew it was dangerous, but didn't take into account Mami's paranoia and got tied up. If she wanted to let Mami die the whole time, it would have made a hell of a lot more sense to just not approach her at all and let her die on her own, wouldn't it? Then she would have had more freedom to intervene how she wanted afterwards rather than being stuck in ribbons.
You're proposing this entire scenario was some kind of absurd Rube Goldberg machine of social engineering, which is in no way implied by anything in the series. That's why I say it's fanfiction-tier.
>>144262526
>[mic drop]
>>144262526
>it's all theory and conjecture
Theories and conjectures are have degrees of support based on what is presented in canon. You're saying she purposefully presented herself antagonistically towards Mami so that Mami would get herself killed? You do realize that if Homura had the capacity to appear friendly towards the group, she would have been more able to effectively convince Madoka to not accept the contract? But she can't because she's socially inept and no one has any reason to believe her, since her story is fishy as fuck.
>The_Death_of_the_Author
This does not mean you have free reign to completely misconstrue the material.
>>144262424
>She can't socialize worth a damn.
She did socialize pretty well in the first timelines.
But she did abandon this approach because no matter how honest she was, the other girls wouldn't believe her. It's clearly shown in episode 10.
The cold, badass approached proved more effective as Homu was able to postpone Madoka's transformation until walpurgis night.
>>144262363
>Impossible. The final outcome of this loop was exactly what she wanted, sans being able to kill waltershot. Everything went according to plan except that last part she just cannot get right.
Yes, you obviously have problems understanding basic human communication if this is how you interpret what went down.
Saving Madoka from making a wish until the Walfjshfiwgsjk shows up literally means nothing unless she can also keep all the other girls alive as well. She already knows she can't fight the Wekfhsjhfsk alone. She needs the other girls to help her fight it.
If you're plan is to plant a bomb, and then blow up a bomb, and you fuck up just one of those two things, then claiming "Everything went according to plan except the fact that I forgot to take the bomb out of my house", than you can't say ANYTHING went according to plan.
>>144262526
>She could have STOMPED Mami at any time. The only reason she didn't in the movie was because a strand of hair, something Mami wouldn't have known to do in the anime.
Mami would probably beat Homura 8 out of 10 times. Mami was a great tactician, she ran around able to kill witches and fimilairs single handedly for a long time and learned how to make flintlock rifles that she can form dozens of in seconds. Hell, she even learned how to make a tank. She's also much more conditioned for actual combat than Homura who has little experience actually having to fight something that fights back outside of getting her shit kicked around by Walprugis for an hour or so a month.
>>144256587
Both, but only because Kyubey is a cunt.
>Homura recognizes shit is wrong
>Conducts an experiment
>Finds out it's as fucked as she assumed
>Time-stops the world and grabs Bebe for questioning
>Bebe adamantly denies everything
>Mami basically white-knights for Bebe because MUH LONELINESS
>Turns out Homura was right anyways
>But Mami never questions Bebe on the matter (as far as we know)
It's not a simple black and white "he said, she said" thing, but actually requires a mediator to resolve. The issue is the only "mediator" available was batting for Team Madoka while the other two were batting for their own teams.
![[Meguca]_Puella_Magi_Madoka_Magica_-_11_[BD][h264-1080p_FLAC][3C3D8FE7].mkv_snapshot_17.13_[2016.06.24_21.47.40].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/4oP4URq.jpg "[Meguca]_Puella_Magi_Madoka_Magica_-_11_[BD][h264-1080p_FLAC][3C3D8FE7].mkv_snapshot_17.13_[2016.06.24_21.47.40].jpg")
>>144262564
SHAFT-brand missiles
>>144262541
>She doesn't know the girls nearly as well as you imply
When did I ever imply she knows them at all? I said she got to the point that she did through trial-and-error. You don't need to know anyone at all do do that. She did know what would happen inside of those loops pretty well, but that's from sheer experience, not intuition. As you stated, once she's removed from those loops, she has no more experience to call upon, and her intuition is lousy.
>>144262740
>it would have made a hell of a lot more sense to just not approach her at all and let her die on her own,
No, this does not work because it doesn't get Madoka to trust her at all. Homura might not know why, but she knows she has to make a half-assed attempt to stop Mami, if not just to save Madoka after Mami dies. Had Homura not been right there, and Madoka knows she's there, madoka would have contracted right there on-the-spot.
>>144262869
>I didn't watch the series: the post
Pretty sure they showed Homura joining up with the team multiple times. Taking that into consideration, and then noting Homura had done her time-travel schtick about a hundred times (at least), it actually becomes a substantially-higher number than Mami.
>Mami was a great tactician, she ran around able to kill witches and fimilairs single handedly for a long time
And then she lost her head when confronted by Bebe.
> Homura who has little experience actually having to fight something that fights back outside of getting her shit kicked around by Walprugis for an hour or so a month.
Pretty sure in a number of the timelines, the team got their shit pushed in collectively before Homura decided to attempt to one-shot it.
>>144259890
>Sayaka showed she wasn't quite so stupid in the Rebellion movie
>never tells Kyoko beforehand about their happy times together with everyone being something like a dream that would come to an end, leaving her to discover about it by herself as Kyubey and Sallaka infodump each other as they get ready to fight Homulily
>sits on her ass along with Nagisa until the entire fake Mitakihara city begins to fall apart
>following that, also fails to prevent the mayhem of the Homulily fight from happening in the first place, and all of it due to Homura trying to die in a misguided approach to protect Madoka from QB that turns out had never been needed in the first place
>has to engage in a fight with said witch to restrain her because of previous mistakes, and her little protégée Madoka is the one who ends up getting them all out of the isolaton field despite her (and Nagisa's) mission's stated goal having been of acting as a safeguard of the Goddesses powers until the time came to whisk Homura away with them
>asks devil Homura if she would destroy the new universe they were in when said new universe is the only one to date that contains a Madoka that is alive and not in imminent danger, which she has gotta know has for a long time been Homura's reason of being, her motive for having fought this far and even for still being alive at all really (as in, she ended up escaping death to live now as the devil, all for the sake of doing this)
Rebellion Sayaka not only is dumb for not taking the correct actions and also for asking dumb questions, she also comes across as an inconsiderate cunt. Fuck her.
>>144262795
>no one has any reason to believe her, since her story is fishy as fuck.
I'd say this plays a large role on her not being nice. We've seen her, in previous timelines, tell the others, and they didn't believe the cute, innocent girl. Obviously being nice gets her nowhere, so she stopped being nice.
>>144262795
>completely misconstrue the material.
I'm the only one presenting evidence based on the material, though o.o
I can honestly see Homura having a giant board at home, and she's written out all these complex scenarios to remind herself what to do next. The entire anime is one giant pot for her, based on sheer reactionary actions she's taken in the past that either succeeded or failed.inb4 comment on o.o
>>144263011
>Rebellion Sayaka not only is dumb for not taking the correct actions and also for asking dumb questions, she also comes across as an inconsiderate cunt. Fuck her.
Probably one of the worst offenders, but the movie does attempt to rationalize her shit with "isn't this better?" Personally, the whole Kyubey kidnaps Homura and Madoka tries to save her to prevent Witch's was stupid-as-fuck. Couldn't Madoka press "undo" on that entire thing?
>>144263004
Mami died because she was overconfident and got blind-sighted. Her fighting prowess in a straight up one on one is probably the best of the girls.
![[Meguca]_Puella_Magi_Madoka_Magica_-_03_[BD][h264-1080p_FLAC][E65904CF].mkv_snapshot_13.42_[2016.06.23_19.16.07].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/I6p5RIY.jpg "[Meguca]_Puella_Magi_Madoka_Magica_-_03_[BD][h264-1080p_FLAC][E65904CF].mkv_snapshot_13.42_[2016.06.23_19.16.07].jpg")
>>144262918
She was clearly surprised when this happened, dipshit, it doesn't serve any purpose to get herself tied up and out of the action. What if Mami had been defeated but not killed, and then Charlotte went and ate Madoka while Homura was still tied up? What if Madoka had been convinced to make a wish before or during the fight? She can't possibly account for all these scenarios. And it's inane to propose that Homura intentionally let Mami die in such a specific way as to get Madoka to trust her more, when nothing in the entire series suggests she's willing or able to do that kind of manipulation.
>>144262723
>shock-value at the right moments
Said shock value also hurts her long term by denying allies against Walpurgisnacht.
>The final destination is a stadium full of explosives
Which is why she uses guided missiles as rocket motors to push Walpurgisnacht there. Note how they don't detonate on impact. It's fucking magic, literally.
>She does that pretty well
And that's literally the only thing she can do. She can't ally herself with Mami; she can't prevent Sayaka's contract, nor save her from becoming a witch; she can't beat Walpurgisnacht alone.
>But that makes her a tactical genius, then
She is. She's also magical.
>manipulating events to the point where Madoka stops contracting before the night of Walpurgis
She's not "manipulating" anything; she's really just watching everyone die one by one, which plays into Madoka's rational fear and causes hesitation to accept the contract. But that means she can't win against Walpurgisnacht, because she's alone.
>She did socialize pretty well in the first timelines
>the other girls wouldn't believe her
You just defeated your own argument. Sayaka outright accuses her of trying to turn them against each other.
![[Meguca]_Puella_Magi_Madoka_Magica_-_03_[BD][h264-1080p_FLAC][E65904CF].mkv_snapshot_20.00_[2016.06.23_19.24.32].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/GXJMFt2.jpg "[Meguca]_Puella_Magi_Madoka_Magica_-_03_[BD][h264-1080p_FLAC][E65904CF].mkv_snapshot_20.00_[2016.06.23_19.24.32].jpg")
>>144263213
>masaka
Homura is clearly surprised and upset that Mami died. There's no one around for her to be acting for. She did not plan this.
>>144263004
>Pretty sure they showed Homura joining up with the team multiple times.
Yeah, and every time they showed, she was fumbling around and could barely keep her head above water until the rest of the girls got it where she could get close to the witch to stop time and throw a bomb.
>it actually becomes a substantially-higher number than Mami.
Having more experience at the shooting range isn't going to win you a duel against someone whose won countless times against people shooting at them.
>And then she lost her head when confronted by Bebe.
I said she was a good tactician and intelligent, not infallible. She's still a 14 year old girl who can get caught up in excitement and make mistakes while trying to impress people.
>Pretty sure in a number of the timelines, the team got their shit pushed in collectively before Homura decided to attempt to one-shot it.
They showed that they were able to kill Walprugis from at least the second timeline onward with varying results. Madoka and Mami more than likely were able to kill it in the first timeline as well or else Homura probably wouldn't have survived, but that's speculation.
>>144256587
Mammy was never right.
>>144263096
>namefag to make it easier
>o.o
>>144262823
>She needs the other girls to help her fight it.
Disagree. If all the girls were lined up to fight Wappersnatch, Madoka would contract immediately to help them. She would not be able to sit and watch as all her friends fought off a giant monster, especially considering all but one of them has ZERO experience fighting it and would get wiped out almost immediately.
>than you can't say ANYTHING went according to plan.
That's just obtuse. Obviously, the six weeks before her big fights went exactly as planned. Well, maybe not exactly, but within parameters acceptable enough to give the fight the go-ahead.
>>144262869
>Mami would probably beat Homura 8 out of 10 times
Mami gets STOMPED 10/10 times if Homura attacks first. This is fact. And given all the amazing things you just said about Mami, Homura was still able to hold her own against her for a damn long time, without the use of her timestop as a weapon.
>>144262564
>but you're exaggerating how many
Perhaps it needn't be a THOUSAND times, but mid-hundreds at least.
>>144262869
>Timestop
>Bullet to the soulgem
>Homu wins
The issue is that Homura never intended harm towards Mami. Furthermore, Homura outright says "I'll defeat all the witches on my own." Now "all" is an overstatement, but she's had plenty of action.
>>144263096
4chan is literal evidence that some people can spend years of their life trying to understand basic social interaction, and still suck at it.
Homura used all the methods she did because she couldn't grasp the concept of manipulating people via social persuasion.
She wasn't a sociapath, she was an autist.
>>144263420
Homura also has no chance of beating Walpurgis by herself, and she knows that.
![[Meguca]_Puella_Magi_Madoka_Magica_-_11_[BD][h264-1080p_FLAC][3C3D8FE7].mkv_snapshot_10.53_[2016.06.24_21.41.03].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/0O6PZxP.jpg "[Meguca]_Puella_Magi_Madoka_Magica_-_11_[BD][h264-1080p_FLAC][3C3D8FE7].mkv_snapshot_10.53_[2016.06.24_21.41.03].jpg")
>>144263420
>Obviously, the six weeks before her big fights went exactly as planned. Well, maybe not exactly, but within parameters acceptable enough to give the fight the go-ahead.
Wrong, shithead. The plan was to team up with Kyouko and have someone to back her up, rather than relying on her finite and clearly insufficient supply of explosives. If she's done this so many times before, she knows that what she has set up won't be enough. Homura herself is fully aware that she can't beat Walmartnight on her own, so the plan failed the moment she lost her ally.
>>144263420
>Disagree. If all the girls were lined up to fight Wappersnatch, Madoka would contract immediately to help them. She would not be able to sit and watch as all her friends fought off a giant monster, especially considering all but one of them has ZERO experience fighting it and would get wiped out almost immediately.
She could just knock Madoka out for the final fight. She's literally used that strategy before.
>>144263213
>What if Mami had been defeated but not killed
The hair would probably have gone away in that case as well. And Mami would fight to the death to protect Madoka, so I doubt it ever happened.
>nothing in the entire series suggests she's willing or able to do that kind of manipulation
I take the series itself as the necessary evidence of this. Do you REALLY THINK Homura couldn't do anything at all to stop Mami from dying? All she had to do was show up to the exact spot the witch ALWAYS appears at and defeat it first. Or stop time and defeat it when the girls are in there without them even knowing. You REALLY mean to imply that Homura could not have saved Mami? That's insane. You're insane to think such thoughts.
>>144263244
>which plays into Madoka's rational fear and causes hesitation to accept the contract
But in the other timelines, Madoka always became a magical girl right away. Why not now? Because one, random stranger keeps telling her not to? Maybe, Madoka is a bit odd like that, but I prefer to believe it's because of the way things play out, and they play out this way because Homura makes it so.
>>144263376
lol trolled
>>144261680
Not even him, but you're wrong. Just because the transformation happens during the Walpurgis fight doesn't mean that she hasn't failed her social obstacle. The fact that it was only Homura fighting at the very end while all the other megucas were dead is a testament to that fact. There was not a single timeline shown where she got all of the crew together for Walpurgisnacht, so I don't see how that isn't a social failing in your eyes
>>144263096
>Obviously being nice gets her nowhere
And being kuudere gets her no further.
>I'm the only one presenting evidence
You're misrepresenting events.
>>144263420
>If all the girls were lined up to fight Wappersnatch, Madoka would contract immediately to help them.
Since this implies that Homura has actually managed to befriend them all (impossible), then if she seriously told Madoka to not contract since it would get her killed, Madoka would trust her word. Moreover, a team of Mami, Madoka, and Homura (without milspec gear) were able to defeat Walpurgisnacht, although Mami died and Madoka turned witch.
>within parameters acceptable enough
What a load of shit. Her plan was to recruit Mami and Kyoko both, and prevent Madoka and Sayaka from contracting. She failed miserably.
>>144263497
>She wasn't a sociapath, she was an autist.
One can be both. Well, depending on your definition of sociopath. Via the newer definition that's still not 100% accepted, it would be impossible, as it would make you a psychopath. The former having an understanding of people's emotions, the latter lacking it.
>>144263518
>Homura also has no chance of beating Walpurgis by herself
I agree
>and she knows that.
Factually false. Not even she would try over and over knowing she's going to fail.
>>144263601
>she knows that what she has set up won't be enough.
Untrue. She seemed surprised that the stadium of explosives didn't work. Perhaps this was the first time she'd gotten that far? Or perhaps she'd gotten Waltersnout close before, but never perfectly centered in the stadium? Certainly she was nearing the end of her experience in the battle, as she got hit by something, which was obviously not her plan.
It's a moot point, as she obviously still had hope since she wasn't a witch.
>>144263187
>Mami died because she was overconfident and got blind-sighted
*Blind-sided
Autism aside, she had no reason to get over-confident and even told Madoka and Sayaka to stay back because it was dangerous. She also knew making mistakes was the difference between life and death, and yet refused to allow Homura to handle the witch instead or attempt to blind-side it with a surprise attack if Homura was on the wrong end of an ass-kicking.
>>144263316
>Yeah, and every time they showed, she was fumbling around and could barely keep her head above water until the rest of the girls got it where she could get close to the witch to stop time and throw a bomb.
Only the first couple of times. Sayaka in one time-line complained enough that she resorted to small-arms and automatic weapons for more close-range combat/group combat.
>Having more experience at the shooting range isn't going to win you a duel against someone whose won countless times against people shooting at them.
Pretty sure Homura had in-the-field experience both alongside Mami and the others, and on her own. Mami has only had what experience she had up to a certain point, repeated a hundred times. Homura has had to alter her strategy and approach to minimalize Madoka's involvement.
>I said she was a good tactician and intelligent, not infallible. She's still a 14 year old girl who can get caught up in excitement and make mistakes while trying to impress people.
Even after telling those same people that being a magical girl is no joke and one mistake is the difference between success and death.
>They showed that they were able to kill Walprugis from at least the second timeline onward with varying results. Madoka and Mami more than likely were able to kill it in the first timeline as well or else Homura probably wouldn't have survived, but that's speculation.
It was insinuated that a full team was capable of defeating Walpurgis, but only after everyone minus Mami and Madoka got killed.
>>144263648
>She could just knock Madoka out for the final fight
This is true. So why didn't she try getting all the girls to help her then? Why let Mami, their cannon, die? Seems like you've discovered a bit of a hole in the plot.
>>144263901
>Not even she would try over and over knowing she's going to fail.
I think it's implied somewhere in episode 12. While she knows she can't beat Walpurgis by herself, she can't admit it, because admitting that she can't beat it would be the same as giving up hope and falling into despair. She would immediately turn into a witch.
>>144263966
Not that guy, but there are probably a few plotholes in the story. Despite it being one of my favorite anime, I'll admit that. Just don't twist it into everything being intentional from Homu's side.
>>144259146
>Sayaka
>above anyone
>>144263693
Homura had her hands full protecting Madoka, she simply doesn't have the time and resources to run around pre-emptively stopping Mami from getting herself killed as well. She doesn't want Mami to die, though, so she makes a genuine attempt to stop Mami from getting into the dangerous fight. But since she's socially retarded, she can't do it. Occam's razor suggests it's way more likely to accept these events as they are presented rather than your crazy manipulation from the autist theory.
>>144263901
So you're trying to say that getting tied up by Mami, having Mami die, and coming in to save Madoka and Sayaka in in the knick of time was all apart of her master plan, yet she's also somehow stupid enough to believe she could one vs one the Walpurgis after fighting 100 times?
It's hilarious how backward you have it. None of what happened to Mami in the main arc was planned, yet she knew she couldn't beat the Walpurgis, but fought anyway because she was desperate to save Madoka even if she knew fighting him was pointless.
>>144263693
>All she had to do was show up to the exact spot the witch ALWAYS appears at and defeat it first
The problem is that the sequence of events are not always exact. There are variations between timelines (Homura is surprised in episode 1 when the witch appears, because she could not account for it due to said variations; in a more minor example, Saotome-sensei's dialogue).
Because Madoka sees a cat get run over, and cries over it. Save the cat, and Madoka doesn't make the contract.
>inb5 [citation needed]
Drama CD 1
>>144263966
Because that's fucking wrong. You're fanfiction of Homura being some mastermind manipulator is creating holes in the plot that don't actually exist.
All of that can be explained by the simple fact that Homura is just a flawed as everyone else.
>>144263966
>So why didn't she try getting all the girls to help her then?
Because she lacks the the social capability to do that, despite your insistence on the contrary.
>>144263712
>I don't see how that isn't a social failing in your eyes
It's not my eyes we're talking about. Were Homura me, I'd have been MUCH better at manipulating everyone, and I'd not be obsessed with saving just one person. This is Homura we're talking about though, and in her eyes, her ONE stated goal, her wish in fact, is to save Madoka. As long as that happens, her obstacles are cleared, no matter what the means. So if she can stop Madoka from transforming, and beat wappersnatch, then she wins.
Never mind what happens afterwards, no one can say.
>>144263876
>Homura has actually managed to befriend them all (impossible)
Perhaps it would be. I don't think that befriending everyone was really on her list of things to do. But getting them all to the final fight should have been easy enough by just killing all the dangerous witches.
>Her plan was to recruit Mami and Kyoko both
Her plan was to let Mami die to shock Madoka into not contracting, and to get Kyoko on-board enough to stop her from being a constant threat to the others.
>>144263992
>she knows she can't beat Walpurgis by herself, she can't admit it
Likely true. There's a difference bewteen knowing and knowing you know. Homura is a bit foolish in trying to do it all alone. Perhaps, had she been more socially adept, she'd have tried getting everyone together to do it as a team.
>>144264065
>Not that guy, but
And this is why I namefagged.
>everything being intentional from Homu's side.
My cat goes over to the food bowl at 10:00 every night because he knows the food is coming. I'm not arguing that Homura has carefully planned everything from the perspective that she's some mastermind at this. She got there thr9ough simple trial-and-error. Obviously, there has to be SOME level of learning what not to do in every loop. Surely, in some loops, Madoka becomes a magical girl immediately, and Homura is all "WTF OMG" and figures out why it happened, then makes sure it doesn't happen again.
>>144264447
>But getting them all to the final fight should have been easy enough by just killing all the dangerous witches
Except Sayaka throws a wrench in this by becoming a witch, which eventually results in both Mami and Kyoko's deaths.
>Her plan was to let Mami die
This scene alone defeats your theory entirely >>144263286
![[Meguca]_Puella_Magi_Madoka_Magica_-_11_[BD][h264-1080p_FLAC][3C3D8FE7].mkv_snapshot_11.51_[2016.06.24_21.42.01].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/42WnLwi.jpg "[Meguca]_Puella_Magi_Madoka_Magica_-_11_[BD][h264-1080p_FLAC][3C3D8FE7].mkv_snapshot_11.51_[2016.06.24_21.42.01].jpg")
>>144263901
>Untrue.
Watch the rest of episode 11 again. Madoka hits the nail on the head: Homura had been relying on Kyouko for that fight. The only reason Homura doesn't admit it is that she needs Madoka to believe she still has a chance, because otherwise Madoka is nigh-guaranteed to contract. That's QB's whole plan, it's why he manipulated Kyouko to get herself killed in the first place.
She still has hope because she knows even if it's futile and she has only a 1% chance of beating Waluiginight, she can still reset the timeline and try everything again. It's only once she loses hope of EVER succeeding at this whole endeavor that she starts turning into a witch. Which does in fact happen at the end of the episode.
>>144264095
>Occam's razor
The problem is that you're saying everything just turned out to be luck, so the entire thing is a massive plot-hole. This is almost 100% guaranteed to be correct. The authors almost certainly didn't plan or think in such a way, and they've even stated as much through the only 100 loops obvious bullshit. So I'm just coming up with explanations to cover plot-holes. But that's what we should be doing. It's no fun if we call it all a plot-hole and move on.
Do I think that everything I've said is 100% true? No, I don't. Obviously I cannot be right about everything. But my main point is that Homura has been through a lot of loops, and has a pretty good grasp about what is going on. And I do think she made minimal effort to save Mami. She could have 100% saved her here if she wanted, having seen this play out at least dozens of times for sure. Maybe something was slightly different and she got caught off guard by Mami's hair this time. Butterfly effect, shit happens. I think she had grown accustomed to Mami dying, and didn't make nearly the effort she could have, or maybe she was just getting burned out saving all of them every time and them just getting in her way during the fight with wallynetch and dying anyways.
>>144264744
>turned out to be luck
No, it's character flaws and extreme circumstances working against her. The whole point of the anime was to create a circumstance where it is logically impossible for Homura to win.
>>144264744
>you're saying everything just turned out to be luck, so the entire thing is a massive plot-hole
How the fuck is that a plot-hole? Homura is far from omniscient or omnipotent, and she's not even incredibly competent. And she can't talk to people to save her life. Her not making the absolute best choices isn't a plot hole, it's to be expected.
>She could have 100% saved her here if she wanted
Maybe, maybe not. What we do know is that she definitely cannot afford to make that kind of investment of effort as long as Madoka is still her top priority. It's hard enough saving one person. She did make at least a token effort to keep Mami alive, and based on everything else she's shown to feel about Mami, I think it's very unreasonable to say she just callously sent her senpai to her death as part of a calculated ploy to get Madoka[s trust.
>>144264447
Homura simply solved one side of a Rubix cube by keep Madoka from making a wish until the Walpurgis appeared, which doesn't actually get you much closer to solving the entire thing.
Homura knew she had to do two things.
1. Keep Madoka from making a wish
2. Gather a team to help fight the Walpurgis
If letting Mami die, Sayaka turn in to a which, and causing Kyouka become unavailable to fight the Walpurgis was apart of her plan to save Madoka, her plan makes no god damn sense. In you're mind, you've made out Homura to be some kind of mastermind planner who is somehow still too stupid enough to realize she needs a team to beat the Walpurgis.
How is that a more logical conclusion than believing she was just a social inept little girl who even with years of running the same scenario over and over again, was still incapable of finding the solution?
>>144264744
>So I'm just coming up with explanations to cover plot-holes.
What plot holes? There is nothing that contradicts anything in the story, what you're suggesting with your Fanfiction would present more plotholes than anything. This seems like a lack of understanding of what a pothole is on your part, it isn't something that has no explanation or is left ambiguous.
>>144265035
>was still incapable of finding the solution
To nitpick-- the solution does not exist.
>>144265118
Not for Homura as she is unable to inspire anybody to follow or listen to her and lacks the magical ability to take out the one Witch who is impervious to conventional weaponry. She was also attempting to solve the wrong problem to begin with, Madoka was never against becoming a magical girl, she just didn't want to be deceived into making a wish of hope only for it to cause despair.
>>144264447
>So if she can stop Madoka from transforming, and beat wappersnatch, then she wins.
A goal that she never accomplishes and never can accomplish using the methods that she uses. That's the point.
>It's not my eyes we're talking about
Not true. Yeah she has her own stated goal, but it's because of that goal that she also had to preserve the life of more than just herself and Madoka. It's made clear to the viewer that she cannot defeat Walpurgis on her own. She repeatedly fails to garner the trust of or rescue any of her other teammates throughout the majority of her loops, and that is shown in no uncertain terms to lead to Madoka dropping Walpurgis to rescue Homu. You stated that she solely failed her mission from a combat standpoint when clearly both social ability and combat capability play a role, and I'd argue that the social aspect is possibly the most important of the two, considering that Madoka doesn't even turn witch in the first timeline and they still manage to beat Walpurgis.
In the end, it's because she's so focused on Madoka and no one else that she loses. Just because she has her reasons doesn't make it any less dumb on her end
>>144264704
>Homura had been relying on Kyouko for that figh
Perhaps. It is quite possible that not everything went exactly as planned. But Homura still seemed surprised that Walpurgis survived the explosion. She was just staring, her guard completely down, as if assessing the situation for next time, or wondering how much damage she'd done. She still thinks she has hope, whether or not she subconsciously thinks she's doomed to failure isn't really something she can probably figure out. I'd say you're wrong if you think she'd NEVER be able to eventually win on her won, though.
>>144264990
But the events in the loop we see go so perfectly. Madoka doesn't contract for six whole weeks. We know her personality, we know she'd do it right away. She was the second magical girl originally, after all, right? The argument you're making actually relies on Madoka being extremely wishy-washy and full of doubt to be so easily persuaded not to contract, rather than than doubt arising from legitimate concerns having seen friends die so traumatically. Perhaps the flower-scene Madoka was correct about her nature? Perhaps within the loops is where Madoka does some serious growing-up and takes responsibility, but before that she's actually wishy-washy? It's an avenue that could be explored.
>>144265118
I agree, but she could never come to this conclusion like I said early on in this thread because her incompetence made it so she always had a viable reason to blame herself and try again.
Had she actually been able to optimize her actions, and discovered that even then, there's literally no way to accomplish her goals because certain things will ALWAYS happen, she would have fell in to despair and become a witch.
Like I said, her own stupidity saved her.
![[Meguca]_Puella_Magi_Madoka_Magica_-_11_[BD][h264-1080p_FLAC][3C3D8FE7].mkv_snapshot_19.10_[2016.06.24_21.49.37].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/ZPysE4C.jpg "[Meguca]_Puella_Magi_Madoka_Magica_-_11_[BD][h264-1080p_FLAC][3C3D8FE7].mkv_snapshot_19.10_[2016.06.24_21.49.37].jpg")
>>144265327
>I'd say you're wrong if you think she'd NEVER be able to eventually win on her won, though
I think given the scenario she had to overcome, she never had a chance of beating it on her own. That collection of weapons she amassed must have been very time-consuming to collect, and it still wasn't enough. How much time can she afford to devote to setting up the arena when she still has to pull the never-ending job of baby-sitting Madoka and her friends? How many explosives would she need to actually beat Whataburger Night? Twice the amount she had? Three times? More? It didn't seem phased by her assault at all. Oh, and she still needs to hunt witches for grief seeds to pay for all this magic usage too. Eventually there's a wall of just not being able to do everything that needs to be done in 48 days, time-stop or no timestop.
Homura was left
>>144265014
>It's hard enough saving one person.
I agree. Given what happened in Rebellion, it's impossible to say that Homura maliciously allowed Mami to die. I think she was becoming apathetic over if the others lived or died, focusing instead on Madoka only. And once you cross the bridge, it's not a far walk to go to purposefully allowing the others to die, knowing full-well they probably will anyways. It's like letting one friend die to save another. It's a cold choice any of us could make if we had to, and she made it *quite* a few times.
There's no saying she did the same thing every time either. Maybe Mami usually beats this guy, and she just showed up as a token gesture, or to make Mami more alert.
>>144265035
>which doesn't actually get you much closer to solving the entire thing.
You're implying she can think that far ahead? I'm not really sure how that goes against anything I've said. I'm inclined to agree with you, actually. I doubt Homura has any plan for after Walpurgis.
>she needs a team to beat the Walpurgis
I tend to agree with what others have said, and that is that Homura isn't very good at making teams. And what if in 100% of loops where Mami lives, Madoka contracts? Madoka will most certainly make a wish if she thinks things are all fun and games. Someone has to die. Things HAVE to happen to stop Madoka. Homura knows what these things are through sheer trials. She's no mastermind, she's just seen it all happen at least hundreds of times.
>>144265574
Her soul gem and time shield are both on her left hand
You may be on to something here
This has got to be the most actual discussion in a meguca thread I've ever seen.
>>144265247
Madoka explicitly asks her to prevent her from becoming a magical girl.
>We know her personality, we know she'd do it right away
You're fucking kidding, right? She was hesitating because she didn't know what to wish for. Again, the reason she made a contract initially was because she saw a cat get run over and wished it back to life on the spur of the moment. She's also trusting-- she doesn't believe Homura to be a bad girl, and wants to befriend her, which is why she takes her words at least somewhat into consideration.
>>144265722
Sometimes an idiot saying stupid things is needed to shake up the status quo of circlejerking
Sad but true
>>144265327
>Perhaps the flower-scene Madoka was correct about her nature?
Of course she is, but nothing she says in that scene contradicts what she said in episode 12. Homura describes the "dream" the exact same way she said in episode 12 before Madokami outright tells her she's wrong, and when the Madoka who knows nothing about the events of the series hears the description of events from how Homura perceived it, notably the same way Madokami told her was wrong, the flower scene Madoka corroborates what Madokami said perfectly, by Homura chooses to misconstrue what she's saying as confirmation that she's right because Madoka is saying that the way Homura described the events isn't possible, which Homura takes as her saying the actual series of events wasn't possible and that she could never possibly do something like that because she is unable to realize her own biases in how she described the situation and how it conflicts with the actual events and how Madoka was saying those contradictions were things she'd never do.
>>144265282
>A goal that she never accomplishes and never can accomplish using the methods that she uses. That's the point.
OK. So she's doing things wrong? Doesn't negate a single thing I have said.
>You stated that she solely failed her mission from a combat standpoint when clearly both social ability and combat capability play a role,
Again, we know she failed from a social standpoint, she doesn't.
>it's because she's so focused on Madoka and no one else that she loses.
We've certainly found some common ground here. Now back to by original statement:
>You do realize that after HUNDREDS of timeloops, Homura became incredibly efficient at manipulating everyone into a complex sequence of events that stopped the suicidally altruistic Madoka from becoming a magical girl, right?
This path seems to be a dead-end, but only we know this. Perhaps in time, Homura herself would have realized this and taken another path.
>>144265815
Holy run-on sentence batman
>>144265743
>Madoka explicitly asks her to prevent her from becoming a magical girl.
No, go re-watch the scene before Homura shoots her in episode 10, she explicitly asks Homura to stop her "stupid self" from being deceived which Homura takes as her asking her to stop her from ever becoming a magical girl. This is important as the scene in episode 11 where Madoka's mother asks her if she's sure that she's not being deceived and that nobody is tricking her and she says no, this is the show telling you Homura was able to fulfil her promise even if it was in a way she didn't intend.
I'm not sure why the second part of your post is directed at me, I didn't say anything relevant to any of that.
>>144265870
My bad.That's what happens when you shitpost at work on a phone and can only see 3 lines at a time.
>>144265540
>Eventually there's a wall of just not being able to do everything that needs to be done in 48 day
Very true. I was thinking nukes or something, but you need codes to fire them, or very extensive knowledge to make them work without codes. And who knows, maybe she tried nukes but couldn't get watcherface far enough away to use them safely. The path she was going down truly was a dead-end. Had she only fully realized this sooner. Probably wouldn't have mattered, given her social skills.
>>144265722
>This has got to be the most actual discussion in a meguca thread I've ever seen.
It's a bit deeper than usual.
>>144265811
>shake up the status quo of circlejerking
Well, I can say I've learned a few things I'd not considered before. Like the above revelation. Playing along nicely isn't always the way.
>>144265982
See, that's a big difference in interpretation. I'm not saying yours is a wrong, but Homura's is indeed the most straightforward one. Now, I agree that Madoka is okay with the sacrifice involved in becoming a magical girl, but in this case, it's an immense communication blunder on Madoka's part to have used that phrasing, as it makes Homura's job that much harder.
I meant to quote >>144265327
>We know her personality, we know she'd do it right away.
>>144256587
Homura did nothing wrong
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQp8GWdpYug
This probably happened
>>144265815
>Homura chooses to misconstrue what she's saying as confirmation that she's right
But Homora was right, and did nothing wrong, morally.
>>144265743
>she saw a cat get run over and wished it back to life on the spur of the moment
I really need to get cracking on those drama CDs...
Is there a text log of the drama CDs somewhere? Books on tape have to be the WORST medium in the world, especially when you have to read subs anyways.
>>144265815
The most important takeaway from the flower scene is essentially this:
Madoka is willing to undertake the sacrifice, but would have preferred to live a normal life. It's simply that she did not have a choice in the matter, since she realized Homura could not have won even if she reset time again. This informs Homura's decision to render Madoka's sacrifice unnecessary, so that she can be with her family and friends.
>>144266374
>But Homora was right, and did nothing wrong, morally.
Except for forcing her ideals onto others and forcing people into what she believes to be the best solution against their will where she has to erase their memories to keep them complacent, sure. I would say that was morally wrong, but maybe you're a sadist who likes having other people force themselves on you.
So Homu is the Devil, Madoka is the God, Mami is the Mediator... what about Sayaka and Kyouko?
>>144266629
Fuck me up, senpai, meant to say masochist.
>>144266649
Poor Nagisa.
>>144266649
Sayaka is the archangel Michael (get it?)
Kyouko is no one cares
Nagisa is REALLY no one cares
>>144266649
>Devil
That's not how you spell Jesus
>>144266629
>Stopping the Incubators and resetting the world to be more or less what it was like before QB fucked everyone over
Yup, morally right.
>>144266733
Madoka is clearly Jesus though
Holy Trinity: Madoka, Madokami, and Law of Cycles
Okay that doesn't entirely make sense but just roll with it
>>144265855
>You do realize that after HUNDREDS of timeloops, Homura became incredibly efficient at manipulating everyone into a complex sequence of events that stopped the suicidally altruistic Madoka from becoming a magical girl, right?
What? Absolutely not. Take pic related for example. She explicitly tells Sayaka that she doesn't want Madoka to suffer due to Sayaka destroying herself, and offers her a grief seed to help out. Sayaka refuses because of moralfaggotry and Homu threatens to fucking kill her instead. And lo and behold, she fails to prevent Madoka's suffering here, as Sayaka yet again becomes a witch later on. If Homu were truly an expert manipulator as you claim, she would have found a way to save Mami and Sayaka (and by extension, Kyouko) and not have acted with general hostility towards all of them either.
As for the top portion of your post, in episode 11, when Madoka goes to Homu's room and Homu talks about Kyouko, she doesn't directly state that she doesn't think she can win alone, but she does say that she allied with her so Kyouko wouldn't lose face. If we take that at face value (even though she looks away as she says this that she didn't need Kyouko), then that means that she understands on some level that she does, in fact, need more people to take on Walpurgis, and therefore also accepts that she lost on some social level as well
>>144266649
Sayaka is the First Knight
Kyouko is the Blood Knight
Homu is both the Transcendent One and the Shieldmaiden
Madokami is the Blessed Lady
Shamefur dispray, you people forgetting to ask about our green ranger that will come to save us from the yuri.
>>144266836
>expert manipulator
I already clarified this. It has nothing to do with her skills, but rather trial-and-error. She's gotten good at choosing what she thinks is the right path, nothing more.
>she understands on some level that she does, in fact, need more people to take on Walpurgis
That becomes pretty sad, then, to think of her facing the battle many times alone, wishing she had the wherewithal to get others to help her out. I don't know if I can accept that, though, because initially, she was pretty good at at least working with the others. Once she turned serious, I think her mentality became that of "I need no one but Madoka".
>>144266862
Hitummy a shit
>>144266605
>It's simply that she did not have a choice in the matter, since she realized Homura could not have won even if she reset time again.
Madoka never realized that as she had no real understanding of Homura's situation until after she made the wish so it wouldn't have influenced her decision at all.
The best way to look at Madoka is this, she wants to be of use to and help people to a fault. She cares little about herself so long as she can be of use to others. We see this in the timelibes where she has become a magical girl and is at the peak of her character arc. She hates feeling useless, but is still very thoughtful and mindful to make sure she's making the most optimal decision available to her in that moment. Madoka discovering magical girls pretty much made it a foregone conclusion that she would become a magical girl at some point. Either she would become a magical girl to help innocent people from falling victim to witches, to assist her friends and relieve them of some of their burden, or to prevent all the wishes of all magical girls from falling into despair.
Madoka is much like her mother, she can only see what's going immediately in front of her. When asked, Junko would wish for her boss to retire. When Madoka asks why she wouldn't just wish to become the boss herself, Junko reveals that the thought never occurred to her. Madoka is the same way, they are both unable to see the situations in front of then from any other perspective and have a pretty narrow scope. This is why Madoka cannot understand all of Kyuubey's reasoning for the magical girl system, she just sees people in front of her suffering and wants to help them.
Would Madoka be happy if she could grow up and drink with her mother while complaining about her problems? Absolutely, but that doesn't imply that she isn't also happy with the decision she makes to help all magical girls across time and space. She's at her peak when she's helping others.
>>144267133
>choosing what she thinks is the right path
And she fails miserably. Literally the only thing she can do is DELAY, not prevent, Madoka's contract. None of her plans succeed by any stretch.
>she was pretty good at at least working with the others
They take her in out of pity since she's a shy novice magical girl who isn't particularly competent. She can't convince them of the truth; they don't take her seriously. That's not being "pretty good at working with the others." Again, Sayaka ultimately dooms all her plans of forming a team to failure.
>>144266782
More like antagonizing an alien race more advanced than we could possibly imagine and ultimately going to cause them to retaliate. Incubators aren't the alien species, they're a hivemind created to use the magical girl system and harness grief seeds to combat entropy. They have no emotion because they're not created to have emotion to better execute their duties. Making them your bitch and antagonizing them is only rattling the cage of a sleeping giant.
>>144267343
>It's simply that she did not have a choice in the matter, since she realized Homura could not have won even if she reset time again.
>Madoka never realized that until after she made the wish
Not true. Kyubey connected the dots by himself and relayed it to Madoka. Even if it was not Madoka herself the one to realize it, she knew of it at the time she made her decision, because QB told her about it.
>>144267343
>Madoka never realized that as she had no real understanding
That's part of the problem. There is a fundamental, long running disconnect between Madoka and Homura, which leads to no end of issues.
>The best way to look at Madoka is this, she wants to be of use to and help people to a fault.
Agreed.
>but that doesn't imply that she isn't also happy with the decision she makes
I'm not saying that she's unhappy, but rather; it's just a matter of preference. She will gladly make the sacrifice if it's necessary, but she is denying herself (and others) some happiness by doing so. But again, the alternative is to let Homura repeat, which is not a good idea. At the very least, she would have been given pause had she the prior knowledge of the consequences of her wish.
>>144256587
Mami didn't put a bullet in her head and save everyone a lot of trouble.
>>144267494
>Making them your bitch and antagonizing them is only rattling the cage of a sleeping giant.
I hope so. Will make for a more interesting movie.
>>144267494
Kyubey himself comments that human emotion is too dangerous to be tampered with-- and he's entirely correct-- the actions of the Incubator species has created two reality-altering entities that fundamentally warp the universe in scope beyond even the Incubators' power.
>>144267639
Homura put a bullet in her own head.
>>144267494
But QB says that where they are from it is the exception, not the norm, to find someone with emotions and thus able to generate energy through their schemes. Aliens that control the QBs at best are not that different from them, and at worst they are one and the same. At any rate, said aliens coming for payback for the tampering with the incubators is not a emotion-free response one would expect of them.
>>144267133
>I already clarified this. It has nothing to do with her skills, but rather trial-and-error. She's gotten good at choosing what she thinks is the right path, nothing more.
D-Do you even know what the word "manipulate" means, anon? You can't just attach your own definition to the word and then act like that's what you meant the whole time
Fact is, she didn't manipulate shit. The closest she got to manipulating anything was managing to stop Madoka from contracting at certain points where Kyubey was coercing her, and even that never totally worked. Even when she was trying to act like everything was alright to Madoka in Ep 11, Madoka called her bluff outright. Homura "choosing what she thinks is the right path" has literally nothing to do with manipulation
>>144267864
>aliens coming for payback
Probably not payback, but to collect more energy perhaps?
>>144267864
Not true, if the Incubators found a more efficient way to combat entropy and they are being hindered by Homura then it's perfectly reasonable that the aliens would come dispose of some unhinged bitch getting in their way of their entropy crusade.
![Puella.Magi.Madoka.Magica.the.Movie.Part.III.Rebellion.mkv_snapshot_01.33.19_[2014.04.03_03.26.28].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/qGtNKIl.jpg "Puella.Magi.Madoka.Magica.the.Movie.Part.III.Rebellion.mkv_snapshot_01.33.19_[2014.04.03_03.26.28].jpg")
>>144267981
It's more logical for then to get the fuck outta dodge and go find some other species with emotions
Or go back to the drawing board and figure out a different way to fight entropy because this whole thing really did not work out well
>>144267938
I'm not changing any definitions. Nor do I take back what I said, I merely clarify. Do you really think you could go trough hundreds of time loops without starting to manipulate the way things go? Go watch Groundhog's Day.
>>144268083
They can't, they already expressed they were going to leave and Homura prevented then from doing so, hence why they would have to use force to get her out of the picture.
>>144268139
Nothing that went down in the main series was deliberate, apart from convincing Kyoko to ally with her and forestalling Madoka's contract. And even those aspects fail because Kyoko gets herself killed and Madoka ultimately does make a wish.
>>144268305
>forestalling Madoka's contract
And that's all I've really argued.
>manipulating everyone into a complex sequence of events that stopped the suicidally altruistic Madoka from becoming a magical girl
You're argument that it was dumb luck just doesn't sit well with me.
>>144268139
>I'm not changing any definitions
manipulate (v.)
1. handle or control (a tool, mechanism, etc.), typically in a skillful manner
2.control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously
You have been given several examples where this was clearly not the case (i.e. letting Mami and Kyouko die, letting Sayaka turn witch, etc). What exactly has she manipulated to, as you stated, "expert" level effect? Delaying Madoka from contracting a couple of times? Manipulation would imply that she turns the situation to her advantage in some way. A situation which has not once even remotely gone properly
>Do you really think you could go trough hundreds of time loops without starting to manipulate the way things go? Go watch Groundhog's Day.
You're right, and that's precisely what I've been saying. Homura hasn't effectively manipulated anything of importance, which is why people have been saying that she was dumb.
>>144268371
You're arguing that Homura deliberately arranged Mami's death to shock Madoka when that's very clearly not the case. Homura's intention was to simply talk Madoka out of it; she merely used what happened to go down out of her control to her advantage. She did not arrange anything strategically that did not fall apart.
>>144268535
>A situation which has not once even remotely gone properly
Bullshit. Pure bullshit. Watch the ENTIRE SHOW and tell me where the situation goes south. Oh, episode 12? Everything went fucking fine till Walpurgisnacht.
What did she manipulate? You seem to be thinking that one cannot simply manipulate through inaction. Anyth9ing you do, knowing the outcome, is manipulation. Our entire days are FILLED with manipulating others. Saying "please" is manipulation. All I said is that she's become very adept at picking and choosing what she does and does not do to alter the course of what others do and do not do in this time loop.
>>144268572
>Homura's intention was to simply talk Madoka out of it
Mami had to die. Are you arguing that had Mami been fine, Madoka would not have contracted? She contracted over a fucking cat dying, obviously anything could set her off. A HUGE, shocking death, right in front of her face, was required to scare her off making that wish.
>>144256587
>Who was in the wrong here?
They're making war, not love.
>>144256587
Nobody, that's the point, as well as the key component of all good conflict.
>>144269069
Oh yeah, I forgot that everything went as planned and nothing bad happened until the end of the final loop :^)
And also I asked you to give an example of something significant that she manipulated. Preferably something that didn't end up working against her in some way. If you're going to claim that somebody is an "expert manipulator", you should have something to back it up instead of changing the goalposts
>>144269069
>Everything went fucking fine till Walpurgisnacht.
What an absolute load of shit.
This was Homura's plan:
-Recruit Mami (fail)
-Prevent Madoka's contract (success until Walpurgisnacht)
-Prevent Sayaka's contract (fail)
-Recruit Kyoko (success, but then she gets herself killed)
-Defeat Walpurgisnacht (fail)
She manipulates, sure, but she does not manipulate to any long-term advantage.
>Mami had to die
No, Homura simply needed to convey the notion that "being meguca is suffering" into Madoka's mind. If Homura tells her outright that she's witnessed more of her friends' deaths than she can count, and the reason that she does not want Madoka to accept the contract because of that, do you seriously believe Madoka would dismiss that?
>>144269522
>expert manipulator
Not my words. I said merely that she was efficient at manipulating.
>give an example of something significant that she manipulated
Literally everything. All went exactly as planned, and any reactions she had also went as planned to further manipulate. She even manipulated YOU with her "masaka" at Mami's defeat. (Seriously, "Oh no" is the most retarded way to translate "masaka").
>>144269551
>do you seriously believe Madoka would dismiss that?
Everyone was always dismissing Homura, so, yes. "being meguca is suffering" is simply not enough.
>>144269551
>do you seriously believe Madoka would dismiss that?
But Madoka is naive. At one point she would want to contract anyway to help a friend or something, because she's just that nice.
And she would be manipulated by QB. He's quite good at manipulating people contrary to Homu. QB would also try and use Mami and Sayaka as useful idiots like he did in the series.
>>144269754
>I said merely that she was efficient at manipulating.
Semantics argument about efficiency versus expertise aside, her efficiency is minimal.
>She even manipulated YOU with her "masaka" at Mami's defeat
It's an expression of disbelief. In this context, it's the exact opposite of "just as planned/keikaku doori."
Also, the implication that she's breaking the fourth wall is fucking retarded.
>>144269754
>Everyone was always dismissing Homura
Except Madoka. She gave some measure of trust to her even when Homura was at her most mysterious.
>>144269842
Right, but it would at least buy her time. She needs to plant the seed of fear into Madoka's mind, and play into Madoka's insecurities.
>>144269754
>She even manipulated YOU with her "masaka" at Mami's defeat
What the fuck?
>>144269754
>She's so good at manipulating, she even manipulated you :^)
Jesus Christ senpai, if I wasn't sure you were baiting before, I am now. For the record, there was absolutely no one around her, so unless she was trying to manipulate the familiars, your argument doesn't hold.
>Not my words. I said merely that she was efficient at manipulating.
Okay, then I'll ask again: What exactly did she manipulate efficiently? I fail to see what the difference is
>>144269935
>efficiency versus expertise
There's a HUGE difference between being an expert at something in general and being efficient given a very narrow situation. It seems to be where all this confusion stems. Homura is only manipulative in this very narrow area of 6 weeks.
>>144270051
>What the fuck?
Thread has been beaten to death, I'm not even trying anymore. I've already made my argument. Homura could have easily saved everyone given her knowledge of the future and she didn't.
![[Meguca]_Puella_Magi_Madoka_Magica_-_11_[BD][h264-1080p_FLAC][3C3D8FE7].mkv_snapshot_23.11_[2016.06.24_21.53.38].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/Nw7QZfv.jpg "[Meguca]_Puella_Magi_Madoka_Magica_-_11_[BD][h264-1080p_FLAC][3C3D8FE7].mkv_snapshot_23.11_[2016.06.24_21.53.38].jpg")
>>144270129
>Homura could have easily saved everyone given her knowledge of the future
Homura couldn't save even the one person who was most important to her. You're retarded.
>>144270129
Ok.
Wait wait I got it
There's two ribbons
Why don't they each just wear one instead of giving it back and forth to each other
Endgame is clearly ponytail Madoka and ponytail Homura
>>144270482
Wouldn't surprise me to be honest.
>144270129
Again, her efficiency is minimal. Her plan fails utterly.
> Homura could have easily saved everyone
No, should could have never saved anyone. The personalities of the individuals in question and the circumstances made it literally impossible.
>>144270209
>Homura couldn't save even the one person
OK OK OK, she couldn't have saved anyone since they were all fucked eventually anyways, well, except Sayaka, they would all become witches. But she could have stopped them all from dying before Walpurgisnacht.
>>144270221
>no one can actually see through your behavior
You mean there are TWO people on this planet that think getting confused during threads is bad?! HOLY SHIT NO WAY
Listen up, kiddo, I've been in enough of these heavy-debate threads to have people respond to me when it's really someone else, or they respond to me as if I were some other guy. namefagging has it's place, and you'll notice I didn't even start using it till quite a few posts.
>>144270221
>not even a fan of the Madoka series
You must have me confused with someone else.
>>144270686
>But she could have stopped them all from dying before Walpurgisnacht.
Sayaka's unpreventable death inevitably leads to both Mami's and Kyoko's. She can't save anyone at all.
>>144270969
What a paranoid, sad little world you live in.
Also, how is >>144269208 a shitpost about Homura?
Oh, nice try copying my name. Here's an 8 character tripcode. You can look it up and see I'm QUITE positive about Madoka.
>>144271215
Do not respond to anti-crack-kun.
![Thmb [Meguca]_Puella_Magi_Madoka_Magica_-_03_[BD][h264-720p_AAC][DD5B5B4C].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/HbkdbTT.jpg "Thmb [Meguca]_Puella_Magi_Madoka_Magica_-_03_[BD][h264-720p_AAC][DD5B5B4C].jpg")
>>144271336
Oh my, am I being trolled by him?
>>144271621
>getting this mad about fanart
>implying homura probably isn't a lesbian
Seriously, anon... You need to calm down now. You've turned this thread into shitposting, and Ile have none of it.
>>144270686
Just stop, you haven't been even trying to make a point anymore. Now you're just a nuisance.
>>144256587
Mami.
>>144270482
That... Would work out
>>144270482
Expecting it to be honest.
>>144270482
I hope Urobuchi is reading this thread.
>>144274680
I don't. I'd much rather they come up with something unexpected. As long as they keep it good.
I want Sayaka to plunder my booty
>>144275525
I'd swab her poop deck.
Can we agree that Sayaka is the ultimate cuck?
>fucking your life up for some guy only to have some bimbo steal him from you
too much autism in this thread
>>144256587
Me, for watching this shit.
>>144274737
I would still love to see it animated.
>>144256587
The one who waited until she was restrained to half ass an explanation for her attempted murder. Mami would probably have helped her if she'd just talked
>>144275615
>get lesbian magical girlfriend instead
I don't see why this is a problem.
Find a flaw.
>>144278613
There's only one of her
>>144278613
Too much sayaka and not enoughmiki
>>144256587
Both of them.
They should be making love, not war.
>>144278613
not brown enuff
>>144278802
You already made this exact same shitpost you dipshit
>>144278865
How is this a shitpost?
>>144279548
I think you're overreacting, dude. They're just pictures. Relax.
>>144279958
>you have no worth as a human being
That sounds like an overreaction to me.
>>144280191
How am I attacking you? I'm just posting images on an imageboard.
>>144280426
>low quality
That's your opinion, man.
>damages threads
They only do "damage" if you freak out about them
>degrades the characters
What is this even supposed to mean?
>>144281441
>the fact that you are wrong
But I don't think I'm wrong.
>>144278613
She cannot summon Kevin-kun here.
>>144281622
We'll see about that.
Also Sayaka a qt
>>144281662
But I enjoy living.
>>144278613
Blinded by her immature notion of morality.
>>144256587
>perpetual failure
>hateful bitch
>abuses Madoka
>has a loveless obsession with owning Madoka
>ruined everything constantly
>psychopathic murderer
>literally evil itself having destroyed Madoka's heaven
>torments and brainwashes everyone for her own amusement
>Madoka never cared about her
>fucked a wraith out of lust and selfish spite
>is the most selfish whore ever
>original wish was made solely to keep Madoka to herself
>most hated character by far globally
Homura was always wrong and never loved. It's justice the fanbase hates her.
>>144281807
What do you think about Tomohisa?
>>144281724
Where did the Homu touch you, anon?
>>144281781
>No one enjoys you being alive
>Mathematically it's better for you to be dead.
You obviously have a lot of hate in your heart. Madoka wouldn't want that, she knows you're better than this.
>there are dipshits who think Madoka actually loves Homura
>there are dipshits who think Homura isn't the most hated character
>there are dipshits who think Madoka Magica has yuri in it
>there are dipshits who think Homura ever did a single good thing and isn't a selfish bitch with a selfish wish and an obsession
>there are dipshits who think Homura is a hero and not a villain who consistently ruined everything
>there are dipshits who think Sayaka no longer loves Kyosuke when she cries seeing him with Hitomi
>there are dipshits who think the new movie won't be about the girls killing Homura and ending her reign of evil
>Q: Is Homura in love with Madoka?
>Urobuchi: It is a very twisted love, but it is love nontheless. It is kind of scary to be honest.
>Q: Does Madoka like her back?
>Urobuchi: Madoka never loved Homura. From the beginning is was just Homura's obsession. It's that kind of tragedy of never being cared for that makes you evil. In this case, Homura is evil because no one has ever loved her or ever will.
>Q: That sounds horrible! (laughs)
>Urobuchi: Some people deserve loneliness. I think Homura is one of those people. (laughs)
>>144281910
Any proof for any of that?
>>144282028
Source please?
>>144282076
Why have you cursed our ears with this filth?
>>144282070
Please don't reply to Homuhater. The fact that googling the Q&A only leads to /a/ should give you an idea of where it's from: his ass.
>>144282130
Madoka hates Homura.
>>144282147
>when you get proven wrong
You have never proven anyone wrong
>>144282190
any evidence of this?
>>144282412
Neither side was "proven" or "disproven"
>>144256587
>Who was in the wrong here?ACK
>>144282661
>Answer me this. What do you think it takes to get an absolute answer of right and wrong?
Tests and observation to determine what is true.
If you're talking about moral "right" and "wrong", philosophical discussion and an examination of society.Also, given the definition you linked, you're using it in the wrong context when you say it
>>144259890
>They were ALL naive, but Madoka was the only one smart enough to be cynical with the whole "Careful what you wish for" thing, and ultimately made the wish that fixed everyone's shit.
Uh no, Madoka had that ideal jammed into her head by Kyubey. She wasn't smart enough to figure it out on her own.
This is why I don't visit Madoka threads often.
Fucking crack spamming autist ruins them.
