Did CG animation go too far?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1iz4L-5zkQ
What will anime look like in 5-10 years?
FIX
THE
FRAMERATE
Why can't they just learn? When you watch this, or Sidonia, it feels like your computer is lagging
Learn from fucking Beast Wars, Jesus.
>>143472896
If this is CG then I guess we don't need line animation anymore. It looks fucking amazing.
I've always said CG would one day surpass Hand Drawn not just on a technical level but with quality as well.
Can't wait for hand drawn fags to start getting mad because there is nothing they can say hand drawn does better anymore.
>>143472992
Studio GOONEYS, the ones who did Show by Rock CG sequences, even understands that
>>143472896
I'm more bothered by the robotic voices
>>143473077
You seem really keen to start an argument, friend.
>>143473240
Vocaloid has been around for a long time now.
>>143473251
This proves nothing, all that matters is the final product, although that is just badly made.
I could post any number of horribly drawn keyframes
it only looks good when it looks like hand-drawn animation. And animators have to go to great lengths to make 3D animation look like hand-drawn animation (they have to alter the models to fit the perspective, create custom shading maps, change the framerate to make it LESS smooth and therefore more natural, add smudge effects etc..)
in most shorts it still looks like a puppet that moves. Not like a drawing that moves.
>>143472896
If they didnt make the framerate absolute trash to imitate hand drawn then this would actually be pretty damn good. Cant wait to see it become indistinguishable in 5 years
>>143472992
It's just really expensive, double the framerate double the effort and using interpolated movement looks really artificial.
With lower framerate where your brain gets to fill in the gaps you don't get as much uncanny valley even if it's choppy.
Still some parts of Sidonia went too far and were almost unwatchable.
>>143473544
The uncanny feeling only lasts until you get used to it. The Monotagari was uncanny as fuck to me until about 8 episodes in then it was just like any other anime
How was God Eater made? I can't find it on lists of CGI shows.
>>143472896
>What will anime look like in 5-10 years?
Visibly different but not significantly different.
>>143473721
It wasn't CG, just a lot of shading.
>>143473544
My question is, will there be any point in the future where increasing the framerate to a non eye cancer inducing levels end up being cheaper than traditional animation?
I'm completely fine with 3dcg, it just that every time it's put into practice in an anime production, it looks like choppy shit. Expelled from Paradaise, while still a bit choppy, is the absolute minimum they should be aiming for. If I want to nitpick, I'll also add that anime hair doesn't work with 3dcg at all, but that's another issue.
I was very impressed by Bubuki Buranki. There were still some obvious problems with rolling stills and the like, but it was still pretty good and miles better than some of the older stuff Japan has shat out.
>>143473967
I would much rather watch high framerate cg than choppy handdrawn wannabe cg. While uncanny to some extent it still looks pretty decent, unless you go the berserk route
>>143473496
This, it's still a long way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhGjCzxJV3E
>>143472896
All the flashy colors and lights to try to make up for the creepy dead eyes stare she has going on. It's not working.
Hand-drawing only the face could have been interesting.
>>143474101
Her expression never changes the entire song. Eyebrows never move, seldom blinking, it's just bad animation that's all
>>143474099
Looks like a lot of work to set it up, but the guy said himself that while initially it took them 2 months per character, but as they got used to it it shortened. Once more tools get developed to support it it shouldn't be that bad.
>>143472896
I never really liked vocaloid.
>>143472896
It'll still be too expensive or cumbersome.
Even now, companies that can afford to do higher quality CG and mocapping on a regular basis would rather market the CG itself than make it look 2d and using it as a replacement for traditional animation.
Maybe in 10 - 20 years, all anime will just be mocapped cg dramas.
>>143472896
I set the speed to 1.25 and it looks a bit better, but her arms are still stiff as dicks
>>143476398
>Maybe in 10 - 20 years, all anime will just be mocapped cg dramas.
This is just like my korean dramas!
>>143472896
Is this supposed to be impressive?
it isn't then when you have those:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGl_2gYrfM0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYNCCu0y-Is
>>143477137
It's supposed to look like anime.
>>143477253
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGl_2gYrfM0
this is a trailer for an animated CG movie coming out this summer.
>>143477291
Yeah, and it's trying to look realistically rather than imitate 2D, I don't know why you bring it up.
>>143477356
Why are they trying to imitate 2D with 3D? it's retarded and it doesn't work well.
>>143477418
Guilty Gear looks pretty good
>>143477441
It also has fixed camera angles
It's been going through an awkward transitioning period for the past few years that will end soon.Within a decade most anime will probably be 3D,and I wouldn't be surprised if we see a rise of 3D manga too.
>>143476398
>10 - 20 years, all anime is just mocapped cg dramas
>30 - 40 years, all anime is just live-action with special effects
>50 - 60 years, anime no longer exists as a concept
>>143479297
>Anime becomes live action
Anime becoming cheap vidya is more likely.
>>143479003
>3D manga
? you mean digital?
>>143473121
Yeah. They did a mighty fine job.
It of course helps that they don't have to mix 2D handdrawn sequences together with 3DCG animation.
>>143472896
the same, and sometimes a lot worse since the skills of humans are always going to be all over the place compared to the upper limit one or two guys manage to achieve
>>143479958
>>143473121
They also aren't trying to fake hand drawn animation with cel-shading shit. Like Miss Monochrome's ED.
>>143472992
>>143472896
It's more than just the framerate, it's that there is no squash and stretch. You need things to go off-model between keyframes constantly in order to make it look good.
>>143472896
not that impressive
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kElB-R7QiP8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYhSIOnhh94
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsdBRHLagN0shizuku a CUTE
I saw this yesterday.
http://youtu.be/y8I0h9896hY
http://youtu.be/scfI1xWW4TA
Maybe they're having an upgrade because of Rakuen Tsuihou's success, and it's a TV anime.
The CG director past work is Expelled from Paradise, the first project until now that successfully integrate 2D anime sakuga in 3DCG, I heard he have an experience in both traditional animation and CG.
Toei banking top-tier 2.5D.
>>143476398
Now that's what I'm fucking talking about!
Is the sauce Aikatsu or something?
>>143484376
Pripara
I think its from the movie
Check out /ai/ for more info
>>143472896
She was so stiff all the time. I don't know how people can say that's good. Fucking youtube comments.
>>143477137
>>143477137
Integrating traditional hand-drawn animation and 3DCG is more difficult than making a multimillion dollar photorealistic CGI, and it is impossible for now, look at Disney's 2.5D Paperman, that's the best thing they can do for now.
I'm actualy pretty excited for this movie. Shows like Pripara/Aikatsu/Precure have completly desensitized me to CG.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI4B36FIQzM
>>143472896
The vocalshit is more jarring than the animation.
>>143484529
it's why they continue to push it all the time, because no one's saying no, and director's think they're impressing everyone
>>143483704
That looks nice.
But I only watched EfP because of butcher. This one has unknown scriptwriter and meh director.
>>143484743
This is better than those three shows, maybe because it's a high budget movie.
>>143484966
Why you no like Seiji Mizushima, you didn't like Gundam00 and FMA? Concrete Revolution is questionable, nips think he's a good director they even insert him in Shirobako the fat one.
>>143472896
>What will anime look like in 5-10 years?
It will still be 2d. 3d won't replace 2d as it clashes with it and pretty much always looks ugly and is obvious its cg. CG just doesn't fit the 2d anime style. The tech devolving has nothing to do with that as that is purely a creative aspect. It comes down to pure raw talent of the person doing the models and the animation of them. Cg will never replace 2d as it isn't fucking 2d or look anything like that. It cost lots of money and talent to make it look so and even then its glaring.
CG should be either made to look as cg not anime or should be used as such to help enhance 2d, not replace it.
>>143478725
Nope everything you see is intentional with the models. From the shadows to the line everything about the model was made to look the way it is to remove the computer generated bits.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yhGjCzxJV3E
>>143477137
Prerendered movies already looked like that ten years ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvXF3oGy-iE
>>143473544
>It's just really expensive, double the framerate double the effort
You have no idea what you are talking about right? When you animate something in 3D, you work with your 3D object and a timeline, you just place which point of X Y Z your object will be, and set in which point of the timeline will be. NOW comes the rendering, which gives you the rendering options and resolution, there's literally no effort in typing 60 fps instead of 12 in the fps option box. Nips do the whole 2d framarate shit because:
1.- They rike it. Its Japan, we know they have shit taste.
2.-Takes a shitload less time of rendering.
>>143487950
>every frame is a keyframe
>400-600 bones per model
>have to distort the model every frame to mimic imperfections
>it only works for fixed camera angles due to exaggerating perspective
>requires a bunch of technical artists
Yeah. Good luck making that come in under budget for TV anime.
>>143488810
Try watching the video that >>143487950 posted. They directly say that the secret to making it look good was not using interpolation.
>>143474067
Is the team for Bubuki Buranki the same one behind the Ultra Super Anime Time bumpers? They feel really familliar.
>>143488990
I already know that video, and Im not talking about interpolation, if you are a tiny bit into 3D animation you would realize how impossible is for a TV anime to achieve this. I will skip the long ass explanation, this guy >>143488895 got it quite spot on. Talking from experience, you have no idea the difficulty of working with a normal human doll with just like 20 bones and animate it to make it look alright.
>>143472896
We had the technology to do something like this for a long time, the problem is it doesn't fit the budget and time of your average anime.
>>143488895
I don't remember anything about fixed angles. Maybe on exaggerations but not the base model, which is different.
>>143489130
They use 3D models and can pan the camera around, but if they decide that they want a different angle, then they have to re-animate the entire scene because each frame of animation distorts the model to complement the current perspective. If you look a finished scene from an unintended angle, it would look something like >>143473251
>>143472992
Isn't the reason behind this that they use both hand drawn and CG and they need the low framerates for it too look even?
>>143489319
>create a tentative, non-final scene
>realize you don't like it
>re-do it until you do
How is that any different from a traditional 2D medium, out of curiosity?
>>143489319
What did you watch the video? That doesn't happen with their base model. There's a scene where they even rotate the model 360 and the model looks fine all through out. The point if their methodology is that their models look good on all angles because everything is the way the modeller intended it to from the shadows to the line art. Now exaggerations are a different matter the basically copy the base model and add whatever it is they needed like a bigger arm or some smears.
>>143489460
Highly difficult, since moving their characters is hell. I will try to be specific.
When you have a 3D human doll, to move it, you have to put bones inside the mesh, meaning, the doll. For it to look alright, as I said before, 20 bones is fine, lacks, but it does the trick. Each movement your body does, needs a bone, sometimes more. This bone, you need to manually give it movement restrictions, humanlike restrictions, as example, your head needs to stop moving at 80° to your left/right, without that you are basically cosplaying The Exorcist kid. Skipping a lot of shit, lets move to the animation, lets say your character wants to move his head to a side, you insert whats called a keyframe, a starting point to the animation, lasting whatever time your movement will last, and then another keyframe to the last point of said animation. Now, whatever 3D tool you are working with, will automatically move your head from point A to B, this is what gives it the obvious 3D-look. GuiltyGear guys actually made said A to B movement frame by frame manually, for each of the 600 bones percharacter. To do an entire scene to later say "nah, this wont do" would be weeks of work go to waste.
>>143472896
That's not even particularly good CG. Not sure why it warrants a thread.
>posting stiff idol shit in a post GIRL climate
The gap's not closing yet, mates
>>143472896
Stiff.
>>143490038
I understand how the 3D bits work, I get paid to dabble in 3D model design and animation on the side.
What I'm asking is how is that different from drawing and animating a 2D scene to a similar level of completion, then throwing it away and restarting?
The methods, tools, and techniques are different, but isn't that the same scenario?
I'm pretty unfamiliar with the 2D anime animation techniques side of things, hence the question.
Take for example, something like a guy running down a hallway.
In the GG vid, they already have everything set up (shader, model, textures) so that you can freely view their character from any angle in an idle pose and it'll have a consistent level of quality. The last steps would be doing the basic rig manipulation to create the running animation, picking your camera angles, and as a final pass, tweak extra detail bones and deform the mesh to fit the camera angles you've chosen.
If they wanted to redo the scene from a different camera angle, you'd have to redo just that last bit, which, using GG's process, is obviously somewhat a pain in the ass, but you can use the same character model, the same hallway, the same running animation, etc.
For 2D, if you wanted to choose a different angle for the same scenario, wouldn't you basically have to toss everything you've done so far and start over?
>>143472896
The model looks great
The animation and everything is abysmal, they really need to ask the guys from Etotama for some pointers.
>>143490038
You know they could also use tweening instead of frame for frame for prototypes then go frame per frame when the scene is finalized. Again seems like you didn't even watch the video and making assumptions base on what's posted in this thread.
>>143490506
>For 2D, if you wanted to choose a different angle for the same scenario, wouldn't you basically have to toss everything you've done so far and start over?
That would be correct. But as far as I know it hardly reaches that point, due to the lack of time and the highly accelerated rate anime industry has. Once they start something they are forced to finish it because there's no time to do otherwise, hence the known QUALITY we usually end up seeing.
>>143476398
Idol anime will always look like this..;_;
>>143489374
Not really, simply for the fact that much dialogue or action heavy hand drawn animations still run at around 45 frames. This just feels like a lack of skill in the CG department if anything.
>>143490506
>wouldn't you basically have to toss everything you've done so far and start over?
And that's why directing matters. Scenes should be worked out before they're in production, you can do that with fucking pen and paper. Deciding shots with trial and error that requires setting up CGI mockups is horribly inefficient and suggests that the people in charge don't know what the fuck they are doing.
>>143472896
I don't think anything looks better than Me!Me!Me! Please, prove me wrong.
>>143479819
Pretty sure he means stuff like posing 3D models to replace drawing. Some mangaka (like the Gantz guy) already sort of does this in that they pose 3d models then trace over that.
I'm pretty sure it'll never ever replace hand drawn stuff though. One of the biggest benefits of manga as-is is that they're visually timeless, barring maybe popular artstyles of the time. You don't get the same kind of "man this art looks so old" problem with hand drawn manga as you do with early 3d or early digital art.
It's possible technology could completely simulate and streamline drawing into a digital process, but it's never going to progress to a point where 3d modelling completely replaces drawing.
>>143472896
Is this using that Live 2D tech firms were boasting about awhile back?
Black rock shooters anime did cgi perfectly with the hand drawn overlay.
Posting cute good cgi
https://youtu.be/cLJzSKwydX0
Purple white one is mine.
2D is never going to completely die because people genuinely enjoy drawing things by hand. Funding will be extremely hard to come by though unless some kinda post-scarcity commie utopia happens, which is highly unlikely.
>>143473721
Only aragamis were cgi
>>143485669
More like his brother based Kantoku on him
>>143491904
This is the best looking dancing CG anime I've ever seen.
Ok, the blue one is mine.
>>143493315
They're not related.
