![[HorribleSubs] Ashita no Joe 2 - 01 [1080p].mkv_snapshot_04.35_[2016.06.13_06.27.41].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/VBAOUQ0.jpg "[HorribleSubs] Ashita no Joe 2 - 01 [1080p].mkv_snapshot_04.35_[2016.06.13_06.27.41].jpg")
How do you feel about the art & animation style differences between the 70s and 80s Ashita no Joe shows? I switched from one to the other and I don't know if I can really say if one is "better" or "worse".
Also discuss old anime & manga. What have you been watching and what are your all-time favorites?I should not have expected the last thread to live as a show-specific one especially if it's a show that most people only read the manga for
![[Saizen-HnG]_Ashita_no_Joe_-_50_[DVD][5E672960].mkv_snapshot_22.01_[2016.06.13_06.30.44].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/2mVZmFS.jpg "[Saizen-HnG]_Ashita_no_Joe_-_50_[DVD][5E672960].mkv_snapshot_22.01_[2016.06.13_06.30.44].jpg")
70s:
-has a dirtier look with muddy colors that feels really fitting for the subject matter
-lines are much thicker
-cartoonier proportions, bigger eyes
-less motion, more rushed QUALITY frames
80s:
-obviously had far more time and money put into it, less shitty-looking frames, generally more solid, more movement
-the proportions are more realistic including the eyes being smaller (the latter is a bad change)
-more colorful
-thinner lines, feels more scratchy than sketchy
>>142801971
It also feels like Dezaki experimented more at age 27 while the 80s one is more "ok, this is my style and these are its limitations" at least from what I've seen
The show being so rushed & low budget definitely holds it back most of the time but there are some really neat bits
>>142802372
but the 80s one definitely benefits from being less of a wonky slideshow
>>142802614
Also I'm sure people will disagree but the manga does not look better. 70s Tetsuya Chiba is the second blandest out of the super-popular old-school manga artists from what I've seen and he wasn't very technically skilled either.
I really like the music for ashita no joe 2 the movie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxZA19HKK_E
![[HorribleSubs] Ashita no Joe 2 - 47 [1080p].mkv_snapshot_21.14_[2016.06.13_07.03.39].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/4aLdIJB.jpg "[HorribleSubs] Ashita no Joe 2 - 47 [1080p].mkv_snapshot_21.14_[2016.06.13_07.03.39].jpg")
>>142802826
I previewed the final episode and man, the TV version's final song is not nearly as awesome as the movie one.
It's also executed worse with the utterly pointless and redundant "I BURNED MY ASH" monologue. I dunno what Dezaki was thinking when the movie version was so perfect.
>>142802899
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExHozD7lpDA
I generally stay far away from movies that just summarize TV shonens but the movie version seems to have by far the best version of the ending.
>>142802735
I disagree. the style may seem odd but I find it charming and most of the time really cool
![[fong] Golgo13：The Professional [R2JDVDrip.10bit.ENsubs].mkv_snapshot_00.28.32_[2016.06.13_07.13.22].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/23f94Ci.jpg "[fong] Golgo13：The Professional [R2JDVDrip.10bit.ENsubs].mkv_snapshot_00.28.32_[2016.06.13_07.13.22].jpg")
I've also had the first Golgo movie downloaded for months but I've yet to watch it. I'm afraid I'll end up loving it and argue with everyone who says it's a piece of shit that you only watch to laugh at how awful it is.
I mean, the only genuinely horrible part that can't be explained away as "it's a cartoon, don't take it seriously" seems to be the 3DCG. The story seems like it dodges the biggest problem with the series i.e. the emotionless protagonist not having to put any effort into winning and thus everything being completely predictable.
>>142803031
"Odd" is not what I'd say to describe my issue with it at all. The early Cyborg 009 manga chapters are really weird-looking but in a really cool way, for example.
Chiba could draw a cool page occasionally that he put more detail and anatomy into, like here >>142803067
>>142803067 but even then I prefer the Dezaki versions of those shots since they have both good art AND expressive color use. But generally I feel that it's neither technically impressive nor expressive enough to be preferable over the anime.
I'll give Chiba some credit though, his people are not as boring as Mitsuteru Yokoyama's. I've skimmed through multiple manga by the guy and while he designed some cool robots, the humans are as basic as it gets and the anime character designers are why the Giant Robo OVAs are so charming to look at. I even figured "maybe he was forced to draw in a bad Tezuka-ripoff style in the 60s and 70s" so I looked through his later manga and it was somehow worse-looking with everyone having Ctrl Alt Del-tier expressions.
>>142803453
I was super disappointed by how boring Yokoyama's manga looks since he's the guy who designed Black Ox, one of my favorite robot designs of all time. Obviously a huge influence on the Getter too.
>>142803525
Just googling "Tetsujin 28 manga" brings up some great mecha
>>142803597
>>142803626
but then his humans are pure old manga autopilot
>>142803752
and he only got worse over time
Have you read or watched Rose of Versailles OP?
>>142803250
The Professional? I didn't think it was that disliked. It's at the very least awfully pretty. I dunno if it's something I'd ever revisit but I enjoyed watching it.
>>142803915
I watched a small chunk of the anime but I never got to the Dezaki episodes. The early episodes were fun but I felt that too much of it was unintentional comedy, and this is coming from someone who's able to take all of Joe's supposedly "badly aged" drama dead seriously.
I've been told by a friend whose opinions I tend to agree with that the show gets better and more genuinely good once Dezaki takes over.
>>142803779
Oh god the sameface, it's painful.
![[fong] Golgo13：The Professional [R2JDVDrip.10bit.ENsubs].mkv_snapshot_00.50.43_[2016.06.13_07.48.54].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/646qbtp.jpg "[fong] Golgo13：The Professional [R2JDVDrip.10bit.ENsubs].mkv_snapshot_00.50.43_[2016.06.13_07.48.54].jpg")
>>142804061
I may have just been unlucky, but I made a thread once some years ago and all the responses were extremely negative along with the general consensus on Golgo being that everything to do with it is horrible around 9 years ago. I've seen some people praise it in more recent old anime threads and no one responded saying "shitsux" so I guess it's a matter of the time of day and who's online.
I think the problem with the older threads may have been that the only people familiar with it got introduced to it through dumb shit like The Anime Encyclopedia while more recent viewers judged it without any preconceptions. I've also seen old anime that used to be considered perfect and sacred in say 2007 get criticized more, like Gunbuster.
Also
>that Kanada-as-fuck fire
>>142802735
The characters look more cartoony in the manga but they're unique/distinguishable designs. More importantly, Chiba drew action sequences well.
>>142803626
Is that Pluto?
>>142804064
Yeah I recommend you stick with it, it's easily one of my favorite series
![[fong] Golgo13：The Professional [R2JDVDrip.10bit.ENsubs].mkv_snapshot_00.50.49_[2016.06.13_07.51.54].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/39akKEv.jpg "[fong] Golgo13：The Professional [R2JDVDrip.10bit.ENsubs].mkv_snapshot_00.50.49_[2016.06.13_07.51.54].jpg")
x>>142804217
>constantly forced to destroy his own kind, even when they bring up valid points about how shit they have it
>couldn't say goodbye to his dying mother because he got sold off into slavery
>saves a village in Vietnam during the waronly for it to be destroyed the next day
Existence is suffering for Astro Boy.
>>142804312
What's the most agreed upon way to get into this? Should I just read the manga, or should I watch one of the animated series?
>>142804249
I generally love cartoony old manga; I just feel that Joe's art is boring compared to the anime. I guess the best way to word it would be that people like Tezuka and Ishinomori seemed like they understood their western comic & cartoon influences really well, while Chiba was probably just doing it because it was a kind of default for 60s and 70s shonen manga. That one video where he talks about Rikishi's death also makes it sound like he wasn't all that passionate about what he was doing or took it all that seriously and was shocked when he saw that people were that emotionally invested.
I'll give him that he's much, much better than the Tiger Mask artist. I wish Hokuto no Gun were doing the anime instead of the manga.
>>142804217
Yeah, expectations play a big part I think, if you're going into it wanting something more than sex and violence then I can see how someone would be disappointed. It's an 80s action flick through and through. It definitely falls into a lot of the pitfalls you mentioned earlier, namely Golgo being utterly boring and the plot being predictable (corny twist at the end too). It's got a great aesthetic though and the fight scenes own, so I'd call it a good movie nonetheless. It's my only exposure to the series though, only watched it cause the director.
>>142804443
Sorry, I just realized how dumb that question probably is considering the new show probably didn't talk about most of the stuff you mentioned. What I should ask is if the older animated series is worth a watch?
>>142804443
From someone who's not actually "into" the series, probably read it, watch parts of the old one for historical purposes, and then watch 2003 for actual enjoyment. That's what I'd do, at least if I gave a fuck about Astro Boy.
>>142804312
>>142804443
The 60s show has some "money shot" animation moments but is mostly pretty ugly to me.
The 80s one is bland as fuck and outright horrible at times judging by its adaptation of the Greatest Robot arc.
The manga aged very well in every way except for redundant dialogue, which was generally a problem with 60s Tezuka. The art is kinda inconsistent and depends on how busy Tezuka was at the time but when it's good it's REALLY good.
The 2003 show is totally different; it's a modern reinterpretation with modern anime cliches like "find someone to protect". It focuses far more on evolution as a theme and Tenma is more of a mysterious mastermind than a deeply flawed guy who tends to go nuts but is also capable of doing good. It's still good though and the production values are amazing.
I say read the manga and watch the 2003 show. Avoid the dub like the fucking plague.
>>142804583
Alright, I'll read this some time soon. I've never read one of Tezuka's works despite seeing a lot of stuff inspired by his stuff, so I guess I'll make this my first one. Also, I didn't even know there was an 80's animated series for it.
>>142804583
Urusawa is probably right that Tezuka made his best drawings in the 60s
>>142804312
its been ages since i watched astro boy but I'll never forget the episode about the train where the father gave his engine and astroboy saving his daughter. made me cry at the end when the little girl was looking for her father ;_;
>>142803779
what emotion are they supposed to be showing
>>142804670
It definitely felt like he had the most fun drawing stuff back then.
>>142804647
If you're not particularly impressed by Astro Boy I recommend checking out Phoenix volume 2 for possibly the best example of why Tezuka was a fantastic creator that I've personally read. It's an insanely well done story with good art that is arguably better at being 2001: A Space Odyssey than 2001: A Space Odyssey (and I'm saying this as someone who loved that movie).
For example, instead of just "what if a computer programmed to be perfectly logical did evil, unforgiving things for the sake of doing a perfect job?" it's "what if every culture built a computer to be ruled by and programmed it to be perfectly logical, yet all of them ended up being humanely flawed because they were created by humans to begin with and were thus based on human prejudices? And what if this was used as an allegory for religious dogma?"
>>142804823
It also deals with escapism as a theme in a way that is really ingenious.
>>142804879
>>142804902
>>142804927
>>142804962
And unlike Phoenix V1, the comedy is actually fitting and in-context instead of feeling like an insecure irony shield in case the drama fails. Less "haha it's ok guys, this is just a shonen manga, it's not that serious!" and more "the world is really ridiculous".
Phoenix V1 is also really good though, just more flawed. I've not read the rest yet.
>>142805010
Also, Black Jack is probably the most popular Tezuka manga on /a/ so check that out too.
I think it's kinda hit-and-miss, but still worthwhile. A lot of the stories kinda just blend together as merely ok but at its best it's REALLY good.
The Dezaki OVA series does its own, more serious atmosphere that works; the 2000s TV series is just the manga but sedated to be more kid-friendly but with inexpressive talking-heads art and cheap animation.
>>142805218
Comparing Pinoko's origin story in the manga to the 2000s anime in particular is pretty fucking dreary.
>>142805272
>>142804810
I definitely need to watch this since I tend to enjoy old OVAs that people say are too shallow or whatever.
>>142801892
The first Ashita series sucked balls though. The second one was great, Dezaki found a way.
Black Jack is pretty cool.
>>142806029
It's great, but I'm not surprised that you can't appreciate it since its qualities aren't instantly noticeable while the second series is far more instantly appealing to typical anime fans.
Scenes like the first Joe vs Rikishi cross-counter are fantastic.
I've always liked how Leiji characters were drawn. Maetel and 999 particularly.
diebuster, have you seen ringing bell? what do you think about it
>>142806407
Nope, but is it as similar to Legend of Sirius as it looks? I found that one too boring to even finish watching.
Then again it's been a very long time since I gave it a try; maybe I just had unreasonaly high standards.
>>142806995
iirc ringing bell is a bit more flamboyant but yeah the sanrio stuff has that Disney lite look to it. there's some interesting shots like dezaki triple exposure, silhouettes, etc in ringing bell and the story is more fable-like and concrete with a theme so it's probably better than sirius at everything.
>>142807172
I'll give it a shot sometime probably.
And yeah the "Disney lite" thing is what I didn't like about Sirius, though it seemed better at it than Toei's Puss in Boots which I only watched in its entirety for the history. Funny how Animal Treasure Island did like shit in terms of ticket sales when it did the 'fun silly adventure Toei film' thing so much better.
Speaking of old Toei movies I want to watch this but I can't find a download that wasn't taken down https://sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/23146/akira_daikubara-animals-animated-character_acting-
>>142804565
All the animated versions of Astro Boy are great, but each does its own thing. 60s is the most faithful, 80s changes things while trying to adapt certain stories, while the 03 series is entirely new. 80s is worth watching for Atlus, he is a glorious son of a bitch, while 03 is really well animated. Watching it recently for the first time, 03 has a nostalgic feel to it.
>>142804583
Do you know a way to watch the 2003 series in Japanese fully?
>>142807392
The Toei film that's pretty cool drawing-wise is Ali-baba. It's a cheap rushjob project-wise, the story barely holds together and it has audio issues but it's so nice to look at. backgrounds, colors, compositions. And it has an almost Mushi Pro-esque feel to some of the lineart, kinda rough unlike the typical Toei's perfect smooth lines.
>>142804465
I don't think you read NIPPLES.
http://hoxtranslations.blogspot.co.nz/2014/04/many-thoughts-on-good-manga-10.html
>>142807515
>>142807392
btw have you tried asking dragonhunteriv for a video source of that film?
>>142807515
>>142807537
I liked it much, much more than fucking Puss in Boots and I think Miyazaki was wrong about it. The style is really fun and obviously inspired by Chuck Jones' Dr. Seuss adaptations.
>>142807516
I can't tell how ironic Hox is being there, he sounds like a manga version of Otaking.
Fantasy World Jun and Swallowing the Earth both have some of Tezuka and Ishinomori's most fun art respectively and poop all over the Joe manga visually.
I know Tezuka disowned Swallowing the Earth but fuck what he thinks, it's his loosest work where he actually made his Milt Gross influence super-obvious (from what I've read) and I think that alone makes it worthwhile. I enjoyed the story far more than say Book of Human Insects too.
>>142807702
Nope but I searched /a/ and someone linked a DDL but Toei took it down.
I guess I should ask him.
>>142804217
I hate to be that "read the manga" guy, but Golgo actually has a personality in the manga. Unfortunately people only know him for his TV series that spawned his somewhat-deserved Gary Stu meme. It doesn't help that the TV show chose his most straightforward hits. He fucks up plenty of times in the manga.
To each his own.
>>142808113
Actually I don't know shit about Golgo and I was ignorantly regurgitating opinions I read from others hoping someone with more info would respond.
>>142807715
I'm being fairly serious there in that write-up concerning the evolution of Chiba's art. The nipples and nostrils, as trivial as it seems, is just one of those things that early-art Chiba and many of his contemporaries often disregarded, since they deliberately chose to go for a cartoonier look. The fact that he decided to draw them in, along giving muscles more "shape" through hatching and cross-hatching is a pretty big-point about Chiba's change in art style during Tomorrow Joe's serialization.
Sorry if I come across too pretentious there.
>>142808323
I'll be 100% honest dude, I've never read your essay-like posts before but based purely on talking to you on /a/ over the years you seemed much, much more knowledgeable. Those two paragraphs are some of the most ignorant stuff I've ever read on the subject of old manga and I'm honestly fucking dumbfounded by what I'm reading.
Equating artistic evolution with making things less cartoony or more realistic is freaking ANN-tier. Fantasy World Jun and Swallowing the Earth poop all over Joe in terms of sheer technical skill and using "muh hatching" as a way of rating Joe's art above Fantasy World Jun is ridiculous given that hatching is one of the things Ishinomori always did infinitely better than Chiba. This is how Ishinomori drew when he was just SEVENTEEN YEARS OLD. He also drew far better hatching than that hideous Joe page you posted during the same period when he worked as an assistant on Astro Boy. He actually knew how to draw extremely solidly while Joe was almost always flat and amateurish.
I suspect you were negatively influenced by Frederik L. Schodt's completely retarded introduction to Swallowing the Earth. The guy is an oblivious moron who has no knowledge of even basic American history let alone the history of manga. Swallowing the Earth is MORE cartoony than most of Tezuka's work and intentionally so. In a panel there's a crate that literally says "Milt Gross" on it.
>>142808323
I thought you got your point across fairly well. When you start reading it, it seems ridiculous, until you keep reading. The kinds of things we simply take for granted is overwhelming, and the fact that you chose to focus on these little things is really fascinating.
>>142804064
I'm surprised you never finished watching it. You really should.
>>142803779
>>142803752
That's just a side-effect of Yokoyama stepping away from his early art which was heavily Tezuka-esque, considering he even worked as Tezuka's assistant. But still, I agree with you. Yokoyama is definitely NOT a mangaka you should read if you like cartoony, expressive art. In a way, that's actually what makes him so fascinating to me. In the late 60s to 80s, you had all these new mangaka trying new things. Some sticking with a very expressive but rooted in a cartoonified look, while others went expressive but in a very realistic style. For a lot of readers, just looking at Yokoyama's art looked terribly dated even in the late 70s. And because of this many people in and outside of the industry just wrote him off, thinking he'd just fade away into history. The fact that he didn't and his stuff continued to sell all the way into the 80s and early 90s (and still gets regular reprint editions today) is astounding. A lot of that has to do with the narrative style and the fact that he draws stuff that no one else does. But if you're not a fan of history, it might as well all be boring shit.
>>142808488
>implying General Caster's Last Place isn't an iconic feature of American history
>>142808488
>Those two paragraphs
Wait sorry, I never copypasted them in this thread (I did to a friend on Skype)
I mean these two:
>"While these 3 images are from Tezuka's Swallowing the Earth [...]"
and
>"But then towards the end of volume 1, you notice [...]"
I'm not gonna read the entire post but my eyes glazed over to those particular parts and they are complete and utter nonsense.
>>142808488
I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding you have with my point. It almost seems as if you think evolution has a positive connotation, so that when I claim that Chiba changed towards realism, I imply that he became a better artist.
If this is what you're complaining about, that is NOT what I meant. I'm simply saying that Chiba's art DID become more realistic over time, and that was likely motivated by not insignificant reasons. There's really no objective way to argue against this, considering the changes in art between volume 1 and volume 20 are striking.
Moreover, I NEVER said nor claimed that Chiba is a better artist than Tezuka and Ishinomori. It honestly seems like you're not quite understanding what I wrote. I've also never read Schodt's introduction, since I read Swallowing the Earth in Japanese.
>>142808488
For the record this is what Milt Gross drew like. One of the biggest influences on Swallowing the Earth.
>>142808589
You made the "refusal to make things more realistic" thing sound like a criticism of Tezuka and Ishinomori, which is ridiculous ESPECIALLY for Ishinomori who could draw very realistically since forever. It overall reads like you see cartoony as 'lesser' or at least did when you read that.
Tezuka is kind of a different case since, even though he still had technical skill and life drawing experience, I feel that his attempt at more realistic art (MW) was really ugly and I think he realized that too because his 80s works like Adolf and Ludwig B got back to being much, much cartoonier.
But Ishinomori? The man never had this problem. In fact Fantasy World Jun in particular shows really well how he could switch back and forth between more realistic art and super-cartoony art.
Same goes for Sabu & Ichi which came a bit later. Compare this page...
>>142808713
...to this page. It has nothing to do with "evolution" but with tone; one fight scene is meant to be grittier and more down-to-earth while the other is meant to be over-the-top.
>>142808741
Or compare Henshin Ninja Arashi...
>>142808760
...to Banchou Wakusei. Both from around the same era of Ishinomori's career. Both well-drawn in their respective style. And both shonen so it's not like it's a matter of "maturity" but once again tone.
>>142806029
>>142806277
Okay I found my 2012-13 screencaps folder. Scenes like this are why the 70s Joe anime is good.
>>142808713
No offense, but I think you're still misunderstanding my whole point in that writing, because I agree with your point about the technical skill of Ishinomori and Tezuka.
Let me summarize my whole nostrils and nipples argument. Nostrils and nipples are basically dots. They're so simple to draw even a 5 year old could do it. But many mangaka in the 50s and early 60s simply didn't draw them. It's ridiculous to think that those talented artists weren't drawing nostrils and nipples because they couldn't. It was a deliberate choice. And if was a deliberate choice, why did they make that choice?
>>142808851
Or watch this clip https://sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/9090/animated-artist_unknown-ashita_no_joe-fighting-sme
There is a lot of subtle shit going on in there with the backgrounds and expressions.
>>142808856
>It was a deliberate choice. And if was a deliberate choice, why did they make that choice?
I think it's lame to assume they did it because they thought people "weren't ready" or whatever.
Maybe it was bad wording but it definitely read like you were looking down on cartoony stuff. Which is weird because like... Mind Game is one of the most experimental and creative anime things ever and it's as cartoony as fucking Ren & Stimpy.
>>142809091
I don't think it's lame at all to wonder whether the authors themselves might not have felt hesitant towards the change. To us, it feels like an insignificant step, but when you live in an era that pretty much always did things a certain way, even the tiniest deviation from it can feel off. Paradigm shifts don't come easily for a reason.
Also, Mind Game is still my favourite Yuasa work and I quite enjoy cartoony stuff. I mean, who can hate stuff like the classic Disney cartoons?
>>142809091
>Maybe it was bad wording
Nah, it's just you. The blog post has been discussed on /a/ before and you're pretty much the only one interpreting it that way.
>>142809218
I disagree a bunch because I think
1. It's really really obvious Tezuka drew cartoony stuff because he loved it and
2. Ishinomori experimented with styles all the time. I think it's because he just had a wider pool of influences than Tezuka, but you can often find style swaps even in the middle of the same series
>>142809379
Desustorage doesn't have anything archived, but /a/ is full of people who see cartoony art as inherently worse or requiring less skill so maybe they read it the same way and just agreed.
>>142801892
Anime is better now.
Better and more sophisticated. On point too. You Luddites should realize that better tech means better animation.
For example, we hardly have loose cells or out of place layers. A lot of layers could be put on top of each other. Lighting has also improved. Lewd shiny thighs wouldn't have been possible in old cel animation. So are bloom effects (although some purists hate that)
I love these advancements. No more limited movement.
Lens flares galore, sure. Of course there are cons. Visually speaking, though? Enchanting is the first word that comes to mind.
We (that is, they) work faster as well. In truth, there's an influx of anime nowadays. Tons of series. Hentai too.
Amazing strides in technology shouldn't be ignored because of your nostalgia.
Greatness can be seen in the latest works out there. Intense visuals. Realistic backgrounds. Luscious movement.
>>142809436
It's not just /a/ though. This sentiment can be traced back to the origins of modern newspaper cartooning. Ask any academic 18th century painter if cartooning takes skill and they'll tell you that "cartoon" means preliminary sketch so of course it doesn't. This kind of confrontation has existed since the beginnings of modernist painting (not that I'm saying it's exactly what's being discussed here)
>>142809476
Not him, but do you agree with that sentiment?
Not trying to start a fight or anything, I'm just personally curious.
>>142809382
>>142809436
Also
>In fact, Tezuka's background is so detailed that his simplistic characters stand out in stark contrast. These characters were hardly different from their earlier, more mainstream counterparts. Indeed, a character from the earlier Magma Ambassador could inconspicuously sneak his way into Swallowing the Earth and vice-versa.
This doesn't strike me as very observant because my very first reaction to Swallowing the Earth's character art was that it was meant to be MORE cartoony than most of Tezuka's art. Astro Boy for example is much more conservative with more focus put on drawing things correctly than fucking around.
I'm not basing this on anything but suspicion but I kinda think Monkey Punch's success with the Lupin manga may have been why Tezuka went fucking nuts with Swallowing the Earth.
>>142809459
If this is actually your example to prove your point you are a retard.
All this animation shows is animators don't know how the fuck real people act.
>>142809476
I know it's a common thing, but I think it's particularly silly when it comes to people into animation because shit like Looney Tunes is some of the most technically skillful animation of all time and it's extremely cartoony.
With people who are only into American cape comics for example it makes perfect sense.
>>142809505
I love cartooning but I can understand the opposite viewpoint even if it seems outdated. The recent history of painting is funny; photography and modernist styles like Impressionism created a context of disenchantment with the orthodox naturalism, and thus all sorts of self-expressive styles emerged, including the meteoric rise of modern cartooning including animation (cartoonists like McCay were the only ones really making any sort of leaps forward wrt conceptualizing movement, and therefore animation as we know it was born out of cartooning). Fast-forward to the late 70s, and suddenly people started becoming interested in realism again, often coupled with claims that the kind of art being made was alienating and escapist.
I don't think anybody on either extreme is really correct but I can see valid arguments on both sides. Personally I don't lean one way or another and generally like everything as long as it's well done and substantiated. But in general, I think modern cartooning is kind of like the Blues of visual arts. And I like Blues.
>>142803915
What is considered better, the show or the manga?
>>142809459
Honestly, unless the context somehow changes everything I have to agree with >>142809545; I have no fucking idea what that girl is even supposed to be feeling or what emotions she's going through.
THAT SAID. I actually agree with you that digital animation means you can animate more stuff cheaper... but that doesn't necessarily mean better work and things like talent and budget and deadlines contribute hugely. For example, the 80s Space Adventure Cobra TV anime has much, much more and better animation than the extremely half-assed OVAs.
>>142809510
I mainly chose Swallowing the Earth because the date fit better with my argument, but my main point wasn't that Tezuka didn't vary his character art throughout the long course of his career. It was the fact that he didn't take any big steps between the cartoony/realist-spectrum, even though he quite clearly leaned more and more heavily towards the realist side with respect to his backgrounds and objects for much of his "gekiga" manga. So my question in that argument is if Tezuka was willing to change how he drew backgrounds so much, why did he refrain from doing so with his characters?
>>142809624
>>142809545
That post is a meme pasta. Read the initial letter of each sentence.
>>142809580
That's a very interesting opinion, especially because it's backed by facts, something rare here on 4chan.
Though what do you mean by "modern" cartooning? Because if you mean from the 40's up I have to agree with you, people like Jones, Freleng, Avery and all the other Looney Tunes cartoonists are nothing short of visionaries in their field. If you meant modern more as contemporary I don't know, even contemporary japanese animators like Yuasa or Imaishi still use most of the technical repertoire introduced by the classic Looney Tunes animators when it comes to cartoony style animation, see Dead Leaves for that, it's not like it's bad mind you, I just think that since the 90's the cartoony animation has come almost to a standstill stylistically speaking.
>>142809580
I've used terms like "more realistic" ITT to refer to the more detailed and down-to-earth scenes in Ishinomori manga like Sabu & Ichi contrasted to the cartoony moments, but I think few manga authors actually come close to being "realistic". Something like Lone Wolf and Cub seems realistic compared to the cartooniness of Astro Boy or Devilman or other popular manga of the time but it's actually very stylized and its action scenes exaggerate and break the fuck out of the poses on purpose.
And while on the subject of Kazuo Koike-written stuff there are artists that try to be realistic and just end up drawing totally boring inexpressive shit like Crying Freeman. The faces in this manga are some of the most unintentionally funny things I've ever seen.
Meanwhile something like Koike's Mad Bull 34 gets infinitely less praise because people like to be smug about anything campy and silly and call it horrible even when it's intentionally campy... but I think it's far, far more well drawn than Crying Freeman because it's silly exaggerated art for a silly exaggerated manga.
>>142809712
Holy shit that's really clever.
>>142809760
Hiroaki Samura still draws very anime-esque faces but I feel some of his art gets closer than most to being "realistic"
>>142809754
Nah, by modern I was more talking about late 19th century and on, when newspaper satires and strips started becoming commonplace and mass consumed. "Cartooning" has existed since the 1100s, but in very different contexts than what we think of when we hear the term now.
If you are like me and think animation is the logical evolution of cartooning, the WB dudes were the zenith of the golden age. Mind, I don't think here that all animation has to be cartoonish or that it's the only style that really "fits" (like John K or smth would think), but I do think that cartooning is generally always heightened by animation as produced by the USA in the 30s and 40s.
>>142802735
>second
Let me guess, is the first Yokoyama?
>>142802958
Is this from the movie or from the TV version?
>>142806277
>I am the only special snowflake here who can see the hided greatness of the first AnJ series, because I'm intellectual
>>142809754
Imaishi obviously isn't nearly as technically good as Looney Tunes animators but I think he's great because he's really good with sheer inventiveness. Of course the Looney Tunes guys were both inventive and hugely technically skilled but as you said those are unequaled geniuses.
To be fair I generally judge cartoony art based on expressions, poses, silhouettes etc. Looney Tunes and Tex Avery stuff is special because of its mix of inventive exaggeration AND technical skill, but then you have for example Tom & Jerry or old Disney shorts which are technically impressive but completely uninventive. Ignoring the underrated Chuck Jones stuff I think Imaishi is better at cartooning than the "beautiful, classic" Tom & Jerry or old Mickey Mouse shorts because his stuff, despite not being nearly as three-dimensionally drawn or technically well animated in terms of things like weight, because his drawings are inventive and fun and I think that's the best reason to draw cartoony stuff.
And yes I know Imaishi's influences and I still stand behind calling him creative and people who think he draws exactly like Kanada probably also think Ken Ishikawa drew exactly like Go Nagai in the 70s (both are wrong and dumb).
>>142809760
>Something like Lone Wolf and Cub seems realistic compared to the cartooniness of Astro Boy or Devilman or other popular manga of the time but it's actually very stylized and its action scenes exaggerate and break the fuck out of the poses on purpose.
Of course, I didn't mean to imply Japanese manga artists were trying to go back to Ingres or something. Japan never belonged to that tradition after all. But there was this emphasis on making certain things "more realistic" as a form of counterculture. It was the trend at the time. From the first gekiga attempts to Otomo and the like.
Painting is a dead medium nowadays but we are currently getting stuff like pic related (yes, it is actually oil on canvas) when something like this (stylistically) would have been unthinkable 50 years ago.
>>142809868
I never said I'm the only one who enjoys it. I also elaborated here:>>142808851
>>142808921
You need to view 70s AnJ in its historical context. Of course its expressionistic color use, for example, doesn't feel revolutionary if you compare it to Mind Game or Shinbo's SoulTaker or something but it was hugely creative in its time.
>>142809953
Damn I posted the pic I didn't want to post. I wanted to post this one which is more recent (the above one is from the 80s)
>>142809813
>If you are like me and think animation is the logical evolution of cartooning, the WB dudes were the zenith of the golden age
Well, I don't know if I am like you, but I certainly agree with what you say.
>>142809930
I personally don't like Imaishi that much, mostly because while he is a good animator he is a terrible director and has to be kept on a really tight leash to make a good work that isn't just technical wanking without rhyme or reason, and he still can't wank as hard as people like Jones wanked anyway.
>Ignoring the underrated Chuck Jones
Is he? I'm not american but I thought he was pretty much universally recognized, I mean even here in Italy Jones is considered a god if you want to study animation.
>>142809976
Says the guy who has to blame it on /a/ being causal >>142809436 rather than admit he was making up narratives that aren't there.
>>142810016
>as hard as people like Jones wanked
You mean Clampett right? Jones was a fluffy conservative in comparison. He proved this after he left WB.
>>142809868
>>142809976
Also I'm basing my claim that most people don't notice things like color use, editing or composition if the artwork is technically wonky on experience. I read tons of online opinions on and off 4chan and I don't think it's insane to assume most people would be instantly dismissive of 70s AnJ because of its rushed drawings & super-limited animation.
>>142810016
The reason for things like Dead Leaves and Panty & Stocking is just being fun to watch and "fun" is extremely subjective. I have tons of fun watching his ridiculous work but if you don't then of course it'll seem pointless.
Can we at least agree that RE: Cutie Honey episode 1 is good?
Also: I meant that Jones' Tom & Jerry shorts are underrated, not that Jones himself is underrated. They're generally not people's favorite shorts but they're arguably the best since they're not as artistically conservative and bland to me.
>>142810043
Clampett is fucking amazing.
Also I suspect anon was referring to his more talky work that feels like it's trying to be more "intellectual" than his earlier stuff. It was visually more conservative but he'd not be the first person to consider it wanky.
>>142810037
I'm basing that stuff on a decade of experience with 4chan. There are people here who think more about art but generally you'll find lots of opinions that show a total lack of observation.
>>142809459FINDS
>>142809459Threadly reminder that you should stop posting that because it's a thing.https://www.fictionpress.com/s/3206139/1/
>>142810139
Well, actually more than a decade but a decade of experience with 4chan >>>anime fans<<< in particular (I actually thought /b/ was good before that because I was young and dumb)
There are possibly more exceptions on 4chan than on every other anime community, but GENERAL opinions on art and animation are not very different from those of kids on Myanimelist or whatever. A lot of "detail = quality", anything that looks different melding together into the same style (the aforementioned idea that 70s Nagai and Ishikawa had the same art style), etc.
>>142810037
>>142810184
Oh and I don't think I'm making up any narrative when saying that the guy who dismissed the 70s AnJ anime as "the bad one" and saw the 80s one as "the good one" is missing the entire point of what made Osamu Dezaki so important to begin with. It's like calling 30s King Kong bad because it's not believable today or thinking that Osamu Tezuka was important because of manga like Adolf.
>>142810043
I haven't seen much from Clampett so I can't judge, I'm more familiar with Jones and Avery.
I'll look up the stuff he did after he left WB since you pointed that out, I'm pretty interested now.
>>142810112
>Can we at least agree that RE: Cutie Honey episode 1 is good?
Sure thing, but I still think Imaishi did his best on Abenobashi and the Lupin movies, that's honestly the best Imaishi for me, Dead Leaves, while having a really good art direction, was not as technically good as his earlier works, especially when it came to animation, Panty and Stocking suffered from the same problems, great style, but the animation simply can't keep up, too stilted and schizophrenic, for every great scene there's other 3 that are just boring moving mouths with stilted movements.
>Also: I meant that Jones' Tom & Jerry shorts are underrated
Ah, I see now, well I can't say I completely agree because there's not a whole load of great stuff compared to the crazy amount of good works for WB, but I see what you mean.
>Also I suspect anon was referring to his more talky work that feels like it's trying to be more "intellectual" than his earlier stuff.
Pretty much, yeah.
>>142810184
>but GENERAL opinions on art and animation are not very different from those of kids on Myanimelist or whatever.
Fact is they're those kids, most of the userbase of 4chan isn't any different from that of any other social media now, even if they like to say otherwise, not like it was much different back in 2006, but userbase was much smaller back then so people who actually knew what they were talking about weren't drowned in a sea of shitposters.
See what happened to JoJo threads, see what's happening to HxH threads, same with other boards, /vr/'s quality drastically decreased once people from other boards or places swarmed the place, same thing happened to all other boards, /a/ isn't an exception.
>>142809459
I don't give a flying shit about animation quality. The plots have no depth and are all just recombined tropes and parts created to sell merchandise to virgin losers like you. It used to be different and not as industrialized, which is echoed by many industry veterans. Anime is shit and getting shittier, and no fancy tech will save it from unimaginative and cowardly businessmen remote-controlling your penis and hormones.
>>142809459
>>142810307
>Fact is they're those kids, most of the userbase of 4chan isn't any different from that of any other social media now, even if they like to say otherwise, not like it was much different back in 2006, but userbase was much smaller back then so people who actually knew what they were talking about weren't drowned in a sea of shitposters.
I disagree hugely with this and I don't think 4chan was ever some bastion of anime knowledge. The initial userbase was SA ADTRW posters and people who came from various anime forums that the ADTRW guys shared the link on.
When I was like 12-13 I used to lurk and occasionally post on shoujoai.com which was an absolutely horrible forum full of complete retards. 4chan was linked there THE DAY IT CAME ONLINE.
I actually think 4chan has more knowledgeable people now than it did in 2006-07. A friend who posts here and who I think is really, really smart and insightful about manga (and single-handedly got me to start thinking about stuff like paneling) for example was pretty ignorant in 2006 and rolled with the exact sort of non-observant opinions I was talking about like "Nagai and Ishikawa drew the same" or "Ishinomori and Tezuka drew the same".
QUALITY threads were much worse in 2007 with far less people calling out bullshit.
I'll respond to the rest in a new post.
>>142809459
Is she having a seizure what the fuck is that animation lmao
>>142809459
>When you want to go but it's a gas station toilet
>>142810432
>>142810307
>Sure thing, but I still think Imaishi did his best on Abenobashi and the Lupin movies, that's honestly the best Imaishi for me, Dead Leaves, while having a really good art direction, was not as technically good as his earlier works, especially when it came to animation, Panty and Stocking suffered from the same problems, great style, but the animation simply can't keep up, too stilted and schizophrenic, for every great scene there's other 3 that are just boring moving mouths with stilted movements.
I actually agree that Dead Leaves could have far more technically good animation but I love it anyway. I actually disliked it at first for that very reason and I saw RE:CH as Imaishi's comedy magnum opus but it grew on me thanks to how it was directed.
I like Panty & Stocking more than Dead Leaves and I think the sense of composition and color use, especially the Yoshinari backgrounds, are more important to the visual experience than the animation. But I also think it was animated infinitely better than Kill la Kill.
>>142810492
>>142810307
Also: as much as I think anime fans need to stop equating art quality with animation quality, I don't consider it an absolute must. I think the horrible animation made Hellsing Ultimate unwatchable but I also found 70s Ashita no Joe amazing despite being mostly poorly animated because of Dezaki's super-fun direction in his 20s when his style was not well-defined so it was more of an 'everything goes' thing with all sorts of weird experimental stuff.
>>142809459
>>142809760
"It's on purpose," is not and never has been an automatic pass for basically anything.
>>142810432
>I don't think 4chan was ever some bastion of anime knowledge.
Neither do I, but I think that back then the general userbase was better in a way, or maybe it's just my impression, I don't really know anymore, I'm actually a bit depressed by what 4chan has become since a couple of years or so, so maybe I'm just being a bit too bitter on things.
>4chan was linked there THE DAY IT CAME ONLINE.
Oh well, that's something, I got in by word of mouth from my girlfriend back in 2005/2006, I never digged forums that much.
>but I love it anyway.
Ah don't get me wrong, I think Dead Leaves has some really, really good moments, like the sex scene in the beginning with all the convicts either watching or listening and this fucking guy cracks me up every time without fail but maybe I was just a bit too hyped for it and expected too much.
>I like Panty & Stocking more than Dead Leaves and I think the sense of composition and color use, especially the Yoshinari backgrounds, are more important to the visual experience than the animation.
I kind of agree with this, I think that P&S has more focus on the general art, especially the use of lines and as you say colours, rather than Dead Leaves, in a way, it's much more dynamic than Dead Leaves due to the artstyle alone, Kill la Kill...I'd rather not talk about it, it was a supreme disappointment for me.
>I think the horrible animation made Hellsing Ultimate unwatchable but I also found 70s Ashita no Joe amazing despite being mostly poorly animated
The problem with Hellsing's animation is that, besides being a literal slideshow, has very shallow choreography and composition, Kouta might make some good rapefaces and suggestive use of distorted anatomy, but it doesn't translate well into animation, same thing for Araki.
Ashita no Joe, while suffering from the same problems had a direction that is light years ahead of anything Hellsing Ultimate has to offer, same hing for stuff like Cobra.
>>142810754
Ah shit, I forgot image.SUGE SEX NANDAYO
>>142810754
See I actually disagree with the last part about Jojo; I think part 2 in particular was well directed and it's very possible to capture Araki-ness into TV animation. I feel that the adaptation lost that magic by the end of the Part 3 adaptation which just felt like the most generic and bland type of Shonen Jump fighting manga adaptation. People shit on the OVA version because it's so different but it's different in a good way. It's kinda like how Dezaki's Black Jack is much more serious than the manga and can feel kinda up its own ass, but it works because it's dedicated to what it is. While the 2000s show is just badly directed talking heads bullshit with really bad animation despite the designs being more "on-model" and manga-like. It doesn't matter if the models are cartoony when the direction is turbo-generic talky anime stuff. Hellsing Ultimate didn't even have any kind of directing style, it was just a panel-by-panel adaptation with horrible animation and mind boggling visual decisions like "2D Alucard shooting a 3D gun".
I've not watched the part 4 Jojo anime yet so I dunno what it's like but the art style's nice despite being different from the manga.
>Oh well, that's something, I got in by word of mouth from my girlfriend back in 2005/2006, I never digged forums that much.
Oh I didn't find 4chan through shoujoai, I just searched "4chan" on it much later to see when it was first linked.
>Ah don't get me wrong, I think Dead Leaves has some really, really good moments, like the sex scene in the beginning with all the convicts either watching or listening and this fucking guy cracks me up every time without fail but maybe I was just a bit too hyped for it and expected too much.
That's why I also disliked Dead Leaves at first. I saw some Youtube videos that only showed realy good stuff like the Yoshinari and Sushio scenes and I thought I found a new FLCL or something.
Now I like it much more but I think Panty & Stocking has more thoughtful art.
>>142810725
So you're saying something can't have a sense of sarcasm or irony and be good? Are things like parody and satire, or the common Japanese comedy tradition of presenting ridiculous things in a straight-faced way, intentionally bad?
Don't get me wrong, traditional Japanese comedy can be insufferable and horrible but in different ways. See for example joke-explaining and redundancy. But I think stuff considered "legendarily bad" like Apocalypse Zero is hilarious and people don't even realize it's a comedy because they're too busy being smug and condescending. The reason is that the ridiculousness is presented without any "straight man" character; it's just a world where everything is inherently ridiculous.
I've not seen/read Mad Bull 34 fully but it seems very similar judging by the scans & clips I've seen.
>>142810788
Are you the animator guy who wrote that one turbo-autistic in-depth post about the Sonic CD intro? Your opinions kinda remind me of him.
![Miss Machiko Episode 01 - Pranks. I Give Up!.mkv_snapshot_15.39_[2016.06.12_20.46.15].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/kin5VpG.jpg "Miss Machiko Episode 01 - Pranks. I Give Up!.mkv_snapshot_15.39_[2016.06.12_20.46.15].jpg")
>>142811001
>that one turbo-autistic in-depth post about the Sonic CD intro
Do you have a link to that? I need this to get rid of this morbid curiosity that you've awoken in me.
>>142811034
http://jonathantheharris.blogspot.ro/2011/06/sonic-cd-intro-movie.html
It's actually a really good post that can get you to think about what makes animation interesting but the fucking graph at the end still made me laugh.
I was asking because I know the guy who wrote this posted on /a/ about finding Panty & Stocking disappointing in a similar way back in 2010.
>>142810910
>I think part 2 in particular was well directed and it's very possible to capture Araki-ness into TV animation.
I disagree, though I agree that part 2 was the best adaptation overall, though I mostly blame David's animators for that, the animation was terribly lacking in all possible sense except a few episodes, though the same could be said from 90% of the shows today.
Aesthetic-wise, the OVA was much better, especially for episodes such as D'Arby the Gambler which also had a near perfect adaptation of Araki's style, then again, I understand why people are put off by Super Saiyan Dio and other filler stuff, it's understandable.
>Now I like it much more but I think Panty & Stocking has more thoughtful art.
It all comes down to personal tastes in the end, I like the two Midnight Eye Goku OVAs a lot and I think they're some of the best stuff Dezaki ever made, but I also admit that they're extremely formulaic compared to other stuff like Takarajima, thye just click with me more than most of his works.
>>142811001
>Are you the animator guy who wrote that one turbo-autistic in-depth post about the Sonic CD intro?
Nope, I must have missed that.
I did do the humorous explanation of Sonic in modern art with as if I was a postmodern critic.
>>142811082
Ah, thank you for the link. I'll have to read this after waking up because damn that looks like a really long page.
>>142811094
>Midnight Eye
Haven't seen, but I generally find that any old OVAs or movies considered "legendarily bad" by the ANN/Colony Drop/Anime Encyclopedia/Anime World Order/whatever clique are just silly fun in terms of story and often very well executed. The only one I actually ended up agreeing with them on was Itano's Battle Royal High School.
I also think Itano's Violence Jack OVAs are garbage but for totally different reasons than what those types claim; I think the manga is fantastic and the reason the OVAs suck is that Itano took nothing away from it beyond "edgy gore" but the people who generally hate the OVAs seem too prudish to appreciate the manga's qualities.
Only reason I've not watched Dezaki's Sword for Truth (or whatever its Japanese title is) yet is because it looks like the kind of dumb-as-shit but well-directed stuff I'd fall in love with and then completely fail to change anyone's mind about. Every single "EPIC FAIL WORST ANIME EVER" video I've seen of it was only bad in terms of dubbing and otherwise looked like a fucking blast.
People also say Dezaki's Hakugei is bad but from what I've seen the only bad episodes are some lame fillery comedy ones and whenever it focuses on the main story in a serious way it's good. There's also a fourth wall-breaking, super-cartoony comedy episode entirely key animated by one guy that kicks ass.
>>142811094
>Midnight Eye Goku OVAs
These are Kawajiri no?
I wonder if people mix them up because the source manga is by Buichi Terasawa.
>>142811343
Oh fuck they are and I should've been the one to point that out to him because I knew something sounded wrong when he attributed them to Dezaki.
>>142811233
>but I generally find that any old OVAs or movies considered "legendarily bad" by the ANN/Colony Drop/Anime Encyclopedia/Anime World Order/whatever clique are just silly fun in terms of story and often very well executed.
I agree, in most cases they're pretty good stuff technically speaking, most people are more interested in plot rather than technical aspects of the work, can't say I blame them.
There are some cases when it's difficult to disagree though, Big Wars was one of those, I still have to see something that stands on the plateau of mediocrity and wasted potential as much as that.
>>142811343
>These are Kawajiri no?
Didn't Dezaki help with the storyboards and keyframes while Kawajiri directed?
I'll need to check the credits again now.
>>142811435
But I'm not watching them for "technical aspects". If I were I'd think /ic/ is full of amazing artists because it's an endless pissing contest of making the most sterile "muh anatomy & perspective" technical showcase art. I think they're FUN for reasons beyond plot and it seems that people back in the day thought the exact same but these days the only remaining old-school fans have a stick up their ass over anime being "high art".
I blame them because "plot" is not the ultimate decider of whether something is good or not and too many people considered "anime experts" feel that it is. No one watches Jackie Chan films for the "plot" for example and they're considered good movies by knowledgeable film buffs. The silly old action OVAs are almost like the anime equivalents of Jackie Chan films but "anime critics" treat them like abominations.
>>142811561
>>142811435
Oh and another retarded thing a lot of those people do is judge things by the dub. When a normal anime fan sees a shit dub he/she thinks "hmm I wonder what the original is like" and check it out; hell, that's how One Piece became a popular fighting shonen in the west. But when a "knowledgeable elite 80s anime fan" sees a bad dub they go "haha le epic fail worst anime ever".
>>142811692
I really don't get why this is ok in general.
Dubs as a whole are this thing that should always be avoided, but apparently it's not true for older (and worse) ones. They hypocrisy is mind boggling.
>>142811561
>But I'm not watching them for "technical aspects".
My bad, I probably worded my thoughts in the wrong way.
I mean that the technical aspect includes a lot of things like direction, artstyle, animation, music, chromatic choices and so on, basically anything beyond the plot itself, that also includes decent writing in terms of dialogues.
>Oh and another retarded thing a lot of those people do is judge things by the dub.
God, I hate that too and I completely agree with>>142811768, especially in this time and age, back in the 80's and 90's it was pretty hard to find things without dub, but now why should I even bother or judge things by their DUB of all things.
>>142811768
I think those fans are just generally really, really self absorbed and convinced that because they've been fans for a long time their opinions are correct and they don't need to do any research. Which is why the most popular Youtube review of the Devilman OVAs doesn't even acknowledge there's a manga.
For the record I think only the very first Devilman OVA is overall good and even then it's far from a perfect adaptation, but that's not the point; it's not a legendarily bad abomination even if you acknowledge its flaws.
>>142811893
>I mean that the technical aspect includes a lot of things like direction, artstyle, animation, music, chromatic choices and so on, basically anything beyond the plot itself, that also includes decent writing in terms of dialogues.
Not a particularly old anime so a little off-topic, but a good example of an anime with barely any "plot" but good writing is Trava Fist Planet. People have no idea what to think of it because it lacks a traditional story structure so it's not internet-approved outside of the "sakuga" clique like Redline is, but the dialogue between the characters is really funny and charming.
>>142811991
>the "sakuga" clique
Uhhh I hate those fags, they're just as bad as people that complain about plot light anime.
>>142812083
What's wrong with them?
>>142812083
Honestly? I used to really, really want a "sakuga fandom" when the only people talking about animators were people who were animators themselves. But now that there is one I find it boring because it's just a bunch of people dropping names and using stock art critique phrasing that doesn't actually say anything.
They also do the Twitter thing where they post 4 screenshots (often of scenes that don't even look very good) and then write "[director] - ([year])" for a faux-academic feeling. Cringey as shit.
>>142811991
Trava Fist gets points for its conversation styles in that it actually seemed like people having random/idle chit chats rather than scripted dialogue, but in terms of the actual content of the conversation I didn't find particularly charming. Interesting in its unconventionality, sure, but not really that special.
>>142812152
>"[director] - ([year])"
I've never seen this. Nothing wrong with posting screenshots.
>>142812256
Obviously I'm not saying that posting screenshots is bad, just that some people do it in this lame faux-academic way and often seem to pick stuff completely at random that does not stand out in the slightest.
I guess we don't have the same experience because I followed a ton of really boring people on Twitter for lame cliquey reasons half a decade ago
>>142812152
Maybe I'm just retarded, but I don't get Twitter at all.
How do you discuss stuff on there? Don't you have a (very) small character limit to write? How can you even talk about anything worthwhile?
I'd say that's all there is to it, but I've seen multiple people mention how great Anitwitter, as they called it, is.
>>142812152
Those threads are plagued with Hyoka fags, what were you expecting.
>>142804465
Thats some Old Boy shit there.
>>142812306
Hi busterbeam
>>142812136
They're essentially the same people as those who judge anime by their plot, in most of the cases they don't even know what they're talking about or have wikipedia tier knowledge about their own favorite subject.
The vast majority of Sakuga-fags, especially here on /a/ only care about shonen animations and the best they could bring to the table are the same old and boring Birdy animations and some Kawajiri if you're lucky because Kawajiri is too mainstream anyway.
They're basically this>>142809459, but serious.
Granted, there are actually some Sakuga fags that are pretty cool people, but most of them are cretins who rate animation by the amount of frames in it.
>>142812152
I'm not personally a Sakuga enthusiast, I generally tend to look at anime and judge them by each aspect and then the sum of it, but I understand the passion in that, just as I understand the coding enthusiasts when it comes to videogames because hey're really fascinating topics and aspects of the crafts.
But Sakuga is worthless if you reduce it to mechanically analyzing animation frames, colours, scenography, dynamism, innovation, those are all aspect of Sakuga but most self declared Sakuga fans don't know shit about any of that, it's just the same old and tired discussions about muh fighting scenes when there's a whole world out there, it's like talking about stuff like Wicked City but taking only fighting sequences in consideration when there are gorgeus noir shots and cuts everywhere.
>>142812312
You can just write multiple tweets or use twitlonger. A lot of people say it's inherently terrible for conversation but I actually disagree, if anything it taught me to be less redundant in my writing.
I think it's more that the userbase tends to be really cliquey and bad because of the nature of "social media" which pretty much IS nothing but cliqueyness. It allows you to surround yourself with people who agree with you and block anyone who doesn't and most people will do it and avoid reading anything they might find disagreeable or uncomfortable.
That's a big part of why I still post on 4chan. The reason I got into Shotaro Ishinomori's work is because someoneo called me out on how retarded I was for judging his artistic skill based on the Kikaider manga which was mainly drawn by assistants. I posted the same dumb shit on Twitter before and no one called me out.
>>142812362
Making 007 a lame self-insert little kid is the shittiest thing about the 60s Cyborg 009 movie & TV show. He's fucking great in the manga and the 2000s show.
>>142812377
>But Sakuga is worthless if you reduce it to mechanically analyzing animation frames, colours, scenography, dynamism, innovation, those are all aspect of Sakuga but most self declared Sakuga fans don't know shit about any of that, it's just the same old and tired discussions about muh fighting scenes when there's a whole world out there, it's like talking about stuff like Wicked City but taking only fighting sequences in consideration when there are gorgeus noir shots and cuts everywhere.
I agree with this 100% and it's why I distanced myself from the whole "sakuga enthusiast" thing. In that phase I would not have been able to appreciate most Dezaki anime aside from the occasional fuller-animated exception like Cobra. Stuff like Treasure Island or Joe I would have probably just called "slide show bullshit" and ignored it.
I was also unable to explain why I enjoyed Go Nagai's 70s manga art beyond the extremely insecure "it's objectively badly drawn but I like the style" with "style" being a bunch of things I (wrongly) viewed as 100% subjective like facial expressions, poses and compositions and "objective quality" meaning purely anatomy, perspective and solid construction.
>>142812371
Hi
>>142812377
It's true that most people only appreciate action animation in anime, but I can't really blame them when that's what TV anime tends to focus on. For relative newcomers to appreciating animation that's the kind of stuff that gets their attention first and a number of those popular action scenes have got genuinely great animation.
>>142812826
I think it's also wrongheaded to immediately conclude that "action = fluff with no substance". Action can and is used with intent in good productions, and the animation of such action is thus extremely relevant.
Would FLCL work without its action sequences being as good as they are? Maybe, but it would probably be a lesser work overall. For a more specific example, would NGE 19 have the same impact if it wasn't for Iso's ridiculously amazing animation of the EVA going nuts and eating the Angel? It really wouldn't.
Of course then there is a lot of actually flashy, light stuff happening all the time in seasonal TV anime but then that's true for every aspect of media.
>>142812826
I personally just kinda naturally gravitated in my early teens towards stuff like Mind Game and FLCL which also had fun character animation. But even now if you search "Mind Game" on Sakugabooru there's fucking nothing. The movie is full of really good and funny character animation but it doesn't have the "epic" feeling that people generally associate with "sakuga" and they don't know who animated it and thus it doesn't get posted.
>>142812940
https://sakuga.yshi.org/post?tags=mind_game+
Well, there are two clips at the moment. I don't think it's a case of users not appreciating more subtle cuts but rather whoever bothered to upload stuff from it didn't go beyond picking the biggest standout cuts. Cutting stuff and cross-referencing the sakuga wiki for any credits can be a pain after all.
>>142813069
I tend to just post stuff I think is well-done even if I have no idea who did it. Astro Boy 2003 for example has pretty western cartoon-like animation & art direction in that everything mostly fits into the same style and you can't really tell who did what, but it's still an extremely well-animated show and it does have stand-outs. It's just that instead of "OH, IT'S [animator name]" it's "the character animation in this scene is particularly good" or "this action flows better than usual".
https://sakuga.yshi.org/data/50e5a8732f9c9820385b0ade84c0beaa.webm for example the motion here is much better than in the scene that comes immediately after when the theme song kicks in and Atom starts kicking Pluto's ass which was extremely fluid but totally weightless and lacking in impact.
>>142807478
https://bakabt.me/torrent/176878/tetsuwan-atom-astro-boy-2003-dvd-400p I dunno if this counts since the hong kong subs kick in at one point
I think even the Lupin Red Jacket series is the same, or at least it was in 2012 when I last checked. Some of the later episodes are beautiful but the dialogue is impossible to understand.
>>142813331
That's pretty good, but I'm most impressed by how it looks as a whole. Was it colored with cels? It looks good for a 2003 TV series.
>.the scene that comes immediately after when the theme song kicks in and Atom starts kicking Pluto's ass which was extremely fluid but totally weightless and lacking in impact.
If you don't mind, could you show me that scene? Kinda curious about how that's like.
Goddamn, This conversation you guys have been having has really opened up my eyes. I feel like a total pleb and that I need to rewatch everything I've seen now.
>>142813490
I'll have webm it, but okay.
It uses traditional cels despite being made in 2003. Only the opening is digital and has kinda ugly washed-out colors but thankfully the show looks totally fine; the shine everything has is a tad redundant and weird and makes it feel like everything is covered in baby oil, but aside from that it's a great looking show.
https://sakuga.yshi.org/data/6eed030b92379e33fc5aabb04421476e.webm here's another good scene from the Pluto arc
>>142813490
>>142813546
Alright here we go.
Weirdly enough the character acting surrounding the actual fight scene is very good. It's only this one fighting sequence that bothered me.
>>142813530
Man I wish I was a bigger fan if Milk-chan's sense of humor because I really like the art style and designs.
Or god knows maybe I'd like it more if I rewatched it today, it's been 9 years. I just remember not really getting it and thinking it was lame that the intro was nothing but references.
>>142813684
And here's what I mean by the character animation.
I hated Pluto's 2003 design at first because I thought it was too mechanical and I preferred the more manga one that looks more like a cartoony human, but after actually watching the episode it grew on me a lot because I got what they were doing. Basically he's normally a totally emotionless machine but has moments of subtle expression.
It's interesting to compare to Urasawa's modernization of his design which was even more human-like and organic looking than the Tezuka version.
>>142813684
I can see what you mean, the last cut especially could use more believable weight.
>>142813766
For the record this is Urasawa's Pluto.
>>142813806
He has some of the most over-the-top expressions I've seen from modern Urasawa.
His 80s art was more consistently exaggerated, but this is his Monster era so it took me by surprise.
>>142813832
And the Tezuka one.
>>142813884
For some reason Tezuka's Pluto almost never opens his mouth.
>>142813898
The 80s anime version can suck shit.
>>142802899
Midnight Blues is way better than that atrocious "eyy joe" song. It's melancholic as fuck.
>>142813530
It's kind of weird for me since I'm definitely not a sakuga guy, but I'm glad you've found something useful.
Animation is one of the last true crafts of our age and there's a lot of great stuff from all times to see.
>>142813950
Neither song is something I'd listen to as an MP3 outside of an anime but the "atrocious "eyy joe" song" was simply used much better. It felt like it was part of the scene as opposed to just a credits insert song, and I guess you could call the song itself cheesier or whatever but the actual execution of the scene was far subtler. No pointless monologuing bullshit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExHozD7lpDA#t=2m50s The manga scene actually flowed similarly in how subtle it was executed. The talking in the TV version is utterly redundant and almost as pointless as the narrator speech at the end of the 80s Astro Boy anime's Greatest Robot on Earth arc.
![[HorribleSubs] Ashita no Joe 2 - 47 [1080p].mkv_snapshot_23.02_[2016.06.13_16.14.24].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/U1bKxj9.jpg "[HorribleSubs] Ashita no Joe 2 - 47 [1080p].mkv_snapshot_23.02_[2016.06.13_16.14.24].jpg")
>>142814102
Also, the movie version being a slow zoom-out as opposed to a zoom-in works much better.
>>142814102
>Neither song is something I'd listen to as an MP3 outside of an anime
This is where we disagree. I very rarely listen to anime tracks in general, especially nowadays, but the second OP from AnJ2 feels like something specifically tailored to my tastes.
Easily one of, if not THE best anime opening I've ever had the pleasure of hearing.
Agreed on that the movie works better, though. If it wasn't for the music I wouldn't care.
>>142809866
movie
maybe I'm alone in this but I really don't like the TV version
![[Saizen]_Ashita_no_Joe_-_05_[DVD][45A53D84].mkv_snapshot_01.07_[2016.06.13_16.25.38].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/Xwsuhwl.jpg "[Saizen]_Ashita_no_Joe_-_05_[DVD][45A53D84].mkv_snapshot_01.07_[2016.06.13_16.25.38].jpg")
>>142814248
I actually downloaded the official soundtrack for the 70s show, not the 80s one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvfLcncxSGw
I actually really like the 70s soundtrack even though I normally never listen to anything that sounds like this, especially not soundtracks. I even like the melodramatic-as-fuck opening; It sounds so somber and straight-faced about the depressing-but-hotblooded nature of the show.
>>142814378
I don't think anyone dislikes the opening from the 70s version, it's pretty legendary. Although Rikishi's theme is better for me, and I found that the 80s ost had better tunes overall.
![[Saizen]_Ashita_no_Joe_-_04_[DVD][2C677E66].mkv_snapshot_19.33_[2016.06.13_16.30.33].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/JrttMi5.jpg "[Saizen]_Ashita_no_Joe_-_04_[DVD][2C677E66].mkv_snapshot_19.33_[2016.06.13_16.30.33].jpg")
>>142814413
Also, one scene I really loved in the 70s anime that I never see anyone mention is the bit in episode 4 where Danpei beats the shit out of Joe.
![[Saizen]_Ashita_no_Joe_-_04_[DVD][2C677E66].mkv_snapshot_20.00_[2016.06.13_16.29.11].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/IK7PUQY.jpg "[Saizen]_Ashita_no_Joe_-_04_[DVD][2C677E66].mkv_snapshot_20.00_[2016.06.13_16.29.11].jpg")
>>142814541
I have no idea who animated it but I wish I did. The drawings are so fucking messy and miserable-looking which is perfectly tonally fitting. And Joe's face gets seriously fucked up.
![[Saizen]_Ashita_no_Joe_-_04_[DVD][2C677E66].mkv_snapshot_19.49_[2016.06.13_16.28.45].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/gbtKYWB.jpg "[Saizen]_Ashita_no_Joe_-_04_[DVD][2C677E66].mkv_snapshot_19.49_[2016.06.13_16.28.45].jpg")
>>142814584
![[Saizen]_Ashita_no_Joe_-_04_[DVD][2C677E66].mkv_snapshot_20.20_[2016.06.13_16.36.26].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/GoordPe.jpg "[Saizen]_Ashita_no_Joe_-_04_[DVD][2C677E66].mkv_snapshot_20.20_[2016.06.13_16.36.26].jpg")
>>142814610
Shit like this is why I feel the 70s one has some advantages the 80s one. It's drawn technically worse and has far less movement but something about how depressing everything looked from the lines to the colors was great.
![[Saizen]_Ashita_no_Joe_-_04_[DVD][2C677E66].mkv_snapshot_18.42_[2016.06.13_16.41.53].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/KuJLjRW.jpg "[Saizen]_Ashita_no_Joe_-_04_[DVD][2C677E66].mkv_snapshot_18.42_[2016.06.13_16.41.53].jpg")
>>142814702
There's just something about a scene of a middle-aged drunkard beating the shit out of a hobo that makes these drawings perfectly fitting
![[Saizen-HnG]_Ashita_no_Joe_-_51_[DVD][8762AB73].mkv_snapshot_23.33_[2016.06.13_16.59.53].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/NRZvN2L.jpg "[Saizen-HnG]_Ashita_no_Joe_-_51_[DVD][8762AB73].mkv_snapshot_23.33_[2016.06.13_16.59.53].jpg")
>>142814841
Oh and this scene was goddamn fantastic too.
![[Saizen]_Ashita_no_Joe_-_10_[DVD][C7837726].mkv_snapshot_19.59_[2016.06.13_17.19.10].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/wjsqEVH.jpg "[Saizen]_Ashita_no_Joe_-_10_[DVD][C7837726].mkv_snapshot_19.59_[2016.06.13_17.19.10].jpg")
>>142815270
And also this one
fuck Joe is so good
>>142814378
>>142814541
>>142814584
>>142814702
As much as I agree with you guys, I do personally feel that while AnJ 2 isn't as gritty and depressing-looking, the change in art and music fit really well. The OP shined in the first AnJ, whereas AnJ 2 has an ED that complements the shift of tone:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl0kL7NixLY
It gives off a subtle sense of tragic beauty and optimism that nicely reflects Joe's development and new direction after the Rikiishi incident. It's pure pottery, man.
![[HorribleSubs] Ashita no Joe 2 - 47 [1080p].mkv_snapshot_16.07_[2016.06.13_17.32.57].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/5kJFBS7.jpg "[HorribleSubs] Ashita no Joe 2 - 47 [1080p].mkv_snapshot_16.07_[2016.06.13_17.32.57].jpg")
>>142815981
>you guys
It's just me samefagging.
Honestly I agree; I don't think the change is art is bad since Joe himself became less of an asshole bum and more of a tragic hero. I don't think the final battle for example would have worked as well with the old style. But the early art was perfect for a show where you weren't even rooting for the protagonist as much as waiting for him to get his ass kicked so he can learn some humility.
That song's also pretty cool.
![[HorribleSubs] Ashita no Joe 2 - 01 [1080p].mkv_snapshot_09.59_[2016.06.12_18.17.41].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/h3peGNy.jpg "[HorribleSubs] Ashita no Joe 2 - 01 [1080p].mkv_snapshot_09.59_[2016.06.12_18.17.41].jpg")
>>142816125
And fuck, it's not like the 80s style was totally glamorous and hyper-dealized either. It still has a scratchy roughness to it.
![[HorribleSubs] Ashita no Joe 2 - 30 [1080p].mkv_snapshot_22.55_[2015.11.11_16.37.31].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/yYGNx9u.jpg "[HorribleSubs] Ashita no Joe 2 - 30 [1080p].mkv_snapshot_22.55_[2015.11.11_16.37.31].jpg")
I like the monologue at the end.
The scene would be perfect if it had the music from the TV series, the one during the monologue, and the ending song from the movie.
I also appreciate 70s Joe cause i feel it has a more raw feel that combines well with how much real and primitive joe's character and his surroundings and interactions feel and also i like the contast with 80s being a more classy version showing joe a bit more mature.
>>142801892
why does no one translate golgo 13?
>>142816390
Because people hate good things. It's also the explanation for no Ganba or Dokonjo subs
Funnily enough, Ganba has Spanish subs (JP->CN->SP though). Thank god for not being a shitty American monolingual.
![[HorribleSubs] Ashita no Joe 2 - 47 [1080p].mkv_snapshot_21.22_[2016.06.13_17.52.48].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/DnWXYwP.jpg "[HorribleSubs] Ashita no Joe 2 - 47 [1080p].mkv_snapshot_21.22_[2016.06.13_17.52.48].jpg")
>>142816319
To be fair, I exaggerated my dislike of the monologue (as people tend to on 4chan); it's just that I really, really like anime scenes that get across a lot of emotion purely through music and imagery. I guess watching FLCL at age 13 will do that. I loved how it got across the pretty elaborate message of
>"Giving your best is awesome; but sometimes your best still isn't enough and no matter how hard you try you still won't be number one. But you know what? That's fine."
in such a simple way.
I also watched the movie version first so it had a bigger impact on me. I actually had absolutely NO IDEA that Joe lost at the end; I always assumed "well, it's a popular fighting shonen so surely he wins and THEN dies, right?". What actually happened took me by surprise and the way it was executed in a way that was so completely chilled out as opposed to melodramatic made it have an even bigger emotional impact.
>>142816610
A lesser series could have easily turned the ending into some "oh nooooo he tried so hard but he lost anyway life isn't fair abloobloo why" tearjerker but it's shit like this that makes a series a classic.
>>142816390
it's just too long
![[fong] Golgo13：The Professional [R2JDVDrip.10bit.ENsubs].mkv_snapshot_00.33.50_[2016.06.13_18.01.23].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/78n5cTq.jpg "[fong] Golgo13：The Professional [R2JDVDrip.10bit.ENsubs].mkv_snapshot_00.33.50_[2016.06.13_18.01.23].jpg")
>>142816390
>>142816737
I'm actually kinda curious about the manga after reading this post >>142808113
>>142816690
>"oh nooooo he tried so hard but he lost anyway life isn't fair abloobloo why"
That was never intended to be the message of Joe. It's stated multiple times in various ways during the anime that he doesn't give a fuck about winning with Jose.
>>142816949
I'm not saying it was; I'm saying it COULD have been in a worse series.
![[Anime Land] Golgo 13 The Professional 1983 (TS 720p Hi10P) RAW [1937E42A]v2.mkv_snapshot_00.21.46_[2016.01.03_23.16.02].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/USg7SAf.jpg "[Anime Land] Golgo 13 The Professional 1983 (TS 720p Hi10P) RAW [1937E42A]v2.mkv_snapshot_00.21.46_[2016.01.03_23.16.02].jpg")
Golgo 13 The Professional is my favorite anikme movie. A nice 80's action flick.
The OVA was also great.
>>142817005
>>142816949
Oh and also, I initially watched that video on Youtube when the second series wasn't even translated and Hox hadn't finished the manga. So yeah.
>>142817062
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcL9O038NQk
>>142817005
If it was, it would've probably been done way differently than Joe was. I'm not talking about the conclusion but also the lead-up as well.
![[fong] Golgo13：The Professional [R2JDVDrip.10bit.ENsubs].mkv_snapshot_00.10.14_[2016.06.13_18.11.57].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/jfCRgNm.jpg "[fong] Golgo13：The Professional [R2JDVDrip.10bit.ENsubs].mkv_snapshot_00.10.14_[2016.06.13_18.11.57].jpg")
>>142817062
It's the kind of movie where it's really hard to click on a random point in the seek bar and find a shot that doesn't look good. You might get lucky and find the 3DCG moments (which even Dezaki laughs at in the commentary) but that's about it.
>>142817179
I always found those 3DCG parts super out of place. I guess it was cutting edge at the time.
>>142817179
To be fair, I think that was literally the first use of 3DCG in anime. It looks silly, but he was playing with a new toy basically. If they release a BD they should fix it.
>>142817315
I suspect modern animators couldn't nail the very specific style of an early 80s Dezaki anime.
>>142817472
>>142817315
And yeah, to be fair even Pixar 3DCG could look like shit in the 80s.
>>142817472
>Dezaki
>animators
hehehehe amirite
>>142811233
Hakugei is mostly a fun ride but it falls apart at the end. It's hard to recommend something with a disappointing finish.
>>142813684
>>142813766
I remember watching 03 Astro Boy on tv. Dose anyone know if it got heavily censored?
>>142819129
More like horrid dubbing and rap techno music cause trying hard to make it hip like danny phantom.
![(G_P) Venus Wars (x264 720p)(0E7C0348).mkv_snapshot_00.37.11_[2016.06.12_21.40.37].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/S13DEQw.jpg "(G_P) Venus Wars (x264 720p)(0E7C0348).mkv_snapshot_00.37.11_[2016.06.12_21.40.37].jpg")
>older anime has so much more effort and detail!
>>142821176
At least post an actual bad example.
>>142810318
>It used to be different and not as industrialized
In the 50s, sure.
>>142821176
Should have listened to the anons that said I shouldn't watch this.
It was fucking shit.
>>142821176
Nigga, have you even watched Venus Wars?
Get your shitty bait outta here!
>>142809545
>All this animation shows is animators don't know how the fuck real people act.
Anime as a whole has not been trying to make characters act like real people since fucking 1963. The production system relies on low budgets, limited animation, and heavy codependence with manga, and all that has lead to a non-realistic visual repertoire. If you want muh realistic fluid character emoting all the time and dislike when people draw on anime's visual traditions for reference instead of real life, then you shouldn't have fucking chosen anime as your hobby, because this has been common since before you were born.
What are 90s anime worth watching? Looking for something not too dark and that makes your heart feel fuzzy (at least sometimes)
>>142823465
Cowboy Bebop!
>>142823465
escaflowne or outlaw star
>>142803915
What happened to the omnibus release that was supposed to be coming out in English? I heard it was a 2-1 or a hardcover. Really would love to own a ROV release like that.
Also been watching Leiji Matsumoto anime latelly, nearly done with 999, however my one complaint is how predictable and repetitive it becomes though the people Tetsuro and Maetel meet along the way on their journey never feel one dimensional. They all feel like well developed characters, everyone is pretty memorable in someway or another and they all have some kind of depth to them. It makes up for how repetitive the grand scale of things are.
So what would you suggest I watch next in his universe? I've seen Arcadia of My Youth which I loved a lot, and the Queen Emereldas OVA. After 999 I think I'll delve into Captain Harlock SSX.
>>142822207
It was really meh, and I still can't understand why they add that scene of the gay kid, or why they added him at all. But damn, there some good animation on it.
>>142823835
Also, personally I really like Venus Wars 2 manga; its like some action flick, with a wacky political intrigue, goofy moments and all.
Have there been any new subs/releases lately in the world of classic anime? I haven't watched anime since Nov. 2015, so I've been pretty out of the loop. I'd like to start up again. Gonna start Ashita no Joe tonight.
>>142823465
>>>/wsr/
This isn't your personal recommendation thread. Besides, a cursory search of Google or any of the myriad anime databases can easily give you what you're looking for. Use your brain.
Wild Seven is God's gift to man
Watch the OVA and marvel
>>142816610
>Giving your best is awesome; but sometimes your best still isn't enough and no matter how hard you try you still won't be number one. But you know what? That's fine."
Watch Dougram, the best written anime of the 80s.
>Back when writers weren't completely beta
>>142824610
Will someone ever retime the Takarajima subs?
>>142824610
Not really, if you exclude old robot shows and kingmenu. Excluding kingmenu is a good idea.
>>142802899
By the monologue do you mean the one where Joe recalls his conversation with Noriko?
>>142825421
>back when writers were fucking retarded
Devilman is shit. I also doubt you read much manga if you think no one writes muh bad boys anymore.
>>142822579
It's shit, and that is not because it's unrealistic.
The goal of animation has never been, since the fist hand drawn animated movie in the beginning of the last century, to be an exact mimicry of human movement (if we except rotoscopy).
Its goal instead is to convey the emotion the director wants to be conveyed, and deliver a movement that is congruent with the subject it intends to move. And when the subject is supposedly human, and the context not cartoonish, the talented animator tries to find a balance between the unlimited creative possibilities offered by animation and some connection to reality in order to remain relatable to the viewer (which is, usually, also human). To achieve that, the animator needs to be familiar with humans, and the way they express their emotions through facial expressions and body language.
That scene tries to portray a human emotion and it fails miserably. Her face is moving in all directions for no intelligible reason. It's shit because it doesn't achieve what it intends to transmit despite the effort and time invested. It is fluid but has no purpose.
It's not theoretical physics, just watch a Ghibli making of and you'll understand the problem.
>>142809459
>its fucking Keit-Ai
is this the new Loss?
>>142826595
You say it's shit but not because it's unrealistic, but then you go on to describe it being shit because it does not follow realistic rules of expression. I haven't seen this (it's Kokoro ga Sakebittegatterunda, right?) but it seems pretty clear that she's both angry and sad/distressed (more angry in the first two shots and more sad in the frontal one). It's not fucking hard to parse, and I don't think you have trouble with that either - it just doesn't look like how real people emote, but I have no issue with that.
And speaking of Ghibli, Miyazaki has always had issues the anime industry as a whole over precisely this kind of thing. It's not about muh digital-age animators are hacks, it's a longstanding creative difference.
>>142825511
Maybe. I'm no longer a NEET, so my free time is limited. Gotta rip Ganba too. I just built a PC, so it'll be a bit easier now than working with a finicky old laptop.
>>142827769
Also, I'll just add that that one bit at the start of the frontal shot where she jerks to her right while closing one eye does look retarded. Someone should have told them not to do that.
>>142801892
Whats the essential old anime core? I feel like i'm missing much but dont know which is worth to watch.
>>142827769
She's actually in a lot of physical pain, which I think a lot of people forget when they criticize that cut.
>>142827989
There isn't one, but lurking more will put you on the path to success.
>>142828241
>lurking more
>/a/
Yeah, i'm not interested in moe anime.
>>142828309
you can pick up a lot of stuff checking out series mentioned in threads like this. Boards are used for discussions, not for asking to spoonfeed you something that suits your taste that you can find in anime databases, archive, google.
>>142828309
At this point I just want you to lurk more so you can become less of a shitter. Seriously who the fuck still complains about moe? Be less obvious. Lurking gives you sweet recs and makes you less obnoxious, it's win-win.
