What went so right?
>>142616910
This
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uvbaM-URygs
>>142616910
This.
This
>>142616910
Not being written by that hack Nasu was a start.
>>142617819
Why is he a hack?
>>142616910
Lack of Shirou and harem bullshit.
Suit seiba
>>142618067
>lack of the best character in the series and [buzzword]
Iri is the only thing holding this relationship together. Not the Grail. Not any end goal. But a single person who isn't even human.
>>142618294
What is best car, and why is it the Mercedes Benz 300 SL Gull wing?
>>142616910
Just downloaded this off nyaa last night. What should I expect?
>>142618294
OP, why are you doing this >>>/vg/144916835 ?
>>142618383
Did you read the VN beforehand.
>>142617819
>written by Butcher
>>142617877
Because he took a great premise and ruined it exactly like the person who wrote SAO. Also this >>142618067
>>142618067
>lacking one of the most well developed characters
>>142618480
What premise did he take? Or did you mean "create"?
>>142618424
All I watched was the 2006 anime in high school. I don't even remember anything about the series besides the servants and the holy grail wars.
>>142618527
>I watched was the 2006 anime in high school
>>142618527
Read the VN.
>>142618501
He's literally a sword, how is that a "developed character"?
>>142616910
Kill yourself, OP.
>>142618585
It was damn near a decade ago anon. I'm sorry.
>>142618586
Ok.
>>142618634
Read the VN.
>>142618480
Can you explain more?
>>142618634
He's the bone of his sword.
Idiot.
>>142616910
No fucking highschool bullshit
>>142618818
Got a problem with Shirou chuuni wish-fulfilment adventures (with cooking)?
>>142619051
>>>/vg/144918686
No surprise /fgog/ cancer has no reading comprehension.
HF > Zero > UBW > Fate
>>142619140
I was 13 once too.
>>142619140
Zero = HA > HF = Fate > UBW
>>142619140
>>142619181
UBW > HA > Zero > Fate > HF
>>142619181
UBW > Zero = HA > HF = Fate
>thinking that the premise it's important in nasu works
heh -I'm pretty sure you did not even watched entry level garbage like kara no kyokai.
Seriously guys, do you want a snorefest like fate/zero or an exciting shit like FSN?
I mean we watch anime, read manga, LN and VN for fun instead of being deep, right?
>>142619222
HF=HA>UBW>Zero>Fate
>>142619289
>ESL
>thinks F/Z is nearly as deep as FSN when it barely skims over 10% of the VN's themes
>thinking Rakkyo is garbage
fucking end yourself
>>142618634
He's not a deep character or anything, but if all you got out of him was "he's a sword", then Fate is literally 2deep4u
Zero>>>Shit>>Everything else
>>142619119
>Posting in generals
>Posting gacha trap mobile game generals
>>142616984
The only true answer. Phantasm is the very best Type Moon series.
>>142619414
>He's not a deep character or anything
His wants and desires aren't particularly deep- at least on a surface level, but I think he's actually pretty nuanced.
I mean the guy has branching character development, and people have been arguing over his choices what they deem and see as 'right' for over a decade now.
>>142619414
I don't understand why people h8 Shirou. I can understand Rin, Sakura or Saber but Shirou?
>>142619597
His entire character is about being a huge moralfag.
>>142619358
(you)
Saber shouldve been Irisviel's servant. She hated kiritsugu's guts
>>142619672
There's nothing wrong with having morals, especially when his story focuses on him trying to understand and follow those morals.
>>142616984
Illya said herself there would never be a second season.
>>142619790
It got 3 seasons. The celebration is over so there is no need for season 4 until Type-Moon's next festival.
>>142619817
How will they ever top that intro song?
>>142619597
It's people who haven't read the VN. Ignore them.
>>142619843
There's only one way. I'm pretty sure every fate fan would cum in their pans if they made this the new intro, with new animation of course.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FyiR-EaQBQw
>>142619597
Phaggets can't self-insert as shirou and can't get enough pleasure dreaming about how they will fuck Rinwhich is the worst girl in the vn.
>>142619672
>buzzword
What's wrong with having morals? As far i know, even a depravated site like /a/ has it's own morals and "what to and what not to do" norms.
>>142619917
You don't even have to read the VN to like Shirou.
>>142619976
>Rinwhich is the worst girl in the vn
Rude.
>>142619976
>Rinwhich is the worst girl in the vn
Not when Sakura exists
>>142620015
VN aside, she is really cute in the Fandisc.even thought she likes to please old men for money
Fate/stay night is written from Shirou's point of view, but Fate/Zero is drawn from many different points of view.
Uro: True. Fate/stay night was originally conceptualized as a bishojo game, so the very individual theme of "romance" was placed at the core. It had to be written from Shirou's point of view. So then I thought, I have this really powerful core idea of all these Eiyuu (heroic spirits) engaged in a Battle Royale, so why not draw their story from multiple point of views? That's why I tried to work more main characters into Fate/Zero other than simply Kiritsugu and Kirei.
Nasu: I had no other choice but to make Fate/stay night the way I did for that bishojo game format. That was one of the reasons why I once said to Urobuchi, "I don't think I can make bishojo games anymore." The more you pour both what the author wants to draw and romance elements that will excite the users into a work, the more distant they get from each other... that was my dilemma. Trying to force them together would only warp the work. Then, at the same time, Urobuchi-san decided to stop focusing on bishojo games and distance himself from the genre.
>>142620053
>Sakura
>Worse than rin
Holy fuck, did you even HF?
I don't know, but if a girl says horrible things to and about her raped for years and tortured sister just because it hurts his pride, then that girl is absolutely shit.
>>142619817
What do you mean? When's that?
>>142620160
>her*
FTFY Anon-san
>>142620160
You got to see a bit of Rin's darker side in HF, but don't act like Sakura was innocent. That was a tough situation for everyone.
>>142619597
He has retarded ideals, he's bent on outdated ridiculous values such as "hurr ladies shouldn't be hurtful" even when said lady is a magical being a hundred times more powerful than he is, he puts himself in unnecessary dangers and cannot read the mood nor actually understand he's deep in the woods until he's shown to be so (remember when he kept being friendly to Tohsaka in UBW despite being warned of her hostility, getting therefore cornered into the empty hallway?), he relies on heroism that only hold him up because of plot armor through retarded writing (hurr I suddenly have an enlightenment and can create weapons out of fucking nowhere to defeat enemies, literally "willpower" nekketsu-tier plot device) and he acts like an idiot every time he so much as TOUCHES a female character.
He's a retarded, harem-tier, completely unlikeable idiot.
>>142620160
Though I like Rin, I'm not saying she doesn't have flaws. Personally, I'm a Saberfag. Don't act like Sakura doesn't have faults of her own
>>142620200
Type-Moon's 15th or 20th anniversary most likely. who knows. Check the CP website.
heavens-feel.com/type-moon_10_anniversary_phantasm_translation.html
>>142620217
Either solid bait, or Shirou is literally too deep for you to understand. You're completely looking at him at a surface level.
>>142620217
>"hurr ladies shouldn't be hurtful"
Confirmed for not reading the VN, he only says this because that's his own way to act, he does not want anybode to get hurt, not even a bit.
>He's a retarded, harem-tier, completely unlikeable idiot.
Opinion discarded, try again.
He is only retarded.
>>142620209
Empathy is basic in human beings.
>>142620313
Aah, le famous "2deep4u". Long time no see.
They got a guy that could write a competent story.
>>142618294
>Just a crime we call victory
I forgot how much of a fedora tipper Kerry was
>>142619181
>>142619211
>>142619140
Fate>all
I enjoy Saber, what can I say?
>>142620353
And you don't understand where Rin's coming from. She's grown up trying to be the perfect magi. Magi aren't supposed to be empathetic, and that's the rub. She has to deal with a tough situation involving her sister, while dealing with holding up the mantle her father placed on her.
>>142620410
I feel like the dynamic between Saber and Shirou was better in HF
>>142620353
>he only says this because that's his own way to act
>confused_anime_girl_with_question_mark.jpg
>>142620410
My nigga. Saber is a miracle of the universe, even though I acknowledge that Fate is objectively the worst route
>>142620360
Well it's true. Thinking Shirou wanting to help others is retarded is the tried and true way of sorting out either people who don't get the story, or edgelords.
>>142617819
Too bad butcher is an even worse hack and an edgelord too. Also Nasu kept butcher on a leash, he barely deserves credit for Zero when all the framework was already created by Nasu.
>>142616910
Nothing. Not a single thing.
>>142620217
>>142620360
Because you're literally wrong about everything you fucking retard. He doesn't actually believe the "girls shouldn't fight" thing; it's an excuse he made up on the spot so he doesn't have to see people get hurt for his sake. This goes for both genders because he does the same thing with Archer in UBW.
Now read the VN before posting again.
>>142620410
So, because you like Saber you place Fate higher? What a retard.
>>142620217
>"hurr ladies shouldn't be hurtful"
>Implying this shit wasn't in Zero all. the. fucking. time.
Nasu: Simple. I decided the story would unfold like this when I first started, and the characters would serve the theme of the story. It was only natural the story would end like this. Really, that was it. In fact, I thought the Normal End was the natural conclusion of Sakura Route. In the draft, the Normal End was the True End.
...
Nasu: Yes. It (Normal End) was the only conclusion considered at the time. However, after writing about 2/3 of it, I found that the story itself did not allow such a conclusion. After that, I wrote the original conclusion, and then followed the story and write the happy end. Since this was Shirou's tale of happiness after losing so much, even if Sabre and Ilya were lost, at least he should let Sakura achieve happiness. And this was the conclusion. Even though Sakura indirectly became a mass murderer, there was no reason to deny her of happiness. I came up with this idea that if one were alive, it was not bad to redeem him/herself while looking forward to happiness. Even though this was hypocrisy, I felt that the story itself strongly demanded this possibility. To be honest, it was the first time that I lost to the story I wrote.
>>142620777
A real human bean.
>>142620777
>Sakura indirectly became a mass murderer
Wormfags will still deny it.
>>142620777
Here Nasu admits he forced HF True.
>>142620718
>be Kiritsugu
>consider his Heroic Spirit as merely more than a tool
>puts his wife and his mistress in danger and risks it all for his ideals
>kills his teacher and first lover to prevent a catastrophy
>Fate Zero : "ladies shouldn't be hurt"
Wow.
>>142620777
Nasu: Yes. Originally I wished to connect the world of DDD with Hollow, but the later proved to be too time-consuming, so I was not able to do so. As a result, I separated the themes of the two works completely. For Hollow, I endeavoured to achieve all I could through the medium of computer game; for DDD, I wrote down all I wanted to express at that time. DDD was the first novel written entirely for my personal interest since Kara no Kyoukai. I think it had a strong personal touch.
Murakami: For instance, in Fate, Shirou can repair objects, but this was not the true nature of his abilities. Furthermore, "repairing" itself is a process of returning the abnormal to normal. However, there is nothing normal in this World, and everything is abonormal. In order to survive, one cannot depend on "repair", but maintenance through "adjustments". This theme, I think, was best illustrated through the scene where DDD protagonist Ishizue Arika repaired Karyou Kaie's false hand.
Nasu: Thank you. I am very happy that you interpreted it this way.
(These are from Type-Moon's 10th anniversary festival, by the way)
>>142620777
> even if Sabre and Ilya were lost, at least he should let Sakura achieve happiness
What a fucking waste
>>142621025
Nasu: Thank you. I am very happy that you interpreted it this way.
Is this his way of saying you're wrong?
Illya >>>>>>>> Universe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> World > Caren > Rin = Saber > Medusa = Taiga > Sella > Medea = Sakura > Liz > Ayako >>>>>>>>> Track team captain and her shitty friends
>>142621025
Who is that Murakami person?
>>142621200
Fug, I forgot Bazett.
>>142620970
Urobuchi: I don't consider Saber a heroine. Romance with her seems awkward and unfitting. Makes her weak.
>mmkay
Has her be a whiny little bitch and get treated like a dumb little girl despite her showing herself to be a cold, calculated King in Stay/Night, and willing to ambush and harm humans/uninitiated if it meant achieving her goals.
>Zero!Saber: Muh muh chivalry. Please don't hurt muh feelings. I'm just not good at his King thing as you big manly men, okay?
>>142620360
The scene where he blurts that out has an extremely fucking explicit cut to his inner monologue in washed out tones so as to signal the difference between what he's saying and what he's thinking. Shirou lies out his ass throughout the whole novel whenever someone asks him why he does things.
It's not "too deep", actually, it's quite bloody blatant. You just don't know because you're a retard who's never read the novel.
>>142621286
To this day I have no clue what Butcher was thinking going with the whole "muh chivalry" thing.
>>142620777
If normal route was the true route, what would happen to the best scene in the VN?
>>142620510
>be a normal student
>get caught in a magical war
>participates
>enemies are ready to.do kill to win by using magic beings and spells that can kill him anytime while he can't do shit
>"huurrr stop fighting for my sake I'll be fine"
There are limits to idiocy and Shirou breaches them.
>>142621345
It's not like she's particularly scrupulous in FSN either. The story starts with her trying to hack Rin in two on sight just because she's the enemy Master and she's totally on board with ambushing Kuzuki.
She's got personal stuff like thinking she ought to reveal her name to Kojirou because he introduced himself or refusing to eat people, but the idea that she's be horrified by pragmatism is just flat-out retarded.
>>142621407
Why are you pretending the narrative doesn't agree with you? The whole story is about Shirou's mental illness.
>>142621431
Shit, that looks interesting. What's that from?
>>142621407
Yes, this is seen as readily insane in the story, and is addressed as Shirou's character is unraveled through the narrative.
>>142621471
Because he's either a retarded troll or a complete moron Zerobaby. Either way, why are you wasting your time replying?
>>142621502
Type-Moon's 10th anniversary festival
>>142619938
I know I would.
>>142621445
And then you'll have Zerofags go
>She's that cold and calculated because of Zero! It hardened her! Now she doesn't hesitate and goes for the kill!
>>142621407
>be a normal student
>normal
>Shirou
>normal
>>142621286
Saber is a shit character no matter where you see her but she definitely does a great job in F/S N when she rushes ahead and falls into traps or confronts heroic spirits without prior knowledge about them nor actual planning and ends up jobbing everytime, right?
>>142621618
she literally kills gilgamesh in FSN
I hated Sakura.
>>142619446
Come and join usssssssss~
It is fuuuuuuun~
We all have fuuuuun in heeeereeee~
>>142621471
I'm literally saying Shirou is unlikeablr because he's completely retarded. Coming up with "the plot made him so" doesn't actually counter the argument and only gives me reason. Your average haremshit MC is also retarded but I don't see you defending them.
Face it, Shirou is a retarded and unlikeable character.
>>142621754
Ok, you're entitled to your opinion.
>>142621754
The typical 'I can't self-insert as him' response.
Shirou is a mentally unwell person, and growing to understand him, and how he deals with his problems , is the core of the story.
>>142621618
Who said anything about her doing a great job of anything? Unless we're talking about her being a great King. Which she is/was undoubtedly.
So many furious VNEETs / nasufags
Q: So, Shirou's lunchboxes are Issei's favourite food? It's not like he has any questionable feelings besides friendship for him... right?
A: He wouldn't dream of or hope for it - that's something even I can't say. But Issei's feelings are those of a true male friend. Friendship between guys is the best!
Q：一成の好物は士郎のお弁当とのことですが、彼が士郎に友人以上の微妙な感情を持つ可能性は...... ないですよね。
A：そんな夢も希望もないこと、とても僕の口からは言えません。でも一成の好意は純粋に男友達としてだよ。 男同士の友情サイコー！
>>142621961
Shinji was a better friend that Issei.
>>142621754
I don't think you get what people were originally arguing in regards to Shirou. I can understand why he isn't likable for many people, and thats okay. But whether you like him or not has absolutely no bearing on the fact that he was a well fleshed out character. Literally nobody in Zero even comes close to him in that. Mind you, I'm not saying he's "deep", he should be easy to understand if you read properly.
A lot of people seem to fail at that though.
>>142621754
>Comparing Shirou to average haremshit MC
Name me one who's stupidity is crucial for the story's thematic and character's exploration.
>>142621961
The finale to the UBW anime was setting up Issei and Ayako to be a thing.
>>142621948
>say something retarded
>get called for it
>hur dur u mad
Next thing you say is that you were just pretending.
>>142621948
>furious
Literally who?
>>142621948
Sorry for liking a series senpai
The basis for Last Episode was Shirou being the Tin Man in Alice in Wonderland. And just like the Tin Man, Shirou finished his quest and found his heart.
>>142616910
> What went so right?
No self-insert bullshit that was very present in the first series/VN.
>>142622324
>not self inserting as Waver
>>142616910
Gilgamesh was pretty awesome and Iskandar too
>>142622324
Now we need the Strange Fake anime.
>>142616910
Everything about Avenger.
>>142622324
Nothing wrong with self-insertion if it's not wish fulfillment.
>>142622402
I hate all the new shit they introduced in the novels. It doesn't even have the same feel as the oneshot anymore.
>>142622324
>No self-insert bullshit
Why do people still think Shirou was made to be self-inserted into? Go ahead, try and play Stay/Night as yourself and see how well that goes for you.
>>142622404
Angra is literal bae what the fuck are you talking about anon
>>142622405
Self-inserting limits your horizon to only male characters, so it's still detrimental.
Unless you can self insert as the girl too.
Zero getting an anime adaptation before any of the routes from the VN was the worst thing that could have happened to the franchise.
>>142622324
>self-inserting as Shirou
Fucking lel, go read the VN you retarded faggot.
>>142622482
I don't think you know what self insertion is.
>>142622516
The 2006 anime exists, though. People just (wrongly) tell others to avoid it.
>>142622482
>Self-inserting limits your horizon to only male characters, so it's still detrimental.
Go back to Tumblr.
>>142622448
desu I don't think its Fate if it isn't done by Nasu himself. And not just letting run over with it to make sure its okay, I mean actively participating and writing majority of the work. Archer Herc is nice, but Strange Fake and Apocrypha just doesn't give me the same feeling as Stay/Night.
>>142622516
It's what Nasu wanted.
>>142616910
Fate/kaleid Prisma Illya saved the franchise
>>142622516
>Zero getting an anime adaptation before any of the routes from the VN
Except that's not true. DEEN made a FSN anime.
Also Zero is the only good thing to come out of the series so meh.
>>142622724
More like Zero was the start to many bad things to come out of the franchise. I take Grand Order and Fragments more serious than I do Zero.
>>142622799
Ufotable can do some things right. That's nice Now if they'd hurry up and adapt Hollow that would be great.
>>142622808
>More like Zero was the start to many bad things to come out of the franchise.
Like what? What is in Zero that isn't in FSN?
>>142622840
Dumb-ass adults making mistakes that they shouldn't for the sake of
>muh suffering and plot
>>142622840
Well, the major difference between Zero and HF is that, despite the darkness in it, HF has a generally positive message (of protecting your loved ones) and a happy ending. Zero has neither. All the major characters essentially die for nothing, and in general their actions make matters worse, not better. Pretty much every problem in FSN can be traced directly back to Zero. Not to mention that most of the characters are very unsympathetic, and those who are not get broken totally by the events of the story and do not get anything even remotely resembing a happy ending (Kariya in particular).
The closest thing you'd get to Zero from FSN would be a Mind of Steel continuation where Gilgamesh got the Grail and succeeded in releasing it partially, but Shirou stopped him at the last minute before he could take down anything beyond Fuyuki. Then, Shirou would recall the last words of Rin (and how she had been crying over killing Sakura as he killed her), and how he'd killed Ilya in cold blood, and would break down in tears.
>>142622545
>>142622724
Yeah but the amount of retarded edgelords that Deen version attracted is nowhere close to what Zero did. It brought on a whole new era of shitposting in fate threads.
>>142622808
This is what I meant.
>>142621431
>>142621502
http://paper2k1.egloos.com/5674013
>>142623175
Deen attracted edgelords. How?
>>142623276
Not that guy, but they did give us this.
Changing the story to fit Shiro getting with Rin was a shit idea and just taking away Saber's screen time and role as heroine to Rin
>>142623550
>>142622449
>>142622539
>implying I have not read FSN already
>>142622405
The way FSN reads is really wish fulfillment.
You're first person adventuring and conquering a woman for each route. Gilgamesh showing up in the first route seems so NTRish during the first go-run, you can see why a lot of insert faggots from FSN still hate him right now. You also get power-ups, you change in each route in order to be more compatible with the heroines.
There's a fucking good reason why in a lot of Fate threads, we see insert faggots writing harem fanfics about their insert character needing to have a route with [insert female character here].
>>142623550
Stay mad Saberfag
>>142623624
>You're first person adventuring
First person has literally nothing to do with self insertion. It allows for the reader to get a deeper bit of insight into the protagonist, or character at hand's, mind.
It's the opposite of self insertion, really. You're seeing things directly how another person sees them.
>we see insert faggots writing harem fanfics about their insert character needing to have a route with [insert female character here].
I don't really see a lot of people specifically bringing up wanting Shirou to fuck other characters, it's more like fans want to see more of the characters they like that don't get enough spotlight.
>>142623675
You unironically like Rin?
>>142623731
I'd say only faggots don't, but then you can't forget Luvia.
>>142623731
You don't like the exposition character?
>>142623811
She's the Nasu self insert.
>>142623720
>it's more like fans want to see more of the characters they like that don't get enough spotlight.
You can have that without writing in your faggot insert every which way. Like Fate Zero, Garden of Avalon, Extra/CCC, Prototype, and even Tiger Collosseum.
People might not want to admit it, but saying "gotta have a route with [heroine] to see more of her past" is a fucking excuse to have their insert get more harem fanfic bullshit.
If you truly don't insert, like I do, then you would not give a fuck if your insert is there anymore in future stories or not.
But no, these insert faggots keep complaining when their insert isn't showing up in previews for future series. Fuck, they got really annoying when Assassin Kiritsugu showed up. They really wanted their dumbass insert as an Assassin.
>>142616910
It was ghost-written.
I assume this is the "Fate is pretty shit ever since F/SN or Zero" thread, and other various assertions.
But who cares about that shit, Extella is coming out in English officially localized, no dub, original voices only, and its the second or third actual officially brought over Fate game to date.
This is pretty huge, lets all buy it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPMKa3pxVP8
Why would people not like Old Men Pleaser Tohsaka Rin?
>>142623845
I can't even read this
>>142623845
Assassin Kiritsugu?
>>142623845
Anon you sound like you're doing some seriousprojecting.
>>142623845
I am entirely confused. Are you saying that if you like Shirou at all, and want to see him in further installments of the series, you're inherently self inserting?
>>142623624
You literally have no-idea how self-insert works.
Also, what of the Zero tryhards who try to get their favorite character happy endings by making them smarter and their all-encompassing flaws non-existent?
>>142623845
So wanting an Illya route means I must self insert as Shirou?
Someone explain what self-insert is to me
>insert faggots don't even know they're inserting
>posts reaction faces of their insert which they subconsciously made because of their self-insertion max x10
Such is Fate thread self-insert faggotry.
>>142623914
Grand Order
>>142623962
A buzzword.
>>142623981
I want to self insert into you, honey.
>>142623845
Do you even know what the fuck you're talking about?
>>142623962
Shitrou
With that said, Kiritsugi is a shit MC too regardless of not being self-insert
>I have to destroy the plane hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
>>142623936
Those Zero tryhards don't make harem fanfictions where they become Lord Harem Masters.
If you suddenly saw Diarmuid posters having Rin and Saber sucking his dick in their fics, then that guy is also a self-inserting prick.
Same with Gilgamesh or Iskander.
But because of how Zero is written, it is much harder to insert. Due to FSN's first person perspective, it's much easier to do so without even noticing it.
>>142623937
Yes.
>>142623962
It's not actually self-insert, but rather "insert". Those two are different. Self-insert is the author doing the inserting. Inserting is the readers doing the "I live vicariously through [enter hero's name here]" bullshit.
>>142622878
Well, Zero is a nihilistic work after all.
>>142623845
Top bait but keep in mind that even though Archer and Shirou are the same person, they are not the same character. I doubt anyone was expecting or even wanting Assassin EMIYA to be "Shirou" but rather Assassin Archer since we already knew he qualified for the class. And Archer is far more popular than Shirou or Kerry, so that's not really surprising.
>>142623981
Your right anon, I do want to insert myself into Shirou. I want to hear his muffled cries and confused pants as he accepts me into him. Forget the other bitches, forget the Grail War. The only sword Shirou'll be analyzing is mine.
>>142624033
Yes. Anyone in this thread who is trying to deny that FSN has a measure of insertion in it is an insertfaggot in denial. They just don't want to admit they inserted into a character and that all the stories (fanfics) they've written was not creativity but rather, egotistical and imaginary fapwork/patting oneself on the back that "they (their insert is them)" fucked Saber/Rin/Sakura/Rider/Whoever.
>>142624064
What do you have to say about the Highschool AUs then?
>>142624127
>>142624064
>>142624139
It sounds like you care ten times more about fanbases than you do about the actual work in question. Who cares about fanfics holy shit, do you actively seek out things to trigger yourself?
>>142624106
No. A grown up version of the insert is STILL the insert.
It's just that, people can now say, "MORE BADASS VERSION OF MY INSERT."
You guys are insufferable at making excuses for yourselves.
>>142624127
That's not insertion. You just swing that way.
>>142624127
>this guy
Shirou, and FSN as a whole, is literally designed not to allow self insertion.
The choices you make in the game aren't a result of what you want to happen in the story, they're essentially tests to see if you understand how Shirou, as a character, reacts.
That's why people get frustrated with him early on. He doesn't do what you want him to do.
>>142624127
>>142624187
Someone asked why I thought Fate Zero was better and why it was great. My opinion is that it lacked the insertion bullshit that FSN had.
Then a bunch of in-denial inserters claim that no insertion happened in a first person perspective eroge where the fanbase loves to make insert harem fanfics just to satiate their own insert antics.
It's not that I care, it's that I am trying to tell people they're wrong when they say there's no insertion in FSN. There is. There's a lot of it.
>>142624139
Keep going anon, you're making my night.
>>142624274
What's wrong with insertion?
Okay, can this be an Illya thread now?
>>142623914
You need to keep up on lore
He's not a legitimate real hero, he's just another dumb counter guardian.
>>142624249
I mean there are points in the story where the choice system is used rather cleverly to point augment elements of his characters.
There's the whole "bring Ilya back" choice in HF, obviously, where there's no other option, but have you ever noticed that there isn't a single choice during the Archer fight?
"I have no regrets, this is the only path".
There were no other choices to be made during that scene.
>>142624274
What members of the audience may or may not be doing when they read the story has no impact whatsoever on the quality of the work itself.
>>142624249
>That's why people get frustrated with him early on. He doesn't do what you want him to do.
The same thing can be said about Tohno Shiki in Tsukihime.
You can get stuck in multiple loops to bad ends if you do not make the correct choices in every route of the game.
Tohno Shiki is an insert, so is your insert. Stop making excuses. You insert. You just deny it so you wouldn't be as shit as the Shitkifags. But at the end of the day, you are the same as those inserters.
>>142624243
Maybe, just maybe... he was corrupted by the Grail.
No, nevermind, he was always like this.
>>142624325
Why is he a nigger though? Does time alter do that too?
>>142624243
>>142624325
The new lore doesn't really add anything interesting though
>>142624345
You make no arguments. You just say things, and try to strong arm people into believing what you think.
That's not proper discourse.
>>142624356
You could basically just say its a meta reference to the other EMIYA servant, to make them seem similar. Apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
A lore reason would be that yes, Time Alter did that. Any magic if you take it beyond your limits will fuck up your body in similar ways.
>>142624345
>he's an insert, stop making excuses
Quality evidence to back up your assertion
>>142624392
I think he just wanted to bash Tsukihime for no reason.
>>142624409
I never thought of it this way but what if you were already a nigger, would the magic overuse then turn you white?
>>142624348
Gil can't be corrupted by the grail.
>>142624341
Actually, FSN was designed for people to insert. It had harem-ish moments and the heroines were all designed to fall for the hero regardless. The perspective was completely first person and you are given multiple excuses to like said character over the entire course of the VN.
This is not as prevalent in the Fate novels, because of multiple character storylines, forcing you to meld with multiple characters instead of just one.
The ONLY way you can say you do not insert is the NTR test.
If you do not give a shit if Saber/Rin/Medusa/Sakura/whoever getting into a romantic life with another male character that is not connected in any way to the insert character, then and only then are you not inserting.
If you do, you're inserting. Hard.
>>142624139
But anon, I have accepted that I'm an insertfaggot. I want to self-insert into Shirou so that I can self-insert into Shinji.
Look at him. Who wouldn't want to face fuck him to tears?
>>142624392
>the arguments are there and in previous posts
>hurr you no make argoomints
Acting like an idiot is not an argument.
>>142624482
Now you're justfifying being a cuck.
>>142624482
>If you do not give a shit if...
This is individual to the reader and is therefore totally irrelevant to the work itself.
>>142624482
First person stories have nothing to do with self insertion.
This level of ignorance is laughable.
Are you confused with second person? That's the one where the narrative directly refers to the protagonist as "you".
>>142623731
Rin is perfection.
>>142624591
A BEST!
>>142624534
I really have no issue with people inserting.
All I'm saying is that Fate Zero (OP question) is superior because it doesn't have to deal with any insertion bullshit.
You can insert all you want, so long as you're honest about it. I just don't like it when people come in and say "This shit can't be inserted into!" when people clearly do it all the time.
>>142624482
If I dislike NTR I'm self inserting as Shirou? I don't know, I wouldn't like it if Caster NTRd Kuzuki.
>>142618695
EVERYTIME
>>142624649
Which had the better story, FSN or FZ?
>>142624649
>Fate Zero (OP question) is superior because it doesn't have to deal with any insertion bullshit.
But why, anon? Why does being uninsertable make a work superior?
>>142624649
I self insert as Kiritsugu.
What now?
>>142624649
I self insert as Kariya.
What now?
>>142624649
He was designed to be a self-insert for the reader, which is why he is so shit as a magus and SUCH A SUPER NICE GUY THAT PROTECTS WOMMINS.
The closest thing to interesting about him is what he grows up to be, but even that manages to be all emo about his situation.
And when I say 'designed to be a self-insert', it is the truth. After all, the original story had the main character being a female and summoning an actually male Saber/King Arthur. Because Nasu knew the VN audience just wanted to project onto a main character and have a varied cast of girls in their sex scenes, he changed the MC to Shirou and Saber to a girl.
>>142622324
I don't get how people self-insert into Shirou.
>>142624560
No. Again, the WORK is predisposed to create insertion because of how it is written. FZ was not written in such a manner, so insertion is really difficult for it.
>>142624559
No, it's a test. You can only be cucked if you think you're the character.
>>142624568
Yes, they do. They make it far easier to insert than otherwise.
And no, there is no confusion here. You are literally making choices for "your" character in FSN or Tsukihime. The pain they feel gets directly transferred to you. Their thoughts and experiences.
This is why a lot of inserters write fanfics with heroines or harems. Because it is a continuation of their conquests from the VN.
>>142624711
it's lazy
>>142624482
>the heroines were all designed to fall for the hero regardless.
Cept for the bad ends where you get killed or mind-wiped.
>This is not as prevalent in the Fate novels
Or maybe, just maybe, VN and LN are made with different outlooks in mind? Hmmm.
>If you do not give a shit if Saber/Rin/Medusa/Sakura/whoever getting into a romantic life with another male characte
What about the obvious rape going on with Shinji and Medsua. Or Shinji and Sakura? And what about Rin NTR-ing Saber? C'mon anon! Two wrongs don't make a right.
>>142624711
Shirou is actually a good protagonist BECAUSE he has a personality which some people hate and some people like.
I want my VNs to be "stories told from the perspective of a certain character that we root for", not a "replacement for my social life".
I wish more protagonists had personalities, faces and perhaps even voice acting.
>>142624820
That doesn't say anything, anon.
>>142624811
>Yes, they do. They make it far easier to insert than otherwise.
What is your proof of this.
The level of ignorance here really is astonishing. You're not just making grandiose statements about FSN, you're making them about an entire narrative perspective.
Any novel that uses first person is self insertion?
Is third person the only objective means to tell a narrative to you?
I'd think plenty of scholars would disagree.
>You are literally making choices for "your" character in FSN or Tsukihime
We've been over this. You don't make the choices. You can't direct how Shirou reacts to a situation. If you go against what he would want as a character, you get a bad end.
>>142624794
They're retarded and somehow fail to see all his characterization and personality and insert their own, then get angry when they realize Shirou operates on his own thoughts, not yours, and so the "Shirou is stupid" meme is born.
Nobody self inserts as Shiki, don't know why they try with the ginger sword autist.
>>142624907
I agree with you generally, but I actually wish less VNs were voiced. Outside of Umineko I find it better to imagine the voices. That way the budget can go into something more worthwhile than hiring overrated VAs.
>>142622878
The thing many don't get about Zero is that many of the characters are pretty much manchildren. Take Kerry for example. He's dark & edgy enough for 12 year olds to enjoy but in actuality, he's just as childish on the inside. The LN's Prologue's first words are:
"Let us tell the story of a certain man.
The tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and was driven to despair by them.
The dream of that man was pure.
His wish was for everyone in this world to be happy; that was all that he asked for.
It is a childish ideal that all young boys grow attached to at least once, one that they abandon once they grow accustomed to the mercilessness of reality.
Any happiness requires a sacrifice, something all children learn when they become adults.
But, that man was different.
Maybe he was just the most foolish of all. Maybe he was broken somewhere. Or maybe, he might have been of the kind we call 'Saints', entrusted with God's will. One that common people cannot understand."
It admits how childish Kerry's ideals are. Unlike Shirou who either didn't have them challenged too much, had them challenged & adopted a healthier version of those ideals, or flat out abandoned those ideals for his (worm-filled) loved ones, Kerry fell apart when his ideals were challenged. He's an adult but just as childish as the rest, especially for thinking that a magical Grail will solve everything.
>>142624667
There are multiple routes in the game where nothing happens with another heroine. You should not be angry if the heroines get with other men. Rin fucking marries another dude after dating a bunch in a route for fuck's sake.
NTR only happens if you insert as the fuck.
>>142624711
You don't have to shoehorn scenes that forces Saber into being a girl. Even Nasu admitted as such.
>>142624716
>>142624759
You two are very rare.
>>142624760
>so shit as a magus and SUCH A SUPER NICE GUY THAT PROTECTS WOMMINS.
Secret superpower that borders on being Muh True Magic
Those fucking shitty one-liners and that endurance to defeat stronger enemies
All dem tits and asses you fuck hard and make love to
I mean, man, harem shonen protag insert right there.
>>142624794
You don't have to be the same as a character to insert as said character. You just have to believe "some" of their principles. Most people insert to live vicariously through the characters to fuck Saber/Rin/Rider/Sakura/Caren.
>>142624760
>Not liking and wanting Shirou in his purest form
Nani?
Who's looking forward to the Heaven's Feel movies:
> DICK WORMS
> Tohsaka's Anus
> Mapo Tofu
> More Priest
> All those fights getting animated
> Uncensored movies
> Soundtrack by Yuki Kajiura
> Miura isn't directing them
>>142625160
Kotomine: "You will succeed. You will you every skill at your disposal and make every necessary sacrifice to achieve your goal, and you will succeed. Because at this moment, you are Emiya Kiritsugu" [Insert maniacal evil overlord cackle]
>>142625072
>Rin fucking marries another dude after dating a bunch in a route for fuck's sake
This doesn't bother me though. Shirou and Rin were not in a relationship in HF, so why should anyone be annoyed that she went on to live her life?
>Secret superpower that borders on being Muh True Magic
>Those fucking shitty one-liners and that endurance to defeat stronger enemies
>All dem tits and asses you fuck hard and make love to
How in any way are these measurements to prove insertion? Fighting indicates self insertion? Quips indicate self insertion? Sexuality indicates self insertion?
I would like to see your thesis on this.
>>142625072
>Most people insert to live vicariously through the characters to fuck Saber/Rin/Rider/Sakura/Caren
Given how little the focus is on sex, I find that odd.
>>142624870
>Cept for the bad ends where you get killed or mind-wiped.
You can't use this as an excuse. Tohno Shiki gets killed in bad ends and he's an insert.
>Or maybe, just maybe, VN and LN are made with different outlooks in mind? Hmmm.
Yeah, VB buyer base are otaku that wants to fuck women, so they design insert stories to "fuck" women.
LN are slightly different, but even more so in multiple perspective stories like Zero. You can still have insert level harem stories from LNs (a lot of harem anime are based on LNs like that).
>What about the obvious rape going on with Shinji and Medsua. Or Shinji and Sakura? And what about Rin NTR-ing Saber? C'mon anon! Two wrongs don't make a right.
No. I mean, if some story has Rin getting with another man, or, Saber getting with Merlin.
The latter, I've read a lot of backlash when GoA detailed that Saber and Merlin loved each other. Came out the insert faggots saying they don't really love each other, because they feel threatened that "their" haremette actually loves another man.
Same when Diarmuid came out, though a lot of people try to hide it with his chivalryshit (while not hating chivalryshit Saber at the same time). But a pattern between the two developments exist.
>>142624957
My proof is reading so many Fate threads and seeing you inserts react so violently to being told what you are doing. While at the same time, you call your laughable Tsukihime counterparts as worshiping an insert, you all don't notice that you're just the same as the Tohno Shikifags.
>>142625072
>Rin fucking marries another dude after dating a bunch
Wh-when is this
>>142625353
Any route that isn't UBW
>>142624957
I'm waiting.
Prove to me that first person perspective, as a narrative format, implies self insertion.
Second person does. That's the one where "you" are in the story. First person is "I", and allows for the reader to get personal insight into a character.
>>142625072
I and everyone I know self insert as Waver.
![hyouka-02.mkv_snapshot_16.50_[2012.07.25_13.43.08].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/bTuiiQ6.jpg "hyouka-02.mkv_snapshot_16.50_[2012.07.25_13.43.08].jpg")
>>142625072
>You don't have to shoehorn scenes that forces Saber into being a girl. Even Nasu admitted as such.
Except Zero had this multiple times throughout the novels. And Urobuchi writes Saber like she's a high school sempai that turned down his pitiful love letters. In fact, Nasa at least admits he wrote Saber wrong, and made amends for that in Grand Order. Urobuchi goes on about how HE thinks Saber should be done, and fucks her character up completely.
>Muh chivalry
>Muh failed kingdom
>Muh I'm a horrible King
>Muh I don't deserve anything I worked hard as hell to get and strode for
>Muh you men are so much better, please talk down to me more. Help me understand how much of a worthless wommenz I am.
But go ahead. Keep acting like a smug faggot for thinking Nasu hating turning King Arthur into a girl and then regretting it slipping into his work is any better than what Urobuchi did, thinking he did it better.
>>142625386
When was this ever stated in Fate or HF?
>>142625340
>My proof is reading so many Fate threads and seeing you inserts react so violently to being told what you are doing. While at the same time, you call your laughable Tsukihime counterparts as worshiping an insert, you all don't notice that you're just the same as the Tohno Shikifags.
So purely anecdotal evidence based off other people disagreeing with your sweeping generalizations.
Can I ask, are you all there in the head? Are you just a tiny bit on the spectrum? I'm not trying to offend, it's just that's not how you make arguments.
>>142625227
>This doesn't bother
There are people who are bothered badly by it.
>How in any way are these measurements to prove insertion?
No, read what the fuck I replied to. The post I replied to literally implied that you could not possibly insert into a character that is a failure.
Then I just showed that dumb fuck how utterly successful that character is.
Strong, gets to fuck lotsa women, lucky as shit. Wow, just like almost a lot of other insert characters!
>>142625286
You have sex with the heroines several times throughout the games, man.
>>142625432
I wonder if there is a list of the inconsistencies between FSN and FZ
>>142625474
>There are people who are bothered badly by it.
Who? Again, you just pull things out of your ass.
You have vague, and completely slanted definitions of what you're trying to argue.
>>142625448
I've been participating in Fate threads since /tm/ was still a thing. These are things that can be easily observed. Granted, I only noticed these when I read Fate fans bashing Tsukihime fans for their Tohno Shiki worship.
But then, I noticed, "Wait, don't they do the same in Fate?"
And since then, it became all too clear. Fate fans that insert were just as deluded as their Tsukihime counterparts.
