I'm going real honest here. I liked Shinji's character. He shows his weaknesses, but that's because he's human. Not some shonen asspull character. So tell me /a/, why do you take a fat load of shit on him?
Because he's a sissy.
Plenty of people here like Shinji. /a/ is not one person. Lurk more.
>>139016065
Shinji is literally the greatest protagonist in anime history. So good that thousands of shows afterward tried to copy him and failed miserably.
>>139016326
>Yukki
>Tatsumi
>Simon(but got it right)
>...
/a/ help me complete the list
He's the anti-beowulf, he's the weakest person possible.
>>139016065
He has no real reason to be as weak as he is when everything has been handed to him on a silver platter.
>>139017757Just like Anon
>>139016065
He forces you to self-insert in a way that leaves you butt-hurt.
>>139016065
He has all these hot women in his life and he chose a faggot angel that he knew FOR ONE DAY
because i'm asuka irl and i have to shit on him while secretly wishing he would stranglerape me
>>139021365
You're a transvestite?
>>139016065
Shinji is the one you mostly likely are or were when you watched eva and then you start evolving into Misato.
That's why Eva is genius
>>139021616
that armpitservice
>>139016065
I would like to put a different kind of fat load on him, if you know what I mean
Only thing I didn't like about him was when he jerked off Asuka's comatose body.
I mean, the cunt deserved it but it felt out of character for him and they didn't really go into it much again. Harp 'well he's fucked up isn't he??' all you want, that's the worse justification i've ever heard.
>>139023371
asuka liked it anyway
>>139023392
did she? I thought she made a half reference to it during the Instrumentality scene and implied it was negative?
>>139023419
Nah, she just said, if he just wants to jerk off to her, he can go fuck himself, that he has to want her completely instead of just sexually, otherwise she wouldn't want him.
So the jerking off part wasn't directly the negative aspect. Just a extreme situation of showing the actual negative aspect
>>139016065
That's why I feel Ichigo is so under appreciated. He isn't a typical dumbass Shonen MC (he actually tries in school and states he doesn't wanna fail at life, so he actually puts in effort.) He thinks Rukia is lying when she first explains soul reapers to him, where as Naruto, Goku, and Luffy etc. would be ecstatic and soaking it all up. When Tsukishima changed his families memory around, he actually got so freaked out that he broke down because he couldn't do anything to help. He also showed clear signs of depression throughout the stories progression. Not to mention, it's stated he fights with a "brute like" fighting style, because throughout the series he was a 15 year old taking life as it came at him. He's quite a realistic character to some degree and just like with Shinji, they get shit for no reason. Ichigo grew up in a world where shit was normal until out of no where, this soul reaper appears and now he can see spirits and guys who can destroy cities. Whereas Luffy and Naruto's goals are a normal everyday way of life.
>>139016065
Not everyone in /a/ hates him. He's actually my favourite character in Eva.
Shinji is a lame fucking twink. If you act like Shinji you are an autist.
>>139016065
/a/ used to, but for the most part has really backed off as more and more people actually watch the fucking show.
/m/ is still really bad at spouting memes and disproven talking points like "lel shinji need to get in the fucking robot!" Even though he did. Without fail. He whined and complained and and shown to be genuinely scared of the "robot," he still got in the fucking thing and did his fucking job. And shit like "lel he need Bright Slap!" Which is completely ignoring the fact that Bright Slap™ never did anything but make the situation worse for Amuro.
>>139016065
Why do I take a shit on his character?
Because he knows for a fact there are giant monsters fucking up cities, he is one of a handful of people able to pilot giant robots, but because he has family issues like the rest of the world does, he breaks down at every turn for no reason at all, even when his life is on the line.
>>139026196
>no reason at all
he is depressed.
>>139025586
Ichigo's problem is, that he has so little panel time out of the fights, no one remembers his character from the beginning. Bleach is just so dragged on, that any characterization is lost.
That and Kubo made him very simple. He's basically a high school student, who's strong and wants to use that strength. The rest follows from his experience.
>>139025586
all that shit except not failing at school also applies to yusuke, which is fitting considering bleach is just a cheap yu yu hakusho clone
Who fucking cares.
What about eva at this point hasn't been discussed on /a/ at least a thousand times?
Nobody cares about your opinion op, you're a stupid fucking faggot.
>>139021541
this and the toilet meme really have to stop
>>139026055
The 3 pillots represent different shades and personalities of people in the autism specter, someone with autism or aspie syndrom will most likely relate to at least one of the pilots.
>>139026222
I was majorly depressed when I was a teenager too.
Shinji is a fucking exaggeration in concentrate.
>>139025586
I think Naruto was okay in the first episodes. He actually had a sad character, being a funny dumbassat school to hide his loneliness and all that. They just kinda lost it in making that his normal personality even when he wasn't lonely anymore.
>>139026196
Lets kill your mother and have your father abandon you to a random professor.
Later on lets make your father call you just to fight a fucking alien without any combat instruction and pretty much ignore you after it.
No reason to break down at all.
Fuck Marry Kill
>>139026578
Fuck Rei
Marry Misato
Kill Asuka
>>139026394
Fuck yeah, get me in one of those giant robots, I have some issues to work out and ripping city stomping monsters to bits is the way to fucking do it.
Then when all that shit is said and done, then I can make papa gendo into a red smear on the bottom of my eva's foot.
>>139026625
You wouldn't be able to kill Gendo, takes like 5 seconds for NERV to shutdown your synchronization completely.
If you did... congratz! Now good luck surviving with both NERV and Seele on your ass.
>>139026625
Well. He did want to smash his father into a red smear on the bottom of his eva's foot.
Because he's badly written
>>139026710
5 seconds shinji didn't capitalize on when he was busy making petulant threats instead of just punching through the fucking glass.
Anyone with an ounce of anger in them again the person that fucked over their life would not just sit back and make petty threats after he just forced you to crush your friend.
>>139026712
This was better, since he was actually attempting to do so, instead of just sitting int he hangar for no reason.
>>139026774
Not really. If you're not a complete retard, you'll think of the consequences and try to not make your life even worse if anything.
Because a lot of people who like Eva are either retarded waifufags or normalfags with no empathy.
>>139016065
Same could be said about Asuka.
Not about Rei though, she's weird and only autists can relate to her.
>>139026774
In the manga it's even better. In the hangar, Shinji threatens but, ultimately, gets his Eva shut down and LCL compression shot all the way up. Later on, he actually attempts to punch his father, only being stopped by Kaji holding him down.
Much more fitting to his character in every way, in my opinion. Make note that, while I liked that "stomping on NERV HQ" scene, it really doesn't fit. For starters, how did they even let the Eva get there? Shouldn't it have gone straight to the hangar afterwards (or just stay deactivated at the scene of the fight for a bit)?
>>139026811
No, if I'm depressed and enraged as much as shinji should have been, he would have raised a middle finger to the consequences and killed gendo the first moment he could after the unit 4 incident.
That's what I am getting at, Shinji is an exaggeration of being depressed, instead of actually getting angry beyond one time, he just goes back to his piss and moaning routine until the next angel comes along.
>>139016065
baka shinji
>>139026900
You're an exaggeration of being retarded.
Being depressed and angsty doesnt make you want to throw away your life just to kill part of what ruined it. Specially not for a 14 y/o who still has much to live.
>>139016065
>no shonen asspulls
Like piloting Eva on his first try?
>>139026984
Just keep watching anon.
>>139026984
He didn't pilot Eva on his first try, though :^)
>>139026984
He failed terribly at it.
Then the part of her mother soul that was merged with Unit-01 woke up and fought while Shinji was in coma.
Biggest shounen asspull was Asuka fight in EoE, and honestly i loved it.
>>139026962
But Shinji literally does that when the soldiers invade nerv h.q.
he just sits there as they point a gun to his head. At what point does he not have enough anger to lash out at someone who made him nearly kill his friend atop of neglecting him and using him for years for risk of ruining the rest of his life, but become so done with life soon after that he will allow himself to be killed without reason or a fight?
Also, nice personal attack, really gives credit to your argument, bub.
>>139027064
He was done with life because he killed someone he liked, he didn't see a point to living if he saw himself becoming a monster.
>>139027169
Who was an angel he knew for a day.
Yet nearly killing jockstrap/asuka thanks to gendo is such a totally different scenario, there is no reason why he would react in any coherent fashion between the two events, right?
>>139027046
How is it an asspull?
>>139027223
In one he was mad at someone who took the liberty of taking over his actions. In the other he just hated his own guts because he had no other reasonable choice and he hated himself for that.
>>139016065
People not liking Shinji is a shitty meme perpetuated by crossboarders.
Shinji is a legitimately fantastic protagonist.
I heard somewhere that Anno wanted to depict what actual 14 year old kids would behave like in a situation like Shinji's.
My problem with Shinji is that he's not what a typical 14 year old would act like. A 14 year old would fuck Misaki and yearn to fight in a giant fucking robot.
>>139027230
Beating 9 Evas alone under five minutes after beating a military squad after being nuked.
I understand that she mastered the AT field after realizing her mother spirit was severed into Unit-02 and she always wanted to protect her, but its still kind of an asspull.
>>139026578
Hatefuck Asuka
Ignore Misato
Kill Rei (since there's plenty more where she came from anyway)
Marry best girl
>>139027300
So he was explicitly used to nearly kill a friend even as he begged his father to stop. But that's not enough to make him forgo all consequences to kill the man responsible for all of his anger and sadness in his life.
But killing an angel, which he only knew for a day, one single day, who was actively trying to initiate second impact and ending all life as they knew it is enough to send him into spiraling suicidal depression?
Yeah, I'm staying by my point, Shinji is a terribly written character that has no emotions besides being a sadsack.
>>139027333
It's not an asspull, just typical Eva stuff.
You know how powerful the AT field is.
If anything, the fake lance that took her out was an asspull.
>>139027408
You don't seem to be reading what I'm writing. When his father took over and smashed his friend, Shinji got fucking mad. He threatened everyone because of that/actually attempted to hurt his father, but failed. He DID try his best to act on his rage.
When he killed Kaworu, he killed a being that was accepting Shinji for who he wasand he knew him for longer than just a dayHe felt like shit because he was forced to kill with his own hands the one person who didn't give him shit. Why would he go on a frenzied state of rage afterwards? He pretty much gave up on everything at that point.
But whatever. I'm pretty sure this is just b8 and I'm biting it like a retard.
>>139027589
He still killed a god damn angel that was trying to end all human life, I wouldn't give a fuck if kaworu took shinji's virginity the night before, that shit puts a damper on any feelings shinji should have about feeling guilty. Yeah, get sad the guy you liked almost stabbed you in the back, but going suicidal over it? Hell no.
And that's on top of that one, single time Shinji gets pissed, threatens gendo, gets stopped and then drops the subject like it never happened? that's shitty writing for sure.
>>139016065
He is a classical greek anti-hero.
He is on that level of characterization.
we call him a pussy and shit on him but many of us consider him one of the best protags in Anime.
>>139016065
I couldn't get into the this show back when I was a normalfag and tried watching it with friends, and it was mostly because I thought Shinji was a fucking faggot. It was only after I embraced my inner neet that I gave it another go, and much to my surprise, I found Shinji really relatable and really loved the show.
>>139017757
that is a valid argument
>>139017826
So is this . it was very much one of the points the story was trying to come across
>>139023371
But that's the best part.
>>139026897
Shinji tore free of something that clamped over the pylons, at least. Who knows, it's not like shafts for the rails they used to lift Evas to the surface were ever visible, those things just don't exist from the outside.
>>139027941
That's not valid at all. How can you say Shinji is privileged when he's being humanity last stand while receiving no genuine love ?
>>139021365
Same with her. giant bitch. Still my waifu all this yearsand masturbate constantly with raping her tenderly
>>139026260
Yu Yu is overrated, it's actually a horrible story other than Sensui's character/development and the fights.
>>139027730
>And that's on top of that one, single time Shinji gets pissed, threatens gendo, gets stopped and then drops the subject like it never happened? that's shitty writing for sure.
I'm glad you were not in charge of writing the series. You're not sane at all if you think that killing the person you hate will settle the problem. Nobody does that, except psychopaths.
>>139016065
It's fucking weird. To offer you a parallel, I watched this anime a while back called Sakurasou No Pet No Kanojo or some shit along those lines. I did not in any way find the character annoying because I believe that whatever he felt I could fucking understand it.
The problem I had with Shinji (I thought Shinji was a great character, but when I look back in retrospect, which probably makes my latest opinion weak because it's based off of vague memories, I get frustrated with the character.)
Here's the thing that I have. I'm not saying that Shinji is unrealistic, just... not the typical kind of person that you'd see. The actions that he takes afterwards something happens, he just fucking doesn't push through. It's all very "on instant"... as if everything else up to that point didn't fucking mean anything to him.
I don't think Neon Genesis Evangelion is a bad anime by anime by any shot, I fucking enjoyed that shit and at the time of me watching it, could get behind Shinji. It's just that people look way hard into it and they made it more complex that what it really is.
And fucking hell, I stood up and clapped the moment they showed everyone on the moon.
I stood up and clapped when he fucking jacked it off.
I made it a point to go over and rewatch the series that I've already seen later on in the future. Looking forward to watching this again.
>>139028035
>genuine
point was that he could never receive "genuine" love because he didn't love himself in the first place.
People tried to love him. he was just too self- absorbed in his angst.
>>139028009
Oh, right. Didn't remember that. I only watched the rebuild once and didn't care to go over it once again.
>>139027350
> Marry best girl
You....unwashed swine. What the fuck is wrong with you.
>>139016615
Simon actually stepped up to the plate. Yeah, he fucking got it right. But Shinji didn't have Kamina.
>>139026578
zcan i do a fuck/marry/rape instead?
>>139028200
People not realizing TTGL was super inspired by NGE and that while NGE attempted to deconstruct the "super robot" genre, TTGL was a reconstruction.
>>139028289
memeconstruction*
>>139026351
He really was fine up until the point where his father almost killed his friend using 01
>>139028256
only if you rape her after killing
>>139028167
Fuck me what I wrote was a pile of horseshit. Totally didn't present the idea properly + with added bonus of grammar mistakes. Sorry /a/.
I liked Shinji. He was insecure and in need of the approval of others to the point that he tried to withdraw a few times.
But thats also why I liked Misato so much because she kept Shinji from withdrawing
>>139026578
Fuck Asuka
Marry Misato
Kill Rei
>>139028314
Then no. I want her to be my pet slave.
>>139028289
It's a power trip. Fucking spirals and shit. I get that. I mean what fucking series with robots post NGE hasn't been inspired by NGE? I'm a big moron, senpai, but not that big of a moron.
>>139028166
Which is what shinji is, have you not been paying attention to what I have been saying this entire time?
the shitty writing makes him go from a kid with actual issues he should fly off the handle about to a screaming, pissing, screeching bitch that cries about how life is unfair before going limp and waiting for death.
To be very honest, I guess it's more of a personal issue with the narrative that I have. I'd love to fucking know why he acts the way he does after he loses his shit and shows some strength. This actually deserves some extra dialogue from the protag that other animes seem to always have but in this case it's actually necessary.
>>139028547
And more importantly where the fuck was Shinji's rendition of Fly me to the Moon? Fucking loved listening to the OP and Closing. Classics.
I hate Shinji because at his core, he's just a brat. Throughout Eva you either feel bad for Shinji for being forced into the situation, or you hate him because he won't accept the situation.
Sure he has depression and an inferiority complex and everything else in the book that might result in him being snobbish, but if there was no Eva, and Shinji was just some normal kid (Like the alt reality) he'd still be a whiny brat and that's why I can't stand him.
>>139028511
saying shinji is a psychopath doesn't make his presented character a psychopath
>>139028763
That was one of the points of the series.
The 3 pilots are all brats, 14 y/o brats.
![[2D4U]Neon_Genesis_Evangelion_BD_16[720p_DualAudio](B4634CDA).mkv_snapshot_21.42_[2016.03.13_23.25.37].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/ucFqa4q.jpg "[2D4U]Neon Genesis Evangelion BD 16[720p DualAudio](B4634CDA).mkv snapshot 21.42 [2016.03.13 23.25.37]")
>>139028313
He took 8 episodes to settle in, then he's almost unreasonably okay with a lot for the middle third of the series until everybody else starts cracking up and dying. I really think he could have recovered from anything as long as he had a peer group.
>That old hag is no use anymore. That old hag is annoying.
What was the most emotional scene for you in the series? For me it was Asuka epiphany about her mother soul being severed into Unit-02.
>I don't want to die, I don't want to die, I don't want to die, I don't want to die. I DON'T WANT TO DIE!
>>139029010
What was young Rei's deal anyway?
She's so vastly different from the other Rei clones. I always saw it as her inheriting more of Yui because she was the first or maybe being younger causes a higher influence, but has their been an official reason why she's different?
I liked Shinji. He was kinda anti-heroish. Like he would withdraw & shut down. It's frustrating to watch, but interesting.
For example, in the End of Eva he did shit for a good portion of Asuka's fight. He didn't even go out there to help her until it was way too late. Most protagonists would have jumped out there to help/save her, but not Shinji. Granted he was scared, but that was a real asshole & selfish move on his part. I feel that was what made him unique as a character.
>>139029155
I dont remember. everything about evangelion left me an emotional wreck that left me close to comatose autist for years. is just one big blur of angsting on what i had done for the past 14 years of my life.
only for it to waste another 14 years trying to process this fucking anime that didnt meant anything in the first place...
...FUCK YOU ANNO
>>139029155
The mind rape.
>>139029234
He couldn't enter in the Eva though. He did not try much but still.
Eva has probably the best cast of characters. They are not really like characters, but more like real humans. With every rewatch, I notice new things about them. They all have amazing character development.
Shinji, Rei and Misato have the best character development in the series.
Gendou, Ritsuko, Asuka, Fuyutsuki and to a lesser extent Kaiji, Naoko, Kaworu, Toji and Yui all have really good character development, even if some of their motives are revealed a bit late.
The kids from school, Seele guys, Asuka's mom, Maya, Makoto and Shigeru (Although they are an interesting freudian trio and a human counterpart to the Magi) have the least character development.
I think that the characters are so good, because Anno has aspergers and all of his characters are really personal. Eva is not about the story, it's about characters and anyone who understands psychology, autism and aspergers, will appreciate Eva even more.
>>139029200
>Rei I was definitely a creepy little girl, especially because her resemblance to the late, lamented Yui Ikari was much more pronounced at that stage. Practically everything about her made alarm bells go off in Dr. Naoko Akagi's head, and that's one of the reasons why she killed Rei I..
You are pretty much correct. That and being grown in a lab she couldnt develop socially enough to know the impact saying something like that would cause. After all she was just repeating Gendo words.
>>139021616
no, misato's on the asuka spectrum.
shinjis evolve into gendos or run away.
>>139027730
>Yeah, get sad the guy you liked almost stabbed you in the back, but going suicidal over it? Hell no.
That varies from person to person. Some people will take the stabbing in the back from someone they gave trust to and even liked in a more light way, but some may take it to heart just like in the case of Shinji, so he took it as a massive blow to his self esteem which made him suicidal.
>>139029155
In EoE, in that scene where Shinji asks Asuka for help and she tells him off. He goes on a tantrum and then chokes her. Either that or his hallucinations while inside Leliel.
>>139028763
>he won't accept the situation.
He does this by episode 6, though.
I finished this series yesterday and feel like rewatching them already ;-;
Did anyone ever do this? Could they rewatch it entirely or got burnt out?
Is the English dub any good?
>>139030936
The first few episodes of the dub are really flat. From my recollections, ADV got the episodes two at a time so they didn't have the character's entire motivations when trying to express them, so the first few episodes have characters acting a lot different than they should. It gets better as the show goes.
I would also say dub Asuka is better than sub Asuka just because of actual German being added.
EoE dub is shit though. Manga Entertainment did that one and they recasted a lot of the supporting characters with new VAs that were absolute trash. The parts with the pilots and Misato are fine, but anything involving the bridge bunnies is terrible at best.
How did Evangelion influence anime?
How was anime before Eva, and how was it after
>>139031698
It created a period in anime called "Post Evangelion"
Recommend
https://youtu.be/dZFFXLswp8Q
>>139032716
TL;DW
Anime industry was declining but Ghost in the Shell and NGE revived it.
NGE was so controversial that it influenced anime directors to make shows more artistic and creative instead of commercial.
>>139032716
Go to 2:16
. and 4:05
>>139021365
Shippers should just be mulched.
>>139028051
>waifu
>rape
I wil dox and kill you I fucking swear.
>>139026578
>Fuck
Misato, most experienced milf and will smoke a cig with you afterwards + drinking as foreplay.
>Marry
Asuka, best grill, i just want to cuddle her all day long.
>Kill
Rei,if someone has to die i will kill the one that can be replaced.
>>139030936
I rewatched Eva 6 times. Haven't watched the japanese dub tho, but I tried it out in russian. The russian dub is surprisingly good.
>>139034505
Does Russia actually dub things? Would have never thought.
>>139034690
Why not? Its a huge country and shit.
I should try 1 anime in russian for the luls, wonder if the characters yell cyka blyat or shit like that when they are mad.
>>139026594
/thread
It's already common knowledge that relatablility is what makes /a/ so mad.
>>139016065
Shinji is one of the best characters in anime, no joke.
>>139034764
>Why not? Its a huge country and shit.
I heard its more common to just dub over one voice over the original audio.
And isnt Russia state controlled like China or something. I dont know to be honest.
>>139027020
>>139027021
>>139027046
>could move Eva on his first try with no prior training, plugsuit or bunny ears
Also going berserk makes no sense. Eva kids were in deep shit in almost every angel attack.
>>139016065
i really liked Shinji in the 2.0 movie because he finally had the will to make sacrifices for his desire but 3.0 completely dashed it and turned him back into the fucking beta bitch as he just sits there in the pod
>>139027730
>Kaworu was trying to take humanity's life
Except he wasn't. He could've wrecked everything in take over the earth with his progenitors but be let himself die so Shinji can trigger instrumentality and learn to make friends or something.
>>139034690
>>139034764
Yes, Russia dubs the most popular anime.
And as far as Eva's dub goes, it was really good. While it was a voice over dub, all the actors sounded like the characters and it was well translated (nobody said cuka bljad), almost 1:1 translation.
>>139030113
I know in what im evolving faggot
>>139027730
Kaworu didn't 'betray' Shinji for being an angel. Shinji didn't give a fuck if Kaworu was an angel or not, Shinji was mad that Kaworu didn't tell him he was an angel.
Watch episode 24 again, Shinji doesn't even care if Kaworu killed everyone, even if Misato, Asuka, and Rei's lives and everyone else he knew throughout the whole show are in danger, Shinji doesn't care if it means he can be with Kaworu.
It's only because Kaworu begged him to kill him that Shinji went through with it, had Kaworu actually wanted to destroy everything Shinji would have let him without a care in the world.
This is why Shinji is a shit, he literally would not give a fuck if all these people who care about him and got to know him throughout the show died, all for some random albino kid he knew for a day.
Rei is hella ugly and looks like a toilet seat
>>139026578
Marry Asuka
Fuck Misato
Kill the ugly toilet
>>139016065
Asuka is the best character
>>139035820
>>139035767
Butthurt samefag gtfo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AY27gLWhtM
I nearly came from watching this. How can i watch anime in 60fps outside youtube?
>>139036425
shit I was just about to ask
do any of you guys know what the song is called that plays when the fight just starts? I'm going a little nuts trying to find it it gave me fuckin goosebumps and music rarely does that for medat fucking execution was perfect, surprised I'd taken so long to watch it.
>>139035737
I want all of these posts about Shinji and Kaworu to be bait, but I really think you niggers are just incapable of basic comprehension.
Shinji is depressed to the point of worthlessness and only one being shows him the degree of compassion, understanding, and SELFLESS love he craves. Have you never had a best friend? Never been in love? The timeframe doesn't make it bad writing -- Shinji has never been shown proper affection and when he finally is, it's the only thing he wants, selfishly and above the well-being of the rest of the cast/world.
>>139036479
I understand where he's coming from, but it still doesn't make it right.
He chooses Kaworu over Misato, Asuka, Rei, and everyone in the series who loved and cared for him. He chooses the enemy over his own species and would have let them all die if Kaworu didn't tell him to kill him. And even then Shinji still thought Kaworu should have survived and not him. He literally says to Misato's face at the end of the episode that Kaworu should have survived, which means that everyone like Misato should have died.
How the fuck do you think Misato felt when she heard that? This fucking Shinji kid just chose the same angel who killed Misato's father over her.
Shinji is a fucking shit.
>>139036596
>Asuka
Comatose and practically dead anyways
>Rei
Not Rei as he knows her. His last interaction with her was learning that she had come back to life.
>Misato
Shinji never fully trusts Misato, and the build up trust he had for her has been deteriorating in the last few episodes.
Kaworu really is the only person who shows Shinji unconditional compassion. Shinji's also never been particularly good at thinking about the consequences and implications of the things he wants.
>>139036596
Shinji may be a douchebag, but that doesn't make him a bad character.
Wait what? So Shinji actually sex'd Kaworu????
>>139036945
Only in EoE
>>139036741
It doesn't matter. Shinji was willing to let these three innocent people die for someone he knew for one day. He was fully prepared to do it had Kaworu not commanded him to do otherwise.
This makes him a bad person.
>>139036939
I'm not saying he's a bad character, I'm saying his actions shouldn't be justified just because he's depressed or because he's experienced hardship in his life.
He's a good character, but a bad person, and he shouldn't be respected or justified for what he's done at all.
>>139037095
Yeah, I don't think anyone's going to argue that Shinji was a good person, but his actions were justified from his perspective. You're ignoring how much stress Shinji was under.
can anyone explain me the asuka is a tranvestitte meme?
Rei toilet meme is obvious but i dont get the other one.
>>139037203
No, his actions weren't justified.
It's never justified to wish death upon innocent people in your life.
The argument about stress is bullshit too because Shinji completely abandoned Rei and Misato when they were alone in their times of need to go frolic with some random kid he just met.
He knew Misato was depressed from Kaji, and he still chose to fool around with Kaworu and have the time of his life instead of going home to her.
>>139037300
lots
and lots
of futa pornography
>>139037327
wish death upon =/= fail to properly weigh the consequences of your actions in an emotionally-fucked-up state
>>139037401
You're exaggerating.
Shinji isn't retarded, he knows that everyone will die if he does nothing. Fuck, Kaworu even tells him everyone will die, and Kaworu still has to beg Kaworu to kill him for Shinji to actually do it.
The fact that Shinji even hesitated on the decision proves what kind of person he is.
>>139037327
Did I not already explain how Shinji didn't really trust Misato? He thinks most of the reason she takes care of him is because it's her job.
>>139037482
What are you talking about? If you were asked to kill one of your friends to save a bunch of other people, or even to personally kill a person to save everyone, you would definitely have some trepidation about that decision, no matter how pragmatic you are.
>>139037300
Asuka looks like a man in the show
>>139037563
Kaworu isn't a person, he's an angel. The enemy of mankind.
Whether Shinji doesn't trust Misato or not is irrelevant, the fact that Shinji would throw away all of humanity shows he is irredeemable.
He had fun with Asuka, Misato, and Rei. He had fun with Touji and Kensuke too, and he's willing to throw it all away for Kaworu. He's irredeemable.
>>139023371
Nigga close to dying and seeins some tittites will make you act in strange ways i probably would have done worse tbqh
>>139037095
Honestly, I have to agree here.
If say Kaworu merging with Lilith would destroy all of humanity, but it would allow Shinji to still survive and live with Kaworu, Shinji would accept in a heartbeat. Even if it would mean everyone else in the show would be dead.
Shinji is really selfish and always prioritizes himself and his own desires over others, and the show shows this constantly. I don't think the show ever tries to portray him in a sympathetic light and so we shouldn't be praising his actions, but that makes him all the more a fantastic realistic character.
>>139037660
Alright, so I guess you bought into that bullshit Misato said. Kaworu is a person. He isn't human (Rei isn't either), but he expresses the features unique to personhood, like the ability to communicate with others.
>>139037776
He probably would have done it but would have ended up regretting his actions, much like he does in Instrumentality.
>>139037776
>>139037095
You're both wrong, because you're inserting your own hypothetical to back up your statement.
>>139026578
Fuck misato
Kill the bule haired bitch
Marry best girl asuka
>>139037327
>He knew Misato was depressed from Kaji, and he still chose to fool around with Kaworu and have the time of his life instead of going home to her.
It's not a childs job to comfort his caretaker, though. Misato shouldn't even have taken him in considering she seemed to have like zero idea about what it means to be someones guardian.
>>139037865
By arguing that Kaworu is a person, you would have to argue that Sachiel and Ramiel are people too.
You can't define someone a person just because they look like a person.
And I have no doubt in my mind that he would not regret his actions, Shinji rejected instrumentality because there was neither good nor bad in it, but with Kaworu it's all good (before he reveals himself an angel at least).
>>139037887
EoE shows Shinji holds little value for humanity, if you didn't already get the impression with NGE.
The hypothetical just furthers what is already proven by the show.
>>139027316
This i would have been perving real hard on asuka and piloting the eva with a boner every single time
How many times has /a/ had this thread? Its probably over 500 times.
>>139016065
There are as many people that hate Shinji/Asuka/Rei/Misato etc for their less desirable traits as there are those that appreciate them.
You aren't special for liking him and if people don't care for him due to his flaws or other reasons those are perfectly valid opinions.
>>139038023
>EoE shows Shinji holds little value for humanity, if you didn't already get the impression with NGE.
>The hypothetical just furthers what is already proven by the show.
If the show proved your hypothetical, it wouldn't be a hypothetical.
At any rate, your hypothetical doesn't have any value in or outside itself, save for fanfiction.
>>139038023
>Sachiel and Ramiel are people too.
Anon, they are. Angels are just humanity in a different form.
>>139037327
In EoE he also turned everyone into tang because he was butthurt and ran to help Asuka because no one else was left. He's a shitty person.
>>139027316
Yes, most 14 years olds would love to be child soldiers risking their life and would be totally comfortable with having only one parental figure who tries to fuck them
>>139038114
In fact, humans are the 18th angel.
>>139016065
I hate every single character in evangelion. All of them just want to ruin eachother and I hate watching that group of monsters interact.
>>139038114
>>139038023
>>139037865
>>139037776
>>139037660
Doesn't matter whether or not Kaworu is a "person". He's the enemy of mankind and has chosen to be that himself. The angels are living, breathing entities of varying intelligence, they can all communicate in some form or another.
Problem is, they're hostile.
>>139026962
Yes it does, dumbass
>>139026351
Not everyone feels the same way you do.
>>139038270
Im pretty sure at some point in the series they say two different angel species can't coexist, altough its never explained why.
I assume its some "DNA voice" kind of crap telling them to kill the other races.
>>139038291
No, being a psycopath makes you do that.
I've been depressed and angsty and know a lot of people who felt that too and none of them murdered anyone.
>>139038162
I would so theres that....
>>139038270
This if a hostile sentient being tries to kill fuck it and kill it with fucking fire if a normal human tries to kill me i have no problem acting out in self denfense less so for another species or entity
>>139038430
but Shinji wasn't an edgy killer he was a depressed teen who basically thought "why should I save the world if I'm just going to be miserable"
>>139038443
Not everyone feels that way. I would be bothered by killing someone in self defense, though I would be completely justified in doing so.
>>139038534
Then its obvious that EVA would be entirely different if the main character had an actual sense of self preservation and slight concern for others
>>139038605
Of course it would be.
>>139028065
No, everything after Toguro is horrible.
I always thought about how the humans could completely destroy the angels and how many of them actually existed and if there was any real way of stopping them also never understood where they really came from
>>139033997
Waifu rape is fine as long as it's consensual.
Kinoko Nasu, co-founder of Type-Moon, author Tsukihime and Fate/stay night.
>Overall, the cause was because of watching the first episode of Neon Genesis Evangelion, which can't have been ignored by neither I nor my contemporaries. The story goes back to my high school days, where I met Takeuchi-kun. At the time I announced that I will become a novelist in the future, and Takeuchi-kun said he will become a manga artist, this was like the plot of some popular manga, and in reality we talked to each other quite a bit. Thinking back on it now, it was pretty embarrassing (laughs). Since then, we both graduated from college, Takeuchi-kun went to work at a game company, and I found a local job. I had the casual goal of "finding some time to write a novel," and I didn't notice my dream was slowly being buried while I lived idly as the day by day. Neon Genesis Evangelion was what gave me a big push in the back... or should I say kicked me and sent me flying. Not even the first episode itself, I felt my brain had been smacked hard after just watching the opening theme. My heart thought, how can someone think to bring the PV (Promotion Video) method to anime? How ideas can be expressed so freely in anime? "If there are people in this world who are so ahead of the rest, what am I still being confused about?" My heart was severely shocked. I supposed Eva has the charm and enthusiasm that makes people think "I have to do something." I'm sure of it. Instead of idly saying "when I have time next time," I should at least write something.
>>139026578
Marry Asuka
Fuck Misato in the ass while she cries about her daddy issues
Kill Rei and use her corpse to do kinky weird shit with Asuka when we get bored
>>139038112
Do you know how to read?
I said the hypothetical proves the same thing that the show does, not that the show proves the hypothetical.
But considering you like Rei "fanwank" Ayanami, there's little value to come out of interaction with you.
>>139038270
This.
And that's why Shinji is a fucking shit.
>>139029842
>Shinji and Misato have the best character development in the series.
Fixed that for you, Rei does not belong in the ranks of Shinji and Misato. She's hardly a better character than Maya.
>>139039157
>I said the hypothetical proves the same thing that the show does, not that the show proves the hypothetical.
Logically equivalent. Do you know anything at all?
>>139039204
Kaworu is a fucking shit. Shinji's OK.
>>139039252
>>139039157
Oh boy, looks like we've got an irrational Rei-hater here.
>>139038430
No, it doesn't you retard. There's a thing called revenge. And it wouldn't be unexpected for Shinji to kill his asshole father at any point of the series.
>>139039260
>Logically equivalent.
Not at all. Go back to preschool.
Shinji is a shit for choosing that shit over every other character in the show.
>>139039252
Hm? I think he's quite right, Shinji, Rei and Misato has the top tier development. That you clearly exaggerate by putting Rei among Maya undermines you.
>>139039317
I don't hate Rei, but it's clear that any "depth" on her part is reliant on how much the fans want to fanwank about her.
She's not a good character and proves that Anno can only make magic when he has personal investment in something; see characters he actually likes like Misato.
>>139039367
It is logically equivalent, but as I said, it was false.
Shinji didn't choose "that shit" over anyone else. He killed "that shit". He felt bad about it, but he killed "that shit".
Come on every Otaku should love Shinji. Because we are all white scrawny pussies.
>>139039403
Rei doesn't have any development besides for what you yourself imagine as the fan.
To put her side by side with actual well-thought characters like Shinji and Misato is an embarrassment to those characters.
>>139039429
>I don't hate Rei, but it's clear that any "depth" on her part is reliant on how much the fans want to fanwank about her.
You're thinking of Asuka or Kaworu, not Rei.
Rei, Shinji and Misato are the character with the clearest character development in the anime, with actual courses of change and meaningful conclusions to them as human representations.
While it's true that Anno is more liable to spend time on characters he likes, it doesn't guarantee a good character. See the Rebuilds or Asuka in NGE, he spent a lot of time including Asuka but it didn't result in as good as a character as the three earlier mentioned.
>>139039474
See above. It doesn't take any imagining to see what Rei concludes with, using her own rationale and words in eps 23, 24 and 25, or EoE.
>>139038916
Then it's not rape retard. Asuka is my waifu and I'd passionately love her but I wouldn't call it rape.
>>139039449
Shinji chose that shit over everyone else all throughout the episode.
He went to Kaworu instead of Misato when she was depressed over Kaji.
He went to Kaworu instead of helping Rei who Shinji abandoned in her biggest time of need.
He went to Kaworu over any other person that was currently struggling.
And he was ready to allow everyone to die had Kaworu not commanded Shinji to kill him, and even after Shinji killed him he still regretted his choice.
He told Misato right in front of her face that Kaworu should have survived over him, that the murderer of her father should have survived, even if that meant her, Rei, and everyone else he ever knew would die.
Shinji is a fucking shit who doesn't care about any of the people who took care of him and tried to help him throughout the entire show. He's a good character, but none of his actions should be justified. Not at all.
>>139039549
Stop degrading Shinji and Misato. They have actual scenes of fleshing out and development beyond saying a few vague phrases every couple of episodes.
How ironic that you bring up Asuka when she has entire episodes dedicated to the depiction of her character when all Rei has is a cameo of her in similar positions and with similar dialogue every couple of episodes.
Rei is the prime example of what a character acts like when the creator has no idea what to do with them. False depth.
>>139039575
>Shinji chose that shit over everyone else all throughout the episode.
Not really.
Shinji had fell out with those people for various reasons. IN episode 24 he's pondering what to do about it, and admits to himself that he either lacks the courage to face Rei, or any point to see Asuka who can't do anything. She can't even speka.
He went to Kaworu because he's desperate.
In the end he kills Kaworu.
He's not a fucking shit, he's a messed up kid for sure, but not exactly a little shit. I don't expect grown people to make the right choices in those situations nor do I expect a traumatized, terrorized and frightened child.
>>139039558
I'm thinking rape like in The Fountainhead, where the girl is outwardly resisting to maintain her dignity but you have such a deep connection with her you know she actually desperately wants it and just can't let herself give it up willingly. Lovingly knowing pseudo-rape is where it's at.
If life were an ocean and people were boats sailing it, Shinji would be a cork, going where the current takes him.
Not in a charming drifter way, in an indicisive weak person way. He hardly takes any meaningful action in any direction without /significant/ influence from the outside. Any person with even vague desires or goals would act more than Shinji.
>>139039671
>They have actual scenes of fleshing out and development beyond saying a few vague phrases every couple of episodes.
So does Rei. I fail to see how you're angry about this, unless you weren't just a Rei-hater.
>How ironic that you bring up Asuka when she has entire episodes dedicated to the depiction of her character when all Rei has is a cameo of her in similar positions and with similar dialogue every couple of episodes.
Rei also has entire episodes or even monologues dedicate to her.
We're not debating screentime, but character. If we're debating screentime, then it goes in the following order:
Shinji > Misato > Asuka > Rei > nearly everyone > Kaworu > the rest
Shortened down somewhat, but that's how it is for screentime. Not counting OP's and ED's of course.
>Rei is the prime example of what a character acts like when the creator has no idea what to do with them. False depth.
I don't think you know what you're talking about. Rei has her character arc, which stands clearly stronger than everyone else not mentioned on that other Anon's list. There's nothing false about Rei's development here, and so far you've repeated yourself but not really given any arguments as to why.
>>139039704
>Not really.
Yes really.
Whether he fell out with those people or not doesn't matter.
The fact that he even hesitated against killing everyone, everyone that is part of his own species makes him a shit.
To consider killing people for his own selfishness makes him an absolute shit.
He abandoned Rei when she needed him most, he ran away from her just because she's a little different. He abandoned Misato when she was crying over Kaji.
Either of them could have gotten killed and he wouldn't have been there to help him.
His killing of Kaworu only happened because Kaworu told him to kill him, and even then look at how much he hesitated. And then he has the fucking audacity to say Kaworu should have lived over him, TO MISATO!
He's saying that Misato and everyone should have fucking died, right to her face.
A shit. Being traumatized or desperate doesn't matter, he's not a good person and no amount of depression will change that.
He's irresponsible, selfish, and has no value or care for humanity and the people who cared for him.
>>139039846
I want to see what show you watched where Rei can stand by Misato and Shinji, or even Asuka with the same character. Because it certainly wasn't Eva.
>Rei also has entire episodes or even monologues dedicate to her.
She has no episodes dedicated to her and she has one monologue. Which goes exactly into my point, all she has is vague phrases of dialogue. That's not a character, that's an empty shell of a speech-box to put in something cool by the creator.
Rei was a background prop that Anno turned to when he had nothing left to write about, and it was the laziest thing in the entire fucking show.
>>139039881
>Whether he fell out with those people or not doesn't matter.
It does, because if he's fallen out with them or has other reasons to not visit them, you can't say he's doing for no other reason than to be a shit.
I consider this part of the argument to be over as it's not up for debate that Shinji did the right thing, as he clearly didn't, but rather that there weren't emotional and circumstantial factors that excuses his actions as to be expected of any other person in that same situation.
While killing Kaworu is an acceptable solution that solves many things, it was arguably not the best one.
>>139039575
>
His actions should not be justified that is true, but Kaworu deceived him into believing that
Kaworu knew Shinji weakness was and that weakness are feelings which he never experienced,
Kawrou used that weakness to gain Shinji trust so Shinji would doubt whether to stop his plans or not.
That is why Shinji went to him, because Shinji had trust in him, Shinji thought that Kaworu liked him not because he wanted him to do something for him but he thought Kaworu liked him for the person he is.
But Kaworu knew that Shinji still had trust in him and Kaworu thought he could trick Shinji again by saying that he should kill him even though he thought that if he told Shinji to do that, he won't do it because he knew that Shinji trusted him the most.
The only reason why Shinji said his actions were wrong was because he didn't understand why would Kaworu out of all people would do this, making him think that he is the monster.
Shinji actions could not be justified, but he was deceived and by that making him blind.
>>139039881
>he ran away from her just because she's a little different.
Anon, Rei CAME BACK FROM THE DEAD. He's freaked out by that, and for good reason. Don't underplay shit for your benefit.
>He abandoned Misato when she was crying over Kaji.
Yes, because she had propositioned him for sex earlier. He was extremely uncomfortable around her after that.
>>139040064
I would argue that killing Kaworu is the only solution in the situation, but that doesn't mean it is a pleasant solution.
>>139040064
>you can't say he's doing for no other reason than to be a shit
If you hadn't barged into the conversation half-way through and actually bothered to read my previous posts, then you'd know I say he's a shit for his very reasons to not visit them: his own selfishness.
>as it's not up for debate that Shinji did the right thing, as he clearly didn't
That was my whole argument you fucking idiot. Why respond at all if you don't even know what the topic of conversation is?
Shinji cannot be justified in this situation, and never will be.
If you had read the conversation from the beginning, you would know this.
I'm not surprised that you're a waifufag, a shallow interest in Eva will only result in shallow posts about Eva.
>>139040019
>I want to see what show you watched where Rei can stand by Misato and Shinji, or even Asuka with the same character. Because it certainly wasn't Eva.
I don't see an argument in this. Just misplaced anger.
>She has no episodes dedicated to her and she has one monologue.
>she has one monologue
She has several actually considering the later episodes, but we remember the "one" in episode 14 due to how early it is and how it's not part of the common introspection brought on from instrumentality. She does have episodes that are Rei-centric, with her name in the title and all.
So your point remains unsubstantiated, and so far you've only moved the goalposts, and I suspect you'll keep on moving them until you go off on some other tangent rather than conceding. Both you and I know that you're wrong here.
There is a lack of concrete criticism of Rei's character in all of your posts so far, all you've had so far is hostility. That is to say, faked indignation that insults Rei or made up allegeations of Rei's character that doesn't involve the material found in the show, but rather the concept around it. If there's anything vague here anon, is is your post.
Evangelion clearly depicts Rei as a depressed, downtrodden and confused character with severe social ignorance who defines herself anew, reconsideres her relationships and ultimately acts on what she's learned. This is a very, very powerful character that more than anything puts her in the top three of Evangelion characters.
>>139039776
I don't know man, seems shifty. I've always been a moralfag with sexual stuff anyway.
>>139040203
>Shinji cannot be justified in this situation, and never will be.
"Justified" just means having a reason for your actions, which Shinji does. They make sense for him.
>>139040124
>His actions should not be justified that is true
So in other words, you prove my side of the argument correct.
The rest of your post is just fanwank about Kaworu that is never shown or hinted in the episode.
Kaworu doesn't have enough character to show his motivation or purpose either way in the episode, and it has no involvement on Shinji not being a good person, because we already see this from his character before the episode in question.
We can't even say that Kaworu tried to deceive him because Shinji wasn't even strong enough to stop Kaworu when he went at full power.
>>139040199
>Rei CAME BACK FROM THE DEAD. He's freaked out by that, and for good reason.
Excuses. Shinji was supposed to be Rei's friend and he abandoned her the minute he could.
It shows he gives absolutely no value or care for her to run away and ignore her the second he learns something about her he doesn't like.
It shows how shallow and cruel Shinji is, to completely drop Rei and their entire relationship especially when she needs it most, and then to GO TO SOMEONE ELSE THE VERY NEXT DAY!
Shinji is a fucking shit.
>>139040332
Not at all.
If someone barges into your room right now and murders you because they don't like your sweater, they are not justified. They have a reason, but the murder is not justified.
Same with Shinji.
>>139040199
>I would argue that killing Kaworu is the only solution in the situation, but that doesn't mean it is a pleasant solution.
There was the option of coexistence, of using Kaworu to his own ends and using him as a tool for defense. Perhaps long-term that could be problematic, as Kaworu is more or less mentally retarded and too volatile to function as an ally.
Which is why I say that killing him is more than acceptable considering the risks of not doing it. So good on Shinji for setting out to do it, even though it no doubt was hard for him - he did the right thing here, or at least, a right thing.
>>139040203
>If you hadn't barged into the conversation half-way through and actually bothered to read my previous posts, then you'd know I say he's a shit for his very reasons to not visit them: his own selfishness.
Your indignation of receiving a response in a public discussion forum aside, Shinji's selfishness is as expected for someone put in his situation. It is more accurate to call the situation shit, rather than just Shinji shit in this case.
I'm not arguing that he does the right thing (as in the best possible thing) in not visiting them. I think, that Misato or Rei could have attempted to visit him as well. But they are also too hooped up with their own issues at the moment.
I don't really fault them either, despite knowing full well that they didn't do the best thing.
>That was my whole argument you fucking idiot. Why respond at all if you don't even know what the topic of conversation is?
Because considering your argument and your conclusion, you've clearly come to the wrong conclusion. I'm responding on that basis and always have.
That he's a "fucking shit" is going overboard, and blatantly being ignorant of the characters and setting involved.
>I'm not surprised that you're a waifufag, a shallow interest in Eva will only result in shallow posts about Eva.
I'm confident that I've been less shallow in my argumentation and understanding than you.
>>139040283
>She does have episodes that are Rei-centric, with her name in the title and all.
She doesn't. Her name in the title means nothing when she barely appears in said episodes. Having her "monologue" in the recap episode says leagues about the "character" itself.
She's a joke in comparison to Shinji, Misato, and Asuka.
>This is a very, very powerful character
It can't be a powerful character when all it's done is say vague pieces of dialogue in one minute here and there across the show.
A powerful character is one as expressed in Misato's scene crying over the telephone, or Shinji's scene with his cello, or Asuka's scene screaming at the bathtub.
Rei has none of this and never did.
There's a reason why Anno has no interest in her, it's because he wrote no interest in her. She's the representation of his poor writing and he knows it.
He's embarrassed by her existence.
>>139040124
>>139039575
What he says isn't as unsubstantiated as you think. Kaworu himself says that Shinji's heart is as fragile as glass, which is correct - meaning Kaworu does know Shinji's weakness. Whether he deliberately abused that knowledge or not is another debate, but he knew.
What Kaworu is definitely guilty of however, is of knowingly betraying Shinji and not only that, planning and threatening to destroy all of mankind.
>>139040455
Are you just stupid? If someone you watched die woke up in a hospital room and told you that she was "the third one", would you not be freaked out? Would you seriously be able to confront her after that? I know that I wouldn't.
Also, you're right, I'm using the word justified wrong. But he does have reasons for what he does, and they aren't build exclusively on insanity.
>>139040665
>Kaworu himself says that Shinji's heart is as fragile as glass, which is correct - meaning Kaworu does know Shinji's weakness.
He talks about Shinji's desire for communication despite his fear for getting hurt. I don't see how he could take advantage of a weakness like that.
Whether Kaworu met Shinji or not wouldn't have stopped him from going into central dogma at a time when no one is there, at full power to merge with Lilith.
He didn't need to take any advantage of Shinji to achieve this goal, he had it in the bag.
The fact that SEELE knew Kaworu would fail suggests that Kaworu may have had his own weaknesses and desires that would conflict with joining Lilith.
>>139040798
If she was my friend, I wouldn't just fucking run away and ignore her.
You're not a good person if you do the latter, especially if you do it by hanging out with someone else the next day and not even caring about that person anymore.
Shinji's reasons (excuses) just further prove he is not a good person.
>>139040642
>She doesn't. Her name in the title means nothing when she barely appears in said episodes.
She appears plenty and happens to be the main theme, even for other characters. You simply are without a point here anon.
>Having her "monologue" in the recap episode says leagues about the "character" itself.
>She's a joke in comparison to Shinji, Misato, and Asuka.
Again, there's no argument here. Just wrongly made conclusions and assertions.
>It can't be a powerful character when all it's done is say vague pieces of dialogue in one minute here and there across the show.
There isn't anything vague about it, quite the opposite. Rei's dialogue concerning those issues are direct, and you as the viewer are included directly in her thought process, guiding you to the eventual conclusion.
>A powerful character is one as expressed in Misato's scene crying over the telephone, or Shinji's scene with his cello, or Asuka's scene screaming at the bathtub.
None of that has to do with powerful character. Merely showing screaming, crying or a scene with cello does not create good character or a powerful one. In shonen, characters cry and scream constantly, some commit suicide. But they aren't particularly powerful characters for that reason.
It's about having a consistent context to which the character grows into those moments, and for truly great characters like Rei, beyond them. I mean, if crying over an object is all it takes for you, you should be satisfied when Rei cries over the glasses, or sheds tears in her EVA.
So yet again, you are missing a strong, concrete argument here, and everything you've made can easily be shown to be wrong by simply referring to the scenes in the series which disprove you.
You're not convincing anyone here, anon. Take your misplaced Rei-hatred and get to what actually makes you so angry, your own inadequacy.
>>139040570
The minute you say Shinji's selfishness and disregard for humanity and his peers who he has gotten to know throughout the series is justified, you lose.
Shinji is a shit under all things considered. He is not a good person.
The rest of your post is just not worth my time, you don't even bother to read the argument at hand.
how old are u guys? 13?
>>139040874
I mean, good on you, but I still think he's being reasonable. He doesn't even think Rei is really Rei anymore. He's actively scared of her and I think he has a good reason for that, seeing as she appears to be immortal.
>>139040976
Nice posts. Are you 12?
>>139040818
>He talks about Shinji's desire for communication despite his fear for getting hurt. I don't see how he could take advantage of a weakness like that.
In which case, you'd be terminally autistic and further discussion with you would have to cease right now.
But it's more likely that you're feigning ignorance because you got blown the fuck out with that mention of what happened in the series, so I'll just mention that it makes Shinji a prime target for emotional exploitation and manipulation.
>Whether Kaworu met Shinji or not wouldn't have stopped him from going into central dogma at a time when no one is there, at full power to merge with Lilith.
Yes, because Kaworu isnt' a good guy and would actually try to commit genocide like that. We know this.
However, meeting Shinji would lead him to understand that it's a wrong thing to do, and so trying to do it anyway means he's even worse of a person/being.
>The fact that SEELE knew Kaworu would fail suggests that Kaworu may have had his own weaknesses and desires that would conflict with joining Lilith.
They didn't know, they were merely hoping, which is what SEELE themselves literally explain in ep 24.
Long story short, Kaworu is a fucking shit, Shinji isn't.
>>139040913
>She appears plenty and happens to be the main theme
The main theme of Eva is the hedgehog dilemma.
Rei is a disgrace to this theme as her "character" is a shoddily put together existentialism crisis that is never developed or fleshed out.
> Rei's dialogue concerning those issues are direct
Not at all. Rei's dialogue is the vaguest thing in the series. The monologue proves this.
It can be interpreted in so many different ways that it has no substance at all.
It's just things being said without any meaning or purpose. Just to sound cool by Anno.
>Merely showing screaming, crying or a scene with cello does not create good character or a powerful one.
It does in the context of those characters constantly developing. Something Rei does not have, because all she has is substanceless scenes like randomly crying over glasses. There's no point, and it reeks of amateur writing.
I like that you bring up shonen, because that's probably the best way to describe Rei.
Her "depth" is about as fake and dramatized as your average shonen.
Even a character that shows up half way through the Anime like Asuka makes Rei seem like a waste of screentime.
>>139041125
Wow, you just have no reading comprehension.
>>139041078
>try to commit genocide like that
He'd have to be a person to commit genocide.
Kaworu has no obligation to humanity, Shinji does.
This makes Shinji's actions even worse than Kaworu's considering this, though they are both awful "people".
>>139040941
I just searched my whole post for "justified" and it shows up no results. Anon, you wouldn't be putting words in my mouth now, would you? Because that's low, and it means you lose.
>>139041179
Wow, dumb waifufag proving they're shallow pieces of unwanted shit once again.
>>139041223
You already agreed with me 5 posts ago, any further posts made by you is deflecting the fact that you proved me right in the very same post you entered the conversation.
Next time don't enter the middle of an argument and bother reading the posts above you, okay? Then you don't have to try and get rid of this stingy embarrassment you feel.
>>139041125
>The main theme of Eva is the hedgehog dilemma.
Look, now you're just being stupid. Both you and I were clearly discussing episodes, in which Rei becomes the main theme. The overarching theme is quite obviously unrelated.
>Rei is a disgrace to this theme as her "character" is a shoddily put together existentialism crisis that is never developed or fleshed out.
More developed and fleshed out than non-Shinji characters, so I guess Eva's character are nearly all disgraces then.
>Not at all. Rei's dialogue is the vaguest thing in the series. The monologue proves this.
>It can be interpreted in so many different ways that it has no substance at all.
Anno says that about his entire work in particularly the ending, but that is all beside the point and you're moving goalposts again because you lost the argument.
Rei does in fact have lengthy bits about herself including this monologue, which disproves your claims to the opposite. We're done.
>It does in the context of those characters constantly developing. Something Rei does not have, because all she has is substanceless scenes like randomly crying over glasses. There's no point, and it reeks of amateur writing.
It's not random, as Rei has been associating those glasses with Gendo since the early episodes of NGE, something we've gotten flashback scenes to consider as well. There's quite the substance and meaning in her now breaking glasses she cherished as a connection to Gendo.
>I like that you bring up shonen, because that's probably the best way to describe Rei.
>Her "depth" is about as fake and dramatized as your average shonen.
>Even a character that shows up half way through the Anime like Asuka makes Rei seem like a waste of screentime.
These three lines don't have any argument in them, unfortunately.
You haven't had any arguments that actually work throughout the entire thread anon. It's time to retire.
>>139041183
>He'd have to be a person to commit genocide.
Genocide is the willful murder of an ethnic group of people, and Kaworu's attempt at that qualifies him.
If you're assigning morals to Kaworu, then he has all the obligations everyone else has. Otherwise you're declaring him amoral by nature, which also feeds my point that he's dangerous and "a fucking shit".
Shinji isn't as bad as you put him.
>>139041295
I haven't uttered the word "justified" in any posts concerning this argument whatsoever. Next time, don't show how poor your mental facilities are by demonstrating you can't keep track of a simple back-and-forth argument.
>>139041416
>Both you and I were clearly discussing episodes, in which Rei becomes the main theme
And you and I both know she doesn't.
She's a background prop, and this frustrates you, doesn't it?
>More developed and fleshed out than non-Shinji characters
More fleshed out than characters like Maya, but that's not saying much when Rei herself doesn't have a stable presence in Eva or its themes. She's just, "there".
>Anno says that about his entire work in particularly the ending
He says the ending is up to interpretation, which any author should rightfully say. It's intended to be ambiguous. The problem being the characters involved in the ending are not ambiguous, their development and depiction is very objectively presented in the series.
Rei? Not so much. Her character is only given depth by the audience's fanwanking about her. We have to guess and assume to give her objectivity. It's lazy writing by the author.
Anno also says Rei is popular because she's "mysterious", which further proves my point. The fans make the character, because she herself is not a character.
>We're done.
You can give up if you like, the show still sings a different tune.
>There's quite the substance and meaning
And it's as shallow as any relationship in a shounen. One flashback and we already have half a description of Rei's character. Pathetic, in the words of Asuka.
>>139041566
You didn't have to use the word justified, because you still agreed with me.
You would have known this if you bothered to read the entire conversation instead of butting in the middle.
Just, why? What was the point in doing that? Why intentionally make a fool of yourself?
And now you're too embarrassed to bow out for your mistake, and I'm stuck here licking your ego.
>>139041496
Then you genocide ants every time you walk on grass. You and Kaworu are the same in that regard, except you actually killed and he didn't.
Honestly, I couldn't give less of a shit about Kaworu as he really has no relevance to the argument.
Shinji did what he did and he should be at fault for it. He's a shit, and the show tells this to you constantly, why are you trying to deny it?
It's not like it's the first time we're shown it in the Kaworu episode. We've known it since the very beginning.
Shinji is not supposed to be a good person.
>>139041695
I don't think I've made any mistake here, but you've fucked up twice with your arrogant demand that I said it was "justified". You lose.
>>139035290
no you don't. that's why you're a shinji. you're running away from the truth.
>>139041869
Anon, you can just read the first post you made in response to me.
Stop embarrassing yourself, it's just unsightly.
You and I both know the argument did not rely on the usage of justified or not, and you yourself agreed with my side of the argument in your first post. At least read what you said in the past rather than desperately hanging on for validation.
You made a fool of yourself, get over it. Just use this mistake as warning to not barge into the middle of an argument next time, okay?
>>139041783
>Then you genocide ants every time you walk on grass. You and Kaworu are the same in that regard, except you actually killed and he didn't.
Verily, I'm not. I'm not exterminating the earth's entire ant-population or even trying to do it. Kaworu is.
It's more than simply being part of a different species here.
>Honestly, I couldn't give less of a shit about Kaworu as he really has no relevance to the argument.
He's been part of it since the start. As far as I was part of it. As it stands, Kaworu is a horrid person.
>Shinji did what he did and he should be at fault for it. He's a shit, and the show tells this to you constantly, why are you trying to deny it?
What exactly did he do, and why do you think he's not faulted for it?
All I'm arguing for, and I've done so successfully so far, is that you've severely overstated how much he should be faulted for what he's done. We can assert with ease that he is relatively good when compared to the people surrounding him.
>>139041978
The only thing that's embarrassing is how much damage control you're doing right now. You've gone off the rails crazy showing that you don't have control of yourself or the conversation, that's embarrasing.
The last one to actually be on-topic was me, concerning the actual material to be discussed. Not you who fucked up thinking I said it was justified.
You lose anon.
>>139042007
>We can assert with ease that he is relatively good when compared to the people surrounding him.
It's not about whether he's good in comparison, it's about whether he's objectively good or not by himself. Using comparisons means you're losing the argument.
The show tells us Shinji is not a good person. He is running away from responsibility, he is hurting those around him, he is playing with the lives of humanity due to his own selfish desires.
Shinji actually goes through with exterminating everyone in EoE. Intentionally.
He is not a good person, and saying he should not be faulted is a manchild's words.
Take responsibility for your own actions and grow up. This is something Shinji needs to realize.
>>139042076
Anon, you agreed with me in the very first post you replied with and even admitted to that. You can't turn back time.
Learn from your mistakes and stop being a baby, bow out like a man.
>>139041630
>And you and I both know she doesn't.
>She's a background prop, and this frustrates you, doesn't it?
No, as none of that is true. We have e.g "Rei, beyond her heart" as an early example, where Shinji is pondering Rei, Ritsuko is explaining Rei, and Misato is discussing Rei, and then we have Rei interacting herself of course.
We both know she has, and we both know that Rei being one of the top characters frustrates you. Why is that?
>More fleshed out than characters like Maya, but that's not saying much when Rei herself doesn't have a stable presence in Eva or its themes. She's just, "there".
Well, if she's "just there", that's fairly stable. Rei is one of the characters that's there, from the start. That's Shinji, Rei, and Misato - the three characters the other anon pointed out as the top characters by his judgement. Not a coincidence.
>He says the ending is up to interpretation, which any author should rightfully say. It's intended to be ambiguous. The problem being the characters involved in the ending are not ambiguous, their development and depiction is very objectively presented in the series.
For Shinji, yes. But this again defeats your argument that having room for interpretation is bad. Too bad bitter anon.
>Not so much. Her character is only given depth by the audience's fanwanking about her. We have to guess and assume to give her objectivity. It's lazy writing by the author.
>Anno also says Rei is popular because she's "mysterious", which further proves my point. The fans make the character, because she herself is not a character.
All of this is demonstrably false, you're better off looking at Kaworu or Asuka for that kind of behavior, regardless of what Anno says. We can determine this objectively and factually, by using the original series. Kaworu has no real character and no development, he's there for one episode, so that one is easy. He is pure fanwank.
>>139041630
>>139042269
Asuka on the other hand, has a lot of screentime, but next to no development. She's also such a poor person, that every Asuka fan ignores her character and inserts fanwank. Now that's the actual problem here. Her lack of development and a proper conclusion is what makes her not qualified for the top-tier character status the others got.
Rei has that sort of well-defined, evolving character who also has a proper ending.
>You can give up if you like, the show still sings a different tune.
I've proved otherwise. You're butthurt.
>And it's as shallow as any relationship in a shounen. One flashback and we already have half a description of Rei's character. Pathetic, in the words of Asuka.
There are multiple flashbacks and current developments as well. Concerning Asuka, if you want a character that's based entirely on a flashback, that's Asuka.
It's not shallow because you say so. It happens to be realistic, believable, and fertile for further development, which she got, unlike those other characters not mentioned.
Again, you're still without any argument whatsoever after all of this.
>>139042129
>It's not about whether he's good in comparison, it's about whether he's objectively good or not by himself. Using comparisons means you're losing the argument.
Denying the comparisons means you lose the argument, actually.
Your argument since the start included other people than Shinji himself, and his treatment of them. No argument can be successfully made unless you include those other people as well, thus drawing comparisons and whatnot. You've realized that you lost this one, and deny yourself here.
>The show tells us Shinji is not a good person.
Wrong, show me where it tells you that. You can't.
> He is running away from responsibility, he is hurting those around him, he is playing with the lives of humanity due to his own selfish desires.
He is more often than not, taking responsibility, helping those around him, and being self-sacrificial. One of his problems is that he's too eager to please to get validation, he's a doormat.
>Shinji actually goes through with exterminating everyone in EoE. Intentionally.
Which is clearly after the onset of a severe mental breakdown, and after having witnessed several atrocities.
In this case, Shinji broke. But that's the point, Shinji broke down here, after going through horrors that would make other people break as well. Errant behavior in such a setting is excusable and understandable, but the error of his choices remain just that, an error.
You're the manchild for acting like a manchild, you telling anyone else to grow up is a laugh. Shinji is a fictional character, it's just like a manchild to tell something that literally cant' grow up to grow up.
>>139042269
>We have e.g "Rei, beyond her heart" as an early example
An episode where substanceless words are being transferred between characters. Saying something about Rei does not make her a character, it makes her a prop and a plot device. Which episodes like this establish.
>and we both know that Rei being one of the top characters frustrates you. Why is that?
Honestly I wish Rei could be a top character as it would make for a better show, but unfortunately she remained in the background with nothing but a rushed existentialism crisis arc that had no consistent development and fleshing out to back it up.
I didn't exactly enjoy laughing at pretentious scenes like Rei asking who she is for the one millionth time, these scenes were obviously supposed to be taken seriously and here I was laughing at Anno's poor writing. It would have been a much better experience for me if Rei was a good character.
>Well, if she's "just there", that's fairly stable.
As stable as one of many cicada in the background of an episode.
Shinji and Misato actually make and influence the show, they don't just exist in it like Rei.
>that having room for interpretation is bad
Not at all, but if you have nothing but interpretation you are not a good character. See Rei.
>you're better off looking at Kaworu or Asuka for that kind of behavior
Asuka doesn't need any fanwank to work. She's a developing fleshed out character throughout the entire show. We know everything we need to know about her without fanwank from the audience. Kaworu is just a one-shot character, we don't need to know much about him for him to work.
We cannot say the same for Rei, and that is because of poor writing.
I couldn't care less about your meta on Asukafags, it only screams your own butthurt and blindness to the facts.
>>139042171
>Anon, you agreed with me in the very first post you replied with and even admitted to that. You can't turn back time.
Just like you thought I had said "justified" but didn't, you're wrong about this one too.
Quite clearly, you're too flustered and butthurt to actually hold a decent conversation.
>>139042682
You didn't have to say justified because the argument didn't rely on that. You would have known this if you read the entire conversation from start to finish.
Holding a decent conversation means reading the context of said conversation from the beginning, not poking your head in the middle and making yourself look dumb.
Although I appreciate you agreeing with me in your very first post.
>>139042651
>An episode where substanceless words are being transferred between characters. Saying something about Rei does not make her a character, it makes her a prop and a plot device. Which episodes like this establish.
These words aren't substanceless because you say they are, and you're moving the goalpost yet again - you denied she wasn't part of the episode's theme, and now you've been forced to go back on that, and so you're moving goalposts.
If you haven't caught on, you've already lost every argument you've made so far. Moving the goalposts is just petty.
It's safe to conclude that you're a butthurt Asukafag who can't deal with the fact that Rei is a better character. Too bad.
>>139042767
>Reifag can't see anything but Asuka vs. Rei
Like pottery. Most shallow Evafags I've ever met.
>>139042651
Rei is the better character Anon.
Rei has what Asuka doesn't, a developing character. Your claims that Rei doesn't have that hasn't been based on anything. Let me show you how it's done:
Rei has a developing character because we as the viewers, are being made witnesses to Rei's thoughts, actions and justifications for changing throughout the story. When Rei breaks Gendo's glasses or distrusts Gendo, you know why because Rei has had a moment where she explains why. Even if it is at times as simple as never having been genuinely thankful to him, or if it's more strange like saying she's not letting her die.
So when the end comes, and Rei decides to give Gendo the middle finger, you know why - the development was there in the series. Strong conclusion, meaningful that she rejects her abusive "father" and becomes free.
Asuka does not have such a character, because she lacks that same type of development. Asuka remains Asuka throughout the show, and while her mental state deteriorates, she does not move on and change, even think about changing herself. Her character remains the exact same, and that is part of the reason why Asuka breaks and Rei doesn't.
So when the end comes, and Asuka fights the MP-EVA's, it doesn't have anything to do with her existing development, as it wasn't there. When she's brought back in the final scene, it was instrumentality's doing, and anything related to Asuka was off-screen.
The difference is that Rei's character is objectively on screen and detailed, while Asuka's isn't.
That's why Rei's character pans out with a start, middle and an ending, and Asuka's doesn't. That's why Asuka's ending is more or less just fanwank.
>>139042753
Just like you thought I had said "justified" but didn't, you're wrong about this one too.
Quite clearly, you're too flustered and butthurt to actually hold a decent conversation.
Again, I hold the last on-topic post in this conversation and didn't agree with you. Your dabbling into meta which has been proven wrong already, just shows that you're running away from the argument. You lost.
>>139043011
>Rei has a developing character because we as the viewers must fanwank one for her
>Rei has a developing character based on a scene in a movie that aired two years after the show
>>139043078
Nice strawman there.
>>139043055
I appreciate you agreeing with me in your very first post.
You can stop trying to do damagecontrol now.
This "Rei / Asuka has no development" is so retarded that is literally giving me cancer.
Asuka haters and Rei haters, if you want to ignore the beautiful tragedy NGE is stop trying to give us bullshit.
Both have amazing chardev, both are great characters.
>>139043109
Still being the only one on topic etc...
>>139043179
Used to think that as well, but unfortunately, taking the middle of the road doesn't work long-term. Eventually you'll realize that Asuka fans are too aggressive and downright moronic, to the point that they taint the rest of Evangelion as well.
It's better to be accurate than it is to be willfully wrong because you think it'll end conflict. It doesn't work, it's been tried.
>anyone hating on shinji
do you guys even know what pressure is or are you NEETs for life
>>139043259
You're being no different than Asuka fans in that statement.
>>139043179
Both are good, but Rei is better insofar that she's got a more complete and well-founded character-arc. Asuka has a character that NGE invests heavily in, but in EoE, and NGE's final episodes, Asuka is relegated to plot device and foil rather than completing her character.
You could argue that this is intentional, and it's admitting that someone like Asuka can't actually develop, but must be forced to change through excessive force.
Regardless, NGE didn't use the best of writing to accomplish that for Asuka. Rei has her moment of moving forwards by her own engine, Asuka doesn't.
>>139043259
Evafags are pure cancer too, but I don't hate Eva because of it.
>>139043097
Rei has about as much character as a strawman, actually.
>>139043327
How so?
>>139043322
It's routine for Asuka fans and Kaworu fans to point out how bad Shinji is for various reasons. Asuka fans do it to shield Asuka from criticism, Kaworu fans do it because they imagine Kaworu as an extension of Shinji, where Shinji is the flawed part and Kaworu is the perfect part.
>>139043259
I applaud you for such quality bait.
>Im an Asuka-hater because there are Rei-haters.
>>139043411
>Kaworu as an extension of Shinji, where Shinji is the flawed part and Kaworu is the perfect part.
That's from ANIMA, actually.
>>139042651
>Asukafags projecting THIS hard
Top lel m8. Asukas' character is based on pure fucking fanwank, the entire fanbase has to pretend she isn't an obnoxious little piece of shit that's the worst of all of the pilots. What has happened with Asuka is the greatest betrayal of any character ever, as the entire fandom who professes to LIKE the character, abandons it outright in form of fanfiction.
>>139043411
>How so?
Your primary rationale for disliking Asuka appears to be the fact that you dislike Asuka's fans.
>>139043411
Reread all your posts, all you do is generalize Asuka fans and attack them.
>>139043446
>implying I hate Asuka
I'm saying I used to ignore aggressive Asuka fans. It didn't help.
>>139043483
See above. I don't.
>>139043473
It is, but it's origins aren't relevant, the general behavior is.
>>139043411
I'm a kaworu fan and I don't even bother trying to draw extensions
shinji is perfect in his imperfections, no reason to hate on him
kaworu is just someone I want to be in life
>>139043336
Rei doesn't have anything but some quotes that Anno though sounded smart.
She's only relevant in EoE, but that makes her more of an object not an actual character.
Asuka is an active player in NGE, she has the character where Rei doesn't.
>>139043475
Asuka has a character in NGE.
Rei's character is whatever the fans want it to be.
>>139043497
>>139043535
Asuka != Asuka fans.
Asuka != Evangelion.
Asuka fans can be reliably generalized. If there are any Asuka fans that don't fit the generalization, then where are they? Come out of hiding, please.
>>139043411
>Getting this butthurt because not everyone likes the fictional character you like.
>>139043188
If admitting I'm right is on topic, then sure.
>>139016065
I don't like his character because characters are supposed to change over time. Any good character is changed in the end in some way. In the beginning he's a pussy and in the end he's still a pussy.
>>139043546
Take this guy: >>139043546
for instance.
He's coming out with some very, very obviously wrong views of EoE that can be categorized as outright delusion. That Asuka is an "active player" in EoE is well, very wrong considering she's in a coma-like state for nearly all of the movie's runtime, save for a battle in the middle which she was forcibly put into.
If it's wrong to categorize an Asuka fan as obnoxious like that guy, then you've made it wrong to be right. It's not pretty but Asuka fans are on the by and large, actually this petty.
>>139043587
Hmm... Asuka was my favourite character in NGE, i guess im an Asuka-fan.
Im not the best to gauge myself but i dont think my posts are agressive at all, im not hating on Shinji, Rei or Kaworu at all.
>>139043544
Doesn't Kaworu find Shinji perfect because of his flaws?
>>139043544
I'd still say you're downright dumb in your fandom then. You still require Shinji to be "imperfect", even to a point that's not in thread with the show.
Let's say you meet a person, let's call him A.
A is depressed, lonely and wants nothing but love and comfort, being hurt himself.
You tell this person that you love him, and he believes you, thinking he's found relief at last.
In the next moment, you decide to betray this person and have him kill you when your betrayal fails.
Do you want to be this shitty person? I don't.
>>139043747
You sound like a really butthurt Reifag to me, probably because Rei gets as much screentime as a minor character.
>>139043711
Sure, but at the beggining he was a regular pussy and at the end he was a pussy that wanked to comatose girls.
>>139043770
Let's see your posts, you're probably biased as hell.
>>139043867
If talking about EoE without sugarcoating it for the sake of volatile, aggressive Asuka fans makes you a Reifag, then we are all Reifags or should be.
#jesuisreifag
>>139043856
Shinji is imperfect, humans are imperfect.
Angels are supposed to be perfect by comparison, according to Ritsuko's statements.
In regards to Kaworu, he follows what he thinks he is destined to do, he was never hiding the fact that he was an angel so revealing himself as an angel isn't actually a betrayal.
Why don't Misato and Shinji realize he's an angel in the episode? Ritsuko even tells Misato Kaworu is probably an angel and she still acts surprised when he's revealed to be one.
I don't want to imagine they are actually this stupid.
>>139043903
I refuse to believe this is not bait. You're saying someone is biased for liking Asuka character most?
>>139043958
>#anything
Alright, you need to go back to wherever the hell you came from.
>>139043867
Considering you ignored my entire post and what it said and countered with an unrelated insult, I take it that you're a butthurt Asukafag instead.
>>139043986
Humans are angels too, the 18th angel lilin.
>>139043958
If talking about EoE without sugarcoating we know for a fact Asuka is superior to Rei, because we don't need to rely on the movie for Asuka to have a developing and fleshed out character.
>>139043711
>Shinji didn't change over time
Did you even finish the series anon?
>>139044048
Lilith angels and Adam angels are supposed to be different.
At least physically, maybe not emotionally.
>>139043986
>Shinji is imperfect, humans are imperfect.
>Angels are supposed to be perfect by comparison, according to Ritsuko's statements.
No one is supposed to be "perfect" or anything, not even according to Ritsuko. Don't confuse powerful or immortal with perfect.
Anyway my point stands, your fundamental view is that he needs to be imperfect, as in he can't do anything right.
>In regards to Kaworu, he follows what he thinks he is destined to do, he was never hiding the fact that he was an angel so revealing himself as an angel isn't actually a betrayal.
This is too dumb. Read up on a lie by omission. Betrayals work precisely because you don't reveal who you really are.
>Why don't Misato and Shinji realize he's an angel in the episode?
Because they don't know he could be. They are suspicious.
Honestly the only one who is stupid here is you.
>>139043994
I'm sceptical to what you said. I'm allowed to be sceptical, and it's reasonable that only seeing your posts could determine if you weren't full of shit or not.
>>139043473
Sauce?
>>139044049
Asuka is even worse without EoE though, and Rei still remains good. Reminder that Rei has her development in EoE while Asuka is kaput by episode 22, and is in a coma.
In the meantime, Rei is still developing, fighting and dying, and in episode 25 Rei has her moment in real life, while Asuka is in instrumentality as a case example.
Rei has the actual developed character here.
>>139044177
>your fundamental view is that he needs to be imperfect, as in he can't do anything right.
That's not what imperfect means.
You and I are both imperfect, and that's what makes us human.
That very imperfection is what Kaworu likes about Shinji. I guess in Kaworu's opinion, Shinji is the perfect one.
>Read up on a lie by omission.
He never omits anything actually. He even lets Misato see him talking to himself, he even refers to humans as lilin in front of Shinji.
He never takes any effort to hide who he is.
>Because they don't know he could be. They are suspicious.
Ritsuko tells Misato Kaworu is probably the final angel.
How come Ritsuko could figure it out but Misato couldn't? Why couldn't Shinji?
This kid is fucking weird and they don't question it at all? Even though Ritsuko directly tells Misato? Why does she only act surprised when he actually reveals himself?
If Ritsuko says Kaworu is the final angel, why didn't Misato use the time between when he actually attacks to when Ritsuko revealed the information to prepare for that, to tell Shinji, to tell people and make arrangements?
Why didn't she act on a possible angel threat?
>>139044234
Asuka climax was realizing her mother never abandoned her and mastering the A.T. field after being rejected by everyone for so long and not being able to prove her life is worth.
Just because Rei became this omglolgodlike thing doesnt mean her development as a character is better...
>>139043011
While I do agree with what you're saying, I'm curious: do you consider static characters to be a con? Asuka may not have reached an epiphany the way the other pilots did, but I certainly can't pin her as badly-written because of it.
>>139044195
From the last chapter:
>Excerpt 1
The shape of Shinji
<It’s in Lilin fairy tales as well, isn’t it? Since Lilith was uncontrollable and Eve was completely duped in the story of the snake, why didn’t it also happen to Adam, who was on the other side?>
—What are you talking about, Kaworu-kun?
<Just a fairy tale. One that might hide the truth unexpectedly within it…about what Adam cut off.>
—Cut what off?
<The serpent—that is, the evil and sin that is part of Adam. In an attempt to be whole, Adam had cut off the part of himself that was the most human.>
—For what?
<To meet the being that gave him Lilith—he did it with the best of intentions, but it ended up costing his right to do so.>
—To meet…? Who?
<Light… fills.>
>Excerpt 2
Deep inside the mouth opened by Devil’s backbone, he thought he saw his own face, terribly distorted.
—Could it be that I’m the serpent—the human flaw that was cut off from Adam, Kaworu-kun?
<That’s not for you to know as the “you” you are now.> Those concrete words were the first time he heard him not speak in riddles.
<You intend on descending from this time loop as the Shinji-kun you are now, don’t you? Then you should give the right to have that information to the “you” of the new world.>
—You…aren’t going to stop me, are you?
<Haven’t I told you, Shinji-kun? I’m your ally. No matter which one of “you” I meet.>
—Kaworu-kun?
<This is goodbye.> Shinji thought Kaworu might have smiled.
Shinji’s blade glinted, slicing up the body of the Armaros giant from the left arm of its body.
>>139044360
Let me explain it so that you understand. You keep saying that everyone is imperfect, all humans - then what exactly is the meaning of your affection towards Shinji because he's imperfect then? Everyone is, so why is Shinji's imperfection special?
Same goes for Kaworu. This imperfection isn't specical unless - you as a Kaworu fan need to imagine Shinji as worse than he is to make their own framework of shipping and relationships work.
This has been the factual basis of most of the debates here on /a/ for many years now, coming from Kaworu fans, especially after 3.33 where Shinji is made the lynchpin of everything wrong ever.
>He never omits anything actually. He even lets Misato see him talking to himself, he even refers to humans as lilin in front of Shinji.
Misato sneaking up on Kaworu doesn't mean he's letting her, and nor is letting her see him talk to himself revealing anything.
For him to not lie by omission, he would have to say in clear text that he is an Angel, that he is attempting to destroy mankind with his stay at NERV.
Not saying this is taking effort.
>Ritsuko tells Misato Kaworu is probably the final angel.
Only when it's too late, and Ritsuko knows more than Misato having recently been imprisoned with SEELE and had a chat with them.
>This kid is fucking weird and they don't question it at all?
They do question it. A lot in fact. But they've never encountered an Angel that's human in form, Kaworu is disguised as one of them.
Look at how you're blaming Misato for Kaworu's actions here. We're already far off topic.
Kaworu betrayed Shinji, he betrayed the humanity he allegedly cares for, and he committed gross evil upon those closest to him. You want to be that person. I'm not surprised you're lying to me now and being vile about other characters, because that's what Kaworu is.
>>139044234
Being in a coma doesn't mean anything, Asuka still actually has a character.
Rei just has some vague quotes.
EoE doesn't change this.
>>139044658
Vague yet full of meaning. Dont forget she was grown in a laboratory.
There is a reason Rei spawned an entire character archetype.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReiAyanamiExpy
>>139044469
It's not because Rei becomes OGMGODLIKE she's better. It's because Rei develops into such a state by her own hands and actions, and this movement is part of a greater development that's been going on since the beginning of NGE.
To say that Asuka "realizes" something is untruthful, because Asuka doesn't realize anything as much as she is being given that knowledge by someone else. It's not a personal development. It's like giving a failing student the answers to a test.
That student learned nothing, didn't develop, he merely was given a chance to pass the test. In real life he will fail for not knowing what to do, and he'd end up like Asuka - dead.
Cheap plot devices like that are no replacement for real development like Rei, Shinji or Misato has.
>>139044658
>no arguments
>the post
Congratulations.
Honestly, can it really be that Asukafags don't get that they're literally handing the victory to Evafags by making posts like that?
>>139043411
... what? I'm a Kaworu fan (just after Shinji, being him my first one) and I can assure you I don't do that.
>>139044485
I consider it a con when we're discussing the development of these characters. The other anon is making it his case that Asuka did develop in a certain way, and we can show that we didn't.
As far as "bad writing goes", I consider her pseudo-epiphany bad writing, or at least not good for the character.
>>139044627
>Everyone is, so why is Shinji's imperfection special?
It's not. Why does it have to be special? Shinji is you, Shinji is me, because Shinji is so human is he has impact as a character. Because he's not any more special than the audience that watches the show.
This separates him from most other anime that feature a special MC, ripe for self-inserting.
>Misato sneaking up on Kaworu
Misato doesn't sneak up on Kaworu, Kaworu knows she's there from the start.
You'd have to actually lie to lie, and Kaworu never lies about anything regarding himself. He never says he's not an angel, and you'd think he'd take his job more seriously if he wanted to actively prevent NERV from finding out he's an angel. But he clearly doesn't do this if Ritsuko could find out without even meeting him.
>and Ritsuko knows more than Misato
She doesn't. She hasn't even met Kaworu.
>Only when it's too late
Why are you lying? Misato has a full day to act accordingly and she doesn't.
This is the threat of an angel and she knows about it for hours upon hours.
>Look at how you're blaming Misato for Kaworu's actions here
I'm actually questioning why Misato doesn't take action. She has the power to let Shinji know of Ritsuko's suspicions, and she doesn't.
They might have been able to prevent the attack by putting Kaworu in confinement, but she doesn't do anything.
>Kaworu betrayed Shinji, he betrayed the humanity he allegedly cares for
I don't see how Kaworu betrayed humanity. He's not human so he doesn't need to not kill them. In fact considering all humanity has done to him I'm surprised he didn't kill them all. He's a saint for letting them kill him instead.
>You want to be that person
No?
If I wanted to be anyone, I'd want to be Shinji. Only for the chance to be able to save Kaworu, because I'm the only one who can (as Shinji).
>>139044903
It's usual for Kaworu fans to say "I don't do what" when doing it. It's normal for this to happen because people who take Kaworu's character for what it is, aren't usually Kaworu fans.
>>139044792
Notice how every expy is shallow and has no character besides a few personality traits, just like Rei.
Asuka expies have more personality and character by definition.
>>139023419
She was disappointed that his feelings for her manifested as purely sexual desire and not wholesome love.
Is she was going to love him, he had to love her wholely, not just sexually.
>>139045027
Anno, Rei, and Shinji all take Kaworu's character for what it is and they're more or less Kaworu fans.
What you think Kaworu's character is is disproven by the creator of the show and the show itself.
It's also disproven by your own waifu.
>>139045022
>It's not. Why does it have to be special? Shinji is you, Shinji is me, because Shinji is so human is he has impact as a character. Because he's not any more special than the audience that watches the show.
It is, otherwise you'd be an equal fan of everyone else, and Kaworu would have no special relationship with Shinji whatsoever.
>Misato doesn't sneak up on Kaworu, Kaworu knows she's there from the start.
Kaworu knowing she's there or not is completely irrelevant. Misato does in fact sneak up on Kaworu. I can sneak up on you, even if you know I'm coming. That's what Misato did, she drove to some high point and looked at him with binoculars. She was suspicious of him. She didn't get to confirm anything.
>She doesn't. She hasn't even met Kaworu.
Doesn't need to. She can figure from SEELE's play.
>Why are you lying? Misato has a full day to act accordingly and she doesn't.
It's still too late. Misato can't readily believe it, especially coming from Ritsuko at this point. That's why she needs to investigate. You wouldn't believe me if I told someone you knew was "probably" an invading alien. Chances are you wouldn't even investigate like Misato.
It seems to unlikely because at this point, Misato can't see any reason SEELE would do that to them.
>I don't see how Kaworu betrayed humanity. He's not human so he doesn't need to not kill them. In fact considering all humanity has done to him I'm surprised he didn't kill them all. He's a saint for letting them kill him instead.
He betrayed Shinji first and foremost, you forgot that one.
He betrayed humanity because he allegedly cares for them. Either way, he'd be committing genocide, and all of humanity can't be held responsible for what a few of them do. You know it doesn't make sense.
Kaworu is not a saint for acting to destroy them all.
>No
No? So then I assume this isn't you?
>>139043544
>kaworu is just someone I want to be in life
Because that guy,clearly wants to be a retard.
>>139045111
Well now you're just shitposting.
>>139045027
Oh, so now I hate and shit on Shinji even when he's my favourite character since the first time I watched Eva being also a teenager... just because when he appeared I liked Kaworu too? Looks like I do things I never knew I did, thanks for enlighting me, /a/! I guess now I'm a Reifag too and only care about the waifus only because she's my favourite girl just after Misato.
>>139045185
>Anno, Rei, and Shinji all take Kaworu's character for what it is and they're more or less Kaworu fans.
Guess who's not real and who is. What a dumb retort.
>What you think Kaworu's character is is disproven by the creator of the show and the show itself.
>It's also disproven by your own waifu.
How about..... no.
Kaworu's character is right there in the show. We can assess it and make conclusion about it. Anno's opinion and fictional characters opinions of the characters are 100% irrelevant. If you aren't ready to take Kaworu's character for what it is, then I guess you might be a Kaworu fan after all.
>>139045360
You'd be surprised at the people being arrested for a crime who scream "I didn't do it officer".
Why are you different?
>>139045315
>Asukafags
>ever not shitposting
>>139045310
>otherwise you'd be an equal fan of everyone else
I am for the most part, but I think I like Shinji more because more time is given to his character so I developed more of an attachment to him.
>Kaworu would have no special relationship with Shinji whatsoever.
Kaworu could have met with Asuka instead of Shinji in episode 24 and it would have been the same deal, he meets with Shinji because he's the MC and he gets priority.
>Kaworu knowing she's there or not is completely irrelevant
I'd argue it does because if Kaworu really was trying to hide his identity, he wouldn't have been talking out in the open at all like that. Better to not give any reason for her to be suspicious, and yet he gave her plenty.
>It's still too late
A full day is too late? If someone told you your shoe was an angel, the natural response would be to put your shoe in a confined space just in case and then investigate.
More than anything, she should have spoke of this to Gendo or at least Shinji, to be aware if anything else.
But she didn't do anything, especially considering it was Ritsuko of all people who told her this.
>He betrayed humanity because he allegedly cares for them
He cares for them, but that doesn't necessarily take priority over his own goals.
He is not human. From Kaworu's point of view a bunch of bugs killed his children and stuck him in a bug body when he was defenseless for a selfish motive. Anyone would kill the bugs if they could for this, the fact that Kaworu doesn't makes him a saint.
Even moreso when you consider Shinji commits genocide for an even less worthy reason, and he's the human here, not Kaworu.
>No? So then I assume this isn't you?
It's not me, but I see nothing wrong with wanting to be Kaworu. He's a good person and tries to take the time to understand those who have done him wrong, it's a valuable trait that not many people in this world have.
>>139044806
Dude... they didnt just "give her the answers", if that was true why wouldnt her mom make her realize that the very first moment she entered on unit-02?
Anyway it wasnt just understanding that, it was also mastering the A.T. field after trying to be the best pilot and failing repeteadly.
And even if your statement was true it would still be good chardev because it scaled after all the bullshit she had to go on her life and even rambling to unit-02 that it was a puppet for her to control.
>>139045439
I feel bad for Reifags, but I know how they like the character. It's impossible to like Rei in any other way.
If you like Rei, you like the filth because you get cucked.
>>139045384
>Kaworu's character is right there in the show.
Yes, and we can tell he's objectively good.
Shinji and Rei agree and support him.
Characters like Misato who don't support him show hypocrisy. Saying he died for a false hope when he actually died for humanity is rather ironic coming from Misato. But you could also argue she didn't know what he died for.
And then we have the director of the show who knows everything there is to know about every character, and he also makes a similar conclusion on Kaworu as Shinji and Rei did.
This all seals the deal for me, your words are nothing but distant cries in comparison.
>>139045750
>Dude... they didnt just "give her the answers", if that was true why wouldnt her mom make her realize that the very first moment she entered on unit-02?
She does "realize" it only when she enters unit-02. It's not up to Asuka, but it's up to unit-02 whenever she makes contact. Asuka is passive.
>Anyway it wasnt just understanding that, it was also mastering the A.T. field after trying to be the best pilot and failing repeteadly.
Which is quite literally, not developing the character but just giving it what it wanted through magical transfer.
>And even if your statement was true
There's no "if". It is true.
>it would still be good chardev because it scaled after all the bullshit she had to go on her life and even rambling to unit-02 that it was a puppet for her to control.
It's not a good chardev, because it isn't character development at all to begin with.
Nor is it a fitting "reward", because since when should arrogance, mistreatment of others be rewarded?
>>139043411
>Shinji is the flawed part and Kaworu is the perfect part
I could buy that as Shinji's impression of Kaworu immediately before the conflict, but that's retarded from an audience perspective.
>>139045902
Shinji kept saying Kaworu was a better person than him, even after his death, so according to Shinji that is actually a good description of their relationship.
>>139045872
>Rei agree and support him.
Rei doesn't support him. She acts extremely hostile toward him and later actively impedes him.
>>139026897
in both TV and rebuild versions there's like 30+ seconds of technobabble relating to how he has cut off controls from the inside, they can't take control from him and he is free to do as he pleases until the battery runs out
apparently he forgot/didn't know about the lcl pressure controls
>>139045694
>I am for the most part, but I think I like Shinji more because more time is given to his character so I developed more of an attachment
Not exactly what you said at first. I don't buy it, that's a lame excuse.
>Kaworu could have met with Asuka instead of Shinji in episode 24 and it would have been the same deal
Kaworu has probably met with dozens of other people in his life and through this transfer he's been in contact with multiple people. This makes no sense.
>I'd argue it does because if Kaworu really was trying to hide his identity, he wouldn't have been talking out in the open at all like that. Better to not give any reason for her to be suspicious,
He and you for that matter, knows that it's not going to reveal anything. It's already suspicious that he is there.
If he wasn't hiding anything, he'd have told them. Lie by omission.
>A full day is too late? If someone told you your shoe was an angel, the natural response would be to put your shoe in a confined space just in case and then investigate.
No, that would be absolutely insane, and you'd be put in a mental ward for screaming your show was an Angel.
Don't be stupid.
>He cares for them, but that doesn't necessarily take priority over his own goals.
In other words, he doesn't care for them.
>He is not human. From Kaworu's point of view a bunch of bugs killed his children and stuck him in a bug body when he was defenseless for a selfish motive.
So he likens humans to bugs he should just crush wantonly then? Quite clearly, he doesn't care for them.
>It's not me, but I see nothing wrong with wanting to be Kaworu. He's a good person and tries to take the time to understand those who have done him wrong, it's a valuable trait that not many people in this world have.
He's not a good person. He betrays those closests to him and attempts to commit genocide. When his genocide fails, he decides to scar those closest to him.
If you want to be Kaworu, you're a sick, sick person.
>>139046070
Rei absolutely does support him.
The script says she looks sadly at him in sympathy when he smiles at her before his death.
The next episode she argues against Shinji for killing Kaworu.
In EoE, she puts Kaworu in her vagina and has no qualms appearing to Gendo with him and appearing to Shinji with him. They talk side by side to Shinji at the end of instrumentality.
In every side material Rei and Kaworu are described as allies.
I know for a waifufag like yourself, seeing Rei liking a character you personally hate is mortifying, but it's something you need to accept.
Rei is on friendly terms with Kaworu and nothing you imagine will ever change that. You claiming Kaworu is evil or not good is a direct insult to Rei, who has judged him otherwise.
You are insulting Rei, and can't be considered a true fan of her.
>>139045894
Her arrogance was a false persona she used so that she could live on and have chances to prove her life was worth.
Her heart was broken since her mother soul got severed into Unit-02 and since that day she felt like nobody wanted her and her life wasnt worth,
Mastering the A.T. field wasnt a Deus ex Machina move, A.T. field was the power of the heart that prevented others from damaging it. After knowing her mother actually wanted her nothing could break her heart again.
Being a "bad person" doesnt make a character bad. I shouldn't have to say this, it should be obvious for anyone who wants to enjoy fictional stories.
>>139030936
I wouldn't go back to the japanese myself. Takes a couple of episodes for them to settle into the roles.
EOE dub is GOAT. Autists complaining about a few background voices and wordings they don't agree with should kill themselves.
>>139045761
See, look at all that hate. You were no different at all.
>>139045902
It is retarded from an audience perspective, and a character perspective. It's an inappropriate idealism that is fueled by fan-pandering and yaoi fandom.
Kaworu fans will defend it to the death, in the same way they will rag down on Shinji (and other characters) because this very framework demands that they do.
>>139045872
>Yes, and we can tell he's objectively good.
We can tell he's objectively not good. He gains someone's trust and then promptly betrays them without a second thought, with the goal of eradicating an entire species.
>Shinji and Rei agree and support him.
They don't, and even if they did, it wouldn't make Kaworu any less bad.
As it stands, you have imagined that "everyone who doesn't support Kaworu in the show is a hypocrite", which is just telling of extreme Kaworu fanboyism. This isn't rational. You aren't willing to accept that what the character did was bad, even when confronted with the proof.
There is no excuse you can make for Kaworu's betrayal and attempted genocide.
>>139046250
Blech, fanwank. Kaworufags can only fanwank.
>>139046425
I hope you're not confusing this guy with me, the guy posting minimalist wallpapers.
>>139045439
We were talking about a character then you go to a comparison with a crime...?
Anyway, this discussion has reached a point in which no matter what we say, looks like we won't make the other change their mind, we will both lose the time. And I don't feel like arguing more in this thread when I have to be attacked by some elitists doubting my love for a character after more than a decade. Good luck, anon.
Rei looks like a toilet seat
>>139046250
why wouldn't they be? they are the souls of adam and lilith right?
>>139046172
>Not exactly what you said at first.
I don't recall every saying anything on this topic before that post, mind greentexting what I said?
>Kaworu has probably met with dozens of other people
>probably
No, this is fanwank that cannot be proved in the show in any way. Disregarded.
>If he wasn't hiding anything, he'd have told them.
Why tell them he's an angel? Wouldn't that be counterproductive to his goal in merging with Lilith? And it's no lie if he didn't say anything false.
>No, that would be absolutely insane
If Misato has received word that something/someone is an angel, from Ritsuko no less, then to not act on it in the slightest is what is insane.
Furthermore, to be surprised when he actually turns out to be an angel is odd.
The least she could do is warn Shinji.
>In other words, he doesn't care for them.
He does care for them. But not more than his care to merge with Adam. Until, of course, he decides he does care for them more than his desire to merge with Adam.
So yes, he does care for them.
>So he likens humans to bugs he should just crush wantonly then?
He likens humans to humans and doesn't see why he shouldn't crush them. They're on his planet and they killed his children, but Kaworu was sweet and kind enough to let them destroy him instead. What an angel.
>He's not a good person
He's the best in the show. He allows the enemy that has done him wrong to destroy him all because he found love in that very enemy.
Few humans on earth would have the kindness to do what he did.
I don't want to be Kaworu, I want to be with him. But I have no qualms against someone who wants to be him, he has many good qualities so I don't blame them.
>>139046250
>character in the show likes another character
>that means character isn't bad
Your entire line of arguments are invalid. Doesn't matter if Rei is a Kaworu fanboy (she certainly isn't in NGE) in doujins or spinoffs, because Kaworu is Kaworu regardless of what any in-universe character things. This is a character that knowingly attempted to destroy humanity despite having nearly nothing to gain by it, and also betrayed someone he claimed to have loved. That's what makes the character morally questionable.
>>139046341
>Her arrogance was a false persona she used so that she could live on and have chances to prove her life was worth.
Irrelevant.
>Her heart was broken since her mother soul got severed into Unit-02 and since that day she felt like nobody wanted her and her life wasnt worth,
Irrelevant.
>Mastering the A.T. field wasnt a Deus ex Machina move, A.T. field was the power of the heart that prevented others from damaging it. After knowing her mother actually wanted her nothing could break her heart again.
It is a "deus ex machina" move because said "mastering" is only granted through a magical event of external nature. Not through training or progressive skill increase, but like adding a cheat code in a game.
Note that I used deus ex machina in quotes here.
>Being a "bad person" doesnt make a character bad. I shouldn't have to say this, it should be obvious for anyone who wants to enjoy fictional stories.
Irrelevant.
We're not discussing the fact that Asuka is a bad person. We're discussing her character.
>>139046473
Shinji and Rei both treat Kaworu as good in the show, so I'll take their word for it and not the delusions of an angry waifufag.
>>139046623
Adam and Lilith were never meant to be enemies, and I think Kaworu and Rei understood that when they met eachother. As did their support of eachother in the show.
![[CBM]_Neon_Genesis_Evangelion_-_24_-_The_Final_Messenger_[720p]_[9B8461A6].mkv_snapshot_18.11_[2016.03.24_16.45.09].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/WTl1cPe.jpg "[CBM] Neon Genesis Evangelion - 24 - The Final Messenger [720p] [9B8461A6].mkv snapshot 18.11 [2016.03.24 16.45.09]")
>>139046250
Regardless of what the script says, this is how Rei actually looks at Kaworu. This is not the face of an ally.
>>139046592
Because whether they're guilty or not, nearly everyone says he same. "Not guilty".
>Anyway, this discussion has reached a point in which no matter what we say, looks like we won't make the other change their mind, we will both lose the time. And I don't feel like arguing more in this thread when I have to be attacked by some elitists doubting my love for a character after more than a decade. Good luck, anon.
Which is because you can't handle to face the mistakes that you've done. It's natural for someone as weak as you to bugger off. You will not be missed.
>>139046715
>Doesn't matter if Rei is a Kaworu fanboy
She's not a fanboy, per se, but she is on friendly terms with him and this shows everytime they have a scene together.
I'll take her word on who is good in the show and who isn't, and according to her Kaworu is good.
I'm sorry you don't find Rei's judgement of character to be of worth, but I do.
>>139046806
Her eyebrows are arched up, she is melancholic and the script says as much.
Kaworu smiles back at her.
Friendly terms. Kaworu did just show her where her original body was after all.
>>139046802
I meant, why wouldn't they be allies?
>>139046806
it's a stern look, but it's one that makes kaworu realize what is going on and make his decision, that doesn't imply enmity
>>139046715
I dont see any point in this arguement if you're just gonna call facts irrelevant.
If you dont remember you were the one who brought up Asuka being arrogant and a bad person.
PS: I run out of NGE wallpapers.
>>139046964
They are allies, the butthurt Reifag in this thread who hates everyone that isn't Rei just doesn't want them to be.
He has to fanwank and delude himself about many parts of the show, and this is one of them.
>>139046684
>mind greentexting what I said?
>shinji is perfect in his imperfections, no reason to hate on him
and the rest of that post. If that's not you, then fine.
But I still don't buy it.
>No, this is fanwank that cannot be proved in the show in any way. Disregarded.
He's met with SEELE. Not fanwank. He's met with the crew that put him in the test entry plugs, and been assigned quarters and what not by NERV.
What's next, Misato doesn't poop because we never saw her take a dump?
The point remains clear, this character is not believable or credible in his words or appearance.
>If Misato has received word that something/someone is an angel, from Ritsuko no less, then to not act on it in the slightest is what is insane.
Ritsuko is currently arrested for having sabotaged NERV, an arrest Misato made. Trusting her just yet isn't fine. Then she doesn't say with certainty, she says with probability.
No need to kill an innocent kid because of what some crazy lady having a breakdown says.
>He does care for them. But not more than his care to merge with Adam. Until, of course, he decides he does care for them more than his desire to merge with Adam.
>So yes, he does care for them.
>He likens humans to humans and doesn't see why he shouldn't crush them. They're on his planet and they killed his children, but Kaworu was sweet and kind enough to let them destroy him instead. What an angel.
He was going to kill them. In other words, he does not care. This is FINAL.
If he can't see why humans shouldn't be eradicated, then you can't say he cares about them. It's likes saying I care about you, but I don't see why you shouldn't get mugged and shot.
>He's the best in the show. He allows the enemy that has done him wrong to destroy him
The enemy in question has done him nothing wrong. They've even allowed him to live and roam freely, and claimed him to be a god. Shinji has never done him anything wrong either, on a personal level.
Kaworu one of the worst in the show.
Did we watch the same movie? Asuka doesn't win against the eva series. She beats the military but we know evas are capable of doing this. She holds out against the eva series but that could just as well be chalked up the experience.
Eva series - first mission
Asuka - dozens of missions under her belt against more dangerous foes.
And she still loses.
>>139046947
>She's not a fanboy, per se,
Do you NOT understand rhetorical exaggeration? It means that even if she was his greatest fan, it wouldn't matter one bit at all to what we're trying to discuss here. Stop trying to push a point that doesn't matter, and is even false.
>>139047033
Kaworufag, please. You've done all the fanwank in this thread.
>>139046947
>Friendly terms. Kaworu did just show her where her original body was after all.
But Rei already knew that Lilith was in Terminal Dogma, she'd been down there in Unit-00 at least twice before
>>139047026
>I dont see any point in this arguement if you're just gonna call facts irrelevant.
Your facts are irrelevant here. True or not, they don't touch on the argument. That's why I call them irrelevant. They don't mean anything.
>>139047217
Asuka fans generally leave that part out, yeah. She does lose.
>>139046947
>>139046964
I definitely wouldn't call it melancholy. Not hateful but there's a definite air of condescension and even anger. Definitely not much of a sense of sadness or tragedy.
>>139047168
Kaworu didn't know it was lilith until he saw her. Very few people aside from gendo, seele & co knew it wasn't adam. Even triple agent insider kaji thought it was adam.
The implication is that none of the angels had hostile intent, they just wanted to find adam. We see how sachiel basically just brushes off the initial attacks with an inquisitive look of puzzlement. And only gets hostile after almost being rekt by the n2 mine.
It's only after realizing it's lilith, and seeing rei's apparation that kaworu knows what's going on, and wants shinji to kill him.
>>139046947
You're seriously trying to argue that "because Rei likes Kaworu, surely that must mean that everyone else should". You didn't have that work for Shinji, why the fuck would it work for Rei?
This is just going way too far in avoiding to discuss their actual characters. You're inserting fanfiction that Rei likes Kaworu (she doesn't seem to care about him at all in NGE), and to use some sort of authority or popularity fallacy? Because characters like kaworu, he's good?
Rei even knew were Lilith was from beforehand dumbass. You are an ignorant Kaworufag who didn't even watch NGE, just episode 24 otherwise you'd have known this.
>>139016326
Shinji was somewhat based off Noriko though.
>>139047168
>If that's not you
Not me, but what's wrong with that statement?
According to Kaworu, those imperfections make Shinji perfect. Also according to audience members who appreciate Shinji for what he is.
>He's met with the crew...
I honestly doubt he's had any in depth conversation with those NERV members, or even SEELE members. At least not to the extent he's had with Shinji.
We're given no indication of otherwise in the show. That's why it's his interactions with Shinji that change his mindset.
>Then she doesn't say with certainty, she says with probability.
She says おそらく anon.
Misato not taking precautions is irresponsible.
>He was going to kill them
But he so conveniently waited for Shinji and worried when he was late. He absolutely does care.
>If he can't see why humans shouldn't be eradicated, then you can't say he cares about them.
Not in the case of Kaworu. To someone like Kaworu, where death and life are of equal value, it's clear to see why he can't understand why killing humans is such a big deal. That's just part of his nature and upbringing, and it's honestly one of the most fascinating things about him.
>The enemy in question has done him nothing wrong
The enemy in question forced him in human skin, killed all his children, and uses him as a tool for their own will. He even knows he's just a tool in their plans after his talk with SEELE.
>They've even allowed him to live and roam freely
Fanwank. We don't know this.
>Shinji has never done him anything wrong either
He doesn't have to, this is something Kaworu was planning on doing before meeting Shinji. And it was meeting with Shinji that made him change his mind.
If you wouldn't blame Shinji for killing all of humanity because only a few rejected him, then you wouldn't blame Kaworu for NOT killing all of humanity because a few caused him every injustice possible.
Kaworu is probably the biggest saint in the show. Not that he has much competition.
Rei and Shinj agree.
>>139047371
If these facts are irrelevant because you say so your posts are irrelevant.
>>139047217
She did lose but its not like she had the upper hand... She had to fight 9 eva's after fighting a military squad, and during the military squad fight her umbilical cable got removed.
She did destroy every mass produced eva but it turned out all of them had incredible self-regenerative abilities and their own replica of lance of longinus.
>>139047452
>Kaworu didn't know it was lilith until he saw her. Very few people aside from gendo, seele & co knew it wasn't adam. Even triple agent insider kaji thought it was adam.
Because he was going for Adam, to destroy mankind.
>It's only after realizing it's lilith, and seeing rei's apparation that kaworu knows what's going on, and wants shinji to kill him.
It's also the precise moment he knows his plan to destroy mankind will fail.
It's not Adam, it's Lilith, he's surrounded by Rei and EVA01. Lilith's body, EVA01 the clone of Lilith's body, and Lilith herself in human form.
He surrenders at this point, but not before forcing Shinji to kill him, scarring him for good.
Kaworu is not a good person, or Angel-person if you're that ignorant of what person actually means.
>>139047242
Do you not consider Rei's judgement of value?
What's wrong with you?
>>139047355
She didn't know it was Lilith until Kaworu told her of her true nature.
>>139047597
>incredible
They have replica s2 engines right?
>>139047449
The script disagrees with you, so no, she's sad at his death.
And it makes sense considering he told her of her true nature and gave her the tools she needs to flip off Gendo.
No wonder she took him with her in EoE, secure in her vagina.
>>139047626
he can't initiate third impact with adam, only the meeting of adam and lilith can do that
>>139047597
>If these facts are irrelevant because you say so your posts are irrelevant.
They aren't just irrelevant because I say so, no.
They are irrelevant because those facts didn't touch the argument or topic at hand.
That there's x billion insect thingies in burkina faso doesn't mean anything when you're discussing flood rates in the netherlands. In the same way, going on about Asuka's past doesn't touch on her future in EoE.
>>139046806
The Essential Evangelion Chronicles Side B has a chart with the main characters and their relationships, and it paires Rei/Kaworu as teammate/simpathy (I hope that's the english translation, as I have the book in french somewhere in the house).
Though if you're going to reject/ignore storyboards, official interviews with the creator of the series, and now official books with information acting as guides for the series to not contradict your own point of view and analysis of the show, then I don't know what else to tell you, honestly.
>>139047645
>Do you not consider Rei's judgement of value?
>What's wrong with you?
I wonder what's wrong with you if you think using your obviously erroneous vision of a fictional characters "judgment" is a solid argument to make.
>>139047292
You're the same Reifag who bashes Asuka at every opportunity and just brushed off a line in the script that shows Rei has friendly relations with Kaworu.
The one fanwanking here is you, and has been you for a long time.
![tumblr_mfnxs0yauE1qbfz19o1_1280[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/L433gkE.jpg "tumblr mfnxs0yauE1qbfz19o1 1280[1]")
>>139047793
anyone who doesn't appreciate the duality of rei and kaworu has no place calling themselves reifags
>>139047518
Rei is confirmed to consider Kaworu a good person, both in NGE, EoE, and in official supplemental materials.
Shinji thinks similarly.
We already have the episode to tell us Kaworu is a good person, but we have the reactions of these two characters to further prove it.
And then of course the creator's own words too.
Saying Kaworu is evil or anything besides what he is presented to be in the show is an insult to Rei and her judgement.
Surely you cannot consider yourself a Rei fan if you are to continue to degrade Rei like this.
>>139047773
It's a lot better than your fanwank that's for sure.
>>139047900
This Reifag never really liked Rei, he just liked using her as a tool to bash other characters and fans of other characters.
If Rei was real she'd be personally stabbing him with her lance for treating her just like Gendo treated her.
>>139047579
>Not me, but what's wrong with that statement?
>According to Kaworu, those imperfections make Shinji perfect. Also according to audience members who appreciate Shinji for what he is.
It means that you and anyone else sharing that opinion are lying about something. Because you and the other guy established that everyone has these imperfections. Therefore everyone is "perfect" by the same logic.
You clearly have favorites, so you're lying. This isn't the reason you like these characters at all.
>I honestly doubt he's had any in depth conversation with those NERV members, or even SEELE members. At least not to the extent he's had with Shinji.
He's had deeper conversations with SEELE in one scene than with Shinji. He showed no response for them. Face it, he does not care for them. That he does is utter fanwank. What he does is more important than what Kaworufanboy #14123 says on the internet.
>She says おそらく anon.
The translation says "probably". Which is what I said.
>The enemy in question forced him in human skin, killed all his children, and uses him as a tool for their own will. He even knows he's just a tool in their plans after his talk with SEELE.
Letting him roam freely, again. Kaworu doesn't care about "his children", and doesn't even offer a single line directed towards that. It's better to revive him than no to.
>If you wouldn't blame Shinji for killing all of humanity because only a few rejected him, then you wouldn't blame Kaworu for NOT killing all of humanity because a few caused him every injustice possible.
Shinji is doing so passively and after being physically and mentally tortured until he breaks. Kaworu conspires to do that on his own. Kaworu is worse.
>Fanwank. We don't know this.
We know this, because they literally did it in episode 24, letting him live and roam freely.
>Kaworu is probably the biggest saint in the show. Not that he has much competition.
He's the worst, and that's canon.
HERE WE HAVE IT:
>>139047579
>>139047579
>>139047579
>If you wouldn't blame Shinji for killing all of humanity because only a few rejected him, then you wouldn't blame Kaworu for NOT killing all of humanity because a few caused him every injustice possible.
Kaworufags, when confronted with NGE's canon, will inevitably blame Shinji and target him:
>>139047720
That comparation makes no sense at all and she did have important plot points and decisions during the series and not just on her past. Lets see a few examples...
>Trying to befriend Rei and failing.
>Trying to hook up with Kagi and failing
>Seeing Misato and Kagi engage in a relationship.
>Trying to be number one, sometimes she succeded (Example, when they fight the spider looking angel Rei and Shinji had no idea what to do but Asuka quickly made a combat strategy and offered herself for the most dangerous role, and they suceeded). but most of the time this would put her on unnecessary dangerous situations and fail.
>Seeking love in Shinji but failing because he is a major pussy.
>Getting mind raped by the angel (triggering all the flashbacks).
These are just some examples and its already more than what Rei has to offer... Yes, im attacking Rei as a character for the first time because it might be the only way to show you how ignorant you are forcing yourself to be.
No, i dont dislike Rei, she is a great character.
>>139048137
That sentence clearly states that neither should be blamed.
>>139047793
>>139047900
>>139047911
>>139047963
>>139048008
Notice how your Kaworufag arguments boils down to "if a fictional character was real". They aren't, and never will be.
What remains are the facts.
Facts you try to hide with fanwank.
Because pointing out the actualities in NGE only causes you to flee from them, to seek comfort in doujins, other NGE stories and whatnot. We're considering the characters here, not your fanwank as borne from years of consuming pandering goods and material.
>>139048242
I'm just glad you consistently prove how disgusting you are in every thread you appear in, "Reifag".
Your willingness to ignore the canon and even words directly spoken by the director for your own fantasy version of Eva speaks volumes.
But even more disgusting is your audacity to use Rei as a puppet to bash these characters.
Your as awful as Gendo, and Rei would be ashamed in you.
Like Rei, I think I'll give you the middle finger right here. Your hatred and jealousy isn't worth our time.
>>139048208
None of those points actually are relevant, and they aren't correct either. Remember we're discussing her EoE development scene, not plot points in the earlier NGE.
Your only recourse is to attack Rei, because you make a poor guess that I actually care.
To recap, Asuka's development in EoE is not there. Her development is off-screen, if at all there. During the scene with the MP-EVA's, she hasn't developed as a character. She was given a boost from EVA02, that disregards her entire character.
Hypothetically, giving Asuka that same view in episode 7 (the one she's introduced in), would have the same effect. Asuka at that point was still sad for her mama, and seeing her then would also have triggered her in the same way.
Do you now understand how this isn't development? The character has not changed.
It's a static character.
>>139048392
Really, is that all you've got?
At this point, you're the one who's neglected the canon. My post to you was an encouragement to take the character as-is, which you couldn't do.
Your argumentation so far has included making strawmen of fictional characters to say they have an "opinon" on this discussion, which is just sad and delusional. (Not to mention ironic, considering you're accusing me for making puppets out of characters).
I only deal with reality here anon. That only. I deal with what Kaworu did, not what you fanwank a characters opinion of a character to be.
How can I be more clear with you here?
Kaworu did some bad things. Things that aren't morally justifiable. This makes him a bad person.
That's the real Kaworu right there. Not the one you masturbate to in your doujins.
>>139048213
It implicates Shinji because Kaworu can't be defended, by equalizing them. Kaworu fans are vile beasts.
>>139048631
It's not fanwank just because you don't like it.
Face Eva for what it is, not a waifu-intoxicated blasphemy version that you make it out to be.
Attacking fans of a character is all you've got, because you know the actual character is portrayed differently in the show.
>>139048737
It implicates nothing but the fact that neither can be blamed.
>>139046806
It's the face of a toilet
>>139048846
It implicates Shinji because Kaworu can't be defended, by equalizing them. It even goes against the anon's previous statements that one is perfect, and the other isn't.
Vile beast you are.
>>139048793
It's fanwank because it's something you've made up. I've been dealing with concrete citations from the source material. They are undeniable.
You are free to join me at any time.
Kaworu does attempt to destroy mankind.
He does betray Shinji.
All of this when he had no reason to. That do not a good person make.
Whatever you might think apart from that, is fanwank.
>>139048429
Hard to talk about EoE alone when its basically the ending of the series.
>Hypothetically, giving Asuka that same view in episode 7 (the one she's introduced in), would have the same effect. Asuka at that point was still sad for her mama, and seeing her then would also have triggered her in the same way.
First, everything she went through during the series are what triggered the epiphany. As i said if her mom could just tell her the truth she would do it the very first time Asuka enters unit-02.
Second, eating a cookie after not eating for 1 hour doesnt taste as good as eating a cookie after not eating for 4 hours.
Now lets skip the whole movie to the last scene, she gets strangled by Shinji and how does she react? She caresses her face.
Is this irrelevant too?
>>139048892
Both Shinji and Kaworu threaten the entire existence of humanity, despite Shinji going through with it and Kaworu not, under similar circumstances neither can be blamed.
Finding implication where it is not is a clear sign you are mentally insane.
>>139048945
I didn't make up the show, if I did I'd probably have a lot of money.
Anno, the guy who did make up the show, is saying something different than you, so I'll take his word for it.
Kaworu decides to not destroy mankind despite him having every reason to.
He's remembered as a good person to other characters in the show.
>>139049074
>Both Shinji and Kaworu threaten the entire existence of humanity, despite Shinji going through with it and Kaworu not, under similar circumstances neither can be blamed.
>Finding implication where it is not is a clear sign you are mentally insane.
We went from discussing Kaworu alone, to discussing Shinji as well. That was your doing.
You just proved that Kaworufags can't defend Kaworu and need to hound Shinji as well.
>>139049074
>I didn't make up the show, if I did I'd probably have a lot of money.
>Anno, the guy who did make up the show, is saying something different than you, so I'll take his word for it.
In other words, you refuse to assess the actual show and the character.
>Kaworu decides to not destroy mankind despite him having every reason to.
He doesn't decide to not do it, he was intercepted and stopped. He couldn't destroy anything since he got the wrong destination, he got Lilith rather than Adam.
He's bad.
You can't deal with it, so you go outside the show for "opinions" AKA authority fallacies.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority
The argument on whether or not Kaworu is good/bad should be based on Kaworu's character alone, and his actions.
He did a lot of bad, and hurt a lot of people for no good reason. Therefore, he is bad.
>>139048058
>Therefore everyone is "perfect" by the same logic
Well to Kaworu, they probably are.
>He's had deeper conversations with SEELE in one scene than with Shinji.
He hasn't. SEELE only tell him their plan. Shinji and Kaworu have personal discourse. That is the canon show.
>The translation says "probably". Which is what I said.
Which is more than enough reason for Misato to act.
>Kaworu doesn't care..
Fanwank. If he didn't care, he wouldn't attempt to rejoin with Adam.
>Shinji is doing so passively
Shinji directly says everyone should die, and he goes through with it.
Kaworu sacrifices himself, and is able to give Rei the means to stand against Gendo before he goes.
Shinji is no more to blame than any normal teenage boy going through similar circumstances, Kaworu is more saint-like because he goes beyond this and gives himself in trade for the enemy.
He's a saint, and that's canon.
>>139049007
>Hard to talk about EoE alone when its basically the ending of the series.
Asuka's time in EoE is rather limited. There's a few scenes we can discuss.
>First, everything she went through during the series are what triggered the epiphany.
This is not true, because the epiphany is unrelated to what happened to her during the series.
>As i said if her mom could just tell her the truth she would do it the very first time Asuka enters unit-02.
Who says she could? Nothing in the series does.
>Second, eating a cookie after not eating for 1 hour doesnt taste as good as eating a cookie after not eating for 4 hours.
Point being? Not seeing the relevancy.
>Now lets skip the whole movie to the last scene, she gets strangled by Shinji and how does she react? She caresses her face.
>Is this irrelevant too?
YES. The reason why is really, really important and is the crux of this argument, the quality of her development. Because we're talking about character development. We're talking about the process in which a character develops, the reasoning behind it, and the act of it happening.
So while you can see clear mood changes in Asuka, it doesn't mean her character changes. With the MP-series and hat final scene you mentioned, the development is attributed to an external factor. Eva magic.
That's not good character development. We need more.
>>139049120
We can discuss Kaworu by himself or with Shinji, we still come to the objective conclusion that Kaworu is a good person.
>>139049261
>In other words, you refuse to assess the actual show and the character.
I assess both, but according to you both the canon show and characters are fanwank, so I must now go to the director.
Of course, you will be insane enough to deny the director as well.
>he was intercepted and stopped
Fanwank. He allowed Shinji to grab him after waiting numerous times for Shinji to catch up to him. At that point he decided he would trade his life for humanity because they deserve to live over him. In his opinion.
>He couldn't destroy anything since he got the wrong destination
He could destroy everything if he merged with Lilith, but he had no desire to do that.
He only wished for Adam, the side affect of destroying humanity was something he never wanted.
>He's bad.
He's good, Mr. crazy.
>You can't deal with it
I actually can deal with it. So can Shinji, Rei, and Anno.
>should be based on Kaworu's character alone, and his actions
Good thing we can conclude he's good based on these things then.
He is good, and your fanwank sadly cannot hold a candle to the canon show.
To say otherwise is to be insane, a fanwanking waifufag. Which fits you to a T.
>>139049296
>Well to Kaworu, they probably are.
>probably
See, here's the problem.
He doesn't treat them that way. So, it's fanwank that he does.
>He hasn't. SEELE only tell him their plan. Shinji and Kaworu have personal discourse. That is the canon show.
They don't tell him their plan, no. They have a deep conversation concerning Kaworu and who he is, and the nature of mankind's hopes. The canon show has yet again, like all the other times, proven you wrong.
That's what you get for getting your primary info from tumblr!
There's nothing more you can say about this either because you claimed he had no contact with others, which this scene among others definitely show.
>Which is more than enough reason for Misato to act.
Not it was not. She acted by investigating a clue from an unreliable source, she couldn't full well sound an alert and kill a possibly innocent kid.
>Fanwank. If he didn't care, he wouldn't attempt to rejoin with Adam.
Him rejoining with Adam is for his own purpose, and arguably SEELE's who told him it's a smart thing to do. He doesn't offer the fallen Angels even a single thought. This is canon. That he cares is fanwank.
>Shinji is no more to blame than any normal teenage boy going through similar circumstances, Kaworu is more saint-like because he goes beyond this and gives himself in trade for the enemy.
Kaworu made himself the enemy to begin with, and so he is always to blame.
He's a demon, and that's canon.
>>139049463
the point of asuka's final scene is that while shinji had an immediate connection with kaworu, and a slower but meaningful connection with rei, he was never compatible with asuka and was always destined to hurt her
now they are ready to try not hurting each other, you'll just have to imagine the rest
>>139049537
>We can discuss Kaworu by himself or with Shinji, we still come to the objective conclusion that Kaworu is a good person.
So far, we have only proven that he is not.
You only keep replying because you're a gigantic fanboy who can't accept canon. There's been countless, false, ugly and vile accusations from you so far. None of them have worked.
Bringing in Shinji only did one thing, proving that when challenged, kaworufags will drop the pretense of liking this character in an instant.
Im done with this bait. Yes the epiphany was related to all the rejection she went through the series.
She couldn't, thats my point.
Its a metaphor to the rejection and failure she went through the series and finally realizing her mother accepted her.
Im not even gonna talk about the "eva magic" because you refuse to understand what caused the epiphany. The ending is super ambiguous so its also hard to discuss.
>>139049537
>I assess both, but according to you both the canon show and characters are fanwank, so I must now go to the director.
This is logically self-contradicting. If you were actually interested in discovering canon, you'd never rely on the director. You're the one who denies the show here.
If the show was in your favor, you'd have stuck with it and not run to external commentary.
>Fanwank. He allowed Shinji to grab him after waiting numerous times for Shinji to catch up to him. At that point he decided he would trade his life for humanity because they deserve to live over him. In his opinion.
This is fanwank.
Shinji stopped EVA02, and now Kaworu was left defenseless. Kaworu was cornered, and by definition, intercepted by Shinji in EVA01. Shinji caught up and Kaworu who had arrived at a dead end, was intercepted and stopped by Shinji.
This happened.
>He could destroy everything if he merged with Lilith, but he had no desire to do that.
Fanwank.
>He only wished for Adam, the side affect of destroying humanity was something he never wanted.
That's some side-effect. If he never wanted it, he wouldn't have joined with Adam.
Everything proves you wrong here. Only your fanwank keeps you going.
>>139049741
>you'll just have to imagine the rest
yesssss
This is my point.
"You'll have to imagine the rest".
As an existing character, Asuka's character is fundamentally incomplete and poorly finished. Therefore, the fans literally need to imagine the rest or fill in the gaps of this character, meaning that Asuka is the #1 main character for fanwank, fan self-insertion and similar.
>>139049904
canon cannot exist without a canonizer, if that is not the director then who the hell is? some pr guy? no thanks
>>139049676
>He doesn't treat them that way
He actually does. So it'd be fanwank to consider the opposite.
>They have a deep conversation concerning Kaworu and who he is, and the nature of mankind's hopes
Only in regards to their 'plan'. Which is a lie, mind you. The canon show has once again proven you wrong.
>because you claimed he had no contact with others
I actually claimed he did not meet with many people. If you were not crazy, you might remember this.
>she couldn't full well sound an alert and kill a possibly innocent kid
There doesn't need to be any killing, but not doing anything at all is irrational. Ritsuko is the most reliable sources that she could have right now, considering, as you said yourself, because she had spent a lot of time at SEELE.
>im rejoining with Adam is for his own purpose
It's also for his own nature, something he cannot ignore.
To listen to his nature and go for his true form is to respect his fallen children, SEELE themselves tell him this; the angels are the true benefactors of Earth. To do otherwise is to betray the angels, which is what he does. In favor of Shinji.
He cares for both humans and the angels, and this is what causes him to struggle. But he eventually makes the decision that humans should survive despite the injustice they have caused him. And this makes him objectively good.
>Kaworu made himself the enemy to begin with, and so he is always to blame.
No, humans made themselves the enemy by waking Kaworu from Antarctica and trying to use him as a means to get more powerful.
They awoke another race in hopes of selfishly feeding a god complex, and were attacked in reasonable retaliation.
For Kaworu to forgive them for this makes him a saint, and that's canon.
>>139049747
>So far, we have only proven that he is not.
If you're not crazy, the reasonable conclusion is that he is good.
Considering you're crazy, your fanwank is wrong as you do not include what is given in the canon in any of your accusations.
>>139049885
But isn't that my point anon, and hasn't it been the point all the time?
This character is not solid. You admit yourself how ambiguous and undefined this character is in it's final moments. That's the point.
The epiphany you speak of is caused by EVA02. Not Asuka. It was always just a convenient plot device that yes, could have happened in earlier moments of the TV-series but didn't because - it'd be poor character development. That no longer matters in EoE.
Therefore, characters like Shinji, Rei or Misato who have more solid character arcs, and proper conclusions of their own, really do stand as better characters in that regard.
>>139050063
The "canonizer" is the source material itself.
>>139050193
that doesn't make any sense, do you know what a canon is at all?
>>139049747
>Bringing in Shinji only did one thing
It proved that both characters should not be blamed, and established my like for both characters.
This contrasts with your hatred for many characters in the series, you will do anything to bash Asuka whenever you can for example. It's rather disgusting and contrary to what Rei would desire of her "fans".
>>139049904
>If you were actually interested in discovering canon, you'd never rely on the director
I discovered the canon long ago, and found the canon to reveal that Kaworu is indeed a good person. You claim the canon show is fanwank, so now I go to the director. You claim he is fanwank as well, so I must now assume you are crazy.
Logic.
>Shinji stopped EVA02, and now Kaworu was left defenseless
Kaworu wanted him to stop him, and he was actively waiting for him to stop it.
Kaworu was never cornered or at a standstill, he was right where he wanted to be and allowed himself to be caught by Shinji. This is canon and is what happened.
>Fanwank.
Nope, canon. He questions why he has to merge with Lilith if it means the destruction of humanity, and this leaves him with a troubled look on his face.
>If he never wanted it, he wouldn't have joined with Adam.
He wants to join with Adam, not to destroy humanity, he debates whether he should still go through with it despite that, and comes to the conclusion he won't on several factors.
>Only the canon keeps you going.
ftfy, crazy-kun.
>>139050322
I do, you don't.
>>139050147
How can you say thats your point when i am saying that the epiphany couldn't happen earlier ._.
Shinji had a lot of momma deus ex machina scenes too, does that make him a bad character?
The whole ending is ambiguous, not just Asuka.
I could make this reply longer but its not gonna change anything, you're gonna stay bold and ignorant about it anyway.
>>139050147
Rei doesn't have a solid character arc.
Her entire character is a transition from Gendo to Shinji. It's stupid.
>>139050370
then why are you unable to define what is included in the canon and justify it with a source?
>>139050076
>He actually does. So it'd be fanwank to consider the opposite.
Show examples please.
That's right, you have exactly zero.
>Only in regards to their 'plan'. Which is a lie, mind you. The canon show has once again proven you wrong.
Not in regards to their plan. In regards to Kaworu, directly. He's not lying about who he is. Take what Gendo does with Rei for instance, he never told her that she was an Angel or Lilith.
Huge difference.
>I actually claimed he did not meet with many people. If you were not crazy, you might remember this.
You are backtracking still, because you said he had no contact with others. This proves you wrong. You denied that he was meeting anyone whatsoever.
>There doesn't need to be any killing, but not doing anything at all is irrational.
You're fanwanking that she should have done anything but what she did. You lose. She did do something, she started investigating.
Yet again, you're wrong and always will be.
>Ritsuko is the most reliable sources that she could have right now, considering, as you said yourself, because she had spent a lot of time at SEELE.
I said the exact opposite. I said that Ritsuko was unreliable, as she was just caught sabotaging NERV and is now in prison with a grudge against them all. Fully expecting Misato to kill her in the last episode.
>It's also for his own nature, something he cannot ignore.
It's in his nature to be bad. Got it.
>No, humans made themselves the enemy by waking Kaworu from Antarctica and trying to use him as a means to get more powerful.
Nope. Kaworu doesn't need to actually do anything. Merely waking him up does not mean he's their enemy. It was always in his power to do good, and denying that is denying that Kaworu has any free will whatsoever.
He is a shitty person, and that's a canonical fact.
He betrayed Shinji and conspired to destroy humanity.
>>139030936
Asuka's German is 100000x better in the English dub.
>>139050418
The source itself is the source material.
I'm the author of this post: >>139050370
Now, I'm telling you that this post says "You're a faggot". I'm the canonizer and the author of that post.
Tell me, does that post really literally say "You're a faggot" ?
The post itself is the canon. Not what I say about it.
>>139050376
>How can you say thats your point when i am saying that the epiphany couldn't happen earlier ._.
It could happen earlier. There's certainly nothing stopping it from happening.
It's really just Asuka's character that's poorly finished and developed.
>you're gonna stay bold and ignorant about it anyway.
That's you, not me.
Anon, I really want this to happen in next rebuild.
>>139050376
What Shinji does or is doesn't relate to Asuka, now does it? Are you going to argue that Shinji is worse developed than Asuka, or even just as good? Because that's insane.
Asuka's character remains fundamentally incomplete, and her epiphany was the result of a plot device. Even hardcore Asuka fans, and I mean the real Asuka fans not waifufag posers here on /a/, will admit that.
>>139050392
What's stupid is your mis-characterization of the character. All you do by being stupid like this is show that you don't have an argument.
>>139050534
your one-post canon of your works calling me a faggot is strange
the material can't canonize itself. you really have no idea what the word means
question: do you think the book of job is canon? what about the book of enoch? what sets them apart?
do you think splinter of the minds eye is canon? what about the a new hope novel? what sets them apart?
do you think evangelion episode 24 is canon? what about something I found on fanfiction.net? what sets them apart?
>>139050327
>It proved that both characters should not be blamed, and established my like for both characters.
It established that you would throw Shinji under a bus the moment it suited you.
How pathetic. If there is a doujin-version of Kaworu that actually cares about Shinji, he'd be disgusted by you.
>>139050327
>I discovered the canon long ago, and found the canon to reveal that Kaworu is indeed a good person. You claim the canon show is fanwank, so now I go to the director. You claim he is fanwank as well, so I must now assume you are crazy.
>Logic.
Logic where? You didn't even address the canon. More lies from a clearly insane member of the Kaworu fan fanbase.
>Kaworu wanted him to stop him, and he was actively waiting for him to stop it.
Then why didn't he just stop himself? This is retarded. You are retarded, and you're suggesting Kaworu is retarded.
>inb4 he's not responsible for his actions or cant' control them
That'd mean he's not responsible for whatever you find is "good" about him either.
>Kaworu was never cornered or at a standstill, he was right where he wanted to be and allowed himself to be caught by Shinji. This is canon and is what happened.
He was cornered. Literally in the end.
>Nope, canon. He questions why he has to merge with Lilith if it means the destruction of humanity, and this leaves him with a troubled look on his face.
In other words, he was actually going forth with it and had been planning to do so. He was aware that what he was doing would kill them from the start, yet still embarked to do it. Hadn't Shinji stopped him, they'd be dead.
>He wants to join with Adam, not to destroy humanity,
They mean the same thing, and as you admitted earlier:
>He questions why he has to merge with Lilith if it means the destruction of humanity
He knew it would happen.
He is bad, and that's canon.
>>139050738
That they're not part of the same work, obviously.
There are people who will "decide" canon for you, according to their own standards. It was done with the bible, and they threw away vast amounts of religious scripture, redacted it and edited it, into a new canon of it's own.
Disregarding canon to create new canon.
Get it now?
The only source you can ever trust, "the canon", is the work itself. Because the "canonizer" as you put it, can decide to make something un-canon at his own whims. You know that makes no sense.
>>139050456
>Show examples please.
Example 1. His interest in Shinji
Example 2. His hesitation over destroying humanity, his evident struggling over the decision of destroying humanity
Example 3. His decision to sacrifice himself for humanity.
>he never told her that she was an Angel or Lilith
And she never asked.
Kaworu, however, told Rei she was an angel and Lilith.
Thanks to this, Rei was able to get back at Gendo.
>You are backtracking still, because you said he had no contact with others.
I'm doing neither, because I only denied he was meeting with "many people". We only know his relationships with SEELE and Shinji. In fact, we can infer he hasn't had many relationships if only a day with Shinji has become so important to him.
>You're fanwanking that she should have done anything but what she did
It's not fanwanking that she did nothing. Because she actually did nothing.
She received threat of an angel and did nothing in preparation.
>I said that Ritsuko was unreliable
Ritsuko is extremely reliable, since she was with SEELE she herself should know best who Kaworu is. Misato goes to Ritsuko directly for this information, so why does she do nothing with it?
>It's in his nature to be bad.
There's nothing bad about it. It's nature to preserve one's race, there isn't anything bad about that.
>Merely waking him up does not mean he's their enemy
Forcing him into a lilin body and destroying his children means they are his enemy. Taking his body away from him means they are his enemy.
>It was always in his power to do good
And he does. In the beginning, it's perception of good is following his instinct to preserve the angels, and then his perception of good changes to preserving the lilin.
>Kaworu has any free will whatsoever
Kaworu's only free will is deciding if he lives or dies, and under what circumstances he does. He says this directly in the show. That's the irony of him being the angel of free will. He doesn't have much of it.
He's good. It is canon.
>>139050327
>wall of text to defend kaworu's misdeeds
Say what you want. Someone who does evil and doesn't even repent like Kaworu does, can't be said to be a good person by my system of morals, nor any of the prevailing systems of to day.
You can't excuse how he kicked Shinji in the balls, or tried to destroy the humanity he claimed to like. Especially when he had no reason to destroy them in the first place. If he was conflicted, he could have talked it out, but he just set out to do it, disregarding literally every human being around him.
I hate evageeks and their "kaworu is evil" meme, but he's not a good person.
>>139050738
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority
Here you go, the "how to not be an idiot starter-pack".
>>139050762
>saying Shinji should not be blamed is throwing him under the bus
Why are Reifags so crazy?
>>139051178
You're saying he should be blamed on the same level as Kaworu, who actually tried to knowingly destroy mankind.
Why are Kaworufags so crazy?
>>139051021
there was no canon before creation of the canon baka
in case of the bible the canon was created to resolve theological disputes within the church by accepting a certain set of works to the exclusion of others so constituents would not be confused about the narrative of the bible
it was later and as far as I recall first adapted to popular culture by lucasfilm to distinguish between the lucasfilm conception of the story and licensed works and fanworks, so that you would know that lucasfilm was not beholden to works such as splinter of the minds eye or the thrawn trilogy, regardless of how good you thought they were
you can understand then a canon to be a collection of works that a certain author presents as representative of some story they want to tell
in the absence of an explicit canon, you can infer that works produced by that author represent some kind of implicit canon, and works not by that author fall outside it, but it is still not really a "canon", it's only understood to be by the fans
>>139050000
>yesssss
Faggot. With shit opinions to boot. Not that I'm the other anon.
>>139051157
Kaworu does no evil. He's born on Earth and acts accordingly as an angel.
To even fight his instinct, deny his destiny as an angel, and let the humans survive is what makes him a saint.
Shinji, Rei, and even the director Anno confirm this fact.
>You can't excuse how he kicked Shinji in the balls, or tried to destroy the humanity he claimed to like
You can do both because humanity has killed his children, claimed his home as their own, and tried to use him as a tool for their own selfish plans.
He is conflicted, and makes a decision to give humans earth instead.
He is a good person.
>>139051246
Shinji knowingly tries to destroy mankind. He goes through with it, Kaworu does not.
But neither should be blamed.
To say otherwise is to be crazy.
>>139050622
Kill yourself shipper.
>>139051116
>Example 1. His interest in Shinji
>Example 2. His hesitation over destroying humanity, his evident struggling over the decision of destroying humanity
>Example 3. His decision to sacrifice himself for humanity.
Tally: 1 person. Shinji.
You lose. You did not show any examples as to how he treated humans in the same way he treats Shinji.
>And she never asked.
This is a lie by omission. Kaworu is not doing well here.
>Ritsuko is extremely reliable
Wrong, and you're fanwanking that Ritsuko knew Kaworu from SEELE. Just sad, sad Kaworufag. Your favorite is so shallow that you have no recourse but fanwank. Ritsuko is clearly put in a position of distrust, she's literally imprisoned for gods sake.
I bet you only remember the kaworu parts of this episode.
>There's nothing bad about it. It's nature to preserve one's race, there isn't anything bad about that.
I guess I'll be finding Kaworu at his next KKK meet then.
>Forcing him into a lilin body and destroying his children means they are his enemy. Taking his body away from him means they are his enemy.
They gave him a new body, and gave him freedom. Kaworu never cared.
>And he does. In the beginning, it's perception of good is following his instinct to preserve the angels, and then his perception of good changes to preserving the lilin.
By destroying either. Brilliant. Nope.
>Kaworu's only free will is deciding if he lives or dies, and under what circumstances he does. He says this directly in the show. That's the irony of him being the angel of free will. He doesn't have much of it.
Then he could have killed himself at the start instead of threatening to kill mankind and betray Shinji.
Kaworu is bad. It is canon.
>>139051178
>saying Shinji should be blamed to defend Kaworu
Why are Kaworufags so crazy?
>>139051370
>Kaworu does no evil. He's born on Earth and acts accordingly as an angel.
>To even fight his instinct, deny his destiny as an angel, and let the humans survive is what makes him a saint.
>Shinji, Rei, and even the director Anno confirm this fact.
You are literally fanwanking so much now. Are you having a pretend vision of them coming here, and saying that? Jesus christ anon. You're crazy.
>>139051370
Faggots are mentally ill the post
>>139050926
>You didn't even address the canon
I do in every post. You only address fanwank. Sausage Reifag.
>Then why didn't he just stop himself?
Kaworu says himself he'd have to live with the soul in unit02 if Shinji didn't stop it. Did you even watch the episode?
>That'd mean he's not responsible for whatever you find is "good" about him either.
He's responsible for choosing humanity over himself, this makes him good.
>He was cornered. Literally in the end.
No indication of that whatsoever. Kaworu allowed himself to be caught. That's the canon.
>e was aware that what he was doing would kill them from the start, yet still embarked to do it
Absolutely, and considering the nature of humanity it's reasonable for Kaworu to embark on killing them. But he decides they are more deserving of life (even though they really aren't).
Kaworu is a saint for even giving them a chance at survival when they don't even belong on his planet.
>He knew it would happen.
I never argued he wouldn't.
It's canon he is good. Even moreso when you compare him to certain members of humanity that caused him injustice in the first place.
>>139051370
>Kaworu does no evil. He's born on Earth and acts accordingly as an angel.
Betraying Shinji after bonding with him was evil. Fact.
Kaworu attempting to destroy mankind was evil. Fact.
You're only arguing that it is in his nature to be evil.
>Shinji, Rei, and even the director Anno confirm this fact.
Either you're high on drugs, kaworufag butthurt, or just crazy, but they've never touched this subject or confirmed any of this whatsoever.
>You can do both because humanity has killed his children, claimed his home as their own, and tried to use him as a tool for their own selfish plans.
So of course, this justifies Kaworu killing innocent human children that had nothing to do with any of these plans? Why doesn't he attack SEELE? Oh right, he doesn't actually care about any of that.
>He is conflicted, and makes a decision to give humans earth instead.
He was in no position to make such a decision to begin with. He made himself the enemy of mankind, he betrayed the only member of said species he has an onscreen connection with, and he is bad.
>>139016065
Shinji is supposed to be a flawed character.
It allows for growth which is what makes his victories and failures surprising and not something that is expected from the get-go.
In the rebuilds, Shinji is 50% more badass and it shows.
>>139051569
>I do in every post. You only address fanwank. Sausage Reifag.
You missed out on doing it.
>Kaworu says himself he'd have to live with the soul in unit02 if Shinji didn't stop it. Did you even watch the episode?
Meaning, that has nothing to do with saving mankind. He even offered up a piece of his soul to destroy mankind, what dedication to genocide!
>No indication of that whatsoever. Kaworu allowed himself to be caught. That's the canon.
The canon is that Kaworu went to Adam, was in error about the direction, and the only way out was blocked by Shinji. That is the canon. You're fanwanking that a character you claim "had no real plans whatsoever" is somehow anevilmastermind plotting to be caught.
So you're telling me, that getting caught was part of his plan?
>He's responsible for choosing humanity over himself, this makes him good.
He had no choice. Shinji was there about to wreck his shit. He couldn't fulfill his ambition, as Adam wasn't there.
He had no position to make that choice, as he is the terrorist threatening to blow up earth to begin with.
>wow this terrorist is such a good guy, he planned to kill all these people but were cornered by police in an area with his bomb, such a good guy for not pressing the trigger
Idiot.
>It's canon he is good. Even moreso when you compare him to certain members of humanity that caused him injustice in the first place.
He's bad, no matter if hitler or mengele exists.
>>139051413
>You did not show any examples as to how he treated humans in the same way he treats Shinji.
You never said I had to, and whether I do or not doesn't matter.
Shinji = humanity to Kaworu.
>This is a lie by omission.
If no one ever asked him if he's an angel, or even what he is, then he doesn't have an obligation to tell them.
>Wrong, and you're fanwanking that Ritsuko knew Kaworu from SEELE.
So you're admitting to fanwanking? You're the one who said Ritsuko must know Kaworu since she was with SEELE.
Still, Misato goes to Ritsuko for information specifically on Kaworu. She considers her words of value, and if you weren't a crazy shallow waifufag you would know this.
>I guess I'll be finding Kaworu at his next KKK meet then.
I guess every single animal on Earth is part of the KKK, considering they have similar instinct.
>They gave him a new body, and gave him freedom.
Fanwank, he got neither. Kaworu cared about humanity and this is shown in the episode.
>Then he could have killed himself at the start instead of threatening to kill mankind and betray Shinji.
We have no indication he could have killed himself. How would an immortal go about doing that?
Furthermore, to Kaworu he doesn't see it as threatening mankind or even betraying Shinji. To someone like Kaworu who doesn't even perceive living as being valuable, he sees nothing harmful in what he is doing. And considering what humanity has done to him, it's only natural.
If you were in Kaworu's position, you'd want to destroy humanity, and yet Kaworu not even wanting to destroy them but rather giving them a chance makes him a saint.
>>139051562
>>139051472
Kaworufags lack rationality, intelligence and knowledge about the show in question.
They filter out everything that isn't conductive to their homo fantasies.
>>139051472
If the show is fanwank, then why bother watching the show in the first place?
>>139051325
>there was no canon before creation of the canon baka
So nothing existed before someone decided to put together a bunch of EXISTING works?
Just read those two links you got. It's a starter pack, but it'll do you good.
>>139051878
You keep claiming that kaworu tried to wipe out humanity, Yet where does he want to do that? I don't remember that scene. Now that's fanwank.
You claim he betrayed shinji as well, where did that happen? Everything he does is clearly with shinji's best interests in mind.
>>139037300
Where did the toilet meme come from?
"Kaworu isn't a bad guy, you guys. He just wants to preserve his race by getting rid of the ones not belonging to his race."
t. Kaworufag
>>139051664
>Betraying Shinji after bonding with him was evil. Fact.
Why? He doesn't even know he's betraying him.
>Kaworu attempting to destroy mankind was evil. Fact.
Why? SEELE even tells him humanity wants to be destroyed via instrumentality.
He's good and innocent in nature, just like the rest of the humans.
>but they've never touched this subject or confirmed any of this whatsoever
They did, right there in the show.
>this justifies Kaworu killing innocent human children that had nothing to do with any of these plans?
As much as Shinji killing innocent human children that had nothing to do with him being "rejected".
>Why doesn't he attack SEELE?
Why should he?
>and he is bad
No, he's good. And the show and creator will be the first to tell you this.
Kaworu fans gathered at the Kaworu Convention.
>>139051959
are you dumb? a canon, being a collection of works, of course cannot exist without a collection of existing works
all the books of the bible and many more existed before the canon but they were not discriminated between before the canon, although individual sects, churches and other groups might have discriminated amongst themselves, the canon was the first such discrimination from on high, i.e. the papal authority.
>>139052057
That's true, though.
And likewise, humanity isn't bad for wanting to preserve themselves and get ride of the ones not belonging to their race.
It's the instinct of survival of the fittest that everyone has.
>>139051852
Your spelling and grammar is so horrid, I don't even want to offer you a response.
>>139052055
Because her hairstyle looks like a toilet seat.
screams geometrically
>>139051878
>Shinji = humanity to Kaworu.
ignoring how obviously retarded and false that is, if it were true then he'd have literally betrayed humanity as he betrayed shinji.
But it's retarded and obviously false because there's billions of people who are also part of humanity.
>b-but i was never supposed to show examples
Weak. See >>139050456
>So you're admitting to fanwanking? You're the one who said Ritsuko must know Kaworu since she was with SEELE.
Nope. I never said that. You're not even capable of remembering earlier discussion.
>Still, Misato goes to Ritsuko for information specifically on Kaworu. She considers her words of value, and if you weren't a crazy shallow waifufag you would know this.
She investigates it all, because she's suspicious, from all sources. If you weren't an autistic waifufag yourself, you'd have understand why this is in-character for Misato.
>I guess every single animal on Earth is part of the KKK, considering they have similar instinct.
Moral animals can choose not to, Kaworu is obviously not one of them. Hey, I'm all for likening Kaworu to an amoral, base creature, because that's what he is.
>Fanwank, he got neither. Kaworu cared about humanity and this is shown in the episode.
Never shown, and proven wrong by the fact that he tried to destroy them. You're fanwanking.
>We have no indication he could have killed himself. How would an immortal go about doing that?
Jesus, so you just said he could choose how to die, but that he can't kill himself? Holy fuck, why not paint a big target on himself, fly around a bit, and say "HEY I R ANGEL" before even showing up? What about a shotgun to the head?
You are only exposing Kaworu to be a shit character as well as a bad one.
>>139052256
Is that butthurt-ense for "uh oh, I got rekt can't cant reply so I'll just criticize grammar" ?
>>139052498
Honestly your post makes you out to be an underage memester so I didn't want to give you the time of day.
>>139052450
the two best girls about to get it on
I think my dick is expanding into the 4th dimension
>>139052169
Just read the "how to not be an idiot" starter pack please. You're so off topic it's ridiculous.
>>139052559
Ramiel is Kaworu's kid you incestuous fuck.
>>139052550
This is the second time you've contradicted yourself. Not "wanting to offer a response" my ass.
Will you go a third time like Peter once did?
>>139052562
you're the one who doesn't know the definitions and histories of words you cling to in a discussion, I don't think you get to call anyone idiot
>>139052186
Uh-huh.
>>139052617
I make it a rule not to interact with Asukafags since they tend to be retarded just like their waifu.
>kaworufags think Kaworu is good
>kaworufags agree that likening Kaworu with the KKK is accurate
What's the matter with these people.
>>139052687
>evangelion with black shinji
It'd be Nadia all over again.
>>139052027
>no response to legitimate points
figures
>>139052750
Maybe they just don't like niggers.
>>139052061
>Why? He doesn't even know he's betraying him.
So, let's get this straight. Kaworu is getting buddy-buddy with Shinji. Holding hands and what not.
He knows that Shinji is fighting Angels as a pilot, and Kaworu himself is also going to be that, or that's his cover story at least.
He knows that rejoining with Adam will destroy mankind, and he knows he'll be fighting Shinji to the death by doing so regardless of the outcome.
So you're trying to sell, that somehow, Kaworu does not know that he's backstabbing Shinji pretty hard here?
We're done. Kaworu is a bad, bad person, and retarded to boot.
>>139052416
Considering humanity sudoku-ed the very next day anyway, I'd say Kaworu was on the right track.
>>139052887
>he knows
from where?
did you not understand the episode at all? he changes his mind about his mission at the end because of the bond he has built with shinji, so there is no contradiction.
>>139052887
Shinji doesn't give a shit about humanity, he even tells Kaworu that during their bedroom scene.
So no, he's not backstabbing Shinji. At least not by destroying humanity.
EoE shows us Shinji destroys humanity itself given the opportunity.
>>139052928
>bleach
>naruto
>nge
not hating on the other two series but jesus, dont place them on the same level as nge
>>139052928
>from where?
...he says it himself for gods sake
did you even watch it
>Kaworu is a suicidal fuck who wants to destroy humanity
>Shinji is a suicidal fuck who wants to destroy humanity
They're perfect for each other.
>>139053033
that is after he figures out what's really going on, before seeing lilith for himself he thought it was adam in terminal dogma, meaning he was misled by seele
>>139052985
Watch the goddamned episode you lumbering fat landwhale beast. Kaworu himself says that mankind will be destroyed. Of course he fucking knows. Even if he didn't, he knew that he'd be fighting Shinji.
Kaworu is a literal turd of a person in the original series.
>>139053012
"YOU BETRAYED ME! YOU BETRAYED ME, JUST LIKE MY FATHER DID!"
- Shinji Ikari, on Kaworu's betrayal in ep 24
>>139053015
I haven't seen either of those two series so I didn't even know they were a reference to that
>>139053099
He always knew it would mean the destruction of mankind. It's explained in the scene with SEELE earlier.
There's nothing indicating he discovered it then and then, and there's no reason he would just figure out that "O, this would destroy mankind" either.
>>139053129
>JUST LIKE MY FATHER DID!
Doesn't this line prove that Shinji doesn't feel betrayed because Kaworu is going to destroy humanity? Unless you're going to try and prove Gendo destroyed humanity.
>>139053208
We're proving that Kaworu betrayed Shinji here, which shouldn't need proving.
>>139053263
It doesn't, which is why I never argued against it.
But Kaworu didn't betray Shinji by threatening to destroy humanity, we know by that episode and even EoE that Shinji doesn't care about humanity. He even destroys it himself intentionally in EoE.
So the "KKK" is short for "Kaworu Komfy Klub" ?
>>139053208
No, because at that point Shinji is fighting for humanity, and by fighting against humanity he will always fight Shinji, which is why Shinji feels betrayed. Later in EoE he's lost hope and no longer cares, partly thanks to kaworu's betrayal.
Shinji is honestly my favorite anime character.
>>139053358
Fucking bullshit, and self-contradicting. If Shinji didn't feel betray by Kaworu's acts to become NERV's enemy, who fight for humanity, Shinji wouldn't have felt betrayed.
He'd go "yeay, go kaworu, kill that stupid humanity.
But he didn't. He was betrayed.
Kaworu is a huge fucking shit.
>>139053422
You go girl. Don't let those hating Kaworu fans get you down. Don't believe their lies.
>>139053192
what scene?
you're not watching the special edition are you?
>>139053508
The scene with Kaworu at the lake with SEELE.
>>139053405
If Shinji is fighting for humanity, then why does he only kill Kaworu after he tells him to? And then why does he still say Kaworu should have survived afterwards?
>>139053459
Shinji was betrayed because Kaworu didn't tell him he was an angel, not because he was a threat to humanity.
Shinji doesn't care about humanity, that's why he comes so close to stop piloting the Eva.
Kaworu is good because he lets humanity survive regardless of all they've done to him.
>>139052845
Maybe Kaworu is a inconsiderate, bigoted and sleazy faggot.
>>139053557
no such thing
>>139053594
>If Shinji is fighting for humanity, then why does he only kill Kaworu after he tells him to? And then why does he still say Kaworu should have survived afterwards?
Because he should have survived, dummy. Because Shinji wanted answers.
Kaworu doesn't need to die, only his plot to destroy mankind. But Kaworu gave him no choice, as Kaworu said that the only way mankind wouldn't be destroyed, was if Shinji killed him.
Kaworu is an asshole.
>>139053601
Maybe Kaworu just realized that lilin would kill themselves in the movie anyway, so he should finish the job for them.
Best boy.
>>139053672
>Kaworu said that the only way mankind wouldn't be destroyed, was if Shinji killed him.
Because that's all Kaworu has even known since SEELE captured him during Second Impact.
He has no reason to believe anything else.
That's his ironic "free will" as an angel, to choose how he dies. He was never given anything outside of that, but at least with Shinji being the one to kill him, he can die how he wants.
>>139053680
Don't you have any kittens to pointlessly murder?
>oh, look a kitty
>let's grab it and choke it to death so I can appear edgy as fuck
If you're unironically racist in 2016, you should literally kill yourself.
>>139053770
>Because that's all Kaworu has even known since SEELE captured him during Second Impact.
So kaworu is literally unable to think for himself then? Jesus fucking christ.
He has every reason to believe something else. He could have just shot himself in the face or put his head on a train track, sparing everyone the trouble. Literally no one stopping him.
But he just HAD to be an asshole.
>>139053825
>tfw kaworu has gotten more pussy than you
>>139053672
and you think that he chooses to get himself killed because he wants to destroy humanity? are you actually insane?
>>139053594
>Shinji was betrayed because Kaworu didn't tell him he was an angel, not because he was a threat to humanity.
That's dumb. Kaworu makes Shinji fight him, and if he was an Angel and Shinji didn't give a fuck, then he wouldn't have stopped him either.
Stupid - quit being it.
>Kaworu is good because he lets humanity survive regardless of all they've done to him.
Kaworu is shit because he attempted genocide and betrayed those closest to him. He's garbage.
>>139053881
>So kaworu is literally unable to think for himself then?
SEELE has instilled him with this belief for 15 years, it's not like he had a chance to believe in something else.
That is, until Shinji came along. And then he found a new purpose to his life, and decided to make that purpose the survival of humanity.
But then Shinji decided to kill everyone in EoE, so maybe Kaworu should have had a sleepover with another human instead.
>>139053939
He doesn't choose to get himself killed. He's out of options. No Adam, no escape route, and rather than surrendering, he'll accept being killed by Shinji, which will scar the fuck out of the kid.
Kaworu went there, betrayed Shinji, betrayed mankind, and tried to commit genocide. He failed because he chose the wrong turn at a crossing and ended up with Lilith instead.
You're insane if you think Kaworu isn't a bad person.
>>139053945
>then he wouldn't have stopped him either.
He did because Kaworu told him to. And Shinji still regretted it.
Shinji knew Kaworu surviving would mean the death of humanity, and he still said Kaworu should have survived at the end of the episode.
>Kaworu is shit because he attempted genocide and betrayed those closest to him.
Kaworu is great because he tried to give humanity a painless death instead of the traumatic ass shit Lilith gives them in EoE.
Best boy.
>>139053945
kaworu doesn't force shinji to do anything
>>139053978
kaworu's capacity for love is infinite, anyone who would let him in would allow him to see the good in mankind
>>139054058
Kaworu was a mistake.
>>139053978
>SEELE has instilled him with this belief for 15 years, it's not like he had a chance to believe in something else.
Fanwank. Faaaanwank.
Every other character can defeat the BS of NERV's lies, but not Kaworu apparently. Stop making up fanfiction to fill in for acharacter that clearly has no background.
Hint: trying to destroy mankind wantonly like Kaworu means you're part of the bad guys.
>>139054033
>he'll accept being killed by Shinji, which will scar the fuck out of the kid
And how is Kaworu supposed to know that? Kaworu doesn't even know Shinji cares about him.
>>139054102
How desperate do you have to be to use a completely different unrelated interview from my own quote? They aren't even saying the same thing.
>>139054058
I know you're not being serious. Kaworu a shit.
>>139054154
>Every other character can defeat the BS of NERV's lies
Name 5 characters who defeated NERV's lies and survived to tell the tale.
>Hint: trying to destroy mankind wantonly like Kaworu means you're part of the bad guys.
Trying to destroy mankind means you want them the fuck off your planet. It's well deserved and makes Kaworu a good guy. Humanity is the bad guy here.
>>139054205
I am. And the show and director agree me.
>>139054033
if he wanted to he could fight unit 01 and merge with lilith kicking off third impact, but he doesn't
you're being pretty delusional trying to paint him in a bad light
>>139054170
>And how is Kaworu supposed to know that? Kaworu doesn't even know Shinji cares about him.
REALLY?
>Shinji knew Kaworu surviving would mean the death of humanity, and he still said Kaworu should have survived at the end of the episode.
Nah, he didn't know that. Kaworu could have just walked out of there, no problem.
Kaworu is garbage.
>>139053945
>Kaworu is shit because he attempted genocide and betrayed those closest to him. He's garbage.
It's a universal constant
>>139054260
In detective Evangelion, Kaworu actually saves the day by catching the bad guy.
>>139054254
>if he wanted to he could fight unit 01
Rei was there and Unit 02 was neutralized. Kaworu can't control Unit 01, so what exactly is he going to do?
>>139054232
>Name 5 characters who defeated NERV's lies and survived to tell the tale.
Really, are you doing this? Name (arbitrary number of characters) who do, and even adding a clause that they also had to survive, in a series that is known for the ending where EVERYONE FUCKING DIES?
Kaworufags are so shi.
>>139054256
do you really think if he had a choice between death and walking out of there he wouldn't walk? he's clearly bound by something strong enough that only shinji can save him from it
>>139054256
>REALLY?
Really. Shinji never told Kaworu he loved him, so how is Kaworu supposed to know he means anything to Shinji?
>Nah, he didn't know that.
Kaworu tells Shinji him living means humanity must die. At the end of the episode, Shinji tells Misato Kaworu should have survived.
Kaworu is great.
>>139054295
And then he hijacks Units 00 and 02, attempts to merge with Lilith and causes the awakening of Unit Beta
>>139054254
He couldn't fight for shit. EVA02 is gone, Shinji literally has him in his cusp of his hands, and Rei is looming above at full strength AT-field. Kaworu is fucked.
NGE paitned him in a bad light, you just don't go all out on destroying mankind and to be painted in a good light.
>>139054317
Kaworu told Rei of her true nature which directly led to the ruination of Gendo.
Kaworu saved the day. Best boy.
>>139054365
There are no Evas in Detective Evangelion.
>>139054347
>do you really think if he had a choice between death and walking out of there he wouldn't walk? he's clearly bound by something strong enough that only shinji can save him from it
> he's clearly bound by something strong enough that only shinji can save him from it
That "strong thing" being your delusion.
He's not bound by shit. Shotgun to the face before he meets Shinji, he gets what he wants, problem solved.
>>139054381
NGE painted him in a good light, that's why Shinji and Rei support him.
That's why he's featured in EoE as a voice of reason.
>>139054407
I think you're confused. One of the cases is an Eva on Eva murder mystery
>>139054429
If the angels aren't even affected by missiles, what makes you think a shotgun would have any effect?
Angels are immortal.
>>139054347
Of course he had. Anno agrees.
Kaworu is just an asshole.
>>139054356
The same way he knows anything about Shinji. He claims to know his very fucking heart, but you're saying he can't read his face or listen to what Shinji says? Pfft.
If Kaworu joined with Adam, he'd destroy Shinji and kill him. If you can't see how that isn't betraying Shinji, then you're officially retarded.
>>139054478
Oh shit, that's the spinoff game where Shinji refuses to kill Kaworu and confesses to him he loves him, right?
But then the Eva eats Kaworu or something.
>>139054429
why would he kill himself before having a reason to do so?
why would he choose to die if he could choose to live?
why are you so delusional?
>>139054497
Kaworu was popped like a waterballon though. No missile needed.
Shotgun to the face.
>>139054569
>why would he kill himself before having a reason to do so?
Ask the other guy.
>why would he choose to die if he could choose to live?
Ask Kaworu, he chose to die pointlessly.
Why don't you realize that Kaworu is a shit character?
>>139054543
Anno says Kaworu is a good person, so I'll go with what he has to say.
And Kaworu only knows Shinji is sensitive, Kaworu has no reason to think Shinji loves him or that Shinji would care that Kaworu is going to fight him.
Kaworu has no self-worth, so he doesn't think Shinji will be affected if he kills him or not.
He doesn't think like a human does.
>>139054549
Yup. The Eva grows wings and a halo and opens a circular vortex in the sky. Game actually came out before 1.0/2.0 introduced any of that into canon
The Evangelion characters are all good, but it's sad that kaworufags and asukafags don't appreciate the characters for what they are. Apparently their entire fandoms are just a set of lies.
>>139054616
>Kaworu was popped like a waterballon though. No missile needed.
But he still lived. His soul was just transferred to the embryo in Adam's hand.
Therefore a shotgon wouldn't do anything.
>Why don't you realize that Kaworu is a shit character?
How is Kaworu a shit character? He has a specific role in Eva and it plays out perfectly. He has one of the greatest episodes in the series.
>>139054543
did you even watch the show? it's lilith not adam, kaworu is the first person to tell us this
third impact is the joining of lilith and adam, adam + adam isn't said to do anything
>>139054616
>he chose to die pointlessly
or maybe you're just reading his character wrong, so you're unable to understand his motivations? considered that?
>>139054629
>Anno says Kaworu is a good person, so I'll go with what he has to say.
Authority fallacy.
>Kaworu knows Shinji is sensitive
and he wouldn't figure out that by fighting him to the death he'd be hurt. Sure thing.
Kaworu is shit.
>>139054667
My favorite part was phoenix wright Kaworu.
>>139054694
kaworu is the voice of the angels and the person who shows shinji what love and compassion is
kaworu haters are unable to see this
>>139054702
>But he still lived. His soul was just transferred to the embryo in Adam's hand.
That's not canon. There's nothing saying his soul was transferred.
Moreover, that's what him dying before Shinji did at any rate, meaning it'd have the same effect for less trouble. Meaning Kaworu really is a huge, evil faggot.
>>139054725
>or maybe you're just reading his character wrong, so you're unable to understand his motivations? considered that?
Did you consider that for yourself? I know I did.
That's why I can securely understand his character from the canon rather than fanfiction.
>>139054752
Kaworu has no reason to believe Shinji would be hurt, because Kaworu himself has no self-worth.
Humanity already gets fucked in EoE, so Kaworu just wanting to speed this up a bit proves he's best boy.
>>139054754
This was my favorite part, but man, poor Misato just gets shit on the whole game
>>139054752
since when is that a fallacy in fiction? he wrote the story he knows what it's about
>>139054819
I think you've got it wrong. What you wrote is what Kaworufans imagine to be the truth. It's not Shinji's first encounter with love or compassion, or Angel voices.
He's just not a good character, or a person.
>>139054828
>That's not canon. There's nothing saying his soul was transferred.
It's right there in EoE. His soul was transferred and he's right next to Rei/Lilith for the rest of the movie because of it.
Kaworu's head coming off in episode 24 didn't even kill him.
His dummy plugs make Asuka into mince meat.
>>139054828
you just admitted you have no idea why he would choose to die, you understand nothing and you twist the canon to suit your delusions
just fuck off and choose to die yourself
>>139054859
>since when is that a fallacy in fiction? he wrote the story he knows what it's about
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author
It's especially true for fiction, actually. The author can change his mind, lie or otherwise deceive an audience. He might not even remember what he thought at the time.
>>139054850
>Misato's father has grey hair
And another possible DNA donor for Kaworu arrives.
>>139054875
The Angels are dicks. Leliel, Arael, and talked shit to the kids too. I guess it makes sense for solitary beings to have no social skills
>>139054903
>It's right there in EoE. His soul was transferred and he's right next to Rei/Lilith for the rest of the movie because of it.
There's no indication of that whatsoever in EoE. Show me a screencap or line of dialogue that shows it. Cant' do that? It's fanwank.
>hurr durr shiting on Asuka
Classic Kaworufag.
>>139054875
He's actually both a good character and a good person.
Shinji will be the first to tell you this.
>>139054875
all previous encounters with the angels have confronted the characters with shadows of themselves, and in general this is from a place of utmost compassion
leliel offers himself up to unit 1 when he finally understands shinji
kaworu is the first time an angel speaks freely from the heart, rather than through someone else
so he is the voice of the angels for the audience, but he is also important for shinjis development
>>139054909
Sounds like you're buttflustered it's been revealed that Kaworu is a garbage character.
Everything you say is objectively wrong.
>But Kaworu could choose to die!
Then why not choose to die somewhere else, where he doesn't cause a lot of conflict and suffering?
>>139054981
But anon.... Shinji isn't real. I'm sorry. Go take your medication.
>>139054957
Uh, are you forgetting the scene with giant Kaworu?
He only got there because Rei took Gendo's hand which had his body on it.
What? How did I shit on Asuka?
>>139054943
kaworu has dead hair and red eyes for the same reason rei does
>>139055036
You haven't shown any evidence on why Kaworu is garbage.
>>139055016
>all previous encounters with the angels have confronted the characters with shadows of themselves, and in general this is from a place of utmost compassion
In other words, this is the true voice of the Angels. Kaworu is an exception, and doesn't represent them. In fact, Kaworu never even mentions them or thinks about them. He's an asshole like that, not even caring about his children, the Angels.
He's a bad person.
>>139054954
Kaworu is the biggest faggot of them all.
>>139054981
Too stupid.
>>139054943
>Adam becomes human
>Katsuragi becomes an Adam
Pottery.
I think Dr. Katsuragi's hair is just grey from age. Guy's getting on in the years.
>>139055036
>everything you say is objectively wrong
well you can say that and you can use butt memes too, I'm sure you'll get over that phase one day, but if you don't have a counter argument you have really said nothing
>>139055038
>Uh, are you forgetting the scene with giant Kaworu?
Uuuhhhhhh are you forgetting that said scene doesn't show squat about his soul being transferred into the embryo?
>What? How did I shit on Asuka?
Fuck off back to /cm/
>>139055103
>Kaworu never even mentions them or thinks about them
On his descent to terminal dogma, he questions why the angels have to survive at the cost of humanity
>>139055122
Correction: the one lacking arguments is you.
Kaworu knew he would destroy mankind by attempting to join with Adam and that he would betray Shinji, yet he attempted anyway. He's a bad person because of that.
>>139055103
kaworu perfectly mirrors the previous meetings with the angels by showing a deep love for shinji and upon finally understanding the goodness of man, gives himself up, just like leliel
>>139055189
That doesn't make him a bad person because mankind doesn't deserve to live on Earth.
They even destroy themselves in EoE, so Kaworu is only helping them out by putting them out of their misery.
It's better for Kaworu to destroy them by merging with Lilith than for them to be burned alive by SEELE.
He's a great person for being so considerate.
>>139055241
>It's better for Kaworu to destroy them by merging with Lilith than for them to be burned alive by SEELE.
It's the same thing in the end
>>139055165
He doesn't, the angels are not mentioned.
>>139055147
It's not my fault Asuka is such a shitty pilot she got rekt by Kaworu's dummy plugs.
>>139055189
>knew
from where? episode and timecode
he gave up once he understood that humanity was going to die and that they were really worth keeping around
>>139055234
So, trying to kill Shinji and mankind mirrors Kaworu? Got it.
Turns out kaworu really is an evil SOB.
>>139055272
It's not.
Better a fast death than a slow death.
Kaworu is a saint for trying to let humanity off easy.
>>139055241
All you're doing is taking Kaworu's side, which is the bad side since both of you are advocating mass murder and genocide, pointless genocide.
You're showing that Kaworufags are evil as well.
>>139055293
Can't give you the time, but you get that scene where he is in front of Lilith and outright says it.
>>139055315
Kaworu figured mankind is better off dead since they keep fighting with eachother and starting wars over stupid shit.
At least the angels don't fight eachother.
>this kaworufag defense worse
All theyre doing is making themselves look worse .
>>139055362
In Evangelion, mankind attacks eachother and genocides eachother. They burn in eachother alive and cause wars over money and materialistic things.
They're a pointless existence on Earth, and Kaworu figures he might as well destroy them since they'll all get burned and fucked up by Lilith the next day regardless.
This makes him the best person in the show.
>>139055418
>>139055286
>>139055272
>>139055241
So this is where we're at now? Insulting other characters because you can't defend Kaworu, and blatantly fanwanking that kaworu was mercy-killing mankind?
All that energy you're spending to pretend kaworu isn't a bad person could be better spent on accepting that he is, and enjoying the character for what he is.
>>139055434
He's trying his best!
>>139028065
you're a fucking faggot
>>139055488
>kaworu advocates genocide and mass murder
>totally makes him a good person
>>139055362
yeah in front of lilith, he only knows it's lilith after seeing her with his own eyes, before that he thought it was adam
>>139055315
it's never made explicit what the angels are trying to do except that they are trying to reach adam, this is shown when gaghiel shows up at the fleet because kaji is carrying adams embryo
in the instances where they get to communicate directly with someone they are trying to help
>>139055507
Mankind is the only bad person in Evangelion.
The angels were innocent and just wanted to chill on earth.
>>139055560
Mankind advocates genocide and mass murder against their own people, Kaworu is just putting them down for their own sake.
>>139055560
>kaworu advocates genocide and mass murder
when?
20 years and we still don't know what Adam really looks like or what it can do
>kaworu tells shinji humanity needs the future
>shinji destroys humanity the next day
ok.
>>139055729
Adam looks like this
He's too OP so we'll never see his full capabilities, like Lilith
>>139055609
>>139055588
>>139055573
Kaworu explicitly states in episode 24 that what he's doing will destroy humanity.
It's over Kaworufags. All you have left is buggering off, or to start shitposting about BEST BOY because LILIN suck.
>>139055834
yeah he says it because he doesn't want to do it anymore, he also didn't say this until after learning about lilith, so he probably thought something else was going to happen
he is stating facts, not advocating anything
Kaworufag/Asukafag status: trashed
>>139055834
Considering humanity gets burned alive the next day by fellow humans, I'd say Kaworu was doing what was best.
Lilin will only ruin eachother with wars and violence until none of them are left, Earth was made for the angels and Kaworu should have let nature run its course and destroy humanity as destiny calls.
Kaworu can only be seen as good.
>>139055919
A little to late there. It's like one of those cliched and awkward moment where the bad guy gets caught in the act, and goes "wow wow this is totally not what it looks like, I wasn't going to destroy you, in fact I was going to save you, totally true".
He is advocating mass murder and genocide by going through with it.
Then there's kaworufags like >>139055969
who advocate it, which is the shitposting you're getting close to doing yourself.
>>139055729
She looks like this. She can lay eggs and she goes wild when DNA gets in her core.
>>139055909
Fuck off.
>>139056054
So why didn't that happen when Gendo fused Adam to his palm?
Kaworu's only mistake was letting lilin live.
As we see in EoE, humanity gets rekt anyway and everyone dies.
By Kaworu surviving, he could at least save Earth and bring back his children as it was intended to be.
>>139055992
If Kaworu doesn't off humanity, then humanity will just off itself.
He was right to try and end them, but letting them live out of pity also establishes his immense kindness.
Both Shinji and Rei realized this, which is why they both are positive towards him in the next episode and EoE
Denying otherwise is just being insane.
>>139056223
Nice shitposting.
>>139055992
He's not going through with it.
>>139056223
>As we see in EoE, humanity gets rekt anyway and everyone dies.
By the same organization that sent Kaworu in the first place. That's not a point in his favor.
As a protagonist, when life fucks you over, you improve, Shinji did not and he got fucking worse. This guy's life got fucked over and improved.
>>139056309
Kaworu a good person confirmed.
Denying otherwise is denying the canon.
>>139056316
Shinji still kills them all.
