Is Tragedy a lost genre to anime?
Not only for Anime but also almost all media because modern people can't handle tragedies.
Kind of but not really. What >>122004894
said.
>>122004894
>modern people can't handle tragedies
This, everyone would call a tragedy edgy shit nowadays.
On /a/, anyway.
>>122004817
yeah so many people I recommend Madoka to drop it after the third episode. Normal people can't into tragedy,
>>122004973
>>122004894
equal forms of correctness
>>122005037
There are tons of reasons to drop Madoka. Right at the first episode, even.
>>122004894
Except that's complete bullshit. VNs are chocked to the gills with tragedy to the point it has become laughable.
>>122005037
Madoka doesn't even resemble a tragedy though
>>122004817
Kind of
Mainly because anime wants to sell and the only people who pay for anime are fat otaku with paper thin ego that cant handle tragedy
>>122004894
Tragedies are absolutely everywhere on serialized TV right now and have been for the past decade heavily.
>>122005135
>VN's
>Anything other then laughable.
Tragedies aren't popular these days, right?
>>122005262
Oh, so this is a /lit/ shitposting thread in disguise? It explains the out of place OP.
>>122005271
Or making tragedies nowadays is a tragedy in itself.
>>122004817
But poor average guards/soldiers/militia gets chomped by monsters in almost every series, how is that not tragedy?
>>122004817
Check out Tokyo Magnitude 8.0
>>122004817
Not in the classical sense, no, I don't think so.
And you know what, fuck tragedy, it's shit. Not the slightest entertaining. Would rather get literary meaningfulness from other genres. This is my opinion.
>>122005329
No, because I'm the OP and I love VNs.
>>122005395
It becomes comedy if done wrong (see Blood-C).
>Gunbuster
>>122005026
>breaking bad one of the biggest shows of recent times
>basically spitting image of classic tragedy arcs
>modern people can't into tragedy
It is pretty dead in anime I agree, outside of a rare handful of shows, but elsewhere its never been bigger.
Say what you will about the Oedipus Trilogy being entry-level shit
but I really did feel moved by every one of the three sections.
Tragedies in a classical sense are so engaging, I was 'oh shit' edge of seat more than anything else I've ever watched
I don't get why we don't have more of anything else besides the shit comedies, romances, romantic comedies, action flicks, etc.
>>122005615
>I don't get why we don't have more of anything else besides the shit comedies, romances, romantic comedies, action flicks, etc.
Easier to digest, less brainpower required to enjoy, sex sells, etc.
>>122005395
Because you havent spent the past few episodes getting attached to their characters as they develop
The saddest thing is that most people don't know what a tragedy work actually is nowadays.
>>122005664
Also, who wants to watch shit about tragedy?
It's not like real life events are already enough bad shit for Japan.
>>122005615
>>122005664
Because we do, don't say there's nothing but shit but then not seek out all thr abundant types of films you are asking for that get released every year.
Are there any good anime tragedies? I enjoy the genre but it's seldom featured in anime.
>>122005730
I might have accidentally when full /tv/ and talked about films
I don't actually know the state of the anime industry in terms of diversity of genre, but I can see variety on here alone, so I believe you.
>>122005329
The plot of every VN in existence:
>MC is the only man in existence, of others exist they are pure evil or the best bro of the MC
>MC has a super special awesome magic power that may or may not be so super special awesome depending on the power of his friendship level.
>All girls want the MC's cock, especially the 3-5 girls that the MC will have to pick from.
>MC will make ghandi look like a war criminal by refusing to use violence even in the face of death, but will take no action to prevent violence from happening.
>The girls will solve all the MC's problems for him and then he will pick the worst one.
For bonus 'drama':
>Girls are all being hunted by something/someone, dying of an incurable ailment, need the MC's blood/jizz/magical power/exc. to survive or a combo of the three.
>>122005911
Then whichever one he picks dies. Key detail.
>>122004817
We don't need tragedies because the biggest tragedy is living in a 3d world.
>>122005695
I don't.
Can some please tell me what a tragedy is?
>>122005911
Well I was judging Muv Luv by your criteria and
>MC will make ghandi look like a war criminal by refusing to use violence even in the face of death, but will take no action to prevent violence from happening.
>The girls will solve all the MC's problems for him and then he will pick the worst one.
>Girls are all being hunted by something/someone, dying of an incurable ailment, need the MC's blood/jizz/magical power/exc. to survive or a combo of the three.
all failed
>>122005650
Fate/Zero is probably the closest thing I can think of to a traditional tragedy.
Ironically enough, School Days actually works as a tragedy pretty well. There's a protagonist who finds himself in a typical situation and is brought to his downfall by his own flaws.
>>122004817
Berserk, Evangelion, Escaflowne, Metropolis etc.
In other words, no. Japanese drama INVENTED the tragicomedy, too.
>>122005037
Half of the characters are literally Greek tragedies.
>>122006189
The actual structure of Madoka does not resemble a tragedy though. Especially not the ending, which is the crux of what makes a tragedy a tragedy.
>>122006020
Simple it's when a work doesn't have a happy ending... And no a nothing is resolved ending doesn't count.
>>122006189IF YOU MEAN THE CHARACTER IS A TRAGEDY OF WRITINGnawwww never watched it
Texhnolyze
>>122005911
The only VNs I've seen follow all of your criteria are all eroge ironically enough.
>>122004817
WUT
>SUFFERING
IS THE MOST OVERUSED ANIME TROPE AS A SHORTCUT TO CHARACTER DEPTH
ARTIFICIAL BUT EFFECTIVE
>>122006434
Everything has suffering but that doesn't make it a tragedy.
>>122005911
>>122006434
Maybe you should look up what Tragedy means
The people I've convinced to watch Berserk were legitimately angry with me after it ended.
>>122006512
They're only angry cause you made them watch it, not read it
You need to watch more Urobutchi.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3vq3WH4Xn8
>>122006473
ITS ALWAYS A TRAGEDY
>>122006491
Tragedy (from the Greek: τραγῳδία, tragōidia[a]) is a form of drama based on human suffering
Most people can't define tragedy beyond "...uh, something sad, I guess?" - of which there is enough media out there that tries to source its entertainment value by plugging at ye heartstrings, so transparently indeed that we have our own buzzword "forced drama" for it.
It's not even that most people can*t handle "sad" content (as some commenters suggested) or only want happy stuff, no but the matter is there is only a rather specific type of sadness presented. Example case being the cliche of cute girl dying from some anime-disease, that's the type of "tragedy" that otakus will lap up for "feels"
>>122006512
I made that mistake once or twice. I now preface the recommendation with the fact that the show ends on a cliffhanger. Softens the blow.
The anime is totally underrated.
Discuss TRADITIONAL GREEK TRAGEDY
and CONTEMPORARY TRAGEDY
Distinguish which one you are discussing, avoid misunderstanding!
Not at all
>>122006585
A tragedy is a protagonist who is a villain, and he dies at the end.
last thing i read that followed the tragedy formula was tokyo ghoul. the manga at least.
>>122006020
>Tragedies
Everyone dies.
>Comedy
Everyone marries.
Everything else just leads up to that.
At the risk of being told to fuck off to /v/ I just want to point out that as I was replaying Majora's Mask I really realized how much of that fucking game works as maybe the first real tragic game in 3D. Everything from the mechanics of the game to its atmosphere reinforces the central theme of the inevitable. And the beauty of it all is that this isn't accomplished by some half-assed explanation. It's accomplished by the game itself. The tragedy of Termina is that link is only human. No one could ever possibly save everyone in Termina. The player's flaw becomes Link's flaw. And in that sense, the tragedy is twofold. It manifests itself in both the character and the actor.
Just some thoughts. I can't actually think of an anime that really satisfies the elements of what I would call a traditional tragedy.
>>122006764
no its not. tragedies usually have an MC put in a horrifying situation that is due to his own faults such as hubris. and by the end of the play he realizes his own faults and then dies
>>122006900
>and by the end of the play he realizes his own faults and then dies
Or he doubles down on his hubris, falling deeper into the depths of his own futility as he dies horribly.
>>122005911
>The plot of every LN in existence
Hell, there's some garbage airing this season with elements of your post.
>>122006900
>no its not.
compelling, but I think I'll trust Shakespeare over random anon who gets his education from anime.
>>122007064
Who came before Shakespeare by hundreds of years?
>>122007103
MADOKA
A DECONSTRUCTION OF GYROS
I'd say GC was pretty tragic and a lot of people loved it. Not me though that shit is for homos.
>>122006512
the 97 anime is classic but it would have been so much better if it dropped the first episode and changed the ending from the manga to have guts killed, then it would stand on its own completely
>>122007119
RIGHT
GYROS, food item of GYRO NAME predated the CONTEMPORARY SPIRALS
SPIRAL MOTIF IS A RENOVATION OF GYROS in name
>>122006236
>The actual structure of Madoka does not resemble a tragedy though. Especially not the ending
It ended on a bittersweet note, but I think there were enough Faustian themes and descents into murder-suicide to warrant a few depressive descriptions.
The movie sequel on the other hand ended withone of the characters undermining the free will of the one she loves, to the point where she forces her into a gilded cage despite the implied conflict it would cause for them in the future.Sequel bait maybe, but it wasn't really a pick-me-up.
>>122007103
Oh I can't wait. This is the part where we start quoting Aristotle and then someone tries to quote the pre-socratics. And then someone's going to try and quote the Epic of Gilgamesh as a tragedy.
I love it when we start doing this.
Although it doesn't wholly fit the definition of a classic tragedy, Jin-Roh is closer to the mark than any other anime that comes immediately to mind.
You know it's not like if you lifted the plots from Sophokles and Aischylos and put them into something like modern anime, anons would just be like "ugh, forced drama" anyway.
>>122006853
Majora's Mask is dark, but it isn't a tragedy. Link never wavers and shepherds the NPCs through their trials.
Tragedy generally involves a sympathetic protagonist being undone by their heroic flaw. Offhand, examples in anime would be things like
Jin-Roh: The Wolf Brigade
Cowboy Bebop
The End of Evangelion
and the Golden Age arc of Berserk
>>122007196
Yeah, you're kind of right.
I'm not going to quote anyone but Sophocles, not the first, is a famous guy.
I don't get why you're being all snarky about nothing.
I don't think of Gilgamesh as a tragedy.
>>122007229
I can kind of see that. Fuse prioritizing the survival of the brigade did not foresee her killing until the last moment.
I see tragedy as a path of logic that leads to a negative result, thus persuading the reader to not follow that same path. It's wisdom, in a sense.
Katanagatari was a tragedy. Everyone who focused on the past lost their lives for doing just that.
>>122007343
That's actually a pretty good example. Don't know how I didn't think of it.
>>122007182
>It ended on a bittersweet note
There ya go, not a tragedy. No ifs ands or buts.
>>122007305
>Link never wavers
Ah, but he does.
Every time he turns the clock back he wavers. Every time. Again and Again. Link fails far more often than he doesn't. The really tragedy isn't Link though. It's the people that he's unable to help. You can't save everyone. You can't even save most people. You can't save Anju and Kafei, and Pamela, and the Gorons, and the Zora Eggs, and the Monkeys or the Romani cows. There simply isn't the time. You can play the game again, and again, and again, rewinding time as much as you want but eventually you'll just have to kill Majora, and by that point you will have failed. Your fatal flaw is your own humanity. It haunts you even in victory.
Take a look at the credits screen if you need any more proof. You couldn't even save the Butler's son.
>>122006764
By that definition Death Note is a tragedy.
Is it, /a/ ?
>>122007462
This is Polygon-levels of fucking retarded.
>>122004894
There are still tragedybooksbutno one reads because everyone is semi-retarded.
>>122007501
What did you think it was? Of course it's a tragedy.
>>122007501
Yes, it's a really bad one.
>>122004817
No. Far from it.
In fact, the entire anime industry is a tragedy.
>>122005911
>I can only read .001% of VNs because I'm a pleb who can't even read japanese
>>>/v/
>>122007546
Miyazaki, please. At least shitpost on 2chan.
>>122007510
excellent retort, faggot.
>>122007546
>implying Kill la Kill didn't save anime
>>122007501
Death Note is definitely a tragedy, albeit a shit one. Not every tragedy is Macbeth.
>>122007562
For Starters, no Zelda game is a tragedy. They're quests.
>>122007305
>>122007229
these niggas get it
Jin Roh was the only strong tragedy I've seen in anime.
That being said, the entire industry is getting worse and worse so we best not expect anything better.
>>122007596
And not every Macbeth is a tragedy.
>>122006329
This. All of this.
>>122007462
The Butler's son was screwed before you even entered Termina proper.
There's only 2 conflicting events:
-stopping Sakon from looting the Bomb Shop lady versus helping Kafei get the Sun's Mask from Sakon's Hideout
-giving Kafei's letter to his mom versus giving it to the Postman, both of which get made irrelevant if the Moon is stopped anyway
EVERYTHING else that Link can fix over those 3 days can be done in a single 3-day loop once Link has all the key items carried over.
>>122006542
I'll concede to the manga's superior pacing and time for detail, but I still love the old anime, despite the tragically abrupt finish. The music, the atmosphere, the lack of Puck, those goofy outtakes from the dub, etc.
>>122006675
>preface the recommendation with the fact that the show ends on a cliffhanger
Yeah... That's probably wise. Damage is done though.
>>122007166
Eeh, the first episode was skippable, but I don't think that completely killing the open-ending would have made it more satisfying.
>>122007615
>Not every fish is dumb, they're yellow
>Not every elephant is a mammal, they're small
This is the equivalent of the shit you're spewing.
Would akame ga kill fall under tragedy?
Is Danganronpa a tragedy or is it much worse?
>>122007676
The letter to Kafei's mother can only be done one of two ways.
Also, I'd love to see someone try and do every fucking sidequest and boss fight in one three-day cycle. I'm sure a speedrunner could probably do it, but for the average gamer, its not possible.
>>122007702
Whatever, kid. Go play with your Wii. Adults are trying to discuss anime.
>>122004894
It's because tragedies are governed by decently strict conventions. At this point, the 'classical' tragedy is largely played out novelty-wise, so you have to execute it very well for people to care.
>>122007708
No.
Happy ending for a lot of people.
Just a particular type of conclusion for a particular relationship, not a total shitting on everyone.
>>122004817
>Not reading manga
i was gonna say cowboy bebop was a tragedy but then I realized spike basically knew he was getting into the whole time and there was no sense of irony, he just went in, watched his gf get killed, then got himself killed cause fuck it
>>122007745
>nothing personnel kid :/\)))))
kekity kek
>>122004817
It's a lost genre to a lot of places. The Wire and Breaking Bad are probably the last successful high profile Greek-styled Tragedy series.
As for anime, I suppose Shin Sekai Yori got close and Madoka got a bit closer, but neither one really gets in that dirt. Fate/Zero gets pegged as a tragedy but you can argue it either way.
Funny that Mushishi came close with Lightnings End and Path of Thorns though. That show definitely isn't in the tragedy arena so when it dips its toes the effect is much more powerful.
>>122005911
Is Fate the only VN you've attempted to play.
>>122004817
No. Tragedy will always exist because we are gluttons for punishment.
>>122007708
Akame ga Kill's author is a fucking hack whose manga basically runs on shock factor.
I know the word "edgy" is misused on 4chan on many boards but when most of the drama of the story comes from "characters being raped and killed" it fits. Not to mention the retarded mood dissonance between comedy and dark shounen drama.
>>122007854
Homura has to die, or it's not tragic.
![0005 - Ch.4 Read Online [by Ivyscan].zip-034.png](https://i.imgur.com/GiHgEmw.png "0005 - Ch.4 Read Online [by Ivyscan].zip-034.png")
>>122004817
Nobody want to animate them since there are nothing to advertise for.
Nowadays people just want 20mins LN advertisement.
>>122007854
Suffering exists because we're gluttons for punishment.
Tragedy exists because someone irrevocably erased their own path forward. If someone endured a fucked-up life but died with zero regret, the outsider will still think that person's life was a tragedy because they generally don't want to live out said fucked-up life.
>suffering and forced drama are tragic
Kaneki did nothing wrong
>>122007874
A tragic hero doesn't have to die. They have to experience a fall, or a loss of prosperity.
I hate Narutaru but, read Narutaru.
>>122007874
Oedipus became a blind wanderer.
>>122008083
What they're doing to him in TG:RE is annoying but I have hope..
Tragic means that you can relate to the characters and their pain.
Most anime fail at that because drama only occurs under retarded circumstances like characters betraying their own character just to go into the dramatic situation.
>>122008115
Stories with tragic characters don't necessarily act out tragedies. Sorry, rules are rules.
![grave-fireflies-3[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/nzQf6mG.jpg "grave-fireflies-3[1].png")
Nobody can argue with this one, right?
>>122008160
Are you trying to argue that Oedipus Rex isn't a tragedy?
Classic Greek/Shakespearean Tragedy: a story in which a protagonist's actions lead to their downfall, often moral and often providing a cathartic release. Generally easily predictable or flat-out spoiled at the beginning of the story.
Modern Tragedy: show with sad or heavily bittersweet ending, but still designed to trigger a cathartic response. That's the real key: it's able to trigger emotions we otherwise keep bottled up because being sad makes us happy.
-Fate/Zero fits the definition.
-Madoka's not a classic tragedy because, despite the characters having archetypal tragic hero arcs, the downfall is undone by Madoka's sacrifice.
-Angel Beats is arguably a modern tragedy because of catharsis and a bittersweet ending. Possibly same with Clannad, but I still haven't seen it so I'm not sure.
-Death Note's not really a tragedy because Light's a villain protagonist and not a tragic hero.
-A lot of Mushishi episodes are tragedies.
Not many good tragedies in anime but there are a few gems out there. Same can be said of modern media as a whole.
IF THERES ANY SUFFERING, ITS LITERALLY TRAGEDY
>>122006585
AND THE SITUATIONS THAT LEAD TO SAID SUFFERING ARE USUALLY TRAGEDY IN THE OTHER SENSE
>IS TRAGEDY LOST IN ANIME
KEK
ITS THE CHEAPEST AND EASIEST WAY TO GIVE LIFE TO CARTOON CHARACTERS
AND THEREFORE >SUFFERING IS HUGELY OVERUSED
>>122007790
The only thing that was keeping Spike alive was running from his past, he decided to man up and face the music.
>>122008160
Show me a source saying that Greek Tragedies have a rule saying the hero must always die.
>>122004894
>>122004817
very difficult to compete with television news for tragedy
still plenty of tragedies in other media though, not sure what you're talking about
>>122008030
>forced drama
epic
>>122008115
He dies in the sequel.
>>122008164
That was thirty years ago.
>>122008207
The villain must die. Homura is not the hero Madoka is.
And Shakespeare is the source.
>>122008194
Emeraude's death in Rayearth can fit as a Romeo and Juliet-tier tragedy.
>>122008221
>girl acts like a normal caring person
>some minor shit happens
>''HOW CAN THAT POSSIBLY HAPPEN TO ME WHY AM I SO SHIT I WILL FUCK OVER EVERYTHING NOW!''
>not forced drama
>>122008280
Best example for that would be Madoka
>Sayaka in general
>Mami shooting her own friends after she cried how much she wants some
>>122008307
>Mami shooting her own friends after she cried how much she wants some
Cake?
>>122008160
What the fuck are you getting on at?
>>122008226
Yeah. I was getting at the fact that he didn't die in Oedipus Rex. His living in Oedipus at Colonus (Which is not the sequel, but the first published and performed work) is important, and his death is anything but tragic. It is a redemption.
>>122008235
Homura is not the villain, Kyuubei is. In the series and the first two movies Homura is the deuteragonist while Madoka is the protagonist. In Rebellion Homura is the protagonist and therefore the tragic hero.
Also, Shakespeare did not invent tragedies. Shakespearean tragedies are their own subgenre and have different characteristics than the overarching genre of "tragedy". It was Aristole that said a tragic hero is defined by a loss of prosperity, not by death. Though death is a good example of a lost of prosperity.
>>122008343
Tragedy is a story structure. The presence of death or suffering is irrelevant.
You're all babies.
Disregard that i suck monkey dicks
>>122008235
>The villain must die.
Oedipus does not die in Oedipus Rex. Oedipus Rex is a classic Greek tragedy. Therefore, the MC doesn't have to die for something to count as a tragedy. Why is this so hard?
>>122008379
>The presence of death or suffering is irrelevant.
c.f,
>The villain must die. (>>122008235)
Are you actually trying to be completely incoherent?
>>122008379
>The presence of death or suffering is irrelevant.
Then I agree with you.
I was saying to the first guy that Oedipus, the main guy, didn't die in Rex.
In fact, no one had to die in Rex and it still would've been a tragedy.
You might be a different guy, I don't know.
>>122008160
>Oedipus isn't a tragedy
Fine. Go argue with the ancient greeks, namefag.
>>122008160
>legitimately attempting to argue that one of the most prominent examples of a genre is not part of that genre
>>122008379
You are the baby.
You can't even read that guy's previous posts.
>>122007874
She is dead.On the inside.
>>122008405
I suppose you're right. Then that would make Madoka a tragedy, as Homura is as good as dead.
>>122007533
>no one reads because everyone is semi-retarded.
Society or younger generation in general?
>>122008495
>says you don't need to die in a work to make it tragic
>says Madoka is tragic because Homura is ''dead''
Are you pretending to be retarded or just a dumb namefag?
>>122008526
>>122008495
I'm pretty sure there's several them confusing everything.
>>122008549
s/several them/several of them
fuck
this is why we don't need trips on a board like /a/
>>122008526
That's not what I said. I said the presence of death and suffering is irrelevant.
There's death in a story, and then there's a story constructed around a death. That is what tragedy is. A structure. A story isn't a tragedy just because you're sad that people die or suffer in it. Every war movie is not a tragedy.
Understand now?
>>122008526
>Are you pretending to be retarded or just a dumb namefag?
You know what to do, anon.
>>122008589
You're all good, no worries.
fuck impersonation
>>122008606
Who is !!xgyk and what did he do to fracture your mental state enough to hide from the world, cowardly-anon?
>Definition of a tragedy
>A play dealing with tragic events and having an unhappy ending, especially one concerning the downfall of the main character:
Nothing about death.
Oedipus is tragic because the guy kills his own father and impregnates his own mother without knowing anything about it.
Madoka for example isn't tragic because Madoka is the main character. The story follows her not Homura for most of the time.
>>122004894
The masses eat tragedies up. Everyone loves them. I'm not sure why producers are so afraid of them. Be they aren't gone. There Will Be Blood was a recent movie. And I never saw the end of Breaking Bad, but I'm guessing it wasn't a "happily ever after".
A tragedy is about the fall of great people, whether through their own devices or because of a greater sense of "destiny."
It's not exclusively about suffering or anything like that.
>>122008680
I've not an expert, but I always thought a tragic hero had to be responsible for their own downfall due to a tragic flaw.
>>122008626
Every post in this thread is me, I was just wrong and retarded before anon set me straight
>>122008606
Not that anon but thanks for reminding me that for all intents and purposes I have the power to wipe namefags like this mouthbreather out of existence.
>>122008701
Exactly.
A tragic hero needs to be responsible for the shit he is getting.
It can't be happening to him because of some monkey paw bullshit.
>>122007196
but shakespearean tragedy follows everything >>122006900
said idk why you're disagreeing
>>122008710
Well, thanks for understanding.
>>122008701
Not quite. Hubris and Downfall are the most prominent, of course, but there are also classical tragedies that feature more or less innocent protagonists who are simply caught in lose-lose scenarios and inescapable catastrophe
ITT EVERYONE INVENTS THEIR OWN DEFINITION OF TRAGEDY ADDS RETARDED CAVEATS AND THEN ARGUES ABOUT IT
BY ANY DEFINITION, TRAGEDY IS THE BIGGEST GIMMICK IN ANIME
>>122008499
Society in general, most people don't even touch a serious book, maybe they read the new shitty best seller and newer generations for the most part don't pass the young adult literature phase.
>>122008847
No, tragedy is still a story structure. A work isn't suddenly a tragedy just because an author pulls your heartstrings. That's just called 'drama'
>>122008847
There are clear definitions for tragedies.
>>122005135
What about a VN where they're the entire focus?
>>122008948
THERE SURE ARE
>Tragedy (from the Greek: τραγῳδία, tragōidia) is a form of drama based on human suffering
>>122008931
IF THE DRAMA IS BASED ON SUFFERING IT IS
>entire series is the MC suffering
>at the end he doesn't even get a happy ending
This makes me rage so hard.
Why do authors do this? I will put up with all your shit if you at least make a happy resolution.
>>122005911
Demonbane didn't have that.
>>122009651
it felt like a hard reset only found in a videogame
Depends how this series ends
>>122009721
There life is supposed to be awesome and gradually get worse until the point where they die in a ditch somewhere.
>>122004817
>I love saddnes
That edge.
>>122009806
I'll respond to the bait tragedy has always been a thing and it exploded with the greeks
There is literally nothing wrong with that
>>122009824
Slavery was always a thing too and the Greeks were doing it.
>>122009452
hell.. anything other than Romeo & Juliet.
Macbeth, King Lear, Othello, Coriolanus, Hamlet, Julius Caesar, especially Titus Andronicus.
>>122009791
>girl dies
>it starts to snow/rain
god I hate that shit. feels so artificial
I like characters who suffer and close themselves off from the world because they are the most relatable.
>>122009806
Tragedies don't necessarily mean it's grim dark 24/7.
>>122009845
>implying slavery was bad
>>>>
>>122009908
And it still isn't today.
>>122009867
Macbeth would make a great anime.
Samurai and Daimyo in Warring States Japan.
>>122009870
>Snows as girl is implied to be ghost
>As he lets go of the balloon that symbolizes his memory of her from years past
>As the girl he should be after arrives and is a total bro
How's that for you?
Unsurprisingly, Oshii directed a lot of this series.
>>122005555
HOLY FUCK
DUB-DUB-QUADS
breaking bad confirmed for best show of all time
>>122009942
That's not so bad. It's just the timing of the rain/snow seems so convenient.
I recall it raining afterMaes Hughesdies in Fullmetal Alchemist and I fucking winced.
>>122009845
Slavery wasn't a form of narrative.
>>122006512
>>122006542
BESERK.
I know im gonna get a lot of shit for this, but is the manga better or the anime? I'm actually up to date with the manga, give or take a few chapters cuz busy recently, but is it worth watching the anime?
Urobuchi's works are tragedies. One just needs to explore the themes a little more to realise this.
The Golden Age Arc of Berserk definitely seems like a tragedy to me. I have not gotten far with the Manga though I plan to eventually, but from where the movies and anime series left us off I'm assuming the continuation isn't just sunshine and rainbows
>>122010106
The manga is a masterpiece. The anime is just ok.
>>122009870
as a music persom I am actually most offended by the inevitable string swells or piano that always accompany this type of scene as if cueing the audience "HEY IDIOTS YOU SHOULD FEEL SAD HERE THIS IS A SAD SCENE" and this overly blatant attempt at emotional manipulation always prompts a revulsion that takes me out of the immersion. This shit is to cheap drama what basically a laugh track is to cheap comedy
>>122005911
What's a "VN" ?
Why the fuck would I watch anime to see something sad?
Why the hell wouldn't I watch for anything other than interesting characters and fun?
>>122010366
Lurk Moar
>>122010366
Somewhere between a game and a book. Exactly where between the two it lies tends to vary by title.
>>122010144
The anime got me into the manga when I was 15.
I was feeling utter despair after the last two episodes.
Then I fapped when I saw how many chapters were already out.
Now I wanna slap Miura for being a perfectionist asshole
>>122010454
>perfectionist
>implying he's not just fapping to idolm@ster all day
>>122010302
Agreed. The overuse of dramatic orchestration has made it really cringy in the context of a tragic situation. If there has to be music, something understated works best nowadays.
>>122010366
Visual Novel.
Basically a glorified picture book, because once you're NEET enough to be reading them regularly, you've lost all ability to think for yourself and have no imagination.
>>122010427
On /a/ ? No way. Only episodic visits with recovery time in between
>>122010439
>>122010500
Thanks. I'll avoid these things.
>>122010528
There's some genuinely good ones out there, but they generally come down far more on the game side.
Even though everyone on here seems to hate it but I felt Mirai Nikki could have been pretty strong on this side if it hadn't pulled the ova and the ending of the last episode.
The constant switch between a grasp of hope( like him suddenly having real friends) and the hammer of fate which ultimately denied everything he wished for, while cursing him with the resulting neverending loneliness was actually very captivating.
>>122007343
I was looking to see if somebody brought this one up. Togame's story is basically a classic tragedy, although the MC's is a story of growth that is motivated by the tragedy.
Tragedy, huh?
Tragedy in a play is nice.
Tragedy in anime is shit.
That's just my opinion though.
>>122005531
Gunbuster's not a tragedy, not even talking about Coach or Admiral Takaya or Noriko.
Just because there's a sad element to an ending doesn't make the whole story a tragedy, there's a difference.
>>122009721
I like those stories, especially when the MC sees through his ambitions even when the entire world turns against him.
>>122004894
But that's fucking wrong, retard. Tragedies have been ingrained into other genres that it's not as noticeable at first. People mention Breaking Pleb as an example.
Nobody said bokurano ? Holy shit
>>122009892
>>122011257
Nevermind.
Umineko is a tragedy even though R07 claims it's a bittersweet ending
>>122005911
What VN are you even referring to?
I've literally never played a VN that has 3 out of 5 of those.
>>122009941
Not Macbeth, but there's Japanese film based on King Lear. Although the setting and the characters itself was changed to fit in the era of Warring States, Samurai, and Daimyo; most of the plotline is still the same.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ran_%28film%29
>>122011876
>anime
>>122004817
The Tokyo Ghoul manga ended in tragedy and the anime probably will as well.
>>122011371
>Umineko is a tragedy
Trying to read it sure brought tears to my eyes.
>>122009941
Macbeth would make a great anime.
Watch Throne of Blood by Kurosawa. It's basically Macbeth in Japan.
>>122011371
More mystery rather than tragedy.
>>122012005
whoops.. forgot that word.
>>122011371
The fact that it went full shounenshit in EP8 sure was a great tragedy, especially after fairly decent EP7.
>>122004817
No. Baccano still hasn't gotten a second season.
>>122011876
>>122012123
So Kurosawa managed to adapt two Shakespearean tragedy.
Anime just doesn't know how to do proper drama and tragedy. It almost always comes off hackneyed and contrived.
>>122009997
>>122009942
>>122009870
Honestly, I don't think it's so bad. It's kind of like the chorus popping out and telling us "Thus ends the life of Hero main/ whose life was naught but tons of pain" in that a non-character being is telling us the nature of his tragedy. The sky weeps, or the clouds part, and all is revealed in that character's final moment.
>>122008194
>-Death Note's not really a tragedy because Light's a villain protagonist and not a tragic hero.
Death Note can be argued to be following Shakespearean tragedies. It's more in line with others like Macbeth and King Lear in that regard. And his name getting written into Ryuk's book is pretty much the epitome of a classic tragic end.
"Hero" doesn't mean "good guy" in this context so Light being the villian is completely irrelevant to the classification other than "Is he the main character?" and "Is karma coming to bite him in the ass?" It's why over half the thread cites Breaking Bad because to quote Jesse: "[Walt] can't keep getting away with this." Walt rises to Heisenberg, then everything he's worked for comes crashing down and he has only himself to blame.
But DN being a tragedy is probably only secondary in its genre/classification because it's more of a thriller than anything.
And I don't know if I like your interpretation of modern style tragedies. I'd argue it's more of "MC starts in a bad place, and then it gets worse all the way." So if we drew a graph of say, a character's power/accomplishment within the story, a Shakespearean tragedy would be a mountain where the line goes up, hits a peak, then it comes down (usually lower than the starting point) like pic related. A modern tragedy would just be a line going straight down with occasional bumps. Most people don't know the difference so just claim "hurr there's suffering, it must be a tragedy". A typical feel-good story where the good guys get a happily ever after would be a V shape where it goes down, then comes back up.
So to give a handful of random examples of classic tragic heroes/characters (not shows) in animu, we'd have:
- Light in Death Note
- Lelouch in Code Geass R1 (if we ignore R2)
- Togame in Katanagatari (as mentioned by >>122007343)
- Gendo from Evangelion
- I guess Kiritsugu from Fate/Zero (I'm still iffy on this)
I was going to write the other list but 2000 chars. Sorry.
>>122004894
modern people are the tragedies, they don't need more of it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1dmB2z39_8
Every character in umineko has a tragedy.
Coincidentally garo is airing right now and that shits tragic as fuck
>>122004817
Well yeah.
you could go and say that
Clannad: After Story
is quite tragic its just the different kind of tragic you want
>>122009538
Nagisa's death was not caused directly by Tomoya, so Clannad really isn't a tragedy
>>122014133
It's the combination of Nagisa and Ushio's death and all the suffering that came with it that makes people think it's a tragedy but this is just the uninformed opinion of "sad scenes = tragedy".
>>122012389
How many anime have you watched? Honestly now.
>>122012669
>Lelouch in Code Geass R1 (if we ignore R2)
I don't think the fact he pretends to be a villain makes him less of a tragic figure. If anything, he's even more Byronic.
NTR is modern tragedy
>>122013856
>>122010777
>>122009173
>>122008083
>>122007788
>>122006772
>>122006751
I think most of us get it by now
>>122014507
Ehh I dunno about that. He achieved his ambitions and basically got to do everything he wanted to do. We, the audience, know the true story so Lelouch's death wasn't a tragic end at all. It's not the act of pretending he's the villian IMO, it's the fact that it was his plan all along and it worked exactly as he wanted it. R1's end was basically everything he's built and loved crashing down and/or turning on him.
Like, if Light's plan in Death Note for the end was to intentionally get caught and get exposed so that the world that lived in fear rises up against him, defeats him (because he knows he's guaranteed to be killed by Ryuk), then in a fresh bout of released introspection create some sort of morally good utopia, then nobody would argue he's a tragic hero. Part of the formula IIRC involved nothing ultimately going to plan. No happy retirement for King Lear, no crazed teenage sex honeymoon for Romeo+Juliet, no kingdom for Macbeth, and no world peace for Lelouch.
>If anything, he's even more Byronic.
I never heard that term in my advanced high school and entry college literature classes so I don't know what you mean, sorry. Can you explain?
>>122015146
A tragic antihero, to put it simply.
>>122005555
Agreed.
Can't argue with double dubs + quads.
>>122004894
>>122007533
I'll read/ watch a tragedy if the plot is interesting or if it's an account of real life, but not fictional tragedy for the sake of tragedy, which is what a lot of stuff in the genre falls into.
There's already enough tradedy in real life, and lots of books, articles, and documentaries chronicling it, so why would I want my fiction to be about it?
>>122007851
Fate doesn't have
>MC is the only man in existence, of others exist they are pure evil or the best bro of the MC
There are a lot of girls, but guys aren't particularly rare too.
>MC has a super special awesome magic power that may or may not be so super special awesome depending on the power of his friendship level.
He has special powers, yeah, but they kinda suck and everybody around has more special powers than him.
>MC will make ghandi look like a war criminal by refusing to use violence even in the face of death, but will take no action to prevent violence from happening.
Just plain wrong. Even in the first route. Remember how he almost snapped Shinji's neck in cold blood there?
>The girls will solve all the MC's problems for him and then he will pick the worst one.
Arguable. Saber is king of jobbers after the first route and Rin is more of a support than a fighter. Sakura is right out.
If we count Archer as a girl, maybe you're right.
>>122004817
Does Tsukihime count as a tragedy?
And I'm talking about the VN.
The anime certainly is a tragedy of the biggest caliber, though.
>>122005357
>Invisible drum solo
>>122009148
Blast of the Tempest might do the trick.
Does each season of Kaiji count as a tragedy?
Where's the line between an anime that is tragic and an anime that is a tragedy?
>>122004817
>Lost genre
Hardly. It gets shoehorned into fucking everything.
You want tragedy, the anime? Watch Guilty Crown, Evangelion, Madokaif you don't find an albino cat that talks without using it's mouth suspiciousetc.
>>122017412
>implying Kyubey having ulterior motives was supposed to be a shocking twist
Breaking Bad could of been a tragedy if not for a few key points.
- He earns his son a huge amount of wealth by fooling the Black family into thinking they will be assassinated if they don't
- He gives his wife a good defense when he tells her the location of the DEA agents bodies allowing her to bargain for a lessened sentence
-He frees Jessie and kills the slavers who kept him captive. Along with poisoning the chemical suppler woman (I forget her name)
It was a bittersweet ending but not a tragedy.
>>122017412
>shoehorned into fucking everything
>Three examples going back to the 90s that aren't even tragedies
>>122017540
>if they don't transfer the money left to him
>>122017412
> mistaking drama for tragedy
