DAL
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You are currently reading a thread in /a/ - Anime & Manga
You are currently reading a thread in /a/ - Anime & Manga
Date A Live thread
2ch user posts leaked release date for Vol 11 from Dragon Magazine confirming September 20th release.
But nothing else.
If Ellen had better taste in men, you would like her too
>Ellen
>taste
>>110560198
She's killed less people than Origami, that's for sure
>>110560294
Origami did nothing wrong.
>>110560403
Killing her parents was absolutely right I suppose
>>110560294
True, but she's still a psycho bitch.
>>110560462
At least she didn't kill her parents
>>110560002
I figured. Just in time for my first week of exams.
>>110560447
She deserve this for trying to kill the spirits.
>>110560545
How do you know? Her back story hasn't been explained at all yet.
>>110560552
Unless you can read moon, it's just us circlejerking over new art and waiting for translations.
Although we can probably figure out what's going on
>>110560689
We don't know anything about anyone.
>>110560447
And shidou
>>110560545
I wonder why Origami didn't recognize her DEM standard issue pendant during the school trip.
>>110560751
Are you new here? Every volume that has come out has gotten a summary almost immediately on here.
>>110560805
>>110560751
I realized
>>110560800
Muh glasses
>>110560864
dat pendant is still showing
>>110560294
So does tsunako really like this shot of a person looking up at something because it's everywhere
>>110560979
Yes. Tsunako always uses the exact same things
Alright then. That's all I needed.
Season 3 when?
>>110561141
Hopefully never
>>110561141
Hope can either die or live on after movie
>>110561141
When the BDs pass the 10,000 mark.
>>110561212
Yeesh. That won't happen. 6k for volume 1 is already pushing it max. Season 2 should average 4k
>>110561308
You mean BD2?
That's where all the fanservice is
>>110561339
No BD 1 will always do better than the rest. Regardless of content
Final boss will be Shidou's family. Calling it now.
>september
long wait..
>>110560002
Who's ready for lewd inverse Origami?
>>110561831
always re@dy.
>>110561773
This is not the 90's anymore.
>>110561859
Kurumi's arc will end with her about to kiss Shidou but then she gets stabbed in the back Mana. Best way to end her arc.
>>110561908
mana a shit
>>110561773
>Final boss will be Reine's bear
FTFY
>>110561908
>mfw he forgive Kurumi and get the kiss anyway.
>>110561370
Everyone loves the twins though
>>110562089
>twins
Miku is even more popular than them
I fucking hate Miku so much.
I just want to punch her in the cunt.
>>110562172
Cuntpunches are not allowed
>>110562128
>Miku
A shit.
>>110562172
But is Miku more popular than the twins combined?
>>110562277
Probably not combined.
About time
>>110560002
>If Ellen had better taste in men, you would like her too
But I don't. Hopefully Ellen gets put in her place this volume
>>110562727
I doubt it. The only time she's going to be put into her place is when Isaac gets displaced as the villain or when Isaac is finally completing his master plan.
>>110562775
Doesn't mean you can't beat her up
>>110562775
She needs to experience constant losing like Origami did for half the series.
Miku is a nice girl.
As expected
>>110562865
Need the Volume 6 and 7 BDs.
>>110562865
Funny way to spell shite
>>110562865
Nope.
Kill it with fire
So he sticks to the same formula. Go figure. Volume 12 should be December 20th and volume 13 should be March 20th.
Look forward to it
>>110563271
When is DAL going to be done? Would it be possible to make a movie and do some stuff and finish up the series with a 3rd season?
>>110563506
Probably not no. We still are missing 2 spirits and Kurumi is unsealed. So after 11. Figure this. 2 for the 2 spirits each. So that's 4 right there. We're up to 15 volumes minimum. Then we have Kurumi who may or may not be 2 volumes. So 16-17 volumes. And plot has to be completed. People are estimating 18 volumes. And something about the writer being half done when volume 9 came out. So I hate to bring down hopes. But no. There would be no way to finish the series unless you have 4-5 seasons. And that is not happening
>>110563506
Not at all, if we're going by anime-light novel adaptation patterns, it's one volume = three episodes.
A regular season with 12 episodes won't make sense if S3 covers 8-10 because 10 is a major cliffhanger.
Like >>110563609 said
Vol 11 will be about Origami's sealing
Future arcs we still have Kurumi and 2 spirits yet to be seen and a final arc.
Keep in mind that Tachibana seems to be gravitating toward making a new spirit's arc 2 volumes.
>>110563724
>>110563609
Damn.. that sort of deters me from picking it up. I think I'd rather wait until the LN is done to read it. Rather than have these long waits. and from >>110563271 I take it's 3 volumes a year?? So 2016 would be the earliest it could be done. Yeah I'll wait. Also. It's always kind of a downer when an anime will never get to finish
>>110563724
At this point, I get the feeling that the last two spirits are going to be more plot based and less harem hijinks based, considering their positions. Though I wonder how they're going to introduce the spirit captured by DEM.
>>110563937
Why would you do that anon, suffer with us and join the fun.
>>110564001
Wasn't that spirit not even there though?
>>110564001
It's just a spirit crystal. And it's powers brought upon the Realizer tech that we know today.
>>110564094
It wasn't at Tengu City DEM headquarters. If anything, I suspect that the captured spirit actually resides in Britain.
>>110564094
It's captured by DEM but she could be in any building they own. Preferably somewhere not in Japan since DEM is apparently Europe-based
>>110564151
Are you me
>>110563937
Well. I think the second season was always planned. anything after this would have to depend on popularity/sales. I think a 3rd season would have always been a long shot anyway. Shows rarely get those. But I figured the anime would never be able to officially end. I know some suspected an anime original end for season 2. Obviously that didn't happen. Now it's the movie
>>110564232
And usually, those series with movie could either be filler, or non-canon.
>>110562705
my dick is at 12 o'clock
>>110564158
Perhaps the reason why Mana was found in Britain by DEM was because she was actually traveling with the captured spirit before hand.
>>110564158
>>110564151
Possibly. But I have my doubts about that. If they already have a spirit. What was the point of capturing, and inverting Tohka? Why would you go through all that work. If you already have a spirit.
Some pain is fine
>>110564472
No it's not..
>>110564448
Why risk it? I assume they have her properly sedated and they would lose a lot if they something went wrong. They only wanted to see an Inversing happen, Westcott and Ellen just left after Tohka went bye bye
>>110564535
You can't not expect some pain with Kurumi
>Yoshino: She thinks the scariest thing in the world is people who suddenly hand out tissues (flyers, but Yoshino doesn't know that) when she's out walking.
I want to play with her all day
>>110564535
>...
>>110564581
I still don't know. If Ellen and Westcott are confident enough that they can take on inverse Tohka, Physically one of the strongest spirits out there, then whats stopping them from doing anything with said captured spirit? It seems like a lot of work to me to get something they already have. There may be special conditions. But to me it just doesn't make a lot of sense. Or really line up with the type of character Ellen and Westcott have. They don't fear spirits.
>>110564824
Considering how they did actually capture a spirit, and probably one of the first spirits at that, there's definitely some truth to their strength. Though the real question is how they captured a spirit and developed realizer tech. Seems like the chicken and the egg.
>>110564448
>>110564824
I agree it's suspicious. But remember. They SPECIFICALLY targeted Tohka here. They wanted her. None of the others were ever a part of their plan. I think it's plausible if you look at it that way. They were always only going after Tohka in that arc. Even when they come back in 9 Ellen asks if they're going to go for <princess> again. Instead they elect to take down Natsumi and wait longer for the others. But keep that in mind. Tohka was the target
>>110564824
>>110564926
If that's the case, the Spirit had no one hunting it down so it had no real reason to fight against anybody. Probably got tricked
>>110564928
Tohka is the most unstable due to low intelligence
>>110564975
Well then I doubt it's the assumed number 2 if that happened. That one is supposed to have wisdom in it's symbol and will probably be the smartest spirit.
>>110565042
I think you mean Natsumi.
>>110565042
I don't really think that's the reason. They could have easily grabbed Yoshino and taken Yoshinon away if they want unstable.
And it would have been easier.
>>110565057
We're thinking it's the Yellow one, time to post the chart
>>110565108
Well she lost Yoshino and cried over it, Tohka is just that more unstable
>>110565057
I would say instead of being tricked, she had something held hostage. Something that she'd be completely willing to sacrifice everything for. Like how Shidou is to Tohka.
>>110565206
Just dropping this here. Actually not sure about the colors, and specially not sure if I should have left the suits black.
As usual, feel free to say if anything should be changed or something. Will be away from the thread for a bit but will fix whatever is suggested when I get back.
>>110565042
>>110565206
No. It's not stability. They could have taken any girl and used shidou as a key to inverse. They did not obviously. It's not about how stable you are. It's about how close to shidou you are and I think it's safe to say what they did there would inverse any of the current sealed spirits. Obviously it's something else
>>110565310
Fuck
Yes
I requested this back then, love ya colorbro. I personally like the suit's colors but I guess some complementary color variations could be possible if isn't asking too much. Kotori's hair looks darker but I love it either way/
>>110565306
>>110565206
So gray/silver hair and a blonde then?
>>110565479
Indeed
>>110565504
She would need a number 2 in her name. No such thing is currently there
>>110565563
I didn't mean anything by it anon. But if the spirit was truly smart, would she really go around showing off her name?
But that teddy bear is shady as fuck
>>110565719
Yes, However I don't think the number thing is ever acknowledged in the series. It's only the author who does that. It's to indicate which number a spirit in the series corresponds to. Never noticed by the characters themselves. But you would have other indicators such as if she is already a spirit she would have spirit eyes. Unless she has a hidden name and is going to accept a crystal.
>>110565719
It's obvious Tachibana is leading us to believe that Reine/Teddy is the final boss when someone minor character will take that spot.
>>110566069
>Tsunako sameface
>>110566069
Leave it to Tsunako to make the side characters pretty too.
>>110566121
Based Tsunako
I wonder if her friends know they're acquaintances with a goddess
>>110566107
Well she is Ellen's sister. Though I have to wonder what was the point of setting her up to fight Ellen later.
>>110566183
I'm sure
>>110566216
>she has the same voice as Ellen
>she's actually Phantom
>she's been watching through the teddy bear
I realize that Ellen is +30 years old.
Magic must cancel out aging effects
>>110566395
I'm 100% sure Mana said that realizer tech cancels out aging.
>>110566395
It's her suit.
>>110566395
Why did Jessica look like such an old bag then?
>>110566474
I'm only 83% certain of this
>>110566474
Well shit.
That explains all the girls in AST and DEM
>>110566504
You need to be a fairly strong Wizard to do it. A really stupid theory is that Mana is actually older than Shidou but has been using magic to appear younger for some reason.
>>110566504
Season 2 looked like shit.
>>110566474
Ironically it also destroys your body and takes your lifespan
>>110566635
Only if you overclock and/or us mods. The standard AST shit won't affect you health.
>>110566504
>>110566803
In fact, it makes them useless.
>>110566635As a scientist, I'd appreciate it if they elaborated more on this technology and sci fi aspects. It always makes things more interesting. I'd like to know what makes spirits bodies so durable when they share the same blood and seemingly same bodies as humans.
>>110566848
Magic. Literally. Science won't help you out of that one.
>>110566803
Because it's literally just a powersuit for soldiers. Anything DEM is more than that. It increases your abilities and makes you stronger, faster, better in combat etc. So naturally having your body pumped full of magic does that
>>110566848
Considering how it hurts Shidou whenever he uses a spirits power, I would assume that a spirit is structured differently. Perhaps the sephira crystal acts as a sort of control that directs the flow of magic efficiently.
>>110560002
Kotori best DAL.
>>110566894
What is the "magic?" and why can't DEM soldiers and strong wizards handle it, when normal girls who become spirits can?
>>110566928
I think the crystal is the only explanation. It alters you. But when sealed clearly those effects are almost all gone. Though what really throws me off is Kotori's body can't handle her powers
>>110567003
Mana is best imouto.
>>110567005
Sephira crystals, daughter
>>110567005
I don't know if you can get more in-depth with describing the effects on the body. Obviously the crystal is the source of power, giving the spirits "maryoku" (magical power). Then Shidou seals the power and the body altering effect, but leaves the crystal behind. Any more explanation would have describe the effect on cells and entire body systems etc.
>>110567005
I assume that sephira crystals sort of have a mind of their own. Probably a lingering remnant of the original spirit. Plus I would assume there's some affinity to sephira crystals, just as how there's affinity with Realizer suits, considering how both Origami and Kotori seem to suffer side effects from their power.
>>110567184
Did Origami suffer side affects from her power?
>>110567264
Shitty targeting system
>>110567184
>Origami
You're talking about the realizer right?
>this thread
>>110567539
It's actual discussion
>>110567569
I'm about 90% lost or lacking an understanding of the topics
>>110567264
No, and Kotori's problems are easily explained just by saying Efreet is a blood thirsty monster.
>>110567594
Anime only I assume?
>>110567650
and none of these other crystals have traits??
>>110567650
So crystals perhaps modify behavior?Looking forward to a new Origami after the mindbreak is over
>>110567723
It doesn't modify behavior.
>>110567851
Probably brings out something within a Sephira Crystal
>>110567851
Personality or whatever. Gives them an interesting personality quirk when in full power.
>>110567677
Well based on Diva's name I assume it likes to sing, but so does Miku.
>>110567723
I assume it only when they're unseeled, unless...
>>110567677
>>110567723
No. Kotori's specifically has issues. The sephirot she corresponds to has issues with control. It deals with judgment and can have difficulty determining what is just and what is not. It's an untameable fire.
>>110568012
Diva is a codename. Efreet is also a codename so we're talking about Camael
>>110568012
Diva is just a nickname given. Like all the others.
>>110568054
>>110568068
How about
*based on Gabriel's powers
then.
>>110568018
source
>Geburah is the sephirot of Restraint, which takes away that which is unnecessary in the cosmos, destroys the wicked, fights evil and injustice, and maintains an equilibrium with Chesed, Lovingkindness. However, it is obvious to see that when this force is out of balance, it becomes too destructive, and burns that which should not be burned
>>110567539
>>110567594
You're not alone
>>110568219
The amount of sense that makes is kind of spooky
>>110568054
Efreet is a pretty strange nickname
>Miku
>It is often associated with the Moon, because it is the sphere which reflects the light of all the other sephirot into Malkuth, and it is associated with the sexual organs, because it is here that the higher spheres connect to the earth.
>>110568483
Not really. If you know what it is it does make sense sort of.
<Princess>
<Hermit>
<Nightmare>
<Efreet>
<Berserk>
<Diva>
<Witch>
<Angel> are what we have so far and all work pretty well for the said spirit
>>110568584
It's a penis traditionally
>>110568483
Based off the common misconception of Ifrit
>>110568584
She did show with the moon being prominent in the background in her arc (first appearance and later against Tohka).
>Sexual organs
I guess her Miku's count
>>110568584
You think that's bad? See the inverse
>The qliphothic aspect of Yesod is represented by a distorted or destructive sense of fertility. On a plain physical level this signifies the sexual urge which is never satisfied but always demanding new and stronger stimuli and thus consuming vitality and creativity without offering anything in return.
>>110568690
That's so lame
>>110568788
Inverse Miku is even hornier?
>>110568690
What's with "maji hiku wa" stare?
>>110568849
That's probably one thing the writer didn't actually take. Tohka's is pretty bad too
>>110568889
>Tohka's is pretty bad
It's the queen of whores. The reason Yesod's is so bad is because of the influence of Lilith in the sphere.
>>110568690
Gross
>>110568941
>>110568889
I love shit like this, please go on
>>110565479
>and blonde
>>110568889
>>110568941
>Malkuth
I understand nothing.
>>110569134
Malkuth inverses to Lilith.
However, the only thing you need to understand about Malkuth is it's a kingdom and it's element can be all of earth and it's kindom is pretty much the universe. The associated image is a young woman(typically a bride with a veil) on a THRONE
That's all you need to know about malkuth. Other than that it's too confusing with all the filter things etc
>>110569080
Oh I would have a laugh
>>110569275
Malkuth isn't just a filer, it serves as a guide almost. There are endless texts about the thing in history. In DAL it's used to contrast Kether(Origami) of course. 1-10.
>>110568690
Are there any more of these?
>Spirit No.6
>It has the common association of "Spirituality", "Balance", "Integration", "Beauty", "Miracles", and "Compassion".
Sounds like a shrine maiden.
>>110569275
I'll just go with it.
>>110569275
>throne
Nice. And I guess Keter is associated with a crown?
>>110569588
You mean sounds like Reine.
>>110569792
Well Reine isn't associated with gold/yellow and doesn't have 6 in her name
>>110569588
>>110569864
>>110569792
Remember only some are used. Natsumi's is also associated with reproduction and beauty but obviously we know that's not the case. It can be atypical from the norm
>>110565206
So spirit no.2 might really be Shidou's mother, considering how it's the connection between god and man. Spirit and human.
>>110569914
Well beauty makes sense, considering how focused she is on that aspect.
>>110569914
Natsumi's adult form kind of is, and if I remember correctly it said something about wickedness also, which translates into the witch thing.
>>110570055
Her adult form isn't really her. It's fabricated by her because she wants to look like that. The only true Natsumi is the mini one with messy hair
>>110570122
Yeah, but it's her ideal form which still takes the aspects of reproduction and beauty. So we may see something unusual for the remaining two spirits, especially considering how Tachibana has been going with the '2 volumes a spirit' thing lately.
>>110570233
From the looks of it, spirit no.6 is probably going to be the villain considering how it seems her sephira is mostly associated with God's plan while no.2 is probably going to be related to DEM.
>>110570233
I don't really like that 2 volume thing to be honest. Seems like a big waste of time. To do that in Miku and Natsumi's arc and reveal almost nothing about the plot is near infuriating. The only thing that has set 10-11 apart is it looks like we may get backstory.
>>110570356
>reveal almost nothing about the plot is near infuriating
If we don't get some major insight by Volume 12, I won't know what to say. After 11, we'll have a human to spirit to inverse and hopefully a resolution. There has to be a somewhat big reveal somewhere.
>>110570516
Yep. Couldn't agree more. We're being led through a story while not fully understanding anything that's happening. No motives for anything at all
>>110565440
Darker? It kinda looks about the same color as >>110567003, though.
As for the suits, I might give a try to an alternative but by complementary colors do you mean complementary to their hair or to each other?I really struggle with anything that doesn't have canon colors.
>>110570356
Honestly, I don't really mind the format but I agree it's too long while revealing way too little. However, it's also true there are important hints in basically all volumes. The problem is how with the release schedule and such it all seems too far apart. I do think we're getting to the part where things will start unraveling but I'll be getting a little annoyed if I'm wrong on that.
>>110570516
>human to spirit to inverse
Naw, doing the same trick twice isn't gonna cut it. Just the resolution will do.
I trust the next spirits will have something packed, and also, the Kurumi resolution's gonna be bigger. Heck, maybe she won't be sealed at all, since that might pose some risk. But should Shidou successfully seal her, then it's quite understandable this will come last, along with some revelations.
>>110571031
I think he was saying we'll have that after 11 as in, it'll happen in 11, which it certainly will.
>>110571127
Yes, he probably meant Origami. She was already suspected of being a spirit since the beginning.
>>110571216
What I meant was we'll see the differences between human Origami and spirit Origami for the first time at the resolution of Volume 11. Then we might some DEM's plans with almost all the spirits being around (while they have another one).And a Phantom wish cutscene.I think it'd be bad if we didn't get something new out of it.
>>110570994
These aint complimentary colors but yellow for Kotori and light pink for Yoshino would look pretty nice
>>110571550
The circumstances are certainly nice for new things to be revealed right now. If we don't get at least some of that, it'll be a disappointment.
>>110571999
As the pic is right now, wouldn't that mingle too much with the background? Lack of contrast and all. Not to mention they're clearly intended as at least dark colors in the original pic.
>>110572092
Just color it with their corresponding colors, that's all. Nothing to worry about.
>>110572155
I guess I'll give that a try, then.
>>110560447
>started watching DAL BD today since new season sucks
>marathon to end of S1 e11 just a couple minutes ago
>take a break and wander over to /a/
>click DAL thread because pretty pictures
>get spoiled within first 3 posts
>mfw
t-thanks /a/...
>>110572606
Oh yeah lots of spoilers in here m8
>>110572606
This you first time on 4chan?
>>110572606
Spoiler is a spoiler but TobICHI Origami
>>110572606
Watch out, you'll summon the spoiler anon
>>110574268
Retard.
>>110574268
I want to spoil him more but everything else is just to minor to have an effect.
Maybe the Tohka rape, but even that is small fry comparatively.
>>110560002
Season 3 when?
>>110575208
NEVER
>>110574891
Tohka deserves better.
>>110575303
Nothing happens. It's only a threat.
>>110575233
But that is what you guys said about season 2 and we got that.
>>110575378
>anime-onlyfag
>>110575591
No, stop with that.
>>110575575
>yoshinon teaching yoshino how to suck dicks
>>110575591
>anime-onlyfag believing fake spoilers
>>110575771
Yoshinon trying to make Yoshino a proper wife for Shido
>>110575748
>replying to shitposters
>>110575848
>>110575575
Why is Yoshinon so lewd?
>>110576011
To seduce Shido, she is a smart slut.
>>110576011
She IS Yoshino's true self, so that's natural.
>>110576144
That doesn't make sense to me
>>110560002
Only 2 more months until we get this again.
>>110576986
>>110575575
No that isn't. Season 2 was announced right when the series ended and 2ch had rumors before anyway. Season 2 was always planned. Why they didn't just do 2 cour I will never know instead of wasting a whole year to go bankrupt
Miku is worst girl.
Miku is a nice girl.
>>110577035
See you in Volume 15.
>>110576168
Not the same guy buy Yoshinon is Yoshino's second personality.
>>110575303
Tohka deserves suffering.
>>110577176
Never.
>>110577128
How. She's literally so shy if a person she doesn't know talks to her she will convulse like having a seizure and barely say anything. But then she's nice. How is Yoshinon her? It just seems so fucking strange and not even possible
>>110577261
Well Yoshinon isn't exactly a living creature. It's what Yoshino wants to be.
>>110568629
<Phantom>
>>110577261
Never heard of split personality disorders?
What I wanna know is where she got the puppet and what led her to create that personality.
>>110577531
>where she got the puppet
I think that if there a few things to be unexplained in DAL, this will be one of them.
>>110577176
Bestiality?
>>110577531
That not how DID works at all.
Reminder that this little girl over here is perfect
I want a Yoshino
Also good to hear we have news
>>110560002
Bitch is hot, but she's a really shitty character.
DEM really needs to make place for some better villains.
>>110577755
There are none. Every villain in this is forced and stupidly cliche it's awful
>>110565310
Anon, I love you
>>110564472
>dentist Kurumi anywhere near your dick
There are some borders you really shouldn't cross.
>>110577844
post the crying one
>>110577755
Well after what happened last volume I wonder how they're gonna approach finding someone new, or maybe just forget about it entirely.
>>110577814
It's only forced because everybody remotely competent but Ellen was taken out of the picture.
>>110577899
Why would you want it tho?
Oh and Yoshinon's personality is just the idealized personality Yoshino wants to have, but as with pretty much any person, she overcompensates for her shyness and ends up with an overly sarcastic lewd personality.
Real Yoshino is just a cute little girl, mix her shyness with Yoshinon's sarcasm and lewdness and it balances out.
>>110577972
There is no one else competent.
>>110577972
Ellen is a threat mostly because Spirits have their powers sealed. Rest of DEM was never a real threat.
It really feels forced because if all spirits unsealed they could get rid of DEM in like 5 minutes.
>>110578022
It doesn't work like that. Clearly the puppet isn't the one talking. It's like she's using it as a buffer. But then it doesn't fucking make sense that she'd be so shy and insecure. Yoshinon is extremely different from how she supposedly is. Which is she?
am i banned
>>110578039
>>110578119
I think you're forgetting about a certain group.
>>110578223
They are complete shit and were never worth anything
>>110578148
If you're a Tohkofag then yes.
>>110578223
They were never worth anything. A single pissed spirit could murder all of them.
>>110578288
That doesn't even make sense
>>110578349
Doubtful that a retarded spirit could stand up to the might of humanity.
>>110578390
ANY spirit. They're so pathetic it's not even worth mentioning them
>>110578223
I wish they had been killed off. I would have laughed at that quite a bit. So fucking useless. But of course no killing is allowed in this series
>>110577715
As if.
>>110578665
does she get a sex scene in the VN?
>>110578753
Just wait for it. They'll be relevant.
>>110578813
No. There are none in the VN to begin with and she is not even close to a dateable character
>>110578753
>no killing is allowed in this series
>>110578885
If a spirit is just killing AST members off you're going to have a hard time selling that as a likeable character. As opposed to accidentally blowing your parents inside out
>>110577659
Slut.
>>110579164
Kinda funny that you say that when Kurumi exists
