![maxresdefault[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/6wF3b47.jpg "maxresdefault[1].jpg")
opinion on the whole gambling situation going on at Valve? Personally I think it's disgusting
please respond
>>343787774
Someone should sue valve. They've been doing shady stuff for too long
>>343787774
Only retards and kids "gamble" on it. Don't really care.
No "SJWs" are involved so /v/ doesn't care, despite it being actual corruption in the industry, and even illegal on top of that.
>>343787774
you literally only care because le coughing jew man told you to care about it.
fucking neck yourself.
If other people want to be retarded with their money it's not my problem
>>343787774
very obviously, this is nothing to do with valve and entirely to do with the other, unafilliated websites involved, just in case anybody takes OP's awful shitpost at face value.
>>343790173
>>343787774
Exactly. It's like blaming microsoft because someone uses windows to hack.
it was set up like a slot machine from the start
at least this might force valve to release something to get the attention away from it
![glenn-greenwald-13[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/7waKChn.jpg "glenn-greenwald-13[1].jpg")
>>343789920
sometimes a jew isn't wrong
>>343787774
>tfw use these shitty gambling sites
>tfw inventory worth a few thousand
Fuck what anybody says I can cash this shit out on a 3rd party site and buy a used car with my inventory
>>343787774
If enough people care it could fuck them out of microtransactions and then they would have to make a game
Maybe now we'll get actual content updates that aren't Spin To Win crates, asinine operations and a revolver that was bullshit for a day (and now so useless you get votekicked just for buying it.)
I think fan duel was a much more fucked up situation considering how many celebrities were endorsing it and how popular it got through adds. Fan duel was straight up illegal Gambling, money for money with known higher ups even participating And making hundreds of thousands of dollars. Not some 12 year with 12 cents trying to get a slightly less stupid looking skin. Or some immoral Chad bros on YouTube. I thought Ethan's video was hilarious tho basically just fucked those guys' hardwork completely but fuck those Chad bros.
>>343790521
you're right. but this particular faggot isn't. he's a pandering piece of shit who'd sell his own wife to get another few hundred thousand subscribers. he already turned his back on the people who got him to where he is today.
>>343787774
Only especially shitty game design that is more concerned with micro-transactions than fun can enable this sort of crap.
I used to worry about the Microsoft Store locking Steam out and Microsoft having a monopoly but after seeing what Valve likes to do when they have control of the market I'm not sure Microsoft taking over would be any worse. It might even be better. Fuck Valve.
>>343787774
What's going on? I seem to be out of the loop.
>>343791303
If you can't consistently see through Ethan's constant bullshit and unfair framing you're probably at least 12 years old. But if you actually care about him bullshitting a little bit to make a funny video you need to chill on how serious you view YouTube
G2A still gets endorsement even if they knowingly sell stolen shit
>>343792502
How do people even manage to get game codes stolen? I mean, you buy the game, get the code, use the code and you're done.
>>343792367
>Stupid people gambling using CS:GO items worth thousnads.
>Youtubers make a gambling site and scam people into betting said CS:GO items
>People whining "THINK ABOUT THE CHILDREN" and want to blame valve on top of the actual dumbfucks making those gambling sites.
Valve is moneygrubbing, but they don't need to mess with gambling and this shit, they already set up a 7 to 15 days time for the steam market transactions to go throigh and parents shouldn't let their kids use their credit cards and play CS:GO anyways.
>>343792367
Youtube clowns marketed a gambling website to their 20 million or so combined subscribers pretending to make mad cash on the website they shilled.
Only they never told anyone that they are the founders and owners of the business that runs the gambling website and rigged all their videos.
Somehow this is Valve's fault because they let you use Steam's API to create a login for your website.
>>343792454
This shit's been building for like a week now. Syndicate and Tmartin were constantly coming up after people found out they owned CSGO Lotto.
Ethan was just a big YouTuber who shined light on it, since Scarce believed everything they said.
>>343792454
the thing is tho he only started doing that bullshit when he went to new york and started leeching off of jontron and filthy frank's cancerous reddit userbases. he's flat out not funny anymore. he just has to take a sound byte and repeat it over and over and over until his subreddit makes it into a meme. before he moved to new york and made his subreddit he actually made creative and clever content.now it's just
>ANOTHER ONE
>I WON'T LIE, THIS IS ME WHEN _________ (cant believe hes STILL harping on this one)
>SLAMMIN
>IM ETHAN BRADBERRY!
It's just inane garbage repeated ad nauseam so his reddit army spreads it for him.
>Someone brings attention to a fucked up issue that needs to be fixed
>People shit on it
I don't get it.
You don't have to like the person but what is wrong with agreeing with their opinion if they are right?
>>343792762
>>343792880
I see. Valve is shit these days, it's true, but if they don't have anything to really do with it, I couldn't exactly blame them.
>>343793021
Nobody is denying that the youtubers scamming people isn't scummy.
We are arguing that Valve isn't the one in fault here and people that fall for this kind of stuff should know better anyways. Same thing with people that get caught up in pyramid schemes and "X steps to success" scams.
>>343793021
The guys who owned the website have like 15,000,000 combined subscribers
I think some of them post here
>>343793021
/v/ is made up of children and people with childish mentalities. They think agreeing with anyone someone they don't like is admitting that they're best buds or something.
>>343793086
They dn't even need to. Why would they bother messing with gambling if theya re alreayd making tons of money with their own sotre and in-game microtransactions.
Hell, if you make more than 100 bucks in the steam market, you ahev to give your personal in fo to steam, for taxation purposes. So underage kids would have to commit indetity fraud to actually get and/or spend enough money to get problems.
>>343793329
Or, you know, this: >>343793279
Maybe don't be a condescending cocksucking faggot for a change, you piece of shit.
>>343792904
Yeah I agree the memes are getting a little fucking annoying and sometimes I wish Hila would stfu. But they're like 30 years old dude they're not exactly young dudes just trying to make funny videos by copying tim and Eric. What they think is funny might not be what you think is funny anymore they have like 30 year old cheesy parent that just discovered the Internet humor now. I still think their new videos are funny but Ethan pretty much has the same mindset now as my step dad who shows me 9gag memes constitently. It's not malicious they're just a cheesy 30 year old couple and that's what makes them laugh
>>343793086
All they do is provide an API, that anyone can use, along with developer help to those that request it.
Thing is, there is no identifier when someone requests developer support from Valve when it comes to API issues. One of the arguments is that Valve willingly gave help to these gambling sites, when in reality they simply assisted someone that asked for help on the API forums available to developers.
Normies love to go on and on about that VideoGameAttorney guy, and his heart is in the right place, but this is a suit he's pretty much fucked up taking on because there's no case again Valve. They don't actively support the websites and have done a lot stop much of the RMT going on. The only little carrot is the API issue, and that's easily defended as it's open source and Valve does not require personal information from those that use it. (Signing in through the API also has a huge wall of text that explains they're not responsible and that you should never trust websites offering services in exchange for money.)
Now, if they want to go the angle that RNG loot boxes are a scam and gambling in themselves, then I'm all for setting that straight and ultimately killing that cancer off. But Valve is far from the first and only company to use those. Looking at you, Korean Publishers.
>>343793279
>people that fall for this kind of stuff should know better anyways. Same thing with people that get caught up in pyramid schemes and "X steps to success" scams.
This is not fair.
This sort of stuff exploits the way the human brain works. You yourself aren't immune to same form of exploitation, you just didn't happen to fall for it this particular time.
It's why gambling is heavily regulated and we have laws against things like pyramid schemes same as we do highly addictive drugs, humans are just too vulnerable to them because of the way we are wired.
>>343792718
>eastern european/asian person buys stolen credit card data for ten cents to a dollar per card
>uses it to buy game codes from the dev or other marketplaces
>resells the codes on G2A to get the codes to cash
>developer gets a chargeback, sees which keys correspond to the transactions where the credit card holder claimed fraud
>reports these keys to steam
>steam revokes the game keys
>>343794168
This. Valve knows how to cover their ass and they don't care about the gambling sites. It took the EU courts several years to make them even start giving refunds, these API issues isn't nearly enough to make a serious case.
>>343794287
Or, you know, use the internet, do some research, etc.
It's like defending rapists because they have the natural instinct to rape. Don't do it, simple as that.
I used to bet on DOTA2 liunge years ago, and then I stopped, because it got boring and to get the big stuff, I'd have to spend money to get big items to bet.
And that's fucking stupid. There you go, self-control, that's hard to muster, right? To NOT spend money.
>>343794523
>EU gets its refunds
>UK smashes it into tiny pieces
Gaben has spoken.
>>343794343
This. And it hurts the customers that live in said areas and buy the keys for personal use, because that discourages developers to lower the price for poorer markets.
>>343787774
People are just mad because Valve came up with selling skins at large first.
Personally I believe they're amazing to basically just make up their own economy of getting money from literally every market trade. They're gaining money by doing nothing at this point. Milions of money.
>>343793764
I think the point of >>343793021 and >>343793329
completely flew over your head. Thanks for making my point, kid.
>>343794128
>they have like 30 year old cheesy parent that just discovered the Internet humor now.
They literally have reddit humor, you just described reddit humor. They aren't oblivious to the internet, ethan used to post on 4chan for gods sake. They used to be funny, but now they sold out and pander to the lowest common denominator. It's not malicious but it's insulting. They didn't magically lose a step and revert into old farts when they magically started getting bigger. They made the decision to go for the lazy, easy, repeatable quips that make great for reddit memes.
>>343795205
It's even better when you realize the skin economy is THE best solution to the microtransaction debacle.
Devs get funding for future updates, people can spend large sums of cash and have something to show for it, and best of all it doesn't affect the balance of the game.
/v/ will still bitch though because they're fucking communists and think a company making money is the greatest sin on earth.
>>343795205
Yup, their cards system is genius. You give cards, those people sell the cards, those cards can be used to make badges and cosmetic items and then youc an turn said items into gems to craft more cards.
That's a closed economy right there, and valve gets money from each transaction along the way. They don't care about this gambling shit ebcause theya re already racking up the money through their cards and items economy.
>>343795547
>>343795550
Glad to see someone who isn't a communist scum around here.
>>343795369
Please, I'm all ears. They didn't make any point besides "Why are people not agreeing with them, despite them not being right?" and just making it about us disliking the people presenting the argument.
I've always thought the keys/roulette shit was dumb. as. hell. and I still don't get why anyone participates in it.
>>343795205
Agree. I also don't understand why in that video they're whining about 13 years olds buying into it? What kind of a parent lets their 13 years olds have access to credit cards?
>>343787774
The lawsuit is over Valve funding gambling sites or allowing users to link their Steam accounts to gambling sites, therefore creating an unregulated environment in which kids can gamble or be scammed.
You have to be 18 to buy CSGO in the first place. I'm not a lawyer so I don't actually know shit, but I don't think there's anything you can do about kids lying about their age.
>>343796007
Also, the steam market requires you to give your personal information after you reach a certain amount of money exchanged, there's now an authentication system that takes 7 to 15 days to make a transaction on the market now and the fact that you'd need a credit/debit card to even use the market, things underage children can't have anyways.
Children wouldn't even be affected by this if their parents actually kept tabs on their online expenses.
>>343794798
>Or, you know, use the internet, do some research, etc.
This places an unreasonable knowledge burden on people for it to be put into practice for everything.
>It's like defending rapists because they have the natural instinct to rape. Don't do it, simple as that.
You don't understand the nature of compulsion. You brain is subject to all kinds of influences, your consciousness does not operate in a vacuum.
>I used to bet on DOTA2 liunge years ago, and then I stopped, because it got boring and to get the big stuff, I'd have to spend money to get big items to bet.
Good for you. That doesn't mean you are immune, it just means at that point in time that particular form of persuasion was ineffective.
Sorry, but you are a mere human, the same as the rest of us, and are vulnerable to all kinds of exploits. There is, however, an easy and practical solution to all this, it's called the law and sensible regulation.
>>343796356
>There is, however, an easy and practical solution to all this, it's called the law and sensible regulation.
So communism is what you're saying?
>>343787774
Valve was scum from the start
>>343796356
What? Burden of knowledge?
The law shouldn't have to protect you from your own stupidity. It's not like you are going to die if you gamble.
I understand the nature of compulsion and I also understand using your own reasoning to stop doing that compulsive stuff. If it's a serious mental condition, you shouldn't even be flirting with the idea anyways and should be seeking medical health.
Yes, good for me that I don't cave in to any want I want, because I can exert the least bit of self-control.
You are justliek those bozos that whine that kickstarter should sue projects that tank, without actually reading on the rules of agreement and stuff.
The law is there alright, and assumes you can read and make your own decisions, numbnuts.
keys, supply drops etc are a form of gambling and only exist because of loopholes
/v/ doesn't really care about this since it involves big youtubers but it is a problem that needs to be addressed, not just on YoutTube but also from the publishers. Devs usually don't want these things in the game.
>>343796571
You aren't really that stupid, are you?
Considering you seem to think of yourself as some sort of superhuman I suppose you imagine you would prosper under anarchy.
>>343796948
Cool, how do you make money through crates outside third-parties sites?
You can only get steambucks through steam and you can't refund market gained steambucks into your credit card.
If you are willing to use a third-party site to get money you aren't allowed to make anyways, it's at your own risk.
>>343796819
>The law shouldn't have to protect you from your own stupidity.
Tell that to the EU.
For an organization that's giving free education to it's citizens they're dumb as fuck when it comes to real world shit.
"Wahhh I didn't fallow EULA mama EU comes helps me I sue Valve!"
>>343797037
>Self control.
>Superhuman.
Seems common sense is superhuman to you as well since you lack it you fucking moron.
>yfw valve disconnects all steam internet login/plugin services in response
>>343797154
What? EU has stricter laws, yes, but they have all the right to set their standards for consumer rights.
Valve isn't forced to comply with said rules unless they want to operate inside their market.
Also, refund for products is the normal in most countries, it's just one of those things the US seems to not understand as a basic right, like maternity leave.
>>343797261
Hey man, it's tough to not eat evertyhing I see, to not fuck every hole I find and to not kill every asshole I meet.
I'm superhuman everyday for not being a piece of shit, I demand some praise.
>>343797471
>maternity leave.
>"I demand equal pay!"
>valvecucks btfo
>eceleb shitters btfo
It's a win win situation.
>>343797352
I won't miss it but I do hope they remove the retarded time limitation on trading
>>343787774
Zero issue with this gambling situation. If kids are doing it its not valves fault. Parents/websites. Why would I give a fuck what people do with their time and money
>>343796819
>The law shouldn't have to protect you from your own stupidity
Do not make the mistake of equating ignorance with stupidity.
We are all ignorant of something. It's not possible to have all the knowledge there is and it's not a reasonable expectation that people should just go out and acquire it. I sure hope you aren't stupid enough to think "just google it" is the answer.
>I also understand using your own reasoning to stop doing that compulsive stuff
You don't understand compulsion at all.
The little angel on one shoulder and the little devil on the other is not a real thing, you only have one brain and it controls everything you do, including what you are and aren't capable of thinking.
>>343797587
It doesn't matter for literally every other country in the world.
Also, several countries also have paternity leaves, so there's that.
People that don't agree with such things are people that think women will get pregnant every tsingle oportunity they get just so thet get paid without working, despite that being a stupid line of tought unless they already live below the poverty line, since it would make the future costs that comes with raising a child not be worth it in the long run.
>>343797896
>As a business I should be willing to hire an employee that's liable to leave with pay for 5 months because of "Morals"
Companies exist for a bottom line dumbass, there's literally 0 reason to hire an employee that does have a chance to get pregnant over one that doesn't.
People don't make businesses to act like they're superheroes, they do it for money, don't like it? Don't buy from them.
>>343797892
Well, maybe I'm super human, cause I don't do any of that. The US seems to thing the "burden of knowledge" lies on the consumer at most parts, like when it comes to financial advices and healthcare insurance.
Maybe that other anon was right and you want the government to coddle your balls so you don't shit on your pants daily.
And as I said, if that compulsion is actually that crippling, those people must look for psychiatric attention, not lawyers
>>343797896
Can I get paid paternity leave then?
so how long till valve cracks down on this gambling thing by making it even more annoying to trade stuff then it already is. Maybe they should make it so you have to give them your social insurance number too just to make sure
kids who copy streamers and gamble $300 knives like it's nothing and expect to win are retarded and should be put to sleep.
the streamers are playing with house money and get free rolls/knowledge of future rolls when they get low.
Gambling is for degenerates.
>>343787774
unless valve knew about it I could care less
>>343792880
Who are the youtube people who did this? Do they have a channel?
>>343798170
Then explain to me why every single other country in the world has this policy and aren't dying due to lack of profits.
Maternity license never killed any business by itself.
I don't mind you not hiring women, but if you do, they should be able to have some family planning without thinking on how to get another job after getting fired for being pregnant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt0w9YP_wZ0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9RjDRLBWio
Watch these two short, informative videos which will succinctly demonstrate that this has been Valve and Gabe's plan all along. Why use your hundreds of millions/billions of dollars in cash to make new and exciting games when you can just funnel cash from parent's wallets directly into your fat bank accounts?
You're all fucking deluded if you think Valve actually has any sort of vision for games, gaming, or making good games. With all their assets, all their cash, all their talent, they should be making next generation games. Instead they build the simplest possible game design centered around micro-transactions and cosmetics.
Don't take my word for it. Watch. Listen. Hear it from the horse's mouth.
>>343798341
Depends on the country. Most paternity licenses nowadays don't go over 1 month, so it's basically an extended paid break.
>>343790897
>being a GOtard
>literally out of your free will getting cucked out of Valve's Attention, Development Time and most importantly Money by Dota Two the Based
Don't worry, it's not too late to quit your casual game and join the Action Chess.
>>343798397
>Everyone else does it so that means it's right.
Where have I heard this before?
Also if the employee didn't start 7 months ago and isn't a complete shitter that sucks at the job I wouldn't mind giving a leave on a contract stipulation, I also wouldn't be paying her, because it's not fair to employees who are actually fucking working.
She's not losing her job, but she sure as fuck isn't being paid to sit on her ass, she ought to have saved up the money for a kid before she decided to have one.
>>343794287
>this particular time
or that other particular time, or that third particular time, or any other particular time businesses relied on retards giving money without guaranteed returns. It's obviously a coincidence.
>>343798431
Nobody is saying they are making new gaming experiences.
We are just saying that there's a big difference between making a money making closed economy inside their system and inciting underage gambling.
>>343789432
>Consumer freedom is corruption.
Yes, Valve should be able to tell me what I can and can't do with what I paid for, dipshit.
>>343798431
>With all their assets, all their cash, all their talent, they should be making next generation games. Instead they build the simplest possible game design centered around micro-transactions and cosmetics.
This is true for every major dev at this point.
And nobody here thinks Valve is still a great developer.
>read thread expecting a plethora of Americans talking about how badly they want to take the corporate cock and hate having consumer power
>get a thread of exactly that
Brilliant.
But of course that they've been taken to different international courts at least twice this year over consumer rights issues and might well be being taken to court in your own country is all because of those anti-corporate communist liberals isn't it :^)
>>343795547
>Devs get funding for future updates
>Valve
>updates
>>343787774
It is disgusting. Gabe should be hung.
>>343792367
/v/ is pretending they were conscious of this being an issue before h3h3 made a video last night
maybe a lawsuit will fucking get Valve's heads out of their collective asses and they'll stop leaching off shitty games and start actually making a game every 2 years or so.
>>343798802
I think Valve is a great developer.
>>343798817
>EU faggot thinks his government should shelter him.
Your little club will crumble and your country will turn into ash, peasant.
>>343798725
"We are making millions and millions of dollars off of this system."
"The Goal is not to put users in a position where they are gambling, but put into a position where they had random chance- and there is a fundamental difference there."
Straight from Valve's mouth.
>>343798179
>The US seems to thing the "burden of knowledge" lies on the consumer at most parts, like when it comes to financial advices and healthcare insurance.
No, it doesn't. At all.
The US is awash with regulations and laws. I have absolutely no idea why you would think it isn't.
You are very far from superhuman if you believe "caveat emptor" rules America...
>And as I said, if that compulsion is actually that crippling, those people must look for psychiatric attention, not lawyers
Ever heard an addict say "I'm not addicted, I could stop anytime I want to"? They actually do believe that. That is the nature of addiction, it's very hard to recognize in oneself. It only becomes apparent when you stop the behavior.
You are incredibly naive for someone who has such a high opinion of themselves.
>valve gets 2-3 dollars per key
>key used on crates
>crate items if rare get put up on market
>people buy items giving valve even more of a cut in profit
>now people gamble said items so they have a chance to get steam bucks and even more money to valve since they will obviously try to sell whatever they win or buy a ton of keys with the rewards
>people think this is ok because only stupid people do this
no it encourages more of the practice. In fact, the reason why there is a rise of iphone p2w faggotry is because everyone is ignoring the people who throw away their money at these things. Instead it should be regulated to protect consumers.
>>343798926
why
>>343798610
>Sitting her ass.
So, you never raised a kid, right? Also you didn't answer my point. And just because you don't do it and everybody does, doesn't mean YOU are the correct one for being different from the others.
Again, Maternity leave isn't bad for business, that's a worldwide fact, look for any business site and you'll see the impact on production is minimal.
IF the job you want to fill is so essential that you can't replace a worker for 6 months, then I agree, don't hire a woman that might have a kid.
BUT IF YOU DO HIRE a woman, she deserves at least one maternity leave every 5 years or so.
>>343790173
Crates alone are gambling, which is entirely Valve
>>343798978
>regulated to protect consumers.
So communism?
>>343798926
>was
ftfy
They don't make games anymore. They'd probably make less money making a game than doing nothing.
>>343787774
It doesn't affect the state of my video games too much. So I personally don't care.
Only kids and retards gamble online anyway.
>>343787774
Some really abusive motherfuckers decided to use valve's services to create a gambling ring, and when some underaged retards lost all of mommy's credit card money they decided to sue valve. The crates, which may or not be considered gambling, are not part of the lawsuit. The lawsuit states that vale has some vague association with these sites thanks to CS:GO cancerous community.
...
Even if it is only a pain in their ass, they brought it to themselves. Modern gaming is God awful, and Valve only help to enable it. I hope the other party loses big time, so they owe Valve their lawyer fees. The smartass who came up with this idea needs to be hanged by his scrotum.
>>343798935
>Australia sues Valve
>America potentially looking to suit up
>b-b-b-ut it's eurocucks
top lel.
I hope that corporate cock is delicious, you anti-American scumbag.
>>343798978
>don't go crazy on keys
>don't gamble on items
Yeah, it's called self regulation. You don't need to be a genius to learn self control and the people who are experience severe financial distress because of this deserve it.
>>343799087
Whoa whoa whoa there fucker.
1. The kid doesn't help my fucking company, so I don't give a fuck what she's doing when she's not at the job site.
2. Just because everyone else is brain dead enough to hand out free money doesn't mean it doesn't affect the bottom line, that's retarded.
3. I don't give a shit what your morals or feelings are on the subject, it's simple fucking math.
You're giving money for 0 (Zero) work, which is a bad deal.
I know you live in some moronic communist shithole and can't fathom a company trying to make money but just think for 5 seconds okay.
>>343798938
There are already several laws on gambling up and several others for booze, drugs,etc.
The government isn't obligated to force addicted people to look for help.
>Regulation to protect the common person is tantamount to communism
I hope everyone saying this ITT is all for burning the constitution, given that pretty much every constitution in the world exists to give rights to the common man.
>>343799254
>Both fail
>You'll still be here sifting through Valve's trash trying to find anything to pretend to have a moral high ground
Pa-fucking-thetic.
>>343798926
>i think Valve is a great developer
was
now they are memes and p2w
remember portal 2? fantastic game that was most likely had several cuts so that valve could insert their failed cosmetics system in the game. Imagine how much of that could have gone into making more puzzles and story, rather than a skin and hat shop that just didn't fit the game at all.
remember when valve actually tried to have a bit of fun when handling events on Steam and then when people found ways to beat the system, they just ripped it all out, inserted trading cards and voting and then stripped out the voting, leaving nothing but a giant switch that they push to say "sales this week" and absolutely nothing else but the random faggot who pumps their account level to 500+
bravo Valve, you are even more dead than gog this year.
>>343799426
>Regulating what I can buy
>Rights.
Actually it's quite the opposite.
You sound to me like a faggot that thinks the government should assign you an accountant to make sure you spend your money correctly, retard.
>>343799612
>p2w
atleast stop spewing shit
I would think that the simple response is the same response the federal government did for illegal online gambling establishments in the past.
Shut the offending establishments the fuck down and send the IRS.
Valves involvement is indirect but you can bet your sweet ass they will "Work with the government"otherwise known as covering their own ass
>>343799509
>EU successfully gets Valve to offer refunds
>Australia succeeds in suing Valve
>both fail
literally what
>>343799087
If you're not at work and not working, why should you get paid?
>>343799331
anyone under the age of 18 isn't smart enough to handle money. Parents don't know what the fuck is going on because it looks just like a harmless game but its draining credit cards without them knowing until they see the charges after a month, hence the reason for the lawsuit.
>>343799637
It sounds to me you think the president should be allowed in as many terms as possible because setting a limit it communism.
>>343799689
>T-this will be the end of Valve for s-s-sure!
>>343799380
The communist asshole I live is "insert here any other country in the world"
It's not morals, it's just making a better society where people can raise their children peacefully.
AND I REPEAT ONCE AGAIN. If you are so tight for money that some workers leaving for a few months is enough to disrupt your company/business, then don't hire women.
Maternity leave is something that helps your country and your people overall well-being in the long run, it's not a profit driven law. If you don't agree with it, DON'T HIRE WOMEN.
Damn, it's hard for you to understand that you can have all your workforce male if you want to, it's your decision as a private business.
>>343799407
>The government isn't obligated to force addicted people to look for help.
Actually, the government can and does compel addicts to be treated for their addictions. It also compels people to attend things like diversity training, anger management therapy, etc., etc. with varying levels of usefulness.
You can argue over whether or not it should but considering the responsibility of government is the prosperity and well being of ALL it's citizens it's not unreasonable to claim it should compel treatment in certain cases. Maybe.
>>343799612
nigga, gog is the shit
>>343799825
>allies failed WW2 because Germany, Italy and Japan still exists.
Again, literally what.
>>343799089
Crates are as much gambling as buying trading cards. It's a despicable system but in the end it's regular people who put a $4000 price on that knife, not valve
>>343798759
It's a loophole that allows underaged kids to gamble and valve doesn't care, the fuck does this have to do with consumer freedom?
>>343799827
>then don't hire women.
But that's problematic and sexist
>>343799660
even the most stupid person can see
high steam level = popularity
popularity = winning
>>343799806
>Corporations commit tyranny by putting items up for sale.
Holy fuck.
>>343799892
Still not obligated. They can make campaign and programs to help on the plight of addicts, but they are not obligated in any way.
>>343799945
>Bad parenting is Valve's fault.
>Underage children committing theft if Valve's fault.
>3rd party sites are Valve's fault.
>Valve should police everyone or they're stealing.
Okay, you're done, everyone in this thread knows you're a fucking idiot now.
>>343799794
>Parents don't know what the fuck is going on
Weird, I know plenty of parents that watch online transaction history like a hawk. I guess they are "Special" and all the parents that are not at all horrible at keep tracking of their child's financial activities dindu nuffin. Why do the kids have credit card info in the first place?
>anyone under the age of 18
Weird. I grew up with internet and never blew money on stupid shit.
>>343799714
So, you also don't believe in paid vacations?
>>343800169
i guess you don't know it takes a minimum of a week for temporary transactions to show up on credit history
>>343799892
>obligated
>can and does
>should compel
Why did you bother making that post? Everything you said was already acknowledged by the anon you replied to.
>>343787774
It's just a giant pachinko-style loophole that allows kids to gamble.
I have never been a part of it, and hopefully everyone appropriate gets destroyed for it.
>kids spending their tendie bucks on knife skins
>>343800262
>Why do the kids have credit card info in the first place?
Maybe you don't know how to read a post before typing up a reply.
>>343800286
Yup, but I don't mind saying it again. Even more clear, if he needs.
>>343800191
>Earning 8 weeks (And that's if it's a good job, most don't even offer that) of vacation after years of work is the same as someone getting 5 months off paid because of their gender.
>Female athletes can drop out of the olympics and fuck over sponsors because "Muh preggers"
>Male athletes can't
>"We demand equal pay"
>>343800169
Apparently the untamed internet was a lot more scary back in the 90s. Older parents know better than to allow a kid to have unrestricted access to a credit card on neopets.
everything to do with virtual crates, virtual packs of cards, or professional "content creators" is shit for retards
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9RjDRLBWio
>>343800404
parents are checking
>remember credit card info so its easier to check out next time
>>343800428
Great, then she won't get any more work in the future.
Also, if you think it's too much, you can make a limit, like "work for 5 years before being able to use your maternity leave", etc.
It's like thos epeople that argue that trans people shouldn' use the bathrooms they want, because they could rape people, even though rape is already a crime.
A bad business decision is stupid for any gender, if you are an athlete, you more likely than not don't work in an enviroment that requires maternity leave in the first place.
>>343800134
Gambling is illegal for underaged kids and valve lets them gamble, not only that but they've allowed sites that LITERALLY let kids gamble to use the steam inventory infrastructure for this cause. This isn't bad parenting, this is fucking illegal. Stop defending your soulless corporation you dick sucking loser
>>343800083
There are legal obligations involved, it's why they do it.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "obligated". I mean there's no natural law compelling them to force addicts into treatment but there is no natural law compelling the government to remove criminals from society and place them in jail either.
>>343799089
>Crates alone are gambling
>Buy crate
>It has random chance to contain a rare item, or mostly shit
>Get something I don't need
>I'm allowed to trade it
>BAN THIS SHIT, ILLEGAL ILLEGAL
>Buy Pokemon cards
>It has random chance to contain a Charizard, or mostly Potions and energy cards
>Get something I don't need
>I'm allowed to trade it
>GOOD OLD WHOLESOME CHILDHOOD
>>343800627
So you admit it's their fault.
>>343787774
>tfw you forgot you could sell all your trading cards for steam bucks to prepare for the sales each year
Guess who's actually going to beat those shitty indie games for .80.
I might have to stop playing custom games now and start betting on CSGO skins on the side.
This will be great until USA shuts it the fuck down. If Vegas knew how big of a market it is, then we'd be fucked already. I think Europe takes a much more lax stance on gambling in general, so they'll be fine.
All of these games with loot boxes are essentially what's going to ruin Vegas in the future. Games are already more engaging than casino shit. The gambling is just the cherry on top. Real money or not.
>>343800134
>Bad parenting is Valve's fault.
>Underage children committing theft if Valve's fault.
>3rd party sites are Valve's fault.
>Valve should police everyone or they're stealing.
This however is what democrats and liberals truly believe.
>>343800723
>Valve shouldn't be allowed to spy on me.
>Valve should monitor children (Who lie 70% of the time about their age) on 3rd party sites because I'm a fucking retard and can't into common logic.
>>343799089
>crates are gambling
Crates are not gambling. In the US, the practice of gambling is legally defined as:
"A person engages in gambling if he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he or someone else will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome."
Crates do not allow you to receive something of value (that is, monetary value), because in the way that Valve has set up the system, there is no officially-condoned and legitimate way to get from CSGO items back to legal tender. The value that these items have is wholly artificial, and dependent on third-parties who have their own financial stake in keeping prices inflated.
>paying money for a texture
>"people aren't stupid! they know what they're doing! valve should be sued!"
?...?
>>343800134
not him. companies have the obligation to make sure that the customers are eligible for their service. valve cooperates with a site with at least very shady and likely illegal practices. so either they made something every company should and likely does do and check the other company out first or they just didn't care about the other sites reputation. either way this doesn't put valve in a good light.
>THINK OF THE CHILDREN
where have I heard this one before?
>>343800724
There is, it's called "keeping themselves on power"
Helping addicts isn't a priority to keep a society going, punishing criminals that disrupt the basic rights set up by a government, for example right of property, is undermining your own authority.
You have the freedom to used and do whatever youw ant, as long as you don't bother otehr people, but you can't steal another people's property.
A government won't crumble if they let addicts kill/fuck themselves, letting criminals go unpunished will lead to revolts and people going after the people in charge.
>>343800563
god this shit is dark
>Spent like $100 on CSGO crates/keys over a year and a half
>Get a Huntsman knife, Sell it and make my money back in Steam Money and like a $10 profit.
>Sell all the other shit that i dont want, make like $40
>CSGO Lounge becomes a thing
>Dont have a good enough inventory to buy in
>CSGO Gambling becomes a thing
>Same situation
>Look at people on Youtube trying it
>Its nothing but despair and losing $500 knives in the blink of an eye
Anybody who fell for CSGO gambling is a fucking moron
I'm glad people are finally calling Valve out on this disgusting shit but I find it kind of pathetic that it's only happening because some famous youtuber told them to.
>>343801082
>Cooperates
Someone using the Steam API does not mean they endorse or cooperate anything
Why should I care?
>>343787774
The CSGO off-site gambling stuff with skins as a pseudo-currency probably should be illegal, it's loophole abuse at its finest.
The YouTuber drama currently going on is super illegal in every respect.
But Valve's business model with the crates, while maybe immoral, is definitely not illegal.
>>343801082
>companies have the obligation to make sure that the customers are eligible for their service.
Yes, because there are truly ways of knowing if that 15 year old that said he was 22 is lying.
Get your head out of your ass.
>>343800749
only thing i will admit is dlc and market trades shouldn't automatically connect to saved credit card data on the account. There should be a seperate check between buying a game, and buying a market item.
>>343801148
Its their subscribers money and not theirs so they lost nothing
>>343800746
when buying packs of cards you are guaranteed cards that are playable
crates have a bunch of shit of varying value, and odds are it wont be playable shit
>>343801203
There you go, pretty concise summary.
>it's ok when Nintendo does it
>it's ok when Sony does it
>it's ok when Microsoft does it
>it's ok when Valve does it
>>343801238
>Yes, because there are truly ways of knowing if that 15 year old that said he was 22 is lying.
uhhhhh yes it's called checking id how do you think businesses do it
if you think requiring id is beyond the reach of online businesses you are wrong
>>343801329
>Playable shit
What?
>>343801184
i understood it that you were able to log into that site with your steam account? that heavily implies cooperation given that some keysite, g2a i think, isn't allowed by valve to do that anymore.
>>343801238
legit gambling sides require of you to send in your ID with unneccessary information covered up.
>>343801203
Valve facilitates many of those sites by allowing users to link their Steam accounts, and facilitating gambling is illegal as well in most places that don't allow gambling
>>343801203
Problem is they allow gambling sites to use their API for logging in and linking accounts.
That could easily be seen as negligence. Valve is potentially liable.
>>343801148
The people on Youtube are typically given skins to gamble by whichever site they're being sponsored by, however.
The real money these sites make is off randoms who watch the videos.
>>343801520
>Doesn't even know what the Steam API is
Just stop posting
>>343801289
Yeah no kidding. The $500 knife they lost and in some cases they didnt lose at all since they're for show and rigged since the videos are sponsored is nothing to the $5000 they'll make off the video since it'll get a billion views.
But to see people failing and wanting to fail yourself and putting your hundred dollar items on the line due to that, thats nothing but pure retardation.
>>343795205
only nigger making any sense here
>>343801169
>>343801148
>>343800723
>>343799960
>>343798978
>>343798367
autists spotted
>>343801480
>Just give Valve your I.D., SSN, Cell #, and credit card!
>"What?! How dare you imply this is completely unnecessary if parents just watch their kids, just hand over everything!"
>>343787774
It's not gambling because you can make money without having to put any in.
I mean shit my TF2 inventory was worth more than $400 when I quit and I never put more money into the game than the $10 to buy it and I think I bought some paint once.
>>343801329
CS:GO and Dota2 items do not affect gameplay in any way, TF2 items are insanely cheap at a scrap banker and for the cost of one key you could buy enough metal to fund basic, gameplay-changing weapons for the nearest 50 years.
>>343801203
/thread
crates aren't illegal, skins gambling isn't illegal, and cashing out isn't illegal.
Put the three together as a single system and it's obviously gambling.
Serious loophole abuse.
>>343801596
just does it invalid this or any of my other points?
>>343801520
Steam API does not mean Valve endorses any site or have anything to do with it.
>>343801658
What does sucking valve cock get you, anon?
>>343801670
But Valve already asks for at least 3 of those when you spend/gains more that 100 bucks in the steam market during a year.
>>343801784
Yes.
You're literally saying that Toyota should be sued every time someone crashes one of their cars, or uses one of their vans to rob a bank.
It's a fucking public API.
>>343801106
>the purpose of government is to perpetuate itself
>libertarianism solves all the worlds problems
Grow up, kid.
>>343801684
>It's not gambling because you can make money without having to put any in.
that's not the definition of gambling.
>>343795547
An OK skin economy is one where the players can purchase the skin they want from Valve at an agreeable price.
A bad skin economy is where players pay $2.50 for a chance at what they want, but mostly with the expectation of selling them to other players.
Valve makes some skins artificially rare, not because there is any necessary reason for it to be rare, but mostly because it adds the lottery element to the system.
If valve made every single drop the same chance, you would expect that most items would settle a similar pricepoint, with some variation due to desirability. Some skins are just cooler than others and even with all supply the same would commend a premium. Most people have varying enough taste that the demand profile would be pretty wide, and there is no real upper limit to the number of cases that people would be opening. For the common CS:GO skins, the price is very low, usually a few dollars at the most. People just don't care that much about being unique or cosmetics.
The problem is that valve makes some items deliberately rare in order to not only increase their price (and Valve's cut at sale), but to increase the interest in crates strictly as a cash opportunity. You're no longer paying $2.50 for a 1:X chance at the skin you want, you're paying $2.50 for a 1:X chance of something worth hundreds or even thousands of dollars.
Very few people would care to open hundreds of CSGO crates for a chance at a unique looking skin. People are opening hundreds of CSGO crates for a chance at big money.
>>343801784
Read the Steam API terms of service
>>343801860
You are fucking lying
>>343801520
Sports betting sites do full background checks before letting you bet a dime. One site made me wait two weeks while they sent physical letters to my local authorities to verify I was indeed who I said I was.
>>343801860
Yes and you want them to ask for more, as though kids can't just take their moms forms of I.D. you fucking mongoloid.
>>343801771
>Cashing out
>Gambling
Both not supported by valve. And the only "cashing out" you can do on steam is in non-refundable steambucks.
>>343800627
>Checking that off for a child
Yeah, you shouldn't be having children if you're not going to enter in the info your self and insure it's not being saved. That's on you.
>>343801975
wow the poker sites i were one weren't nearly that harsh. just an ID check.
>>343801901
Well, yes. A government really wants to keep itself around.
And I never said anything about libertaranism. I just stated facts, anon. Maybe you should grow up and actually bring up a counter argument.
What about this then?
All that money goes into Valve and these gambling websites.
That money isn't returning to improve life, they are being drained into shit projects or fucking lining the pockets of the .1% of people in this world. Items made out of data are completely gone if the owners account gets banned, inactive, or dies. Steam accounts can't be legally traded even on death.
>>343801523
>>343801547
Interesting. It's still not a problem with their core crate slot-machine styled economy as much of their looseness with allowing others to use their API. I imagine Valve's going to be cracking down on this a lot more regardless of whether this lawsuit actually succeeds.
>>343801974
Nope, you can look on steam FAQs
>>343801992
I know it's not supported by Valve, because then it'd be illegal under current gambling laws.
The point is that there's a huge, consistent market that lets you go from real cash -> skins -> gambling -> real cash.
Because these all occur on different sites, and each step is individually legal, it's not "technically" gambling. All together, it is.
Which is why it's loophole abuse.
The extend of the shits I give is me being here explaining how I don't actually give a shit.
Valve can implode as a studio for all I care, they're not relevant anyway and a team of 10 brain damaged indians can run Steam just as well as Valve do.
>>343800315
>and hopefully everyone appropriate gets destroyed for it.
Nah, it works like this:
The losers who got their money stolen by Chinese and Russian hosted sites; which will never, ever be persecuted and at worst will simply shut their sites, and create new ones overnight; are suing valve because they are in America, and are targets for whatever fantastic bullshit they can cook up so they take the blame.
Youtubers; who enabled this bullshit ring, and made this scam popular to begin with; are against valve because they want them to take the blame, and they are not exactly fans of the whole "Studying and Work a real job" plan most people adopt, so they are delighted by any scenario in which they get money for doing nothing. Views at the very least, free bucks at best. It is easily to convince people that you are not the worst money grubbing jewmesiter with faux brand idealism, see Marxism, "Corporations are just evil, goy, support and subscribe"
It essentially the entire " modern gaming community" vs valve.
Because the only thing this generation can do is bite the hand that feeds them.
I only hope that sites like tf2 outpost become casualties via collateral damage when Valve suspends their steamlogin services. Hell /v/ used it a couple of times during the /v/gas.
So no, no one guilty is being persecuted, actually it is more like the guilty persecuting the innocent.
>>343787774
>>343789920
Came here to say this.
As soon as Mr. Reaction Man makes a funny video on it suddenly every cunt starts caring and calling it disgusting. AKA Thinly veiled e-celeb thread
>>343801547
That's not how negligence works
Gabe Newell should be put in jail.
>>343801985
But I don't though. I was agreeing with you when you pointed out asking for more information is pointless, shithead.
>>343795513
>Ethan used to post on 4chan
You know, I felt this be true but I've never seen any proof of it before.
>>343802153
>What about this then?
it's irrelevant
>>343801926
>The problem is that valve makes some items deliberately rare in order to not only increase their price (and Valve's cut at sale), but to increase the interest in crates strictly as a cash opportunity.
And why is this a problem? If you don't want the "cooler" cosmetic, don't blow money on crates hoping to get it. If people want to be stupid, that's their business.
>valve creates a media platform
>other people abuse it for gambling
>the government can sue valve for other people gambling on their games
Children, that's not how it works.
>>343799612
You made me remember Portal 2 hats.
>>343789920
>>343802310
>didn't know about thing
>learn about thing
>LMAO NOW YOU CARE ABOUT THING
>>343801329
Your argument is retarded, it could be bait, but why take the chances?
You are a God damn idiot.
>>343802493
As it's been pointed out, since many of the gambling sites use Valve's API they're potentially considered complicit and thus liable.
>>343790265
> Using windows to hack
Wow.
>>343802493
BUT THE CHILDREN. WE NEED BIGGER GOVERNMENT AND MORE REGULATIONS, ESPECIALLY ON VIDEO GAMES. THINK OF THE CHILDREN BUYING DIGITAL SKINS? THIS IS NOTHING LIKE KIDS BUYING YUGIOH CARDS
>>343802153
>Steam accounts can't be legally traded even on death.
No one knows for sure.
Kill yourself and find out.
>>343787774
>people spend money on stupid shit
Why is this a problem to anyone? Might as well complain about retards running in traffic and getting hit by cars. If it's not a bannable offense for you to be posting on this site, this should not be an issue that will affect you in any way.
>>343802589
>Valve shuts down steam API and demands sites that want to use it to go through steam support.
There you go, Valve is clean as a whistle once again.
>>343802589
No, they're not. Look up the API terms of service. It is a public API
>>343801684
>It's not gambling because you can make money without having to put any in.
You're mostly incorrect.
Unless you're the motherfucker with a one in a million chance to get something worth more than $10 from a post-game drop, the minimum you NEED to spend to gamble in CS:GO is $2.50 USD. Thats minimum, meaning that you'd have to get something above $10 from your first and only case to participate in gambling, for ONE roll.
Gambling sites have a minimum buy-in. You need to put in an item or items worth more than $10 or you just cant participate
>>343802493
>valve creates games that revolve around gambling (crates)
This is not a difficult concept
>>343801039
>it's not made out of protons, neutrons and electrons therefore it's worthless
>>343802363
Yes it is. You cannot allow your business to be involved in illegal activities. You must take proactive steps to avoid it (like vetting sites you allow your API on).
>>343802596
You don't even know the start, I got this 56k modem and I hack mad shit.
>>343802521
No, the issue is that a lot of you cunts will suddenly act like this is such a huge problem you are and have been outraged by for months. Nobody has a problem with your awareness being raised but don't act like you know anything about the issue rather than what a 12 minute meme video told you through funny jokes.
>>343801926
>Valve makes some skins artificially rare, not because there is any necessary reason for it to be rare, but mostly because it adds the lottery element to the system.
Wow, just like every other chance based purchase! TCGs all have artificially rare cards, except in those cases the rare cards are usually better. Same with capsule machines at supermarkets, if the person filling the machine wants the sticky hand to be a 1/50 chance, they can for no reason other than to be a dick.
This is nothing new, don't blame valve for people overpricing digital skins that do nothing gameplay-wise.
>>343802521
>Have a persecution complex
>"Everyone laughing at the person next to me is also laughing at me!"
Are you trying to tell us that you're stupid? Not sure why you're acting like everything revolves around you.
>>343802809
>Saberfag is retarded
What is new?
>>343802857
you are the only one acting like you've been outraged for months. laughing at others for just now learning about it is ridiculous.
>>343794287
>This is not fair.
This is not an argument. Fairness is a social construct. It doesn't exist.
>>343802668
was already asked to developers
your account is only binding to yourself and can't be traded.
>>343802841
That's not how negligence works. It has a legal definition.
>>343802747
It being public does not make valve immune from illegal activities using it.
>>343801771
Valve only supports buying keys to unlock content in their games.
You're guaranteed a skin every time, it's not gambling since you don't win money from it.
Price of skin has no impact on this fact.
"Gambling with skins" is totally 3rd party, never has been supported by valve and they actually shut down bots when they find them.
"Cashing out" again never has been supported by valve, any money you put into the machine you never get back.
This case is a farce and will get laughed out of the court room.
>>343802973
BUT IT'S NOT FAIR
WHY CAN'T I MAKE MEGA MILLIONS TOO BROS!
I LOST 200$ IN CSGO TRADING SO NOW VALVE NEEDS TO HAVE A CLASS ACTION SUIT ON IT'S HANDS
LET'S GO BROS
>>343802143
A government does not ONLY want to keep itself around and it constantly demonstrates this.
If the government is only concerned about perpetuating itself then why does it do things like seek to treat addicts, provide social mobility for it's citizens, provide various forms of welfare etc., etc?
>And I never said anything about libertaranism. I just stated facts, anon.
Spoken like a true libertarian. Do you think unbridled libertarianism has never been tried before or something? It has. Same as things like absolute free market capitalism and communism it doesn't work quite as well in practice as it does in theory.
>>343802989
I'm not using negligent in its strictly legal term faggot, im explaining that valve may have been roped into illegal activities by their negligence.
>>343802747
tos do not override local law. i don't know if this is the case here but unless a court decides the tos are lawfull they mean less than nothing.
I hope Valve gets assraped in court over this.
Fuck Valve, fuck Steam, fuck Gaben.
They don't care about the customers, look how shitty the Steam client is. They don't care about making good games. All they care about is rehashing old shit and selling crate keys.
Anyone who has loyalty toward Valve is a mindless drone.
>expecting retarded americans to ever doubt their corporate overlords
>>343803017
>it's not gambling since you don't win money
L
O
O
P
H
O
L
E
>>343803152
>I'm not using negligent in its strictly legal term
So what you're saying doesn't matter.
KILL ALL VALVEDRONES
DEATH TO VALVE
>>343802993
The only illegal thing in H3's video is those guys not disclosing they own the site
>>343802398
he used to shill his videos on /b/ and /r9k/ back when he was doing talk show skits insulting redditors and he did that fatlip fan music video. you saw how quickly he recanted that reddit bullshit just to pander to them and make and mod his own sub, though.
you know what, i could be wrong because i didn't spend a whole lot of time looking, but i just checked to see if i could find the video where he called reddit a bunch of fedora tipping neck bearded losers from 3 years ago and it looks like he put it to private. fucking typical retconning jew.
>>343802957
I don't give a very giant shit at all about this, this isn't a cock rating competition and even if I knew about it months ago it wouldn't mean anything for me to justify my point of view with it.
It works like this:
>Funny reaction man makes a funny video
>You hear about it from your subreddits
>You form a strong opinion over something you learnt about 45 minutes ago
>You make a thread on /v/ saying how "disgusting" you find it.
>>343803192
There is literally no case against Valve, this is all on the consumers and the owners of skin gambling sites.
>>343803152
You're saying what they're doing is illegal, but not in the legal sense. You obviously have no fucking clue what you're talking about and I'm done replying.
>>343789432
back to ghazi and fight your goober war there
Haruhi or Valve?
>>343803247
Exactly the opposite. If valve allowed their service to be used in illegal activities they are guilty of breaking some law, somewhere as online gambling is incredibly regulated.
>>343799612
I see, it is valve fault that the gaming community is literally full of niggers and slavshits ruining the fun of everyone else with bots, reselling sites and scripts.
You are such a fucking idiot, I wish I could punch you on the back of the head.
>>343803365
And what's your point?
>>343802993
Actually it does, unless they can prove valve was aware of this particular site's use and supported them directly.
Again, same argument as saying the whatsapp developers should be sued because criminals use it to talk to each other.
>>343802919
slotting machines actually have to give a certain percentage of money out in a certain time period. you can't just do whatever.
