How do you make wizards interesting and mysterious again?
Make all of them fae, catboys optional.
>>46958765
Make them rare. No more than 5 npc magic users in the whole setting.
>>46958765
You mean for the entire world?
You fail. Immediately. You couldn't even do that for this entire board for fuck's sake, let alone the entire RPG community.
But for your group? Be a better fucking GM.
There's no shortcuts to getting good anon, you just have to work your ass off, recognize when your players are having fun, communicate with them regularly, and especially recognize when you're doing shit at your job.
There is no system that will immediately fix your own personal failings as a GM, that's up to you.
1. Remove rules from magic
Wizards do not exist to enforce your suspension of disbelief in a setting
2. Wizards cannot be main characters
"Why doesn't he just X" should never be a question asked of the wizard
3. Wizards should not have titles
Even Merlin was originally just an advisor
Wizards are defined by what they CANT do would be a start
And stopping with the hermetic shit too
Magic is like a drug. A HIGHLY ADDICTIVE drug. You can use it to do almost anything, but the more you use it, the more you want to use it, and the more it corrupts you.
>>46958765
Make them rare, and otherwise play them straight. Like, Tolkien-style; you've got maybe a few thousand people who know a thing or two about magic and could half-ass an alchemetic concoction, but only a handful of people qualified enough to be called "wizards".
>>46958839
>op asks question about how to make wizards how they used to be
>"lol ur a shitty gm git gud son"
ebin bait friendo
>>46958839
class A idiot right here
>>46958975
It's worth keeping in mind that even Gandalf mostly avoids using overt magic except as an absolute last fucking resort.
He focuses almost all of his efforts on statecraft/politics and crafting long-term personal relationships, and that is the true nature of his power.
>>46958964
That's not interesting, mysterious, or unique.
That has been done to death.
Don't let anyone know what they're thinking about.
>>46959172
So maybe instead of giving your wizards shitloads of spells, most of what they have is contacts in strange places, both high and low.
>>46958765
Definitely not by giving them chromed capes
And more seriously - you can't just make that for the entire setting, not to mention settings. Things are interesting when they are NOT common. What's the point of giving unique traits to all wizards, when, duh, all wizards will be the same?
So either treat each of them as an idividual and or create some "basic set" and then strenghten it with individual elements.
Say you've got Magic Council and mages trained in official schools. Now make sure there is such institution as court mage and mage-resident, so every bigger feudal lord got his advisor and every more important city can pride itself by having mage.
Now make sure the whole thing is decentralised, so each mage is more or less working on his or her own, doing things as they suit them. Maybe one guy is just sitting in some rural area and doing research about peasants and their traditions. Maybe one chick is hell-bent on controlling local market for commodity X. Maybe another mage is a slacker that is taking a massive grant for astronomical and astrological research, which he spends on hookers and huge mansion, while doing no research at all. Maybe someone is planting carrots in his garden and trying different techniques to increase their yeld and growth? Maybe another is obsessed about perfect golems, believing he could sell them later to local guild as workers. And so on and forth.
Either you make them all individuals, or you will end up with samey characters each time.
>>46958999
>>46959070
Not trolling, not using bait. Literally everyone sucks at something, and everyone sucks at something when they first start it and/or don't try to get better at it.
I started literally this exact same thread four years ago and basically got no helpful answers, so instead I just read up on working in descriptive language, worked with my group to create an atmosphere that they could enjoy, generally worked my ass off to improve and it fixed pretty much the entire problem.
I STILL am constantly trying to improve my GM game when I can because nobody is ever perfect at anything and learning new tricks for GMing and listening to other's stories is a great way to learn things.
I'm betting one or more of you on this thread told a story or two I listened to and learned from and tried to apply the lesson when I GM even.
An RPG requires the rules to be explained to be playable as a game, so RPG wizardry must be comprehensible and hence non-mysterious under most circumstances, if players can be wizards
Magic in any kind of storytelling is usually an allegory for something - knowledge, virtue, power in general
If as usual magic is allegorical science then wizards are allegorical scientists, for example - and scientists are not really that mysterious, kind of the opposite for the most part, seeing as science is all about illuminating mysteries
What's something you and your group find legitimately mysterious in real life? Your magic is an allegory for that thing, and your wizard is someone who knows all about that thing and gains power from hoarding that knowledge
>>46959327
Anon he's just asking for cool wizard ideas.
Modern fantasy puts too much emphasis on fleshed-out, well-explained magic systems. This kinda takes a lot of the mystery since you know exactly what the wizard is capable of. Take the rules, the training wheels, all the clamps off of magic, and show it as dangerous and crazy as you possibly can.
>>46959377
Not the anon, but there is NO recipe for instantly awesome NPCs. It's always complex and laborous to create NPCs that vary and in the same time are interesting.
>>46959377
Oh. Hmm....
How about making a Wizard look like literally anything OTHER then a Wizard? Maybe a fat bearded guy with fancy clothes who looks and acts like a banker? Or a heavily muscled bald guy who looks more like a blacksmith?
>>46959387
You've lost me somewhere around
>Take the rules, the training wheels, all the clamps off of magic
You could simply go for folklore, you mong, making things ten times as interesting and still reasonable. By your path it's basically "lolsrandom wizards roam the countryside, powerful as fuck"
>>46958964
Fuck off
>>46959421
>Not slapping rules on magic = lolsorandum
go back to your mistborn novels
>>46959172
Magic isn't even clearly defined in middle earth
The elves and dwarves can just...do stuff
It's not particularly strange or supernatural, like any artist or craftsman just building something cool.
Gandalf is a fuggin angel in disguise.
>>46959172
In literature, most sorcerers are politicians first and foremost. It's really weird that in gaming, they are almost pure murderhobo. I wonder how that came to pass...
let me use this thread as an opportunity to ask a very ignorant retarded question you guys probably know the answer to
how were pre-Tolkien wizards from actual ancient myths and legends and shit actually portrayed? like did they carry staffs? long beards and the robes with pointy hats? did they shoot fireballs and lightning? summon monsters? what's the origin of the wizards we have today really? Merlin? Moses?
>>46959491
>mistborn novels
First you would have to explain the fuck are those. I'm simply making a statement about how you need at least SOME rules in the setting. Magic working on principle of "wizard did this" is the worst thing that can ever happend to the setting. And you are basically advocating for that.
>>46959605
Poor setting design. There's really no excuse for mundane kings to exist when there are highly intelligent dragons or family lines of sorcerers. The incredibly powerful don't just let the world happen around them.
>>46959614
>how were pre-Tolkien wizards from actual ancient myths and legends and shit actually portrayed?
Depends on where, but mostly Tolkien was doing his own thing. Wizards and sorcerers had abilities that pretty much relied on doing whatever the plot required them to do in myths because myths are used as a way of telling a story or explaining an aspect of the world you don't understand, not making an RPG system.
>like did they carry staffs?
Moses did. But mostly that's Tolkien's wizards. Odin might have had a staff in some artwork.
>long beards and the robes with pointy hats?
All Gandalf.
>did they shoot fireballs and lightning?
Not really, and Gandalf did neither.
>summon monsters?
No.
>what's the origin of the wizards we have today really? Merlin? Moses?
Jack Vance as filtered through Gary Gygax and Dave Arnesson.
Don't underestimate how much influence D&D had on literally an entire generation of fantasy authors.
>>46959614
Merlin, certainly.
Faust springs to mind as well.
Before that, I have no idea. Probably at least some of the mythos originates in the mid- and far-east.
>>46959699
>>long beards and the robes with pointy hats?
>All Gandalf.
Not really desu
>>46959627
If you're not creative enough to work with a lack of rules that's on you, pal. Even in LOTR the codifier for wizards doesn't really have a lot beyond "it's magic and I don't have to explain a thing to you BECAUSE it's magic"
>>46959614
Merlin's main power was prophecy and foresight. He did cast a sleeping spell however like you would see a wizard do in a game today. Also he did carry a staff in some sources (not medieval but still before Tolkien) like Tennyson and Pyle. In the latter actually the sleeping spell was facilitated by beating the recipient on the head with the staff which is how a real wizard does it of course.
>>46959614
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xian_(Taoism)#Textual_references
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lva#Early_accounts
>>46959614
Merlin pretty much. He was usually portrayed with stereotypical wizard hat. Aleister Crowley was also (and is) big influence that came later.
>>46959733
Except they did have codifiers and you're just too plebshit to have read or even read ABOUT the Silmarillion.
Wizards are angels, and by that matter have access to the divine powers of universe-shaping. However since they're for the most part following the rules of the totally-not-christian-god, they have to put on their robe and wizard hat and stay low-key.
Other magic in LotR tends to follow the theme of 'singing to the universe', since all reality was created by the song of the creator & friends. It's a narrative explanation for magic, but it is AN explanation beyond "lol shit happens"
>>46959605
Because in real I would much rather murder every wizard who tried to play kingmaker than wizards who just fuck with people for the hell of it.
I'd rather chaos than be a puppet.
>>46959752
>In the latter actually the sleeping spell was facilitated by beating the recipient on the head with the staff which is how a real wizard does it of course.
Now I kinda want to play as a fraud wizard that does shit like that now. Like his "spell" to blind people is just throwing dirt in peoples eyes. His fireball spell is just him shooting a firework at somebody.
>>46959733
>Even in LOTR the codifier for wizards doesn't really have a lot beyond "it's magic and I don't have to explain a thing to you BECAUSE it's m
Which works because magic is fucking rare during timeline LoTR is set.
Besides if you want to make magic mysterious you have to go for "can't explain shit" (and make it preferably rare, so that it doesn't feel stupid) type of a deal, if you explain it you end with fantasy technology/science like is the case with most RPG settings.
>>46958765
Don't let them be player characters. Seriously.
I never ever let my players see enemy stat blocks, because as soon as you quantify something then all of a sudden it's a known value to be exploited.
If you want magic users to be mysterious and mystical, don't let your players know what they actually are able to do. It's probably too late for D&D, but if you have an alternative system where magic works differently then it might work.
>>46959752
he also fucking transported Stonehenge from Ireland to England
>>46959846
Play a rogue with a ton of Bluff and Sleight of Hand and tell people you're a wizard, ie be a real life stage magician
Pretty amusing gimmick character I've seen a couple of times
Its simple, you don't allow them as player classes.
As soon as you do magic needs to be defined and have rules to maintain balance, which then sets a standard for the NPCs. By disallowing PC wizards magic can become free form and mysterious, you can obviously do this anyway but there will typically be a whine from players or an attempt to explain the wizards magic with their own spells.
Alternatively just do as DCC does and have magic be risky and powerful, a bargain with another being that may get you in more trouble than its worth and can have very unforseen results.
>>46959784
>Abuhbuhbuh you didn't read the salmonellacon
Not a thing you just said disagreed with me and the fact that you're getting so angry about it is pretty funny
>>46958765
Look at "real" magic that is folk/pagan things and stories about witches. Basically plenty of complicated rituals with things like chanting and rare ingredients. Have it work mysteriously ie. don't make it work explicitly, but make it so that there could be mundane explanation or maybe it's magic.
Also, check and read occult things like Aleister Crowley, H. P. Blavatsky etc.
>>46958765
RPM with full sephirot bullshit and no adepts.
Roll an illusionist.
Alternatively grease everything
>>46959936
>salmonellacon
Thank you for providing me with the name of the next evil parchment on my campaign, anon
>>46958765
>not playing in moderntimes and making SCIENCE!wizards wielding the powers of physics or biology or chemistry to great effects.
>>46959387
Modern fantasy also focuses on magic as a active agent, instead of magic as outsider force that is rarely used.
The wizard will in many cases not be powerful, because he has nothing to compare the art with.
Folklore wizards would ask for something, then they would send agents, then they would influence, and finally they would use magic.
Modern wizard will ask, then magic.
>>46960035
Circe just sort of poofed people into animals, so it's not really so binary. There are also modern books where magicians treat with higher powers to get shit done like Amulet of Samarkand.
>>46960001
This. 100%.
Bring out the elaborate ritual circles, chants, symbolisms and sacrifices.
>>46959699
"A Trip to the Moon" which predates "The Hobbit" by over 30 years, a movie that came out when Tolkien 10 years old, had long bearded scholars in pointy hats and extravagant robes, so there is clearly a deeper historical basis to those three things, and their association with wisdom, than Tolkien or Méliès.
>>46959614
>none mentions Odin
/tg/ pls
>>46960077
Scholasticism
Less destructive power, more divination. Direct combat advantages are what make wizards boring. Politics influenced by seeing are far more interesting.
>>46958765
make them more then an archer that shoots elements instead of arrows.
>>46960120
That's not mysterious though and it's fairly common.
>>46959784
So instead of 'lol wizard did it' LOTR has 'lol wizard sang to it'? That's...not different, at all.
>>46958765
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2ArIg1Btp8
Just be the grand wizard.
>>46959733
Honestly, 'It's magic - I ain't gotta explain shit' is going to be responsible for EVEN MORE bullshit than 'this magic system has been over-codified to the point that wizards are glorified electricians'.
I'm going to try and actually be helpful. When I run a game and want magic users feel mysterious I don't say that my party can't play magic users. I ask them when they make their character how their character thinks magic works. Then I make every other magic user do magic differently (of course you have to account for backstory things depending on if they learned it from somewhere or was just born with it.)it let's the party casters feel special and still keeps a feeling of mystery about the nature of magic. The first time I did it my party was shocked when one of the only wizards in the story treated their caster like he could explode at any minute.
I do agree with making it rare though. (Sorry about spelling and format I'm on my phone)
>>46960335
That's why you limit it to NPCs and make it rare. Correct way of approach is to portray it like paranormal phenomena in real life. Might exist or might not and isn't something that has crazy effects.
>>46958765
Mages in World of Darkness are pretty subtle and mysterious by necessity. They're capable of throwing fireballs around, but flashy magic like that can make reality backlash against them. So most of the time when they use magic it doesn't look like they did anything at all. Things just seem to coincidentally work out in their favor.
>>46958765
>How do you make wizards interesting and mysterious again?
By removing them as playable characters. As soon as a player rolls a wizard you have to worry about making magic super predictable and rules-bound to work as a class, and you have to worry about retards who flip the table if magic is more flexible or powerful than hitting things with a sword.
Magic users are cool when magic is something strange and terrifying, or when you don't really know how it works or where it comes from. When it's practiced by reclusive weirdos who talk to strange beings on moonlit nights and are rumored to perform strange rituals.
As soon as you turn them into fireball dispensers and game pieces the magic is gone, no matter how thick the chapter about it in the rulebook is.
>>46959701
>>46959614
The origin of the word "mage" comes from persian.
The Magi were pseudo-historical figures, who were scolars (i think) and had magic powers, ut at least they were statesmen.
As common in myth, it wasn't clearly defined what they could do. What they did however (according to Herodotos) was to usurp the throne of Persia (think skeletor or sauron. Classic world domination bullshit.). Some brave dudes went in and dun fucked them up and restored Persia from termoil. Kind of.
>>46958765
Make them have natural born powers or something else difficult to achieve. If so many people can be a wizard, that many people will be wizards.
Make each wizard a really interesting and totally insane nutjob. No two wizards should ever be alike, and everyone who isn't a magic user should be scared shitless of them.
Of course, you would have to make them extremely rare too, but that's an improvement anyway.
>>46958765
The biggest problem with mysterious magic is that it fucks up suspension of disbelief when they don't operate on any sort of logic or restrictions but use it all the time to solve problems. When there's no rules and it's "mysterious", constant use leads to scenes where they forget old abilities, suddenly develop the perfect one to deus ex magicka out of a problem, etc. It just doesn't work...
If they're a big, active part of the plot. If they're not player-controlled, if they have some reason they aren't active in the plots of the world, then it doesn't matter if they operate on rules because they're never going to break the story by existing.
>>46959699
Come on pham, you can do better than half ass your answers.
>>did they shoot fireballs and lightning?
>Not really, and Gandalf did neither.
I remember reading stories of druids from way back when trying to defend the city, Lugh or someone with a weird name was rallying the townsfolk. He asked what the druids could do, and they said something along the lines of "We can shoot fireballs at them".
>>summon monsters?
>No.
There are so many medieval grimoires about summoning that it's not funny.
While they didn't don the title "wizard", a magic-user is a magic-user.
>>46959614
"Magic" in mythology is tied in with whatever religion it concerns. The magician as some kind of scientist tapping into the powers of the universe is mostly a modern invention, it's more commone to see things like making pacts with gods or getting powers from the same sources as the gods, or interpreting signs from the gods etc.
Merlin, is pretty much the granddaddy of the modern wizard stereotype and a big inspiration for Gandalf, but if you look at the earlier versions of the legend of King Arthur, Merlin was actually a Druid. Druids oversaw sacrifices, divined the future and and so on, but were just religious leaders to their contemporaries. Their practices was labeled as evil and so on by the romans who wanted to get rid of the druids since the druids had a lot of influence over the celtic tribes they were trying to subdue.
The stereotype of the helpful wizard who, some times in disguise aids or guides the hero in a story borrows from sources such as norse mythology, where gods, like Odin, would frequently appear to or interact with mortals, often in different forms or disguises to hide their actions from their fellow gods, or from mortals.
Then you get the later influence from christian shenanigans in muslim countries, like the crusades, where they encountered scholars who weren't christian, and disiplines such as art, medicine or science got smudged by ideas of demon worship or anti-christianism.
So really, the wizard in the pointy hat, the mentor wizard and the evil villain wizard all borrows from wildly different cultural sources, but they're all linked to religion or faith in their respective periods.
As to the hats, staves, robes etc, it's pretty universal stuff. If you popped a Bishop or orthodox priest down in a random fantasy setting everyone would take one look at them and go "totally a wizard"
The separation of magic and religion is largely a legacy of the dominant religions trying to stamp out folk religion or older religions.
>>46958765
There's no such thing as magic. There's no psionics, no incarnum, no ley lines, no power of the elements, no "forces" you can tap into in general. There is one means of doing anything vaguely supernatural: contacting creatures who are Totally Not Demons I Swear and bartering with them. Maybe they are actually demons. Maybe they're alien trolls doing it for the lulz. Maybe they're extradimensional energy beings with incomprehensible desires like only speaking through properly prepared pentagrams. Who knows, they're not talking, they know damn well they'd be exploited if they revealed their secrets.
So, wizard wants to divine the future? Wizard has to call up Ubein-Lnaa and ask what Ubein-Lnaa wants for next week's lottery numbers.
Wizard wants his enemy's house to spontaneously combust? Wizard has to call up Anur-Shub and ask Anur-Shub to please go set that house on fire.
Wizard wants to teleport? Hey, Adurnac, I have some frequent flyer miles and a fractal I'd like to cash in, take me to Seattle, willya?
Or just...
> Make all of them fae, catboys optional.
>>46960895
>The magician as some kind of scientist tapping into the powers of the universe is mostly a modern invention
You're full of shit. It was Chinese alchemists searching for immortality who invented gunpowder.
>>46960895
I think "scientist magician" stereotype comes from alchemy because it was basically magical pseudoscience.
>>46961051
And thus, ironically, had their lifespans combust.
>>46961051
Western alchemy that had thing with elements, homonculi and turning lead into gold was quite magical too.
>>46961065
A lot of what we think of as "magic", the believers saw as "science". For example, one might ward off evil spirits with a circle of salt, because salt is a purifying substance. It seems supernatural to us because it's different from what we know, but to them it was just how the world worked.
Now, it's true that much of this was attributed to gods and spirits doing certain things when you did certain things, but this too was seen as how the world worked. People tended to think that "the Powers That Be" would act at least somewhat consistently, not too far off from the laws of physics, such that you could do a certain thing and expect a result.
>>46961051
Except they had very little influence on the modern wizard stereotype, and a different cultural context.
The archetypical western fantasy separation of magic vs religion has nothing to do with chinese alchemists.
You can find specific examples of all kinds of things in history and religion without it meaning that that specific thing is related to a modern thing that resembles it. I'm talking about how the stereotype came about.
>>46961065
>>46961086
Alchemists did not consider themselves magicians though. They were philosophers and protoscientists.
Also, western alchemy basically started with the translation of "The composition of Alchemy" in the twelfth century, putting it far later than the other cultural influences for the stereotype, like the Druids etc.
There are no references to homunculi prior to the 16th century and they were very much a fictional thing, inspired by earlier folk traditions.
>>46961124
>magicians as scientists is totally new even though it's old as shit because the east doesn't count
This nigga serious?
>>46958765
Why do they need to be?
>>46960725
That's a pretty mangled version of Persian history.
The Magi were a group (possibly a distinct clan or tribe within Persia) of priests and mystics. While there is debate about the nature of their religion (Personally I think the evidence strongly suggests they originally worshiped deities such as Anahita and Mithra, and fused them with "pure" Zoroastrianism as under-gods to Ahura Mazda) they certainly did exist. They presided over sacrifices, preforming rituals and incantations. As with most Middle-Eastern religions at the time there was a strong astrological component which is very magical, hence the Bibical Magi following the Star. They also practised other forms of divination and acted as court advisors, dream interpretations were very important.
The story you mentioned is the tale spread by Darius I to legitimise his conspiracy to overthrow of the previous king and found his own dynasty. Supposedly a Magi (Gaumata) disguised himself as Bardiya/Smerdis after the real prince was killed by his brother King Cambyses, and then overthrew Cambyses to become the new King. But Darius and co. discover the deception and assasinate the Magi, with Darius assuming the throne.
Totally not a cock and bull story made up to excuse assasinating the son of the founder of the Persian Empire so you can take over. The Magi get a lot of stick for this, but it was mostly this one guy and not a grand Magi plot.
Apuleius of Madaura wrote on the education of Persian princes; "One teaches the magic of Zoroaster, son of Oromazes, which is the worship of the gods". As far as the Romans were concerned these astrologer priest-wizards had a strong claim to be the inventors of a lot of magic.
>>46958765
It's really simple: you make magic interesting and mysterious. The best part is that you can do it purely through fluff. Write up some mystic metaphysical bullshit rules of magic in your setting, and then don't give anyone your crib notes, just describe the SENSATION of magic, the more alien or weird the better. Rename ALL the spells in the book with some gibberish nonsense, and if they want to use the spell, they have to find the NAME of the spell in character first. If you're building a magic system on your own, build spell rolls around an opaque, dedicated stat like MAGIC, or if you want to be more specific, RED MAGIC and BLUE MAGIC and GREEN MAGIC. What makes magic boring is making it scientific, like mages have a clear perception on how magic works and knows how it feels when it works every time. Therefore, you have to make it seem wild and inconsistent so they never know what to expect next. Don't be afraid to use DM Fiat to enforce this. Every once in a random while, tell them their spell failed (though never when they needed it most, just when it's most embarrassing for the character) or give them double damage on their magic missile for no reason.
Now, once you've made magic strange and alien, your wizards will follow suit. Your paranoid players will look terrified of their spell failing at your beheads, or pleadingly to get a bit more extra damage on that fireball. Every discovery of the Jizzerbuttz spell or the Toodeloo incantation will feel like a windfall, and your wizards will become more obtuse and unhinged as they get into their characters.
You can do it anon, you just have to flex those fluff muscles and put in the work. Remember, a wizard is only as interesting and mysterious as his magic, and the less he knows about it, the more it will reflect on him.
>>46959733
>Being this tier retarded
Anon, lack of rules works ONLY in very low magic settings. The moment every single old dude is a wizard and every single village got their own seer, your setting will literally grind into halt, because this shit simply MUST have some codified rules, otherwise it wouldn't be so widespread. It's simple action and reaction. Even if you explain it by "some people can manipulate the Force" it's still a codification. No need for midichlorians, which would be over-codification, but nontheless it's codified.
>>46960658
>By removing them as playable characters
This.
So simple, so effective.
>>46961000
You are at least semi-aware this is already grinded to the ground since at least early 80s, right?
>>46961477
>To solve the problem you must solve the problem
T-thanks!
>>46959237
Yes it it--by definition, mysterious.
>>46959467
Lol U=Mad.
>>46961477
This
>>46961960
>This
>About a post that solves nothing and goes nowhere, but instead waxes for almost 2k signs how easy it is to fix the issue by fixing it
Teens...
>>46961051
>You're full of shit. It was Chinese alchemists searching for immortality who invented gunpowder.
chinese alchemy was rooted in taoism tho
>>46961997
Sure, and the father of genetics was a monk. The idea that religion and science can't be friends is the new one, not that magic and science can't be.
>inb4 fedora memes
>>46961869
>T-thanks!
You're welcome! Make sure to read past the first sentence to all the suggestions I made to solving the problem in your game. You might not quite know what I mean by "solving the problem" otherwise!
>>46961985
>"The post says nothing"
>Post states specific suggestions from the directions of fluff, mechanics, and play.
>tl;dr lol
>>46962103
Anon, it's not how long the post is, but how it gives nothing in the end. It can basically be boiled down to "You must be creative and not share your creation with players. Also - be shit GM who avoids questions". Wow, fucking brilliant, solved everything in a blink of an eye! Especially the part whe it's one of the worst things to give players answers in the vibe of "You can't know that" or arbitrarly declare how they've actions ended.
Mysticism simply doesn't fucking work when you have fucking crunch to run the game, since the crunch by default means there are sure-fire rules behind everything. This post simply says how you should dump all of that, play your very special snowflake homebrew and whenever people ask genuine questions how this shit works, smile to them with smug superiority instead of answering.
So yeah, fucking brilliant "solution".
The real answer to deal with magic and being mystical is taking it completely away from players and reserving it for NPCs. Otherwise you fucking MUST have specific rules, or the people will call you out for shitty GMing and they will have every right to do so.
>>46962063
My answer is here >>46962150, but I can shorten it for you, if you like:
Fuck your shitty advice that is one of the easiest ways to end up as shit-tier GM.
If you are interested about details, go ahead, read the whole post
>>46958765
Wizards are an NPC class.
>>46962150
Anon, Crunch is statistics. A sense of mystery and wonder is not statistical, it's based in Fluff. Do you give a PC a story-relevant sword and call it "Salamandra, the Sword of Asgard", or do you call it +5 fire longsword? Giving context and fluff to an item changes the relationship to the character and as such, the player. Likewise, Wizards only as NPCs doesn't give any fresh interest or mystery to wizards unless you fluff them to be mysterious and interesting. If your NPC Wizards are all Gandalf in different hats, or just comical villains, they don't suddenly become interesting and fresh.
But that's besides the point, because withholding information is a DM's job. It's just yet another form of Bear Lore if you want to get into it, information that is functionally useless, but somehow very difficult to get ahold of. When you tell a player "No, you can't know how magic works in this universe" you're not telling him "No, you can't cast Magic Missile (or whatever you've renamed it to)" You're just telling him that he can't know HOW he cast magic missile, it just worked. People for centuries have used effective folk remedies not knowing how the fuck they worked, they just did. God did it, don't have to 'splain shit. There wasn't a knowledge roll they could make to get over those barriers, just like there's not a knowledge roll your Wizard can make to know how magic works. And if a character doesn't know, THE PLAYER SHOULDN'T KNOW EITHER. Or are you a shitty DM that would feed his players metaknowledge that could easily tie into the end game? Doesn't mean you change the crunch, or the spells per level, or spell lists, just you have a different understanding of the fluff.
And players whose wizard characters don't know how they're doing it, just that they're doing it will reflect that in their character, you know, if they're not grognards, but at that point all they care about is the stats, so you wouldn't get an interesting character out of them anyway.
>>46960001
>>46960074
Abso-fucking-lutely. Just straight up give the player who's playing a magic user the Lesser Key of Solomon.
>>46963104
You don't get it, do you, dumb nigger?
Either you have mystical powers, or you have magic accessable for PCs. This is this rare occurance where there is no middle ground, you dumb shit.
>>46959391
then I guess nobody even fucking try
that's it guys, stop coming up with cool ideas: they're all useless
>2016
>you haven't killed yourself yet
>>46958892
Merlin had rules to his magic.
>>46958765
Play a half spider - Half vampire race, and be a silent climbing assasin
>>46958765
Skullcaps are a good start.
>>46959827
Careful you don't cut yourself with that bismuth
>>46958765
Don't let players be them.
>>46960099
this
gandalf looks pretty much like odin in the old norse storys when he is in disguise
>>46958765
Wizards in my setting, which mostly takes place in Not-Rome, are feared by the state. Who in turn fears them. The wizards retreated to the wilderness where they built towers in seclusion from the world, most kingdoms are willing to let them do their own thing in fear of retaliation. They occasionally take on assistants/apprentices to handle external affairs for them. They operate almost entirely independent from other wizards, though they have a meeting every decade to show off and brag over any new discoveries they made. It's something of a boys club, though.
>>46963919
odin was the direct inspiration for gandalf.
I've already done it myself if my game and setting. You can somewhat do it with fluff, by using the magic systems as an abstraction. But I think really strong mysticsm must be accomplished through fluff and crunch of game rules.
Make all of them catboys, fae optional.
>>46963569
>There are people this retarded on /tg/
Isn't this board adult-only?
>>46959172
>>46959277
>instead of giving your wizards shitloads of spells, most of what they have is contacts in strange places, both high and low.
To expand on this concept, acts of magic could basically "spend" contacts as a cost of use.
Cantrip a magical torch to light your way? Your favorite innkeeper frienddumps you, or passes away.
Hurl a fireball at those orcs? Your friend the King's adviser was a double agent all along. He's stolen important information and fled into the East - the King suspects you in connection.
In this way, the magic user is forced to look for minimum-force solutions to problems and to be constantly working to forge new friendships & alliances, while also providing narrative hooks.
>>46964458
I've got a simple question for you and all the stupid motherfuckers who go for absurd prices for magic powers
Why even bother?
No, really, what's the point of ever using it for anything else than absolutely last resort and extreme emergency? Because what you morons keep on doing is situation where magic is at steep price, but yet somehow widespread and used like there is no tomorrow
>>46958765
Players characters can't use magic.
>>46963707
First rule of magic
Don't talk about magic
>>46964548
This is a phenomenon I've seen a lot recently, especially in old school or grittier games. The idea is to give Wizards great cost to their powers, as to balance any perceived unfairness in the game and engine.
However, I don't think it's a good or healthy way to encourage game balance and makes Wizards unfairly gimped. Remember that they are supposed to be the physically weakest class, with the most gear restrictions and have to carry and buy ridiculous components for their spells. Let the Wizard be a Wizard.
Just me ranting here.
>>46964548
>I don't want to roleplay, just let me roll D6s in peace FUCK YOU
Calling me a stupid motherfucker doesn't make me one, anon.
The point is that "normal" magic systems do not offer interesting choices to the players. The decision to use magic should be a difficult & interesting one to make, or the game becomes extremely boring and you get shit like "I cast magic missile at the darkness" as a matter of course.
>Because what you keep on doing is situation where magic is at steep price, but yet somehow widespread and used like there is no tomorrow
I've seen this and agree that it can be a problem. What do you propose as a solution?
>>46964691
>"I'm allergic to change" - The Post
Letting the wizard be the wizard results in end-state 3.5e. Obviously something is deeply wrong with just letting the wizard be the wizard.
>>46964700
>Here, let's counter that with strawman!
Not even the other anon, but boy, oh boy...
>>46964727
No no, you misunderstood and didn't read between the lines in my post.
I said encourage healthy game balance, not give Wizards huge amounts of power easily, but don't punish them for doing what they are supposed to do. Nobody thinks it's a good idea to make Fighters experiemce horrible back pain after they use their special attacks, nor make Thieves go blind after they pick a lock, so why should Wizards get negatives for using their powers? They are already conceptually supposed to pay for these powers with their weakness and speciality, let the Wizard be a fucking Wizard.
>>46964736
It's not a straw-man.
It's an answer to his question... "Why give magic a price?"
>>46964458 Is an interesting price to consider, because it leaves the DM a lot of discretion and gives them ways to expand and advance the narrative. The idea that it is just arbitrarily "too high" of a price because some shithead anon says so is silly.
>>46964458
None of these are remotely worth the cost. How the hell is lighting a torch without using a mundane light source worth "one of your favourite acquaintances either dies or hates you"?
Wizards in this setting would be fucking idiots.
>>46959657
I suppose the classic counter there is "The royal bloodline has divine favor, and the gods don't look kindly on usurping sorcerors".
There's a reason why the land tends to fall into ruin when the evil court wizard takes over, and it's usually not because he prefers things that way.
>>46964778
>Nobody thinks it's a good idea to make Fighters experiemce horrible back pain after they use their special attacks
I do...
>don't punish them for doing what they are supposed to do
>They are already conceptually supposed to pay for these powers with their weakness and speciality
Pure bullshit and you know it.
>>46964857
They were FUCKING EXAMPLES. When you give someone an EXAMPLE you employ HYPERBOLE to get the POINT across because you're all too slow to make inferences on your own.
>>46961471
underrated post, can confirm, classical philology major.
>>46959327
You are such a cock, Holy shit.
>>46959391
You want some fun ideas? Too bad, go fuck yourself and git gud.
>>46964899
>They were FUCKING EXAMPLES. When you give someone an EXAMPLE you employ HYPERBOLE to get the POINT across because you're all too slow to make inferences on your own.
No, when you give someone examples they're supposed to be actually representative of the sort of thing they're supposed to do.
>>46964816
>It's not a strawman
>>46964691
>Remember that they are supposed to be the physically weakest class, with the most gear restrictions and have to carry and buy ridiculous components for their spells.
Depends on the system, but if we're talking D&D, wizards aren't strictly weaker than anyone else - they just don't typically spend their stats on strength because they have better things they can do. They might have less HP, but more ways to avoid damage (flight, intangibility, etc). Likewise, if gear restrictions mean they can't wear armour or use weapons, they usually have other ways to defend themselves or hurt people. And component costs are typically handwaved - for good reason, since irritating bookkeeping isn't fun, nor does it make the game balanced.
What is actually supposed to balance wizards is requiring spells to be prepared in advance, limiting the number of spells the wizard can use in a day, and making sure spells have very specific effects - so a wizard can easily be stumped if they don't prepare the right spells, or don't use them sparingly. But these limitations have been undermined in various ways, and some people dislike Vancian casting, so they look for other approaches.
I agree >>46964458 sounds too extreme. If each spell costs you a friend, the spells need to have major effects. The choice needs to be exciting. "You can bring someone back from the dead, but it will cost you the life of a loved one" is a classic example of a magical trade-off, creating a magic lightbulb is not.
My campaign revolves around the idea that magic is destroying the universe and has been since it's inception, something that was never meant to be, it's only just been discovered by a few schools and it's up to the players to cut off the plane of magic to this reality permanently or otherwise seal it indefinitely. This presents a huge challenge with wizards/sorcerers.
>>46964778
>you didn't read between the lines in my post
>>46964691
>squishy wizard
Opinion instantly discarded
>>46964816
Anon, >>46964458 is shit incarnated, since this is a classic case of too high price to even bother combined with inability to make proper examples. He could make them better, but he didn't. He could make a reasonable argument, but he didn't. He could explain it in detail, but he didn't.
In short - fuck that guy. This is net. I'm not going to guess what some motherfucker had in his mind, because the only clue I've got is piece of text. No voice, no facial expression, no gesture. And the way this motherfucker put it, it's utter and complete shit.
>>46960001What's RPM?
>>46964816
>Here, take this magical lamp
>Oh, and your first-born died because of it
Right... Totally not "too high"
As rabid as it was, this >>46964548 anon already put the problem. If the price is high, you can't have high-magic setting. Simply because nobody will throw around spells like crazy with high cost attatched. Is it really so hard to grasp this is neither the way to make wizards interesting (high prices for magic are older than dirt when it comes to cliches) nor makes magic practical.
You've simply created a low magic setting with magic so absurdly unwieldy there is no point bothering with it unless you are insane and/or couldn't care less.
>>46958765
Play one in Traveller.
No magic for PCs. Either you keep magic as a narrative, or as a tool for players to use.
>>46964899
>When you give someone an EXAMPLE you employ HYPERBOLE to get the POINT across because you're all too slow to make inferences on your own.
>I don't understand what an example is
>Nor how to employ them
>>46958765
>interesting
>mysterious
Pick one. Seriously.
If magic is a mystery to everyone, then there's nothing to it beyond "it just works because I said so", which isn't interesting. You're literally telling players not to think about it.
You wouldn't be able to say that one mage is more powerful than another, or that a certain mage knows a certain spell, or that he's running out of spells, or that he cast a spell but it failed, because that implies there are objective facts to be known.
If magic has rules and limits, even counter-intuitive ones that vary from mage to mage, they can be understood with enough effort, and then that particular kind of magic will no longer be mysterious.
>>46958765
Turn them back into the few, lofty sages of arcane knowledge they were meant to be.
>>46964888
There are an equal number if not greater number of countries who did pretty well without their destined king. King Arthur clearly hasn't been needed yet.
>>46958765
I'll try to think of something, then write it.
They finally made kice with the Church Heirarchy and enjoy getting fat in monasteries or as aides to a king. Magic itself, however, is much like "our" magic. If it can be put to true, empirical scrutiny it almost immediately loses its power. So Wizzards do their best to control svientific discovery through manipulation of the Church.
It's only in the Kingdoms, Princedoms, and Duchies where they seek to reform or purify the church and the Heirarchy has no power.
After all, how horrible would it be to learn for every action there s an equal and opposite reaction?
>>46964976
I agree with you, which is why I said 'conceptually'. The Wizard in a perfect game, in my opinion, would be the weakest at fighting and have the worst equips, but would have magic power. Even if magic power was a little stronger than martial abilities, it would be 'balanced' due to the limitations of the Wizard.
Or another way to put it, imagine if classes were balanced on a point system. Say good fighting skills and high HP cost a point each. Thieves being skilled and sneaky costs two points. If magical power cost 3, then a Wizard would get +1 from being physically less durable. This is balanced, conceptually.
In actual practice? You're right that DnD and many game systems don't balance Wizards properly. Even with the cost systems people put forth, it STILL wouldn't really balance the character right. If the Wizard has huge power but risks a mutation or a crippling with spells, it still wouldn't really balance them because you are not your character; it would be like playing a character with a free Wish spell, but goes into a coma when it was cast. This character would still be better than the other ones due to power gap.
The only real way, and best way, to balance Wizards in DnD and in general is to lower the power of individual spells and give Wizards magical utility beyond just their single nuke and then they're limp.
Do as I do.
>>46959870
It can be done if you play fast and loose with the rules for magic
I think that you can allow a PC to be a wizard if they are creative with spells. let them think of an effect and give them a DC rating, limit their use of fantasy stuff like fire ball and encourage use of RP oriented cantrips.
>>46959172
To be fair, he was pretty good with a sword as well. He didn't need to use magic for the most basic things.
>>46959752
He also had some illusion magic - at one point he made Arthur's army seem several times bigger than it actually was to give the young king a fair chance in a fight.
>>46965556
I think you're at the heart of the problem. As counterintuitive it sounds, mystery really kills interest. Tricks and customs that might work in a myth don't work here, because we are talking about a game with rules instead - eventually everything a character does comes attached with a numerical value to be fed to the game's resolution engine. You can make a wizard's numbers bigger or smaller, but can't obscure them completely from the player.
Make all of them fae cats, boy optional.
>>46967232
Cat Sidhe best Sidhe.
>>46966993
Which is why you remove them as player characters.
Wizards become lame as fuck the moment you plop them down in the rulebook as something that must be "balanced" next to a guy who really likes to shoot things with a bow, with the entire progression and every ability outlined.
Either that, or severely limit what kind of magic character players are allowed to play, like you know, runaway apprentices or people with some magical talent that adds some flair instead of being their main mode of accomplishing everything.
Magic is better as a plot device or a worldbuilding element than something that needs to be "fair" next to stabby punchy abilities and 90% geared towards beating dungeons.
>>46958765
They must be virgins to cast magic
>>46967398
It's not about balance. It's not about giving players the option. Using totally undefined magic as a plot device isn't interesting, because it's hollow and there's no point in wondering how it works. It's not even really a thing, it's just a word the GM says when things don't make sense.
>>46960821
Personally, I'm not a fan of the Chosen One model, and I think, if anything, it would make wizards less interesting, because they never chose this life.
A mortal man willing to give up everything, and dedicate his life to alien forces, whose goals he may find detestable, for abstract powers he may never master is a much more fascinating tale, to me at least.
But how you actually take the first step into the crawling abyss is a great secret. One nearly impossible to discover, and harder to accept.
>>46967232
fae catboys are the shittiest meme to come out of /tg/
>>46959614
As far as I know they just got people really high.
>>46963405
>The solution is to be a decent GM and fluff the shit out of your magic.
>You're a nigger
Not that anon, but just adding some fucking lore to your spells goes a long way. Dark Souls does this and it does wonders for adding a bit of mystery to an otherwise simple as hell magic system. Bonus points if you can see the influence of prominent casters while out exploring.
Does it allow the same amount of mystery as just walling off magic from your players? No. You're going to lose a certain amount of mystique because you'll know what the spell does. That's a reality. But rebranding spells with names more interesting than 'fireball' and adding a bit of lore behind their creation and possibly their casting process is going to make magic much more interesting for your players than just a list of damage dice and a mana cost.
>>46970637
Lore behind a spell in d1 and d2
Only an obstinate prejudice about this period could blind us to a certain change which comes over the merely literary texts as we pass from the Middle Ages to the sixteenth century. In medieval story there is, in one sense, plenty of “magic”. Merlin does this or that “by his subtilty”, Bercilak resumes his severed head. But all these passages have unmistakably the note of “faerie” about them. But in Spenser, Marlowe, Chapman, and Shakespeare the subject is treated quite differently. “He to his studie goes”; books are opened, terrible words pronounced, souls imperiled. The medieval author seems to write for a public to whom magic, like knight-errantry, is part of the furniture of romance: the Elizabethan, for a public who feel that it might be going on in the next street. Neglect of this point has produced strange readings of The Tempest, which is in reality Shakespeare’s play on magia as Macbeth is his play on goeteia
>>46970637
>Still not getting it
And you wonder why you are called nigger?
>>46958765
don't make them a character class.
There is no one Wozard. Everyone is Wizard by dint of the enviromemt. Magoc is readily avaliable, and as you shape it, you get better at that kind of shaping it.
That's what I do.
>>46959327
>"Not trolling, not using bait."
I like to add some sort of 'religious experience' or enlightenment to the very way in which a wizard learns magic.
Every spell a wizard knows should be learned after hours of meditation and study of its inherent concepts. There are no 'spell formulas' but writings of other wizards explaining their understanding and moment of clarity, as they grasped absolute understanding of how to, for example, call forth a flame using nothing but their will.
Their tomes might well contain ballads, describing in detailed verse a god recounting how it felt to shape bolts of lightning into javelins in some primeval war, passed down to his followers long ago.
Wizards should travel on 'pilgrimages' to sites of particular gravitas, be it a monastery in which an ancient gods sacred flame is at the center of worship, to a desert to learn of the scorching majesty of the sun with their own body or to a volcano to behold the intensity of a flame capable of melting rock - all in the search of that one moment of clarity and inspiration.
Every truly powerful spell should be earned through a 'quest' in the traditional sense, in a shaping experience in which the wizard grows in a metaphysical sense.
There certainly might be many dabblers who know some minor cantrips, but true mastery of magic requires incredible dedication and personal growth.
Some die along the way, others are seduced by demonic promises of power, but those who successfully follow this path inevitably shape themselves into heroes of myth.
In a way I see wizards as a counterpart to the monk, both reaching for a form of metaphysical mastery, just in different ways.
>>46974845
Different interpretations of a spell could make it manifest in different ways.
In game terms it could be based on stats, method, what the player says he does when trying to learn the spell, alignment.
Lightning Bolt by the god fearing wizard is lightning striking down from the heavens.
The cruel wizards Lightning Bolt is Force Lightning.
The stoic wizards Lightning Bolt is more of a straight beam from his forehead.
The simple minded street urchin or old guardsman who have become a wizard fires a crossbow bolt from his figures infused with lightning.
>>46958765
By making magic interesting and mysterious again.
It should be a community plot device, not fire bending and jedi super powers.
>How to make magic mysterious and interesting
>Don't give it to players lol
>>46961910
you're retarded, arent you?
>>46959512
>Magic isn't even clearly defined in middle earth
it seriously is, though
you can read any of Tolkien's letters or, hell, I'm pretty sure it's in the Silmarillion. He makes a big deal about creation vs. "sub-creation" and it's actually quite interesting
>>46958765
Don't let players play them. Don't have them take an active role in the story. Wizards aren't the heroes or the villains but advisors. They manipulate, build relationships, and know a whole lot of things, but what makes the Wizard stand out is that despite the power he has, he rarely uses it. Most of the things he does any charismatic and knowledgable bloke could do.
>>46975385
Maybe because this is the answer to the question and will repeat itself each time the question is asked?
>>46975385
>Have a magic man in your travelling troupe of murderous graverobbers.
>See the magic man use magic spells several times a day.
>Have heard every story the magic man has about becoming magic like a dozen times.
>Accidentally caught the magic man masturbating one time when you had the night's first watch.
There's no mystery when you know enough about the mystery to blackmail it.
>>46977060
>the magic man didn't just turn himself invisible before he did his business
he WANTED you to watch, bro. wizards are all fucked in the head, they get off on that shit
>>46972528
>>46963405
Maybe you're the one that doesn't get it, anon. Mystery isn't contained in access, it's contained in information. Taking away magic from PCs doesn't make it mysterious if the nature of magic is already known, and having access to magic and the nature of magic being mysterious are not mutually exclusive. If you can't understand that very basic idea, then it's no wonder to me that you can't see beyond your limited grognard mindset.
>>46958765
Mystery arises when there's something doing SOMETHING that you care about, but you don't know how.
You know that there's a black box, and that there's something inside the black box (it doesn't happen 'just because'), but you don't know what the thing inside the box is.
The wizard does.
Make magic something only wizards can 'really' see.
I know this is a shitty example, but in Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, only Stand Users can see Stands. Only Hamon users can breathe just right to use Hamon.
Wizards have some sort of quirk that allows them to see another level of reality, and that reality changes all of the time.
So the wizard can see a phantasm creeping up on someone, but even if that person might not actually be affected by the ghostly creature, the wizard might mistake it for an actual wolf or threat, shoving someone aside for 'no reason'.
Dhampirs were supposed to be able to see vampires, even when said vampires were invisible, so they could fight this phantasmal being, so maybe Wizards are the only type of people that can really interact with this level of reality in a conscious fashion- literally punching someone's soul in the right place could cause them to change wildly, for example, even though nobody else would understand what had happened.
They're seeing something that can't really be explained to non-wizards, all the time, like a sixth sense.
>>46978570
If you have magic for PCs, you MUST explain how it works and create a rigid framework for it. That's simply inevitable.
Which means you are replacing mysticism with set-in-stones rules and magic A is magic A, period.
But hey, I'm expecting from stupid nigger like you to get such basic concept as "explainations kill mystery". When PCs don't have access to magic, there is simply no need to explaining anything nor creating any rules and magic turns into a tool for GM.
>>46979282
It must be explained how it works in dice on the player level, yes, but what goes on in a game is more than the specific abstractions you ascribe to it. You don't have to explain how the dice are related to the action, you only have to explain how dice are related to the result. I mean, it's pretty obvious a fireball will do damage, but that doesn't mean the wizard can explain how that fireball was cast or how his casting was related to a fireball coming out of his hand. It just works, ya know?
But hey, I don't expect a grognard like you to be able to separate mechanical abstractions from narrative understanding and manufacturing player motivations.
>>46965244
GURPS Thaumatology: Ritual Path Magic
>>46959846
>>46959905
There's actually a PrC for 3.5 called the Charlatan that's devoted entirely into tricking people into thinking you're magic. It's got neat stuff like letting you use flash paper and gunpowder to simulate a few spells, convincing people you've healed them, and bluffing enemy spellcasters so well they get counterspelled.
http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/classes/prestige/general/charlatan.shtml
>>46979411
>How to be shit GM running god-awful homebrew: The Post
Not the original anon, but holy shit, you sir are retarded.
If you would pull something like that with anyone but completely green players, they would simply leave. And for good reason
>>46970061
Not even close.
Doctor Strange. that's how.
Here's a good example of a wizard done right froma WoW roleplay
>Hanging out in a bar with some friends
>Suddenly an old man in a funny hat walks in
>He orders three wines and three stouts, then walks out.
>Five minutes pass and the old man comes again, repeats his order, and walks out.
>An edgy rogue in the corner speaks up, claims the old man is a drunkard
>A barmaid insists he is a regular, and always orders his drinks in 18s.
>Five minutes pass and the old man returns yet again, orders six more drinks, and walks out.
>A priest tries to stop him on the way out, asking if he needs some help.
>The old man shrugs and says something about fig trees, then walks past the confused priest
>The rogue stands up from his drink and waits by the door for the old man
>When he comes yet again, the rogue accosted him, "What the hell are you doing drunkard?"
>The old man ignores him, and orders six more, completing his 18.
>He turns and walks out, only to set up a campfire and slowly sings to himself.
>Everyone follows him outside, and the edgelord calls the guards
>The guards question the peculiar old man, to which he stands up and begins the strangest tale I have ever heard.
>Something about a knight named January who courts a woman called May, but his marriage is called into question by Mars and Athena.
>He finishes his tale by saying that every 18 months, the seasons must be appeased, else the marriage of the sky and earth shall fall apart.
>A knight steps up and asks him what the 'appeasing' entails
>The old man states that it is complete, and congratulates us in doing our parts so well.
>He then takes up his cane, walks away, and is never seen again.
Wizards: Always Mysterious
>>46965596
This is how I would do it.
Wizards should be sparse.
Spells should be few and far between; No wizard, especially a wizardly PC, should be walking around with a whole library of spells to choose from - creating a new spell from scratch or finding instructions on how to cast a spell should eb a momentous occasion.
Spells should generally be subtle things too; enchantments, wards, divinations and the like for the most part. Spells that deal direct damage or have very obvious physical effects should be some super-high-level shit.
A wizards primary skills are his knowledge; no-one should know more than the wizard except in certain specialised subjects. The wizard should be the guy you turn to when you need to know how to defeat Balgruuf the Invincible. The wizard is the guy who knows how to lift the curse on the Sword of Vanishing.
>>46958839
>>46959327
Just putting this out there, but it seems like OP created this thread to try to get advice on HOW to better portray Wizards. As such, "lol git gud fag" is just telling him to do that thing he's already trying to do.
>>46959614
Merlin, Faust or the "witch" that's central to every culture that figured out how to write. Also the mages from the bible.
>>46958765
Every wizard has the voice of Nicol Williamson.
>>46977060
>"Guys, the wizard jerks it!"
>"... And?"
That's one of the lamest attempts at Blackmail I've ever heard. What, are you going to walk around telling people how you caught the wizard jacking it?
>>46981685
>How to lack any and all reading comprehension: The Post
Jesus Christ, anon, where the fuck did I specify mechanics and shit? The only thing "homebrew" I'm talking about is LORE. You don't change magic mechanics, the numbers stay the same, you change how you fucking describe magic and how you treat magic in lore. How in the hell did you get I wanted to do some sort of homebrew to enforce this?
