>Drinks are on me edition
Discuss the viability of the Warcraft universe as a tabletop RPG setting. Have fun, don't be an autist, and keep your cool. This is not /v/.
>Previous thread:
>>46422785
Found this in the depths of my Imgur album.
>>46449031
Damn jaina's gotten....intense
>>46448841
>>46448841
Alright anons but some heart and thinking into this.
In Wow let's say that after the sundering Humans ended up in Kalimdor, instead of the eastern kingdoms. How would this change the political, social, and cultural aspects of the different races in WoW? What would play out differently?
Here are my thoughts on this:
In the Eastern Kingdoms:
>The Amani Empire is still alive and powerful, and therefore are able to halt the Orcish invasions, although it would weaken the empire
>Blood Elven Kingdom is strong enough to hold the Amani Empire back and remain independent thanks to their magic.
>Orcs invade, but are defeated, they later relocate somewhere else in the Eastern Kingdom and form a new nation (since humans aren't there with their 7 kingdoms and shit).
>Dwarves are Dwarves and not give a shit like a boss. But probably helps the Amani defeat the Orcs. I also believe the different clans would be far closer since there is a huge empire next door.
Kalimdor:
>There are always huge tensions between the Night Elves and Humans due to their cultures.
>Since they evolve in a different continent than the Eastern Kingdoms I would say that Human aesthetic and culture would more closely resemble the East such as Arabia, India, and Japan (not China because Panda has that going on) than the more Western aesthetics Eastern Kingdoms Humans have.
>With two large Empires in the continent (Humans and Night Elves) the Tauren would unite in an effort to stand up and balance the Human and Night Elven powers.
>Humans and the united Taurens participate in the War of the Shifting Sands with the Elves and Dragon Flights and is probably the only time they worked with the Night Elves on something, this would ease tensions, although there are still mistrust among them.
>I see the Taurens as more of the peaceful diplomats here in an effort to avoid a disastrous war between the humans and night elves.
>>46449510
Well you'd probably get intense too if the Horde took advantage of your wizard buddies' hospitality to magi-nuke your city.
>>46449605
Also yes yes the following:
>No Arthas scourge invasion
>Blood Elves are still High Elves and shit
But anyway think of something good anons!
>>46449031
Silly Jaina, Varian's a Warrior and Dismantle is a Rogue ability.
>>46449631
The Sunreaver involvement in the original Theramore nuke was a single Traitor who even the Sunreavers put a deathmark on.
It was after she'd calmed down the first time that the Sunreavers were (Unwillingly) complicit in giving Garrosh ANOTHER super weapon.
>>46449510
No one listened to her when she was nice, so she changed her tune.
>>46449656
I was simplifying. The point is, it was a hard week to be Jaina Proudmoore.
>>46449605
>>Blood Elven Kingdom is strong enough to hold the Amani Empire back and remain independent thanks to their magic.
That's a bit of a stretch. Didn't humans save the high elves during the Troll Wars? And did the humans save the elves from starvation and freezing during their journey to the future site of Quel'Thalas or am I getting my lore mixed up?
>>46449605
The Orcish invasion wouldn't have been in the Eastern Kingdoms without the Humans being there since it required human arcanists to get the attention of the Legion and then found the Council to try to deal with that and then to have Aegwyn give birth to a posessed Medivh.
>>46449656
Well Aethas Sunweaver recommened the guy to Jaina himself.
He really can't say its not his fault.
Three islands, charted by the alliance (Since I found this in the Highelf part of Hinterlands) far to the west of Kalimdor in the Veiled/Forbidding sea
I wonder what they are.
(Also fucking Krasarang jungle practically touching the south pole)
>>46449736
>Didn't humans save the high elves during the Troll Wars?
the elves taught 100 humans magic, those 100 humans proceeded to DBZ out a flamestrike so big it destroyed an entire Amani army in one go, winning the war in one go
>>46449736
Nope, you got the lore right.
Humans saved high elves from extinction three times.
First when they were jouneying to would be Quel'thalas and were starving and freezing.
Second is the Troll war, King Arathor agreed to the alliance on the ground that elves train human mages.
Third is in the second war where alliance held off the Horde.
>>46449908
>>46449876
Pic fucking related.
Ritual-cast flamestrike when Blizzard?
>>46450043
>every raid becomes 10-25 mages destroying everything with flamestrikes
>by the time you hit level 100 they don't even have cooldowns
Kael'thas approves
>>46449107
Well warning his people and killing gul'dan would be enough to pacify the greenies
>Arakkoa are the coolest side race in WoD
>their one dungeon is the second worst in the expansion
at least Spires of Arak was cool
>>46449664
>mfw that composition I made is all over the internets.
Thalmor feels because I have zero artistic ability to make a NE one.
>>46450141
Here's the thing. Seeing the future doesn't necessarily mean you should go around changing things. As we know, the orcish horde attacking azeroth was terrible, but if someone had changed that from happening, the burning legion would have destroyed the world. We don't know everything that velen sees. For all we know, he keeps silent because the things he sees need to happen for the greater good. More likely though, blizzard is just being dumb.
>>46450387
I heard someone here say that the reason he never acts on his visions is because it takes a long time to lock down the "best" course of action and future, and in a lot of cases even the best one is pretty shit
>>46450462
Makes sense to me. And let's face it. Despite what everyone may say about velen, he's managed to keep his people alive with the burning legion on their heels for 25,000 years. I'd trust his judgement.
Bloodsworn's timeline placement was really weird, but I enjoyed it a lot.
>>46450196
The part that made it the worst was that fucking wind maze thing.
>>46450627
>The part that made it the worst was that fucking wind maze thing.
I seriously don't know what the fuck they were thinking with that. For the first 3 bosses it's a straight boss rush, then they add in that stupid wind that adds an extra 3 minutes to a 5 foot walk unless your healer is a priest with Body and Soul. It literally makes no fucking sense at all, even beyond the normal level of Blizzard not making sense
>>46450566
his plan for staying alive was running away on his UFO. Then it crash landed on draenor and they had to fight. Instead Velen let them die.
>>46450681
>I seriously don't know what the fuck they were thinking with that. For the first 3 bosses it's a straight boss rush, then they add in that stupid wind that adds an extra 3 minutes to a 5 foot walk unless your healer is a priest with Body and Soul. It literally makes no fucking sense at all, even beyond the normal level of Blizzard not making sense
Or if you have someone on the garrison inn feather quest to give everyone super-jumps.
>>46450729
The draenei never had the strength to stand against the legion by themselves, so running away makes perfect sense. As for what happened on draenor, he tried to make peace with the orcs, and when that failed he accepted that they had to fight. It's not his fault that the orcs were far more numerous than the draenei, and had legion support. Velen didn't "let" anyone die. He did what he could, and tried to salvage what he could from a shitty situation. The only alternative outcome for the war on draenor was the complete extinction of the draenei. Thankfully, velen wasn't stupid enough to just let his people die out completely.
>>46450736
>Or if you have someone on the garrison inn feather quest to give everyone super-jumps.
fuck I should try the Bleeding Hollow orb there next time, thanks anon
>>46450814
no, when he saw that the orcs were not listening to him, he should have prepared to fight. Kill off the clans before they tried to unite and mount a counterattack. He did neither.
>>46450814
He didn't do shit through the entire Rise of the Horde.
He literally just watched as the orcs wiped out 80% of the Draenei population.
>>46450822
That gives TOO much fo a super jump, you just want the bunny hop from the feather.
>>46450822
Bleeding Hollow Orb IS good for the Mask of the Skulltaker Harrison Jones quest however, if you're a class with relatively few mobility options like warrior it's the only way past the trance-breaking skulls.
>>46450918
>wiped out 80% of the Draenei population.
That's probably a little on the generous side for the Orcs.
More cringey shit from Stormrage:
>Broll worrying about Valeera's addiction during the pre-cataclysm events of the book when the Neo Sunwell had already been around at least two years.
>>46450871
>>46450918
I don't remember all the details from Rise of the Horde, and I'm not at home to check the book. However I recall velen trying to go to oshu'gun, and after that failed he accepted that his people would have to go to war. I may be wrong, but weren't the orcs united at the time? Maybe not in the form of the horde, but still allied to fight the draenei? I recall durotan being ordered to prevent the velen from making it to oshu'gun.
>Kill off the clans before they tried to unite and mount a counterattack.
That seems unreasonable. The orcs were the first to go on the offensive, so saying the draenei should have killed the clans first doesn't make any sense. There's also the fact that, for the most part, draenei are a peaceful race. Attempting to completely wipe people isn't what they do. Not to mention that no orc clan is a pushover, and even if they tried to wipe one out, it would take some time, and word would be sent to the other orc clans.
>>46451263
yes but they have technology and magic. They have those technomagical constructs and shit. They could at least attempt to defend themselves instead of dying in a onesided fight
>>46449031
Wait..she looks like--
>You're..going to LOVE ME
>>46451263
No Velen requested for a meeting with Ner'zhul. Ner'zhul sent durotan and captured him instead.
then he did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING except hiding like a coward through out the entire war.
The Warcraft history is basically saying "being nice is stupid, you should be evil bastard and apologize later when shit hit the fan. Not only you get what you want but you can still pass yourself as a good guy!"
I seem to remember reading about a fifht dragon of nightmare in moonglade and brief awakening of Malfurion tied to AQ40 opening up. Did that happen or am i just crazy?
>>46451456
Eranikus, Tyrant of the Dream.
Yes he was part of the AQ opening quest chain.
It is one of the most memorable world raid.
He also appears in the god awful novel stormrage and sacrificed himself to save Ysera.
>>46451355
They DID defend themselves. Blizzard just thought that it didn't matter, so they get beaten seemingly easily. Also, the orcs have magic too. Both through shamans, and later warlocks. And while orcs may not have the technology of the draenei, they were more numerous, and thanks to warlocks, were able to summon in demons to fight for them. Now please do not get me wrong. I love draenei, and absolutely hate how blizzard dealt with them on draenor. It doesn't do them any justice.
>>46451468
I am currently trying to slog through Stormrage and I was trying to figure out who this "One hated green dragon" was.
>>46451534
just read the wiki, there's no reason to suffer through stormrage just to see who the dragon is.
>>46451410
>then he did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING except hiding like a coward through out the entire war.
That's not true. Just because he wasn't personally fighting doesn't mean he was doing nothing. Velen has the gift of seeing the future. He tried time and time again to find a path that would ensure the survival of his people. It was the best he could do for them at the time.
>>46451555
No, i am suffering through stormrage just for the sake of suffering. (Don't worry, i didn't pay for it.)
I also need to see if there is a less shitty epub of Vol'jin out when i get home tomorrow.
>>46451578
Yeah and the path he found was apparently doing nothing.
Sitting there thinking all day is not actually doing something.
We mock people who do that because they are functionally useless.
Coming up with a actual plan would be doing something.
He just sat there and let orc wipe out 80% of his people.
>>46451410
In fairness, the draenei would have been largely safe in their cloaked cities if Velen just hadn't trusted Durotan and Orgrim.
>>46451649
Never did like that particular twist to the story.
>>46451580
Well you are sort of M then I guess its ok.
I heard Vol'jin: Shadows of the Horde is pretty fun?
>>46451691
I only hope it fortells a silly gryphonrider homage to Stavkpole's X-Wing books.
>>46451649
so you are saying not only Velen was useless.
He actually fucked over draenei with his stupidity?
Wow, what a leader he was.
>>46451610
>Coming up with a actual plan
That's exactly what he was doing. He sat there night and day gazing into the future to see what course of action would actually work. He didn't just sit there and theorycraft or something.
>>46451724
>Velen is stupid for looking after a couple of lost orc kids during a time where there were no hostilities
>>46451724
No, Durotan and Orgrim fucked over the draenei. Velen's goodwill towards them was many years before the orcs went murdercrazy.
>>46451729
And he came up with NOTHING.
Therefore he was useless.
Its not a very difficult concept to grasp.
>>46451762
>>46451767
Durotan won't got his hand on the ata'mal crystal if he didn't go to the meeting and get captured like a idiot.
And why didn't he foresee the orcs attacking Draenei anyway?
again, being nice is retarded in WoW, no good ever came from it.
>>46451780
>And he came up with NOTHING.
there's still draenei left, so his plan was better than whatever you'd come up with
>>46451780
He came up with nothing because there was nothing that could be done to prevent their defeat. It was completely outside of their control. They were doomed to lose, simple as that. How does any of that make velen useless?
>>46451802
There's still draenei left because his brave subordinates sacrificed themselves to make it look like the orcs wiped out the draenei.
He still did nothing through out the entire war
Insulting me will not change the fact that he was a terrible leader.
>>46451814
Start the retreat effort earlier instead of wait until most of his people are wiped out?
Run away on their space ships before things deteriorate?
Or at least join the battle and reduce casualties?
>>46451819
>He still did nothing
You keep saying that. His method of leadership is to gaze into the future to find the proper path. Where a normal leader would attempt to do something and fail, velen would see that outcome beforehand and attempt to find a different way. Just because you can't comprehend this method doesn't mean he was doing nothing.
>>46451801
>Durotan won't got his hand on the ata'mal crystal if he didn't go to the meeting and get captured like a idiot.
He was trying to find a peaceful solution. It was a risk, but being Good often is in times of conflict. You act as if it's a flaw that he doesn't act like a metagaming munchkin.
>And why didn't he foresee the orcs attacking Draenei anyway?
Is there ANY setting outside of D&D where you can get visions on demand? Just because he's a prophet doesn't mean he's omniscient.
>>46451869
And his proper path is just sit there and watch 80% of his people get slaughtered like pigs.
What a leader.
And no he is not all seeing as you say, he actually have his choose altered by his subordinates.
If his future-seeing is as strong as you say he would never need to do that.
>>46451863
Now I know you don't know what you're talking about.
>Start the retreat effort earlier instead of wait until most of his people are wiped out?
Retreat to where? The orcs would hunt them down. That's the whole reason why most of the draenei had to die. So the orcs would think they got wiped out, so they wouldn't search for them.
>Run away on their space ships before things deteriorate?
The only ship on draenor at the time was oshu'gun, which was inoperable.
>Or at least join the battle and reduce casualties?
And what would that have accomplished? He could not turn the tide of the war, and the orcs would not stop until the draenei were wiped out completely.
>>46451875
I thought he can see the path before he do something?
How could he not see himself getting captured?
The above post are saying his prophet ability is literally meta-gaming, yet you tell me he can't do that?
So can he see the future or can he not?
Velen can get vision on demand is basically what No.46451869 is saying.
So which one of you have the correct version of Velen's ability anyway??
>>46451889
Well, what should he have done? The draenei couldn't flee, couldn't hide, and didn't have the numbers to fight. He tried diplomacy, which failed, but what else was there to do?
>>46451889
Velen is not a military leader. Perhaps his presence on the battlefield would have raised morale, but it was not going to win them the war. The best thing he could do for his people was to use his future sight to try and find a way to survive. It failed, but so what? Do you call everyone useless when the fail at something? His future sight is the only reason the draenei survived as long as they have. Relying on it was the best thing he could do at the time.
We get it, the fall of the Draenei was poorly crafted from a storytelling perspective. Can we please move on?
Anyone have bits of trivia from the old noncanon RPGs that don't directly contradict the current canon and are also interesting?
I like some of the story bits it gave items like Kang the Decapitator.
>>46451913
Unfortunately I don't have the book on hand for a direct quote, but I distinctly remember him saying that he looked into the future to try and find a way for them to survive, but each path ended in their destruction. Take from that what you will.
>>46451902
Tempest keep of course, they had a bunch space ships.
and since they actually managed to hide in draenor till Alliance kicked Horde's butt back to Draenor, there's obviously some place they can lay low.
There's draenei still now, obviously he could reduced the number of casualities in battle considering his strength.
>>46451913
Well, we're different people with different interpretations. I don't think we've ever gotten the impression that his foresight is something he can control THAT easily.
Basically, I don't think there was much Velen could have done. Shit was gonna suck for the draenei one way or another.
>>46451975
Tempest keep only arrived to help them very very late. Velen may have also been calling OUT for the Naaru in his meditations, acting as a big blue distress beacon.
>>46451957
how Malfurion fight like a punk is interesting.
He just get a bunch of dudes to attack--> run away into the forest --> get another bunch of dudes to attack.
>>46451975
Tempest keep didn't show up until well after draenor exploded. Are you trolling or did you honestly not know this? I can't tell.
>>46451968
So he should at least foreseen himself getting captured and the crystal taken?
>>46452001
So he can't see the future and therefore he literally did nothing in the war?
I am really confused.
He either can see the future and makes stupid mistakes.
Or he can't see the future and just sat on his ass.
Which one is it?
>>46452003
Lore has it that Khadgar called out to anyone listening to try and get help against the legion. A'dal answered and later showed up in Tempest keep.
>>46451889
IIRC, the whole having to let a fuckton of people be slaughtered was to show Archimonde/Kil'Jaeden so they would think all the draenei had been wiped out.
>>46452028
>So he should at least foreseen himself getting captured and the crystal taken?
Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. I honestly can't remember much of the conversation between him and Durotan at the time, nor do I remember he said or thought anything about it before or after. Also I think it's safe to say that his visions don't work so small scale. He may be able to see that his people will go to war and lose, but he may not be able to see exactly what made that happen. It's really up to interpretation.
>>46452032
I thought the Draenei were already on board at that point.
>>46452028
Obviously he can see the future, but that doesn't mean he can just use it like some sort of Google Street View function, that's not how seeing the future works in almost any setting.
Anyway, yes, after getting betrayed by Durotan he didn't do much, but what was there really for him TO do? He's a religious leader, not a military strategist. Organizing a defense would have been the Vindicators' job.
>>46452067
What was left of the Draenei were hiding in Zangarmarsh. At some point after Tempest keep arrived, The Blood Elves took it over. Then the Draenei attacked and took control of what we know as the Exodar and got away. Though the Blood Elves screwed with its systems so it ended up crashing on Azeroth.
>>46452028
>He either can see the future and makes stupid mistakes.
Velen's problem is that he can see a lot of potential futures and isn't entirely certain on which one will actually happen. It's possible that he had visions of the Orcs killing his people but also had plenty of visions where they remained at peace, and chose to believe the latter was more likely.
Now, on the subject of space-faring races, what are the chances that the Apexis Arrakoa and the Sky Temple they were building are somewhere out there traveling among distant stars? Even the more primitive Arrakoa left behind can build solar-powered death lasers and robots, and their intelligence has been compared to gnomes.
Let's see what races we can fill the Great Dark Beyond with!
![1425986181737[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/ljwn9o8.png "1425986181737[1].png")
> tfw you made your first addition to wowpedia
> Thanks to you, generations to come will be able to have a better handle on the lore of warcraft and the quirks of WoW
it's a good feel
>>46452028
As I said before, the best thing he could do for his people was use his gift to try and find a way to survive. He failed, but thinking his efforts were meaningless just because he wasn't on the front lines poking orcs with his staff doesn't make any sense. Looking into the future is what he does, and has done for thousands of years. It's what his people expected of him.
>>46452128
Wait, wasn't Velen a powerful caster that surpress even Kil'jaeden and Achimonde before they became demons?
Why would he end up poking orcs with staff?
>>46452120
WC2 articles on wowpedia seem to be a bit lacking anon, or are you working exclusively on WoW stuff?
>>46452208I just started this weekend
What should be edited in your opinion?
>>46452191
Hmm, not that guy but I seem to remember that Velen did not want to hurt Kil'jaeden because he "loved him like a brother". Kil'jaeden, however, wants to hurt Velen because he "loved him like a brother", emphasis on loved
>>46452191
I don't know if he surpassed them, but he could probably match him. But that's Kil'jaeden and Archimonde BEFORE they joined the joined the legion. Since then they have gotten much more powerful.
>Why would he end up poking orcs with staff?
I just meant that him personally fighting wasn't going to change anything.
>>46452217
Hmm, addition of pictures would be nice? But, I do not know if adding more pictures of sprites is quite necessary. Other than that, it seems that most WCI and WCII articles are very short, though I'm sure they're short for a reason like there's not much to tell about it. I guess you should disregard my previous post and try to edit WCIII articles as I remember that some unit articles are lacking, like the Night Elf Runner (missing stats)
http://wow.gamepedia.com/Night_Elf_Runner
>>46452128
>He failed
How did he fail? In both versions of Draenor Draenei still live.
You mean because one of him sacrificed himself and appointed Yrel as the chief spacegoat? So far it seems to be working alright.
>>46452275
He failed in the sense that he never found an ideal solution. Doesn't necessarily mean the failure was his alone, it's more in the sense that a person would "fail" to hold back a tidal wave.
>>46452273Did I get the link wrong, I think I linked to another wiki. Bah, doesn't matter. Every wiki I've checked seems to have Night Elf Runner as an incomplete article
>>46452273
oh boy, what a shitty picture
>>46452275
Maybe failed wasn't the right word for it. The Draenei did survive, which is good, but they were on the brink. Also I don't remember if he's responsible for that either. I think it was his men that suggested he select a few people and go into hiding while the rest of them died.
>>46452291
>He failed in the sense that he never found an ideal solution.
How do you know that? Just because you think you would have done better doesn't mean that it would work the way you think, in short or long term. For all we know, ideal solution is physically impossible.
Then again, future sight in general is probably wonky business. Like what happens to Nozdormu long after he loses his job as time aspect.
>>46452332
>is
may be
>>46452296
Well I can't promise anything quickly anon, considering I'd have to reinstall Warcraft 3, but i'll keep an eye on those in the comingmonths
>>46452332
The near-extermination of the draenei is not an ideal solution no matter what way you cut it, anon. I'm not saying it's a personal fault of Velen, but he did fail in the semantic definition of the word. Just like I fail to grow a second penis every day.
Turns out people guessed right.
Thunderaan have being revived and will become the new Elemental lord of the air.
>>46452376
Do you consider every day without second penis a failure?
Using the term "failure" suggests there was a course of action that might have resulted in "success". Calling an inevitable outcome failure is silly.
That said, it's hard or impossible to tell how inevitable the outcome was as it depends on how good his precognition is and how deterministic the warcraft universe is.
I suppose you could say that the outcome is indeed not ideal. I guess the word I was looking for was "optimal", as that takes constraints that are outside of control into account.
Ideal outcome could be something along the lines of Draenei coming up with convenient way of counteracting demonic corruption and B the demons TFO while making peace and cooperation with other sapient species.
>>46452711
He was the leader of the draenei.
He had a duty to his people to protect and lead them
He failed in that duty when 80% of his people were used as pavement matter
>>46452725
>Be president Iceland
>Volcano blows up
>Kills off most of the citizens
>"Sorry citizens, I failed to keep you alive"
If you have unrealistic standards, you are condemned to live your life in perpetual disappointment.
Why are dwarves so perfect? God, I love everything about them.
>>46452763
too bad the orcs were not a force of nature despite what wow might have you believe.
Its more like.
>be ambassador to middle eastern country
>suddenly armed mob wants to break into the embassy and murder your employees.
>you don't evacuate or tell the security staff to defend yourself.
>80% of the staff is impaled on the embassy gates
>You just hide in the basement. while the soldiers with automatic weapons are told to hold fire.
>>46452273
>But, I do not know if adding more pictures of sprites is quite necessary.
An alternative to those shitty sprites js downloading a scan(if possible) of the WC2 Manual.
>>46452792
That's a really shitty comparison, as it implies that there was a course of action that could be taken to ensure better outcome and the leader failed to take it.
If you assume that the leader did what he did because he is incompetent, then he indeed failed.
If you assume that the leader did what he did because he can see the future and saw that outcome of alternate course of action, including the one you may consider to be "better", is in fact worse than what he took, then he did not fail, and the outcome he arrived at, gruesome as it may be, might have been the best outcome possible.
For instance he could have put up a final stand that would have saved more people initially, but eventually succumbed to the demons. Or he could have foreseen that fleeing Draenor to link up with Azerothians would result in better hopes for both nations to preserve themselves from demons, or that it would make Azerothians more inclined to come to their aid when they arrived to Draenor. Or it could be any number of other possible futures, some of them even hinging on specific individuals surviving or dying - hell, it could be that entire fate of the worlds hung upon one of Draenei murderhobos beginning their journey in Ammen Vale instead of becoming a cannon fodder on battlements of Shattrath.
>>46452792
What is wrong with you people who keep saying the Draenei didn't defend themselves. They DID. They didn't just stand there and wait to get stabbed. The Orcs just overpowered them.
>>46452900
except you have no proof he arrived at a better outcome.
The fact stands 80% of his people died, believing he would do something.
You are just making head canons to try and justify Velen's inaction through out the entire WoW.
>>46452906
the draenei's biggest gambit was letting their last remaining city get slaughtered. This was their big plan.
>>46452900
Killing the orcs talking with the legion is something they should have done.
>>46452938
Actually it's you who's making headcanons here when you claim that there is something he could have done and did not.
The truth of the matter is that we don't know.
If he did (or abstain from doing) something because he saw that future as best outcome, then he did not fail, no matter how your imperfect and limited understanding of his situation can tell you otherwise.
If he just sat on his ass because he's indecisive and his clairvoyance is shit then he's just bad leader, or at least not as good as he could have.
However the fluff I've read makes me lean more towards the former variant, even if I'm not convinced that his future sight is infallible. He did what he could to keep his faithful from succumbing to demonic temptations, he saved as many as he could from death at demon and orcish hands and he led them to a place of relative safety to make relatively powerful friends against his common foe, when at every turn his entire species could have been exterminated or subverted by demons.
I am struggling to understand the power levels between races in the alliance. I understand that Gnomes, Dwarves and Draenei are a lot less than humans and NElves, and that Gnomes/Dwarves follow the Humans while the Draenei have a bond with the NElves. But why are the humans the de-facto leaders of the alliance?
>>46452824
Could be possible, but I dunno about that. Maybe there would be some copyright problems that would prevent a complete scan but I doubt it. Another alternative would be gifs of shitty sprites. But it doesn't have to be either/or, we'll have to let the other anon handle this one..
>>46452784
Dwarves arebland
>>46452991
because that's how it's always been
>>46452938
>inaction
There it is again. Velen looking into the future is NOT inaction. It is his greatest power, and has ensured the survival of the Draenei for 25,000 years. His people expected him to look into the future and find a way, and that's what he attempted to do. It was their best hope. They were fighting a losing war. And before you say it, Velen is not a military leader, and is not responsible for overseeing their war efforts. That is left to the Exarchs and Vindicators.
>>46452954
>This was their big plan.
It was their last resort. And it worked, seeing as there are still Draenei around, whereas they would be extinct if it failed.
>Killing the orcs talking with the legion is something they should have done.
That is completely retarded. Just walk up to famous Orcs(assuming they even get that far), and kill them? For one, that is not the way Draenei do things. Second, that would insure that the Orcs retaliate and wage war. They wouldn't have the legion backing them, but an Orc horde is still extremely powerful, and a war with that isn't something the Draenei would want.
>>46452991
The Alliance started with humans. The other races came in later, and usually thanks to the efforts of the humans.
>>46452991
I think you're overestimating authority of Varian and human military over other factions.
I guess he has more weight than others on account of humans probably having biggest fighting force, but I believe all factions have their own military hierarchy. Doesn't every capital have their own military leadership with faction-race commanders?
Although maybe in more recent expansions the forces did begin to appear more unified...
I should get off my ass one of these days and go edit the Ethereal main page on WoWpedia to contain all of the information on them into one place rather than eight different pages and a bunch of quest text.
>>46452991
>But why are the humans the de-facto leaders of the alliance?
1. Warcraft is about "Orcs and Humans" mentality that some of the devs have.
2. They're humans. People IRL are humans. Humans are also the most-played race on the Alliance. Normies relate to humans the easiest. The Horde doesn't have this problem for obvious reasons.
3. Laziness and unwillingness to try new things. Blizzard doesn't find the Alliance as interesting or fun to write about the Horde, yet insists that the Alliance always be about the Light and being the good guy. They view the Alliance as the white knight faction and are unwilling to muddy them up and make them more interesting to write about/read about/play as.
While the Horde can be evil and good at the same time, exploring all sorts of various themes and storylines in the process, the Alliance MUST be shoe-horned into the "good guy" role with absolutely no chance for introspection. The Horde gets to answer the question "why do we fight?" The Alliance just doesn't even ask themselves that question.
4. Perceived fan outrage. They probably expect some sort of retarded fan backlash from Alliance players, if they were to "shake things up" and make the Alliance do more interesting/morally questionable things. The Alliance has had PLENTY of opportunities for internal strife. As much as the Horde.
Whereas Horde internal strife materializes into expansion-spanning themes, raids, overarching stories, etc. Alliance internal strife is resolved in a novel, scenario, or quest in the most uninteresting, bland, and boring way.
>>46453048
yes and the orcs would wage war divided. All they had to do was kill Ner'zhul and Gul'dan.
Instead they sat on their asses and let most of their people die.
>>46453093
Alliance is bad guy in the Alterac Valley battlegrounds though.
Exploring interfaction politics and giving Alliance more infighting, racism and internal tensions could be interesting, I suppose, but honestly I prefer to see it working smoothly. Especially considering that there are at least two or three cosmic forces hell bent on destroying all life, so while not unrealistic, making it rot from the inside out with politicians riding thin line of personal gain versus cohesion of the whole relying on the greater threat giving them leeway to get away with bullshit would leave a sour taste.
>>46453094
>the orcs would wage war divided
No, they wouldn't. The whole reason they unified in the first place was to fight the Draenei. Even if they were to stay divided, so what? They would all still attack the Draenei, just not united under the banner of the Horde. That might actually make it even more dangerous, as the Draenei would have to struggle to keep tabs on the movements and such of every different clan.
Also, even if this all happened, the legion would just get into position for a sneak attack. The whole reason Kil'jaeden tried to use the Orcs to kill the Draenei was so Velen didn't catch wind of legion activity and find a way to run away again. Whether war happens due to legion influence, or the Draenei's preemptive strike, the result is the same. Draenei and Orcs wage war, and one way or another, the Draenei die.
>>46453151
no, they could be picked off, and reasoned with if their new demon empowered leadership was taken out. A unified force is always more dangerous than a divided one.
The draenei wouldn't die if there was no coordinated military offensive like the horde took. They let the problem stew and fester and nearly got eradicated. If that was the best they could do, they deserve to be genocided.
>>46453173
>they could be picked off, and reasoned with if their new demon empowered leadership was taken out.
Firstly, Ner'zhul is a revered by the Orcs. Gul'Dan, as his apprentice, also has some pull. Secondly, how would the Draenei even prove that the Orcs were being manipulated? Keep in mind that the most the two races do in terms of interaction is occasionally trade, and so there is no semblance of trust at all. Also, from the Orcs perspective, the Draenei would have just raided one of their settlements and killed on of the greatest Orcs in the world. Do you HONESTLY believe they listen to anything the Draenei had to say?
>>46453204
so the alternate option was just dying outright like they did, not striking first when velen saw that war was unavoidable.
>>46453173
Yeah, it would've been nice to destroy their leadership if it was in their power.
I mean, maybe Ukrainians wish that they could just remove Russian leadership today. Doesn't mean they can do it.
>they deserve to be genocided
[tips fedora]
>>46453208
Velen tried to be the good guy that he is, and try to find peaceful solutions. It wasn't until the Orcs stopped his pilgrimage to Oshu"Gun that he deemed war unavoidable. If Velen had known that the legion was involved, then he might have done things differently. But Kil'jaeden took great care to be subtle, and as such he never found out until it was too late.
>>46453276
Guess his foresight was not as good as it's said to be.
>>46453214
Well if their biggest plan was hiding in swamps while the orcs that they had saved betrayed their secrets and committed genocide while their future seeing prophet sat on his ass, they deserved to die.
His leader short story has him looking into the future and Mr Gary Stu Jr reminds him that he should try and protect people instead of watching the end of time clash with the army of light.
>>46453286
It's entirely up to interpretation. His foresight has kept the Draenei alive for 25,000, so it obviously works. However, it's entirely possible that he can only see the future in broad strokes. He may have seen that the Draenei and Orcs go to war, but cannot see what causes it to happen. There's also the fact that there is not just one future. There are many futures that he can see.
>>46453298
>Well if their biggest plan was hiding in swamps while the orcs that they had saved betrayed their secrets and committed genocide while their future seeing prophet sat on his ass, they deserved to die.
At this point you people must either be trolling, or not even bothering to read the thread.
>>46453326
Your point is that velen saved the draenei for 25k years
They did that by flying around in their dimensional ship and running away when the legion came too close. That was their secret to survival. When they ended up on draenor, they crashed their ship and settled into a new home. They named the world after themselves and velen kept looking into the future and hid with the survivors instead of warning maraad or akama or anyone that the Orcs were worth watching.
>>46453358
>They did that by flying around in their dimensional ship and running away when the legion came too close. That was their secret to survival.
And that only worked because Velen foresaw their arrival each time.
>velen kept looking into the future and hid with the survivors instead of warning maraad or akama or anyone that the Orcs were worth watching.
You have a point, but we also don't know when Velen started to see visions of the war. We also don't know how many futures he saw involved the war, and how many involved peace. If he had indeed seen visions of the war far before it happened, and didn't tell anyone, then you would be right. But we just don't know that.
>>46453412
well we do know that velen keeps to himself during the shattering when azeroth was this close to being destroyed.
>>46453431
I can't comment on that in particular unfortunately. Was there any reason given? Any inner thoughts from Velen?
>>46453459
he just sees the future and meditates
>>46453459
Blizzard forgetting he exists.
>>46453459
Maybe he saw the same future as Nozdormu and concluded that Deathwing is less bad ending that the alternative.
Maybe the entire precognition is flawed, or maybe there's something powerful down the line that can twist it to manipulate clairvoyant beings for its own ends.
Or maybe the universe is just so fucked no matter what.
>>46449031
She's a hypocrite and killed her own father, move along people nothing to see here.
>>46453521
Her father was a war criminal that resisted arrest.
He was mostly right about the orcs, but still caused his own undoing.
>>46453552
He was the one arresting.
For the longest time I've been very surprised to see how much people seem to think Blizzard favors the Horde.
Shit like the bombing of Theramore, and Sylvanas's psychosis, and Cairne dying, it all feels like they're actively trying to make people hate the Horde. Especially the bombing of Theramore, that was such a blatant middle finger to the Horde fanbase. "You like this symbol of the possibility of peace? FUCK YOU it's gone and it's your fault! Hate the Horde already! They're bad guys"
>>46453567
Then why is Sylvanas still alive and Forsaken haven't lost a single battle, conquering half of the human kingdoms by Legion? Psychosis, more like didnuff.
>>46453567
>Especially the bombing of Theramore,
That was one all the horde babies were cheering for at the time.
>>46453588
What?
They were cheering to see Jaina's character destroyed? They were cheering for an unforgivable war crime? They were cheering for Jaina's father being proven right?
Why?
>>46453562
The orcs were making a citizen's (counter)arrest
Biggest issue I see with WoW as a table top is picking and planning which point in time to go with. I guess you'd need separate stat/info blocks for each place/major character for each time period. The Thrall you could encounter at say Vannilla time wouldn't be the same Thrall in Cataclysm time or Legion.
Still, I do wish Blizzard would do an RPG line again some time. I never got a chance to get a hold of the old books.
>>46453603
Because they're edgy little kids who think "WOW GARROSH SUCH BADASS!"
>>46453562
From his perspective, maybe. Doesn't change the fact that he was the war criminal and had execution or at least exile coming.
>>46453618
Wow Garrosh is such a badass! He took the cowards option and bombed them from a safe distance instead of taking the fight to them directly with axe and sword!
So badass!
>>46453632
Exactly.
>>46453627
Nothing wrong with war criming war criminals.
>>46453567
You're assuming Horde fans want peace and cooperation. I'm sure some do, perhaps including you. But keep in mind there are people who believe that might makes right, and peace and complacency is for the weak.
Plus, you don't need to hate entire horde for actions ordered by its warlord.
>>46453632
Tactically this is always superior option.
Strategically it might have been retarded, but if he did absolutely want the city gone, bombing it was better choice than getting his men needlessly killed in a suicide assault.
Is there any information about the Dragon Isles?
All I remember is seeing the awesome concept art in the credits
>>46453673
This is why I hate Garrosh
It's as if they combined Hitler and Rommel into a single person and didn't catch on to how that didn't work
I'm thinking about a caimpaign centered around the blackrock. What races could the players be from?
For the dark horde we have orcs, trolls, ogres, goblins(?) and maybe some draconids
The dark irons have DI Dorfs (duh) and a few goblins, leper gnomes and flamewalkers as well as some lonely orcs, trolls, worgen and nerubians. I guess anyone could be with the dark irons, as long as they're shady enough.
>>46453729
>around the blackrock
when? On which side would the players be?
>>46453567
because they wanted to show that the horde was here, they were strong and were not afraid of any pansy alliance. Destroying Theramore was supposed to the peak of garry's popularity, and it was well reflected in the fanbase.
The alliance was beaten till it was blue and told that it was a story device, because war is not supposed to be fair. When it came for the horde to take a beating they sanitized it to the extent that they specifically said that having the skyfire bombing Orgrimmar would be unfair to the horde player. And the pre expansion event was Theramore becoming a crater.
They destroyed a relic of old WoW and the alliance never got a thing for it in game. The book just proved that Blizzard would coddle the horde player base no matter what.
Even now, the horde players threw a hissy fit because tyrande was being mean to them and kosak had it changed. At the same time, they changed the DK rescue Koltira quest so that forsaken players wouldn't be butthurt.
Meanwhile Althea Ebonlocke and Sarah Ladimore are evil cultists.
This is what Warcraft has come down to.
>>46453736
I still don't have a particular time in mind, but the players said they wanted to see the other side of the coin.
>>46453755
#neverforget
>>46453755
No one is happy except for idiots
Gotcha.
>>46453765
Then maybe you could add Twilights Hammer cultists into the mix too
you could also do the original conquest of Blackrock Spire by the Horde
>>46453755
>Althea Ebonlocke and Sarah Ladimore are evil cultists.
;_;
>>46453765
I like the idea that the battle for Blackrock between the orcs and dark iron dwarves was one of if not the biggest battles of the first and second wars. And no one of any plot importance knows.
>>46453755
Don't forget the new Cathedral of Light archpriest.
>>46453755
As a forsaken player, I have been consistently butthurt since Cataclysm.
There has not been a moment in warcraft since then that the butthurt has ceased for
>>46453780
Dayum that is one beautiful picture, but I don't know if Nordrassil has the right size
>>46453837
what do you have to be angry about, forsanon? You've succesfully conquered Gilneas, Lordaeron, Dalaran, Stromgarde and soon Alterac :^)
>>46453796
It's kind of weird how the Twilights Hammer and Ragnaros went from bitter enemies of the black dragonflight to loyal servants of Deathwing just like that.
>>46453870
Maybe he wants to be a decent forsaken person rather than member of an undead scourge engulfing bigger and bigger portion of landscape under command of spiteful dead elf and her psychopathic apothecary minions
>>46453870
I am angry that our leader has started to commit the greatest crime a forsaken can commit, subjecting more souls to the torment of undeath, and has recieved no comeuppance. I am angry that Sylvanas learned absolutely no humility after the attack on undercity. I am angry at how shoehorned forsaken are into the role of the "evil" faction. I am angry to see forsaken on the offense when they're so much more interesting on the defense. I am angry that there has been so much evil-wank for the forsaken that the scarlet crusade now looks justified when the entire purpose of the scarlet crusade is to throw a wrench into the concepts of good and evil within the setting
I'm angry about a lot of things
>>46453887
I'm a death knight player and I'm happy to be part of a new undead scourge to be honest
>>46453126
How are alliance the bad guys in Alterac? The dwarves lived their long before the fucking Orcs came and set up camp. The Alliance is simply defending themselves from the orcs.
>>46453796
>>46453821
I like the idea of the battle between horde and dwarfs.
Another thing that just slipped into my mind was the image of some adventurers sitting in the Grim Guzzler. Goblin mercenaries, Dark iron rogues or mages, maybe even a druid of the flame or a crestfallen priest/paladin, all of them waiting to make some money by doing the dirty work of a corrupt stormwind noble or getting hired by the Defias.
![stormheim-horde-quests-00281[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/UgSQh4B.jpg "stormheim-horde-quests-00281[1].jpg")
>>46453887
Or maybe he's pissed off.
>>46453919
you sound like a decent person anon
your anger is righteous
>>46453924
The dwarven expedition in Alterac came after the Frostwolves actually
>>46453927
>Another thing that just slipped into my mind was the image of some adventurers sitting in the Grim Guzzler
that's actually a good idea too man
your players are gonna be happy, I know I would be
>>46453572
Sylvanus is going to get her teeth kicked in by the Ebon Blade in Legion
>>46453949
nah, the forsaken players raised a stink and daddy kosak changed the mission
>>46453862
Thats Teldrassil I think, it's showing the town of Darkshore
>>46453927
Or they could participate on one of the brewfest raids. As someone from north germany there a not many things that would make me happier than seeing how someone crashes the oktoberfest
>>46453980
Fucking hell forsaken truly are a blight
Actual progress in the story and Death Knights getting to do some cool stuff was one of the few things that made me consider trying out Legion.
>>46453981
Damn, I meant teldrassil. Still, it looks too small to contain a starting zone.
>>46454011
Gotta remember that's waaaaaaay off in the distance, but actually looking at it a severalf things seem to be smaller than they should be
>>46453755
>Sarah Ladimore
Aw man, I'd forgotten about her. She's turning evil too? Fucking hell, Blizzard.
MAGNI IS NEUTRAL NOW
ITS OGRE
The last surviving Menethil is in legion but does absolutely nothing.
>>46454098
Why? did communing with the earth change him into one of those holier than thou types that see war as petty or some shit?
>>46454098
OH COME THE FUCK ON.
>>46449908
Isn't it four times, then? The Alliance are now sheltering the few High Elves that remain after the Scourge attacked Silvermoon.
>>46454127
>>46454146
They datamined his strings from the ashbringer questline.
>>46454120
I want her to be the next queen of the forsaken
A living queen of an undead nation
>>46454030that's what she seid
Call me a fag and fuck my asshole, but I somehow like the idea of half elf barbarians. How viable is the idea of a half elf who was raised by his elven mother in quel'thalas/kalimdor until he had enogh of the other elves bullying him and ran into the forest?
>>46454161
Dalaran neutral, Calia neutral, Magni neutral.
I know they hate the Alliance but they don't have to be so fucking obvious.
>>46454185
you forgot
>tyrande neutral
>her bitchiness at the horde players removed.
>>46454193
How is that a bad thing?
Tyrande was always shit
>>46454185
Anduin neutral carpet-king.
>>46453572
Sylvanas dindu nuthin, she a good girl, she the best hoodrat there is, she sucks off all the homies in the hood
>>46454202
>badass warrior queen
>got shit done
>Varian 'hothead' wrynn teaches her not to run into a forest while screaming
If his son was not a doormat, I would cheer for him dying.
>>46454219
>mfw
>>46453919
Man, I feel ya. I used to roleplay as a forsaken mage whose backstory was that he was part of the Kirin Tor in life and whose goal in undeath was to try to rejoin them. I even went out of my way to avoid doing quests where you kill members of the Alliance (which became fucking impossible when questing became linear railroading in Cataclysm onwards).
>>46454165
Calia is just a defeatist why would you want anything to do with her
Will there ever be any interaction between Arathor and Auntie Sylvanas?
>>46454239
Go level up in Eversong Woods/the Ghostlands for early levels, then take the plunge and leap directly from there into northern stranglethorn, go through the cape of stranglethorn into the western plaguelands (avoid the alliance killing quests there, there is a few, but you don't need them to level up high enough), then to the eastern plaguelands, eastern plaguelands to felwood, felwood to winterspring, winterspring to the blasted lands, and then you're past the Cata stuff and into BC
>>46454258
Because by this point? The best leader for the forsaken is "anyone but Sylvanas"
>>46454098
>>46454120
>Titans are dead
>Turalyon and Alleria are dead
>Magni nuetral
>They bring back Calia Menethil a person with an actual legitimate claim on Lordaeron but do nothing with the character
>Sylvanus no longer gets her comeuppance
What other changes were made recently?
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1903925-Genn-Greymane-The-new-Garrosh
Check the banned guy, this is the average forsaken fag.
>>46454299
Sure, getting to 80 isn't that bad, even 85 can be done, but how are you supposed to even get into Pandaria without killing Alliance troops?
>>46454363
run dungeons.
>>46453755
>Meanwhile Althea Ebonlocke and Sarah Ladimore are evil cultists.
I like how NOBODY has created any shit over this because everyone in the Alpha are shit-eating Horde cocksuckers.
I am so mad over this and Ysera becoming EEEEEEBIL and I can't comment on it to the devs because lol u r European u can't post on teh forumzzzz.
Hey Anon that made the ethereal stats for the RPG. I take it they are not finished? Since the racial levels are lacking some info. Any plans to finish it?
>>46453755
Poor Morgan. He'd be rolling in his grave if there was enough of him left.
I hope they raid UD for koltiras and lose.
>>46454377
I like questing, though. It's just annoying when you have to break character because the majority of content in a zone is tied to a bottleneck quest at the beginning.
>>46454677
I think it would make sense for Sylvanas to defeat them and reraise them as her servants, sending them back to the ebon blade along with koltiras as double agents
>>46454759
>sylvanas capable of raising Deathknights
Now Kosak its time to stop
>>46454353
well that was an infuriating read
>>46453572
Well, if they want to present Sylvanas as a villain, she needs to be a credible threat. The bad guy is pretty much always stronger than the good guys, because there isn't much drama if the villain can be effortlessly defeated.
>>46453929
The fuck happened to Nathanos? Last time I checked, he had his face rotted off and shit. Even if they wanted to give him an unique model instead of the standard Forsaken one, they could at least make him look undead, instead of a pale human with glowy eyes.
>>46454774
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1953773-Genn-Greymane-Massive-amp-Potential-Spoilers-Speculation/
read this and realize that euthanasia should be legal.
>>46453567
the Alliance is always right, but the Horde always wins, that way everyone loses but Kosak and Metzen
>>46455037
he's a dark ranger
it's the fate of Forsaken players - all of their leaders are actually not the same race as them
>>46455050
That's.... actually pretty good way to put it
>>46454315
>Turalyon and Alleria are dead
PROBABLY dead.
>>46455140
no one actually dies in Warcraft
shit man Illidan is back after dieing twice
>>46455140
better dead than neutral
>>46454759
>Sylvanas about to mindfuck the 3 audacious ebon blade knights that are rescuing private Koltiras
>When she gets in all she sees is sexy naked arthas in the frost DK mind
>Twilight on the blood DK mind
>Very graphic depictions of diseases and what they do on the body of cute elven maidens on the unholy DK
>NOPEs out of there.
This would be great desu.
other than Afrasiabi's demon autism, the only bad bit of lore introduced by WoD was retconning Draenor to have not always been a spooky mushroom hell
prove me wrong
>>46455801
the lore of WoD was good, people are just butthurt about the cut content
they cut like several whole zones and major questlines
>>46455839
>>46455801
Lore wasn't the problem in WoD other than the time travel and demon bullshit. The unkept promises, the cut content, and doing nothing but add twitter integration as a "major" content patch
>>46455850
damn, I hope the next Warcraft chronicles book will be able to fix the lore of Draenor
>>46455878
I have mixed feelings about this statement.
Of course, a fixed lore would be the shit. But it would burn like the heat of a thousand stars because we would know what was taken from us.
>>46448841
I like to imagine Varian is asking Thrall if he thinks those glasses will actually work as a disguise and Thrall just responding "Hell yeah motherfucker"
>>46454098
>>46454127
>>46454161
Neutral to PALADINS, meaning Sunwalkers and post-Sunwell Blood Knights.
>>46454315
>Turalyon and Alleria are dead
Or captive.
>Sylvanus no longer gets her comeuppance
I still need proof of that
>>46456003
I don't really care. These days I spend more times crawling the wiki than actually playing WoW so I wouldn't mind learning about the lore of Farhalon from a book
I mean, we'll never get it in-game anyway
Is there ANYTHING that's happened with the Ebon Blade after bromance duo took a trip to Sylvannas' orgy chambers?
>>46456141
You mean removed trip right, can't have anything bad happen to sylvy :)
>>46456171
...What happened to Koltira, then? Didn't she snatch his ass up?
>>46456141
The biggest thing coming in Legion is that the Ebon Blade throw in with Bolvar the Lich King, who wants to assist in the war against the Burning Legion and promises not to use mind control and otherwise keep their free will. As part of their efforts, the Ebon Blade are creating a new Four Horsemen.
>>46456182
Correct. Koltira was kidnapped at the end of the Cataclysm Western Plaguelands and sent off to Sylvanas's gulag for fraternizing with the Alliance.
>>46455850
that map makes it look like the Iron Docks were supposed to be a lot closer to Tanaan. I wonder why they changed that
>>46456193
WAIT, WHAT?
The Ebon Blade are recruiting again?
I thought they'd planned to run themselves to destruction to 'atone'.
>>46454098
It doesn't really matter. The Council rules over Ironforge now, which is better than a single Bronzebeard king, even if it was first instated to just wait until Moira's son was of age.
Regardless, the emphasis in Legion is no longer on the Horde and Alliance except the beginning and then Stormheim. All 'bout them class fantasies now, bruv.
>>46456214orc fatigue
>>46456225
better to atone by wrecking demons left and right
>>46454315
http://legion.wowhead.com/quest=42708/rescue-koltira
This seems to still be in game and imply they're taking Koltira with or without her help.
>>46456193
>Bolvar: "Yo need help, controlling undead is acually hard, freind agains?"
>Mograine: "Promise NOT to mindrape us?"
>Bolvar: "Promise to be loyal?"
And then they policed.
>>46456225
Something like that. One of the most infamous quests that have been uncovered is the Knights of the Ebon Bladeraiding the Knights of the Silver Hand (paladin order hall) in order to steal the recently-interred body of.Tirion Fordring
>>46456225
No, no.
They're helping bolvar since he's a shit-tier LK.
And what better way to atone than to kill ALL THE FUCKING DEMONS.
Also new horseman are only if they say yes.
>>46456264
AHHHHHH. WHAT THE FUCK?!
>>46456212
So what's going on with that storyline? Is it just retconned?
>>46456283Tirion
Nazgrim
Trollbane
????
are the new four horseman
>>46456283
Koltira still gets freed but nothing bad happens to Sylvanus or undercity because forsaken players whining
>>46456303
Rumors are a troll.
Also; whitemane is just a follower.
>>46456303
>????Sally Whitemane
>>46456303
You forgotWhitemane.
>>46456327
If they want to redeem Sylvanus they should just have the Ebon Blade steal the Crown of Will from the Undercity vaults and slap it on her.
Banish some Val'kyr mind control and absolve her of her role in cata.
Boom, done.
>>46456303
TIP OF THE SCOURGE SPEAR, NO GREATER HONOR
