Reading through some of the work done on WRFP 3rd edition, I'm shocked at how bad the modules are, not as adventures, some are just fine, but how difficult they are as a GM to use: pages and pages of explanation of things that have very little bearing on anything, some of which could have been presented in a couple sentences. Is this due to page count requirements for payment?
>>46043778
>Is this due to page count requirements for payment?
Well, duh, yeah. Writers get paid by the word. Layout designers by the spread. Artists by the illustration. And speaking of efficiency, it's more efficient/cheaper to print one giant book than 4 small ones, which is why so many RPG companies publish these giant 300-400-page monstrosities.
This is still a business that needs to make a profit, after all, not some mathematical model that should be optimized for fastest results.
>>46043909
But if you are putting out a product that is efficient and works well for the user (a GM using it), and you need less art, far, far far less layout, you are paying less to build your saleable product. If the product sells, which in WFRP3's case, it didn't. The early B/X modules were not like this, modern OSR stuff is not like this, most Numenera stuff is not like this (adventures that is). What I'm thinking is that there must have been some sort of strange audience for these types of 'read a short story' modules instead of 'this is a tool to run a game'
>>46044241
>What I'm thinking is that there must have been some sort of strange audience for these types of 'read a short story' modules instead of 'this is a tool to run a game'
There definitely is. They may even make up the greater part of RPG sales. I mean I know I enjoy flicking through books for games I've yet to get around to playing.
And I can think of one high profile example of designers going for usability rather than readability in their presentation - the shift from 3rd to 4th edition Dungeons and Dragons. From the perspective of actually trying to run the game, 4e monster and power statblocks were a godsend. From the perspective of someone idly flicking through a rulebooke they made everything look samey and unappealing. It was at least a contributing factor to the backlash the game received, so now it's gone forever.
>>46043778
because real writers write real books instead of neckbeard trash
>>46045022
Well, it's 13th Age now and the stat blocks are smaller but still way up in there.
>>46045058
Yes, but there are plenty of hack 'real' writers that are far worse than the WFRP3 people. Regardless, someone writing a tool for play should write just that and focus on that and not...all this godamn puffery.
>>46043909
sorry bud, but ISNT the way it works.
trust me I wrote one of them
>>46046292
Do tell. Do they give you a commission with some parameters?
>design an adventure for third level characters
>wordcount is x
>must include a magic sword and a genderfluid lizard person
Something to note about early DnD and most indie games is that they were written on spec, so the developer (possibly doing design, copy, layout, art, distribution, marketing etc on his own) had some urgent incentives to keep things as concise as possible, without compromising the product.
>>46043778
Put it this way: If you just have rules without flavor and fluff, people won't pay as much for it.
>>46043778
...such as?
I'm actually not sure what you're talking about, especially as it relates to WHFRPG3E. The modules with 'irrelevant' details are basically giving you setting information, and it's pretty obvious they either intended to have the module be the basis of a campagin or be a boxed set for a city (something that used to be very common) that ended up being converted into just an adventure module. The Skaven-themed stands out especially as this.
Writers get paid for the word.
>>46046651
>>46047210
Fluff was on of the best things about Warhammer Fantasy, and 3e had the arduous task of putting 30 years of lore into a coherent and presentable form. They did this mostly by parceling it out in each expansion and adventure (most adventures including a mini-expansion).
This kind of pushed you into buying everything that came out if you were a GM or completionist, but if you did have it all it gave an excellent picture of the world, well integrated with it's mechanics.
I love my WHFRP3e so much, even if no one else does! *sniffle*
>>46046651
I'm not saying NO fluff, I'm saying total inefficiency as a tool for a GM to use to play the game. Looking at something like Isle of the Unknown is the extreme on the other end (or the 4E Against The Giants remake). Witch's Song is a good example. Chapter 1 is filled with paragraph after paragraph of nonesense words that have no practical use as gaming triggers-- you have to read 3-4 sentences into a paragraph about a single person to glean what they are all about. Instead of: "Fat, slovenly, owns the Trollfinger Inn, hates the Karstenburg family for accrued slights."
>>46050745
I've always wished that they had done EDGE OF EMPIRE first and that ended up like the experimental trash WFRP 3E is and WFRP came after, but alas, 3E is unplayable and I hope FF never uses the license again. This may be the one good thing about Age of Sigmar that it destroys any chance of FF doing another version of WFRP.
>>46051152
WHFRP3e has some issues, like any game, but "unplayable" it isn't. I've had very little opportunity to play but have enjoyed it quite a bit when I did.
I'd still probably put this in my top few RPGs I've played.
>>46046571
You are given an outline, yes, but it's not nearly that specific. They'll give you what sorts of tropes the adventure should hit, and then offer some suggestions that tie in whatever region or macguffin they're pushing in the book. Then you look at how many words you're contracted for and write as much as possible, even if half of it is just purple prose. Why? Because it's the developer's job to trim that down to exactly they want, your job is to give them the wordcount they asked for and get paid (eventually).
>>46051127
Except Warhammer Fantasy adventures are generally different from D&D ones. All three acts of D&D adventures tend to be "kill stuff until you find the clue to the next step". In Warhammer Fantasy Act 1 is often "wander around location cluelessly", Act 2 is "discover something horrible is happening and what is behind it" and then Act 3 leading to "engage the horribleness head on and hope you win".
You need a lot more fluff and information like "who knows what" and "why are these things happening" and so on.
