Was I just an asshole GM?
First-time GM here, running a setting where spellcasters learn magic abilities by collecting them from powerful places in the world. Magic is raw and chaotic, so it's not always clear what it does at a glance.
So the party's spellcaster spent some time investigating rumours about power places, and came up with a few leads, including one "spell" that could supposedly grant immortality. However, the people who tipped him off about that place also mentioned that no-one who ever went there came back. He assumed that the location was dangerous, and brought the party with him to have a look.
When they got there, however, they found the place to be a perfectly ordinary slab of stone in the middle of an open area with no visible threats. A faded inscription on the slab said something to the effect of "Seeker of power, be aware that this place will not do what you believe it will."
He hesitated, but went through with absorbing the power. Then he tried casting the spell, and it instantly shunted him over to a dimension overlapping their home dimension. He could see the home sphere from where he was, but not interact with it or reveal himself to anyone. Basically, he had become a ghost with no need for food, water or sleep. He was immortal, but not in the way you might expect, and seemingly stuck in that dimension.
That's when the player behind that character turned bitter on me, and accused me of fucking him over and running a campaign with too many arbitrary pitfalls. I finally cracked and told him that he'd be able to find several ways of getting out of his predicament, but he was in a sour mood for the rest of the evening.
Was this bad GMing? Should I have communicated more clearly that he was walking into a sort of trap? I'll admit that I do try to keep the players constantly challenged and on their toes, so I might be failing at seeing the campaign from their perspective.
Saying the power didn't do what he thought it would is a pretty clear warning. The guy was powergaming, he wanted immortality so bad he ignored the warning that the magic wasn't going to do what he thought, and then got mad when the magic didn't do what he thought.
In short, he needs to learn how to understand words and not powergame so hard.
>>45845165
No, you did perfectly fine, the player was just the one who ignored the world's magic lore warning, the slab warning, and the people who gave him the rumors warning
>>45845165
Yes and no. This kind of half on him for going through with it anyway. I mean, there was a literal 'do not fuck with this hella fucky magic shit' message written right on the rock itself. It's not like no one told him.
One thing I would've done is affirmed one last time OOC that they wanted to go through with it.
The biggest mistake I see here is that you gave a plot hook with a thread that apparently never went anywhere. It just existed to lead them to a pitfall, which is something you should definitely avoid as a newer GM.
>>45845165
No, you kind of set it up pretty well. You did the equivalent of an in-game "are you sure you want to do that?"
I also don't find fault with your "cracking" and saying he can find a way back from this. I mean, it could show some serious character growth if he has to really struggle to give up immortality in order once again enter the world. It's a good setup for a new side-quest, as well.
>>45845165
No, you weren't an asshole. Several times he was warned full out what would happen and chose to ignore it in favor of the pursuit of power.
He made a classic wizard mistake, and he's just uppity about it - the way a real wizard would be.
>>45845392
Same-Anon. Ignore that last paragraph. I'm tired and skipped an entire paragraph in the OP like an idiot.
You played this about as well as you could've. Mage player just walked face-first into an obvious trap.
>tell child not to stick hand in rat trap
>locks eyes with me
>fucker sticks his hand in the trap
>screaming commences
>tell him to stop squirming so I can remove it
>screams no and thrashes on floor
Would you feel sorry or annoyed at the child?
>>45845502
Addendum: if the wizard really can escape from his ghostwalk, then he's actually found a Hell of a thing that any real wizard would cream themselves over.
Imagine being able to just Nope the fuck away for 100 years; or stick an otherwise dying person in stasis until you can find a cure; or wait out time with some kind of sword until the Legendary Hero appears, or whatever.
Like most cursed items or locations, this one is only bad until you look at it from a certain point of view. Then it becomes awesome.
>>45845392
Well, the spell still works. After he gets back to his home plane, he could cast it again to escape from dire peril. I'd like to believe that isn't entirely a pitfall.
>>45845666
Yeah, I skipped over an important part in the OP on accident.
If he becomes able to enter and leave at will it could wind up being a huge power spike, a bit like the Ethereal ability from Warcraft but immunity to all damage instead of just physical damage.
>>45845798
Well, make leaving it a time-consuming process.
>>45845798
He'll be able to enter at will, but not leave. Leaving will involve a rather complicated procedure, an entire little side-quest which he'll have to repeat if he wants to keep going there.
>>45845165
YOu warned him, gave an obvious sense of danger and an eerie predicament, it should have been obvious.
>give repeated in-game warnings not to do something
>players ignore them and do it anyway
>get screwed and blame you for it
or
>repeatedly tell players actions might have dire consequences
>don't spoil it! you might as well just play the game for us
Welcome to a recurring problem that will haunt you forever. Players will never be able to take a hint. Evidently, you are not allowed to introduce something they may use to get themselves in trouble
>>45845165
>no-one who ever went there came back
This is standard adventuring fare. As fantasy heroes, the players are supposed to be doing things no-one else can do. I'd have given it an 80% chance that the reason was a big monster or a dungeon.
>"Seeker of power, be aware that this place will not do what you believe it will."
More of a world-building thing, but why would someone leave such a cryptic and unconvincing warning? If I was writing a warning, it would go more along the lines of "Do not draw magic from this place. It will not grant you immortality, but will instead trap you in another world." The way you worded it, it sounds more like a deal with the devil (maybe making him undead or a golem?) than immediately fucking him over forever.
>stuck in that dimension
I think you should at least let him do a quest to return to the living world, although doing so means he forfeits immortality. Maybe along the way he'll learn a spell in the ethereal world.
>>45848004
He said that he can come back.
>>45848310
Only after the player raged at him
>>45848791
Any reasonable player would know that the GM wont just go "Okay now your dude is trapped forever. Pack your things, you are not welcome to the game group anymore.", they know there is some way to get out from something that isnt outright death. Fuck you, OP did the best he could.
>>45848827
>Fuck you, OP did the best he could
Whatever you say, OP
>>45849236
I thought it was only /v/ who resorts to yelling samefags when they get called out.
>>45849270
I usually stop trying when people start flinging insults. Most of the time I just stop posting, but sometimes I shitpost in return.
>>45845528
NOPE
Great example
Hold on now though. While you didn't really do anything wrong with how you ran it and we're quite reasonable I think we should explore the concept some more. What were the mage's options, really?
>Cast the spell despite the danger and advance the plot. Keep in mind that in many games you want to go towards where the danger is. Fantasy GM, especially those who run DND, constantly struggle with letting players know what's actually a threat that they're meant to try and take on. "Nobody has ever returned" sounds like a plot hook to me.
>ignore the spell and drop the plot line and nothing happens.
It sounds to me he fell into a pitfall trying to help you out by not ignoring your hooks op. This may have been why he was salty.
>There's a big dangerous lich raising an army!
>fuck, my character leaves the country
>what?
>liches are dangerous!
>there goes my campaign
Or
>there's a big dangerous Loch raising an army!
>my character prepares to save the day!
>what are you crazy? Your chapter dies. I warned you he was big and dangerous.
>>45849470
agreed
>>45845165
You're retarded m8, why would you even present that opportunity...
>>45849236
OP here, that wasn't me. For the record, I didn't create the way out when he raged, I gave him the meta knowledge that there were multiple ways out so he'd calm down about his situation and get on with playing.
>>45849470
>>45850015
This was something he was doing in his downtime, after the party got back from a major plot-related event and settled down in a new region. He went "I want to spend time looking for information about nearby places of power" and I had already decided as part of campaign setuo that there would be an easily accessible but double-edged spell there.
>>45845165
Honestly as >>45848004 pointed out, in game warnings usually don't mean a lot. I would have gone thorugh with it too, but it kinda fucks up the game don't you think? the dude is now a ghost, what happens with the rest of the group?
how can he have an arc trying to revert to his form if he can't even talk to the rest of the group?
>>45850395
Solo games, and even if in game warnings don't work you shouldn't get salty as fuck when you ignore them.
>>45845165
Could he have investigated and somehow manage to disarm the trap? Or at least prepare for it?
If not it was kinda douchey of you.
>>45850395
My intention was that "nobody's ever come back" was supposed to start ringing alarm bells when the place was perfectly peaceful and the spell right there in the open. I wanted to hint at the fact that something was wrong with the spell itself. Obviously I miscalculated.
>>45850395
I've never believed the idea that in game warnings shouldn't mean anything.
Does this mean I need to tell players totally out of character when things are bad for them?
I understand that players should defy warnings, but that doesn't mean they get to randomly ignore every warning thrown at them just because they're players.
>>45850476
The "trap" couldn't be disarmed, as it hinges on the spell working as intended. He could, however, have found out the truth about it by consulting the local historical archives.
>>45845165
It literally said it was a trap, he was being a dumbass and if anything you were too nice.
>>45845392
this is true, there ought to be some kind of reward for the time spent if they avoid being fucked by the trap power.
>>45850494
It's an age-old problem.
In games where players are expected to overcome great danger, it's extremely difficult for players to tell when they should heed such a warning, or when it's simply hyping up the danger that they're supposed to overcome. It's harder when GMs restrict themselves to in-character signals, as a player can never be sure whether it's just the NPC or sign talking, or whether they should take it as word-of-god.
>>45850505
But how does a player judge what is a tricky challenge versus a nigh-guaranteed TPK?
You need to provide some clue as to what's a plot hook to investigate now versus something to tackle later when the PCs are more powerful. It might be enough to give the players an opportunity to by sly and sneaky and reconnoiter. If they just charge in, the players shouldn't be surprised to have their characters be utterly surprised.
>>45850462
I agree you shouldn't get salty, but OP obviously made a mistake there, as solo games might not be in the party or the player's best interest.
>>45850494
Yeah, this is something that would totally work with some people, that's why you need to know your group well, it's not that you did wrong, but you didn't do right to the eye of the player you have.
>>45850505
I didn't mean it like that, as a dm I plan out various warnings to my players, but sometimes you can never tell what gets ignored or not, sometimes I want them to ignore things and they don't.
>>45850668
Sure, but by that rule the OP is still fine. How often do players find spells that will give them immortality just lying around?
If the OP's whole setup wasn't a trick, he's essentially handing the party immortality on a platter, without having to do any real work. How many DMs are actually going to do that?
>>45850524
If he had been cautious and done his homework, I would want to reward him with a further hook that explains how he can get back if he really wants to go ahead with the spell.
That would encourage him to investigate more in the future.
>>45850395
>in game warnings usually don't mean a lot
Only to stupid players who think the world exists to bend to them, and people who are used to video games.
People who are not stupid realized that the only scale that a pc has is what they learn IC. I had the same problem with a player years ago when they were hired to oust a pack of vicious bandits. The party was told to their face, "We have sent out 9 groups to kill them. 2 returned, carrying their dead. We offer a high reward because the danger is high, so take all manner of precaution".
I went on to tell them that some of the survivors of the first group still lived in the city, and they could ask them about what they ran in to.
They didn't see them, and when they were getting thrashed by nonstop hit and run attacks, traps everywhere, poisons, etc, one of the players started to bitch that it was too hard. When I said to him that he was told, IC, in the only way it mattered that this was NOT a milk run, he threw the whole "GMs LIE" shit at me.
He left the game next session. Oh well.
>>45850668
>how does a player judge what is a tricky challenge versus a nigh-guaranteed TPK?
By doing research on the situation, and treating it in character as something serious, even if the player does not, as the character's nature decrees.
The game may work on the expectation that the players will face great danger, but it is the PLAYERS' expectation that despite the danger, they will still have the chance to win. Sometimes, it's out of your pay grade.
>>45845643
If you can escape from it... And get books with you - I want that power Irl.
People who Dm'd even once in their life will tell you that you did the right thing.
People who never Dm'd will be mad at you, screaming.
Honestly - you gave him multiple warnings, lore said so, AND he has a chance to get back.
you can limit his interaction with real world - some crude form of communication and have him work with rest of party to rescue him.
>>45845165
Unnecessarily deep pitfall with no real objective to it. Just a severe pitfall to fuck a curious player.
Otherwise it was fine.
Try to be less severe.
>>45845165
>It would have been perfect if during the adventure they found some cryptic clue as to how get that nigga out. Probably would have been nice if some means of communication between realities was possible.
And then you let him fall into pitfall, give him a nice small spell when he's out, but don't forget to add something analogue to: "welcome to dark souls prepare to die edition" in such a way that players understand the risks of drawing power out from unknown sources.
Seriously, if you're in a wild magic campaign, a wild psionic campaign, or you're some sort of eldritch warlock you should be well fucking prepared for this shit, but players are often more retarded that the characters they portray.
