Long story short, DM will only do a Dark Sun campaign if we do it in D&D 4th ed.
I need your help, /TG/.
I've looked over the mechanics and this edition does -not- look enjoyable to me. Not in the slightest. Sword Mage looks kind of alright but that's it.
Post fun times you've had with 4e. Stories, characters, builds, tricks, encounters, anything. Anything.I just want to play a fucking bug.
>>45527272
I played a half-elf barbarian who specialized in throwing his enemies halfway across the room and knocking them on their ass.
This was pretty effective, since the setting was a chain of floating islands.
Me and the fighter became tag team champions of a local fighting ring and were allowed to develop a custom cooperative maneuver as a reward.
Oh, yeah, and then we deliberately escalated a war between the two largest nations in the setting in hopes they'd wipe each other out and not devastate the tiny nations in-between as had been their MO up to that point.
My half-elf's motivation for this? He wanted to kick off Ragnarok in order to please his viking gods and earn the exalted place in heaven he'd need to be able to be reunited with his wife in eternity, a human shamaness he knew he'd outlive.
I engineered the destruction of an economic strongpoint in the nominal name of denying it to both nations by unleashing acid-breathing dragons on it.
Ostensibly, I escalated a conflict and killed hundreds in the interest of limiting the strategic value of the island to both sides, forcing them to divert their forces elsewhere.
In truth, I did it for love.
I have only ever been in two long standing campaigns. This is the story of my proudest moment.
At the time, I was going through a bit of a phase of existential dread, and had the void of death on the brain. What sort of character should come to life but a warforged, a race without an afterlife in a setting where everyone else was assured of theirs? He was a paladin, broken free of the lord of blades. I named him Cyrus Gold, after the undying Solomon Grundy, and a symbol of his God, Pelor.
Now see, I love playing tanks. It feels so good to get swung at by an enemy and laugh in the face of danger. But I also enjoy playing counter to my role. So sometimes I would rush in recklessly, as was my job. But sometimes I liked to play against that, and emphasize the compassionate part of being a paladin. What can be solved peacefully? Why do we fight? And so on.
Eventually the campaign had gotten to a point where we had begun picking up the first hints of the plot. There were large engraved dragon scales, artifacts of an old goddess which we had been picking up. And eventually we came to the end of a dungeon. Our enemies were several. Firstly, there were three gnolls. Beyond them, a goblin held on a leash by a Tiefling. And next to him, a necromancer on an undead steed.
Clearly, as a son of Pelor, it's my job to rush in, yell about good overcoming evil, and smash my way through the ranks until I could smite and cleave, right?
Well, that's be boring, and I had a WIS score high enough, and a background relevant enough to warrant some solid planning. I can see that the necromancer' horse has two of those scales mounted to the sides. So I ask the necromancer if the ones that we found belonged to him, and begin to approach to return them. Everybody can clearly tell that I'm setting up a trap. So he sends the gnolls three to retrieve them for him.
"Describe the gnolls to me."
They're clearly unhealthy, and seem to be half-starved to death. Mother-like, I express my astonishment. I am obviously unable to offer food of my own, but instead offer some of my companion's rations. With solid rolls from me and my teammates, the gnolls abandon their objective to dig in.
The subordinate goblin is pissed. He's clearly low-ranking, but those gnolls were likely his slaves, or at least he got to feel superior to them. He moves to attack me.
1, fumbles, eats dirt.
"Are you okay? Do you need healing?" I say. When turned down, I turn my attention to the Tiefling. Motherly once more, I storm to the Tiefling.
"And you? Where do you think you get off, holding a knife to that poor goblin's back like that?" The Tiefling begins to explain that the knife was infused with a healing spell, but at this point I'm adjacent to the horse. I ask for a surprise attack. Begrudgingly, I am granted one. I deal radiant damage, popping the necromancer and his horse, which had just been clones all along. The gnolls turn on the goblin and devour him, and the Tiefling manages to flee.
I later learned that the gnolls were intended to be sacrificed, and a number hulk would rise for us to fight instead.
And that's the story of how my Warforged paladin adopted three gnoll daughters, Annie, Mary, and Bonnie.
>>45527272
What doesn't look enjoyable?
I'm in a game currently where I'm playing a rather goofy character. Pixie Paladin of the Raven Queen. Grew up in some idealistic fern-gully sort of place and is in the middle of a rebellious phase, choosing to wear dark clothing and worship a dark, edgy goddess.
Not as intimidating or impressive as she thinks she is.
>>45527272
Aside from the skill challenges the system was very easy to play and run. I like how the edition was able to even the playing field a bit when it came to martial and arcane/divine classes.
>>45527272
Quit drinking the meme koolaid, Anon. 4e is fine.
Having played every edition from 2e-5e, I can say 4e is my favorite edition of D&D to both run and play.
My favorite campaign moments include my players getting into a rock off with a wandering band of bards and creating a song about their exploits, my Warforged Swordmage coming back from the dead after being Atomic Piledriven off an airship, and our all divine group storming Castle Ravenloft reskinned as a Blood of Vol crawling corpse castle.
Oh, and any time I got run the ToH or a Fourthcore dungeon always results in at least laughter and some amount of confusion from the players.
>>45527272
Garen Rugal, inspiring heroes, headbutting fire elementals, getting impaled intentionally to clutch on the weapon while the others beat on the BBEG's ass,being a thinly veiled anime reference... and then at the final moment getting betrayed by the thief because "I'm roleplaying!".
You'll be missed, you most bravura of warlords sonova bitch!
>>45527272
>Long story short, DM will only do a Dark Sun campaign if we do it in D&D 4th ed
Sacrifice him to Satan on the next moonless night, obviously.
It's a 2e setting, 2e has all the material, plenty of options, and most of the cool stuff. Most importantly, 2 and 4e have entirely different mechanical tones, and the latter doesn't fit the setting at all. You play it in 2e unless your GM is willing and able to build a 4e hack for it.
>>45531897
What does 2e do better for Darksun exactly?
Mechanically, I mean. Setting stuff/monsters/adventures can be ported over.
>>45531897
>You play it in 2e unless your GM is willing and able to build a 4e hack for it.
You know 4e had multiple books for it? It's one of the best supported settings for 4e next to Points of Light.
It had solid rules for Defiling magic and non-metal weapons as well as a table for random minor psychic powers.
Heck, the Shaman is so tied to Arthas that it's level 29 daily for the Animist is 'Fury of Athas' and one of the Warlock pacts is "Sorcerer-King pact'
>>45531897
you don't need to build a hack for it, 4e had a published darksun setting.
>>45531926
the animist shaman was an archetype published specifically for darksun
>>45531946
Yeah, that was my point. That the shaman was a very iconic class for Dark Sun and had an entire archetype designed around it.
Not sure I phrased it well.
>>45531916
The relative power and options open to starting characters, as well as tension. A 2e level 1 PC is a fragile thing, and getting into combat without definite advantage is risky and sometimes lethal. Poison will kill your bitch ass if you look at it funny. A single spell can make or break a combat, which is good because that's exactly how many you have.
It emphasizes the sort of conflict that'd be inherent to the setting: ambushes, night raids, poisoning rival gladiators so they don't push your shit in with four swords at the same time. 4e is much smoother. Not less tactical or worse, but less tense and less lethal, which somewhat blunts the 'this is a murderous shithole and everything in it is willing and able to kill you' impact of the setting. Plus a lot of stuff and options just can't be done in 4e for various reasons from balance to the underlying mechanics not being there.
Mind, I like 4e. 4e is fine. Just not for this exact setting.
>>45531897
I would argue the clear power source/class role divide in 4e made quite easy to adapt to dark sun. eliminating divine classes posed no problem and primal power was far more fleshed out and prominent than it is in other editions
>>45531957
>The relative power and options open to starting characters, as well as tension. A 2e level 1 PC is a fragile thing, and getting into combat without definite advantage is risky and sometimes lethal. Poison will kill your bitch ass if you look at it funny. A single spell can make or break a combat, which is good because that's exactly how many you have.
But Dark Sun expressly had rules when it came out for making PCs bigger and tougher so they COULD survive in Dark Sun because it's such a harsh setting.
>>45531957
Aren't people of Athas supposed to be tough motherfuckers? Granted the monsters are tougher, but getting tougher monsters is not a hard thing to do in 4e
>>45531957
>Plus a lot of stuff and options just can't be done in 4e for various reasons from balance to the underlying mechanics not being there.
What mechanics are missing?
>>45531962
This. You can actually have a party without wizard/cleric in 4e, and it'll be functional.
>>45531957
I actually think 4e's surges were a great way to give players a resource that could both grant them reliable survivability yet also be taken away/hard pressed by a tough environment. Draining their surges as they fail endurance rolls and such to survive the rigors of Athas translates the exhausting nature of life there well. If they're not careful they'll end up ganked in the desert with few/no surges to pull them out. I think it does a good job of striking that balance of "you are tough, but the world is tougher".
>>45531980
Throwing monsters that are 2, occasionally 3 levels above the party is a great way to have a fight that's dangerous while still completely beatable.
>>45532033
>Draining their surges as they fail endurance rolls
I love doing this. It's such a simple and effective method.
>>45532083
Adding an actual economy to the healing mechanic was a brilliant idea. Gives the DM a wonderfully easy way to regulate the toughness of the player without outright trying to murder them every fight. Such a pity it didn't make it to 5e.
>>45532142
I find it hilarious that 5e has exactly the healing mechanic that the loud people who didn't actually know anything about 4e accused healing surges of being
>>45532142
Yeah. It really makes a Long Day of fighting hell on the team.
It also gave some very interesting interactions. Like how Paladins heal with their own surges and Artificer Healing Infusions can be made with a surge worth of life energy from any person, not just the beneficiary.
>>45532083
You could also play around with enemy types: Swarm them with hard hitting minions, use skirmishers to backstab them while controllers/artillery keep them pinned down, etc.
>>45527272
The only time I played 4e I made a dwarf fighter and did everything I could to give him the highest initiative possible. I think I was up to 14 by level two.
>>45527272
What doesn't look enjoyable? Combat's great, everyone has stuff to do. Or should unless your GM's an ass.
>>45532275
Not OP but I was kind of in the same boat when my group first wanted to try 4e. The ability card things made every class feel the same and it felt like it was designed for people more used to video games than anything else. Actually playing the game was just a very bland experience.
I'm not trying to spout memes or get into an edition war or anything, that's just my impression of the game. D&D as a whole isn't usually my bag though.
>>45532390
>The ability card things made every class feel the same
That's like saying every spell was the same because they had the same notation format, though. It's not like the warlord and ranger get the same abilities. Hell, even classes in the same role are totally different; compare clerics to warlords.
>>45532487
I don't know man, maybe it was just me or the group or whatever but every time I've played 4e it seemed like we might as well have all been playing the same class. Like having all of your combat options there on the cards seemed to homogenize everything and didn't leave much room for interpretation or creativity? I don't know I can't really think of a way to describe it better.
>>45532620
As opposed to having them in a book allowing creativity? I'm not 100% sure how clear and distinct presentation makes something less creative.
>>45532620
I had another player I DM'd for tell me something similar. I pointed out it's really a lot like 3.5 (a spell slot=a daily, etc.), and his answer was "well, 3.5 doesn't explicitly say it" and that that bothers him.
Some people are just bothered if the game removes even the last really thin layer of simulationism 3.5 tried to cover itself.
>>45530745
Remember that skill challenges have always been scene-framing devices for the GM, that players should never be overtly told that they are in a skill challenge, and that the Rules Compendium has the most up-to-date skill DCs and skill challenge rules.
>>45531957
Dark Sun PCs in AD&D 2e started at 3rd-level and had inflated ability scores.
>>45532033
It is worth noting that with a good enough Nature modifier and a mundane dowsing rod, it is fully possible to survive in the wilds of Athas without survival days simply by foraging under the listed DCs, even in a dust sink or a salt flat (only DC 20 to forage, which is much more possible than you think).
>>45532083
To use Monster Manual 3/Monster Vault/Monster Vault: Nentir Vale/Dark Sun Creature Catalog math. Avoid or manually update anything with Monster Manual 1 or 2 math.
Fortunately, Dark Sun's main monster book is amongst those, so running exciting combats under the setting is easy enough.
>>45532259
How had you managed initiative +14 by level 2? Initiative optimization is not quite necessary in D&D 4e; it is relatively low-priority compared to increasing attack bonus, then primary options for class role effectiveness, then defenses, then secondary options for class role effectiveness, then damage.
>>45532652
I guess this applies more to martials but you know how in older editions and I guess 5e your only real option in combat was "attack" but you could describe how you're attacking and work it out with the DM whether or not it would be reasonable to get a bonus or added effect to the attack. In 4e it's just "here's your card". Like having everything defined how it was actually seemed to give you less options, at least in my experience.
Again, maybe the issue was more with the group since we tend to play combat pretty loose. I'm not saying the system is boring, I'm saying we were bored.
>>45532666
That's actually the exact problem I had with it, thanks Satan.
>>45532620
If you really were all playing the same way your GM was not playing Team Monster properly. Each class has it's own playstyle, even within categories, and if your GM is allowing you to get away with ignoring that, then your encounters haven't been very threatening.
>>45532764
> but you could describe how you're attacking and work it out with the DM whether or not it would be reasonable to get a bonus or added effect to the attack.
I think that's more a GM thing. I mean, previous editions had no provisions for that. It's all GM adjudication. 4e tried (Even if the math was imperfect) with some guidelines in the DMG for improvisation to try and make it worth the effort without being completely overwhelmingly good.
>>45532750
>How had you managed initiative +14 by level 2?
It was some combination of class abilities, feats and optional stuff I don't quite remember. I know we were using that character creation program that had a whole bunch of splatbooks so I probably pulled a bunch of shit from those.
I know it was effectively useless but the idea of someone having reflexes so unnecessarily fast seemed funny at the time.
>>45532804
In 3.5 you try to swing on a chandelier and kick the orc?
You roll jump to jump on it, climb to hold on, acrobatics to land (okay, lets be fair, maybe the DM only asks for an acrobatics, but there was really no guarantee or guideline for that), then you can make a single attack at -4 because you don't have IUS and deal like, d4+STR damage.
In 4e, you roll acrobatics, make a dex vs Fort, the ork takes level appropriate damage and is probably prone or pushed back.
>>45532764
>I guess 5e your only real option in combat was "attack" but you could describe how you're attacking and work it out with the DM whether or not it would be reasonable to get a bonus or added effect to the attack
This was one of the classic arguments against 4th Edition DnD.
1. Having choices doesn't limit your options. You can still role play out attacks and get creative, that wasn't removed from the game.
2. Isn't the argument "The game is worse, so it was better?" Weird? You don't have any fun options so you resorted to making it up for yourself. That's fine, that's the point of table top I'd go so far as to say.
But again, you never lost that option in 4e. You also have the choice of just saying "Fuck it, im using my card. It works. I trip the fucker." no negotiations needed.
>>45532888
It's really bizarre to think about how the entire gameplay balance between martials and casters used to hinge entirely on whether your DM was in a good mood that day. Like maybe your DM is totally cool with the idea of swashbucklers swinging around on chandeliers, but mine is a hardcore grognard who makes you roll four skill checks to add one point of damage to your roll. Meanwhile the wizard always does exactly 3d8 damage no matter what the DM thinks about him, because the spell list in the PHB says so.
>>45532967
It doesn't matter.
It doesn't "feel" like he can improvise as well. He's just not that type. He needs the game to lie and pretend it's simulating something. It's a personality type thing. I have met, talked, and gamed with people I consider really very intelligent. We had beers, talked it over, and agreed there's no logical reason for him to feel that way... but he does. He can't help it. He needs the pretense.
>>45533085
What's weirder is I used to assume this was advocated for by the people who always got to nuke stuff, but no, apparently loads of people like playing DM-May-I.
>>45527272
See
>>45532750
4e Dark Sun is the best thing that edition produced. It reset the fucked up 'plot' that 2e left behind and gave us a proper setting meant to be made your own, the companion Creature Catalog had monster with the fixed math that made combat significantly more challenging and fun (and a little faster) and gave the DM options as to what themes he or she want to concentrate on.
Even something as minor as having the wild talents gave the world a lot flavor otherwise missing in the rest of the (disastrous) 4e setting reboots.
Mechanically speaking I played a warlord for most of 4e just so I could order other PC around. Really good times.
Also, if it help I would strongly suggest you parley with the DM and tell him or her that you do not want them to take it easy on the party or ask for wishlist and shit. Make it clear that you want to scratch the inside of their mind and see what comes out. You end up with a much more traditional and immersive experience.
>>45533098
Some people do.
Usually, I've noticed, people who were raised in that environment.
I grew up on AD&D and 3.5's insistence on providing nitty-gritty interactions for everything was annoying to the point of paralysis.
And this from someone who understood THAC0 and didn't mind percentile skills - D&D4e felt more true to AD&D-style dungeon crawling than 3.X in any variation.
I'm not a big fan of 4e but when my group decided to try it out I ended up having a suprisingly good time playing the hex blade, it does a really good job of capturing the whole "spellsword" angle that I always figured it was supposed to be, they have a surprisingly good amount of utility and combat options at their disposal, so even if the module doesn't interest you all that much then at least you'll have some fun with your character if that sort of thing interests you.
>>45536686
Hexblades are pretty cool. As an essentials class, they lagg behind a bit, but pactblades are so cool.
>>45527272
4e is a different kind of game, though interestingly enough, it works quite well for Dark Sun... it's just not the type of dark sun you're used to.
The D&D you're used to is not so much about heroes, as it is about adventurers. You're not necessarily the protagonists of the story, you're just some guy/girl with some skills, trying to survive a harsh world. In the world of post-apocalypse, it's a lot more like Children of Men, where the world is harsh, and doesn't care about you, and the world isn't going to get any better, because people are awful.
4e is less about adventurers, and more about HEROES, with a capital BIG DAMN. The mechanics are specifically designed to create protagonists of stories that are about them, if you aren't the action heroes of whatever movie you're in, it starts to feel clunky, so you're just going to have to accept that conceit or move on to a different game. While that might at-first seem anathema to Dark Sun, it's not actually. The world is a shithole, and you're the only heroes destined enough to save it. That's part of why the 4e version of the fluff locks the timeframe permanently on "shit's grim, but there's an ember of hope that's just been stoked, but needs Heroes to keep it alive." In the world of post apocalypse, it's more like Fury Road, where the heroes suffer greatly and sacrifice much, but for the hope of a better world (or possibly for the hope of conquering that world for themselves.)
If you're trying to shoehorn 2eDS fluff ingo 4eDS mechanics, it doesn't really work, but if you take it for what it is, it works beautifully, and tells just that kind of action movie story.
