>I feel no responsibility to comrades who've lost lives under my command. Because they chose to fight in each battle.. Just as I chose this. But if there is something that... I can do for them. Something I can do for the dead... Then it is to win! I must keep winning to attain my dream. The same one they clung to, and risked their lives for!! To realize my dream, I will perch on top of their corpses.. It is a blood-smeared dream, after all. I don't regret or feel guilty about it.. But to risk thousands of lives while never getting myself dirty. It's not a dream that can be so easily realized!
He is a paladin right? With that purity of purpose and will?
>>48280505
Sounds more like an Anti-Paladin to me.
>>48280505
Antipaladin. He is literally unable to comprehend that people aren't inherently selfish, will kill his allies to obtain his own goals, etc.
Neutral Evil Antipaladin/Insinuator, more like.
Or just a fucking Fighter because not everyone who has some kind of moral compass is a Paladin.
>>48280505
One who doesn't feel guilty or responsible over the death of commarades, even if he's innocent of those, is an evil one
>>48280505
the fuck is that hideous picture
Evil, but likable evil.
Blackguard. He's using divine/demonic powers to further his own goals. It is unknown if his goals conincide with those of his patron, but it's not against their interests. I'd say he's Neutral Evil after the Eclipse, if not before.
Guts is a Fighter, he isn't powered by a patron (his various items have powers but he doesn't directly power them). He's just more moral than Griffith.
>>48280505
>people saying he's evil
There's nothing evil about leading people to their deaths in service of a noble cause. Next you'll be saying that King Arthur is evil, or that the crusades were immoral.
>>48280881
he really feels selfishly neutral, at least in his philosophy, but he does fall into evil deeds later on
>>48280881
>in service of a noble cause
>Griffith wanting to be a king in a castle
>noble cause
Okay. His dream was always selfish bullshit, but people went along with it because of his charisma.
He climbed that mountain of corpses to reach the castle. He was a piece of shit even before he sacrificed his comrades.
>>48280545
But people will do all those things realistically.
>>48280881
There's a difference between leading people where's the risk of them dying and actively killing them.
>>48280961
But they wanted to die.
>>48280881
Leading people to their deaths in pursuit of a goal doesn't make you evil
Literally sacrificing all the people closest to you to literal demons in order to obtain another chance at that goal does.
>>48280505
I have no idea about the source material, so I'm just going off of greentext here.
I think you can make that case, and I'd allow it at my table. That said, I expect more empathy from someone who wants to play 'good'. I can kinda see this working if the 'dream' in question is some kind of great good. That's the sort of empathy I expect from a paladin: empathy for the victim and justice for the criminal. Moreover, I don't accept that he can be better than 'neutral' without personally taking part in the battle in question, even if he just leads from the back strategically. Then it's too much like he's sacrificing people without the personal risk I expect of 'good'. (Specifically in reference to the second-to-last sentence.)
>>48281306
Prettyman up there wanted to become a demon king, so he became a loved army commander. So loved by his men that they trusted him in every battle. Eventually it's time for his apotheosis, and the price was the body and soul of every soldier in his army. His betrayal was total, and he felt no guilt over it.
One guy fought back, and the demon prince raped his ladyfriend until her mind broke, then branded the only dude who stood up to him so he'd always be a beacon for demons to follow him and try to kill him for the rest of his life.
Not good in any sense of the word.
>>48281430
To be slightly fair to Griffisu he didn't START wanting to become a DEMON King, just a King. Nor did he START with the intention of sacrificing everyone who ever liked him to huge hungry demons.
He was just given the choice to do so. And he took it. Making him evil.
>Hey guys, wanna fight as mercenaries for me and help me get a sweet kingdom?
>Sure!
>Wanna be sacrificed to demons and suffer horrific deaths so I can become a raping demon overlord?
>Hey wait a minu--
>TOO LATE ASSHOLES I'M KING THICKDICK OF FUCK MOUNTAIN NOW
The difference is in prior consent. It's one thing to willingly make a sacrifice on someone's behalf, and another to be made a sacrifice against their will.
>>48281474
Ah, fair enough. It's been ages since I read em, so I appreciate the clarification.
>>48281504
Also, new anime a shit that ruined chocolate waifu.
>Chivalrous to a fault
>Voluntarily celibate
>Puts himself in harm's way rather than send more inexperienced knights to their death
>Shows honor and courtesy to his enemies, to the point of stopping his comrades from killing an unconscious Guts in retribution
>Even when no longer a knight of the holy sea he still travels to right wrongs
>Arguably the most heroic character in the series
If anyone deserves to be called a paladin, it's Azan.
>>48280881
Griffith is evil as fuck. Just because he feels some amount of guilt about throwing hundreds of soldiers away so that he can be a king doesn't make him a good person, because he does it anyway.
He starts neutral, but when the chips are down he trades everything for his own personal ambitions.
>>48280881
The crusades were immoral as shit. They were basically excuses for knights to murder and loot.
>>48281474
To be more fair, he was not exactly in the right state of mind when he made that choice. Being a shattered wreck of a person who was tortured for an entire year and is trapped in his own body unable to do literally anything, even talk is going to mess a guy up.
>>48281636
I'd say the goodest of the good guys in Berserk are
>Azan
>Serpico
>The two Midland knights in the royal court whose names I can't really remember
>Shierke
>Rickert
The kid noble who hangs around with Griffith also seems pretty good despite being on the wrong side too. Skull Knight seems very just and selfless too but I imagine his past as Gaiseric is full of some pretty awful shit.
Obviously Guts becomes a nicer and nicer guy as the series goes on but he did some questionable shit during his mercenary days and as the Black Swordsman. Likewise, Farnese is good nowand completely fucking bland and boringbut has a pretty shady past.Serpico too despite my fondness for him
>>48281755
Yea but he boned Charlotte and got himself caught because his dream shattered when Guts left and he realized that not everyone will always bend to his will.
>>48280944
t. a sociopath.
>>48280881
Pre-Eclipse Griffith was amoral.
Post-Eclipse Griffith is immoral.
The Band agreed to fight for his ideals. They did not agree to be sacrificed for godlike powers.
>>48281673
The crusades brought civilization to barbarians. While i agree it didn't have the desired effect it wasn't from lack of trying and i feel we have the tools at hand now to succeed where we previously failed.
>>48282012
>mfw i dont have a bait image.
>>48280674
>liking griffith
I shall destroy you with the rage of guts
>>48282012
Dude, no. During the crusades the Middle East was more civillized than Europe. They had actual doctors, not retards who cut off limbs and drilled holes in people's heads.
>>48282012
If you define the barbarians of that conflict as the Europeans, you could actually make that argument.
>>48282082
>>48282059
Whatever you say ackmed.
>>48282059
Poor Middle East, getting barbarian-fucked from both ends. You got the Mongols burning all your libraries and smelly Christians sacking everything else. Though their invading Iberia didn't exactly make them popular in Europe.
>>48280623
A girly boy who would sell his body to old men and sell out his own loyal subordinates to demons.
>>48282059
Overselling it. Amputation was still a battlefield remedy at the time since it takes a lot of particular tools, time, knowledge, and skill to know how to reconstruct a leg. They were just far better at doing it without the amputee dying since they sorta understood how infection worked better then Europeans did.
>>48282012
This post brings to mind an old saw. Something about failing to learn from history...
>>48281673
What the shit? No they weren't. They were excuses to get the knights out of Europe. They were going to murder and loot no matter where they were.
>>48281673
There was nothing immoral about the crusades in and of themselves. Muslims had conquered all of North Africa, took loads of Byzantine land, conquered Iberia, invaded parts of Italy, and actively raided France. A Christian backlash against it was inevitable and justified.
>>48282012
>>48282059
>>48282082
>>48282179
I don't know if he was trolling or just not specific, but the crusades in Eastern Europe brought civilization to the barbarians there. Funny enough as soon as they accepted Christ it became much harder for the crusaders to rob and pillage them. The Teutonic Knights are mediocre fighters with a crazy bonus against pagans.
>>48282367
I would assume he was talking about the crusades for Jerusalem.
Did the Eastern European Crusades even do anything besides get Lithuanians to barely speed up the conversion to Christiany?
>>48282438
Brought tech and knowledge to the areas visited.
>>48282438
They created the state of Prussia, converted Livonians, Lithuanians, and other small ethnic groups around the area, and made enemies of Poland, the Mongols/Tartars, and later free Russia. For the prologue they actually went and drove heathens out of Transylvania on behalf of Hungary for which they were thanked by being told to fuck the hell off. The Teutonic Knights are basically very skilled warriors who are equally skilled at getting themselves screwed over.
>>48281784
That whore who took care of Casca in the Conviction Arc is a better person than most of those.
>>48280881
Griffith's cause wasn't noble. He wanted to become a king and rule over people, not to help anyone by doing so, but because he just wanted it.
>>48282707
Why not?
>>48282686
The whores are pretty high tier morality too, yeah, but I wouldn't say quite as high tier as the others listed. Also I just remembered - Godo and his daughter. They're good.
>>48283180
>Takes Casca in because she realizes Casca can't take care of herself, even though food is scarce
>Bandages Casca's face and tell people she's a leper so no one will rape her or try to buy her
What has Schierke or Serpico done that even comes close to her selflessness?
>>48280505
Was Griffith always a complete sociopath, or did becoming Femto do that?
>>48282059
>During the crusades the Middle East was more civillized than Europe
Citation needed.
Look at the middle east now. Doesn't look so civilized.
>>48283515
He was always a sociopath. He always saw other people as a means to an end.
>>48281755
To be unfair it was entirely his own fault because he couldn't deal with Guts surpassing him and effectively stealing Casca's adoration.
Hell he tries to rape Casca when they help him.
>>48281526
I hated how the CGI movie made Casca's rape seem like a hentai. That really pissed me off because it undermined the whole fucking point of it.
>>48280881
No, but literally sacrificing them as an offering to attain pseudo-godhood and then raping one of your most trusted lieutenant in front of her lover who betrayed you?
He's repulsive.
>all these Griffith apologists ITT
>>48283974
He didn't even betray him, Guts just wanted to travel by himself and search for his own purpose in life. Griff got salty, then lost.
>>48281755
The be unfair, if you sacrifice all your friends to demons you're the type of man willing to sacrifice all your friends to demons and everything up till then has just been haggling over price.
>>48280505
Didn't Treize give pretty much the exact same speech?
>>48284344
Shit he even did it so that he could be closer friends with Griffith because GRIFFITH TOLD HIM THATS WHAT IT TAKES TO BE HIS FRIEND.
Griffith is a monster who deserves to die. And I am normally someone who leaves violence as a last resort.
Griffith, however, deserves a nice thick slab of iron into his cranium at 300 mph.
>>48284402
I'm still convinced Guts will reject the Berserk armour and it'll go all Hellhound and end up devouring Griffith.
What's more fitting for a would-be godking then being eaten by filthy hounds?
>>48284432
I want Guts to go so berserk that he kills his friends in blind rage. Then, we will have Lost Children again, with Guts traveling solo.
This time, he won't have anything to lose. The only thing pushing him forward will be revenge.
>>48284462
>Poster confirmed to be Beast of Darkness
As much as I only like about half of the ever expanding Guts fun time party squad I really don't want them to die just because Guts' live sucks so god damned much already I really don't want it to take another sharp dive. Especially if Caska dies, especially if its Guts' fault. Jesus christ.
>>48280881
he literally sacrificed all of his comrades to undo damage that he caused to himself by fucking a princess in the night rather than asking for her hand in marriage and her father's blessing, things he would've gotten no doubt being the hero he was. and he did this just because his most treasured warrior was inspired by hi "Don't live in other's shadows, pursue your own dream" thing.
He literally couldn't comprehend guts wanting to try and step up and become his equal so he could see HIMSELF as Griffith's true friend and not a subordinate. Griffith is a fucking retarded sociopath, and lets not forget that when he raped Caska he was staring guts dead in the eyes with a mix of hate and longing.
I'm genuinely unsure if that post if bait or if you're just fucking autistic by the textbook definition.
>>48283989
It's like Hawk is with us here, in spirit!
>>48283515
There's this whole deal where he tells Guts he only respects people who pursue their dreams, so Guts leaves to go pursue his dream of being da biggest and da strongest, and Griffith gets all pissy that he left so he fugs the king's daughter and completely ruins his life. Crippled by torture and a clear burden to everyone around him, he does a sacrifice and fucks over his entire army, men who faithfully served and looked up to him.
Then he raped Guts' girlfriend in front of him.
>>48283347
I don't even know what makes Serpico a good person. He's a good dog?
>>48284588
>rather than asking for her hand in marriage and her father's blessing, things he would've gotten no doubt being the hero he was.
I dunno, her dad seemed to really want to fuck her.
>>48284720
I know the story, anon.
I was just wonder whether he was truly a sociopath before everything went downhill in the Golden Age.
>>48284770
Nothing indicates he wasn't.
>>48283557
Yeah, having the mongols fuck you up can do that to you.
>>48284588
He would not have gotten it. Remember, having a behilt means that God will actively screw your life over to give you a moment of total despair.
No matter what, the Eclipse would happen, although he was free to choose to tell them to fuck off once it did.
>>48284345
Circumstance matters. It isn't like he actively sought out demons to get their power. He got offered power in the worst moment of his life.
>>48280505
He just sounds like an evil gaylord justifying his actions.
>>48284930
Honestly I think this is just godhand taking credit for things they never did, Guts walking out alive from the eclipse was something they never expected to happen, which their ability to see the future and change is not as great as they say it is.
If Griffith had been smarter he would have married the princess and made her pregnant with the kings blessing.
Instead Griffith basically went full retard and the god hand came to take the credit saying the planned everything, when most likely they just got lucky that Griffith was such a fucking retard.
>>48285107
Guts would have died there if it weren't for the Skull Knight. Most of fate in Berserk is set in stone, but in the tiniest window where fate can change, the Skull Knight appears.
>>48285203
The point remains that they did not anticipate Skull Knight's meddling in their affairs and "Guts escaping".
The reason is not important. The point is that they didn't see it coming and could not stop it.
>>48281673
I'm tired of the "Crusaders were ruthless pillagers" meme, Looting and the like was pretty much the same as other conflicts at the time, as in it happened and was horrible, but only slightly worse than the Norman Invasion of England. If you want horrible bloodshed, look at Charlemagne's War for Saxony
The crusades began because of three things
1: The Umayyids (A muslim Kingdom) had conquered most of Hispania, triggering the reconquista
2: Seljuk Turks had begun Expanding into Eastern Roman Lands
3: The Seljuks Didn't allow Christians to visit Jerusalem
The Pope wanted to Mend the schism between East and West, and so he came to the (Byzantine) Roman's Aid, many christians were already angry because the Muslims no longer allowed them in the holy lands (Because the Muslims that allowed them were kicked out by the Seljuks).
Admittedly, the fourth crusade was a horrible thing that led to the fall of the Roman Empire, but T\the crusades to the levant were just standard war campaigns with the aim of bringing the west together, instead of squabling kingdoms.
>>48285302
Dammit, I took the bait
>>48284588
>autistic by the textbook definition
what you dislike about his post and his reasoning has nothing to do with the definition of autistic.
I've gotten to the point where I can ignore that people use the term 'autistic' to mean things that have nothing to do with autism, but brining in textbook definition is a bridge to fucking far.
>>48285338
autism: a mental condition, present from early childhood, characterized by difficulty in communicating and forming relationships with other people and in using language and abstract concepts. Given his inability to understand the difference between outright sacrificing people for personal gain and leading people into a situlation where they could potentally die for a "noble cause" he seems pretty autistic to me
>>48285338
>A Bridge Too Far
Hey now that movie was awesome, don't drag it into this mess.
>>48285406
then that's a shitty textbook, or a very poor understanding of 'abstract concepts' as meant here.
trust me when I say, the fuckups he made were not in any way autistic fuckups. People misuse the term massively on this site.
He's being a troll, and edgelord (nothing to do with autism), or doesn't actually know the charcter or the story.
Someone autistic enough to have confused what you think he confused, would be close to non-commucative.
What the fuck was wrong with the term 'idiot' or 'stupid'. It's what people actually mean.
>>48285470
t.asaltyautist
>>48284886
But the Russia is as cool as it's ever been. Big Bad Vlad is putting the empire back together.
>>48285203
>but in the tiniest window where fate can change, the Skull Knight appears.
And he would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for those meddlingGOD part of the name GODhand
>>48284770
It's right there
>says "everybody should follow their dreams!"
>"wait wtf his dream is NOT making ME king?!"
Pretty sociopathic.
>>48285302
>1: The Umayyids
Damn. That name.
Just.
That fucking name.
>>48280505
Nope. A cause that is pure and evil does not wrap around into being good.
>>48285888
>putting the empire back together
>ruining his countries reputation 15 different ways and permanently fucking over its economy
>>48285904
As much as I have always loved that worried puppy look on Zodd's face in that image, that scene was such a colossal disappointment. There was so much foreshadowing of Skull Knight actually doing something important with that damn Behelit sword and then we got absolutely nothing other than proof of how fucking strong Femto's in-universe plot armor is. Which I wouldn't have a problem with, but only if they had simply had Skull Knight attack him normally instead of with a badass sword that seemed really important.
>>48284400
Griffith never told that to Guts. He told it to the princess and Guts just overheard. From Griffith's perspective, Guts was already his friend and equal.
>>48281673
You know nothing about the crusades, libtard.
>Gets saved from torture by his two best friends
>Rapes one and has the other mutilated
>Orchestrates a war
>Invites demons to come end it
Yeah he sounds like a real defender of justice
Also I think it was mentioned that those who died during an Apostle's sacrifice are eternally condemned to Hell too. Don't even get rest in death. Good guy Griffith.
>>48289349
Yeah. It's fucked to think about that no matter how bad Guts and Casca's lives are now, they'll have it even worse when they die.
>>48284738
Yeah, Serpico isn't really a nice person.
He's your classic nice bishounen from a girls romance drama, except he really loves his psycho sister.
>>48289477
>>48289349
It's not just Sacrifices. Everyone goes to the Vortex of Souls when they die. If you go back to the Black Swordsman arc, Guts actually sees it at one point, with a character who had just died in it. Basically, there is no Heaven, everyone goes to Hell.
>>48285470
Actual assburger here.
I used to take offense to 4chan's usage of the term "autism", but that was before I was diagnosed. After I was diagnosed I realized that I wasn't really offended by it, and was only taking offense on behalf of other people. "Oh, just think of all those poor children with autism!" I was infantilizing the condition and the people with it.
Now I'm perfectly comfortable with people using "autist" as a general-purpose insult, and even use the term that way myself sometimes. It's refreshing and liberating; it helps me remind myself not to let my diagnosis become part of my identity.
The only real offensive thing about this whole deal is neurotypical people taking patronizing offense on behalf of people who actually have autism.
>>48289565
No I think there is a heaven, the World of Ideas or whatever, but you hafta have no worldly regrets to get there, rather than be good or anything. And in the world of Berserk, no having regrets is a pretty big hurdle to jump over. But for the Branded, you get sent to the Vortex regardless. Same for anyone who deals with the demons, and the Apostles themselves.
>>48289682
Yeah, I'm an aspie too and I don't really give a shit about it either. Autism is a buzzword word now, like weeaboo and faggot. It doesn't really hold any weight, and anyone who takes offense needs to grow thicker skin to be honest.
>>48289984
And now they're just coming out of the wood works. I suppose i should give it a go since we all seem to want to do this.
I personally don't take any offense at the word "normie" despite the fact i pretty much am one.
>>48290026
I don't take offense when people tell me to kill myself because I already want to die.
>>48287093
The sword was important. Its reality warping nature was what Femto used, in conjunction with the core of Ganishka the strongest Apostle, to rework the core of reality and make it into an even more fantastical world. Bummer for Skully but maybe he can kill his best friend in the end.
>>48287001
The two aren't mutually exclusive, Anon. When I say it is as cool as it's ever been I am not implying it was ever a good place to be.
>>48289565
>>48289930
The worst part is that the only higher "God" in the setting appears to be the Idea of Evil, formed from humans' desire to explain away the reason bad things happen to good people. They willed into being the Devil without coming up with someone to oppose it.
>>48290127
Radical!
>>48289984
There have been Aspics I've met online who have taken offense to the word "autism", after which I then give my little testimony about why I don't mind it, to which they respond, "Huh, that makes sense. Maybe I don't really mind it that much."
I think that goes to show how we sometimes end up going through the motions when it comes to emotional reactions -- we aren't REALLY offended, we've just taught ourselves to take offense because that's what's socially expected.
>>48290026
I pity the fool who takes offense to made-up internet words of any kind, much less one that basically tries to turn "Well-adjusted member of society" into an insult.
I can't remember the last paladin who sold all his comrades to the local Lovecraft gods to ascend to godhood, then raped his best friend's waifu while having a bunch of demons force him to watch.
Then again, that could be a case of a paladin falling from grace REALLY fucking hard.
>>48289565
>>48289930
>>48290202
What the Godhand says is that anyone who's involved with demons goes to hell. So, anyone with a Mark or Sacrifice or interacts too much with an Apostle - e.g. Vargas, the little mutilated doctor.
Not every single person in the world goes to the vortex when they die, but a tragic amount of people still do just because fate ordained an Apostle was going to stroll through their neighbourhood some day.
And the Idea of Evil seems to be the most powerful thing in the setting - assuming it's still canon - but there are definitely incredibly powerful good spirits and beings, like the four elemental/cardinal lords and other entities that are called on by 'good' sorcerers. And presumably these beings and the magicians who call on them are capable of posing a threat to the Godhand's plans, hence Flora's death. So, the supernatural and afterlife in Berserk isn't all terrible.
>>48290464
The Idea of Evil is still canon. The chapter was cut because it revealed too much of the setting too early.
>>48290394
Maybe he's just got a really shit patron god.
Like this, my paladins god HATES kobolds and goblins and if I don't smite and cleave their settlements and villages just for having the bad graces of me finding them then i fall from my gods grace. Doesn't matter what they're alignment or INT level is and i'm not required to detect evil either just smite and cleave goblinoids and kobolds.
>>48290558
That kind of Lawful Stupid devotion to god behavior is precisely the reason why I never play paladins, unless it's some really cool splatbook variant that is Chaotic Good or some shit.
>>48290598
Nah. I'm lawful good across the board and i prefer non-lethal punishments to smite and cleave just because someone pinged. The only reason i genocide kobolds is cause if I don't my god will leave me and i need that power to make the world better for those who deserve it and punish and rehabilitate those who need it.
Griffith has got to be my most hated character in fiction. Not that he's poorly written, I think he's a interesting character.
But the things he's done and continues to do make me so mad, it ridiculous. I can't wait until Guts fucking ruins him. He has too. I don't care what else happens, what Guts has to give up or kill, all could be forgiven if he just drags Griffith through the dirt and just destroys him.
That's the only ending I could accept now.
>tfw Berserk won't end
>party wipe 2 won't happen
>Miura doesn't know how to kill Griffith
>>48290825
>Miura can't stop playing fucking idolm@ster long enough to pump out more than two chapters
I knew when that anime came out it was the death of this manga.
>>48290808
It'll just be a sword fight between them. Probably awesomely drawn and maybe actiony as all get out, but still just a sword fight. We already saw how even a super natural super powerful god king who actually knows how this shit works and actively devised a super weapon just to fuck them over and still got his shit kicked in by femto. I'm damn sure its the whole reason they made New Griffith since he's relatively human now. Now it will just be to demi-humans duking shit out with metal and probably fists and we all know Guts will use his teeth somehow but now its just 2 demi's, not the Man vs. God we all want but just another bunch of monsters.
>>48290928
>It'll just be a sword fight
I'm okay with that, to be honest. So long as there is no forgiveness. I want Griffith to ask for it and Guts to deny it..
No reconciliation. Griffith can't have everything.
>>48290990
Nah. Griffith will bawl and whine about how everyone followed him except Guts and Guts will scream something about friendship and trust and maybe love and perhaps there will be rain or some such but both will give it their all cause they owe each other that much but not in hate or sadness but brotherly love and power of friendship style and then Guts and maybe Casca will cry over Griffith's body and maybe there might be makeup/grief sex afterwards. There will never be actual legitimate hate between them as both are emotionally children and incapable of the pure fire a man's heart can contain.
Also he's ripping off the Hero's Journey format bit for bit but stretching it out so that'll help frame this for you.
>>48290464
>Implying Guts' thematic name of "The Struggler* means that as people resistance the acceptance of devil will the Idea of Evil will lose power.Or the idea of Good will form.
>>48291059
How exactly does one rip off the Hero's Journey? The entire point of the Monomyth is that you can apply it to any story.
>>48290558
That isn't a good god.
In the editions where they had the LG restriction for paladins, that sort of cleave and smite based on race regardless of alignment resulted in falling.
>>48290825
>>48290850
Berserk is just a chore for Miura now. He actually copy/pasted some artwork in the latest issue.
>>48291483
By using it 5 times every arc and each arc is also the monomyth as well as having all arcs use the same setup that ultimately will paint one more monomyth.
Its literall monomyth all the way down, right down to some chapters being a minimonomyth themselves.
>>48290211
>everday
>ever
>>48283686
Caska always wanted Griffith, though. She never stopped wanting him even after she started developing feelings for Guts.
>>48292225
She was ready to give up on Griffith before she saw what the torturer had done to him. She changed her mind more out of pity than genuine love.
>>48292225
Women crave successful men.
>>48281673
What you should've added was "they didn't START that way, but they definitely ended like that"
>>48285302
Umayyads*
More like TN Fighter
NE after he gets hyper-tortured for a year
>>48292563
Griffith was always NE. It just wasn't as obvious at first.
>>48281755
I agree, and I can understand him doing it, in a moment of weakness.
Immediately raping Casca after, and then choosing to make the world an apocalyptic hellscape full of monsters purely so he can be the ruler of the only safe city? That makes him fucking evil.
>>48291600
You seem to be missing the idea behind the monomyth, which is understandable since the monomyth is fucking stupid. The Hero's Journey is so broad, vauge, and all encompassing that you can find a way for literally any story to fit it, which is the point. That same universal applicability makes it completely useless for any form of narrative analysis since it tells you absolutely nothing about the story. If you look for it, you can see the monomyth everywhere, just like paranoids or conspiracy theorists see everything as proof of their beliefs.
It was a very roundabout way of saying that mercenaries are not to be trusted.
>>48280944
Yeah, and a paladin won't A paladin isn't a realistic person, they're an ideal.
>>48292748
What made him evil was choosing the wrong choice in a moment of weakness. Weakness doesn't excuse someone of wrong doing, a person can become a rapist in a moment of weakness and this is an evil act, a person can kill someone in a moment of weakness and this does not make them good. He could have told them to fuck off once he learned the price but instead considered his comrades to be his possessions to do with as he wished and always has. He considered everything right down to the world itself to be pawns in his game, nothing more.
>>48292748
It isn't just that he raped Casca. He raped Casca purely to spite Guts. He had no interest in her outside of using her to hurt Guts.
>>48280505
>all that sunk-cost fallacy
No, he's not a Paladin. No remorse for the fallen? sacrificing OTHERS for HIS dream, and not HIMSELF for the sake of OTHERS? Going straight for the "blood-smeared dream"?
That's not Justice. That's not Goodness. That's not Selflessness.
That's Ambition and Pride.
>>48292838
It's like the modern idea of "well, i tried! And THATS what counts!" Well its not what counts. In the real world thats called failure and dressing it up doesn't change that. You don't "try" and save a girl from a burning fire as a firefighter and be lauded as a hero for trying, you either save her and be celebrated or you don't and be hated by her family. No one is going to hand you a medal for saying "Hey! You were weak and made a weak choice because of that, but we know you at least thought about the strong choice even if it was for a second so heres a medal!"
>>48288899
He's also sending those who serve him to the vortex where the branded are usually sent when they die.
>>48282367
technically the Teutonic knights were not crusaders, they simply justified their wars because it was always against pagans, the pope simply gave them a blessing and recognised that to his interpretation of god, they were justified, he did not call a crusade, otherwise Christians from much further would have heeded the call for salvation and to snatch up pagan lands and spread the name of Christ.
>>48292852
Or you could say he had no interest in the Casca that worshiped him. The independent Casca that leads an army and makes her own decisions and fucks Guts and looks down on Griffith is a different matter.
>>48292941
except, if you ran into the burning building, got severally burned in the process of pulling the girl out, and then the girl still died from smoke inhalation despite your efforts, then it's still seen as a heroic act.
You're failing to differentiate making the strong choice, but not being able to accomplish that goal due to bad luck or physical limitation or whatever, and not making the strong choice.
>>48292225
She most certainly did. Did you miss the subtext of the Guts vs Griffith fight for his right to leave?
>>48293494
Thats entirely different. Griffith sat in the burning building for half a second and decided he'd rather leave the girl to her fate so he could get out alive. A cowards choice.
>>48292941
>You don't "try" and save a girl from a burning fire as a firefighter and be lauded as a hero for trying, you either save her and be celebrated or you don't and be hated by her family
While I agree mostly that example seems a bit off. If the firefighter tried to save the girl and failed the parents would probably be upset their daughter died but indifferent to the firefighter's efforts. Unless he was lazy, incompetent or purposefully trying to fail he was just a guy he did what he could and came up short.
Which is a very different thing from doing what you can to not rape and raping anyway. Training to be a firefighter and saving people from fires is not expected of everyone but it is a noble thing to do. Not sacrificing your comrades and raping your buddy's girlfriend is just kind of expected.
There are varying degrees and circumstances for failure and not all of them are caused by weakness.
>>48293643
If I recall correctly, the only time Griffith was near a burning building with people inside, he set it on on fire himself.
>>48293639
The heart is not binary. She wanted them both. Most of all she didn't want things to change.
>>48293676
And he smiled.
>>48293725
She idolized Griffith. She saw him, ironically, as a god to be worshipped and followed.
She saw Guts as a man. That's why she learned to actually care about him. Why she fell in love with him.
>>48293844
That didn't stop her from being jealous of the princess.
>>48293901
Well, duh. Would you not feel jealous of your idol showering attention on someone else?
I'll say it like this: Casca saw Griffith as a level above her. She saw Guts on as her level.
>>48290515
>The Idea of Evil is still canon
There is nothing to support this. The chapter was cut yes, and go the reason you said, but he could have easily changed his mind about it in the meantime. It's of dubious canon at the absolute best.
>>48293921
>Casca saw Griffith as a level above her
That's the same as Guts saw him
>>48290928
nah, Griffith is Femto just in physical world, he is still just as powerful and shit, just in a "normal" body. Fate is still his bitch and Guts has no chance of winning as of now.
He will have to gain complete control over the armor or let it overtake it, and level up his sword even more to be able to even touch him.
>>48295199
Nah. Griffith has some power but no gravity control or portal shit. It was put in solely to level the playing field.
>>48294664
Nah, by quitting the deal they had ("By some alien logic, I own you now."), Guts became Griffiths equal. He choose to follow his own path.
>>48295335
Didn't Griffith use the portal to trick Skullknight?
>>48285107
Dude, the King threw him in torture for a year for fucking his daughter. That is not the action of a guy who would have said yes.
The Godhand is not omnipotent, but they have a shitload of influence.
>>48293643
I agree, I'm just saying you phrased it rather poorly the first time.
You connected 'trying and failing' with 'giving up and taking the easy choice', which isn't always the case. Trying and failing can also be trying as hard as you possibly can, but still not being able to accomplish what you are trying.
The first is certainly not heroic, but the second is tragic heroism, not cowardice.
>>48293445
They were absolutely crusades, called by several popes. They just weren't as popular or as respected because they were not headed to the Holy Land. And how far away did they need to come from for you to be happy? There were Englishmen in many of those crusades alongside the German knights.
>>48292941
What sort of fucked up country are you from? Because where I'm from, if someone legit gave their all to save someone from a burning building and failed, yes, the family would be sad, but they sure as shit wouldn't hate the guy that risked his fucking life to try.
>>48282057
YOU ARE HUGE! THAT MEANS YOU HAVE HUGE GUTS! RIP AND TEAR!
>>48285107
>If Griffith had been smarter he would have married the princess and made her pregnant with the kings blessing.
Hint: Griffith was having a meltdown because he was in love with Guts (no homo) and Guts left him, so he went and fucked the princess knowing full well that it would fuck everything up because Griffith is actually insane. The king wanting to fuck his daughter was just a retcon.
>>48297365
America. Believe it or not firefighters have been sued for failure. Save one kid but couldn't find the other? Guess who the parents and via media the rest of newyork are angry at and whose gonna get fired.
Hell some lady even threw her kids out the window at firefighters from the 3rd story building and they only caught one out of 3 so when she got off the rescue ladder the first thing she did was start calling a lawyer.
We're not nice to 100% accurate at all times in all subjects and fields police officers or medical personal either.
You succeed or don't bother trying but lord help you if you fuck up.
>>48280881
Come on.
>>48297494
Less than 100%*
>>48297602
I never noticed until now that he has 2 different sized and shaped ears.....
>>48297494
Good samaritan laws
>>48280505
>Plans assassinations of both young and old
>Murders them specifically with fire
>Makes advances on the king's daughter just to get his dick wet with some royal tush
>Is a mercenary i.e. sells his services and kills people not for his ideals or justice, but for money
>Betrays people and gives them a torturous death
>Antagonizes people and rapes one of his most trusted comrade
>Joins up with demons and is chaotic by nature
>Causes nothing but misery to the common folk
>Atheist
Exactly how he is a paladin again?
>>48297656
Not all places have that and some have vastly stricter Duty to Rescue laws that almost require you to die yourself before saying you failed while being an emergency proffesional.
>>48297619
Most people are not symetric. You just don't notice it a whole lot because the brain prefers not to waste energy.
>>48297451
>so he went and fucked the princess knowing full well that it would fuck everything up
Wow, he deserves everything.
To be honest, he didn't expect to be stopped once he hopped that wall. He wanted to reassert his power and fucked up.
>>48297730
Well thats a given but that right ear is smaller by a good inch and flares outwards by at least an inch and a half whereas the other one seems to also be wider by a significant margin and lays almost flat against the skull. Thats almost cartilage damage levels of ear difference.
>>48297671
>Just to get his dick wet with royal tush
did you even read the fucking manga
>>48297790
It could be a makeup effect or just more noticeable because how cropped short his hair is.
>>48297906
Suppose it could just be my OCD.
>>48297451
No, he flipped out and slept with the princess because he made a dumb choice when his boyfriend left him. He didn't know that it would screw everything up.
>>48280505
Paladin of tyranny.
>>48285888
>Giant pile of fire and disease
>Cool as it's ever been
>Statement is still true
Well, things just work out if you set your goals low enough.
>>48290598
You know, there was a time that paladins weren't tied to specific fucking gods and their bullshit tenets of belief.
There used to be a time that paladins were actual fucking good guys.
But that got ruined. First by shitty players, then by shitty writers.
>>48285302
tired of it
ye, I know
but that's it, you've got nothing else
>>48297344
no, they were not recorded as crusades until the 1800s and even if popes after called them such, it was not an officially mandate campaign by the holy see and so was not a crusade. I would like to know if there was anyone of prominence from further out though, not just mercenaries, can you find any names?
>>48283686
>That really pissed me off because it undermined the whole fucking point of it.
What point is there to undermine?
>>48304223
I dunno, that she's been tortured, watched all her friends die, was implied to have been molested by demons and is now being raped in front of the man she loves?
Or how about the fact his evil taint literally turned her unborn son into a demon?
That's kind of the point. It's not hot. It's horrific.
>>48304240
80's anime had women being ripped open from within after being raped by evil demons/aliens. Japs are sociopaths by far and large and since the way we write reflects the way we think, anime reflects that
>>48304265
Yes, and those rape scenes aren't drawn in the way that Casca's was. Compare it to the sex scene with her and Guts.
The angles are very menacing, Femto's clearly inhuman body is always in view, it's intercut with Guts going apeshit, etc
>>48304313
Right. I wouldn't put it past some weirdo director to choose to animate the Eclipse in a more erotic manner and miss the point. Although to be honest it sounds like just another complaint in the shitshow that is the newest adaption
I think the real problem here is that adaptions suck. They'll always remove things that make the original property work as intended
>>48280545
He's intimately familiar with the idea that people aren't inherently selfish. His whole guilt complex is due to all the people that have died believing in him. His crazy is built around doing whatever it takes to make sure they didn't die in vain, even if it means throwing more corpses onto the pile
>>48285107
I kinda think they, or at least Griffith, meant for there to be survivors. His whole rebirth thing wouldn't have happened if Casca didn't make it out
>>48280881
>King Arthur is evil, or that the crusades were immoral
Well...
>>48305335
The difference is Arthur was killing mudslimes, that makes his case inherently just.
Griffith wasn't until last couple volumes.
>>48305354
I mean, I disagree with you there, but I was saying he's immoral by virtue of being a king.
>>48303898
Gregory IX retroactively supported the Livonian Crusade by officially folding the Livonian Sword Brotherhood into the Teutonic Order and then blessing them to continue their holy war.
Direct from Wikipedia regarding the Wendish Crusade:
>The fall of Edessa in 1144 shocked Christendom, causing Pope Eugenius III and St. Bernard of Clairvaux to preach a Second Crusade to reinforce Outremer. While many south Germans volunteered to crusade in the Middle East, the north German Saxons were reluctant. They told Bernard of their desire to campaign against the Slavs at a Reichstag meeting in Frankfurt on 13 March 1147. Approving of the Saxons' plan, pope Eugenius issued a papal bull known as the Divina dispensatione on 13 April; there was to be no difference between the spiritual rewards of the different crusaders. Those who volunteered to crusade against the Slavs were primarily Danes, Saxons, and Poles,[2] although there were also some Bohemians.[3] The German monarchy took no part in the crusade, which was led by Saxon families such as the Ascanians, Wettin, and Schauenburgers.[4] Papal legate Anselm of Havelberg was placed in overall command.
The main ally to the Teutonic Knights was a papal legate, William of Modena. He was on their side through Prussia and Livonia. Through him they received the Pope's blessing to convert the pagans of Prussia, and from their friend Emperor Friedrich II They received permission to conquer the land for themselves. It became a problem when the two rulers clashed and the Emperor was excommunicated (a popular tradition for Holy Roman Emperors).
I had a pretty good Osprey picture of a Teutonic knight with a squire and an English mercenary but I can't find it so here's some of the Order in their natural habitat: failure.
>>48306613
While the Poles and other local groups assisted part of the Prussian crusade, they were secular knights and fucked off for most of the year, leading to the prominence of the Teutonic Order, who had nothing to to with their time but prosecuted Christ's will. Later on they weren't even getting support from secular Germans, who were doing the ol' civil war for the throne bit.
Though not from very far off, King John of Bohemia (1296 - 1346) is an example of a monarch who aided the Northern Crusades, specifically in Samogitia. Later his son-in-law commanded mercenaries to assist the Teutonic Order against Poland, which was Catholic (not a crusade).
I can't find any names but the book I have says in regard to Samogitia
>Many Englishmen came, as did an Orsini duke from Naples and numerous French princes. Although the kings of Poland abstained, Poles from Silesia and Masovia came, as did Bohemians, some Hungarians, and a few Scots. It was indeed an international crusade.
The book is "The Teutonic Knights: A Military History" by William Urban.
And I found the confusion with Lithuania. It wasn't specifically called by the pope, but Pope Alexander IV awarded the crusaders any pagan land they could conquer, so in conjunction with Emperor Freddy's Golden Bull listed above they were just going on old statements. It doesn't seem to change much that part way in they went from fighting "pagans" to "Orthodox Christians." Because they were all non-Catholics and they all had gold and land to reap.
Pictured, Germanic Knights being reaped.
>>48280505
Only valid if you lead from the front and aren't the one planning the strategic parts of the battle.
>Griffith apologists
>>48280505
He'll also whore his ass out to a fat rich old noble for his dream so he's really just a prostitute with with fighter levels.
>guts comes back to save griffith
>first thing griffith does when he greets him is try to strangle him
>>48306789
I concede. thanks for the schooling
>>48294425
The closest thing that supports the canon status of the Idea of Evil is Flora mentioning "something that lurks in the deepest part of the Abyss" or something to that effect, something above the God Hand.
So something similar to the Idea of Evil exists, but there's a good chance that its details, or even its character will be heavily changed, which is probably why Miura had that chapter pulled. It set the world too much in concrete.
>>48308667
Lets not forget that he literally tried to rape casca in the wagon when she went to change his bandages
>>48308667
>>48312985
Someone's actions immediately after being tortured for a year are probably not the best metric of their character.
>>48313265
While that may be true, Griffith was still conscious and observant during the escape and the chase by Wyald. He pretty much saw everything that had changed in the Band of the Hawk during his torture, especially how Guts and Casca acted around each other. It's still evident that he resented Guts for leaving him as well as Casca for going to his 'side' as he saw it during that time.
>>48313322
Yeah, but he was just done with a year of torture. If someone leaving led to me getting tortured for a year, I would be mad at them too, even if I was at fault more than them. People can be illogical like that.
>>48313353
Thing is he was given a vision of the life he could of had if he turned down the god hand.
He would still be a cripple but his friends would be alive and casca would be there to take care of him.
