You must have something similar to this. What is it anon?
For me it's:
>This isn't a video game we're playing, the same logic doesn't apply.
>>48105846
>there's one shared system of videogame logic
Which logic is that?
>>48105846
no anime allowed
>>48105882
Probably clear, consistent rules.
People who say shit like
>this is not a videogame!
are fucking allergic to that shit.
>>48105882
What comes to my mind... Fixed amount of consequences, dumb AI that doesn't care what dialogue options you choose, ability to retcon/load saved game
>>48105846
Read up on the setting, but keep in mind rule 0 takes precedence.Usually I'll make handouts which explain the base game/setting, usually no more than 1 or 2 pages, but I also expect them to do some research of their own
>>48105947
PnP usually has clear, consistent rules, you know.
>>48105951
>he plays Bioware games
Play real roguelikes you casual pleb.
>>48105987
>dragon age:origins is casual pleb
>baldur's gate is casual pleb
>>48105987
Rogulikes are hack'n'slash dungeon crawlers without much to roleplay, no?
>>48106018
they are an excuse for people to feel like they're hardcore, it's bullshit, i play souls games and they are not that hard, i very much prefer bioware games because they are much more interesting
>>48106008
BG was 18 years ago. DA:O was casualshit though. The Skyrim of its time.
>>48105846
>Use a coaster.
>>48106034
this is the most /v/ thing i've ever read on /tg/, do us a favour and go back there
>>48106033
>Dark Souls
>roguelikes
Not even fucking close.
>>48106055
just go back to /v/ you autist, this board is for traditional games, not for arguing how MLG you are
>>48106049
I would prefer if OP went back to /v/ with that idiotic topic of his. Whatever though, enjoy your brown and bloom waifu simulator.
>>48106055
>roguelike
>anything to do with RPGs
The Sims is more of an RPGs than that shit.
>>48106064
I'm just pointing out the fact that roguelikes have, even if they lack a commonly accepted perfect definition, several pretty much universally agreed upon requirements: turn-based combat, grid-based actions, and top-down perspective being some of them.
>>48106073
The Sims is pretty much 100% RPG.
>>48105987
>PnP usually has clear, consistent rules, you know.
There was literally 1 edition of D&D where this was the case and everyone threw a shitfit and called it WoW.
kek, as soon as /v/ is mentioned, it's now the topic.
I would suggest everyone in this thread learn the difference between RPGs, Rogue-likes, Rogue-Lites, action, and adventure games.
Considering Dark Souls a Rouge in any shape or form is incorrect to the meaning of the genre.
Comparing Dragon Age (A traditional RPG in the vain of a d20 system, including system rolls and skill checks) to Skyrim (An action RPG, if you can call it that. It has RPG elements. Just because it has dragons in it, and you can gain levels, doesn't make it an RPG.) is just blatantly uninformed.
>>48106084
But the Sims is an interior decorating game.
>>48106099
>I've tried three editions of D&D so I know what I'm talking about
It's a sad state of affairs, to be sure.
>>48106109
Skyrim has system rolls and skill checks, and you can play different roles.
>>48106109
>kek, as soon as /v/ is mentioned, it's now the topic
This. Give me my thread back.
>>48106109
>rouge
>>48105846
>Repeatedly and consistently derailing or having your character act like a social retard will get you ejected from this game. No, I don't care if "that's what my character would do", because it pisses me off and spoils the game.
Depending on the group I also regularly have to break out...
>Nobody is allowed to play as a Dwarf.
Because almost all players I've had who've played as a dwarf end up breaking the first rule, even though I know they act much less like autists when not playing dwarves.
People playing dwarves very quickly take the stereotypes to extremes and generally piss off everyone around them.
Some examples of dwarven shenanigans in games I've run.
>Smash a barmaid over the head with a bottle, and upon being ejected from the tavern he takes a shit in the town well
>Female dwarf sleeps with male dwarf with explicit purpose of acquiring jewelry, and then promptly murders him when he points out that she is acting like a prostitute, because she does not consider herself a prostitute and thus calling her a prostitute was an insult worthy of death.
>Writes a massive, insulting letter of complaint to the local king claiming his rights as a dwarf are being infringed because a court bailiff won't let him enter a courtroom while carrying a warhammer, a battleaxe, and a musket.
>Runs away from a fight and even barricades his comrades in the boss arena, leaving them to fight the boss, convinced they will die, and then whines to me out of character because he didn't get an equal share of the experience reward when the boss was defeated.
>Pisses off priestess by asking her stupid questions over and over until she calls a guard to drag him out, and then murders the guard claiming "self-defence" as soon as the guard grabs him by the shoulders.
>>48106117
The Sims lets you create and play characters with different and meaningful personality and ability traits that colour their interactions with static objects, NPCs and other PCs alike. They have skills, which can be increased, and which increase their odds of succeeding at certain actions. It's has all the elements of an RPG, it just has more aspects, such as house design. It's not a /traditional game/, however, because unlike vidya like Vampire: the Masquerade, it has no connection to traditional board gaming.
>>48106124
You should have made a better thread if you wanted it to stay on topic.
>>48105846
>anything I tell you, DM to players, OOC is absolutely true
>anything I say your characters perceive is true to the best of your characters ability, but it can be fooled by magic or the like.
>Anything an NPC tells you might or might not be true, even if the NPC in question knows what he or she is talking about, which might or might not be the case.
I open every campaign with a speech to that effect. I still get occasional complaints when NPC lies get believed.
>>48106122
I don't consider murdering everything with your sword to gain exp a good 'cause for levels to then throw into something like Lockpicking. Just because you can be different _COMBAT_ roles (I now want to cast spells! No, wait, armor!) doesn't grant role playing. Choice has very little meaning in the game. Could you give examples of skill checks? Any of them? It's been a while since last I've played it. Maybe I'm being ignorant.
The only form of Role playing in this game is grinding meaningless quests for the different factions. Literally, the only choice that makes any consequence (And thus, I personally would consider role playing), is the war story quest. You destroy the architecture of Whiterun in either one way or another, and cannot revert back. It effects the story for the rest of the quest line, and the world permanently. Can you name any other examples or quests in this game that effect it in such a way?
Meanwhile, Dragon Age- if you start the quests in the town of Redcliffe, and leave, everyone dies. Or, you can ignore everyone in town, leading to high casualties, or work really hard to save everyone, and progress from there. It effects the game world, how others react to you throughout the rest of the game, and even the challenges you'll face moving forward. All without even a morality system, such as Skyrim.
There's your example on why the two games are vastly different.
>>48106170
Good advice, next time I'll make an 'Elf waifu what do?' thread, that way I'm sure my thread will be successful.
I'll take my words back, I don't really mind the thread getting of topic. Discussion is what it's all about.
>>48106187
Pretty good.
>>48106196
True, perks may be put in any skill, but only if you've leveled the skill sufficiently by repeatedly using it. The role playing comes in with the different character creation options, the different combat roles, the different out of combat roles, and the fact that you can pick between different factions, quests, etc. depending on what role you wish to play in the game.
>All without even a morality system, such as Skyrim.
I'm sorry, what?
>>48106099
Thank god there are better games out there that D&D.
>>48106145
I don't know friend, those dwarves sound pretty fun. Do you hate fun?
>>48106199
I like how you admit that was your second choice.
>>48106122
>Skyrim has system rolls and skill checks, and you can play different roles.
skyrim has "shoot bow for low low damage, spray magic for low damage, and just turn down the difficulty this combat is boring as shit and none of it feels like it has any depth or weight"
>>48106227
I like how you say 'admit' like that actually happened.
>>48106218
So, some games tend to use a morality system to help change the way that others see you. It's a cheap way of saying, "Oh, the player has amassed this number of evil points, unlock this option". Mass Effect is a decent example of this. As soon as you hit a certain number in a direction (Renegade for Evil, Paragon for Good), in game characters react differently to you, and it opens dialogue options accordingly.
Skyrim and Dragon Age don't have these systems in place.
Skyrim allows the player to repeatedly steal items, and people will react ("Keep your hands away, sneak thief!").
Dragon Age doesn't have a morality system in place, either. However, when you demand a shop keeper to give away items for free, he charges you higher, and the rest of the town either becomes more prepared for the incoming attack. Meanwhile, you're being charged more for items that you would need.
Now, both Dragon Age and Mass Effect are made by Bioware, so this can be seen as how the two games are vastly different in areas of role-playing. Comparing them to Skyrim, Skyrim is closer to Mass Effect in terms of gameplay and roleplaying.
>>48106162
But who actually plays the Sims how it was meant to be played. Everyone either plays it as a house decorating sim or a torture sim.
>>48106283
Middle school girls, mostly.
>>48105846
I'm in charge. We can have discussions, but the moment you start giving me ultimatums, you are out.
>>48106279
>Now, both Dragon Age and Mass Effect are made by Bioware, so this can be seen as how the two games are vastly different in areas of role-playing. Comparing them to Skyrim, Skyrim is closer to Mass Effect in terms of gameplay and roleplaying.
I never played Mass Effect, admittedly.
>>48106283
I think just about everyone outside of /v/ or /vg/ plays it how it's meant to be played.
>>48106302
>>48106288
Well, nobody I know or ever knew played the Sims the intended way, so I was going off that.
>>48105846
>As GM, my word is final. If I tell you to drop something, drop it.
>If you want your character to be a special snowflake, you're going to have to work for it.
>Hell, if you want your character to have a completely unique skillset or use a brand new class of magic, go for it. You're just going to have to write the skillset, integrate it into the world, make sure it doesn't conflict with the existing skills, balance it, clear it with me, and then I might consider it.
>>48106302
It isn't as bad of a game as other people say it is, although it does drop the illusion of choice towards the end. Same with Dragon Age: Inquisition (especially Liliana. If I murder her in the first game, she shouldn't be alive in the third without some damn good explanation. Which isn't even somewhat given). SO, getting back to OP topic;
The illusion of choice. I want the players to respect that illusion, but damn sure if they want to dick around in town trying to get laid in a bar, rather then getting the McGuffin to kill the BBEG, I will bring down the fury. You can call this railroad-ing, but they were given options on how to proceed. Then, they took it and threw it out the window.
Stop worrying about the mechanics, this is a game of imagination. If your character wants to do something and you do not know how to execute it, just tell me what your character is doing and we'll make it work (Dice Gods willing).Now if only I had a group still to even give this edict to. D:
>>48105846
>People will lie to you. I won't, but i'll leave out information that wouldn't be obvious.
>Tell me how dark I can go. For fuck's sake, don't be afraid to tell me when you get uncomfortable.
>You can give me as many NPCs to play with as you want, but you don't get to be sad when shit goes down.
>>48106109
Math doesnt make something a RPG, role playing does (except in video game land where actual role playing games are incredibly rare so everyone misunderstands everything, which is why the term JRPG even exists)
>>48105846
>That one important thing you want to make absolutely clear to your players before playing
If you want to eat, you have to pay your fair share.
>>48106376
I... I'm unsure if you're adding to the argument on my side, or the other?
JRPGs are another beast entirely, which is why it's a "J" RPG and not a normal RPG. I won't lie, there are some JRPG games that are fantastic. {SOME} They take cues from traditional tabletop games and combine them with the power of a computer, letting it handle all of the math and bloat. If I can plug a JRPG game, I would plug the original Phantasy Star tetralogy. Each character fits a role, and experiences a transition from the beginning to the end, better learning their roles as the story progresses.
>>48106414
Just saying that just cause DAO has skill rolls and all that stuff doesnt make it a RPG
You could make a game with traditional FPS combat, no skill system, thats still ten times the RPG any other already existing video game is
>>48106445
I'm still unsure of what you're trying to say. Could you elaborate further? Also, did you read the entirety of the thread? It's explained in
>>48106196
>This is a team game, work as a group and support the other PCs.
I hate having players who insist on trying to work against the party, or want to constantly do solo stuff
>>48106395
>>not cooking sumptuous feasts for your players pro bono
>>not delighting your groups with culinary experiences beyond their ken
>>not awakening your friends palates to a harmony of flavours they didn't even know possible to immerse them in the Elven feast happening in game
I shiggy diggy doot doot.>>not fattening your players up for the slaughter
>>48106222
Not that Anon, but I'm fairly anti-fun myself.
>coasters
On a more serious note: phones go on silent.
>>48106222
I don't hate fun, but it's not fun for me to have to put up with players who act like they've forgotten all the rules regarding interpersonal interaction
It's always one dwarf (the player character) who acts like that when all the other dwarves are mostly reasonable people. They're not even playing a stereotype, they're playing an exaggeration of a stereotype.
For instance...
In Warhammer Fantasy dwarves are known to hold grudges which they seek vengeance for. These grudges require some sort of wrong doing on the behalf of target of the grudge. When I ran WFRP2, the dwarf player kept his own little grudgebook, and he insisted on trying to kill every person on it. Problem is, 9/10 of the people on the list were random people, like the shopkeeper who refused to lower his prices, the bailiff who wouldn't let him bring a loaded blunderbuss into the courtroom, the Innkeeper who asked him to leave the Inn after he smashed the barmaid over the head because he was bored and hoping to start a fight. He insisted that he was just 'acting like a dwarf' and refused to listen whenever I repeatedly told him that dwarfs do not start grudges every time someone slightly inconveniences them, nor do they seek to kill these people.
I don't hate fun, I hate people who act like retards and amuse themselves by pissing me off, especially after I've explained why their behavior is inappropriate and I've asked them to stop.
>>48106471
I want to have sex with those meals
>>48106395
Not even then. There's always some dickbag who will eat half a pizza but pay for 1/5th of it. Then if you confront them they say some shit along the lines of "i haven't eaten all day." Or "i helped pay i should get to eat as much as i want."
No. You pay 1/4 of the price you get 1/4 of the pizza end of discussion. That doesn't mean you can scarf down a family size bag of chips that was meant for everyone either to somehow make up the difference you feel you're being snuffed on.
>>48106138
>rouge
It's obviously a typo. He spelled it right twice before that.
>>48106465
>>This is a team game, work as a group and support the other PCs.
It's like you don't play Paranoia. Or VtM.
>>48106504
Literally just don't even split food, dude. Force people to contribute things for common consumption, and just cycle the obligations. If someone isn't going to eat food very fast, motherfucker needs to buy some rank shit that no one else wants.
That's just how it is.
>>48106544
>Or VtM.
Is it poor etiquette to surreptitiously blood bond all of the other player characters? I'm very tempted.
>>48106504
There's no need to be anal about exactly how much somebody's money buys them in each individual case, so long as they aren't grossly inconsiderate (eating up all the food that other people wanted) and contribute a roughly fair share over the long haul. People who are uptight about money are unpleasant to be around and I'm not gonna pick a fight with a friend over a few bucks.
>>48106516
This is the fucking Internet, mate. You can't let that fly, or else the whole place is going to go to hell!
>>48106479
You, every table needs more of you.
>>48106548
except it doesn't have to be, you endless pit of gluttony.
How we do it: if we order food, everyone pays for their own fucking food. If someone wants to cook, they can use the ingredients at the house we're at, without having to pay for it BUT ONLY if they're willing to cook for everyone who wants to eat. If nobody wants to order food, then the host player is required to cook for everyone unless someone else volunteers.
>>48106465
>I hate having players who insist on trying to work against the party, or want to constantly do solo stuff
Yeah. My starting spiel is now something like "This is a game about a group of adventurers working to common purpose. If your character doesn't constructively contribute to this group and their purpose, is unwilling to compromise, wants to go off on his own, or actually seeks to oppose the group or attack another character in it, it's time for you to make up a new character. This is a team sport. If you don't want to be on the team, you don't get to play the game. Simple as that."
>>48105882
That world and interaction has limitations.
>>48106569
I don't mind someone being only moderately off ratio to input as thats expected. I just hate asshats that think it's a one price fits all all you can eat buffet when everyone else wants to at least taste the food.
We got 3 bags of chips? Cool let everyone get some don't babysit the bag with your fist in its anus 24/7.
Someone brought soda? Cool grab a glass not a whole 2 liter.
I make burgers? Cool i made like 8 for the 4 of us don't grab 5.
I don't mind someone eating more chips than the others but taking ALL the doritos is a dick move when we only got one bag. I don't care if you know you can eat that whole bag by the end of the night you fat fuck or if you say thats all you'll eat, if people want some fucking share.
>>48106591
Nah fuck that shit. I'm a cook by trade and i enjoy making shit for me and mine using the best shit i can get. If i'm hosting i'm not going to use up $175 dollars of my supplies to feed people who don't want to feed themselves and i sure as hell ain't letting them touch my kitchen.
>>48106643
Yeah, I agree with that. Fortunately my group usually has a magnificent asshole who will sarcastically and relentlessly mock somebody if they pull shit like that.
Old People in my setting that arent important always have retard Video Game NPC dialogue
>>48106700
this is good.
>>48106700
Like "I like shorts! They're comfy and easy to wear!" over and over again or what?
>>48105846
"Your actions have consequences, good or bad."
For Fallout:
"Combat is not your friend and doctors are not cheap."
For DnD:
"PHB classes only. No chaotic neutral or evil except for lawful evil characters."
>>48105882
There is always at least one preprogrammed solution to every problem or enemy you encounter.
If an object is included, it is useful or usable in some way.
You can always loot eveything.
You can pause the game and brainstorm a strategy I'm the middle of battle.
>>48106725
"GIT. OFF. MY. LAWN!"
>pulls out Wand of Buckshot
>>48106049
People always want to talk about /v/ on /tg/ because /tg/ has such great taste in games.
>>48106783
That last one is nonsensical.
There are so many fucking different interpretations of alignments that this shit is nonsense. I'm playing an wizard that I suspect is some sort of evil (we don't use alignments, because they're fucking worthless), as I intend to turn the tables on some demon that has latched onto my soul, stealing its powers for myself, for the express purpose of making me king or something, raising my status in my home land.
Doesn't mean I don't also want to take actions that help people, like dealing with the lich that has taken it upon himself to not only try to conquer the land with undead, but also fuck with us directly. But my motivations have nothing to do with helping people.
To try and define a character by using a 9 pointed chart is just ridiculous, and to further restrict that chart by removing the point that is usually interpreted as "I care about myself, my family, and my friends above all else" is equally silly.
>>48106725
HAVE YOU HEARD OF THE HIGH ELVES?
>>48106784
>There is always at least one preprogrammed solution to every problem or enemy you encounter.
Only if running away counts as a solution.
>If an object is included, it is useful or usable in some way.
Tons of games have worthless items, for flavour, comedy, remnants of unimplemented features, bugs, references, and a bunch of other reasons.
>You can always loot eveything
This is just patently untrue.
>You can pause the game and brainstorm a strategy I'm the middle of battle.
Not in online games.
>>48106790
I only need about tree fiddy.
>>48106885
GOT. DAMN. LOCKNISS. MONSTA!
>>48106871
The first one is absolutely true, it's specifically how games are designed.
The other three points, however, just aren't. But again, that first one is very, very solid, you shouldn't be trying to undermine it.
>>48106871
>Not in online games.
Or Dark Souls
Or fighting games, unless you want the other guy to punch you in the face.
>>48106918
Not in roguelikes. They rely on the procedural generation, so sometimes you run into an enemy or a problem which has no real answer. RNG said fuck you, so I guess you start a new run.
>>48106783
>PHB classes only
If by D&D you mean 3E, you're a monster. If 4th or 5th addition, then carry on with your day, good sir.
>>48106918
Yeah, I started with just the first one, then snowballed the others.
>>48106871
They are examples of "video game logic", not universal laws found in all vidya ever.
You autist.
>>48105846
>I'm not gonna roleplay sex with you.
>>48107024
Well that's just rude. I'm putting in serious effort here and you're just giving me coldfish.
>>48107016
Name 1 game where you can literally loot everything.
>>48107133
Minecraft.
>>48107133
Minecraft, Starbound, Terraria
>>48106041
That was a good thread.
>>48106222
If you're having trouble fighting something maybe hire some fucking NPCs to help you instead if hoarding all that fucking money you get.
You can run away
If you fire every rapist guard soon you will have no guards and the elves will escape
If they were not fkawed people they wouldn't work as a guard on a plantation.
>>48106854
Okay, addendum: Chaotic neutral, neutral evil, and chaotic evil characters must have a convincing written background to be played. My experiences on roll20 tell me that those alignments are almost always an attempt to preemptively excuse murderhobos and generally antagonistic roleplay. I don't care for it. At least the others can make for a cohesive group.
>>48107001
4e. And thank you; you also.
>>48107182
>rapist gaurds
>elves working a plantation
What the fuck is your group up to?
>>48107016
So no logic that can be found in vidya is allowed? Because that doesn't leave a lot of logic to be featured in OPs games.
>>48107182
>If you fire every rapist guard soon you will have no guards and the elves will escape
anon.
tell me about your session.
>>48105846
>Actions have consequences
You have no idea how often I've heard that my ruling "messed up my build". Fuck you. You do stupid, risky things there are consequences.
>>48107351
>>48107372
Also this.
>>48106548
My group contributes to get pizza, and even the three of us who would go higher wild can constrain ourselves so that everyone gets the same amount. Then leftovers are free for anyone
>>48108906
>Hog wild
Autocorrect is a bitch
>>48106008
>dragon age:origins is casual pleb
All of the Dragon Age games are casual pleb 90 hour movies with gameplay fucking extra and you know it.
>>48105846
Because I run OSR games, don't get too attached to yourcharacters, but have fun.
>>48106578
Better than Pride, faggot
>>48111530
that was pretty clearly wrath, fucktard.
now you've committed both gluttony and sloth, for the mere fact that you didn't exercise the minimal amount of effort necessary to think through your fucking post.
>>48111558
You're just jealous, m8
>>48111981
strike three, you've committed double sloth since you could have accused me of envy instead.
>>48105846
I've never run on online group yet, but should I do so I intend to come prepared.
During worldbuilding/character creation, I'd spitball a situation relying on some unclear rules to gauge expectations (and reactions) to rules-lawyering. I'd have the final say, obviously, but I think bringing up an obscure, unclear rule early on would help ensure we stay on the same page early.
>>48105959
>Not letting players learn about their surroundings and setting in game to get them more immersed in the world.
>>48115533
This only makes sense if the players are outlanders from far away.Or the kids from the D&D animated series
>>48115585
True, I tend to start my players characters like they just came into a new place.
>>48107371
Not all logic found in vidya is video game logic.
Stop being obtuse.
Is it deliberate?
>>48106122
>you can play different roles
"Do you want to play a fighter with spells or a wizard with swords?"
Such variety! I really don't know what to choose!
>>48105846
If you come up with a good idea I'm not going to shit on it.
>>48106073
>>48106064
Are you seriously trying to say that Dark Souls is a roguelike? A genre defined by permadeath and random generation?
>>48106871
If you want to be really picky, even if those rules were all true, most of them also apply to pen and paper games
If the GM introduces an obstacle (that is meant to be beatable), then chances are he envisaged at least ONE potential solution
If the GM specifically introduces an object, it's probably got some purpose or use
Everything that could potentially be looted CAN be looted
And unless you take IC/OOC separately really seriously, chances are players will occasionally 'pause' the battle to think
>>48105846
>Don't interrupt me, if you have complaints or observations we'll take some time after the game to discuss about it.
>Now pay attention, I'm gonna explain you the rules to make sure you all know how this works. Once I've explained them, feel free to ask about anything you haven't understood.
>>48106376
By this logic any game in existence is a RPG.
>>48106465
>tfw when your DM insist that each player will go solo
>>48105846
If I say something works a particular way, feel free to bring out the book.
But also know that I am similarly allowed to say that the book is retarded in a particular circumstance and we won't be using its ruling.
Especially when we run crunch-heavy games or Dungeons and Dragons.
>>48106395
>playing with people who aren't close friends
>>48116093
>If the GM introduces an obstacle (that is meant to be beatable)
That's an important qualifier you added.
>If the GM specifically introduces an object, it's probably got some purpose or use
Unless he mentions something in the room just to describe it and then the players spend 20 minutes attempting to unravel "the mystery of the bowl of fruit" or poking a spot of regular mold in a corner of a damp dungeon with a ten foot pole before killing it with fire magic.
>Everything that could potentially be looted CAN be looted
Not everything fits in a bag of holding, but you got a point.
>And unless you take IC/OOC separately really seriously, chances are players will occasionally 'pause' the battle to think
Sure, if you want to stop the game.
>>48106374
Could you explain the last one further? That just seems to imply
>"So your character has a family you say? It would be a shame if something were to happen to them..."
>Regardless of game, the ultimate goal is to walk away with an interesting story. Try to stay in character and avoid metagaming, and avoid over-optimizing to the point of playing a robot.
>>48105882
The biggest thing I can think of is that the tabletop game has no unwinable state. In a video game, you can pretty much do whatever you want, and as long as you don't die, you can still "win" the game and come out with a happy ending. In tabletop, not all situations have a positive solution to them, and dying doesn't allow the game to restart -- you roll another character and continue from there.
It's important, because sometimes you'll get a guy who does all sorts of stupid things to test you (Jumping into pits he can't see the bottom of, starting fights with the town guard right out of the gate and expecting to take them all on), and you either allow him to succeed or kill him on the spot and move on. One of the greatest things about tabletop is that actions have consequences, unlike in a video game where you either bang your head against a wall and accomplish nothing or move the story forward.
>>48106355
So could I fuck a monster to death? Or seduce it with my penis enough so it doesn't want to fight anymore?
>>48106187
This is important to state. I usually have players roll dice every action or state I'm rolling a reflexive check for things even if it has no affect, because dice rolling signifies a check was made and the result may or may not be what's being told to you.
>>48117708
I had a hard time explaining to one of my players once that just because you have a relatively high bluff/diplomacy/intimidate skill, doesn't mean you are able to mind control people. Your action has to at least seem plausible or make a certain amount of sense before a character considers it.
One guy tried to stick his wiener in a Kraken before, convinced because he had good physical scores he could rape it to death. He even had the gall to complain when he found out his target's physical scores were ludicrously higher than his because he couldn't understand that his character sheet and base stats were designed for a human, not a mythical beast.
Or the more mundane time when one guy had 5 dots in Animal Kin in WoD and tried to use it to control wild bees like they were a dog.
>>48106395
I usually provide a few boxes of pizza the first night for a group, and set up a cup for covering the cost of food. Except I usually don't tell anyone the cup will be used for next session's food bill, so when I have $3 in there at the end of the night, everyone gets $3 (plus another 1/X, I match the average donation of every other player) worth of food next session. After that, people either start bringing their own stuff or contributing more.
>>48117819
Or the more mundane time when one guy had 5 dots in Animal Kin in WoD and tried to use it to control wild bees like they were a dog.
One of your PCs tried to make The Candy Man, and you pooped all over his fun.
>>48117819
I'm not talking kraken or absurdly large creatures. I mean like a goblin or an undead creature. Let me rattle a skeleton with my dick. Maybe even use bolas to take down a centaur or something that's a fraction larger than me. At most, I'd try to ravage a dragon's ass/cloaca with a mace
>>48106784
none of those things are true across all video games.
Those are just considered good game design.
Which is also sort of true in pen and papers, but the people there are not extensively trained in game design, being hobbyists.
>>48117874He finally got it in the end, since he really wanted to do a character that could do that, he eventually gained an ESP like ability to do it.
SPEND EVERYONE ELSE'S FUCKING TURN PLANNING YOUR FUCKING TURN.
I'm seriously inches away from putting a timer in place to stop this shit. It's fine if what happened just before your turn fucked your plan up but I swear 90% of the folks I've played with don't even start thinking about what they're going to do until the GM says their name.
Optionally
>You have to participate. If you're uncomfortable around this new group of strangers that's completely understandable, but if after a few sessions you're still barely apeaking or interacting with anyone you might as well not play. This is a highly social activity you gotta try and get used to if you want to have any fun with it.
God damn, I used to think I was really shy before I started playing tabletop.
>>48117942
>none of those things are true across all video games.
Again, they don't have to be.
That are examples of "video game logic" not universal laws found in all video games everywhere.
It's like Chinese food: I can mention a few dishes of Chinese food but that doesn't mean that they're on all Chinese restaurant menus everywhere.
>Those are just considered good game design.
>Which is also sort of true in pen and papers, but the people there are not extensively trained in game design, being hobbyists
I also want to point out that this comes across as a very videogame-centric view. Pen and paper games have more freedom than video games.
Design elements that are necessary and good for video games are artificial and restricting for pen and paper. Just because pen and paper does not include things that video games should include does not mean that they are inferior or the results of hobbyists that don't understand game design.
>>48117937
Why do you want to kill monsters with your benis? Isn't the interspecies sex good enough?
>>48106084
>several pretty much universally agreed upon requirements turn-based combat, grid-based actions, and top-down perspective being some of them.
Who exactly agreed on those requirements? Because those are not what everything I know about the genre agrees on.
>tell me what you're doing, not what you're rolling, i will tell you if, when and what you need to roll based on your actions
Rookies to the table who have had really gamey GMs are kind of frustrating sometimes.
>>48118493
If it doesn't have all of those, it's not a roguelike, because it's not like Rogue.
It's a roguelite, because it's like roguelikes, but not like Rogue.
Get fucked, casual.
>>48118493
The game Rogue, probably.
>>48117708
>So could I fuck a monster to death? Or seduce it with my penis enough so it doesn't want to fight anymore?
You can try. You are unlikely to succeed but I won't stop your attempts.
>>48118206
Nah, things like "make sure shit is useful/has narrative value" is sort of true across all media.
>>48118468
It's more than just killing them with my penis, it's about sex so incredible it causes them to die from heart failure
>>48105846
Don't start an arm's race with the GM.
I don't care how big it makes your dick feel, it always ends in tears and broken campaigns.
>>48105846
"You are entitled to nothing."
>>48106471
cant afford to.
I try to get healthy snacks and I'll bring in nice stuff, like a poor mans charcuterie board.
>>48106594
this.
>>48106049
Dragon Age and all modren bioware games are horrible fucking RPGS. They're filled with bad writing, lack of player interaction and graphics from 10 years ago.
>>48119229
I thought most of /tg/ liked DA:O but hey. Guess this isnt a faceless mob with the same opinion.
>>48106594
How boring you are.
You don't just tell them no. You have to make them regret their actions.
>>48118558
>Nah, things like "make sure shit is useful/has narrative value" is sort of true across all media.
Nah, you’re an idiot.
Taking “useful or usable” in a game to mean "has narrative value” is argumentative bullshit.
A detailed description has "has narrative value”, but that doesn’t mean a description of the drapes to set the scene is “making sure shit is useful”.
Listen, a video game is visual and can include a lot of visuals that set the scene but aren’t “objects that can be used or manipulated in a meaningful way.”
A pen and paper game is dependent on the GM describing the scene, so the GM balances between mentioning enough details to set the scene and include the important items, but not dump a heap of pointless description on the party.
If a GM mentions a bucket in the guard’s office, the player assuming that the bucket is somehow going to be plot or puzzle important and they *need* to take it with them because “every object is useful or usable”, then that is “video game logic”.
In a video game, you go to trouble of modeling and coding a gun, you make sure there is a reason to include it.
Chekov’s Gun does not necessarily apply to PnP games.
>I'm gonna fuck with you. I'm gonna fuck with you constantly.
>>48119406
>boo hoo, my delicate narrative style doesn't hold up to the standards of all other media
It's not video game logic, anon, pretty much all fiction holds to this.
>>48107182
I, too, badly need to know.
>>48106784
but that last one is more true of tabletops than videogames.
So is the third.
These are your characters. They can be described using simple words, but people are not simple. Just because you're good doesn't mean you always do the goodest thing you can think of no matter what. Just because you're evil doesn't mean you rape and kill everyone on sight. Try to act like people.
>>48107189
What if I tell you that my Chaotic Neutral character runs off of a personal code that consists entirely of, "Don't die," and, "Don't let people you care about come to harm, regardless of reason or consequence," and that I'll stick to that, and follow local laws until they start getting in the way of that?
Because, for my money, that's what Chaotic Neutral means.
>>48118549
GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME
OP's got a good point, though. I see a lot of people come into the LGS expecting to play by the same Tank, Healer, DPS mentality that comes with a lot of video games. But tabletop gaming in general doesn't follow those conventions. I've had some of the most fun I've ever had with characters that go against the idea that the healer can't be heavily armored, or that the wizard can't swing a sword worth a damn, or that a big beefy warrior needs to have a sword and get up in people's faces.
Tabletop gaming has its own set of rules, and once you learn what you can and can't do within them, you can have a hell of a time.
>>48119569
>boo hoo, my delicate narrative style doesn't hold up to the standards of all other media
Even for an obvious troll, your attempts are sad and pathetic
>It's not video game logic, anon, pretty much all fiction holds to this.
First, I specifically referred to an element found in only interactive media, so you’re even more of an idiot.
Secondly, you are asserting that ‘If a GM mentions a [x], the player assuming that the [x] is somehow going to be plot or puzzle important and they *need* to take it with them because “every object is useful or usable”’ is a concept held in all fiction?
Nah, you’re an idiot.
The concept of only including what is needed and cutting filler is prevalent in pretty much all fiction, but that is not what is being discussed.
What is being discussed is the player mentality that if presented with a physical object, that object must serve a purpose relevant to the game.
I could explain it further, but I already have and you seem to be failing at understanding basic concepts.
I’ll try smaller sentences:
You are an idiot.
Stop posting.
>48119651
>but that last one is more true of tabletops than videogames.
>So is the third.
See >>48117550
But yeah you're right, they were not as solid as my first two examples.
>>48107182
>If you fire every rapist guard soon you will have no guards and the elves will escape
>>48105846
>I am not going to even try to remember every one of your abilities. If you want to use your special powers/magic/whatever, it's on you to remember when and how to use it. I have the machinery of this entire universe in my mind, I have no more room for your stuff too.
Generally I'm lenient enough if someone speaks up quickly enough (like...ten seconds max) after an event that they could have used their Special Power to change it, I'll allow it, but if your character gets knocked unconscious and then two other player's turns later you remember your Automatic-No-Unconscious-Spell thing, too bad so sad.
Also
>I will lie to your face, in character and sometimes out too. It's not personal. You don't know everything about this world and neither do your characters. Sorry. Deal with it.
And
>If you have a good idea or a cool concept for an evolution of your character, you're welcome to give it a shot. I will do my best to allow you the in-game resources to do so if you seek them out.
One of my players is a bard and wanted to weaponize his lyre so he could inspire AND kill with it. He had to find a master woodcarver and blacksmith, pay them a shit ton of money to take his crazy-ass commission, work together to create this device, and spend enough time testing and re-making it so it won't just shatter in his hands. It took six levels and like a year of in-game time.
>>48119942
>Bard takes time and money and a lot of commitment to make an awesome weapon
This is how the best things in a campaign are made, by the players, and I love that shit. I wish I could encourage my characters to think like that more often.
>>48119935
Buddy, I get it, you get upset when someone calls your work amateurish because you like to waste everyone's time.
You don't have to make up all those excuses.
>>48119988
Yeah, it kicks ass for him too. The player ended up actually drawing out design specs for me to see how he wanted it to look and everything. I was more than willing to let him try for it, and I obviously wanted him to succeed at his cool idea so I threw a little help his way with the artisans.
>"I'm not going to stop most of the things you try to do.
>"You want to try to seduce your enemies into submission and build a monster harem? Fine.
>"Try to play an anime character, regardless of how well it actually it works? Go for it.
>Pay someone to weaponize a thing that's not actually a weapon, or combine two weapons into one? Sounds neat.
>"Try to steal from the rest of the party? What do I care if you want to potentially throw your character away dependent on the result of a die roll?
>"There will always be consequences for whatever you try to do, and they will be enforced, but whatever you want to try, you can, and, about 90% of the time, I won't stop you. I may try to warn you that they're bad ideas, I may even remind you of the consequences, but I won't try to stop you.
>"If I do try to stop you, though, for the love of whatever power you do or don't believe in, stop. I am permissive to a fault, but if you cross a line, you will get one chance to stop when I ask you to, after which I will tell you, politely, to leave."
>>48107133
Basically every RPG or adventure game. If you can pick it up (it's not just part of the background), you can loot it, and if this is a puzzle or adventure game you're probably going to need it later.
Tabletop just means that there are no objects that are just "part of the map"; every stone in the floor can be interacted with and probably pried up if you really try.
>>48120008
>Buddy, I get it, you get upset when someone calls your work amateurish because you like to waste everyone's time.
>You don't have to make up all those excuses.
Upset over your made up nonsense?
Ah, I've seen this routine. Is that what we're doing now? Okay fine.
Give me back my jacket!
I said you could borrow it, not keep it.
GIVE ME BACK MY JACKET!!
>*anon returns to his car and locks his door*
>>48106677
You I like you
>>48119789
You are too based to be playing a system with alignments.
Except maybe AtB
>You're going to run into some things you can't kill, don't fucking basic attack every turn and complain when a hydra kills your level 3 retard fighter
>That one important thing you want to make absolutely clear to your players before playing
"I am a shit DM/Player. Please have patience with me and forgive my semi-blatant jaunts into the magical realm."
>>48105846
I open all my campaigns nowadays with two absolute declarations:
>No rape
and
>No Monty Python jokes
If you think you have a legitimate objection to either of those rules, you are not welcome at my table. It is not a judgment of your character necessarily, but if you have an issue either in principle or in practice with either of those declarations, you and I will not get along and you will not have a good time. I ask these people to leave.
That aside, my big general premise is:
>I'm not here to help you live out your psychopathic fantasy of violence, sex, and power. Please go elsewhere for that, or play modded Skyrim.
>>48106339
Did you do the dragon age keep thing?
If you didn't then it'll give you the default world state which is really shit
>>48121369
Why no monty python jokes?
I see we couldnt play together, but thats cool. Why ban the jokes? Bad experiance with a shitty player? Or just find that bad players and a love for monty python overlap?
>>48105846
For me:
>"I'm not here to help you better get to know yourself or come to terms with your identity. I'm not running games about gender identity politics or sexual orientation politics."
Of all the people I've gamed with who were LGBT, most of them were autistic enough to do this stuff. I'm happy I got a great transdude friend out of it who totally agrees that he doesn't want to deal with this bullshit when he wants to play someone who hunts vampires; shame his friends didn't think this was viable.
It crops up as an issue more often than not.
Failing that:
"I'm not going to hold you to acting like characters within the universe, but some NPCs might. This can be funny or this can fuck you up, so consider your puns wisely. Chris is not allowed to make puns."
>>48122075
I had a player play a druid. And when he couldnt persuade dogs to reliquish their masters secrets. He tried to seduce the info out of them. Even after i said. These dogs cant communicate that info.
Furrys. Not even once.
We stopped playing a while back. Now its a she and unemployed and suicidal. So i dodged a bullet by kicking it out sooner rather than later
>>48121369
>>48122036
Not him, but it might have something to do with how utterly obnoxious it is to have people continuosly reciting lines from Holy Grail. Don't get me wrong, I love me some good Python, but it is incredibly grating when it gets brought up every five seconds by some moron who thinks s/he's being funny.
>>48118102
I prefer players not planning their turns and simply skipping them if they take too long. It's more realistic that way.
>>48105846
Actions Have Consequences
>>48105846
You know me. I know you. Let's try to have fun, give feedback if there's something you don't enjoy.
>>48122165
Seconding this. I've had too many people try to use Monty Python quotes as a substitute for humor.
>>48122196
How so? You should ALWAYS plan shit ahead of time, realistically speaking. Especially when it comes to fighting in groups.
>>48107372
>>48107351
>>48119939
We're essentially playing American slave trade the elf version. The original was in pathfinder but it made the wrong parts of the game too complicated so I'm homebrewing it into its own system.
Basically the players are all second sons of nobles, each is alloted an estate in not America to make something of. This involves managing the estate, managing slaves, repelling tribal raids, making sure the pile of elf corpses stays firmly dead etc etc. There's also a lot of social play attending parties, duelling, making alliances in between dallying out to deal with problems for people.
The whole setting is designed to be cast in shades of grey, yeah it's evil to keep slaves but at the same time it's the only way to compete, stay economically solvent and feed your family. Sure you can solve a lot of problems with magic but if the church ever finds out they'll burn you and everything you ever touched to the ground. Characters are generally pretty flawed, so sure that guard might be raping the slaves but he's also a single dad and loving father who can't risk going out to work in the dangerous wilds.
The result is situations where a player casually locks the captured native goatmen in a stable along with the sick elves, then forgets about them because of an impending duel against a duellist they can't beat fairly. Sneaks in and spikes the duellists drinks with laxatives, goes to fight and wins by no show, ruining the duellists reputation. He then makes the long trip home, remembers the goatmen were locked in, rushes home to find them all dying from typhoid surrounded by shit because they hired a lazy ass overseer. The player then gets mad because their stable is covered in shit, vomit and corpses.
>>48105846
Things have consequence.
Don't expect to punch random guy in the city and then just walk away like nothing happened.
Fucking barbarian.
>> 48106321
This
>>48120044
and especially this personify by GMing style.
I tend to be very permissive with character generationNo kender samurai
>>48121369
>No rape
I was beginning to think I was the only one.
>No Monty Python jokes
I feel you. But that hasn’t needed to be an explicit rule in quite some time for me.
>>48105846
>Rape = no
>I don’t ERP, I fade to black.
>We are all here to enjoy ourselves, act like it.
>Your fun does not trump anyone else's.
>Respect everyone.
>We arrive at the scheduled time, relax and say hello for a few minutes and then start.
>If you do not show up to a game, your character goes on autopilot as an npc.
>Remember rule zero.
>The issue of food is to be addressed before the session.
>Disagreements are to be addressed after the session.
>If I was wrong in a ruling, I will make up for it next session.
>>48106299
More GMs should implement this rule.
>>48119789
That's not what I would consider a complete basic character background, but on the other hand "obey the law until it gets in the way of your desires or needs" sounds like neutral to me. I read chaotic neutral as having zero regard for law and order but being very concerned with the wellbeing of yourself and those you care about. The sole good example of this that I've encountered was Sarah's character in Nerd Poker during Blaine's campaign. In a nutshell, she stole from the rich to provide for her friends and family. Come to think of it, that was about the only good thing about Blaine's campaign.
>>48106283
There are some more ways to play Sims. Have you heard of the kinky world mod?
Also, sims medieval was pretty sweet. You'd get an awesome fairy tale feeling out of it, and dueling your king to the death was pretty nice too
>>48105846
>If you whine about the lack of combat I am kicking you from the game immediately. You should know from the campaign description, the discussion I had with you all about the nature of this game as a genuine sandbox, and the multitude of individual conversations I've had with you about making a character who is more than a murderhobo.
They still do it, every fucking time.
>>48123976
Captain Jack Sparrow is a good example of Chaotic Neutral, fyi
>>48105846
I will not punish bad luck, i will punish stupid.
I tell you when to roll dice.
>>48122036
This guy got it : >>48122165
I have had the entire Monty Python and the Holy Grail film re-enacted from me entirely through nerd quotes six times.
Monty Python jokes are funny because they're unexpected. They're not unexpected when you've heard it so many times. I've had way too many players who literally won't shut up and always find a moment to reference something from MP.
My idea was that if you have an objection to that statement, you have some weird compulsion to make lolrandom humor, and so I have no interest in playing with you.
It's similar to the rape rule. If you want to honestly advocate for rape being included in the game, you're either looking to play a rapist or you're looking for some grimdark "historically accurate" game. Basically, if you're offended that I don't have rape in my games, I have no interest in playing with you.If you can make me an honest argument for either of those conditions that isn't "because I want to", I'd love to hear it, honestly.
>>48126959
If i rape her it paints me irrevocably as the baddest bad guy. Use the hate against me correctly as a good DM and it can pump a lot of life into the RP of the game just between me and you(as the npc's) alone let alone what kind of treasure trove of doors it just opened between me and the players. I've basically thrown the keys to an entire kingdom at you. Obviously this only works on key areas such as your competency as a storyteller, the players abilities in general, and it's relative infrequency of use.
Are you against real torture as well? Cause that can have a similar kind of impact rather than just fading to black and saying it was rough for the victim.
>>48105846
Our GM insists on
No videogame logic
Game rules is more like game engine, not a god
Players are free to make their own homerules / gears / skills if it will be reasonable and fitting the game lore.
>player who is huge fan of Bioware / Bethesda stuff ignores the first rule
>keeps acting like every single character including other PCs are videogame NPCs
>every "social" situation is a mess. Even simple IC talk with him turns really weird, creepy or stupid, no matter what. Feels like bugged NPC picking wrong pre-written lines.
>don't know why he's still in group
>>48127206
I've got other ways to make players hate bad guys. If anything, rape feels like an easy way out, because rape is Always Evil, so they're automatically bad. It's lazy writing, and I'd level that criticism against any work that uses rape to establish a bad guy. Rape doesn't make the story more interesting or yield any more results than anything else, and it has the added downside of making people really uncomfortable, especially the women at my table.
I actually feel similarly about torture, but that's because I've had some players get REALLY into torture, with mixed results (as torture often yields).
>>48128208
How do you feel about the reference of rape/torture within you game?
Eg/ NPC being known or rumored to be a rapist. (obviously not in a way that may threaten player characters because that would be a little too uncomfortable). I know for me, that would be enough to hate that NPC. Just curious on yours and others thoughts.
>>48128208
It makes it more interesting using the view people have on it. If a BBEG rapes someone that usually makes the people vastly more invested in stopping them as they're suddenly "eviler" than before. It's one of the few things we'll psychologically latch onto outright regardless of medium. You ever see the girl with the dragon tattoo? Watch the non-english version as its better but see how rape changes the narrative through depiction. Reading it would be better though.
Discounting something just because you find it distasteful is a terrible habit.
>>48105846
>Making characters with reasons to actually work together towards a common goal makes my job much easier, and the game much more enjoyable.
>>48128999
I do that offhand as standard procedure for groups.
You guys get together outside of the game, if its an established group, as a team to make characters that work together. If you want i'll join in and help but i prefer the surprise.
If you do this small favor for me i promise not to be like every other DM and use your family and friends as BBEG fodder.
If they just met i will dedicate a large portion of the first session if not the entire time to helping them with proper chargen. This also lets me feel them out.
It's the easiest way to keep everyone, including me, invested.
>>48128698
I've seen it. Like I said, it's not my discomfort with the topic, it's other people's that motivates the decision. And also like I said, I don't like using it as a tool because I think there are better, more nuanced tools. It feels lazy.
This is besides that I don't like making utterly evil villains, I like having an antagonist that isn't opposed because they're the bad guy, but because they're opposed to the ends of the party.
>>48128657
I rarely use it, if at all. I may highlight that an NPC is thought of as cruel, or maybe even sadistic, but painting them as a rapist or torturer explicitly feels cheap, as if to add aspects to a setting that are, well, grimdark. It strikes me as putting in evil for the sake of evil.
And again, this isn't to make an absolute judgment of these qualities for all game settings, it's the way that I wish to run it. Why should I include the things that I don't like in a game? Should I similarly exclude things that I like? That seems nonsensical, especially if it's something that I don't think has merit.
>>48105846
No fun allowed.
>>48129821
My nigga
>>48107133
All S.T.A.L.K.E.R.S., any new fallouts
>>48121369
So I can interrogate prisoners by cutting their fingers off? That's nice to know.
>>48130280
>cutting off the sensitive bits
>not using bamboo shoots
>not freezing then boiling off the finger skin
>not making him beg to cut off now lightly salted and lemon juices skinless fingers
>not peeling then ballpeening the rest
>not amputated with a rusty fish scaler the ruined remains
>>48130280
I'd rather you didn't, and you may not get the results that you want.
>>48106465
I just do small solo stuff over facebook or text if it can reasonably happen "offscreen"
>>48105846
The one important thing that most of my players can ever seem to absorb:
>combat starts
>draw the dungeon rooms on the mat
>place minis
And the players' sense of teamwork and creativity just vanishes. Every time their turn comes up, they don't try to work with their teammates, they don't try to interact with their environment. They move their damn chess piece so many "squares" and make their attack or cast their spell.
Ideally, then, this is the message I'd like to drill into every new player's head before a campaign starts:
"If a fight breaks out and it's complicated enough that we have to model it on the tabletop with figs and a grid, keep in mind that that's just a model so that we can all agree on everyone's relative positions. The game board isn't the battle. Your character is not a chess piece. You have to TELL ME WHAT YOU'RE DOING from your character's perspective. In fact, no touchie da minis—the DM can move them, based on your description of your actions."
>>48124113
>go an entire session without combat
>spend time in a location
>dont even advance the plot
>maybe have a few meaningful pc specific sidequests
>all my groups agree these are the best sessions
>>48105846
>If you have no interest for the game / setting / story, please, go. Don't just sit there because you don't got better things to do.
> Don't make me explain how current world or socierty your character live in works in basics.
>INVEST
I haven't said it before, but after my last group this will be the mandatory opening.
>>48128208
>Rape doesn't make the story more interesting or yield any more results than anything else, and it has the added downside of making people really uncomfortable, especially the women at my table.
This.
>>48127206
>If i rape her it paints me irrevocably as the baddest bad guy.
>>48128657
>How do you feel about the reference of rape/torture within you game?
Literally the only thing that including rape adds to the game, is rape.
I suppose that torture has more utility and is slightly more acceptable, but the game is about having fun and detailing torture is not fun for most people.
