Hey M/tg/
Would Legacy be more diverse without Brainstorm? It's pretty clear that brainstorm decks dominate legacy, with most top 8s containing 28-32 copies of Brainstorm. This may be good or this may be bad, but I just want to explore whether this reduces diversity in the format.
Brainstorm fits into every type of deck, so I don't think it can be said to support aggro more than control or anything like that. What it does is make less consistent decks like Big Red, MUD or Jund worse by comparison, to the point that they do not do well at large tournaments.
On the other hand, brainstorm creates archetypes like Stompy. Without as many Brainstorms around, Chalice decks might not be worth playing at all.
What's everyone's opinion? Is Brainstorm keeping everyone else down or not?
>>48072301
It would weaken the dominance of blue decks but it wouldn't add any diversity. If you want to add diversity ban Force of Will.
>>48072324
>If you want to add diversity ban Force of Will.
You mean "if you want the format to be 90% Combo".
>>48072364
Then ban problematic combo engines or pieces. A 1CC mono-U cantrip that helps consistency isn't the reason diversity is limited.
>bans for the sake of adding diversity
Stop right there. Brainstorm is fine. All these kinds of bans do is piss people off
>>48072369
Why don't you just put the whole format in a bottle, Superman?
add an errata cost of <> to all tap for blue mana effects.
>>48072380
I didn't say it would be a good idea: I want to know if brainstorm is holding back the format. That the only non-brainstorm decks I play either run Thalia or Chalice is telling
>>48072324
That's the single stupidest idea. If you have no idea how legacy works, don't bother to say anything.
>>48072449
brainstorm makes more types of decks more viable if anything
people just don't like legacy being lopsided into blue for some reason, regardless of how diverse the format actually is
>>48072369
Brainstorm decks don't lose to mulliganning anywhere close to as often as non Brainstorm decks. Painter is a great deck, but every tournament it ends up mulliganning to oblivion then never recovering. With Delver, if I mull to five and keep a hand with Brainstorm and a land, I'll functionally have a 7 card hand to work with.
>>48072369
>Then ban problematic combo engines or pieces
And what happened, then? Well, in Whoville they say – that Legacy's banlist grew three sizes that day.
>>48072464
I'm not claiming that Brainstorm doesn't create decks, it clearly does. But is the number of decks that it creates greater than the number of decks that can't keep up with the card selection/consistency? There are a ton of fringe decks that don't have the consistency to put up good results.
>>48072469
More importantly, since when is combo close to a problem in Legacy? The problem decks are Miracles followed closely by Delver variants
I don't see how Brainstorm is harming Legacy's diversity. It's a powerful card that sees play in many decks, but as OP said, it fits in many different decks, so it certainly isn't limiting decks in any way. Deck diversity is not something that's lacking in Legacy.
A lack of diversity would be if a certain archetype was vastly superior to others/certain archetypes were non-existent. If you want an example of that, look at Modern or current Standard. Those are unhealthy formats that lack diversity.
Even then, banning is not the correct way of dealing with that problem. If you feel that a certain archetype is too dominant and holding back the format's diversity, the right answer is to print good cards for the other archetypes to be able to stand a chance.
>>48072491
But that's not a problem caused by Brainstorm specifically. That's a problem caused by Blue having an inherent advantage over other colors by having superior card draw.
>>48072491
those decks don't lose because of the consistency of other decks, it's usually primarily another issue
that's not to say that bringing all brainstorm decks down a bit wouldn't help them, but I think overall it would weaken the amount of fringier decks using brainstorm to piece things together than it would help fringe decks matchups against tier 1 decks
>>48072526
and that problem isn't something worth fixing in legacy because of how much you would need to overhaul the format to promote any semblance of color balance
>>48072526
Blue doesn't actually have good card draw. Brainstorm and Ponder are the only two blue card draw spells that are consistently played, and neither is card advantage. They both offer card selection, but brainstorm let's you throw exchange dead cards for live ones.
The decks that get pushed out are Zoo, MUD, Jund, Knight Decks, Moon Decks and Maverick decks to name a few. They all suffer from similar consistency issues that brainstorm decks are free from
>>48072545
What's the issue holding all the non-blue decks down? I can crush an 8 man with Dragon Stompy, but would never play it in an 8 round tourney
I don't understand why banning Brainstorm is a discussion when it comes to Legacy. Who is actually managing to play enough Legacy to actually FEEL the degenerating impact of Brainstorm if that's even a thing.
The format is fucking dying due to lack of card availability (don't you dare say Eternal Masters helps) and the the people managing to play it are concerned about balance?
That's like worrying about where the cat is when your house is on fire.
I thought the Chinese counterfeits would give players an easy-to-access means to play Legacy. Now even the laziest motherfucker can get good shit without learning how to use photoshop. I was wrong, Magic players are so fucking incompetent that they can't even find a product you can google let alone own the credit card necessary to get them.
>>48072561
zoo is the only one of those far enough outside the line of what I would consider playable
although that is just a personal opinion
I don't think a brainstorm ban would help zoo any, if at all, it's just not on a powerlevel in the first place to compete anymore I think, it has bad matchups against tons of non blue decks anyway e.g. Lands
>>48072561
>Blue doesn't actually have good card draw.
are you shitting me
>Brainstorm and Ponder are the only two blue card draw spells that are consistently played, and neither is card advantage.
how are Brainstorm and Ponder not card advantage?
>They all suffer from similar consistency issues that blue decks are free from
ftfy. and why is that? it was answered in the post you replied to.
>>48072555
I feel like knocking every blue deck roughly equally might help to elevate the non-blue decks that hang around tier 1.5-2
>>48072578
the big issue is force of will I think, that's the lynchpin that keeps the format from being overrun by combo, and those decks enjoy better matchups against all in combo as a result of that
the "problem" with blue dominance is overstated in the first place I think, there are probably more competitive non-blue decks in legacy than overall viable decks in modern
>>48072590
can you give me some examples of these decks you're talking about?
>>48072587
You cast them and end up with the same number of cards in hand.
When you can't run Brainstorm you need to get your consistency from elsewhere. Green Suns Zenith or Top are the two big sources, but they pale in comparison to Brainstorms raw card selection.
I believe I've already explained how Brainstorm makes mulliganning way easier.
>>48072584
Zoo's big problem is that it's just worse than Delver. It was a good deck up until Delver was printed, then just kind of vanished.
>>48072611
Nic fit, Maverick, Tezzerator, Big Red, Zoo, Jund, Painter Pox and Stompy to name a few
>>48072603
Combo decks are built to beat Force of Will decks. Non-blue decks run stuff like Teeg/Chalice/3ball to fuck up storm, Sneak and Show is always harder but I've seen Ensnaring Bridge a lot to beat it out with Chalice to slow it down
>>48072660
I'm talking about more all in combo like TES or Belcher instead of ANT or Show and Tell
>>48072638
Moggcatcher Stompy, Affinity, Fluctuator, green post, sylvan plug
>>48072497
Legacy Combo isn't a problem because everyone and their mum runs Force of Will. They don't advance through tournaments because at some point they're going to get shit on by someone getting the Forces at the right time.
Take it away and they're free to do whatever they want.
>>48072667
They're often going for goblins if they're going for a t1 kill, so ratchet bomb/pyroclasm are plans. If they let you take a turn, you actually get some pretty close games. Trinisphere on the play turn 1 is an instant win against belcher, so that's always a plan
>>48072686
That's why no ones suggesting that. But assuming that Force of Will is great against most combo decks is foolish, given the choice between a Force and a chalice against storm; I'll take a chalice
>>48072684
>>48072638
a lot of the strengths of a number of these decks is their ability to prey on a number of the blue decks running tons of ones (things like delver)
their bad matchups are things like ANT or Lands
>>48072716
>>That's why no ones suggesting that.
>>48072324
>ban Force of Will
>>48072742
That's just one retard; I meant no one in the legacy community seriously supports that
>>48072734
That's fair, I do think that anti-brainstorm decks are a thing (stompy). In general though, most of those decks are good against some brainstorm decks and bad against other brainstorm decks.
>>48072623
You know that the guy with 4-7 business spells sitting in his hand has card advantage over the guy shuffling 7 basic lands, right?
>>48072587
>how are Brainstorm and Ponder not card advantage?
You are the least fit person in this thread to talk about magic let alone legacy.
>>48072301
>Would Legacy be more diverse without Brainstorm?
It would be way less diverse, 56 of each 60 card deck would see much more homogenization as the amount of realistic decks would shrink drastically without the ability to filter your draws and exchange lands for spells with fetchlands. This would happen because on average you would see a lot less of your deck in a given game leading to playing more redundancy and linear strategies.
>>48074637
I won't debate that losing brainstorm will make the blue decks worse, that's largely the point. You also appear to be talking about diversity in decklists: I was concerned in diversity in viable decks. Decks without access to brainstorm are worse than decks with brainstorm by a significant margin.
As for supporting linear strategies, they have to balance disruption and business more carefully without brainstorm.
>>48072301
The question isn't 'does it need more diversity' in legacy. Legacy is the most diverse format. The question should be 'is it too powerful' or 'can the format handle it'. Brainstorm gets to stick around for much the same reason Cranial Plating or Arcbound Ravager gets to stick around in modern, and that's because the format can handle it. The format can handle X amount of broken things, and brainstorm is within tolerance. You go over that X and suddenly decks lose the ability to handle the majority of the format and suddenly everything goes to shit.
