Thread starter question: How do you like to portray the factions outside of Sigil and outside of their "home planes," such as the Fraternity of Order in Mount Celestia, the Society of Sensation in the Gray Waste, or the Believers of the Source in Pandemonium?
Discuss Planescape and the Great Wheel here, whether the original AD&D 2e version, the 3.X version, the 4e version (traces of the Great Wheel exist in 4e, down to the baernaloths, the yugoloths, the Heart of Darkness, Maeldur et Kavurik, Tenebrous, Pelion, and the Last Word all being canon as of Dragon #417), the 5e version, or your own original blend.
I am exceedingly well-lanned on planar canon under a holistic blend of 2e, 3.X, and sporadically even 4e lore. If you have any questions at all about the setting's lore, feel free to ask, and I will give you direct quotes and citations from as many primary sources as I can, unlike afroakuma. I will note when something is open to GM interpretation, and explicitly note whenever I give merely my own personal interpretation.
If you would like to ask anything under the context of a single edition and nothing more, please mention such.
>Basic setting summary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planescape
>Comprehensive Planescape reference index: http://www.rilmani.org/psIndex.txt
>Planewalker.com planar encyclopedia: http://mimir.planewalker.com/encyclopedia/plane
>Canonfire.com planar encyclopedia: http://canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Outer_Planes
>Rilmani.org planar encyclopedia (contains unmarked fanon, so beware): http://www.rilmani.org/timaresh/Outer_Planes
>List of all the multiverse's gods (contains all gods mentioned in D&D products, but also has plenty of speculation and fanon for mythological deities and for powers with few details on them): http://mimir.planewalker.com/forum/list-dead-gods#comment-58090
Old threads with previous questions and comprehensive answers: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EC4fQ7qW0dNveXRDD2UZsB2NXbyIpEm-jCtTjwBQH3I/edit
I'm running a Planescape game right now, the campaign being an adaptation of the Rod of Seven Parts with mostly original locations/encounters. So far the party's been to an ancient, underwater marid city, an inn devoted to making elves and other sylvan creatures at home in the grime and industry of Sigil and a layer of the Abyss named for the hurricane of blood at the center . They've pursued a thief through several portals on the streets of the Cage, a chase that culminated in a naval chase in the oceanic layer of Arborea that eventually shifted to the Astral Plane and the corpse of Iyachtu Xvim. They adventured through a weirdly distorted copy of a Prime Material City in Limbo, duelled the chief of a barbarian horde on Acheron while another cube fast approached from above to smash them all into pieces and negotiated a deal between a king of a besieged prime world and the guardinals of Belierin’s Rubicon.
>>48052520
>an inn devoted to making elves and other sylvan creatures at home in the grime and industry of Sigil
Why not build an inn in an idyllic and verdant plane such as Bytopia, Elysium, or Arborea, and then advertise a portal to it in Sigil?
Such an "off-Sigil" business model has canonical precedent, most notably in the Court of Woe of the nalfeshnee Judge Gabberslug from pages 38-41 in Uncaged: Faces of Sigil.
Elves and fairies are unlikely to be find Sigil's deity-barring nature to be a special selling point, seeing how they have multiversal pantheons (the Seldarine and the Seelie Court) watching over them.
>>48052675
Those Planes are more strungly aligned and can have other side-effects.
You don't get more emotional when you're in Sigil, for instance.
>>48052998
One cannot get more neutral than the Outlands (which Sigil is already in), and it has an infinity of real estate to work with.
The way I see it, there is no good reason why Sigil is *not* an exclusively upper-class city, and I cannot fathom why the Hive has not already been gentrified. The planes are infinitely expansive, and Sigil is both finite (adjustable in size by Her Serenity, but still finite) and extremely well-connected to every other location in the multiverse. Real estate lots in a "generic" stretch of any given plane should be worth a pittance, while prices in the City of Doors would be worth titanic amounts.
>>48053091
There are actual reasons for people to want poor areas to exist and to live in them. Sure, a bit of the Hive could be gentrified, but do you really want to live next to an intermittently opening portal to a layer of the Abyss filled with poisonous gas?
Similarly, criminals and "dodgy" people actually like areas with less law and order. It's not so much that Sigil can't be gentrified as it is that people don't want to gentrify it (also, pit fiends and gelugons are a lot harder to price out of a given area).
>>48053872
>do you really want to live next to an intermittently opening portal to a layer of the Abyss filled with poisonous gas
Certain types of poison-immune tanar'ri, obyriths, loumaras, and miscellaneous demons may *want* to live in such an area. They might find living in the capital of the multiverse, having near-instant access to a wide variety of locations, and being near a slice of "home" to be an appealing package. Such an area might be considered luxurious real estate to them, and I could see a canny entrepreneur sprucing up such an area to Abyssal tastes and marketing it accordingly.
>Similarly, criminals and "dodgy" people actually like areas with less law and order.
This does not necessarily mean wishing to live in squalid conditions, however.
>>48052074
Where is this from?
So what are some good plot hooks for low level characters outside of sigil, I was planning on having my PC's go from signal to the elemental plane of dust to search for an artifact in a long dead city that had been swallowed up by the plane from the prime and was wondering how to give my PC's a reason to be there as well as what appropriate monsters to include from the plane, other than a cult who are also looking for the artifact.
>>48056030
That doesn't sound terribly low level.
If you're looking for a good place for low level adventurers to hang out, you can always go with the Outlands/Gate Towns, or some of the Upper Planes.
As for the situation you gave, I'd say that they need an artifact from a certain Prime world in order to activate a portal that they need to get through for whatever reason (this was a job they were hired to do, something from their backstory, stumble across it as a rumor while out in the city/reading archives, spot the portal opening in a sensory stone, etc etc).
>>48056030
I would suggest downloading the Planes of Law/Chaos/Conflict boxed sets and consulting their respective "adventure" sections for ideas on low-level adventures in the Outer Planes. There are sample low-level adventures for each of the Planes of Law, each of the Planes of Chaos, and the Gray Waste; the lattermost of these involves low-level characters speaking to a greater deity (Hades), in person, in their own divine realm, which sets quite a bar for low-level adventures in the Great Wheel.
The Eternal Boundary and Doors to the Unknown are premade modules designed to start off with low-level PCs. Some of the adventures in Well of Worlds, the Great Modron March, and Tales from the Infinite Staircase are also suitable for low-level parties.
While not quite official, FrankTrollman has some rock-solid ideas for low-level adventures in the Lower Planes here:
https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Tome_of_Fiends_(3.5e_Sourcebook)/Campaigning_on_the_Lower_Planes
The Book of Elements likewise has good foundations for low-level adventures in the Inner Planes:
https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Book_of_Elements_(3.5e_Sourcebook)/High_Adventure_on_the_Inner_Planes
>>48056157
Given the precedent that Planes of Conflict sets (that is, low-level adventurers heading to the depths of the Gray Waste and parleying with a greater god in person in their own divine realm), there is really no such thing as a location inappropriate for low-level PCs to delve into.
What truly matter are the stakes of the adventure (low-level PCs tend to impact the multiverse in *slightly* less meaningful ways than higher-level PCs, especially when you consider that the infamous "Squaring the Circle" is the highest-level fully-detailed official Planescape adventure) and the opponents the PCs absolutely must battle head-on (Planescape was designed for 2e, wherein "social encounters" between neophyte adventurers and tremendously powerful entities were relatively fair due to a dearth of hard-coded social rules).
>>48056157
Thanks, so would it be better to start the PC's off in an Outland town in search of the key and then only send them off to find the artefact once they reach level 4/5, if so what are some interesting things I could do to add flavour to the Outland town so that it doesn't just feel like a generic hamlet on the prime with a few gimmicks?
>>48055536
Looks like Manual of the Planes, 1st ed.
>>48056030
Now, the Quasielemental Plane of Dust is fleshed-out in pages 114-117 of the Inner Planes book.
Native creatures include dust quasielementals, dust animentals (elemental versions of animals, and apparently "dust wolves" are the most common of these, so the population of literal dust bunnies must be low), dust mephits, dune stalkers, sandling earth kin elementals, sandman elementals, and magic-devouring hakeashar.
Presumably, anything with "dune," "dust," or "sand" in its name can be found here, so Athasian dune freaks, dune reapers, dune runners, dune trappers, sand brides, sand cacti, sand howlers, sand vortices, and sandworms should also be fair game. Brown dragons (also known as sand dragons), dust twisters, dust wights, and dustblights would also make sense here.
It seems that creatures from the Elemental Plane of Earth such as xorns, dao, and earth elementals are frequently found in Dust, which makes sense, given that they have no breathing problems in soil and should not asphyxiate in dust either. This is not outright stated in the Inner Planes book, but I would wager that undead from the adjacent Negative Energy Plane would have an easy time here as well due to their breathless nature. Such visitors still have to worry about the passive *disintegration* effect and other dangers, but at least the Earth/NEP folks can focus on protecting themselves from those.
The Quasielemental Plane of Dust is also one of the four "home territories" of the Doomguard faction, which you can read about in pages 38-47 of the Factol's Manifesto. Their stronghold here is called Citadel Alluvius, and it is headed by Pereid, an LN female human from the prime who is a 19th-level thief in 2e and "welcomes visitors of all kinds." This would be a good base to operate from, if the party can stand the deeply eccentric and often self-contradictory faction beliefs of the Doomguard.
>>48056532
For a "cult who are also looking for the artifact," I see four main options.
The first is the minions of the chaotic evil archomental Alu Kahn Sang, the "Wind of Destruction," a warlord who "has managed to assemble a legion of its peers under a banner of ultimate chaos and carnage. Sang appeals to nothing more than a desire for absolute destruction and violence, but its followers find that motivation enough." If you want irredeemably evil villains, these would be ideal.
The second are the dao of the Elemental Plane of Earth. They comprise a vast empire of questionable morals and rampant slave-taking (neutral evil), yet they are in turn bound servants to the even greater empire of the yikarians (also known as yak-men). If you want the enemies to come from a regimented and hierarchal empire, these are a solid choice.
A third possible enemy would be one of the many undead who hail from the Negative Energy Plane. These could have any number of motivations, and some of the undead might have come from the very long-dead city swallowed up by Dust.
The fourth and possibly most morally ambiguous would be the Doomguard members who call the Quasielemental Plane of Dust home. The Sinkers comprise every possible alignment, from lawful good to chaotic evil, and their leader in Dust is lawful neutral. Competing with the Doomguard would present the strong possibility that the PCs are not necessarily in the right and could very well be encroaching on a faction's vague "jurisdiction," although some PCs might detest the faction's entropy-venerating ways regardless.
>>48056379
>recommending Frank Trollman
>for anything
Opinions disregarded.
>>48056419
I strongly contest >>48056157 and fully believe that it would be appropriate to send the party to the Quasielemental Plane of Dust even at low levels. If you would like to start off the party in Sigil, you could have the party search for a gate-key and a portal to Dust, possibly involving a favor for the Doomguard (though that is off the table if the party is competing with the Sinkers). However, it is imperative that you give the PCs some means of protecting themselves from disintegration and suffocation, such as a spell cast upon them by a Sinker or by a native of Dust.
Depending on the system you are using, it would hardly be impossible to pit the party against level-appropriate enemies from the creatures listed in >>48056532. The party can fight "dust wolves," the least powerful of the dust quasielementals, minor undead riddled with sand and dust, and so on.
As for a reason to get PCs invested in searching for the artifact in the first place, this ultimately depends on what you have in mind for the greater campaign overall, and what the individual PCs' motivations are. You could leave it up to the players by asking them: "Your PC is in search of an artifact said to lie in a long-dead city swallowed up by the Quasielemental Plane of Dust. What rumors has your character heard of the relic's abstruse qualities, and why have such qualities driven your character to seek it out past the perils of disintegration and suffocation?"
>>48056627
Say what you will about this person, but they present workable plot hooks for the Lower Planes.
>>48053091
Because in an exclusively upper class area, it is very difficult, if not impossible, to easily (key word there) locate scum, villains, and people who will do things you need done easily and without question at reasonable prices.
Sure, you can get those things done as well in a totally gentirfied area, but you run the risks of being overcharged, gossip, and other issues, and it's a lot harder to make the friendly, powerful, rich neighbor who did you a favor disappear than it is the bloke in the lesser market that no one is going to give two shits about.
>>48056627
What did he do that triggers you so?
The catalyst shit wasn't actually his fault.
>>48056688
He 'fixed' 3.5 by making fighters do more damage and claimed he was the savior of fighters everywhere, then got touted on 4chan as the fixer of fighters everywhere.
Damage was never the problem, of course.
>>48056670
>Because in an exclusively upper class area, it is very difficult, if not impossible, to easily (key word there) locate scum, villains, and people who will do things you need done easily and without question at reasonable prices.
In Sigil, however, it is relatively easy. All that is necessary is a trip to a Lower Planar gate-town of your choice, or, if one is feeling daring, a city in a Lower Plane outright.
The main benefit of living in Sigil is not the city itself, or even its inhabitants. It is having a "home base" from which one has access to nearly every other location in the multiverse. (A secondary draw for some might be the Cage's wards against deities.)
That is a premium that would surely cost a great deal in a city with a finite space, compared to the literally infinite amounts of real estate in the planes.
>>48056419
As the person who said that, I reccomend listening to the advice of the other poster.
As for the Gate-towns, they're all well fleshed out and have a bunch of unique aspects to them anyway - Torch is exceedingly unique, for one.
As for sending them off to find the artifact, you can do that from the start - I was suggesting that the artifact itself be the key to a portal (which has something even more interesting behind it).
>>48056707
Good, now convince Her Flensingness that you own land on Sigil and can therefore sell it or rent it.
>>48056707
Trusting demons, devils, or daemons to do your dirty work is really not a wise choice. As any wizard.
>>48056707
You should really play Planescape Torment - a large portion of it takes place in the Hive/Lower Ward, and it handled the parts of Sigil it included rather well.
>>48053091
>>48056707
My main issue with this is that it removes the possibility of low level play in Sigil, if not removing Sigil from play entirely by virtue of not having any place PCs could actually afford or utilize until they were exceedingly high level. If you're going to make it inaccessible to your players, then just remove it from the game.
>>48056714
Matters of Sigilian real estate have nothing to do with preserving the grand balance of the Cage and the cosmic fulcrum that is its physical torus.
This is why page 69 of In the Cage: A Guide to Sigil tells us about this registry in the Hall of Information in the Clerk's Ward:
>Land Registry. Provides names of Sigil landowners, along with lists of their properties. (Information may not be distributed without landowner's written permission.) Processing Fee: 5 sp.
Page 66 of the same book mentions that another service available in the Hall of Information is:
>Arranging a meeting with a wealthy landowner.
People can own land in Sigil, and I see no reason for real estate prices to *not* be monstrously high given the premium access to the multiverse's many locations that living in the City of Doors offers.
>>48056729
The payoffs can be quite worthwhile, on the other hand, and Sigil's information-broking underworld is already under the grip of a daemon anyway (Shemeshka, an arcanaloth).
If you would prefer a lower risk:reward ratio, you can try your luck in one of the Lower Planar gate-towns, most of which are *not* run by fiends (Plague-Mort being the only exception).
>>48056763
Ah, but there *would* be a way for PCs to use Sigil as home base even assuming very high real estate prices: joining a faction. As established in the Factol's Manifesto, the factions provide for their own and are willing to give places to stay to their faction members, be it in the faction headquarters themselves or a safehouse elsewhere in the Cage.
>>48056787
First of all, I think it's more than likely that Her Serenity doesn't want the slums removed - it's important that Sigil remain balanced in a number of ways, including having a disparity between rich and poor, because Sigil defines so much else about the rest of the multiverse.
Additionally, plenty of land in the Hive and Lower Ward belongs to people who have zero interest in selling - and plenty of the poor people there live in Flophouses and other temporary accommodation that doesn't involve owning property.
And really, you're not going to attract good buyers for places like pic related. Some parts of Sigil are actually exceedingly dangerous, and nobody with any sense wants to live there.
>>48056853
>First of all, I think it's more than likely that Her Serenity doesn't want the slums removed - it's important that Sigil remain balanced in a number of ways, including having a disparity between rich and poor, because Sigil defines so much else about the rest of the multiverse.
This is probably the best explanation, partially because it is a thinly-veiled "There are slums because the GM says there should be slums."
Another reason could be that real estate in Sigil is *so* expensive and yet *so* valuable (due to the location) that some people who might have been able to afford manors elsewhere have willingly opted to live in tenements in the Hive.
>And really, you're not going to attract good buyers for places like pic related. Some parts of Sigil are actually exceedingly dangerous, and nobody with any sense wants to live there.
I am not so sure about that. Some fiends might find rivers of acid and bile quaint; the buildings in the illustration do not look run-down at all, and for all we know, it could be a fiendish neighborhood.
>>48056705
He gave them a shitload of other benefits as well, and made a bunch of new classes that were actually on the same level as good casters.
>>48056908
Even with fiends liking an area, there would still be pressure on the real estate market. Plenty of fiends are happy living in the Lower Planes, and the ones ambitious enough to find a place to live there are usually unique or odd individuals (outsiders that become faction-members, for instance).
But yes, the "GM says that's how it is because it creates a more interesting environment to adventure in" is the best explanation.
>>48056532
>>48056596
>>48056658
It should also be noted that as an Inner Plane, the Quasielemental Plane of Dust would also be home to a handful of Inner Plane-traveling creatures, such as chososions, monadic devas, and abiorach rilmani.
One potentially humorous encounter you might include is a terribly lost and harebrained Dustman (perhaps a dust genasi) who had joined the faction purely based on its name, and is now futilely wandering the plane in search of a nonexistent stronghold of the Dustmen.
However, since belief is power in the planes, they might have caused a small outpost of the Dustmen to retroactively spawn into existence within the Storm of Annihilation (the region of Dust closest to the Negative Energy Plane), close to the Doomguard's Citadel Alluvius. The outpost might contain a garden of atramen trees, and their fruits could make a good source of atramen oil from pages 75-76 of the Planar Handbook; it could have also attracted a small host of undead from the adjacent NEP, who find the Dustman's presence to be comforting.
I must sleep very soon.
Greetings, primes. It's time for another episode of Cooking with Nana. I'm the cutest and most cunning new lord of The Fourfold Furnaces and your host, Nana.
On this episode, we will be preparing a favorite dish of mine, Fried Larval Veal, Hellfire style. All we need to start with is a cauldron for eating oil, an adjustable heat source, a clean preparation area, two bowls, and a method of procuring protomatter. Protomatter pellets are fine to use, but I prefer conjuring my own protomatter from the Ethereal Plane.
First, we're going to form the protomatter into the raw ingredients for our dish. Start by creating elf fat inside your pot. Elf fat is great for frying. It's very light, clear, and leaves a beautiful golden-brown color on fried foods. You should have about a half-inch of oil at the bottom of your cauldron by the time it is done heating.
>>48058207
Next, you’ll need to make a single large pyroclastic dragon egg. Just give it a sharp tap on your bowl like so and scramble it. Create four larval veal cuts from your favorite kind of larva. I like to use a little more negative energy to compensate for the lack of suffering and torment that comes with real larval veal. Fill your other bowl with bonemeal bread-crumbs. They look bone white now, but they will pick up the color of the elf fat when they are fried. Add salt, sulfur, and spices to your taste and mix with the breadcrumbs. Finally, we’re going to grind up two fresh phoenix feathers and it aside. Now we’re ready to start cooking!
Dip the larval veal in the scrambled dragon eggs until they have a nice, sticky coating of egg. Then dip them in the breadcrumb mixture. Make sure to get a nice, even coating of breadcrumbs across the surface of the veal. Set your veal cutlets in the oil now. There should be just enough oil for them to swim like so. Fry them on each side for 4-6 minutes or until golden brown.
Once they look finished, drain the cutlets on a towel and sprinkle them with a fine dusting of ground phoenix feather. Slice them into bite-sized strips and garnish each cutlet with a leaf of razorvine and viola! Your Fried Larval Veal is complete! Your guests will not be able to resist the flavor, and the spicyness of the phoenix feather will have them begging for drinks. At this point, it’s a safe bet to slip them a drink with some special drugs and turn your guests into obedient slaves.
Thanks for watching! Tune in next time for Cooking with Nana, where we will show you how to made wedding soup from godling bones!
>>48058207
Protomatter-based creation presents a legitimate philosophical conundrum. We know for a fact(from the 2e Guide to the Ethereal Plane)that talented magicians can permanently shape protomatter into stable aether, and from there, just about anything. Advanced applications of this magic are how demiplanes are made, and also places such as Believers' Forge.
We also know why this is thematically possible: the Ethereal Plane is the primordial font of matter and energy, the realm of unlimited potential and everything that can and will be.
However, is anything permanently shaped from protomatter turned into stable aether truly "real"? Could a substance that matches the exact elemental composition of, say, a pyroclastic dragon egg be truly considered a pyroclastic dragon egg, or can it be disqualified due to never having come from such a dragon? Furthermore, what would happen if one was to incubate the egg? Would it hatch? Would that not mean that raw life could be created from protomatter shaping?
What are your thoughts on the psionic discipline of metacreativity, which replicates feats of protomatter shaping with just as much finesse using the Astral Plane's substance of ectoplasm? Do you consider such a pretender to protomatter shaping? How do you rationalize this as possible in the first place when the Astral Plane represents thought and emotion rather than physical matter and energy?
Additionally, what is your take on a certain *other* fox-arcanaloth's cooking methods?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17526479&postcount=1315
>>48058492
>However, is anything permanently shaped from protomatter turned into stable aether truly "real"?
Of course! Well, it is real in the sense that it is tangible and useful... it's just not exactly the same as the original. Taking artistic liberties is just part of cooking with protomatter. Sometimes it's better than the original.
>Could a substance that matches the exact elemental composition of, say, a pyroclastic dragon egg be truly considered a pyroclastic dragon egg, or can it be disqualified due to never having come from such a dragon? Furthermore, what would happen if one was to incubate the egg? Would it hatch? Would that not mean that raw life could be created from protomatter shaping?
So many bothersome questions! Of course it's not exactly the same. I could make it the same if I wanted to! I could make a true pyroclastic dragon egg and give it life if I wanted to.
>What are your thoughts on the psionic discipline of metacreativity, which replicates feats of protomatter shaping with just as much finesse using the Astral Plane's substance of ectoplasm? Do you consider such a pretender to protomatter shaping? How do you rationalize this as possible in the first place when the Astral Plane represents thought and emotion rather than physical matter and energy?
I... uh... I know all about that! Metacreativity is just a neat parlor trick. It's not even worth discussing.
>Additionally, what is your take on a certain *other* fox-arcanaloth's cooking methods?
Oh... her? Well, she does have good taste, but her method of cooking is hardly original, practical, or convenient. I'm a busy yugoloth and I can't be bothered to spend 15 hours preparing barghests. My recipes are for busy people with things to do, not mangy old freaks with nothing better to do with their time.
>>48058850
>I could make a true pyroclastic dragon egg and give it life if I wanted to.
Even a wizards using the powerful "Demiplane Seed" or "Genesis" spells cannot create life in their demiplane. That is normally the purview of true dweomers such as "Origin Of Species." What makes you think you can create an egg that hatches into life?
>My recipes are for busy people with things to do, not mangy old freaks with nothing better to do with their time.
Instant noodles from Sigilian convenience stores are also "for busy people with things to do."
>>48059032
>What makes you think you can create an egg that hatches into life?
I created a whole crystal sphere, complete with life, and I was hardly trying! I've got proof, too! It's in the hold of my ship right now. Creating a single egg would be simple. I'm a demiurge, after all.
>Instant noodles from Sigilian convenience stores are also "for busy people with things to do."
That's disgusting! That's for untalented berks with no money. How dare you insinuate that my cooking is anything like that cheap, flavorless crap! I can prepare something tasty and nutritious in the time it takes to walk to a convenience store and buy noodles. What are you, president of the Shemeshka fan club?
>>48056497
Not the Advanced Line at all, actually.
>>48055536 Rules Compendium.
It's probably in the Master Set, too.
>Planescape thread
>weeb fags posting their weebfag art
Go back to your containment board! It's time to DiTerlizzi this bitch up!
>>48059746
>>48059757
>>48059771
>>48059781
>>48059746
you're doing god's work, anon.
>>48059805
>>48059846
Appreciate the sentiment, even if I am an Athar
>>48059889
>>48059911
>>48059924
>>48059937
>>48059950
>>48059964
>>48059986
>>48060012
>>48060038
>>48060055
>>48060076
>>48060096
>>48060118
>>48060128
>>48060146
And that's it for now
>>48056908
there are slums because the xaoisects and the presence of barmies from the gatehouse makes the hive unruly in the literal sense.
>tfw want to do a game focusing on how a world comes to terms with a cataclysm and rebuilds afterwards
>tfw also want to do high powered adventures on different planes of reality
>both in the same campaign would detract from either
Anyone else know this feel?
>>48064737
Oh got a scenario perfect for that - just have prime material planes occasionally drop into the negative energy plane, and all the various factions take an interest in evacuating/revelling/note taking in the chaos of a world literally coming to an end.
PC party could be planars roped into the evacuation and resettlement efforts or primes whose world is being destroyed.
>>48060166
>>48063745
One could interpret the Xaositects as a force of construction just as much as dismantlement when one considers that their favorite plane, Limbo, is a furnace of creation and destruction alike.
The Bleak Cabal, from my reading of their chapter in the Factol's Manifesto, would be one of the factions with a vested interest in gentrifying the Hive. They try to improve the lot of the Cage's poor with soup kitchens and other philanthropic services, so I fail to see why they would not use their resources to try to fix up the Hive.
>>48064737
The Planes of Law boxed set shows us that the slide of the layer of Nemausus from Arcadia to Mechanus was a cataclysmic event with huge consequences, stretching from faction politics (the Harmonium was the one responsible for the transition), to outsider species' relations (many a formian and Arcadian petitioner lost territory that day while the modrons gained much ground), to matters of cosmic balance (the slide is a loss for good and a victory for evil).
You could run a campaign wherein one of the Upper Planes' layers falls into, say, the Outlands. You might explore how the inhabitants deal with the fact that they were apparently "unworthy" enough to be cast out of the heavens, and try to rebuild in the Plane of Concordant Opposition and redeem themselves that they may reunite with the Upper Planes.
Of course, many a fiend would have a vested interest in capitalizing on this victory for evil, by trying to sabotage the fallen layer's struggle for redemption.
A good candidate for such a scenario would be Elysium's bottom layer of Thalasia, the fall of which would be especially catastrophic due to it containing the headwaters of the River Oceanus. Such a rerouting of this Upper Planar pathway would cause a great upheaval in the cosmic balance.
>>48066067
>>48064737
>>48066095
Don't forget about gate-towns - they're a lot easier to push into sliding onto another Plane, and there's even a published adventure about it.
Torment did it too.
>>48065802
This is also a fair idea, but I would have the Prime world fall into the *Positive* Energy Plane instead. It would make for a surreal apocalypse when the inhabitants of the world explode en masse from being overloaded with life force, and when "animating zones" (see page 83 of the 3.0 Manual of the Planes) appear and uncontrollably animate objects and plants. The influence of the Positive would make the post-apocalyptic world a place of verdurous life and nature rather than a decrepit husk.
The Positive Energy Plane is also home to many soul fonts (see the 3.0 Bastion of Broken Souls adventure and pages 207-209 of 3.5 Magic of Incarnum), which spawn the souls of the multiverse and send them flying off to newborns. The Prime world could have appeared within the boundaries of a soul font, causing a major cataclysm in the creation and dissemination of newborn souls; this would prompt many factions and exemplars to investigate, and yet none of the gods could directly act upon this, for soul fonts are barred from any form of deific intervention as per the Ban of the Unborn.
>>48066234
A gate-town is not quite a "world," and only really the Lower Planar gate-towns would consider a slide into their associated plane to be a catastrophe. The Upper Planar gate-towns would find it a cause for celebration, and I imagine Automata and Xaos would be ambivalent.
>>48066095
>They try to improve the lot of the Cage's poor with soup kitchens and other philanthropic services, so I fail to see why they would not use their resources to try to fix up the Hive.
The Bleak Cabal suffer probably the most from sudden fluctuations in membership and in capability to handle their philantropic goals and projects, so there are times when they simply have to kick out a load of their barmies before giving them any treatment, as well as there are barmies who simply aren't entirely treatable who they can't justify keeping locked away either.
So the hive around the gatehouse has a lot more barmies around it than elsewhere, which acts as a major boundary layer between sigil as a whole and the hive (I tend to tell my players they're near the gathouse by having them come across an area dubbed "the hall of shouters" - basically an open area where a bunch of streets come together and make a nice city square area that's filled with street preachers, doomsayers and fortune tellers). These barmies in turn make any attempt by the harmonium to clean the area up futile to the point of the harmonium losing officers to the bleakers as the futility of the scheme wears at them.
Coincidentally or on purpose, this creates a great smoke screen for chaotic types who need to evade harmonium or mercy killer patrols or hunts - which in turn means that the criminal organisations in the rest of sigil make sure the hive is kept in its present state and not cleaned up.
(of course this all boils down to "it just works")
>A gate-town is not quite a "world," and only really the Lower Planar gate-towns would consider a slide into their associated plane to be a catastrophe.
Demi-Planes suddenly crash landing into the prime or lower planes is probably more on the right scale.
>>48067554
Page 30 of the Factol's Manifesto notes that:
>Five hundred years ago, the Bleakers took over the asylum, renaming it the Gatehouse (berks in the Hive swear that’s because the building sits at the edge of the Lady of Pain’s Mazes). Since they arrived, the territory surrounding the building’s deteriorated even further, despite the positive influence the faction’s had on the ward.
In other words, while the Bleak Cabal has had a positive influence on the Hive overall, the area has deteriorated over the course of five hundred years.
However, if we go back to page 28 of the Factol's Manifesto, we can see evidence that this is about to change for the better. For the past few decades, the Bleak Cabal has been in a "golden age" of sorts:
>Although modern-day Bleakers still contract the Grim Retreat now and again (mostly because of the pressures and tensions of living in the teeming City of Doors), the faction’s learned a thing or two about mental health over centuries. The success rate of patients’ recovery is now quite high. The faction also tends to keep the number of Bleakers stable, currently maintaining a registered membership of some 10,000 beings in Sigil, though a considerably large population inhabits Pandemonium (the Madmen’s primary plane of influence). Lhar’s been factol for approximately three years now, and he’s determined to maintain the policies established by previous factols — mostly because they seem to work. It’s been over 30 years since a mass Grim Retreat, and the number of Madmen seeking voluntary commitment in the Mad Bleaker wing of the Gatehouse has dropped dramatically.
>>48067554
>>48068147
>Part of this good fortune stems from the Bleak Cabal taking a greater interest in Sigil. Oddly, of all the factions in the Cage, the Bleakers are arguably the most charitable. Why do they like to help others? Some no doubt find relief in caring for sods worse off than they are; a few Bleakers even suffer from messiah complexes and want to save the world from madness and death. But most just figure that by doing good works, they’ll move closer to finding the true meaning that lies within. And besides, expanding the faction’s presence and influence in Sigil is never a bad thing.
>More than a century ago they opened up an almshouse in their faction headquarters, helping to care for the poor and lost. It still operates today, along with small soup kitchens throughout the city. These places of safe haven are open to a body in need of a warm meal, regardless of race or creed. And if the sod happens to be a Bleaker, he and his cutters can get a cot in a back room for a night.
I would like to think that given such a zenith of the Bleak Cabal's overall competence and positive influence, they stand a solid chance of gentrifying the Hive.
As for your proposed idea of "demiplanes crashing into the Prime or the Lower Planes," that seems deeply unlikely given how grounded most such miniature planes are in the Deep Ethereal or the Astral Plane. It would take a tremendous force to push them over to another plane altogether, much more so than a transition of an Outer Planar layer, an event that is already "programmed" to be possible via the shifting of the cosmic forces of good, evil, law, and chaos.
what is the population of sigil? I've heard it is less than 100k, but that seems so small given that it is a "major" city in a setting with multiple planes that have hundreds of billions of inhabitants.
Are there mindflayers and aboleths in sigil?
>>48069070
Sigil's population varies a lot, but I'm not sure what the exact or even approximate number is.
As for aboleths and mind-flayers, yes there are. But they don't really cause much trouble, because while they could probably overpower the guards...acting up too hard in public draws Her attention, which is infinitely worse.
>>48069070
Page 13 of AD&D 2e's In the Cage: A Guide to Sigil says:
>Though the city has a population of more than a million, two-thirds of that are transient planars and primes.
This is consistent with how pages 74-75 of the original Planescape Campaign Setting boxed set's Sigil and Beyond strongly insists that Sigil is "medieval" in terms of technology and society, despite that being contradicted by later books in the product line.
A population of over a million (even if two-thirds of them are transients) would be mind-boggling by medieval standards, and would vastly exceed the canonical populations of the gate-towns in the 2e Player's Primer to the Outlands. Even the largest of the gate-towns, Bedlam, has a population of only 50,000; and a smaller city like Ecstasy boasts merely 25,000.
For reasons unfathomable, these values were lowered in 3.5, though this could be explained by a mass emigration away from Sigil after the Faction War. According to page 142 of the Planar Handbook, Sigil's population is a mere 250,000 (it is not stated whether or not this includes transients); compared to the City of Brass's 500,000 free residents and 1,000,000 slaves. In page 51 of Dragon Magazine #351, the population of the gate-town of Ecstasy was reduced to just 2,500.
D&D 4e's version of Sigil also had a population of only 250,000 in page 25 of the 4e Manual of the Planes, though again, this does not clarify whether or not the value includes transients.
To put it simply, Sigil's population depends on the edition you are using, though if you need an explanation for 2e's Sigilian population values being the largest, chalk it up to the 2e product line being mostly pre-Faction War.
>mindflayers and aboleths in sigil?
Planes of Chaos's poster of the Abyss mentions an illithid Guvner named "Illionth," who must have gone to Sigil's City Court sooner or later. That sets a canonical precedent for at least one mind flayer in the Cage. An aboleth would not be unthinkable either.
>>48069605
There's not really anything stopping illithids from going to Sigil, but there's not really all that much there for them. The standard mind flayer approach of "mind blast and feed" is an incredibly dumb idea on the streets of Sigil - there are too many powerful outsiders, adventurers and other creatures, not to mention the cranium rats, which can easily overpower the illithids in large numbers.
Aboleths would have a bit of trouble what with the whole aquatic thing, but they could do it. They'd probably be more likely to send servants, but there's nothing stopping them from showing up themselves and there would definitely be establishments and stores dedicated to things like them.
>>48071145
What of carving out traditional illithid and aboleth societies in the sprawling depths of Undersigil, and then traveling to the surface as needed to access portals all over the multiverse?
>>48071171
Probably not much point. There's no real need for that, because there's nothing worth keeping that large a number of flayers/aboleths in one location for. Aboleth society isn't friendly at the best of times, and an elder brain would be hunted down and killed almost immediately by the people of Sigil.
>>48066096
Planescape really does have the best art.
>>48071859
Good maps at least.
>>48071342
it would probably take a lot of people to kill an elder brain. I think i remember in 3e they even had a higher CR than a pit fiend.
>>48074103
Well they produce an ambient psionic attack effect for all of their domain, plus they're surprisingly hard to find.
>>48074103
>>48074591
Here is an interesting, Planescape-relevant fact regarding elder brains from their 2e incarnation:
http://www.lomion.de/cmm/eldebrai.php
>If death is imminent, an elder brain relinquishes its hold on the Prime Material Plane and withdraws completely into the Astral Plane, where the bulk of its mass resides. Once it transports itself in this way, an elder brain loses its anchor to the prime and becomes trapped on the Astral Plane – a rogue creature without ties to its community. It is uncertain what becomes of a rogue elder brain; however, illithid communities that lose their elder brain swiftly fall apart.
Planewalkers in the Astral Plane could very well encounter the bulk of an elder brain's mass there, or perhaps a rogue elder brain who had been defeated in the Prime and now wanders aimlessly in the Astral. Perhaps such a brain could find their way into a color pool and wind up in one of the Outer Planes, or even a portal to Sigil.
>>48071342
>>48071171
Remember that Cranium Rats are, outside of Sigil, all controlled by the big elder brain god thingie, and the cranium rats of sigil probably wouldn't take too kindly to an elder brain in sigil - at the same time the elder brain would likely be able to subvert part of the cranium rat population, leading to a fairly blood cranium rat civil war under Sigil's streets.
>>48074895
I fail to see why Ilsensine, the greater god and patron deity of the illithid, would disapprove of the presence of an elder brain within Sigil, when elder brains are the epitome of illithidkind. It is not as though an elder brain poses any meaningful competition to Ilsensine.
>>48074997
>>48074895
I never got Ilsensine. I feel like she really goes against the illithid fluff. Were the illithids subservient to her when they had their multiversal world spanning empire? Making them all serve a giant brain god just feels so ... standard
>>48071859
>Prince Levistus's Iceberg
Oh god that asshole. We might have pissed him off somewhat in our game after we encountered him in the abyss, alive and very much un-frozen. We've got some form of reprieve for now, but there's no way things can be that easy to get him off our backs.
I have a "Free" Port town (Free meaning Pirate driven) with heavy connections into the Abyss. Looking to make this town free more planescapish in an effort to launch my PCs into the plane.
Any suggestions?
>Have more PS art. Too much unrelated anime stuff.
>>48076038 Ilsensine is secondary to the elder brains.
Mindflayers only pay her lip service unless they expect to be rejected by their elder brain after death.
Mindflayers who do expect that though, tey're crazy desperate to get let into Ilensine's afterlife.
>>48077523
DO Illithid petitioners look like ilithids? or do they come back as neothilids and need to be stuck in a new head?
>>48076299
Well you can never go wrong with Plague-Mort.
>>48076299
A somewhat "standard" method of connecting the town to the Abyss would be to insert into the town a portal to either Plague-Mort or the Abyss directly, but here is a better way to emphasize its "pirate port" nature.
Due to an unfortunate coincidence of topography and geography favorable for the Abyss, a historical act of great chaos and evil, the deliberate sorceries of a demon lord, or some other abstruse reason, the coast around the town effectively acts as a portal to the Abyss. By fulfilling certain conditions, a ship can qualify as "possessing the right gate-key" and sail straight into the Abyss, whether heading towards or away from the coast. A rare few ships unintentionally "possess the gate-key" and wind up in the Abyss, hapless crew and all.
The transition to the Abyss is a very subtle one, only truly noticeable once it is too late. Mortal blue seas near-imperceptibly slide into waters black and prowled by myrmixicus tanar'ri, reaved by tanar'ri corsairs, and battered by naval engagements of the Blood War.
If you wish to focus the campaign exclusively on the Abyss (at least initially), the mortal coast should connect to the Abyssian Ocean, which connects many famous Abyssal realms, from Demogorgon's to Dagon's to Malcanthet's to Yeenoghu's; you can read about this in page 109 of the Fiendish Codex I.
Alternatively, if you simply wish to let the players romp about in the Abyss before moving into other planes, the mortal coast should link up with the River Styx in the Abyss's first layer of Pazunia, perhaps into the relatively safe, succubus-governed town of Broken Reach; you can learn more of the River Styx in page 111 of the Fiendish Codex I, and Broken Reach in page 116 of the same book and pages 55-62 of Dungeon Magazine #148.
hi I'm retarded and only know PS from the game and want to know what I need to know in order to open portals to other worlds in my game
Like, what's the rundown? The quick and dirty? The "So you want to shove some Planescape into your setting: For Idiots"?
>>48059889
>tipping fedoras before it was ruined
>>48071859
Lazz was a great, even if he (she?) get's overshadowed by DiTerlizzi
>>48083486
If you would like to learn about the 2e Planescape setting through just a single book, I would recommend avoiding the original boxed set. It is not particularly vital to playing or running Planescape. If anything, it is rather unpolished and unrefined.
The single most important book for Planescape 2e is the "Planewalker's Handbook." It is the most up-to-date summary of the entire setting, useful for both players and GMs, and everyone who intends on using the setting should read through it as much as possible.
If you are interested in reading more after that, you will want "In the Cage: A Guide to Sigil," "Factol's Manifesto," and "Uncaged: Faces of Sigil" for running the City of Doors.
"Planes of Law," "Planes of Chaos," "Planes of Conflict," and "A Player's Primer to the Outlands" will acquaint you with the Outer Planes.
"Inner Planes," "Guide to the Astral Plane," and "Guide to the Ethereal Plane" should cover the remaining planes.
Those are the primary books you will want. If you wish to understand fiends and the Blood War, you should also download "Faces of Evil: The Fiends" and "Hellbound: The Blood War." Likewise, if gods and other divinities interest you, "On Hallowed Ground" should serve you well.
For portals and other planar gateways, you will want to consult pages 34-43 of the "Planewalker's Handbook." There are myriad gateways connecting the Prime Material Plane to the wider multiverse: portals leading to Sigil, portals heading to other planes, vortices to the Inner Planes, astral conduits to the Outer Planes, color pools into the Astral Plane, the World Ash Yggdrasil, Mount Olympus, the Infinite Staircase (detailed not in the "Planewalker's Handbook," but in "Tales from the Infinite Staircase") and more.
There are so many ways to physically walk from the Prime to the planes that you could write into your Prime setting whatever sort of planar gateway suits your fancy, and it would fit at least one of the types of gateways mentioned above.
>>48083486
>>48083716
For the most part, planar gateways are naturally occurring. Planescap seldom explains why any given gateway exists. Planar inhabitants accept them as a fact of life.
Why is there a two-way elemental vortex connecting the City of Brass in the Elemental Plane of Fire to a certain Prime volcano? There simply is.
Why does climbing up a specific sacred sequoia in the Prime let a mortal enter the boughs of the World Ash Yggdrasil, and from there a handful of other planes? Who cares?
Why does walking through the door of a special tavern in a mundane human town with a piece of foie gras in one hand and a thornless rose in the other activate a portal leading to the Harmonium's Barracks in the Lady's Ward of Sigil? Nobody knows.
There is one exception to this: astral conduits, detailed in pages 24-29 of the "Guide to the Astral Plane" and pages 40-41 of the "Planewalker's Handbook." Planar inhabitants generally agree on what these naturally-occurring tubes that link the Prime to the Outer Planes exist for:
1. Transporting the souls of deceased mortals from the Prime to their appropriate afterlives in the Outer Planes. (Those who die outside of the Prime must make the trip manually in soul-form, as explained in page 29 of "On Hallowed Ground." How this works for divine realms outside of the Outer Planes is an enigma.)
2. Sending divine energy from gods in the Outer Planes to their worshipers and priests in the Prime Material Plane. (How said energy gets sent to worshipers and priests elsewhere is a mystery.)
3. Theoretically, absorbing prayers from the Prime Material Plane and forwarding them off to the appropriate deity in the Outer Planes.
Conduits are invisible short of magical senses, but they are quite easy to operate: just step into one end of the tube and get send hurtling into the other end. The trip is so swift that the passenger will hardly notice that they are traveling alongside streams of mortal souls, divine energy, and possibly prayers.
>>48083711
"Robert Lazzaretti"
>>48083716
>>48083973
why thank you my good man
For the unaware.
>>48086727
http://www.oocities.org/athens/7117/faq/faq6.html#4.1.7
>Uncaged: Faces of Sigil
>p. 99 Despite being given the male symbol, Shemeshka is actually female. Ray Vallese later admitted "It's been a lifelong dream of mine to sneak TSR's first cross-dressing arcanaloth into a product." Caught in the act! If only... ;-)
Pages 72-73 of Faces of Evil: The Fiends posits all yugoloths to be hermaphrodites of both genders simultaneously, but I prefer to preserve Ray Vallese's "joke" with regards to the fox-arcanaloth that is Shemeshka.
What sort of exotic services and business establishments might one see in Sigil and other great metropolises of the planes?
Celestials, fiends, elementals, and other planar creatures tend to have different wants and needs than mortal primes; what niches could be filled for them?
>>48087988
In a game I ran the party had to visit a store that sold oozes and ooze-related products designed for people who grew ooze monsters or even intelligent oozes who needed supplies, cosmetics and quality-of-life improvements.
I called it oozing style, even if oozes aren't particularly stylish.
Page 29 of On Hallowed Ground makes it clear that when a deceased mortal's soul shakes off its memories as "memory cores" that linger within the Astral Plane before withering away over the course of millennia. Therefore, a petitioner or a petitioner-turned-outsider is usually left with no recollection of their mortal life, preserving only mannerisms, habits, speech patterns, interests, likes, and dislikes.
However, exceptions to this do exist. Page 121 of Dead Gods shows us that the tanar'ri lord Orcus recalls being "a foul wizard or a wicked priest" in life.
What sort of plot hooks and interesting events could occur as a result of a deadborn outsider recalling their mortal life, or wishing to discover details about it?
A deadborn outsider PC might seek out what they were in life, of course.
Perhaps a baatezu and a tanar'ri lock fiend-forged blades and wicked claws as part of a Blood War engagement, stare into each others' eyes (windows to the soul and such), and lower their weapons. They desert the battle together, hand in hand while sneering at one another. They were the most passionate of lovers in life, and such lingering sentiments confuse their new psyches as devil and demon.
What else could happen?
>>48088694
Did tanar'ri from Juiblex's half of Shedaklah frequent the store? What of natives of the Paraelemental Plane of Ooze?
>>48089115
The one you just gave would be amusing to deal with as an outside party.
On the other hand, mortal lives do show up in a canon adventure - Orcus' mortal form appears momentarily in Dead Gods. You could also have some fiends or outsiders consider it a form of weakness if others identify their original life, because it's give them clues about their identity and behavior. You could even do an elaborate mystery set-up where several fiends conspired to hide the knowledge of their mortal lives from each other in fear of getting stabbed in the back. This would let you steal parts of the plot from Jojolion, where the players can be unsure of just who they were.
>>48089306
I could certainly see an adventure that revolves around acquiring a blessing of memory-searching from the Titan goddess Mnemosyne (who is imprisoned within Othrys as per the "Black Acropolis" chapter of the "Vortex of Madness" adventure), plumbing the depths of the Astral Plane for the memory cores of a fiendish lord, discovering that the cores are indecipherable unless transported to the archfiend's mortal home in the Prime, and traveling to a strange crystal sphere in search of that home.
What could an interesting twist be to such an adventure, when the party finally does find the home and decrypt the memory cores?
>>48089390
The same sort of twist you use in any memory-related story. They were related to the players, the demon-lord was a good person, they don't actually have any weaknesses from their mortal life, etc etc.
>>48089438
>the demon-lord was a good person
They would have had to do something particularly heinous to count as evil upon their death and have their soul transported into the Lower Planes.
>>48077523
>>48077523
don't illithids actually just get their memories absorbed by the elder barins as opposed to acutely merging with them? It's the big elder brain secret right? Given that, wouldn't we expect their to be a tons of illithid petitioners?
>>48089979
Does that mean Elder Brains can eat Memory Cores?
>>48089979
>It's the big elder brain secret right?
Depends on the edition.
In TSR editions the illithid /does/ merge with it, but the sheer psychic weight of the conglomerate snuffs out most (or all) individuality of it's new member.
This isn't exactly a secret to the illithids, but they're all preeeeeetty confident their own minds are strong enough to mostly survive the transition.
But they're almost always overconfident about that. In practice the first few minds that started the elder brain make up the majority of it's personality.
>Given that, wouldn't we expect their to be a tons of illithid petitioners?
Illithids join the elder brain before going brain dead, and while the process of joining (usually) destroys their mind it doesn't actually kill them.
So the only illithids that actually "die" are the ones that are rejected by the elder brain or that are improperly preserved after dying far away from the elder brain.
>>48092345
They get released into the Astral when eaten.
Which faction or sect would you find it most interesting to play a character of, as they are canonically presented in the Factol's Manifesto and the various Planes of ________ boxed sets?
Which faction or sect would you find it most interesting to play a character of were it not for a certain fashion in which they are presented in the books? What is the deal-breaker for you?
Which factions and sects have the weakest write-ups and conceptual niches in your eyes?
>>48096650
I'd definitely be a sensate or xaositect. "Sitting around and shitposting" seems to be something that the chaosmen actually do, and given the amount of time I spend on anonymous imageboards it'd probably be rather compelling for me too. On the other hand, I'm a massive fan of the sensates and their philosophy and actually try to live it out a bit in my regular life.
As for interesting in a fashion not presented in the books, it'd have to be the Chaosmen. They should be a lot more diverse and have a lot more variety than just being thugs who use jumblespeak (which should be an option for some of them, not the default). There are so many ways to express/show chaos, and the chaosmen as presented are, ironically enough, incredibly predictable.
>>48096650
free leaguer. Live and let live!
>>48097934
I am a fan of the Society of Sensation as well, but primarily for their recorder/sensory stones, which are arguably among the top three most advanced pieces of "technology" available in the setting. Such devices are usually the province of futuristic or sci-fi settings, and yet here they are in an allegedly "medieval" (as "Sigil and Beyond" claims) fantasy setting.
Recorder/sensory stones have such titanic ramifications on society, and it is a disappointment how such consequences are downplayed in the setting books. With a little work, these tools could single-handedly push the Great Wheel into the information age, if not beyond that; the stones are in many ways more advanced than any video-recording technology in our world, as they capture all sensory and emotional information and can dredge up anything a person has experienced.
It is easy to see why "the Sensates are by far the richest faction in the Cage" (as per page 140 of the "Factol's Manifesto") and their factol is one of the two most politically powerful persons in Sigil (according to pages 70-71 of "Sigil and Beyond"): the recorder/sensory stones make them the foremost custodians of entertainment, education, and data alike.
I do agree with you on the Xaositects for the same reasons; they are wasted potential.
>>48098568
The sensory stones are actually really neat, but they do only work in the Civic Festhall.
On the other hand, planar society, the society of baatezu and tanar'ri and guardinals and eladrin, really doesn't need much in the way of technology - modern IT would be laughably useless to someone with the powers of a Pit Fiend or Tulani.
>>48099900
>they do only work in the Civic Festhall
Hence my statement of "with a little work" in >>48098568. There is nothing in the Factol's Manifesto that suggests that the Civic Festhall is imbued with unique and irreplicable magic, so I am inclined to think that if the Sensates truly wished to, they could build recorder/sensory stones elsewhere. The devices would simply be more prone to reverse-engineering, thus eliminating the Society's monopoly.
>modern IT would be laughably useless to someone with the powers of a Pit Fiend or Tulani
This is untrue. Regardless of edition, pit fiends and tulani have little in the way of low-cost magic for rapid, two-way transmission of data (which can be initiated even from a weak underling to a strong superior) and for accessing an akashic record's worth of information. At best, a 2e tulani could expend daily-based, minutes-long castings of their priest spells to simulate such effects.
is juiblex a tanaari or an obryth? Does he have any interest in sigil?
>>48101192
Juiblex is listed as a tanar'ri in page 66 of the Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss.
He is one of the fourteen "famous" demon lords of the Abyss, alongside Demogorgon, Orcus, Graz'zt, Baphomet, Dagon, Fraz-Urb'luu, Kostchtchie, Malcanthet, Pale Night, Pazuzu, Yeenoghu, Zuggtmoy, and the verminous aspect of the first Prince of Demons, Obox-ob.
I cannot imagine that Juiblex would be particularly interested in Sigil. He is preoccupied with a war against Zuggtmoy, demon lord of fungi, for control of Abyssal layer #222, Shedaklah (detailed in pages 144-146 of the Fiendish Codex I). Granted, he is currently winning that war.
Nothing is preventing any of the tanar'ri and other demons of Juiblex's realm from traveling to Sigil to partake in its services, of course. They might do so to gather resources for their war, or to hire mercenaries (e.g. yugoloths) to help ensure their victory.
This is a reasonably reliable source on Juiblex:
http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Juiblex
Who else has realized that almost all of the major societies of the Outer Planes are reasonably "fair" meritocracies that actually function how meritocracies are supposed to function?
Whether the factols in Sigil, the Hebdomad in Mount Celestia, the Five Companions in Elysium, the Court of Stars in Arborea, the Storm Kings in Arcadia, the Lords of the Nine in Baator, the yugoloth lords of Gehenna and the Gray Waste, or the archdemons of the Abyss, every single planar high-up is both personally powerful and a competent statesmen. All of them are qualified for their positions, and none of them achieved it simply via popularity contests or heredity alone (such processes may have helped some get where they are now, but they ultimately have the personal competence to back themselves up).
Even a brutish and bestial tanar'ri lord like Baphomet has Int 20, Wis 28, and Cha 22 in D&D 3.5; and Int 18, Wis 24, and Cha 16 in D&D 5e. It takes a sharp mind to be one of the rulers of an infinitely expansive plane (and Baphomet's layer of the Abyss is infinite on its own as per page 152 of the Fiendish Codex I).
There is nothing preventing corruption within leadership positions, but it must be reassuring to those who live in the planes that all of their rulers actually know what they are doing.
Indeed, even from the lowest rungs of society, factioneers strive to improve themselves (i.e. gain levels) and outsider exemplars seek to attain greater forms of evolution (e.g. from lantern archon to hound archon).
This is also a meritocracy. If one was to travel to a city in Mount Celestia or the Crawling City in Gehenna, one could gauge the personal competence and social position of the archons or yugoloths there by their bodies alone.
If the Outer Planes pattern themselves off the cultural norms and beliefs of the innumerable mortals of the Prime, then why are the Prime's fantasy societies usually depicted as hereditary monarchies as opposed to the pure meritocracies of the planes?
>>48102755
>If the Outer Planes pattern themselves off the cultural norms and beliefs of the innumerable mortals of the Prime,
>then why are the Prime's fantasy societies usually depicted as hereditary monarchies as opposed to the pure meritocracies of the planes?
The outer planes are literally Platonic Ideals/Forms dialed up to 11. They're about as abstracted away from how things "are" as conceptually possible.
Also, just grabbing the one's where you cite page numbers, but
>>48052675 >>48056532 >>48056787 >>48058128
>>48066294 >>48068147 >>48069605 >>48082326
>>48083716 >>48083973 >>48086808 >>48089115
>>>48098568 >>48101379 samefagging this hard
We're 123 posts deep and we only have 19 posters in the thread.
Let it die.
>>48103061
>calling 2hu on samefagging
lel
>>48102755
That's something that happens in a lot of rpgs when monsters/ruling classes are used as "advanced forms". Genie nobles are just flat out better at everything than non-noble djinni, and so on and so forth.
Of course, it's also because "having large amounts of personal power" is the only way to actually hold power in the Lower Planes. If Demogorgon wasn't the baddest demon in the Abyss, he wouldn't be able to claim and hold the title of "Prince of Demons". Besides, popularity contests can actually be real contests of power in a setting where mind control magic and charisma-enhancing enchantments/items both exist. Unlike the real world, if a tanar'ri is a manlet he never has to deal with that disqualifying him from Demon Lord status, assuming he manages to acquire the power and position.
>>48103061
>The outer planes are literally Platonic Ideals/Forms dialed up to 11. They're about as abstracted away from how things "are" as conceptually possible.
And it turns out that every society of every alignment ultimately wants a meritocracy that functions how a meritocracy is supposed to function? I suppose that makes enough sense, since it is a comforting ideal.
>>48103105
>Of course, it's also because "having large amounts of personal power" is the only way to actually hold power in the Lower Planes.
And the Upper Planes as well, judging from the qualifications of the Hebdomad, the Five Companions, and the Court of Stars. In fact, page 79 of Warriors of Heaven (a dubious source, but also the only source we have on this topic) states that any leonal of 21st level or above may challenge the current Celestial Lion to combat for rulership over Elysium, which is a surprisingly direct form of "to the strongest"-based rulership.
>Besides, popularity contests can actually be real contests of power in a setting where mind control magic and charisma-enhancing enchantments/items both exist.
Many outsiders possess a bevy of mind-affecting spell-like abilities, and would thus be savvy and check whether or not someone acting strange is a result of mental influence. Charisma-enhancing effects are more "valid," but very few outsiders across D&D editions can employ such spells or are written as wearing such items.
>>48103297
>And it turns out that every society of every alignment ultimately wants a meritocracy that functions how a meritocracy is supposed to function?
No, but they all behave optimally within their ideals. And an idealistic meritocracy is the most efficient way to get anything done.
And all of the planes are interested in getting things done. Except Limbo, I guess. And maybe Mechanus *cough*bureaucracy*cough*.
>>48103404
Secundii are stronger than quadrones, but I don't think Mechanus really counts as a meritocracy. A pentadrone is better at doing their job than a tridrone, but that isn't really because they deserved their higher rank.
>>48103404
>And all of the planes are interested in getting things done. Except Limbo, I guess.
Limbo's slaadi very much operate under a meritocracy. Page 71 of Planes of Chaos: The Book of Chaos emphasizes that slaadi respect personal strength above all. Unfortunately, social mobility is afforded only to green slaadi, who can become gray slaadi, then death slaadi, then the white and black slaadi from pages 217-219 of the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook.
Of course, this is *not* the natural course of events that should be taking place in Limbo. As per page 96 of the 3.0 Manual of the Planes, Ssendam and Ygorl not only designed the Spawning Stone, but later deliberately sabotaged it such that no other slaad could ever spawn or evolve to be more powerful than them.
>>48103494
Mechanus is a meritocracy with reversed cause-and-effect: any given promotion imbues the promotee with increased competence and statecraft.
Does Planescape have good waifus?
>>48105915
Do Succubi count?
Are Flumphs common on bytopia? The orderliness of Cloisters and general honesty of the Flumph, alongside their ability to sense telepathic communication would make them a great thing for any dealer or trader in bytopia.
I could honestly see members of the Fated even kinda idolising Flumphs as the ultimate "earn what they get, and get what they want" species, with the Flumphs never quite understanding why there's sometimes a load of evil cutthroats hanging arond their cloisters selling little plushie flumphs to other evil cutthroats.
>>48108937
I can find absolutely nothing on flumphs in the planes, so all of the following is merely my conjecture.
I cannot see Bytopia's trading grounds as an ideal habitat for flumphs. Telepathy is not particularly common amongst the inhabitants of the nearby planes of Arcadia, Mount Celestia, Elysium, the Beastlands, and the Outlands. Telepathy tends to be the province of modrons and fiends, but they would hardly come to Bytopia to actually trade there; that would happen in the gate-town of Tradegate or Sigil.
Flumphs would probably prefer the areas of the Lawful Good-leaning planes where they can feed off psionic creatures. Their cloisters would prefer the caves in Mount Celestia near the divine realm of Jazirian, the couatl greater god (see page 21 of Planes of Law: Mount Celestia), for many couatls are psionic. In Bytopia, they would enjoy the caverns in the pillars close to the Baku's Graveyard (refer to page 36 of Planes of Conflict: Liber Benevolentiae), as baku are also psionic.
The Lawful Good/Lawful Neutral plane of Arcadia does not have any notable concentrations of psionic creatures, so flumphs may find the plane less appealing, but they would be in much greater demand there. Ever since the fall of Nemausus into Mechanus, tensions between Arcadia and the Clockwork Nirvana are at an all-time high, as Planes of Law explains. The modron hierarchs are known for their extremely long-range telepathy ( http://www.lomion.de/cmm/modron.php ), and so I could see Arcadia's Storm Kings and the Harmonium recruiting flumphs to use as telepathy-tapping spies against the modron hierarchs in Mechanus.
>>48109414
What about hanging out on Limbo? Sure the relam is chaotic neutral, almost opposite of their natural alignment, but it's got the githzerai and probably the highest concentration of psionics in the outer planes - the only issue is how does their psionic feeding thing affect the stability of githzerai citadels and towns in the shifting plane?
>>48110166
>but it's got the githzerai and probably the highest concentration of psionics in the outer planes
No, that would be Ilsensine's divine realm in the Outlands, the Caverns of Thought, detailed in pages 32-33 of the original Planescape Campaign Setting boxed set's "Sigil and Beyond."
Of course, a psychic-vulnerable flumph in the Caverns of Thought would most likely be battered and zombified by Ilsensine's thought-waves.
I cannot see why flumphs would opt to feed on githzerai and githzerai in Limbo rather than the much safer caverns near Uroboros in Mount Celestia and near the Baku's Graveyard in Bytopia, which would match their alignment.
The problem with these threads is that they're system agnostic and nobody knows what anyone is talking about.
>telepathic shroud
>immune to sensing emotions, reading its thoughts, all divination spells
pretty OP, make a good courier for anything that can't be trusted to Magic Mouth.
>>48113265
Mundane coercion/tricking.
>>48113316
yeah but you gotta find the right Flumph, then do the coercion, not like a wizard can just step up on a messenger who he's scried and found is the one with the right message and use his "make magic mouth talk" spell and get it even more easily.
>>48113194
Just about everyone playing PS these days is using
some kind of 3.P product. If you're using a really rules-lite or more abstract kind of system, then you still want to actually know a bunch of the 3.P rules anyway to understand the basic assumptions of the setting.
>>48117115
d20 is basically the horrible Javascript of game design, you have to be familiar enough to know how it's fucked something else up in a better system.
>>48109414
I don't know too much about the rest, but the idea of elite flumph espionage agents showing up in a political intrigue between the Storm Kings, the Hardheads and Mechanus is hilarious.
>>48113265
>>48113316
>>48115664
D&D 5e is the only edition of the game wherein flumphs are immune to all divination effects, which would be impressive if D&D 5e did not also have a simple Nondetection spell render the target immune to divinations.
>>48117115
>>48117370
I have been running Planescape in a variety of Fate-, PbtA-, and Strike!-based systems for roughly a year and a half by now. Understanding 2e, 3.X, and 5e mechanics is indeed important for grasping setting assumptions and conceits.
>>48118293
It is really quite an "only in Planescape" scenario.
>>48120498
>It is really quite an "only in Planescape" scenario.
Spelljammer antics tend to one up Planescape antics.
>>48120582
Fortunately, the 2e Planescape stance is that the Phlogiston is part of the Prime, and crystal spheres exist.
Pages 4-5 of the original Planescape Campaign Setting boxed set's A Player's Guide to the Planes says:
>The Prime Material is just one plane, but it contains lots of individual _worlds_. A world may be only a single planet or it may be a complete system with planets, moons, asteroids, comets, stars, and more. Each world is sealed like a bubble in its own _crystal sphere_, and that sphere is suspended within an amber stream called the _phlogiston_. (Those that know can travel from sphere to sphere through the phlogiston by a process known as spelljamming, but that’s neither here nor there.)
Page 32 of the Planewalker's Handbook backs this up:
>Though planars look down upon primes and their clueless ways, the Prime Material Plane cannot be completely disregarded. It's as wondrous and infinite a plane as any, with an endless variety of places to explore. A countless number of prime-material worlds float within separate vast crystal spheres, which are themselves contained in an ocean of fiery material called pholgiston [sic].
Dohwars (and their "deathsquealer" space pigs), the gonn, the giff, and absurd crystal spheres such as Herdspace and Herospace can all appear in a Planescape game. In fact, given how Planescape campaigns take a trek to the Prime sooner or later, one may as well use Spelljammer material there.
Is it possible to do low fantasy, low magic Planescape?
>>48122473
You could do something set in Sigil's hive, but there'd be a hell of a lot of fantasy stuff going on in the background.
>>48122473
>>48122760
The most "low magic" one could get in Planescape are the various worlds of the Prime that have a dearth of magic, the crystal spheres that are devoid of magic altogether (e.g. Salzarspace from Spelljammer's "Under the Dark Fist" adventure), and the concentric rings of the Outlands which progressively bar off higher and higher degrees of mystical abilities, but not magic items.
Low fantasy would be nigh-impossible in Planescape anywhere outside of the Prime. The planes operate on non-mundane laws of reality.
>>48105915
>>48106181
Waifus, not whores.
>>48123655
You forget that the area around the spire (the big thing Sigil floats just above) is actively free of magic, so adventures in or around the spire are low magic - low fantasy is pretty much impossible for planescape, it's a lot like Lovecraft's Dreamquest stories where you'll bump into creatures that would, even in a usual high fantasy game, rarely meet but in a far more casual fashion than you'd ever expect - planescape is the sort of setting where a party might come across one of the high demonic hosts of the pit while walking down a back alley, but a fight doesn't break out because the host is just taking a casual shit and gives you enough time to politely back out of the alley and find some other way to cross town.
>>48125552
But he did mention the magic less parts of the Outlands. It's still high fantasy because you have rimland and concordat dragons and magic items everywhere.
>>48126624
Rilmani, phone
>>48125552
Does Sigil really have designated shitting streets though?
>>48125552
The Spire does, in fact, rise out of the innermost ring of the Outlands, which I had mentioned in >>48123655.
It is worth noting that although all magic and divine powers are abrogated near the base of the Spire, *magic items are completely unaffected*. The 1e Manual of the Planes, the 2e Planescape Campaign Setting boxed set's Sigil and Beyond, the 2e Player's Primer to the Outlands, the 3.0 Manual of the Planes, and the 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide all make no mention whatsoever of magic items being affected by the Outlands.
Indeed, Chapter 7 of Tales of the Infinite Staircase clearly shows magic items being used at the base of the Spire (such as a room in the rilmani library of Timaresh that replicates Unseen Servant and Light spells, as per page 105 of that book), and page 91 of the Monster Manual V contains a monster that uses a magic item within 100 miles of the Spire.
Is this game real? >>48128834
I really enjoy these threads. Thanks for making them OP.
>>48129731
You are welcome.
You can show your thanks more aptly by presenting me with setting-related questions whose answers I can then research and present.
Unfortunately, I must sleep quite soon, and thus you will have to wait for such answers.
Favorite outsider races, /tg/? What are they?
>>48131516
I thought /tg/'s favorite "race" of outsiders was always succubi.
Personally I'm a sucker for eladrin, the Planescape ones (not that 4e crap).
>>48131516
I am a fan of the guardinals. They are kind-hearted animal-people who live in an edenic wonderland, yet they often charge forth into dens of evil to make a powerful difference outside of their home. They are both heartwarming and heroic.
>>48131844
Eladrin are in an awkward position, as the only 2es sources they were thoroughly detailed in were the Monstrous Compendium 2 (a good writeup) and Warriors of Heaven (a terribly-written and self-contradictory book). The eladrin were not mentioned a single time in all of Planes of Chaos, not even in the Arborea section, because they did not exist yet. Thus, the majority of information we have on them comes from 3.X.
I find the eladrin as they are canonically presented to be bland. They are little more than whimsical faerie-people (to the point wherein they are explicitly referred to as "faeries" at times) with a deep love for passion and freedom, yet they live in a courtly society with strangely strict rules and an undisputed queen whom all eladrin respect and serve under.
I would prefer it if eladrin society was more akin to that of the tanar'ri: hordes upon hordes of disorganized sylvan folk rallying under innumerable lords. Perhaps they might have a "Queen of the Eladrin" stronger than the rest, but she would not be universally dominant over all of them.
It would also be more ideal if their nature as energy-beings was played up more often. Eladrin could represent the concept of "energy" in both a metaphorical sense (passion, vitality, the joy of life) and a physical one (the bright colors of a ghaele, the raging fire of a firre, the rushing waves of a noviere). They might express themselves in exaggerated and pompous fashions, by mercurially alternating between their two forms and taking on features of their "inactive" form for emphasis, like a happy ghaele in elven form bursting with spiraling rainbows.
The eladrin should also have a more detailed relationship with the elves, Greeks, and fey of Arborea.
>>48134328
>>48134328
Is there anything worth salvaging from Warriors of Heaven?
A bunch of the rules it imposes on celestials just make the entire setting worse, like them being unable to help people out for no real reason (and the bizarre punishments involved).
>>48136554
The strangest thing about Warriors of Heaven are that the eladrin are the most law-bound of all celestials, which is quite unintuitive. Guardinals and eladrin being liveborn-only and mortal in lifespan (less long-lived than elves) is also nonsensical; consider that the default eladrin imprisonment term of 1,001 years exceeds the longest possible eladrin lifespan.
Celestials (eladrin especially) should be somewhat less restricted in their travels across the planes, there should most certainly be deadborn guardinals and eladrin, and guardinals and eladrin should be immortal.
The most interesting ideas to come out of Warriors of Heaven are the Celestial Concordance, the Parliament of the Concordance, the Celestial Tribunal, the Empyreal Citadel(s), the Tower of the War Triumphant, and everything surrounding Nillis-Thur and the quesar. All of these directly concern how celestials interact with each other, cooperate, and sometimes clash with one another. These all tie together the Upper Planes into a cohesive module of the setting full of plot-hook-laden geopolitics. It is simply good worldbuilding to have different parts of a setting come together and mingle.
>>48139838
Is there any information about the kind of culture the eladrin have? Are they basically just super CG elves?
>>48142361
Warriors of Heaven is a dubious source of information on the eladrin. Thus, you are left with their Monstrous Compendium 2 entry ( http://www.lomion.de/cmm/eladrin.php ), their sections in the 3.5 Book of Exalted Deeds, and what few pieces of scattered lore for them exist in the Fiendish Codex I and pages 57-67 of Dungeon #149.
The history between the eladrin and the Abyss is somewhat interesting (particularly the situation with Pale Night in Androlynne), but I cannot see why the eladrin would have had so great an enmity towards the obyriths and the tanar'ri to begin with, rather than the tyrannous devils of Baator.
Pages 20-21 of Uncaged: Faces of Sigil present us a Prime-racist firre eladrin, but she is not a good example of her people due to being a chaotic neutral, fallen celestial.
You would be right in saying that eladrin, as canonically presented, are "basically just super CG elves" with substantial faerie overtones and a deep love for the nebulous concept of "freedom." They are not very fleshed-out at all.
What does everyone think about expanding the Believers of the Source's themes to cover not only blacksmithing, but alchemy as well?
The traditions and philosophies of Hermetic alchemy tie in well with the Godsmen. They both involve spiritual journey of self-refinement through metaphors of craftsmanship and transmutation (e.g. nigredo, albedo, citrinitas, and rubedo).
Additionally, this makes for a very good analogue to the eponymous Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azoth
>Known as the Universal Solvent, Universal Cure, and Elixir of Life (elixir vitae), the Azoth is said to embody all medicines, as well as the first principles of all other substances. The 16th century alchemist Paracelsus was said to have achieved the Azoth, and in portraits of him carrying his sword, the inscription "Azoth" can be seen on the pommel or handle. It is said he kept the infallible remedy handy in a concealed compartment in the handle in case he needed it in an emergency or if he was injured in a fight. He said it was the "counter poison" to any physical, mental, or spiritual threat.
>As the Universal Life Force, the Azoth is not only the animating energy (spiritus animatus) of the body but is also the inspiration and enthusiasm that moves the mind. In the cosmos and within each of us, the Azoth is the mysterious evolutionary force responsible for the relentless drive towards physical and spiritual perfection. Thus, the concept of the Azoth is analogous to the light of nature or mind of God.
>Because the Azoth contains the complete information of the whole universe, it is also used as another word for the Philosopher's Stone. One of the hints for the preparation of the Stone is Ignis et Azoth tibi sufficiunt ("Fire and Azoth are sufficient"). There are scores of esoteric drawings depicting the Azoth and how it is used in the Great Work of alchemy. Examples include the Azoth of the Philosophers by Basil Valentine and the Hieroglyphic Monad of Dr. John Dee.
A good fit, no?
>>48131516
>>48134328
>I am a fan of the guardinals. They are kind-hearted animal-people who live in an edenic wonderland, yet they often charge forth into dens of evil to make a powerful difference outside of their home. They are both heartwarming and heroic.
In addition to this, a favorite amongst the players I have GMed Planescape for is the arcanaloths. Perhaps this due to how I present them as cute fox/canine-kemonomimi with fluffy tails galore, rather than as full-blown canid furries.
Arcanaloths have been the single most heavily-represented specific outsider subspecies in my games. Two PCs have been proper arcanaloths, and one PC was half-arcanaloth, half-leonal. One of the PCs I GM for is an arcanaloth-turned-daemon-lord whose foremost vassals include a foxgirl arcanaloth and a dogboy arcanaloth; the latter is a thoroughly mind-controlled slave whom the PC walks around on a leash on all fours.
