>Five editions in
>Martials still get shafted
How long will it take WotC to realize that magic cannot be balanced against not-magic? Magic is a gamechanger. When trying to balance them, you're effectively trying to balance a WW2 machine gunner and a Roman legionaire: no matter how big you make his shield and many pila you give him, the machine gunner only needs a few rounds to kill him. Hell, often just one bullet will do the trick.
Personally I believe that for the inevitable 6th edition, all martials should simply be made gishes, with superficial and highly specialized knowledge of magic compared to the full casters.
Thoughts?
>>47664301
Nig just move on, I did, sure Palladium games isn't exactly balanced, but at least everyone is relatively on the same level, and the makers of the game don't pretend that there's no problem.
That or just find a gm who allows 3rd party stuff to fill the power gaps.
Make them anime. An anime fighter can beat a machine gun, he would just jump dodge the bullets and get closer and closer the more he dodges.
Like Neo from Matrix without the mind powers shit.
>>47664301
>magic cannot be balanced against not-magic
False.
>>47664301
In 4e, the best four classes in the game were three martial classes and wizard
I don't understand why martials aren't allowed to become mythic and magical in power level in a game about myth and magic. A fighter being able to wrestle a dragon or a thief who sneaks so well they can shadow meld fits in just fine with a typical high level D&D wizard or druid.
>>47664301
> This fucking thread again
>>47664301
>>Five editions in
>>Martials still get shafted
Only played the last three, haven't you?
It's okay to admit it by the way, there's nothing wrong with it. Most people hardly have the time in life to play A edition let alone all five of them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwRix1p9sDY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBRfThQIZYo
Pick one and only.second one is better, 4th edition did nothing wrong
>>47664431
Martials were getting shafted hard in AD&D, bro. Don't let nostalgia blind you.
>>47664301
>$current_year
>it's still "martial vs. casters" false dichotomy
The problem isn't that martials are weaker than wizards - that's just a symptom of it.
The problem is that the level system is completely broken.
Two characters of the same level, regardless of whether they are PC or NPC or they got shafted by "3d6 down the line lottery", regardless of their choice of class or starting equipment, should be roughly equivalent in power, otherwise the level system isn't working as intended.
>>47664370
Making D&D like anime would solve a lot of problems, now that you mention it.
>Martials are on par with magic users because fighting spirit inherited will of all the victims of evil or some bullshit
>Martials get useful out of combat abilities like sensing killing intent or sensing power levels
>Often they have an in-world explanation for the stupidly high power levels D&D tends to reach
>Battle academies of various kinds are a thing, which in-universe justifies different classes (you unironically have mage academies, knight academies, rogue academies etc.)
>>47664413
I mean just make the memeloving fucks we call martials be able to jump, they don't need to wrestle a dragon, just let them jump high and do other cool shit to be quite literally on par with zards.
Magic is imaginary and only has to obey the rules you invent for your game/setting. If you're having trouble balancing magic with non-magic, consider revising the rules of magic to bring them more in line with what you want.
>>47664301
It's only a big issue in one of those editions. The others have a much smaller gap, or nonexistent ones.
Even that only accounts for the top-level casters as well. 3.5 had a bunch of caster classes that weren't nearly as strong as Wizards were.
>>47664413
Pretty much. But then you'd get people going "but then it's just MAGIC." Well, so what if it is? Give different classes different magic schools they can get or specialize in. Thieves can get illusion spells and misdirect people and turn invisible. Fighters could start summoning combat powers that harden armor and cause weapons to bite more or impact harder. Imagine a bard with enough charisma to be able to charm probability itself to give himself and his buddies better chances.
>dndfags stopped posting years ago
>this faggot had to make a thread
Little obsessed there, mate.
>>47664454
Again, this only happens if you look at the rules and NEVER PLAY THE GAME.
In practice, as long as the party doesn't start at level 8 or something Wizards don't get that powerful until WAY later. Most people in here can barely manage to keep a group together for longer then three months at the most, and realistically unless you were playing EVERY SINGLE DAY it would take a long-ass time to even get to that level.
Leveling up was a fucking ORDEAL for everyone in older editions. You weren't guaranteed a level up every few sessions.
And further the more powerful spells had casting times and of the Wizard was hit ONCE in raw they lost the spell, no save.
OP, I believe you do not play D&D at all. In fact, your post reeks of one whose sole experience with RPGs is taking about it on 4chan. Everybody who plays D&D knows that magic does as much and as little as the authors decide. Even edition with the biggest imbalance, by all accounts, has "magical" classes that are considered as weak or weaker than a Fighter, and "martial" classes that are considered more powerful than the majority of spellcasting classes. See: the Truenamer, the Healer, the Warlock, and the Dragonfire Adept, and compare to a Warblade.
In short: OP is a faggot and sucks so many dicks that he has no time to play any games.
>>47664454
The strongest character in my group's AD&D party is the Paladin who rolled well on exceptional Strength. The second is the barbarian style Fighter who is using a greatsword.
The casters in the group are often best off using healing spells as the cleric or minor utility or AoE spells to clear rooms of really weak enemies. In an actual fight, the Fighters do all the heavy lifting, while Casters tend to be too limited to contribute a lot.
>>47664553
>Problems inherent in the rules magically go away once you start putting them into practice.
Yeah, no.
>>47664563
> Warlock
> Weak
Are you insane? It's by no means wizard, but it's not healer tier by far.
>>47664532
>mfw ask to use stuff from Tome of Battle and get told to get my animu bullshit away from his table, and rest of the party is a Ninja/Monk, a Samurai and a Shugenja.
>>47664618
I think you just need to accept that your years of screaming not to like what you do not like are at an end and move on
People have migrated out and tried your pet system and are now going back to dnd.
>>47664651
When has this ever happened with a dm who was not already a complete shitfuck to begin with?
>>47664532
This. Why can thieves become invisible but fighters don't get a single little utility spell?
>>47664648
I was listing magical classes as weak or weaker than a Fighter, not weak magical classes equal to each other in power level. Yes, a Warlock is stronger than a Healer, and for that matter a Healer is stronger than a Truenamer. All three, however, are weak.
>>47664469
half of those aren't anime they're just the sort of things warriors did in mythology and folklore that got nerfed because LotR is a low magic setting that somehow got confused with actual folklore
if gygax and pals went with actual myth instead of trying to balance the party of normals with the single doctor manhattan style demigod in the story we'd be taking dudes who can duel armies and split mountains with a single sword swing for granted
>>47664301
The way I see it, there are two possible solutions to the Martials/Caster imbalance:
>Let martials go full-on mythological hero
>Cripple the fuck out of casters
If you want to homebrew your own solution, or play a different game, or even make your own game, go for one of these.
Additionally, I suggest stop making this thread every 10 minutes. It won't help the game's imbalance, but I'd prefer it if we didn't have this fucking thread every goddamn day Jesus fucking Christ.
>>47664659
Not even the guy you're arguing with, just pointing out your argument is stupid.
By all means, play any system you enjoy. Just acknowledge that it has inherent flaws, and don't try to bullshit people by saying that they go away once you start playing.
>>47664301
>>47664717
>Additionally, I suggest stop making this thread every 10 minutes. It won't help the game's imbalance, but I'd prefer it if we didn't have this fucking thread every goddamn day Jesus fucking Christ.
This. Seriously, we've been having this bait up
for a week now.
>>47664673
A GM that I occasionally play one-shots with is rather reasonable most of the time, but rages harder than tumblr feminists when he thinks someone is trying to sneak "animubullshit" into his games.
>>47664301
Martials got shafted in one edition, anon.
5e works as a team game quite well, 4e worked as an ensemble of superheroes extremely well, and 2e and basic pretty much required martials for rocket tag at any level versus difficult enemies.
>>47664618
Yeah, because that's exactly what I said.
NO, fuckwit. I'm saying that higher-level play was much less common.
It was indeed a flaw (there ARE no flawless systems), but frequently a flaw that didn't come up in actual play.
Compare it to this; say there's a game with a class or career or path that is sub-par, which is widely known by everyone so very few people play it. Within this sub-class however is an ability that is pretty broken but extremely situational and only comes up when that situation happens so in practice most people never even ran into it.
That's what the caster flaw was in old editions; a limited condition that only came up in very specific situations that frequently rarely came up in practical play because most of the situational circumstances never come up for most people.
But really; you're not here to argue, are you? You're here to troll. You won't cite instances of actual play with details in the rules, you won't cite the rules themselves, you won't talk about the rules, you won't support your argument, you'll use generalized and meaningless statements that could apply not just to D&D but every traditional game in existence when applied correctly.
You don't HAVE an actual group to play with so you come on here and bitch about rules because it's literally the closest thing you can get to playing a /tg/ related P&P game.
And you know what? There's nothing wrong with that. It's HARD to get four to five guys together for two to three hours these days, and then they all need to be into this increasingly niche hobby that isn't exactly welcoming and isn't exactly easy to get into.
>>47664563
>Truenamer
True, though that's because the class is literally broken, in the sense that it doesn't work at all.
>Healer
Do you even prestige class?
>Warlock
>Bad
>Dragonfire adept
They don't even have spells, but dragon invocations that are spelllike effects and very limited in number.
>Compare to Warblade
You mean that one class that was tacked on in the last book that everyone hates because it's the book of Weeaboo Fightan Magic? I'll give credit where it's due: if all martials went the route of ToB the imbalance would be a lot lighter.
>>47664301
How about:
>reduce range of spells
>reduce damage of spells
>make all spells full round actions
>>47664726
How did that fighter make cracks in the floor? Concrete blocks have over 300 hp per cubic meter so that one must be doing over 600 damage per swing. Fighters OP pls nerf.
>>47664835
Or, let Martials Full Attack as a Standard Action. Spellcasters get spells that deal multiple die worth of damage as a standard action, so Fighters should be able to dump all their attacks in a Standard Action also.
>>47664851
They're magical floorboards made extra weak (but still able to carry a fighter's bodyweight and armor without cracking) purely to mock the fighter. It's supposed to confer the message "Look how strong you are! Such a shame you can't hit me!".
Casters win once again.
>>47664830
>You mean that one class that was tacked on in the last book that everyone hates because it's the book of Weeaboo Fightan Magic?
First off, I believe this is a myth. I have yet to meet a person who hates Tome of Battle, and online it seems like people talk about how other people dislike the book, but no-one claims to dislike the book himself.
Second, whether people are fans of it or not does not negate the fact of its existence, which is a perfect counter to the OP's faggotry.
>>47664937
Well, the fact that it was tacked on in the end and barely carried over to fifth edition does prove that as a trend, martials get shafted. If the ToB style was carried over to 5th edition, it'd be close to perfect.
>>47664906
You mean, like they can in 5e?
>>47664809
Goddamn, you are primo mad about someone poking a hole in your dumb argument.
No, I'm nope going to argue with you, mainly because you've already shut out anything I've got to say, legit or not, because I dared to pick on your precious little system.
Better anons than I have torn apart D&D on every level imaginable, but the fans are on such a level of denial that it could have scorpions in the book and they'd defend it.
Keep being a salty little bitch. It's fucking delicious.
>>47665026
I'm pretty sure it does have scorpions in the book. Or, at least the MM does.
>>47664726
This episode made me laugh but it still hurt.
>>47664809
>but frequently a flaw that didn't come up in actual play.
Except it does come into play, very frequently. The biggest example of this is D&D 3.5e. Let's take the Druid and the Fighter.
The Druid is a decent melee combatant, has spells, and an animal companion. If this animal companion is a wolf or one of the other objectively superior choices, he gets an animal companion that trumps the fighter, and will continue to trump him for quite a few levels. By the time the fighter catches up to the animal companion (that grows progressively stronger along with the druid so this might take a while), the druid's repetoire of spells has gotten so powerful, so diverse and so numerous that he can easily solo encounters.
The fighter isn't just weaker than the druid, he's useless. He is entirely replaced by a druid's CLASS FEATURE. And that's not even touching the cleric, who with a handful of spells can make himself a better fighter than the fighter. Of course he could also use his buffs on the fighter buuuuut
1. Some buffs like divine power are personal only
2. Why? He could easily assume the role of frontline fighter, freeing up a party slot for a druid or a wizard or another powerful class that isn't dependent on magical handouts.
The problem isn't who can beat who, the problem is that martials have become literally useless. A waste of space, no better than a fucking pack donkey.
>>47665135
>Except it does come into play, very frequently
You quote a 3.5 example.
I'm taking about 2e/AD&D.
My entire post and conversation was about that, actually.
>>47665026
Dude, ALL systems of D&D are flawed.
What are you, fucking new?
>>47665160
You realize that at no point in either of your post did you specify that
Can someone PLEASE FUCKING DELETE THESE FUCKING TROLL THREADS ALREADY?!
God DAMN.
>>47664301
>>47664301
>magic cannot be balanced against not-magic?
This is only the case when you're taking your inspiration for magic users from bullshit legendary fiction, but taking your inspiration for martials from what's "realistic".
Especially when your definition of "realistic" is "my fat cheeto-devouring hands couldn't catch a mouse after I tied the cord around my wrist, so clearly a trained soldier with the maximum possible human dexterity couldn't do the same with a sword hilt".
>>47665183
Hrm. Apologies.
I was saying that while casters have always been more powerful at higher levels (especially in 3.X which was actually designed to be unbalanced from the ground-up), the higher levels were vastly harder to get to in 2e/AD&D.
To some degree saves working differently and the harsh nature of casting times were also pretty severe limitations as well.
>>47664713
>if gygax and pals went with actual myth instead of trying to balance the party of normals with the single doctor manhattan style demigod in the story we'd be taking dudes who can duel armies and split mountains with a single sword swing for granted
Don't blame Gygax, he was strictly against taking the brakes off wizards and letting things become, and I quote, "a weird wizard show."
>>47665160
>>47664301
>The irony of accompanying this post with a picture of a caster who can cast literally one spell, and then passes out and becomes utterly useless for the rest of the day
This was deliberate, right?
>>47664830
I've never encountered someone who disliked tome of battle unless he was some kind of "Muh anime cancer boogeyman" faggot grognard not worth dealing with anyways.
And all those people were probably trolls on the internet.
>>47664469
5e lets fighters do that power level thing in a way, though.
>>47665220
While that's different from 3.X and onward, that's not a good solution. What you're basically saying to the fighter and the wizard is "You get to have fun and be useful now, you get to have fun and be useful later". That's probably a large part of why casters were buffed in later editions, but they went too far and it backfired.
>>47665235
Not that guy, but
>>47664454 and >>47664553
were the start of the conversation, which was clearly about 2e to begin with.
>>47664301
>How long will it take WotC to realize that magic cannot be balanced against not-magic?
But it can, though. Casters that can do everything because lolmagic and martials that can't do anything that would be "unrealistic" can't be balanced in the same game. Learn the difference.
>>47664469
Full anime fighters are the future of D&D
They can balance them, they just need to make it clear you aren't just joe shmoe with a sword. Martials should be demigods and heroes capable of feats beyond that of mortal. Think Hercules and Perseus. Beowulf and Thor.
>>47665253
I actually agree in all honesty.
It was just a much easier problem to fix back then then it was now, especially since the way THAC0 and AC worked meant even WITH spells and stuff Wizards tended to have relatively low AC and were fairly easy to hit, and their extremely low HP was never NOT a problem.
Also the lack of a poorly thought out pseudo-tactical battle map style of moment and the implicit ability of GM's to adjudicate rules based on the needs of their group rather then a giant mess of core rules rules that tries to apply hard rulings to everything and fails miserably meant a GM could use simple things like numbers against Wizards and booby-traps against them pretty well.
Wizards in AD&D were arguably even more dangerous then 3.X given how much frailer everyone was compared to later editions, but even MORE emphasis was placed on perpetration and so they were most useful in situations that they had already planned for but could quite literally be useless outside of them.
I would say it was actually Clerics who were the better class; they leveled up faster, could equip better armor an weapons (equipping better armor being 90% of what made characters stay alive at any level) and has spells which while not necessarily as good at ENDING the fight they were more generally useful and better at helping you SURVIVE the fight.
In addition a belt of ogre's strength could let them be reasonably good damage-dealers on top of it because their weapons were at least doing d6's and their better armor and shields meant they could stand up front and not immediately die.
>>47664590
Yeah, but Paladins be default basically had to have the most awesome stats in the entire party almost.
>>47664301
Megumin is mai waifu.
>>47665628
Yeah, but he was only a Paladin because he rolled awesome stats in the first place. If he hadn't rolled great charisma and was just a Fighter instead? He'd still be doing fairly well.
Both he and the Fighter consistently survive fights and kill enemies in droves. Any casters that get played have either died really easily or had to sit back and hide while occasionally picking things off with darts.
Low AC and low hitpoints leaves them extremely vulnerable.
>>47665675
True that.
Somebody on /tg/ once said why Paladins were always the more superheroic of characters in older D&D stuff, and that's usually because in older D&D Paladins were basically all examples of superior human beings.
>>47665732
Yeah. The group always jokes that he's actually from Krypton. It's a mix of having solid class features on top of the already good Fighter baseline, along with needing to have really high stats to be one at all.
>>47664693
If we're looking back at the influences for each class type, wizards were scholars, thieves were specialists from the peasant classes, and fighters were knights.
What does that bring to the table other than having a coat of arms and the title of "Sir"?
>>47665650
She's only 13 you sick fuck.
>>47665786
>What does that bring to the table other than having a coat of arms and the title of "Sir"?
The time, nutrition, equipment, and support staff to train into a murder machine.
>>47664301
Just don't play D&D
The thread should never have moved beyond these golden words of advice, of course the game designers at WotC are terrible.
>>47664301
People who thought they could work magic in real life weren't flying about throwing fireballs and shooting lightning and *teleporting behind u* though.
They thought they were doing shit like cursing someone and all of their descendants, blessing dwellings to keep out evil spirits, curing and inflicting disease, interpreting omens, having visions, entering the spirit world to commune with their dead ancestors and shit.
In a game where that's what's meant by "magic" surely there'd be plenty of room for characters who are just good at stabbing things? Although that's not really a solution you can apply to D&D at this point, obviously. Point is it's not impossible for casters to be balanced with fighters.
>>47665832
That's legal in Japan.
>>47664726
>Priest was already half dead, almost asleep by default, doesn't even try
>1HKs the archer with a single save or die spell
>Wizard just flies and casts similar bullshit, giving the knight similar chances
The most unfortunate thing that happened to the girls was that they were forced to play 3.5
Ok guys, frame the argument.
The traditional martial/caster disparity argument is not about every class being able to function independently, it's about martial classes losing their niche entirely. That was the discussion for 3.5, which shits all over that with CODzilla stuff and polymorph and summoning. This is solely 3.pf issues.
The newish CMD seems to be on a different trend framing the debate as "a martial character should be able to counter magic or disadvantages like flying creatures or resistance without equipment, a wizard buddy, or fiat." That's different because it goes beyond genre conventions and filling a niche. This is a more pervasive problem but isn't experienced by most players.
Finally there is a small percentage that want fighters to go above and beyond and have the utility and the combat supremacy and casters to be shitty 3.5 demigods still. This I will just never understand, and they should just play the one game catering to them instead of Pathfinder (Fantasy Craft).
>>47664301
>How long will it take WotC to realize that magic cannot be balanced against not-magic?
No, it actually can, they're just not really willing to do what it would take to make that happen.
>>47665221
>Don't blame Gygax, he was strictly against taking the brakes off wizards and letting things become, and I quote, "a weird wizard show."
He could have saved us. We should have listened.
>>47665893
On a federal level. However, all prefectures have their own laws raising it above that, making it not 13 by any effective measure.
And still: she's only 13, you sick fuck.
>>47665961
In some areas of Mexico age of consent is 12
>>47665897
There's levels to it. It's basically a matter of martials being unable to really do anything, and casters being able to do everything, including be better martials.
The basic way to fix this is to at least remove the ability for casters to be better martials. That at least gives martials some niche, but casters are still going to be better in almost every other way, and since you can win a fight without being a martial, it still makes their niche rather pointless.
Countering magic or disadvantages assumes a competitive game rather than a cooperative one, though martials are still reliant on magic for taking out things like dragons that can fly. Allowing high level martials to jump very well would help fix this.
Then there's the people who see it that if casters are allowed to do everything, martials should also be allowed to do everything.
I see it as something that needs to just be evened out. Martials need to be given things they can do to contribute meaningfully in a variety of ways, even if those ways are mundane, and casters need to be more limited so that while casters as a whole might be able to do a lot of stuff, a single class or character will be much more limited and narrow in their focus, preventing them from simply solving all of the party's problems.
>>47665995
That explains why all anime girls give birth to latin half breeds
5e attempted to solve a lot of the problems in ways notably different than I would have liked them solved. See, magic at it's core should have versatility. I liked that abut 3.5. What I didn't like is how pathetic every non-magic person was in comparison. If you're trying to make a game for everyone, you can't say "But you can't become legendary in your abilities and do near-impossible things because that's not realistic!" When their friends are causing earthquakes and summoning armies at high levels. 5e seemed to want to solve the problem by nerfing magic to make it less "broken" and exploitable to do crazy creative things, so they would be more on-par with the non-magics. But I'm a little sad that that's how they chose to do it. The way I see it, the "unbalance" problem is really an "outpacing" problem that shouldn't happen if we were deriving from actual fantasy stories. Magic is supposed to be able to do wondrous things in most of them, but take years to learn and master, to the point that powerful wizards are old men. If that were the case in D&D, there would be no problems, because it all comes from wanting the wizards to have access to incredible powers faster.
>>47664301
The real problem isn't that Fighters are not good at what they do, the problem is that DnD magic has NO DOWNSIDES, and you can easily pick spells that are very effective with no risk of failure. You don't even have to give your opponent a saving through, you can just drop a forcecage and say "I spent my round to do a thing, you are now out of the fight. I didn't have to roll for it, there was no chance of failure, and there is nothing you can do to stop me unless you are a wizard too and prepared a counterspell or a teleport. Have fun."
Meanwhile, every level of fighter has at least a 1 in 20 chance of missing their opponent, and against an equal enemy will have to land multiple hits in order to bring an enemy down.
So one of two things needs to happen. Either Fighters need to be able to RAW DAMAGE an enemy to death in a single turn, making fights into rocket tag, or wizards need to have either less effective spells, all spells need to have a significant chance of failure, or using magic consistently has some kind of payback or downside.
Like, even something as simple as all spells costing, in addition to everything else, an amount of hp equal to the spell level would be a step in the right direction. That turns casting spells into a potentially dangerous decision even at higher levels, given that spellcasters general don't have the largest HP pools.
>>47666069
I like how WHFRP did it. Each spells has a chance of going very wrong, potentially maiming casters making magic much more incidental. It probably isn't the answer for D&D (What you said is more in line), but it it another way other systems handle magic.
>>47666063
Correction, I was wrong to say "no problems". I actually see why they didn't do it this way, because it would nerf the mages' combat ability heavily. I think that might be what is required for true balance though. It would just make it less fun for wizards when they're in fights.
>>47666099
>Each spells has a chance of going very wrong, potentially maiming casters making magic much more incidental.
Can anyone tell me about more systems like this? I like fickle, dangerous magic in fantasy.
>>47666069
I have to agree.
Magic power isn't only a problem of balance it's a problem of having demi-gods in an RPG and trying to do anything without them destroying it with "I cast x"
>>47666099
Exactly. DH has the same approach with psykers: very powerful abilities, but its so dangerous that only and idiot would use it carelessly.
The downside to that system, though, was that the Psyker was as much a liability to the rest of the party as to themselves. Nothing is more infuriating than the Psyker deciding to cast Light in order to see better in a dim hallway and suddenly going full demonhost, derailing the adventure and killing the entire party.
Its only something like a 1 in 500 chance to happen, but eventually its gonna and the game is basically over unless you are speced out in heavy specialty weapons.
>>47665786
Education, wealth, influence, connections, property, and more.
>>47666119
Various Warhammer RPGs
>>47666198
I thought I heard of one called "Legend"? "Fable" maybe? It was supposed to be Sword and Sorcery, sort of Conan-like. Where magic can corrupt the caster.
>>47666139
Exactly.
Like, you could spend hours coming up with the number of puzzles and traps that totally cease to matter as soon as any spellcaster in the pilot hits level 5 and can cast Fly.
You want to base an adventure around a character being cursed somehow, or including a land plagued by disease? Better do it before the spells that remove those conditions unlock, because unless you can make that curse/disease relevant in the next 8 hours its "-1 spell tomorrow, -1 adventure today".
Magic just has a lot of silver bullets to problems that are 100% effective. And there isnt any normally included wigle room that dampens spellcasting without the GM bullshiting something themselves (the throne room weakens the magic of those not in the employ of the king!) which players are going to feel cheated if you use specifically because they have come to take it for granted that magic Just Works (tm). Once you get to a certain level, a whole bunch of potential plots just sort of dry up as a result.
>>47666069
I like how Vistiani curses from Curse of Strahd work, and I think that's kind of how my ideal magic system would be based on.
>Potent and varied, but never direct-damage
>Has psychic backlash when dispelled, the bigger the effect the worse the backlash
>Only one effect up at a time
Based on curses and blessings or invocations rather than on spell scrolls.
I mean, generally, isn't magic supposed to be either beyond the reach of mortals or anyone can use it? Weren't deals with demons or spirits considered the go-to for magic in myth?
A peasant wouldn't curse his enemy or ask for a magic favor because the repercussions could be huge. Say some demon showed up to give him a harvest to surpass all harvests so he could impress that girl in exchange for some innocuous favor. But then it turns out that the harvest itself is a curse after he gets robbed blind and beaten by his jealous neighbors for the secret and can't marry the girl because now he's gone from normal but less than glorious to flat broke.
Only a player character or villain would be crazy enough to broker deals with the masters of arcane power, and clerics would probably be tasked with making sure that humanity didn't blow itself up making deals with devils and that they actually learn to be people that can take care of themselves.
>>47666272
>cheated if you use specifically because they have come to take it for granted that magic Just Works (tm). Once you get to a certain level, a whole bunch of potential plots just sort of dry up as a result.
Not just that but the game starts it hit points where removing magic completely fucks over the party as well.
But the DM having to play "Beat Batman. Starts to get really old and annoying and a lot of them start to run out of ideas that batman can't instantly win but are still fun very quickly.
http://www.ruleofcool.com/
Check out Legend fighters can do alot of cool shit
free download on the site
>>47664924
>Megumin
>winning
That doesn't sound right.
>>47664301
5 editions in and I still don't have a problem with this. And I play martials. I know I'm going to be outstripped by the wizard eventually but without me meat shielding him he'll never make it that far.
>>47666256
>>47666321
You know, this just might be it. Does it have called shots in it?
>>47666381
Unless it's 3.5 and somebody plays a druid instead.
>>47666005
You're basically describing 3.pf issues.
>>47666311
>Set up a fortress for the players that they need to assault
>Wizard casts invisibility, fly, ant haul, carries everying over the walls and past the defenses
>It only got worse as players gained levels
That was when I realized why people hated the system so much
>>47666381
But druids and clerics can legitimately beat face in melee better than actual martials in 3.5.
>>47666441
Yes? Because that's the only edition of D&D that really has these problems. The rest have martials that are strong, but not demigods, and casters that actually have downsides and can't solve everything themselves.
>>47664413
Because when they tried that, it was called 'not d&d' and spammed into oblivion for 5 years
>>47666457
>can't set the forest on fire because the tree-loving faggot won't let us
>can't use undead minions because the holier-than-thou retard is buttblasted about them
You know, I'll take a bro with a pointy stick afterall.
I like 5e. I think Fighter is the most fighty guy to have ever fought. He's the most fighty he's ever been, and doesn't afraid of anything.
He can move and make all of his attacks now! And if he wants, he can make all of them again! Fighter can do all his super special tricks on all opponents now, and declare them AFTER he knows he already hit!
Fighter man is all like "Bonk, I trip you now, and take more damage just cause! Oh look, now all my attacks has advantage. Ima take an accuracy penalty to hurt you even more bad, but because of bounded accuracy I don't give a damn cause I have more power than ever before!"
> Bonk Bonk Bonk
Woops, I missed one. It's ok. I just flex harder and choose to add a little more accuracy, and BONK! My sword rebounds to your face! Also guess what. I can flex time into submission. Let's do all the bonking AGAIN!
> Bonk bonk bonk
Oh no, you hurt me! I'm going to take a deep breath and POOF! All better!
Even magic fighty guy is super in this edition. He can flex time into submission and cast another non-cantrip spell in the same turn, almost all other finger wigglers are constrained to 1 non-cantrip per turn!
Fighter man is the best man!
>>47666405
What part of free PDF didn't you understand
>>47666457
Then play something other than 3.5. Years later and people still act like it's THE D&D, even though other editions either didn't have the problems that system had or solved them.
>>47666405
Mongoose Legend is a completely different game from Rule of Cool Legend. The former is a RuneQuest-compatible line of books, the latter is an original d20 game that has shit like Jackie Chan monks and Kamen Rider vigilantes.
>>47666560
Are you suggesting I devote precious storage space to a PDF if I don't know it has called shots in it?? I might have to take 2 seconds out of my day to delete it!!
Too bad 5e is an unsupported trainwreck.
I'm so fucking sick of 3.5/Pathfinder I can't even describe it.
>>47664718
Also a different person than the one you replied to, but it's not a universally bad argument. And the argument itself isn't that flaws in the rules go away once you start playing.
It's that people who bring up perceived flaws in systems they've never played or even read often ignore the larger context, and don't account for other factors that determine how the system works in practice.
I'm convinced a lot of the arguments on /tg/ happen between people who are both parroting things they've read on this board about games they've never played.
>>47666612
>Too bad 5e is an unsupported trainwreck.
What?
>>47666578
>Mongoose Legend
Does this one have called shots and corrupting magic? I'm just asking, because a friend described SOMETHING to me a long time ago, and I'm trying to figure out what game it was.
>>47666630
People look at the fact that 5e only has a couple of books despite being out for a year and find that is pitiful in comparison to the dozens 3.5 had after being out for 10.
No, it isn't really a fair comparison.
>>47664807
This is it. 5e fixed the ridiculous imbalance in 3.5, and 4e is the most balanced edition of DnD there is.
>>47666612
>unsupported
What are you talking about?
>>47666630
No books, no options, no monster manuals, nothing but a handful of adventures and less than 10 people in the office.
>>47666612
How is 5e unsupported? Because they didn't immediately start publishing splatbook after splatbook?
Instead, all they've done is write multiple huge adventure paths per year with free PDF supplements to them, free PDFs of the Basic Rules, an online SRD, a storefront website for PDFs of homebrew content, the monthly Unearthed Arcana articles...
>>47666637
Yes, RuneQuest has called shots and a hit location table on top of that.
Lol at people thinking the fighter can do anything in DND5e other than 'consistent damage'.
That's it. That's all it has.
What way does it have to excitingly influence the story, in the manner of a spell as simple as Suggestion or Friends or even Darkness or Pass Without Trace?
None. Just hit things really well, that's it.
>>47666685
>No books, no options
There's the player's handbook, the Elemental Evil handbook, and the Sword Coast guide, along with the DMG and all the Unearthed Arcana stuff for additional options. They haven't made any new classes, but there are a bunch of new subclasses and races.
I doubt you've even used a fraction of them regardless.
>No monster manuals
There's one. Have you used every monster in it yet?
>>47666685
>no monster manuals
Then what's this from, asshat?
>>47666716
hahhahaha at these options.
Other than the Swashbuckler Rogue, pretty much all those options are worse than anything in the PHB for anyone that isn't a full caster.
They're failing pretty hard at game design. The Purple Dragon Knight was a joke.
>>47666685 here
also adding shit support for levels 10+
half the game isn't even there
>>47666727
good one, bro, you know damn well what I mean
>>47666765
Are you joking? The Sun Soul monk is probably one of the best monk subclasses.
Besides, I thought you were arguing in favor of 3.5, which had even more trap options and classes that were worse than those in core.
>>47666768
>you know damn well what I mean
That you're a child who can't play a game unless there's a new splatbook out each month for you to min-max your character with?
>>47666765
>>47666768
samefriend
>>47666768
>good one, bro, you know damn well what I mean
I'm not sure I do. One full monster manual with all the famous D&D monsters and some of the less famous ones, and NPC statblocks for a wide variety of NPCs and animals is not "no monster manuals".
If I had to guess though, what you meant is "I'm exaggerating and misleading to make a point I can't make as well with real, factual statements."
>>47666802
i'm not anyone else in this thread.
The Sun Soul monk has VERY cool flavour which is a part of why it's so disappointing. It adds range and a little bit of AoE to the monk class, but no utility, no significant damage, and the capstone ability is a joke for the point you get it.
>>47666685
Is this what you want? Will a collwction like this make you happy? You want to spend hours combing through splat after splat?
Keep it simple stupid! You remeber what fun was? Fun is enjoying something. Usually enjoying it for what it is.
Meticulous number crunching and combing through splat for every loophole and +1 is exactly why you are burnt out. There is nothing fun about too much splat.
>>47666830
>min-max your character with
>wanting more monsters
what
>>47666885
Oh, I'm sorry. You're a child who can't have fun unless he has a new shiny picture shown to him every 5 minutes.
>>47666540
>Not playing an evil cleric that can make undead minions of his own
Step it up, LG kiddies simply can't compete
>Having very little content is a feature! A FEATURE!
What is going on in this thread?
It can't be that there's little because it's super well made, because holy fuck there's no way.
There's just little because they can't produce much.
Just have to wait a few years, then pick it all up.
>>47666900
That's more like it.
>>47666872
Ah, so you like the subclasses, but can't enjoy them because they're not strictly better than the core ones. Open Hand monks also don't boast much utility.
The current content we've gotten has been fine, and the rate we've been getting it is also purposefully slow so they don't overwhelm us with bloat.
Sounds to me like you're just way too demanding.
>>47664301
>How long will it take WotC to realize that magic cannot be balanced against not-magic?
IT CAN BE
THEY DID IT
OTHER GAMES DO IT
STOP FUCKING SAYING THIS
>>47666830
>>47666900
>that stinking desperation to call anyone who doesn't agree with him a child
>>47666967
>THEY DID IT
4e is pretty much "everyone is magic, even martials"
I did a game awhile back where the world entered a period of low magic. (Operated on a cycle like in Arcanum.) Even the strongest wizmen couldn't manage much more than a basic fireball, and depowered magic users were mercilessly bullied by ascendant meleefags, who were fully aware of how they used to be objectively worse in everything.
>>47667023
Wow.
>>47664301
>How long will it take WotC to realize that magic cannot be balanced against not-magic?
It can, but it also requires major system overhauls. 4E showed us that people don't want that.
>>47667024
>implying I'm the same guy
>implying you're not crying and shitting yourself someone doesn't like your pet game
>implying your rage and tears don't sustain me
>>47667024
You are proving him right. You have used the same 'insult' 5 times now. Not even him but you sound way more pathetic than him.
>>47664713
>we'd be taking dudes who can duel armies and split mountains with a single sword swing for granted
So... Exalted?
>>47667024
For fuck's sake, anon
>>47667024
>Someone criticized 5E? REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Oh fuck off.
>>47664301
This is a problem in only one edition of DnD.
>>47667008
Only if you call anything cool that a character can do "magic". It's circular reasoning to declare that fighters have been made into casters the minute they get anything nice.
And it's also bullshit. You know what a game is like when the fighters are magic? It's Exalted or Earthdawn or something. 4e rogues and fighters aren't setting their weapons on fire with their mind, they're knocking people around the battlefield and doing conventional action hero stunts.
>>47664434
>all those jumpcuts
Man i wish more directors watched that jackie chan documentary on how to do action scenes. Its impossible to actually follow whats going on here.
>>47664301
The answer that I came up with to this problem is actually the most simple one.
Science and Technology.
Doesn't matter how good a magic user is, because if they're not prepared to deal with something like say Napalm or a Marksmen, then what? That bitch is gonna die.
>Five years since 4e died
>People still bitching about caster editions
How long will it take people to realize that 4e solved all these problems which they complain about? 4e was a gamechanger. When you complain about this stuff, you're effectively denying that a solution exists and has existed: no matter how much you cry about "muh verisimilitude" and how much "it's not my D&D", the undeniable fact is that it played better the dungeon crawling fantasy game better than any edition before or since. Hell, it even got monks right.
Personally I believe that for the inevitable 6th edition, all you whiny babies are going to fall for it again and they'll just reprint 3e, with the serial numbers filed off and the "problem" of "overpowered" casters "fixed" by nerfing more things they don't care about while expanding their options and abilities.
Thoughts?
>>47667121
It's especially bad in one edition, but it's been a problem since forever (setting aside the period when it was fixed). I've played fighters in various versions of AD&D, and while they were far from useless they were always really boring to play in comparison with the magical classes.
>>47664301
Akiro the Wizard accomplishes a fuckton less than Conan.
Calchas the seer barely gets screen time in the Iliad, particularly compared to his Martial overlords.
Merlin might be strictly speaking more powerful than Arturia, but I'd rather have the King of the Britons at my back in a fight.
What it comes down to is the power level of the casters and martials in the system and setting.
D&D casters are head and shoulders above 99% of casters. A ninth level cleric is arguably more powerful than Jesus Christ. Merlin and Gandalf rarely actually cast spells.
On the other hand, martials are probably a little bit inferior to their fictional counterparts (Hercules, Diomedes, Odysseus, Hector, Achilles, Ajax, Arturia), and a substantial portion of their ability comes from equipment rather than being inherent. They lose too much when their fancy magic sword is taken away.
TLDR:
D&D Wizards >>>> Fantasy/Mythological wizards
D&D Martials << Fantasy/Mythological wizards
And this is why we have problems.
>>47667054
What do people want then? The same system, so they want fighters to only attack. Yet they want to be have all the facilities of a wizard?
>>47665202
>Realistic and Gritty
>Exalted
>>47667176
They have what they want. Yes there is a large disparity between martials and casters in DnD/PF. Both those systems still sell better than any other system on the market.
They sell off of popularity. Just like CoD or any other big name franchise with mediocre quality.
>>47666443
Exactly.
Fuck the players feels for a minute. D&D magic is just a pain in the dick for GMs.
>>47664413
WHAT LIKE FOURTH EDITION???????
BOY WHAT A GREAT FYCKING IDEA
>>47667176
If someone gave fighters a big heaping bunch of skill points, exceptional saves like they had in 1e, and a small quantity of healing/recovery, I'd be pretty happy.
>>47666960
No, they aren't even on par with the core classes. Open Hand can at least chuck a guy across a room, into a hazard, etc. Sun Soul does damage, and that's all it does.
OK, and it can turn on a light.
In D&D 3.5 magic is
>fast
>plentiful
>cheap
>easy to use
>safe
>extremely efficient
>has unlimitedly wide ranges of effects
most systems take away a couple of these (many switch safe to dangerous, for example) and then the problem gets solved
>>47667220
Yeah, it's funny to see this board wrap around to liking 4e once they realised it did 80% of everything right, and what it didn't get right was either fixed in supplements or easily houseruled (monster math, math fix feats, inherent bonuses).
>>47665202
>mundane characters
>Exalted
I dont get it. Does it mean characters focused on normal fighting stuff? Because a character with melee/resistance charms is actually well balanced against a sorcerer. Then again that's probably because exalted puts focus on more than combat.
>>47667054
Bollocks. The system was far more radically overhauled going from 2e -> 3e
>>47667144
>Thoughts?
You're pretty much right senpai.
With the addition that a lot of 4e hate is memes perpetuated by people who haven't actually read the books / Thing they need rules to tell them how to roleplay.
>>47667257
I had legitimate reasons to hate 4E at first but they addressed every single one of them as more material came out. It was ridiculous how dependent characters were on leader attack bonuses in the core content when only one of them could reliably grant decent amounts of them and usually had to hit to apply them.
>>47667265
People didn't like 3e when it was new either. The difference was just a how much the playerbase expanded (due to the RPG fad in the late 90s and early 2000s) with 3e in a way that didn't happen with 4e (because there was no similar fad, but also other reasons).
>>47665187
NO
YOU'LL READ THE TROLL THREADS AND YOU'LL LIKE IT
>>47667174
I feel like the schools are terribly represented, and that causes the issue of casters having too much magic.
I'm not sure conjuration/evocation and others do the trick correctly.
>>47667132
>Only if you call anything cool that a character can do "magic".
The way I see this it's less about "cool" and more about "would this be possible in real live assuming heroic / peak human performance"?
If the answer is no, it's magic.
And leaving aside discussing which exact Daily is humanly possible and which is not, just the fact that everyone has Healing Surges makes everyone magic. Because Healing Surges are made of some high purity bullshitium.
>>47667562
that means every single creature that doesn't exist of Earth is 'magic' right?
>>47667562
>"would this be possible in real live assuming heroic / peak human performance"?
Why is that your metric at all
>>47665202
is that third branch supposed to be bait?
>>47667562
Why would you assume that though?
>>47667144
>Thoughts?
You didn't say it nicely but you hit the nail on the head.
>>47664301
Only when magic can do fucking anything.
Nothing is stopping magic from having limits
>>47664431
And I see you've never played 4e
>>47667574
Nope, some of those could be alternate branches of evolution, or could be genetically engineered. It's more about if they could reasonably exist as a species, not if they actually do.
I think the breaking point is pegasus, I'm willing to accept that by some weird twist of evolution there might have been mammal with six limbs and as such might still not be magic.
>>47664301
Not this fucking thread again...
Martials will NEVER EVER be as powerful or as versatile as casters due to the fact that magic is infinitely more varied and versatile than hitting things.
If you can't handle that fact then play another game. Simple as that.
>>47667562
>"would this be possible in real live assuming heroic / peak human performance"?
There's no way to judge 4e's martial exploits by this standard, because the mechanics of D&D combat are so far removed from reality that the question is meaningless.
Like, is it possible for someone with a "peak human" physique to move 6 spaces without provoking an attack of opportunity and make an attack at any point along it? I don't fucking know, people don't actually move on square grids.
>Because Healing Surges are made of some high purity bullshitium.
They're endurance points you dumbass. Healing surges are what limit how much you can be healed.
>>47668048
Not this fucking post again...
They can be, they have been, and infinite potential variety does not mean infinite power at the tips of your fingers right here and now.
>>47668057
I'm actually baffled at the amount of people who don't know how healing surges work. They're not free magical healing, they're endurance points, like this anon said.
>>47668092
It does in D&D.
Stay mad martialcuck.
>>47667562
So in a world of huge ass Dragons various Elementals and all the other blatantly physics breaking shit you want Fighter and other Martials to follow Real World Physics while the Caster gets to ignore it
That is retarded im sorry but it is it's a double standard and if you can't see that there is no point arguing with you
This is a fictional setting for a game of pretend about fantastical realms and beings of fantastical ability
Magic isn't real it only works the way you/the author/the game designer says it does it doesn't have to be any stronger than Martial physical ability
Because in a world of multi-ton dragons you can say that a warrior can train to gain superhuman strength and skill
>>47668142
Dragons and elementals are inherently magical creatures. Dragons in particular are powerful spellcasters themselves.
Humans are not. How fucking hard is it for you martialcucks to grasp this concept?
Fighters are not special. They're a dime a dozen in most campaign settings. They are not magical. You're not fucking Hercules or Beowulf. You're just a man with a sharp of metal. You cannot break the laws of physics.
Now shut the fuck up or play another game you whining pussy.
>>47668280
>Dragons and elementals are inherently magical creatures.
Heroes are inherently magical creatures.
>>47668142
Its not just the caster, the monsters ignore the laws too. The only things in the fantasy world that are limited by the laws of real life, are fighters kek. And fighters defend this with teeth and nail, they _need_ to be limited by the laws of real life.
>>47668280
>maritalcucks
Oh good, you were just trolling
>>47668303
No they aren't. Holy fuck stop making shit up.
Show me where in any D&D core rulebook it states that fighters are "magical".
Fighters are ordinary mortals who are proficient in martial arts. That's it.
>>47668280
>Fighters are not special.
>The main characters are supposed to be "special individuals"
>You're not fucking Hercules or Beowulf.
>People play these games to experience being a fantasy hero
You're defending the system by pointing out the very flaws in it.
>>47668280
>I want to be a mook
You do realize even martialfags get to level 21 and become demigods right?
You were never supposed to be a regular peasant with no destiny. You were always meant to be a hero, and heroes are magical beings powered by the power of friendship and strong will.
>martials got shafted
Oh for fuck's sake, casters are at the weakest they've ever been. You whining, crying fighterfaggots are at this point bitching that casters can teleport and raise the dead and nothing else.
God forbid spoiled, entitled little faggots like you ever play OD&D, BECMI, 1e, or 2e.
>>47668280
>You're just a man with a sharp of metal.
At level one, when the wizard is a guy with spells that amount to a crossbow that doesn't need reloading or some dazzling lights
And don't start on the laws of physics. D&D has never run on physics. Try to shoehorn it in and you get peasant railguns.
>>47668280
beowulf wasn't magical either
>You cannot break the laws of physics.
we're talking about characters that can survive being submersed in lava
>>47668369
2e is way better, though
>>47668353
>The main characters are supposed to be "special individuals"
They are special individuals. Arnold Schwarznegger is a special individual. A cut above the rest. He still abides by the laws of physics though.
>People play these games to experience being a fantasy hero
Yes, a fantasy hero not a demigod.
>>47668317
>And fighters defend this with teeth and nail, they _need_ to be limited by the laws of real life
That's pretty much the whole point of them though - the idea of a mortal man overcoming the opposition on nothing but his own strength and character, without the help of gods, magical forces or fate.
I don't really mind martials being under-powered, as long as GM keeps casters ability somewhat limited and allows for fighters to play their own role, so that they can have their own awesome moments while wizard is busy stomping the balrog (as opposed to wizards going full Batman and solving every issue ever by abusing the system).
>>47664332
Hell, it's clunky, really suffers from padded sumo, and equipment powerlevels are inconsistent as fuck... but it wears its imbalance on its sleeve and doesn't try to pretend that a Vagabond is balanced against a Crazy, or a Crazy against a Dragon Hatchling.
For a given weight-class, a high level tech type is pretty well matched versus a high level mage - though both rarely leverage all their dirty tricks - and there's much more allowance for forms of power such as "running a merc company" or "having a squad of stealthed killbots".
>>47668369
Been there, done that, nobody should ever have to go back.
>>47668409
>He still abides by the laws of physics though
fucking lol
>>47667260
Exalted is a setting where, like 3.x, muggles are utterly shit all over. They are generally little more than scenery. The only kind of HitThings character worth playing is, like in 3.x, a divinely powered badass.
Its like the legend of Hercules. Does anyone think a fighterfaggot can compare with a demigod?
>>47668280
>Humans are not inherently magical
Then why can Casters cast if Humans aren't magical
>>47668369
This.
Martials and casters are perfectly balanced in 5e yet martialfags are still complaining.
Why?
What do you want?
For casters to be removed from the game?
>>47664830
>I'll give credit where it's due: if all martials went the route of ToB the imbalance would be a lot lighter.
That was actually what they were going to do. The original project was called "Orcus" and it drew a lot from ToB - because those kinds of books were basically test runs.
Then, for mysterious reasons, they scrapped it. IIRC, it was Mearl's fault.
>>47668402
>2e is way better, though
As someone who's DMed and played for 20+ years, and mostly 2e, would you care to explain why you think its better than 5e? I don't really see it. All I like about 2e is the great variety of splats and options, but the actual basic game doesn't interest me.
>>47668431
>Exalted is a setting where, like 3.x, muggles are utterly shit all over
Which is one of the reasons I don't like Exalted. That, and weeb shit.
> like in 3.x, a divinely powered badass
Don't allow your wizard to overbuff/build super airfortresses/armies of golems/magical firearms/craft heaps of Sleep scrolls, and fighters will get a role. They will not be as ungodly OP as well-built casters, but if your game has devolved into a dick-measuring contests than it's beyond saving anyay.
>>47668412
>the ideal of a mortal man...with no help of magic
You do realize the fighter is based on old heroes, which most of them had god's help, magical artifacts to aid them. One of the few that didn't have any of that was Beowulf, and he cleaned his ass with realism. Beowulf is more bullshit than any greek hero.
You were never meant to be a peasant other than in your own imagination.
>person doing push-ups until he can leap over skyscrapers or cut down a small army with one strike of a sword breaks the laws of physics
>but a person able to create a ball of plasma by wiggling his fingertips and thinking real hard doesn't
>in a world where dragons exist and can fly, human musculature couldn't have a higher upper strength limit
it's funny how wizardfags can just wish for infinite fighters and create demiplanes of nukes populated by neutronium golems at will, but any notion of making fighters ever so slightly stronger than average man with pointy stick makes them froth in the mouth like you're taking away their last scraps of dignity
>>47667190
Mortals have all sorts of rules that apply to them that Exalts and spirits just scoff at.
For example, if you recieve lethal wound levels, you have to roll for sepsis after the fight
>>47668472
Hahaha you think 5e doesn't still have caster supremacy.
>>47668531
What if we had a class about having god's help and hitting things separate from the fighter? That way, instead of having "fights with miracles" and "fights with good at sword" as the same class they'd be different?
>Beowulf is more bullshit than any greek hero.
He's nothing compared to Hercules, who is someone from a fucking Warner Brothers cartoon.
>>47668570
No it doesn't.
Have you even played 5e?
>>47668545
The hilarious part to me is that its martials themselves that refuse to get new powers, yet they are the ones that complain.
>>47668573
Beowulf would find a way to beat Hercules and succeed. That's how his myth works.
Other systems do it right though. In one that I play, a spellcaster needs to make a skill check using their spellcrafting skill, pic related. If it's an attack spell like Polar Ray or something, it has to beat the opponents AC, and for spells like Gust of Wind it becomes the DC for a bullrush. If the target has spell defense from any character options, the check has to beat it.
Furthermore, saves for the spells are 10 + charisma modifier + spellcasting feats, which scales pretty well with level.
A spellcaster gets 2 spell points per level, and casting a spell costs the spell's level. A level 3 spell costs 3 SP, for instance. If you fail the spellcasting check, tough luck. Feats let you apply metamagic at the cost of more spellpoints. The points refresh every scene, which is whenever the story naturally shifts.
The level of spells you can cast goes up by one every two levels. Certain options can lower the level of spells, like taking longer or having shorter reach.
Divine magic is different, but I won't go into that. It's straightforward though.
To top it off, martials get stances and tricks and feats that let them do all sorts of things. Overall, it's much more fair. A straight combat class will probably win in a fight, but magicians have incredible utility and versatility.
>>47668545
This is exactly the problem
Casterfags can't seem to wrap their heads around the idea that this is all make believe and can have whatever laws we want it to have to govern the world
They can't accept that their idea of how the world should work isn't the only idea
That casters don't have to be the nigh omnipotent god beings they end up being
And that Martials can be more than average human strength peasant who swings a sharp stick
>>47668607
The problem is that martialfags want to on par with casters but they don't want any "weeb" powers.
That kind of limits the options.
>>47668570
When fighterfaggots whine, bitch, and cry about caster supremacy in 5e, what they mean is "bawww, why can't martials teleport and resurrect people." And fighters are way more even than in BECMI, AD&D, etc.
>>47668531
>You do realize the fighter is based on old heroes
Not necessarily. Do tell me what magical powers did slavic Bogatyrs or Uilenspiegel have.
>magical artifacts to aid them
Fighters can have them. If your gm refuses to give you anything above a +3 sword than it's his fault.
>You were never meant to be a peasant other than in your own imagination.
O rly? You gonna tell me how I am supposed to enjoy my rpg?
>>47664301
I wonder how well 4e would have done if it hadn't called itself DnD.also aren't most of the martials in 5e able to become gishes
>>47668628
Probably not, since he died.
Meanwhile, Hercules wielded cheesy cartoony powers beyond the mightiest of D&D wizards.
>>47668280
man if you want a game where you get to play krilin then go right ahead. The rest of us want a game with actual balance.
>>47668280
>You're not fucking Hercules or Beowulf
Except those two were listed as inspiration for fighters in 2e
>>47668653
>>47668660
>>47668670
Hey guys. Guys. Hey. Guys hey. Hey.
I've got a thing to tell you here.
Can you imagine that people can play both martials and casters in different games? And more than that - they can have different experiences with those depending on how it turned out?
I know, it's unbelievable, but still.
>>47668653
>>47668545
>or cut down a small army with one strike of a sword breaks the laws of physics
But they can do that in 3.x
>it's funny how wizardfags can just wish for infinite fighters and create demiplanes of nukes populated by neutronium golems at will
nobody even 1% argued for that
Fighterfags want bizarre supernatural powers that are several orders of magnitude above what a caster can do. That's the problem.
None of these complaints have anything to do with 5e.
>>47667174
Did you just say Arturia?
>>47668684
Also Hercules wasn't mortal, he was Half-god, or some such. His powers were (mainly) from some cheesy racial template, not from class levels.
>>47668684
He died due to age (and I think he got wounded by the dragon but not sure). He beat every challenge he found, a weird giant, a witch, a dragon. All of them were shit to him.
A hero with brains and superhuman strength > demigods
>>47668670
Now we're getting to the crux of the issue.
Even if you made fighters into mythological demigods in terms of strength, they still can't summon planar beings, raise the dead, read and control minds, teleport, control time and the weather, etc etc etc
Martials are just jealous that their characters are so boring in terms of mechanics. The only thing they're good at his hitting things.
>>47668599
Sure, for the past two years, since the open playtest.
Fighters are boring to play. Their class features boil down to some extra healing, and "I attack". If you're a bsttlemaster, sometimes you say "I trip attack" or "I precision attack" instead.
You get a lot of it, even more with Action Surge... But that's all you're good for. Doing decent damage.
Compare the 5e paladin, actually a pretty good class. They do comparable damage to a fighter... And they actually do interesting things both in and out of combat.
The fighter class should have been killed. Fighter players can have much more fun playing a paladin and just calling it 'fighter'.
>>47667174
>Merlin might be strictly speaking more powerful than Arturia
>Arturia
GET OUT
>>47664332
Palladium
You literally took a step backwards in balance, gameplay, lore, and art. Holy shit.
>>47668700
So why do you keep playing the game if it's so unfair?
If it's not fun for you then play something else.
>>47668671
>Do tell me what magical powers did slavic Bogatyrs
Immense and utterly inhuman strength and toughness for guys like Ilya Muromets.
Giant size for Svyatogor
Being a cunning shit for Alyosha Popovitch
>>47668709
Fighterfaggots are the homosexuals like >>47668545 who think that, because they saw a poorly understood bit of Pun Pun 2 editions ago, that fighters 2 editions later need to have phenomenal magic powers.
It does not mean "people who play fighters." It means "people who want fighters in 5th edition to be stronger than casters in 3rd edition." Like OP.
>>47668703
beowulf was also listed as inspiration for the 5e fighter by mearls, which is a little disappointing
not that i think the 5e fighter is bad, it's just a bit boring. i prefer the barbarian in some respects, especially in the unlikely event you manage to hit that godly capstone.
>>47668675
It would have barely sold at all. At best it would be championed on this board by a dedicate core of pirates.
>>47668739
And yet, it's possible that you can make a game where characters who can do none of that shit are fun and effective to play alongside the guys who do all that wacky shit.
Warriors who are mechanically interesting exist! I've played those characters!
>>47668653
Being Casterfags OR Martialfags is stupid as hell honestly.
It slants your ability to make rational and neutral judgements in either direction too far to make opinions you hold useful anymore to anyone who doesn't already agree with you, meaning you aren't actually going to make any progress changing people's minds or finding ACTUAL middle ground.
Always take an even view of things.
>>47668737
He died of dragon poison after killing the dragon. His accomplishments were absolutely nothing compared to Hercules. The Olympians would have lost against the Giants, who had invaded Elysium by making an impromptu Tower of Babel to reach it, if it was not for Hercules.
That's the difference between a divine being and a mere fighter.
>>47668742
That's a problem with the system. Maneuvers are useless, feats are useless. "Fighter" type classes can be done well, D&D just doesn't do it.
>>47668761
>So why do you keep playing the game if it's so unfair?
Because RPG is not about the competition within the party over who gets to waive his dick around the most?
>>47668742
That's why games should either focus on complicated tactical combat that poses a decent challenge for the party, so that even simple attacks become important (decent crawl), or have players do more than just murderhobo around (decent adventure campaign).
>>47668742
This really triggers me.
>roll a fighter
>complain that all you do is fight
What the fuck did you expect you dumb nigger? Fighters do exactly what it says on the box.
What exactly did you expect to be doing when you rolled a fighter?
>The fighter class should have been killed. Fighter players can have much more fun playing a paladin and just calling it 'fighter'.
I actually agree with this.
I made a post in the other thread explaining that Fighters should just be removed from the game since Paladins, Barbarians and Rangers make them obsolete.
>>47668742
5e fighters are perfectly fine, particularly battlemasters, bannerets and EKs. They get nearly twice the feats/stat upgrades anyone else does, extra actions, save rerolls, etc.
>>47668675
It would be called STRIKE! and it would be pretty good
>>47668761
>this game is broken
>YEAH WELL WHY DONT YOU GO PLAY SOMETHING ELSE THEN
Or to answer your actual point because DnD is what most people want to play, and so finding people to play something else is next to impossible. Its why people hate on DnD so much. There are plenty of other systems with bad imbalanced rules, but those can be avoided. DnD sort of cant.
>>47668831
>bannerets
>good
they're weaker than champions, honestly
aside from being cool fluffwise
>>47668834
Like I said, >>47668792
>>47667174
>Arturia
