Last thread: >>47531907
>Pastebin
http://pastebin.com/PPptBB5u
>Latest News
http://theonyxpath.com/something-something-pun-about-may-monday-meeting-notes/
The Pack is here!
>richfags
http://drivethrurpg.com/product/181760?affiliate_id=13&src=TheOnyxPath
>poorfags
http://www.mediafire.com/download/n7htcqyqk0y0acy/%5BWtF%5DThe_Pack.PDF
>Question
Have you ever used other pieces of fiction for your game? (not necessarily other game-lines, but non WOD movies,books,games, etc...)
Has anyone leeked the pack yet?
>>47548848
Buy it. It's 10$, Ave Onyx Path needs your money.
>>47548862
Already did, I'm just surprised no one else has leeked it yet.
>>47548976
It was leaked a little while ago, but the link is lost to the annals of the archive.
>>47548976
It's in OP's post.
>>47549003
>>47549019
Well now I feel dumb.
>>47549063
Huh. I didn't look, because >>47548848 asked about it.
Alright gang, oWoD question. I've set my players up as Shovelheads who managed to slip the leash and are now free in Los Angeles (not the official Los Angeles. Think Los Angeles itself as a Camarilla Front surrounded by a thin layer of anarchs with Sabbat waiting out in the desert for someone to get weak.) I've planted a couple of story seeds for them to pursue and they're starting to piece together that they are, in fact, vampires. One barely dodged a sunrise.
Question. Where do I go from here?
>>47549177
Shovelheads are those disposable vampires right? Have their sire try to rain them in.
>>47549177
Have gay sex with them?
It's fanfic, you don't really have any players, you might as well get your rocks off.
>>47549238
Sires. Plural. And shovelhead is a dirty word. The sabbat prefers the term "recruit".
That's one option. The Camarilla's scourge is already after them. They're going to need to join a faction at some point.
>>47549344
Just wanted to be sure I knew what I'm taking about.
You could have them run into some anarchs that to show the group just how disturbed they can become.
>>47549265
Some people do actually run games, you know.
>>47549722
Ignore him.
Have you ever gotten to second base with a monster?
>>47549907
My mage bangs a beast, so... Yeah.
>>47549907Yes. Nobody fucks like an Uratha and a Thyrsus do.
>tfw Paradox will shut down OPP's license and we will only have glorious oWoD with Runequest mechanics forevermore
>>47549177
>Question. Where do I go from here?
To Vampire: the Requiem
>>47549722
I do, I've joined them from here.
he's not. just like Aspel, it's fanfic for them
>>47549735
most wal-marts aren't open 24 hours, and a vampire would want something only open at night
>>47549936
nah, once paradox sees what a flop owod is they'll shut down opp's license and start doing cofd stuff themselves
>>47549177
Mass embraces are done with a clear objective in mind, if they achieved that objective they should be considered "true Sabbat" and their sires would introduce them to the vampire world, the Sabbat and probably some path of illumination.
>>47550326
Thank you, but no.
>>47550394
The complication is that they went and did that objective, glutted themselves on blood and were passed out. A couple of ghouls scooped them into a van and that van was waylaid... by a vintage Charger wtih a carburetor sticking through the hood.
The four men got out, shot the drivers and said "Let's have a look at what they have in the back and OH F-"
So, they're free and loose on the streets of LA.
>>47550394
Where is that? I always heard that they'd be false Sabbat. Like... meeting your objective isn't necessarily grounds for the creation rites. The description is pretty vague on that point.
>>47550488
Then it depends on the players doesn't it? Either the Camarilla recruits them and use them against the Sabbat or the Anarchs find them or they manage to reach the Sabbat in the outskirts
I would strip search the ghouls and see
>>47550530
Here in page 19 of the anniversary edition
"The Sabbat — who sometimes call their hastily-Embraced
fledglings “shovelheads” due to their bizarre
Embrace rituals — are usually much more pragmatic: If
the fledgling survives and does something worthwhile,
she’s not a shovelhead anymore."
>>47550377
See I feel like Paradox is going to hold on to White Wolf as long and as hard as possible, even if this One World of Darkness thing goes bust. That or milk the everloving fuck out of Exalted.
Fate's new purview in 2e is:
>Blessings, hexes, probability, fortune, oaths, promises, intentions, destiny.
"Blessings" and "hexes" is fairly broad. Could basically any spell that could be construed as a "blessing" or a "hex" be accomplished under Fate?
Right from Fate 2, you can inflict hexes like:
>Arm Wrack, Blinded, Deafened, Insane, Knocked Down, Leg Wrack, Poisoned, or Sick
And beneficial Conditions such as:
>Charmed, Informed, Inspired, or Steadfast
Which means that Fate 2 alone can directly manipulate bodies and minds as long as it can be construed as a "blessing" or a "hex"...
>>47550978
Yes, congratulations, newfag, you're learning that all the Arcana are pretty powerful if you know what you're doing
In other news, water is wet
>>47550978
Almost correct, you need at 3 dots for supernatural conditions, 4 if you want them to be persistent.
Also the subject can resolve the condition as normal. So not entirely game breaking.
>>47551115
>>47551182
Does this mean that you could straight-up boost your Attributes just like Life or Mind, because that counts as a "blessing" and Fate can directly manipulate bodies and minds?
>>47551203
No.
Being stronger isn't a blessing, it's being stronger. You could boost any given Attribute's rolls, but not the Attribute itself.
But you're too autistic to really "get" this, Touhoufag, so I'm gonna sit back and watch the thread spiral for 8 hours trying to explain it to you.
>>47551203
No you can't increase the attributes.
But you can give a bonus to rolls involving those attributes, even give 9/8 again or rote action.
But its not the same as increasing the attributes them selves. It won't increase your derived traits such as health, speed, or withstand raiting.
>>47551279
>Being stronger isn't a blessing, it's being stronger.
But literally making someone blind, deaf, insane, poisoned, or sick is a hex.
>Increasing a Skill or Merit is typically a Ruling (••) spell. Attributes can be increased by a Perfecting (•••) spell.
Creative thaumaturgy gives you free rein to boost Attributes as long as it falls under the right purview and practice, and Fate does include "blessings"...
>>47551279
There is nothing wrong with Touhou.
>>47551294
>>47551318
Furthermore, if not Fate, what Arcanum would be appropriate for raising Attributes other than Life and Mind?
>Increasing a Skill or Merit is typically a Ruling (••) spell. Attributes can be increased by a Perfecting (•••) spell.
This line has to be in the book for a reason. If raising Attributes with a Perfecting (•••) spell is something only Life and Mind can do, they would have left that part out of the creative thaumaturgy section and let Honing the Form and Augment Mind stand on their own.
>>47551374
If anything the social attributes could be increased by fate. But I just can't see it working for the physical or mental attributes.
>>47551374
>This line has to be in the book for a reason.
Because you can affect more things than humans. Spirit has spirits. Death has ghosts and undead (maybe vampires, but I'm not versed on them). Mind has Goetia. Matter or Prime might affect Prometheans. Etc
>>47551410
The boons for Fate include conditions like Informed, Inspired, and Steadfast.
Fate magic can literally make you more informed on a subject out of nowhere, more pumped-up to do something, or more resolute.
>>47551476
Which can be represented by an email sent to you with the information you needed.
>>47551539
That is Lucky Number (also at Fate 2), not Exceptional Luck.
By Fate 4, Chaos Mastery explicitly "manipulates brain chemistry" and "manipulates the subject’s body," as if Fate was not already doing that from Fate 2 given Exceptional Luck literally making people insane or resolute within a span of three seconds.
>>47551597
That because that is under the purview of chance. But there is never a chance of becoming super human strong.
>>47551597
No, Exceptional Luck can also cover suddenly getting an email with the exact information you needed on a subject.
Lucky Number is for, specifically, you guessing the correct answer on an input device, which has nothing to do with getting an email.
>>47551643
>>47551650
Exceptional Luck can also, within a span of three seconds, spontaneously make someone go insane for a year.
This is well beyond the domain of "chance" and more into "outright manipulating bodies and minds," which Fate 4's Chaos Mastery explicitly does.
>>47551597
Fate cannot boost your attributes or skills. It can boost your dice pools, which effects the same change, to represent luck. It cannot make someone inherently better at doing something, though, just give them good luck when doing that thing.
>>47551322
It's SJW filth.
>>47549735
Actually Walmart has greeters because theft protection security is imposing and makes customers uncomfortable while a little old man who'll guilt you for walking out with a TV prevents theft just as well. Walmart is soul sucking because they do a creepy cultist chant at the beginning of every shift.
>>47551751
>2hu is SJW filth
That word really has no meaning.
>>47551728
>>47551597
>>47551476
>>47551374
You're making assumptions and drawing conclusions from things not supported in the text. "You can cause Arm Wrack" does not in any way imply "you can increase stats".
>>47551744
Fate now covers "blessings" and "hexes" in its purview, which is why Fate 4's Chaos Mastery "manipulates brain chemistry" and "manipulates the subject’s body," and Fate 5's Forge Destiny can spontaneously turn someone into a pyrokinetic superhero by granting them the Psychokinesis Supernatural Merit.
Fate can now go well beyond mere chance and move directly into imbuing bodies and minds with extraordinary abilities or debilitations.
>>47551814
Chaos Mastery is straight up not boon or hex adjacent. It's you manipulating the chaos of a situation to impose conditions on a subject.
Forge Destiny isn't affecting someone's stats, it's granting them a powerful Destiny, which comes with special abilities.
None of the Fate spells imbue minds or bodies with extraordinary abilities or debilitations directly. All of them are indirect chance-fuckery that leads to the effect happening.
You cannot, by chance, become stronger. You CAN, by chance, hit something hard enough to break it, by happening to hit a weak point or otherwise applying your strength correctly without realizing it.
It's all fate and chance.
>>47551887
>Forge Destiny isn't affecting someone's stats, it's granting them a powerful Destiny, which comes with special abilities.
By this logic, Fate could bless someone ("blessing" is under its purview) with the destiny of "supernaturally strong hero" and then increase their Strength that way.
>It's you manipulating the chaos of a situation to impose conditions on a subject.
"Manipulates brain chemistry" and "manipulates the subjects body" are well beyond merely the chaos of a situation. Fate could manipulate someone's body to make their muscles and adrenaline just so happen to align in such a way that they grow stronger.
If Fate can bless someone into a pyrokinetic superhero, Fate can make someone stronger.
>>47551924
Except there is no "Supernaturally strong hero" merit, which is explicitly what the spell lets you bestow.
So the exact wording of the spell is fucked, who gives a shit? Giving someone straight-up dots in attributes and skills is not within the purview of Fate, AT ALL.
If you want to boost your dice pools, you can do so with Fate.
Look, I'll even show you the way to do so
>Exceptional Luck
>Boon of (Potency) dice to Athletics/other skill rolls
Congratulations! You now have (Potency) extra dice for Athletics-based rolls, which is represented fluff-wise as you getting lucky.
These are the rules. The default rules. Stop trying to worm your way into saying they say you do things that they do not say you can do.
If you want to give someone attribute-dots in your game, that's fine, take it up with your ST. But by default, that is not supported, and your ST is perfectly within their right to tell you no, and kick your ass out if you act they way you have been in these threads.
>>47551799
>creepy cultist chant at the beginning of every shift
I need to know more about this, anon. I am very interested.
Wendy'sfag here, and for a while they were trying to push this thing where at the beginning of every shift the whole crew and manager had to get in a huddle and discuss their goals of the day, then put their hands in the middle and yell "1 2 3 MY WENDY'S!"
Dunno whatever happened to that movement but it never really caught on at our store.
>>47551924
No, it can't. Please stop arguing about this. If you are Adslahnit, nothing has changed and you still have the hardest time understanding that RAI and RAW are not the same, and that using "ain't no rule says dogs can't play" logic does not actually work. Fate's purview is not increasing physical strength, and it doesn't really manipulate the body directly the way that Life does. Chaos Mastery means causing a blood clot to form, or making someone trip and snap their leg, or any number of Fate related methods of creating those conditions or situations. Forge Destiny is manipulating the strands of Fate to create a Chosen Hero. Using a pop culture example, it's unlocking the X-Gene in someone to turn them into a mutant.
You know what, how about this. This is the ultimate answer to every "but I can do this game breaking thing" question:
>Ask your ST
There is absolutely no reason to weasel around and try to argue that Fate should allow you to do something it doesn't. Especially since in 2e it is explicitly true that Magic is all about manipulating the Supernal symbols that underly reality. "Boosting someone's attribute" is not one of Fate's Supernal symbols.
>>47552402
https://www.reddit.com/r/cringe/comments/3ifv1y/walmart_morning_chant/
>Y'all motherfuckers need a union
>>47552417
Your a fate supernal symbol
>>47552355
>Giving someone straight-up dots in attributes and skills is not within the purview of Fate, AT ALL.
The purview of fate is "Blessings, hexes, probability, fortune, oaths, promises, intentions, destiny." Note the first two.
Within a span of three seconds, Fate 2's Exceptional Luck can spontaneously turn someone insane for a year.
Within a span of three seconds, Fate 4's Chaos Mastery can "manipulate brain chemistry" and "manipulate the subject's body" across multiple subjects in an entire room, without even spending Reach.
Within a span of three seconds, Fate 5's Forge Destiny can give someone Supernatural Merits, turning them into a biokinetic/psychokinetic/telekinetic superhero.
The creative thaumaturgy rules allow a Perfecting spell (3 dots) to directly raise Attributes.
All of the above should allow Fate to operate under its purview of "blessings" to directly raise attributes with a Fate 3 spell, by way of blessing and manipulation brain chemistry and subject's bodies.
>>47552480
Stop trying to rules lawyer this. The book even spells out what a Blessing and a Hex is. They give bonuses to rolls, not stats.
>>47552480
I should have followed >>47551279 example and left you alone. By the way these are the Boons.
http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/904465-ephemeral-vassalage-–-merits
>>47552417
>Chaos Mastery means causing a blood clot to form, or making someone trip and snap their leg, or any number of Fate related methods of creating those conditions or situations.
These are two options under Chaos Mastery:
>>• The mage manipulates brain chemistry to cause hallucinations or produce emotional responses, imposing suitable Conditions such as Swooning, Guilty, or Broken.
>• The mage manipulates the subject’s body to create complex medical conditions, causing appropriate Conditions such as Addicted, Disabled, or Blind.
You are telling me that, by chance, someone's brain and body chemistry could, within a span of three seconds, just so happen to align in such a way to make them spontaneously broken inside for a non-negligible duration, or paralyze them for a non-negligible duration.
Why are the brain and body allowed to mutate in such absurdly unlikely negative fashions, but not allowed to mutate in such a way as to bolster a body's muscles or nerves, or a brain's cognitive abilities?
>Forge Destiny is manipulating the strands of Fate to create a Chosen Hero. Using a pop culture example, it's unlocking the X-Gene in someone to turn them into a mutant.
You are also telling me that the strands of Fate can be woven to create a pyrokinetic/electrokinetic/cryokinetic superhero (or even a superhero who shifts around their body's properties with biokinesis) within a span of three seconds, but not a super-strong or super-intelligent superhero. Why is this the case?
>>47552510
>>47552534
Fate can grant blessings and hexes, but it can bless people in ways other than granting one of the listed boons (exactly what Forge Destiny does), and it can hex people in ways outside of the listed hexes (Chaos Mastery goes well outside of the realm of the listed hexes).
>>47552480
Except NONE of the example Fate spells affect Attributes at all, and Boons(which are probably what it means by Blessings, since Hexes are listed there but Boons aren't) DOESN'T mention attributes.
Within a span of 3 seconds, Life 5's Create Life can create a new Lifeform ex nihilo.
That doesn't mean you can use lesser dot ratings in Life to give someone telekinesis, because such a thing doesn't actually fit in Life's purview.
Saying "Within a span of three seconds" means absolutely jack shit, so stop saying it.
Also, you're straight up wrong. Exceptional Luck only lasts 1 turn, unless you spend Reach, and at Fate 2, you're either spending that Reach on "Within a span of three seconds" or "for more than 1 turn", unless you wanna risk Paradox.
Stop being such an autistic faggot. Take it up with your ST, or burn the fucking book, because you aren't going to get anybody telling you "Yes, you're right anon, you can ignore these rules and misinterpret these ones in order to do this thing" anywhere on /tg/
>>47552635
>You are telling me that, by chance, someone's brain and body chemistry could, within a span of three seconds, just so happen to align in such a way to make them spontaneously broken inside for a non-negligible duration, or paralyze them for a non-negligible duration.
Yes. Now stop asking questions.
>>47552635
>Fate can grant blessings and hexes, but it can bless people in ways other than granting one of the listed boons (exactly what Forge Destiny does), and it can hex people in ways outside of the listed hexes (Chaos Mastery goes well outside of the realm of the listed hexes).
holy shit are you retarded?
nevermind the answer is obviously yes
Chaos Mastery and Forge Destiny aren't Hexes and Boons. The spells that ARE are explicitly called out as such in the descriptions.
>Exceptional Luck
>Pariah
That's it. Those are the Boon and Hex-based spells. The others are using entirely different systems to affect people by fucking with chance.
>Why is this the case?
It's the case because making someone Super Strong is something you do with Life, directly(+dots in physical attributes) or Forces, indirectly(+dice on specific attribute-based rolls by weaving/fraying the forces that act on them or whatever they're affecting. Making someone Super Smart is something you do with Mind.
Fate? Fate makes you lucky or unlucky. That's it.
Now SHUT THE FUCK UP.
>>47552640
>That doesn't mean you can use lesser dot ratings in Life to give someone telekinesis, because such a thing doesn't actually fit in Life's purview.
If Fate is anything to go by, you could probably grant the Telekinesis Merit at Life 5 under the "evolution" and "metamorphosis" parts of its purview.
>Saying "Within a span of three seconds" means absolutely jack shit, so stop saying it.
It means that these are no chance occurrences that take periods of time to set into motion. They are very much instantaneous shifts in bodies and minds.
>Also, you're straight up wrong. Exceptional Luck only lasts 1 turn, unless you spend Reach, and at Fate 2, you're either spending that Reach on "Within a span of three seconds" or "for more than 1 turn", unless you wanna risk Paradox.
With a Rote for Exceptional Luck (a very good idea given how versatile it is), you have four free Reaches. Spend one on instant action casting, another for sensory range, another on Advanced Duration, and another on whatever you want.
Since your dice pool is likely to be very high if you have a Rote (pick your highest Skill and make that your universal Rote Skill, even better if you have it under your Order's specialties), you can take penalties to increase the duration.
Placing a hex on someone for a year with Exceptional Luck is risky and superfluous (better to simply try to increase Potency to get past Withstand, or leave the dice pool untouched to blow past Withstand with an exceptional success), but it is certainly possible.
>>47552635
By chance my mother went from a living person to a dying in a few seconds. All because of a blood clot. So yes I fucking expect you to accept that. Sudden chages can change your whole life.
>>47552748
Was your mom hot?
>>47552748
Did she die? I really hope she's a rotting sack of flesh in the ground now. Stop avoiding his fucking argument because you can't counter it.
>>47552635
Because when things fall apart, they typically do not put themselves back together.
>>47552748
That is easy to rationalize.
Someone spontaneously become insane (but only for a while!) or a psychokinetic or biokinetic superhero (again, only for a while) is much harder to justify as pure "chance."
>>47552770
People have repeatedly been countering it. You're clearly not the person arguing (that'd be Adslahnit or some Touhoufag wannabe), so why do you even care?
>>47552722
>That's it. Those are the Boon and Hex-based spells. The others are using entirely different systems to affect people by fucking with chance.
I disagree. But I still think this argument is stupid anyway and "you can give someone a blood clot so you can also give them super strength" is pretty fucking stupid and an argument that would never fly.
>>47552795
Not harder in a Chronicle of Darkness.
Again, your X-gene activates.
>>47552784
>Because when things fall apart, they typically do not put themselves back together.
Except that they do, in the case of Fate's spells with a duration other than Lasting.
With Fate 2's Exceptional Luck, you can render someone spontaneously insane for a temporary duration, at which point the hex on them wears off.
That is not chance. That is directly manipulating bodies and minds to instigate a "blessing" or a "hex," which is exactly under Fate's purview.
>>47552813
No, you little faggots have been avoiding the argument, and shitting yourself in rage when he dares to continue. Go stroke out and join your fucking mother.
>>47552818
It is manipulating them through the manipulation of chance. Why are you even arguing about this? Have you even had a stable group since you and Luna broke up? I thought you stopped bothering with WoD and moved on to Pathfinder because that was a system that supported your gamebreaking rules lawyering. I also thought you moved from Touhou to catboys and mermaid shotas.
>>47552813
>"you can give someone a blood clot so you can also give them super strength"
If you can manipulate someone's brain chemistry to make them insane, you can manipulate their brain chemistry to make them smarter.
If you can manipulate the chemicals in their body to literally paralyze someone (which Chaos Mastery allows you to do), you can manipulate the adrenaline in someone's body to make them stronger, and regulate themselves in such a fashion as to be safe for the body.
>Not harder in a Chronicle of Darkness.
>Again, your X-gene activates.
If you can make someone a superhero who literally manipulates the properties of their body using Biokinesis, you can make someone a stupendously strong or smart superhero as well.
>>47552844
My preferred systems nowadays are Strike! (mostly for its combat; its noncombat side is a mess), D&D 4e, 13th Age, Fate, PbtA games other than Dungeon World, and Legends of the Wulin, all of which should be house ruled to refine their many rough edges.
Touhoufag wins
>>47552940
>you can manipulate their brain chemistry to make them smarter.
No you can't. That's not how it works. If it was, it would say that.
>You play Apocalypse World
Why. There's barely any rules for you to break.
But you know what, that's a good time for a segue. I want to ask the thread about Monsterhearts and if anyone's ever played it. It's tangential to WoD, and uses the Powered by the Apocalypse Engine. It's a game about teenage monsters fucking each other with "totally no strings attached" sex that has tons of strings attached and everyone is sleeping with and backstabbing each other.
>>47550326
They are already in shit country as shovelheads as it is. The ST doesn't need to put the players in shit also. :^)
How much of this thread is Aspel?
>>47553136
I'm Aspel
>>47551279
Hilarious
5 more hours
>>47553181
I like how the reveal of Aspel ended touhoufags responses.
>>47553437
Not even tohoufag wants to deal with him.
>>47553437
>>47553449
That's not actually Aspel, and Touhoufag knows Aspel is the only one who calls him Adslahnit, so he kept going regardless.
>>47553462
So if the guy who calling himself Aspel is not Aspel, then who is Aspel?
Is it you?
>>47553499
Nice try, Aspel.
>>47553499
Yes. But also you.
We are all Aspel.
We are Legion.
>>47553511
Not Aspel.
Okay but seriously, how come Fate can give a mortal pyrokinesis?
With Time 4, a mage can cast Present as Past, spend 1 Mana, use a Reach for instant action casting, shake someone's hand, and then instantly remove Potency (minimum 4, or even 5 or 6 if the mage takes a -2 or -4 penalty) in Doors to Socially maneuver against the target.
This is not mind control, emotional control, or doing anything overtly supernatural. There is no Withstand against this. This is simply saying exactly the right thing at exactly the right time.
Is this correct? If so, then Time mages must be excellent non-mind-control-based social engineers.
It also seems that Time 4 and Space 2 are enough to teleport someone across the world using Temporal Stutter. Space 4 is unneeded.
Time mages hardly have just Temporal Sympathy, Choose the Thread, and Temporal Summoning up their sleeves.
>>47554389
>and then instantly remove Potency in Doors to Socially maneuver against the target.
>There is no Withstand against this.
errr...
>>47554400
>Present as Past (Time ••••)
>Practice: Patterning
>Primary Factor: Potency
>Cost: 1 Mana
>Suggested Rote Skills: Empathy, Investigation, Streetwise
>Weaving between the many immediate potential futures, the mage can read the immediate futures of her subjects and react accordingly to thwart (or aid) their plans. In combat, while this spell is in effect, the player can require that every character affected by the spell declare his or her action at the start of every turn. The player need not declare her own action, but instead can choose to act freely at any point within the Initiative order. This trumps all other supernatural Initiative effects save for those created by the Time Arcanum, which requires a Clash of Wills.
>In Social situations, the mage adds Doors equal to Potency when the target of Social maneuvering by her subject, or removes them from a subject she is maneuvering against.
There is no Withstanding Present as Past. At least Temporal Summoning (and anything that uses Temporal Sympathy in general) has to break through a Withstand rating.
If a mage with Time 4 wishes to persuade you to do something, they will convince you without having to supernaturally touch your mind.
>>47554418
>Time is better at Mind than Mind
Well I hope that's an errata fix
>>47554441
>mfw I just pictures a Mastigos saying "It's time to show Time what time it is."
>>47554441
It is very convenient for a mage with Time 4 and Space 2 to be able to learn of someone having done something bad, travel back in time with Shifting Sands and a Reach, teleport across the world with Temporal Stutter, "mundanely" convince the subject against undertaking the act in question, and then reflexively dismiss Shifting Sands to snap back to the present.
>>47554441
That's not better than Mind.
>>47554418
>>47554389
>>47554486
You do understand that's basically watching yourself get the answer in the future and then doing it in the present, right?
You really do not have a grasp on how the game works, and you keep making assumptions about things based solely on what mechanically is happening without any regard to the actual context. This kind of behavior and a failure to understand other human beings is why you end up constantly coming on /tg/ to ask if you somehow fucked something up in the most recent Roll20 game you were kicked from, only to have everyone unanimously tell you that, yes, you did.
>>47554506
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
>>47554545
>And smells bit weird.
Vampire!
>>47551322
There is plenty wrong with Touhou. Namely that the mechanics just cannot fucking support the narrative.
>>47554418
Prophesy also removes doors equal to potency for a reach, for similar reasons.
>>47554506
They're not wrong though. Acanthus are phenomenal social engineers. It's part of the witch shtick.
>>47554602
Prophecy is a bit more inconvenient to use for this purpose, since, unless you have a Rote for it, you have only one free Reach for it at Time 4.
That means you then have to cast with ritual time, which must be inconvenient to do in front of your mark.
>>47554669
Not with the Time 4 Attainment...
>>47554721
Ah, yes, you are correct.
In that case, Prophecy would indeed work just as well as Present as Past for Social maneuvering, if not even better.
Put it on Praxis and you may even be able to recoup your Mana expenditures and then some.
This is Thunderbolt, a Forces 4 spell.
Observe how it does nothing but damage, has little versatility, and is blatantly obviously, thereby making it unfeasible in the presence of mortals.
>>47554830
GotV pls go.
>>47554830
This is Chaos Mastery, a Fate 4 spell.
Chaos Mastery comes with a wide variety of effects, has built-in sensory range (Thunderbolt is touch range by default), and gives you several "shots" with which to apply those effects across multiple targets in a room, possibly aiming them all at a single target to inflict several times more damage than Thunderbolt.
This is a Fate effect that can have completely under-the-radar effects, like heart attacks or people tripping and hitting their heads.
Why is this allowed?
>>47554851
>Why is this allowed?
Because you're comparing Unraveling with Patterning.
Fundamentally different uses.
>>47554931
Under what circumstances is Thunderbolt better than Chaos Mastery? The only one I can think of is "We absolutely need lightning against this, as opposed to one of a hundred other possible twists of fate that apply with far greater effectiveness."
Even then, Chaos Mastery could most likely generate a freak electrical accident or lightning bolt strike anyway.
>>47554959
Thunderbolt for when you need a Thunderbolt.
Out of fucking nowhere.
To fry someone or something to a crisp, or scare the shit outta someone.
>>47554976
Please see above.
>Even then, Chaos Mastery could most likely generate a freak electrical accident or lightning bolt strike anyway.
A Potency 7 Thunderbolt with Forces 4 will deal 7 lethal damage, with one Reach spent for instant action casting and another Reach spent for sensory range (which goes over free Reach short of a Rote).
A Potency 7 Chaos Mastery with Fate 4 will deal (7 + 4) × 7 = 77 lethal damage, with one Reach for instant action casting and built-in sensory range. That is most likely overkill, but that is okay, because the mage can turn to other targets.
Chaos Mastery can also inflict far more effects than mere damage.
>>47555006
Note the difference
>Behold my power! That electrical socket just zapped him
>Behold my power! I throw lighting from my fucking hands, I am GOD!
>>47555032
One of these is more likely to cause Dissonance than the other.
>>47555047
And?
Reduce it to mere maths, and Time + Mind is the best option for nearly everything.
Game should be more that about the most efficient way to do something. So grow the fuck up, and have some fun.
>>47555062
Not who you're arguing with, but I don't think there's a problem with pointing out that Forces isn't actually as useful as Fate.
>>47555062
I would personally say that Fate and Time are the two main "winners" of the Arcana this time around, compared to Mind being the "golden child" in Mage 1e. Path Acanthus mages must be very pleased.
That said, Mind is a very good runner up due to Telepathic Domination and Augment Mind. The latter can be used by a starting mage to max out a few Mental and Social Attributes with ease, for no Mana cost and for a long duration. Of course, if Fate can also "manipulate brain chemistry" to make people Insane, Informed, Inspired, or Steadfast, then Fate could very well accomplish the same.
>>47555006
It makes me very, very sad that Forces isn't the best option zapping a motherfucker.
Forces is really supposed to be THE 'Shitting Fireballs and Lightning' area.
>>47555111
There's a lot to be said for the benefits of Patterning the fundamental forces...
>Reading the thread on the OP Forums about Chaos Mastery.
It seems like the vast majority of these people have no fucking clue what they're talking about or how anything works.
>>47555180
Would you like to use Transform Energy, a Forces 4 Patterning spell? Very well.
You will need a Reach for instant action casting, and another Reach if you want to affect something at sensory range (a good idea since the spell does not single you out). The default Scale is "arm's reach from a central point," and the default Duration is "one turn" (three seconds), but you can take penalties or spend more Reaches to improve this.
Suppose you manage to transform stadium lights to main line electricity. According to page 224 of Mage 2e, that will deal 10 bashing damage per turn and potentially immobilize the target. Impressive!
The competition here is a mage with Fate 4 using Chaos Mastery to do unload an ungodly amount of damage, potentially against a wide area by taking penalties for Scale or spending a Reach for Advanced Scale anyway. In this case, the Fate mage proves superior due to the sheer numerical advantage of (Potency + Fate) × Potency lethal damage, and far more versatile due to the number of options applicable as well.
This is Social Networking, a Mind 5 spell. Undoubtedly useful, albeit stifled by the fact that it can only ever have one free Reach, and the usual tactic of casting a spell as an instant action with an hour-long duration will take two Reaches for this spell.
>>47555270
Anon, who gives a fuck about damage.
I mean really.
That's the most bargain bin of effects.
Especially for a game about fucking Mages.
>>47555341
This is Shifting the Odds, a Fate 2 spell. Observe how with its +1 Reach upgrade, it is a strong contender against Mind 5's Social Networking. Its uses are limited by Potency (a bit inconvenient when Duration is the primary factor), but this is no issue when there is no cost to cast it anyway.
It is also generally much more versatile than Social Networking.
Mage 2e presents an unprecedented scenario wherein Mind is having its niche outdone by other Arcana, at least for some of the premade Mind spells.
>>47555355
>>47555341
Who even gives a shit anymore? The game is out, and after what happened with Beast I sincerely doubt that there will be any large scale editing of powers. Just enjoy the game for what it is, read the lore, and go on with your life.
>>47555353
Damage actually *works* for Chaos Mastery due to the sheer quantity involved. Few creatures can survive a Potency 7 Chaos Mastery with Fate 4, which generates eleven instances of 7 lethal damage (77 lethal damage total). These can be concentrated on a single target as spread out as needed, and the spell in question has built-in sensory range.
The spell also happens to be able to create a variety of other effects (such as reducing a victim's next roll to a chance die regardless of how high it was), and the five-item list in Chaos Mastery is non-exhaustive.
>>47555129
Don't ignore Space. Space is still really good.
>>47555378
And that's Murder. Well done. You're so creative.
>>47555399
That, I can agree with. Fate and Time are probably at the top, with Mind as a good runner up, and Space as a slightly less good runner up.
Space and Time are, appropriately enough, quite synergistic due to combining Spatial and Temporal Sympathies (and then blowing past all Withstand ratings with an exceptional success). It also helps that Time 4 and Space 2 alone are sufficient to teleport across the world.
Space 1's Correspondence can immediately solve an investigation, especially with a Rote. Space 2's Break Boundary can circumvent many obstacles. Space 3's Ban is also a deeply unfair spell, since it cages in a target with no hope of escape whatsoever.
Ironically, Space 2's Scrying is not quite as useful as it once was, though it is still very good.
In other words, Acanthus are probably at the top of the pile now, with Mastigos as a solid runner-up. Better still if you can mix and match Fate, Mind, Space, and/or Time using a Legacy.
>>47555412
There is nothing quite like using Chaos Mastery to reduce all of the opposition's pools to chance dice when they need it most.
Is it just me, or are Legacy Attainments mostly worthless?
Due to the heavy restrictions upon them (especially their Reach limitations, which have to be spent on instant action "casting" and sensory range anyway), they are almost strictly worse than simply using a spell outright. Furthermore, none of them provide a passive effect, so it is not as though they offer an appreciable Spell Control benefit.
Out of the two 2e Legacies we have seen so far, the Eleventh Question and the Nagaraja, none of their second, third, fourth, and fifth Attainments are worth the 1 XP a piece, compared to simply casting a spell outright. It seems far more prudent to enter a Legacy for the Oblations, the Yantras, the Ruling Arcanum, and the first Attainment than for any successive Attainments.
>>47553019
Why would't they play PbtA? It's a very solid ruleset when you get its vibe.
Anyways, I played Monsterhearts more in a Clone High meets Dark Shadows style way than full YA paranormal romance and I liked it a lot. It's very good at simulating teen drama.
>>47555966
That said, perhaps the single most mechanically useful Attainment so far is the first part of the Eleventh Question's first Attainment (which you will want in order to gain Time as a Ruling Arcanum and some Oblations and Yantras anyway).
>First: The Undisturbed Scene
>Prerequisites: Initiation
>The Querent develops an uncanny ability to reach places of interest before nature and human hands wipe away evidence she wishes to find. The authorities haven’t arrived yet to destroy subtle information, or they (or someone trying to cover her tracks) didn’t have the opportunity to do a thorough job. The Attainment emulates “Perfect Timing” (p. 187) in that the mage gains bonus dice equal to her Time dots to rolls that gather information from a location.
"Rolls that gather information" is very broad and can cover anything from library research to crime scene investigation to, yes, using Focused Mage Sight to gather information about a location's supernatural mysteries.
Everything past this, however, is of highly questionable utility. For instance:
>Optional: Matter 1
>The Querent also may engage Active Mage Sight (Matter) upon arrival. If it must pierce any form of supernatural concealment, it automatically scores successes equal to the mage’s Matter dots.
What is the purpose of this? This does not remove the usual minutes/scene limitation or the near-global -2 penalty. Using Active Mage Sight the regular way would let a Moros/Eleventh Question activate Death, Matter, and Time Active Mage Sight all at once. The only benefit to this is the automatic successes replacing a roll, which might be relevant once in a blue moon.
>>47556155
I personally find Urban Shadows to be a PbtA clone of [World/Chronicles] of Darkness that manages to be smoother and more archetype-encouraging than the clunky simulationist/narrative blend of Chronicles of Darkness. I would strongly recommend it to anyone looking for an alternative to [W/C]oD.
>>47556204
I've been meaning to check out Urban Shadows, I dig that it goes whole hog into "this monster is a metaphor for this aspect of the city" that CofD brushes up against. Any tips about its system?
>>47555966
Even without thinking too much about it, Legacy Attainments have one major factor that cannot be discounted.
Their use doesn't incur Acts of Hubris.
>>47556251
Urban Shadows ultimately is not too different from Apocalypse World, down to favors effectively being a currency. There is not much to say about it that does not apply to most other PbtA games.
Know that the Aware playbook is intended to facilitate a rapidly crashing-and-burning character who is weaker than everyone else. Those interested in playing a "competent mortal" should turn to the Hunter or the Veteran. I am also positive that the Wizard is by far the most powerful of all the playbooks, especially when you compare the Wizard's magic to the Fae's magic, and wish that the writers had veered away from usual "Wizard is bestest."
There are several fan-made (old and new) World of Darkness expansions to Urban Shadows if you truly feel the need to play a vaguely "authentic" Uratha or Awakened or what-have-you. A Google search should take you to them.
>>47556284
More or less nothing in the Eleventh Question is something that would incur an Act of Hubris anyway.
That leaves us with the Nagaraja, who do sidestep Acts of Hubris, but are shunned as a Left-Handed Legacy anyway.
>>47556399
Thanks, I'll keep those in mind! I'll probably play with the core playbooks first before dipping into the WoD fan-playbooks. I've been burned by poor fan-playbooks too much to jump into those blind.
>>47554545
None of that was actually an ad hominem, all of it including the attack on character and personal traits was related to the core argument.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy
>>47556588
Game group politics aren't related to taking a peek at rules under the hood.
>>47556588
It really isn't, it's just you being a huge dick to someone and pretending that's the argument. I should know, I do that all the time. It's not even like their analysis is even that controversial, the whole point of the Arcana is that in theory you could create the same sorts of effects as other Arcana, it's just through increasingly roundabout ways. Of course you could find a way to raise Attributes using Fate, as long as you've got the right Imago.
>>47555966
Find the spells that give good benefits when they automatically succeed, and primarily affect yourself, or to those within a small AoE if you want to cast at range.
Personally, I created a /pol/ Meme Magician attainment using the rules in the book; it's an Acanthus/Free Council tradition with Mind as its third Ruling Path, all about using memes to manipulate the Astral, and thereby alter the Fate of humanity.
This spell in particular >>47555355 is sort of ridiculous as an Attainment. "Oh, yeah, I've got pretty much every Social Merit I want at a number of dots equal to my Fate score, and if I go looking for something in particular, I'm guaranteed to find it within 24 hours."
>>47554613
Well, yeah, but that's easy when you can literally see the right answer. I was more criticizing the lack of understanding WHY they can do what they do, as opposed to denying they can. You don't remove Doors and then demand someone give you the book and they're now so weak willed that they'll do it. You look into the future, see what it takes to get them to give you the book (casually remind them of their dead mother, threaten their child, know the right bribe) and then do that.
Calling it Mind Control is not only misleading, it's flat out wrong. Besides, a Mastigos can outright dominate you and ignore Social Maneuvering, or rewrite your personality.
>>47555966
Adslahnit, I'm not at all surprised that you continued well passed the original anon's eight hour prediction, but things like this remind me that you play this game less than I do, and understand it less than people on Roll20 who've never played it before and put Caine in an alternate reality nWoD.
>>47556155
>Why would't they play PbtA?
Because their obsession is intricate mechanical complexity and PbtA has zero of that. This is the person who broke 4e before it was released, remember? Or a copy cat, at least, though that's looking less and less like a reality.
Then again, he did just talk about how there's a particular "best option" in a narrative game.
>>47556599
They are when the "peek under the hood" attitude isn't just for peeking under the hood, but for use in a game.
>>47556635
You can't. "The right Imago" doesn't allow you to do anything and everything. You can't use Space to heal someone no matter what Imago you're using, because that's not within Space's purview.
>>47556635
>Of course you could find a way to raise Attributes using Fate, as long as you've got the right Imago.
I figure that "I envision my character anointing the subject with blessed strings of fate that allow them to realize their destiny as a super-[strong/smart] superhero" is not too far a leap from "I envision my character anointing the subject with blessed strings of fate that allow them to realize their destiny as a biokinetic body-enhancing superhero."
>>47556684
The problem there is the way Reach works for Attainments. As per page 198, a two-dot spell would need to be a FOUR-dot Attainment in order to have three free Reaches. Furthermore, a Reach still needs to be spent on instant action casting.
Shifting the Odds requires three Reaches for an instant action activation, Advanced Duration (otherwise, it expires in a matter of turns), and the "find the desired object within one hour" effect.
This means that you are looking at a prerequisite of Fate 4 and Gnosis 6/7 just for that Attainment, at which point you may as well just cast the spell yourself.
>>47556764
>Calling it Mind Control is not only misleading, it's flat out wrong.
At no point did I refer to it as "mind control." What I said was: "This is not mind control, emotional control, or doing anything overtly supernatural."
>Besides, a Mastigos can outright dominate you and ignore Social Maneuvering, or rewrite your personality.
A far less socially polite thing to do, something with undesirable aftereffects, and something that can be Withstood. You certainly do not wish for anyone's supernatural senses against mental manipulation to be triggered, would you now?
>>47556764
PbtA is actually more complex than people give it credit for, it's just that its complexity lies in playbook design and MC mechanic design, rather than in the actual playing of the game. This is why making a game in the system is actually very difficult.
>You can't use Space to heal someone no matter what Imago you're using, because that's not within Space's purview.
You can't teleport medical supplies to your person? The keyword there is "the same sort of effect" not "literally the same effect". It's not going to be good as a Life spell, but you're still healing them. That's the whole point of being able to do anything with any Arcana, but in increasingly roundabout ways. Mages don't take up another Arcana because they can't do something, they take up another Arcana because it makes that something easier to do with the added benefit of a broader look at the Tapestry of the universe. Eventually there's hard limits, but you can get a lot more versatility with an Arcana than you'd expect by thinking outside the box.
>>47556894
>Shifting the Odds requires three Reaches for an instant action activation, Advanced Duration (otherwise, it expires in a matter of turns), and the "find the desired object within one hour" effect.
Nah, two dot attainment. Duration doesn't really matter when it's a self-focused Attainment, since you can just freely use it again whenever the duration expires, outside of structured combat time. It's a part of your soul; you don't risk Paradox or need to roll any dice. It just works.
>I figure that "I envision my character anointing the subject with blessed strings of fate that allow them to realize their destiny as a super-[strong/smart] superhero" is not too far a leap from "I envision my character anointing the subject with blessed strings of fate that allow them to realize their destiny as a biokinetic body-enhancing superhero."
So give them a Boon that boosts their Strength- or Intelligence-based rolls. Or you can just say that you're giving them the Biokinesis or Telekinesis merit to boost their strength (like some superheroes do - Superman's a contact telekinetic, for instance), or merits like Mind of a Madman or Omen Reader to represent boosting their intelligence to superhuman levels.
>>47554830
>>47554851
It's almost like the Sublte Arcanum are capable of doing things without being obvious about it, and the Gross Arcanum are all blatant acts of magic
>>47555270
Chaos Mastery has a specific number of targets, that of your Potency+Fate. Advanced Scale won't change that number
>>47555378
>These can be concentrated on a single target
We had this argument a while back. It can't, each effect in the list can only be applied to one person.
>>47555966
Legacy Attainments have reduced mana costs, can't be dispelled/counter-spelled, and don't risk Paradox.
>>47556894
They aren't realizing their Destiny, with Forge Destiny, though. you're literally forging one and attaching it to them. Having higher attribute ratings isn't something that can come from a Destiny.
>>47556971
Space can give you the ability to better heal someone, yes. That's not using magic to heal them, though. Fate could give you a syringe of liquid supercrack, but it couldn't give you direct increases to your Attributes. There's thinking outside of the box and then there's ignoring the Arcana and Practices entirely.
>>47556990
That's not what they want. They want "Augment Mind and/or Honing the Form" as a Fate spell.
>>47556990
>Duration doesn't really matter when it's a self-focused Attainment, since you can just freely use it again whenever the duration expires, outside of structured combat time.
Would this not be considered a "new casting"? There is no guarantee that activating Shifting the Odds again once the previous activation ends will continue the duration, rather than resetting it.
>So give them a Boon that boosts their Strength- or Intelligence-based rolls.
I would much rather use the creative thaumaturgy guideline of a Perfecting spell directly improving Attributes.
>>47556991
>It's almost like the Sublte Arcanum are capable of doing things without being obvious about it, and the Gross Arcanum are all blatant acts of magic
And it just so happens that Fate, in this case, is actually superior to Forces at selectively devastating targets.
>Chaos Mastery has a specific number of targets, that of your Potency+Fate. Advanced Scale won't change that number
You receive your Potency + Fate in "useful patterns," not in targets.
>It can't, each effect in the list can only be applied to one person.
I would like a citation for this.
>Legacy Attainments have reduced mana costs
To a minimum of 1. Bear in mind that the vast majority of spells cost no Mana to begin with.
>can't be dispelled/counter-spelled
A small benefit, but perhaps stymied by the highly limited scope of Attainments.
>don't risk Paradox
It is rather difficult to risk Paradox with the less visible output of the Arcana unless you deliberately Reach past your free Reaches, which you cannot even opt to do with an Attainment.
>They aren't realizing their Destiny, with Forge Destiny, though. you're literally forging one and attaching it to them.
The imago is more metaphorical than the actual reality.
>>47557113
>I would much rather use the creative thaumaturgy guideline of a Perfecting spell directly improving Attributes.
This isn't an option for all Arcana. Matter, for instance, can't increase your Strength, either. In fact, nothing besides Life can really do that.
If you really want to do it, then talk to your ST. Try not to argue with them for several hours when they say no.
Do you ever wonder if these kind of discussions are why Dave and Chris haven't been posting as often?
>>47557040
Except we're not talking about ignoring the Arcana and Practices, the discussion is about using the Practices and the Arcana to their natural end-point. Their conclusions are incredibly silly, but given that having different Practice/Arcana combos at different levels leading to similar or even equivalent effects is acknowledged in the game, the logic checks out.
The heart of the argument doesn't actually seem to be any real rules disagreement, but rather a difference in view of the rules. They see RAW and RAI as the same, you don't. Depending on whose table we're at at, both of you could be right.
>>47557194
Dave's been trying to get Mage 2e to PoD and finishing his FAQ and Chris straight up runs a business. Trust me, Adslahnit and Aspel trading glove slaps is not the reason why they aren't posting here as often.
The Freelance Lyfe is busy as hell.
>>47557197
>Their conclusions are incredibly silly
Then they should stop talking.
>>47557113
>>47557113
>I would like a citation for this.
Spell stacking, boyo. You could, theoretically, apply every use of the spell to damaging one guy, but he's only ever going to take the highest damage of any of them in one action.
>>47557113
>It is rather difficult to risk Paradox with the less visible output of the Arcana unless you deliberately Reach past your free Reaches, which you cannot even opt to do with an Attainment.
To use an example spell you've been talking about, an Attainment could cause the stadium lights to emit main-line Electricity, something OBVIOUSLY magical, without incurring any Paradox.
You now have an Attainment that can change large amounts of light into electricity. Congrats.
>The imago is more metaphorical than the actual reality.
No. The spell, Forge Destiny, is LITERALLY you FORGING a DESTINY. That's why it's MAKING spell.
>>47557282
Why wouldn't you just use Thunderbolt as an example? Also, the common argument is that damage doesn't count when spell stacking. I wouldn't let that fly at my table, though.
>>47557197
"Fate can give Attribute boosts" is very much ignoring the Arcana. In fact, the same could be said of Life giving social Attributes, since Mage very much ascribes to Cartesian Dualism.
>>47557260
From the response they seem to get they should absolutely keep talking. This isn't much different from the peasant railgun or the bag of holding death spear in D&D.
Besides, it takes two to tango on derails like these. All you gotta do is just not respond.
>>47557282
>Spell stacking, boyo.
"When multiple spells affect the same aspect of a character the effects of the spells do not stack, and instead the spell with the highest Potency takes effect. For example, a character benefitting from a spell that grants her +1 Strength casts a spell that grants her +3 Strength. The original spell with +1 Strength is suppressed for the Duration of the new spell. Both spell’s Durations continue to lapse, though only the highest Potency spell is active."
Chaos Mastery is a single spell that applies multiple effects, possibly against a single target. It is not, in fact, multiple spells.
>To use an example spell you've been talking about, an Attainment could cause the stadium lights to emit main-line Electricity, something OBVIOUSLY magical, without incurring any Paradox.
It would take a five-dot attainment (requiring a staggering Gnosis 8/9) to do so with two free Reaches for instant action usage and sensory range. Your actual spells by then can reach far greater heights.
>No. The spell, Forge Destiny, is LITERALLY you FORGING a DESTINY. That's why it's MAKING spell.
You are sidestepping my point entirely. The imago in question involves a mortal being blessed with biokinetic superpowers... or, thanks to Fate being able to manipulate brain and body chemistry, super-strength or super-intelligence.
>>47557324
>Also, the common argument is that damage doesn't count when spell stacking.
Spell stacking concerns multiple spells. Chaos Mastery is a single spell.
>>47557331
The peasant railgun of 3.X fame only works up until the point wherein it is thrown, as there are no rules for momentum, and thus the projectile would deal only standard thrown weapon damage.
>>47557331
But the peasant railgun literally doesn't work. And if you mean Bag of Holding Death Sphere, that's actually a rule; a portable hole in a Bag of Holding, it creates a rift to the Astral Plane that destroys the bag, the hole, and everything in ten feet.
>>47557381
Fate's being able to manipulate brain and body chemistry does not allow it to grant Attribute dots.
>>47557040
You know, I think I'm inspired to create a superhero-themed Legacy. Free Council/Adamantine Arrow/Obrimos, Life Ruling, Oblations would probably involve martial arts practice, immersing yourself in your superhero identity, etc.
Attainment 1: Cleanse the Body + Kinetic Efficiency
Attainment 2: Web of Life (extended duration) + Kinetic Blow
Attainment 3: Transform Life (ritual donning of superhero identity, extended duration) + Velocity Control
Attainment 4: Honing the Form (ritual donning of superhero identity, extended duration + extra attributes) + Turn Momentum (reflexive, control over direction)
Attainment 5: Mend (instant speed + full night's rest) + Levitation (ritual donning of superhero identity, extended duration + fluid flight)
All of these attainments apply to the user of them only, of course.
You guys still at it, I see
>>47557454
The unstoppable force has truly met the immovable object. Honestly, though, I'd prefer this to yet another Beast derail, especially since there Ready Made Character pack for it is coming soon. Apparently there's a Changeling in the Brood.
>>47557413
>And if you mean Bag of Holding Death Sphere, that's actually a rule; a portable hole in a Bag of Holding, it creates a rift to the Astral Plane that destroys the bag, the hole, and everything in ten feet.
This is untrue. "If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane: The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the process." The creatures are free to simply find a color pool back to their plane of origin, or else Plane Shift back.
>Fate's being able to manipulate brain and body chemistry does not allow it to grant Attribute dots.
Manipulating brain and body chemistry is strongly implied under Fate 2's Exceptional Luck's capacities (spontaneously turning people Insane, Inspired, Informed, or Steadfast), and it is explicitly stated under Fate 4's Chaos Mastery. The creative thaumaturgy rules allow a Perfecting spell to directly raise Attribute dots, and Fate just so happens to have "blessings" and "hexes" under its purview, so this should be legal.
>>47557443
Various Legacies in Mage 1e were very much already "superhero Legacies," most notably the Perfected Adepts and the Brotherhood of the Demon Wind. It should be noted that the Shadow Name Merit is particularly appropriate for a superhero, sentai member, or magical girl/boy.
>>47557454
I must depart soon, so unfortunately, I will no longer be "at it."
>>47557443
I made a non-superhero Dynasty for a character that was a superhero (his schtick was that he didn't know he was a wizzard baby, back when that was viable for Proximi). He had almost all of those powers.
I used Prime for some Green Lantern type stuff, though. Celestial Fire, the one that creates objects, the one that creates armour.
You might also want to consider tweaking it so that their Attainments are only while acting under their Persona. Attainment rituals are a scene long, which means no ducking into a phone booth, but at the same time your one ritual costuming would mean your power boost lasts weeks at a time.
>>47557502
>The creative thaumaturgy rules allow a Perfecting spell to directly raise Attribute dots
Every Arcana cannot do every thing. You are making a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. Fate can't manipulate brain chemistry because that's the purview of Fate, period no questions. It can manipulate brain chemistry specifically to create small but meaningful injuries and debilities because it IS within Fate's purview to manipulate complex systems with "anything that can go wrong will go wrong" potential. It is possible that you can form a blood clot that will put you into a coma or kill you. It is also possible that you could spontaneously develop supernatural abilities when touched by a Witch. It is also possible that by pissing off a Witch, you might be driven insane, not due to brain chemistry, but due to the whim of Fate as a metaphysical force. It is not, however, within the purview of Fate to grant free boosts to Attributes or Skills directly.
"Blessings" and "Hexes" are also spelled out. "Raising Attribute or Skill dots" is not one of the things they are capable of doing.
>>47557588
>IS within Fate's purview to manipulate complex systems with "anything that can go wrong will go wrong" potential.
That is not part of Fate's purview. Fate's purview is "blessings, hexes, probability, fortune, oaths, promises, intentions, destiny." Notice how "Blessings" are just as valid as "hexes," which is why Fate 2's Exceptional Luck can spontaneously turn someone Informed, Inspired, or Steadfast just as easily as it can make someone Insane.
>It is also possible that you could spontaneously develop supernatural abilities when touched by a Witch.
I do not recall this being a standard event that could happen "by chance." If it is, then there is no reason why "gaining supernatural strength or intelligence" could not occur either.
>by pissing off a Witch, you might be driven insane, not due to brain chemistry, but due to the whim of Fate as a metaphysical force
If "the whim of Fate as a metaphysical force" can operate under the purview element of "hexes" to accomplish such a thing, I fail to see why it could not similarly operate under the purview element of "blessings" to bestow supernatural strength or intelligence. That is assuming we do not just return to manipulating brain and body chemistry, which Fate 4's Chaos Mastery can do.
>"Blessings" and "Hexes" are also spelled out.
The first two tables in Fate's section concern boons and hexes. As I have elaborated on in >>47552635, Fate can grant blessings and hexes, but it can bless people in ways other than granting one of the listed boons (exactly what Forge Destiny does), and it can hex people in ways outside of the listed hexes (Chaos Mastery goes well outside of the realm of the listed hexes).
https://www.gencon.com/event_finder/Host/Onyx%20Path%20Publishing?ag[]=un&ag[]=eo&ag[]=tn&ag[]=ma&ag[]=tw&exp[]=no&exp[]=so&exp[]=ep&opt[]=ta&opt[]=hh
That's a lot more Geist being run at GenCon than I expected.
>>47557670
Since beast takes "Worst wod splat" reward geist dont fear to show up anymore.
>>47557657
Okay, since you're leaving soon, here's the bottom line:
Only Life and Mind can give you attribute dots. NO OTHER ARCANUM can give you a direct boost to your attributes. PERIOD.
The other Arcana can boost your dice pools, but they cannot straight-up add to your attributes. It's just not within their purview to do so.
Now fuck off.
>>47557697
And I now refer you to page 126 of Mage 2e.
>Increasing a Skill or Merit is typically a Ruling (••) spell. Attributes can be increased by a Perfecting (•••) spell.
"Blessings" and "hexes" are the first two purview elements of Fate listed, and the example Fate spells support the direct manipulation of brain and body chemistry towards positive or negative ends.
>>47557657
>That is not part of Fate's purview.
That is literally the manipulation of probability.
It is not within Fate's purview to grant dots in Attributes or Skills.
>The first two tables in Fate's section concern boons and hexes.
Even you should be able to understand a typo when you see one. You should have brought that up in the editing thread.
Whether or not it can bless or hex people in ways not spelled out, GRANTING ATTRIBUTE DOTS IS NOT ONE OF THOSE WAYS.
>>47557670
Those are fans running games, not official "Geist 2e is happening!" panels.
>>47557697
Not technically true. Spirit and Death can give Attribute dots to Ghosts and Spirits, and Matter can grant Durability. Mind can augment Goetia, and Prime could potentially affect Qashmal or Angels if your ST allows it. But nothing will boost your human Attribute or Skill dots aside from Life and Mind.
>>47557733
See above. You're not suggesting something within Fate's wheelhouse. Blessings do not grant Attribute dots. That is not something that Fate is capable of doing. Fate does not support the direct manipulation of brain and body chemistry except in one specific way that spells out WHY it is a Fate effect. You are refusing to acknowledge that and only focusing with laser precision on what you want to focus on.
>>47557733
Fate's purview includes probability. It doesn't directly manipulate brain or body chemistry, it manipulates the probability of things happening that lead to the Conditions you can give with it.
If you want to make someone stronger, you use Life, to directly manipulate their muscles into being stronger. Fate can't do that.
>>47557744
>Not technically true. Spirit and Death can give Attribute dots to Ghosts and Spirits, and Matter can grant Durability. Mind can augment Goetia, and Prime could potentially affect Qashmal or Angels if your ST allows it. But nothing will boost your human Attribute or Skill dots aside from Life and Mind.
It is technically true, because "you" are not a Ghost, Spirit, Object, Goetia, Qashmal, or Angel. You're a human mage.
>>47557785
I assumed you meant the general "you". Also, tell that to Baphomet.
>>47557867
Are Ghost Mages still a thing in 2e, by the way?
>>47557785
>"you" are not a Object and/or one of the Goetia
We'll just have to see about that! A Mastigos Mind+Matter Legacy that uses Goetia bound within objects important to the Mage in question to form a suit of armor might be interesting.
>>47557973
Probably. I mean, a Goetia Mage is a signature character, so why not?
>>47557987
GOLEM MAGE
Actually, someone was talking about a self-forged Legacy a few days ago. Or at least that's how I interpreted it. Robot mages. Use Matter to replace parts of yourself.
Save me up from this thread ngihtmare
>>47558019
>Robot mages. Use Matter to replace parts of yourself.
So... He converted that Left-Hand Legacy of Guardians?
http://www.thesubnet.com/portal/cod/mtaw/LegacyAu.html
Heya, folks. Matt here (briefly). The Beast Ready-Made Characters are now in art direction, and the author of said characters, Hayley Margules, was kind enough to take some questions about her writing process over on the OPP forums. Here are the answers. Enjoy!
A: The real first thing that came to mind when I offered this job was, “how can I best incorporate a child character into this group without 2e rules for children and without the player who pulls the card thinking they’ve been cheated?” My answer to that was our changeling character, Annika White.
Our Anakim is Annika’s school principal. Our Namtaru is an opthalmologist. Our Eshmaki is an artist, and our Ugallu is a political tracker, a campaign staffer who follows opponents around, recording everything in case they say something problematic. Mitt Romney’s 47% comment? Recorded by a political tracker. The job felt perfect for a character built around scrutinizing others to claustrophobia. It came to mind from a story told to me by a college friend who worked as a tracker on a campaign in Texas. I won’t give any more details there.
>>47558244
A: Two of these characters are LGBTQIA, and in a relationship with each other. Some of them share an apartment, and all of them live in the same apartment building in a coastal, unspecified city. None of them is particularly religious, though our Namtaru, who is Tlingit, cares about her Alaskan Native heritage and returns for important ceremonies. I do not cover other Beasts in town — five felt like a lot to me. The primary antagonists I cover in Story Hooks or in background are fae, heroes, mages, and vampires.
>LGBTQIA
That letter salad just gets longer and longer every time.
http://theonyxpath.com/beastready-made-characters/
>>47558262
>That letter salad just gets longer and longer every time.
Is this the first time you've heard LGBTQIA? It's been that long for a few years, now.
>Lesbian, Gay, Bi, Trans, Queer, Intersex, Asexual/Agender
>>47558244
You might as well link the whole thing: http://theonyxpath.com/beastready-made-characters/
>The novice shitposter points out the identity politics
>The journeyman shitposter points out the non-question with the non-answer
>The master shitposter points out that the entire Brood of Beasts were almost all children
Well anyways, here's hoping it's not too terrible.
>>47558287
What's the difference between gay and queer? And why gay and lesbian when a lesbian is just a gay woman?
>>47558305
>>47558287
>>47558262
Novices, the lot of you.
>>47558305
This word is literally abomination at its core.
>>47558305
Queer generally refers to Genderqueer, which is the term for non-binary genders.
If I had that big ass picture with all the symbols and labels, I'd attach it to this post, because the movement that's meant to make fun of is what the Q refers to
>>47558338
Yeah, that picture if taking seriously can even drive prime mage Mad.
>>47558338
That picture is funny because there's what? More than 30 denominations? And people wnat YOU to remmember all of them even if they can't remmember it at all.
Too bad it's in my old and dead computer. I would post it now.
>>47558219
I feel like that Legacy tries to juggle too many things. On the one hand they want to be Cybermen. On the other they're quirky tattoo artist bodymodder transhumanists. These are dramatically different things.
>>47558244
>“how can I best incorporate a child character into this group without 2e rules for children and without the player who pulls the card thinking they’ve been cheated?”
That's literally cheating, though. That's doing the old D&D thing of "my character is 13 but uses the rules for a normal PC".Also is Drak there a chick or just a hot vampire? Like, they got a Transsexual Transylvania vibe going on
>>47558262
>>47558359
Oh grow up.
>>47558287
>>47558305
"Queer" is an umbrella term and generic. Lesbian because "gay" is masculine because we live in a male-as-default society. Frankly, while inclusiveness of all the "not heteronormative" people is important, I feel like dropping the QUILTBAG is the way to go, since there's honestly no reasonable way to do it. GSM or "Gender and sexual minority" is better, but "Queer" as the default is honestly for the best, since it's inclusive, generic, and has implications but doesn't actually give anything away. It's still a slur for many people, though, which is why it's not considered the default.
>>47558338
Queer is actually more than just a gender thing. It was originally a pejorative and euphemism for being gay, after all. But now it tends to mean "all that shit people call gay that isn't necessarily two dudes buttfucking".
>>47558382
You misunderstand things. No one expects you to memorize that list. No one expects you to know their pronouns out of nowhere. They just ask that you not insult or harass them. Also, most of them are the equivalent of telling someone your town or street address when asked where you're from. People identify as something complicated and accurate on their blog. They just say they're queer or trans if you ask them.
>>47558386
It's a man, man: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drak_Pack
>The series centers around three young men: Drak (called Drak Jr. in the opening segment, but almost never in the series; voiced by Jerry Dexter), Frankie and Howler (both voiced by William Callaway), descendants of Dracula, the Frankenstein monster, and a werewolf. To atone for their ancestors' wrongdoings, the three, united as the Drak Pack, became superheroes.
>They appear initially as normal humans, but whenever trouble arises, they strike their right hands together and shout, "Whack 'em!" (This is called the Drak Whack.) They then transform into a vampire, a Frankenstein monster and a werewolf, respectively. Drak's powers include flight, telekinesis, changing shape and walking on walls. Unlike most cartoon vampires, Drak may assume a variety of forms, although he favors a bat. Frankie has superhuman strength and can release electrical charges. Howler has an ultrasonic howl and super-breath. In human form, they call each other by the same names.
>Their principal mode of transport is an amphibious flying car which they called "The Drakster".
What do you think the reaction would be if the answer to this
>Are any of them LGBTQIA?
Was no?
>>47558019
>GOLEM MAGE
That's what I'm talking about! That should be their final attainment, go from a Mage wearing a set of Bound Goetia armor, to a Golem-like entity fueled by said bound Goetia and controlled by the soul of the Mage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQVmkDUkZT4
>>47558382
>>47558430
Having had a large handful of friends that covered the whole QUILTBAG spectrum, I find that most often they don't give a shit if you remember the name for what they are, as long as you don't intentionally call them the wrong thing or act like it's a huge hassle to remember the honestly minor things they want you to remember
>>47558444
80s as hell
>>47558456
My reaction would just be "Eh"
I imagine some people would be upset, and a small handful of extremists would send death threats
But most people wouldn't really give a shit.Just like the reaction to them being LGBTQIA is going to be a vast majority not giving a shit, a bunch of people on /tg/ getting rectally ravaged about it, and a small handful of fucks posting death threats)
>>47549907
My Channeling seduced the Autumn Queen, she was described as a statue made of carved wood covered with bugs that buzz their wings to speak for her. I played music for her and touched boob
>>47558493
I wanna see a Legacy that takes this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfYbgdo8e-8
And runs with it
Granted, there's already a spell that basically lets you do that, but my point is I wanna see a Legacy of Mastigos focused around fully utilizing both halves of their split brain.
>>47558444
Holy shit I feel dumber from reading that. Did Hanna Barbera even try to sell toys?
>>47558534
Not a single one, but there is a DVD box set.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYG9FgWvsqw
Went to look up the opening, and I honestly don't know what I expected.
>>47558534
Like you could be a member of the pack, square
>>47558532
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfYbgdo8e-8
Well that was a thing,and it is certainly a thing I would like to see a Mastigos Legacy do, So, what Arcanum combination would you need to let your Right brain "speak"?
>>47558386
>>47558456
>>47558513
...who actually cares about this crap?
If I use reach to cast something using sensory range rather than touch, do I still need to use the Aimed Spell rule? (Mage 2ed)
Dear poster who's really excited about V20 Ghouls and Revenants,
It's out on DTRPG: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/184039?affiliate_id=13&src=TheOnyxPath
Yours,
Some Shitposter
>>47559148
And to think we could instead have something good like Requiem Ghouls
>>47559166
Half-Damned should be out in 2020.
>>47559113
No, that's the big advantage. Aimed Spells are 'Touch' range, you're just throwing them.
Perception-range spells automatically hit, no roll.
>>47559148
download link when?
>>47559166
>t. guy who can't stop whining because another version of the game exists.
How many hours a night is a vampire supposed to be active?
>>47559761
oWoD?
Basically all of them.
Is M20 all I need to run mage? All I need to know is in there?
>>47559814
If you want to run oMage, yeah, it's pretty much got everything important.
>>47559771
So that's only eight hours at most, right? Less if you want absolutely no sunlight.
>>47559844
It'll be 12 on average, just based on how the rotation of the earth works.
>>47559844
Depends upon the time of year. Eight-ish during the summer and longer than twelve in the winter.
The swing will also more dramatic the closer to the poles that you get.
>mfw it was pitch black at 3pm on the Winter Solstice in the Puget Sound area.
>>47553019
I don't think you understand touhoufag, he doesn't look for rules to break in play. He looks for rules to break because they're signs of poor design to him.
>>47553499
I remember when Aspel was just Edward, the worst faggot in history. Then he was Drawde. Now he's too scared to even wear his trip.
>>47560331
Who was the other one, the big gay guy who always rp'd a wolf?
something in shadow or shadow something
>>47560371
This guy
>>47548862
Why? So they can keep making cringeworthy games like Beast?
>>47560471
Pure pottery.
>>47560477
Yes. If nothing else, it gave us The Worst Cab Driver.
>>47560471
nah he was much more of a softy
>>47560471
niceguyironmaster.jpg
>>47560506
Also it eliminated Vancouver from ever being used for any other line. So that's a plus. Fuck the Canucks.
>>47560546
Isn't the only other Canadian city in CofD 2e so far just the city where you can't do Vampire things or else you get Lady of Pain'd?
>>47560576
What is CofD's problem with Canada that it tries so hard to make playing there as unappealing as possible?
>>47560604
Canada is cold Murrica
Who the hell would want to play in Cold Murrica when there's Russia to play in?
>>47560576
Montreal, yeah. Though we have six more games to go and Werewolf is getting more hunting grounds.
>>47560604
Montreal is actually very good for vampires. Built-in mystery, reason to be in coteries.
>>47560652
>vampire
>mystery
Sure you haven't gotten your gamelines confused?
I miss skeloric
>>47560637
Yeah, I'm expecting at least two or three more Canadian cities by the time all the games get a 2e update.
...Just in time for Requiem to get a 3e and we start this whole song and dance all over again.
>>47560673
Yes. Dark mystery is a theme through all the Chronicles of Darkness. Looking into mysteries is not something only mages do.
>>47560677
>Yeah, I'm expecting at least two or three more Canadian cities by the time all the games get a 2e update.
I'd really doubt that. One at the most. It's Canada, nothing interesting happens there.
>>47560710
Beasts don't go looking into mysteries. They just kill normies.
>>47560576
Changeling has Toronto. And you can do vampire things, just no more than five of you at a time.
>>47560652
Coteries are more or less banned. You can be in them, but you can't all meet at the same time.
>>47560740
Beasts go looking into mysteries to befriend them. Like Hatsune Miku coming to life, or Midnight Meat Train.
>>47560752
>Coteries are more or less banned. You can be in them, but you can't all meet at the same time.
>don't gather five or more at a time
>perfect for a party of 4
>>47553499
>>47553525
>>47553462
>>47553546
Alright, I normally browse /k/ and I'm new to the general. I'm the guy who's STing the oWoD shovel head game.
Who the fuck is this Aspel person and why am I being accused of being them?
>>47560752
>pic
That is so stupid. Why would any kindred stay there?
>Like Hatsune Miku coming to life, or Midnight Meat Train.
Is that some weeb shit?
>>47560795
Step 1: find the nameless
Step 2: commit diablerie
Step 3: rule entire city with his weird discipline
>>47560794
Aspel is the general's resident autist. He shits up every thread and specifically doesn't wear a trip because he doesn't want to be filtered, that's why people can be accused of being him since he tries to hijack conversations and takes positions for people they never intended so he can argue them forever and just be a total shit.
>>47560794
WoD/CofD General regular. It's just our local shitposting, pay it no mind.
>>47560813
Aren't they insanely powerful and just a complete 'psshh..nothing personnel, kid' type of character?
>>47560795
Hatsune Miku is, Midnight Meat Train's an adaptation of a Clive Barker story.
>>47560795
Rule III implies that trying to leave is risking death.
>>47560794
Someone people accuse of shitposting when they don't agree.
>>47560795
>Rule III from a horrible unseen monster is literally "I will fucking murder you if you leave the city"
>"Why would anyone stay there lol"
>>47560856
Clearly the writer understood how stupid the idea was so they implanted a clause to force the PCs to remain in the shitty situation or risk the 'rocks fall, vampire dies' bad end.
>>47560856
>>47560854
If a vampire drives through the city without ever hearing about the nameless or its rules do they get killed? What if they fly over it? Does this only count the city limits or does it extend to the entire island?
It sounds like this thing is either really busy or it's just a half-baked idea.
>>47552940
Basically what it boils down to is, you can't do it because it'd be overpowered. It's 100% a balance issue.
If you could alter the chemicals in someone's body to produce ill effects, you could probably also produce positive effects. Logically, that makes sense, but logically the idea of of using the powers of fate and chance to give someone the ability to control fire is batshit fucking retarded.
Mage just isn't a logical game.
>>47560945
If you fly over a city, do you tell people you've been there?
>>47560893
Montreal is one of the more interesting cities. You're not supposed to WANT to be in it.
>>47560945
Why don't you quibble with the horrible shadowy monster.
>>47560837
the nameless has never been given a statblock.
>>47560990
Sometime yes, but that's because I'm from the rural South and people automatically think better of you if they think you're well traveled.
>>47560947
It's not even a balance issue. It's making the assumption that because this one power mentions manipulating chemicals, that means Fate can totally do Life related things. It can manipulate chemicals because it manipulates probability. It's not about directly creating a blood clot, it's about causing a clot that might have caused an embolism to do so. When Chaos Mastery deals damage to someone or causes a Condition, or denies Cover, it's not that suddenly you take damage or your Cover goes away or your leg instantly breaks. Yes, it happens "within the course of three seconds" mechanically, but narratively your would-be attacker steps wrong and breaks their leg, or gets an aneurysm, or has a frozen stream of piss fall from a plane, or you shoot wildly and your shot ricochets off a wall or knocks over a potted plant that hits them.
Also giving someone the ability to be a psychokinetic makes a lot more sense when you realize that you are granting them a mystical magical destiny and bestowing upon them the ability to carry it out. It's not about specifically making someone into a fire manipulating superhero.
>>47555412
And? Sometimes Murder is a solution.
When you are a Forces mage, Murder is always supposed to be a solution. It's a pity right now that it kinda isn't. It's kinda shithouse at Doing Damgae.
Any of you fellas got the new Ghoul & Revenant book for Vampire the Masquerade?
I could use Forces to literally puppet someone's body, right? Deal with how well they physically resist it rather than how much willpower/morals come into it?
>>47561259
you'd probably need to throw a dot of life in there but yes you could use the bio-electricity in someone to manipulate/control their body.
>>47561314
I think he means with telekinesis. I don't know if they had that fine of motor control, but I think in 1e it was a thing. A Reach or two on Telekinesis would definitely allow some more intricate puppetry. Treat it as a grapple.
