I'm getting 3 of the Wrastler/Blindwalker boxes
In Mk2 I was going to build one wrastler and two Blindwalkers.
In Mk3, do you think I should instead do double wrastler and one blindwalker?

who has thoughts on the new Legion lock, Kryssa?

trying to figure out what she's good at/wants. spray would be better if she were higher fury but i kinda want to take Croaks and a carnivean for a ton of boosted fire sprays. she also seems to want melee for the feat - swordsmen, 1 angel, shredders...

>>47542206
To summ up my thoughts from the last thread.
PP has no idea what the fuck they are doing with the game and the balance may be worse than MKII.
Instead of going with competative play stats they went with who the fuck knows what.

>>47542265
I think you should magnetize.

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>>47542313
Magnetizing is probably the 'best' option, but I like to pose the minis and such. Also I don't know how well that kit would be to magnetize since it's the entirety of the back that changes, or something like that. (still haven't gotten the kits yet).

>>47542306
I'm going to run her as a replacement for pthags with a blight Bringer, probably throwing in warspears and swordsmen, then I'll just go for attrition wins on feat turn.

Anyone have trollblood/cygnar spoilers?

>>47542388
that's an interesting thought. i still like thags/BB because you can get both +ARM and (virtually) army-wide concealment simultaneously for the approach. but the changes are making me consider the BB with locks id never think of before (like vayl1)

>>47542397
yes

>>47542484
May I have a link to them please

Question for the WMH thread:
Is Quirk from MWG a good WMH player? Or shit like a lot of his 40k/30k work. Don't know any players to ask IRL.

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>>47542306
I saw her spell list and was unimpressed- her upkeeps don't seem to do as much as other casters, and offensive nuke spells on low-fury casters are rarely useful for more than taking out one or two guys if you have extra fury.

She has an unimpressive/weak spell list but a solid feat. Her low defensive stats are kinda worrying also. Def 14 with no tenacity is very bleh. at least there's a nephilim protector to guard her ass.

That said- she does have some tricks-

I think she wants a unit like legionnaires so she can give them that extra 3" move to make a super fast jamming unit.

Ashen veil could go on a high defense unit or a unit with prowl- hexblades or swordsmen come to mind. Def- 16 infantry are definitely resistant to most forms of shooting.

>>47542599
he's actually pretty good, he's placed well in tournaments before. He often dumbs himself down for people who come in, due to them being scrub tier.

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I am looking at Kozlov's rules right now and I don't really know what to make of him. He seems very middle of the road. Decent weapon, decent stats, decent focus, decent spell selection, decent feat. Nothing about the guy really seems to stand out.

>>47542601
she's no Helynna, or Kozlov, or Tanith, or even Maddox/Agathea, that's for sure

no point crying over spilt tenacity tho, but i was surprised to not see *some* higher stats to account for it.

>>47542681
OK then. I just watch him consistently fuck up at 40k/30k, to the level of God Damn DAVE, and wonder wtf. When he first started I was excited because I thought a WMH player would be all over this shit (40k is a lot less tactics, etc or so other seems to me) but he really fell off fast.

>>47542599
He's a decent player but I think the channel makes him come off as sort of bad because he always runs sub-tier lists for the channel. A lot of their content is more about showing off nicely painted terrain/miniatures than it is showing off good gameplay.

>>47542700
One could say that about a lot of the BB casters. Except Helynna, christ. Kozlov Khadors Harder though. Side step is pretty good. so is even moar arm for IFP/MOW and base 20 jacks. Tac Sup is great on IFP/MOW or something like a reach jack to jam in more.

>>47542730
Definitely in the bottom few for battlebox casters- maybe even THE bottom. The way I see it- the Nephilim Protectyor is the new shredder- you take it just for shield guard and guard dog. Your caster will be weaker VS ranged attacks but +2 def, no back strikes, and parry are solid. Kinda sucks that we went from paying 2 points minimum for caster defensive buffs to 10 (5) points. though it's not too much worse than 2 shredders so it's not the end of the world.

It's definitely odd though that we're seeing a battlebox caster who prefers infantry- what is this, trollbloods' MK II battlebox with Madrak?

>>47542797
the skorne one is the worst. agathea is pretty bad, her feat is pure delivery, but she has the saving grace of handing out ghost walk, Hellwrought, and parasite. kryssa...really i get back to the FURY 6 at the end of the day. you have to build for the feat, which i dislike, and around tactical supremacy, which is likely multiple things will want. spell martyrs for the spray spell aren't bad but that's more for opportunity, not as a main tactic

>>47542312
I agree a lot with this. Mk2 was relatively balanced, they only needed to do the double point thing (and balance models' point costs accordingly), the increased warjack point thing, and potentially add more jack support and the game would've been fine. I don't know what the fuck they were thinking with half these changes.

>>47542922
i actually agree with a lot of the changes, but for every three times they crow "design space!!!!!!' maybe once is it actually meaningful. like changing battle was valid and understandable. what they did to Gaspy2 or demo corps or legionnaires, i have no fucking clue what "roles" those are supposed to play.

>>47542922
The actual balance could have been there so easily. I'm a Cryx player so I can speak mostly from the perspective.
Shit units got worse.
Mediocre units got worse.
Some of the good units became mediocre or shit.
Jacks are a bit better, but few problems are fixed. There is still a clear choice of what to pick with even the situational choices like the reaper being the same cost as Seether or Inflictor, which are better in 90% of situations.
Buffs to Venny are insane, with counter charging Inflictors with boosted attacks against Hordes... You get a caster which will make any beast heavy list cry, 4-5 Inflictors with the guy are something you can easily see. 13 points for a jack with Reach and 19 armour and a crit weapon master vs living, he's insane.
While on the other side of the spectrum we have eDenny and eLich.
eLich is easily the worst caster in Cryx who does almost nothing for the army, if you roll badly has a pathetic feat and everything he used to do too good now cannot do at all, leaving you with a completely useless caster who has Parasyte, a generic spell.
eDenny has no feat. They could have made it a simple -3 def feat which would have been solid. Instead you get a feat which does almost nothing.

>>47542907
I actually think Agathia is a decent if somewhat boring caster. Her spell list is solid and so is her feat- she just adds nothing new to the faction- she is merely like a powered down deneghra 1.

Fury 6 really handicaps Kryssa though she will likely have fewer beasts than other legion casters. Tac supremacy at least gets you a jamming unit that moves 8" per turn out of the legionnaires. I do fear that she will be a one trick pony without even a really great gimmick.

>>47543152
Agathia is the caster you have no reason to bring because she only gives Parasyte and Stealth feat.
I don't understand why they gave that kind of a feat instead of something which won't be wasted on half the units.

>>47543085
Yeah I get how Denny2 directly resulted in the errata to Shadow Bind (no dev should need a "does X caster break this scenario" widget but Denny2 had one for years). That needs to be toned back but they used hammers instead of scalpels with this stuff, generally.

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>>47542922

Sweet sweet Cryx tears

>>47543221
I don't play Cryx. I play Mercs and Minions.
There's some stupid shit going on in this new edition.
Are you excited for the 300 HP khador lists? I'm certainly not.

Circle Insider is up http://privateerpress.com/community/privateer-insider/insider-05-31-2016

So can we now dispense with the "the leaks aren't final" and commence with the tears of the various tryhards desperately wishing that they aren't?

>>47543309
Yay? Tells us exactly nothing we didn't know. Every spoiler is identical to the leaked cards. Soles is still a terribad writer.

>>47543317
not til June 12 apparently

khador insider made it clear that the leaks were 95% final if not more and that shit's still been going on since then

>>47542700
That's kinda the point of BB casters. Good all round middle of the road guys that supports most of the faction's playstyles.

>>47543368
the issue is more - how many of them can stand on their own merits once newbs are not playing BB games. some certainly can. others don't seem like they'll be able to as easy (Kozlov is the former, really)

>>47543350
More beautiful, beautiful tears.

I'm 100% sure that given PP's stance on the leaks and unwillingness to admit they're real, if they *weren't*, one of the Insiders since then would have showcased a card that was different from the leaks.

But they can't, because the leaks are what's going to be in the card decks. War Room will have errataed cards when it's updated on the 11th, though.

>>47543385
Keep in mind BB casters included both pDenny and pKaya. There's no guarantee which end of the power spectrum they'll be on.

>>47543254


Seeing as how eMags can run Jack spam at higher ARM and with more speed than Khador, yes you should look forward to it.

>>47543401
what crying? there was one difference between an insider and a cards (Ravagore POW) but I think that was more Schick being totally unaware of the values on the card, than the card being wrong. and i say 95% to hedge my bets. i won't be surprised if it was 100%. high-end players were leaking accurate shit for weeks before the actual card leak to boot.

>>47543221
cryx tears are a nice break after the years of endless "Cygnar, mweh!"

>>47543453
Not so much in this thread, but I've run into many people holding out hope that they aren't final after some favorite tchotchke got nerfed.

I'm betting 100% just because PP hasn't shown us any differences, which would be the obvious thing to do to keep up the mystique.

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>>47543188
I think it'd be a disservice to omit the fact that she has ghost walk- one of the few spells that was actually BUFFED in Cryx with the MK 3 changes. It's too early to tell for certain right now, but if the amount of terrain is increasing then that spell will be worth it's weight in gold. An armor buff is now actually relevant since we have the inflictor- though I suppose the crabjacks might be equally receptive to becoming ARM 20.

Also, while I dislike nuke spells- hellfire is not something I'd immediately discount. In a faction with easy access to cheap and fast arc nodes, a fully boostable pow 14 that you cannot shield guard is sometimes exactly what you need to scalpel out annoying solos.

I actually like her feat a LOT because it gives free ghostly to everyone which allows easy access to rear arcs, and it gives everyone stealth- which Bane Warriors desperately need. They get one turn to run up the board and not worry about ranged attacks. The Vanish part of her feat synergizes well with Scavenger Bonejacks- they can rush in, eat something, and then place themselves 10" away with a combination of the feat and sprint.

I don't think Agathia is bad, she just takes a lot of generic Cryx stuff and synthesizes it into one caster. She is a better battlebox caster than Deneghra 1 in that she is significantly less likely to provide absurdly negative play experiences.

Not to say that she's an all-star caster- she's a pale shadow of good MK II casters, but I'm looking to give her a spin before pass judgment.

>>47543332


It's great too because he mentions all the slight nerfs and changes without mentioning a single one of the fairly big buffs that a lot of models received in Circle.

Kruger2 has rebuke? Nah

Changed Woldwrath from spell Ward to holy Ward and buff it's gun? Nah just mention it has hyper regen

>>47543473


Yeah consistently placing in the top 5 at all major events was just awful for swan players

>>47543541
lol, yeah -- I ordered a Woldwrath after getting my hands on the leaks. Soles points out... the one benefit I never even noticed on the cards, it's so insignificant compared to his new gun, Sacred Ward, and Earth Shaker changes.

>>47543590
it's even sadder that this never stopped their bitching then

>>47543368
I suppose Helynna could always be an outlier, but she really doesn't match that description.

>>47543519
how was it buffed? 1 cost less and friendly faction only is strictly worse considering 99% of the time the caster didn't actually pay to cast it.

it's true that she's a better BB option from deneghra, because someone was a real sadist to put her and 3 arc nodes in a battle box.

>>47543636
Helynna more creates new play styles for Ret than she does enable existing ones. Then again there's not a strong common thread among Ret casters (where, say, Cryx's strong thread is debuffs) aside from being combined-arms, which most casters are now anyway

>>47543519
She isn't bad, it's just the "why would I take this caster" question you always need to keep in mind when designing casters.
The answer is Stealth feat, since Hellfire/Parasyte/Ghost Walk spells are the generic Cryx spells.

>>47543593
Also, holy shit is the Woldwrath going to be fun with eKromac. Also fun with pMorv, but not as good as eKromie.

haha, I love how pp tries to the bitter end to justify the stuff they do.

Confirmed for 8 boxed Skinwalkers, all orboros are of course onboard with this idea as it is obvious they are halfway to warbeasts. While the rest of the community sits in question if it hadn't been better to then make them a warbeast unit perhaps?
The other great part is when someone mention that these fur-clad hillbillies has the same arm value as someone wielding a Volkswagen beetle as shoulder pads, not to mention the rest of the armor, you get a "well... I'm a registered scientist and am currently working on a theory that fur is indeed as strong as steel!".
I don't play trolls, skorne or protectorate, but I can seriously see the frustration from the rest of the community. After this blunder I wouldn't even be surprised if they are cheaper than said units by default as well.

>>47542907
>Skorne one is the worst

What? The Skorne caster is likely the best, just tied to trap shit

Amazing spell list, and the best defensive feat in the game.

>>47543660
It's not a bad feat to pop on approach, or for repositioning. Just a shame it's redundant with banes, but would be great for say Satyxis, Blackbanes (if tangled with stuff with magical weapons) and jacks like the stalker.

>>47543709
A great spell list on a fury 6 without an arc node and with some of the shittiest defensive stats in the game.

Any Legion players theory crafting some new lists based off of whats been released?

>>47543085
>>47542312
Just because Cryx is no longer the best faction in the game doesn't mean PP has no idea what they're doing balance wise.

And no, they didn't need to just leave things alone and tweak some point costs.

The general trend of lowering army sizes and the downturn of super powerful, super fast, super accurate damage is overall good for the game.

Your problem is that you wanted Mk3 to simply be Mk2 again, and now that it's not, you've decided it's shit. Yea, there's been some questionable decisions, but Cryx hasn't really seen the worst of it anyways.

>>47543707
>8 boxed Skinwalkers
bullshit
PP is completely incompetent when it comes to balancing circle to the rest of the factions
what happened to man o wars being the only guys with 8 boxes

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I want one.

>>47543747
hellmouths. hellmouths everywhere.

(i got some other stuff but seriously. hellmouths.)

>>47543749
the Cryx changes don't show that PP doesn't know what they're doing.

the Cygnar changes definitively prove that they don't, though.

>>47543707


They're +1 ARM to stormblades and the same ARM as naked feral warp wolves. They're also wearing full plate. It's not exactly ridiculous that it would take some guy in power armor to match that.

>but muh cetrati

Top kek

>>47543744

Didn't you notice how ALL the Warcasters defensive stats in ALL the starters where generally better than ALL the Warlocks in the starters?
How did you miss this?
The thing is, nerfing the Warcasters way of shielding themselves with hogging FOCUS made them realize that all Warcasters need better defensive stats, they also stated this in the original insider.
I think this is but a taste on how the game will look. Warlocks have the ability to transfer all damage to a beast, and it is by privateer standard a far greater skill than removing 5 damage once per blow struck.
Thus, Warlocks will most certainly have less def stats overall, as the starter boxes suggests.

I know its just a theory, but Ill stick with it until I'm proven wrong.

>>47543753
it's fair for coc heavy infantry to keep it, because robots. but skinwalkers? realllllly?

>>47543753
>tanky heavy infantry loses second attack for gang, pathfinder for relentless assault, relentless advance for dick
>keeps 8 boxes
>this is somehow bullshit

Um... sure.

>>47543753
They said from the start that MoWs were one of the few units to keep 8 boxes, not the only.

People have been curious as to which ones kept it since.

>>47543744
Marketh is his arc node.

And Skorne's got plenty to fix his stats, never mind his feat.

>>47543804
I think terrain is where we're going to see Cyngar nerfs.

Like, if they can't get LoS on your army with their shooting shit easy, then shit like Sloan and Caine aren't going to be nearly as powerful as they seem.

>>47543753
>what happened to man o wars being the only guys with 8 boxes

there was a "*some conditions may apply" rider on that and they even pointed that out

>>47543824
Skinwalkers are man-sized warpwolves, is probably the justification.

The concept of them is more like a warbeast unit than heavy infantry. PP is designing more on fluff than on game balance. That's why cataphracts lost a point of def for having heavy looking armor, despite having less armor than many higher arm infantry.

Im thinking, anybody have an idea of how to mass run Warjacks with Kharchev?

Im just thinking about the maths involved and matchups against beasts.

Contrary to popular opinion, except for a few rare exceptions (The Satyrs and Flying Legion Beasts), most heavy beasts have 30 HP. With Defense and Armor comparable to that of a Jack (Average 12/18). A point less, a point more, or different arrangement (14/16 instead of 12/18), you effectively have to one shot them to get them out of the commission, and Im just thinking of how to do enough damage to one-shot them, outside of just feat turn.

Beasts can still Oneshot warjacks in return, or at least mainly cripple them. Im just thinking Maths wise how to kill a beast with still limited focus. A Jugger can one shot a 18 Armor 30 HP beast with about 3 focus (using 1 up on the charge) but just barely.

Against infantry I can do some tricks, but Im just thinking about the ways to just flat out kill beasts if the situation calls for it.

>>47543824
And Skinwalkers are half way to Warpwolves, fluff wise. They're basically baby warbeasts.

>>47543878
*than many higher def infantry

>>47543878
What about troll infantry being man sized dire trolls?

>>47543881


Adding to this, the process to make warp wolves and skinwalkers is similar, it's just a matter of degrees. Skinwalkers are still fairly normal while human while warp wolves are typically gibbering insane people even while human

>>47543368

Xekaar from skorne stands out, his playstyle is very abnormal for skorne. Debuffing things is something only fatty really did and even then his debuff game wasnt that great until MK3 buffs

>>47543753

I get it, when the CoC drooped the bomb on 8 boxed robots, there was a lot of whining. But the excuse being "come on guys, the are ROBOTS!" Which was eventually bought, still grumpy but the crowd gave in.

Now these guys comes along, and Ill admit it, they would have fitted the bill for a warbeast unit instead, not only having 8 boxes but also insane arm.

Let me explain this to you >>47543808 since you seem to have a hard time reading and comprehending things. I don't play any of the above team, as mentioned, but don't you see it strange that privateer press makes it clear that "these guys are literally clad in full plate armor so heavy we HAD to drop their defense stat, it would be ridiculous otherwise!". Now, I give it to you, you seem to have a fair amount of arm, on selected parts, but having the typical armor cracks of your average old armor. On top of this, they don't even bother wielding that chainmail all the way around, so both arms and legs are extremely less protective! Now granted, they wear armor for a better armor value, but they don't wear THAT armor value.

If privateer press wants to bring in model esthetics to the rules, they sure are selective when using this type of power don't you think?

>>47543903
They're not. Trollkin are absolutely different, if related, to full blood Trolls, much less Dire Trolls.

>>47543881

Yes, which is EXACTLY why they should have become a Warbeast unit!

>>47543930
There's more of an emphasis on debuffs in Skorne in general right now, to be fair.

Just a question of how good it is.

Some of Skorne's shit I think will turn out better once people start playing it.

Like, Mord's ability to increase the cost of every animus you cast is going to be a pretty huge fucker for Hordes armies now, especially with so many of them going SELF, but I think that's hard to really visualize on paper.

>>47543744

hes fury 6.5, he has maltreatment so he'll be on 7 fury every turn. Skorne also has a spell slave that can cast his two best spells (Mortality and Deadweight)

>>47543867
agreed on Cygnar. and sloan got better but all the dumb screaming over her is, well, dumb. go ahead and take 8 hunters, you'll lose on scenario, or they'll get engaged and shredded pretty quick.

>>47543747
My Lylyth2 list is, oddly enough, not much different from what it was like in Mk II, except without Zuriel and now has the obligatory Bolt Thrower. I'm very interested to see what Raptors with Gunfighter and a second attack can do. Archers might see a comeback with her given that they'll be able to shit out an absurd number of shots.
Abby2 is in the same boat, pretty close to my old list for her, and I figure her list will transition well into the new predicted Mk III meta. I'm tempted to do the same for Vayl1, but I feel like she needs a stronger infantry game now. Not just because of the change to Incite, but also because she might need more bodies on the table between her and the enemy.

Bethayne's probably going to be the sleeper hit of the faction, but I can't decide what combination of beasts and infantry will work best with her.

>>47543717
If they changed from Ghostly to Apparition, she would have been much more interesting. 3" on jacks and 2" on dudes and you've got yourself a fine caster used to diliver your dudes into the enemy.
>>47543749
>Just because Cryx is no longer the best faction in the game doesn't mean PP has no idea what they're doing balance wise.
Of course. But the internal balance getting worse with less viable units and some casters being nerfed into oblivion, reaching eMorhgul levels of trash. Also, the actual nerfs to already bad or mediocre/situational units.
>And no, they didn't need to just leave things alone and tweak some point costs.
Indeed, they needed to remove excarnate from eLich as well as the soul cloud and remove the movement penalty of eDenny and many other completely sane choices compared to utter nonsense of the balance they are doing right now.
>The general trend of lowering army sizes and the downturn of super powerful, super fast, super accurate damage is overall good for the game.
Army size went up, more jacks and Bane Knights being more spammable then ever. 17 points for these guys will mean the Zen spam lists will still be there, still outshining many choices which would have made the game more interesting.
That, and all the nerfs to cool units like McThralls, Bane Warriors, Bane Riders, Bloodgorgeors and even fucking Black mother fucking Ogrun. Who the fuck nerfs Black fucking Ogrun???????
>Yea, there's been some questionable decisions, but Cryx hasn't really seen the worst of it anyways.
As I have stated before, I cannot speak for other factions as not all are represented in the local meta and as I don't play them so my knowledge is not first hand playing.
And it isn't just some, it's a lot of them.
>>47543867
With all the terrain in the world, those two are still insane.

>>47543975
you'll get about 1 turn of that spell slaving before they kill him.

>>47543938


Skinwalkers do wear chainmail and have gauntlets though. Cetrati are just regular dudes in archaic armor. The +1 ARM and DEF can easily come from the fact that the creature inside the armor is tougher to damage, which is exactly how it works with trolls.

The extra boxes come from the fact that they're 10 feet tall insane animals that have to be euthenized if you want them to stop.

>>47543980
thats funny, L2 is about the only place i really like zuriel. gunfighter is what he needs to make his quick work better, and it's yet another free spray to boot.

archers with lyl2 = 3 RNG 12 POW 21 arcing fire CRAs on feat turn. that seems ok.

>>47543638

Ghost walk is not an upkeep spell so Skarlock Thralls can still cast it and now it costs 1 focus less. Cryx was a lot less dependent on mercenaries than most other factions, so I'd call that a buff.

>>47543660
Parasite, Hellfire, and Ghost Walk ARE pretty basic spells and they are the strongest ones she has to offer. Her +2 ARM spell seems like a solid addition to bolster some of our already tough jacks- though I doubt it'll do much of anything for the slayer chassis-jacks. Vanish definitely seems like a trap option. a 3" move isn't enough to put you out of reach of enemies without some additional movement shenanigans. I expect her feat to be incredibly useful on some of the more clogged boards though.

>>47543998

not every list is capable of killing him when hes sitting 8-10" from where the battle used to be, since he ususally wants to go early to throw down the debuff. especially against all of skorne's shield guards or if you just bring Orin as a double protector for Xekaar and marketh, good luck enemy spell slingers

>>47544003
Im sorry but we can debate fluff all day:

"Well the protectorate has armor powered by GOD, and therefore have 8 damage boxes"
"The Skorne people are immune to pain, so we represented that with 3 more damage boxes"
"Trolls are thick, and are Beast blooded by nature so deserve 8 boxes"
"COC heavy infantry, though robots are also very delicate clockwork systems so deserve 5 boxes"
"MOW armor though tough has been established as unstable, so therefore deserves 5 boxes only"

Its just how flippant PP is about awarding the boxes.

>>47543994
>Of course. But the internal balance getting worse with less viable units and some casters being nerfed into oblivion, reaching eMorhgul levels of trash.
Horseshit. even Gaspy2 isn't that fucking bad. The only major complaint is his feat, and it's not that fucking bad.

The die roll doesn't change your plan with the feat, it just changes how much attrition you get out of it.

>Indeed, they needed to remove excarnate from eLich as well as the soul cloud and remove the movement penalty of eDenny and many other completely sane choices compared to utter nonsense of the balance they are doing right now.

And what changes in Cryx have really been that insane?

>Army size went up
No it didn't, army size went down in points about 1-4 Mk2 points, even accounting for point cost reductions.

Even all jack armies are having fewer models in them then in Mk2. Only 1, really, but that's still a thing.

>17 points for these guys will mean the Zen spam lists will still be there, still outshining many choices which would have made the game more interesting.

And how are they more spammable? You lost most of the shit that made them worth spamming.

>>47544003

Well no matter the opinion, its not going to change. We will simply have to accept that while privateer will "remove" all 8 box meat mountains, and all dispel spells from the game, we will in the meantime have to be satisfied with over half the game teams getting just those things but with other names.
There will always be a reason behind it, I just find it silly. I would personally be happy with only Khador 8 boxes, and thats it. This to me is a sight of "what do we do with these guys?", the lazy road so to speak, from privateers part. Ether they couldn't agree, or they simply couldn't balance them enough with 5 boxes and still keeping them as the tanky unit, until someone in charge said "fuck it, let them keep the 8 boxes".

>>47543878
>That's why cataphracts lost a point of def for having heavy looking armor
And lost a point of armour for having heavy looking armour.

>>47543994
And the rest of it is just Cryx bitching. McThralls were stupid powerful, Bane Warriors were stupid powerful(and are still plenty good, they just don't deliver themselves anymore, which was stupid), Riders were stupid.

>With all the terrain in the world, those two are still insane.

All of Sloans insanity relies on having clear LoS to the opponents army. Most of Caine's insanity relies on having LoS to most of their army.

Mk3 terrain should prevent easy LoS to the opponents army.

>>47544037
cryx doesn't use a lot of mercs, but for the mercs it does use (i.e. boom howler tarpit or DSM in Denny1 gunline), that is a solid nerf since they cannot benefit from it. again 1 focus less doesn't really matter since the caster will virtually never cast it, they'll have a skarlock or WSC do it for free. it's somewhat of a benefit if you need to put it on multiple arc nodes or something, sure.

>>47544058
>"COC heavy infantry, though robots are also very delicate clockwork systems so deserve 5 boxes"
Bullshit, CoC clockwork is by any measure tougher than anything should realistically be.

Their shit is fucking insane.

>>47544037
>so Skarlock Thralls can still cast it and now it costs 1 focus less
Making the -1 cost not as good as it seems, since your Skarlock is in many cases only a Ghost Walk dispenser.
But on the other hand, a Skarlock is a shitty choice for most casters now, fighting with WSC who do the same thing with more dudes and free upkeeps.
Vanish is cheap and can help you get an assasination vector if necessary, it's also if I'm not mistaken within, not completely within. +2 armour says DeathJack/Nightmare, colossal is a waste with her for the most part.
She's just too generic. If I can get someone to split the two player box with me, I'll play her a bit. If not, I don't see a reason to actually buy her.

>>47544059
>Horseshit. even Gaspy2 isn't that fucking bad. The only major complaint is his feat, and it's not that fucking bad.

horseshit yourself.

1. Excarnate change - the model can't act in same activation, completely within, etc
2. Hellbound is no longer an upkeep and eats almost half the stack every turn to defend.
3. Caustic Mist is no longer an upkeep. bye cloud wall.
4. Teleport distance reduced 2"
5. Feat is unreliable - probably the worst thing to be unreliable about any caster
6. Less SPD

it's not that fucking hard to understand that some of these changes would be fine (let's say they did 1 bc its largely a general rule change, 3, 4, and 6) - that would be reasonable in combination but still leave some defensive tech that was signature to the playstyle. doing ALL of them is caving to whiny babies who screamed about cryx for 10 years.

>>47544058


Protectorate are still just dudes in big armor

Cataphractii are just big dudes in armor

Trollkin are just big dudes in general with varying degrees of armor that are much closer to their human counterparts than their full blood troll beasts.

Ogryn are just big dudes with varying degrees of facial hair. Props to bokur though.

Man o Wars are halfway to light warjacks with pilots

CoC medium are halfway to light warjacks and have souls

Skinwalkers are warp wolves who had the processed stop early to retain their sanity

Skorne tears are delicious, let the salt flats grow

>>47544096

As the man said, we can debate this all day....
The point being, its all up to the fanboy´s at privateer press hq to decide, with the trusty help from the marketing division of course.

>>47544154


Or that CoC can fire sawblades with the strength of a cannon shot using purely mechanical force and no gun powder. That requires absolutely ridiculous metallurgy

>>47544096
No my point was that Privateer press could justify whatever they wanted with fluff.

They say that in THAT specific case The gears are more vulnerable? They are so. In some other case they say the gears are less vulnerable? Works just as well.

And they shouldn't use fluff to justify mechanical changes. At least the way they do it here.

>>47544150
When I said Complaint, I meant "Actually can bitch about".

So, down the list

1.Deserved it
2.Deserved it
3.Deserved it
4.Deserved it
5.Only thing worth bitching about, also die feats not nearly as bad as people think
6.Deserved it

Gaspy was a caster with all the best defensive tech in the game combined with amazing attrition/assassination and a powerful alpha strike ability. Complaining that he lost that shit is stupid, because he absolutely deserved it.

Now he's a caster with decent defensive tech and decent attrition, which is where he should be.

>>47544152

Skorne was so bad before I just don't think they care anymore anon. If I played Skorne Id simply change team unless I had a brilliant painted army with emotional value.

Like Im Khador, so we get 8 damage boxes across the board, but I still find the way they allot who gets them or not stupid.

Saying "Something is halway to something" is stupid because everybody in this game is halfway to anything else.

>>47544185


They justified it by making skinwalkers the most pillow fisted of all medium infantry bar perhaps reciprocators. Unless you actually think the new skinwalkers are going to be meta defining, you are literally just bitching because of fluff

>>47544207
I left khador for skorne because skorne could do big stompy armies with heavy beasts and heavy infantry the way I imagined khador could do when they were first advertised

Now I'm going back to khador because they actually can do those lists now and skorne can't

>>47544067

there were rumors going around a month or two ago they wanted skinwalkers to be semi-warbeasts, 8 boxes contributes to that so I disagree it was done out of laziness rather than vision

>>47544181

We get it, you're a CoC fanboy.

>and shoot fire from his eyes, and bolts of lightning from his arse.

This is all I can hear when I read your posts.

>>47544185
The point of the change was that medium base units were infringing upon Warjacks and Warbeasts ability to hold zones. They were far too powerful attrition wise, and so needed the nerf.

Khador kept it's wounds because MoW are meant to fill warjack roles.

CoC keot theirs because their faction identity is "All our shit is hard as fuck to kill for good"

And Circle got theirs because their beasts aren't usually good enough at actually holding zones, so they needed something that could do it.

>>47544238
Most pillow fisted?

Check the back of the alpha's card. It says "gang". That means they're pow 14 mat 9, compared to pow 14 mat 9 shock troopers. Reach medium bases have 0 issues getting a gang bonus. Just don't ever field them without an alpha and you're set, 19 points for 5+UA is still good.

>>47544238
Even more than Recips, even.

Recips can still get up to POW14, picked up CMA, and have easier access to damage buffs than Skinwalkers do.

Skinwalkers are straight up the most pillowfisted medium base infantry now.

>>47544247


You're whining about fluff changes having no basis but CoC had that base covered.

Go cut yourself for strength skornetard

>>47544205
so you think a caster with too much defensive tech deserves to lose ALL of it? and that's reasonable?

i'm not saying he should have kept everything he had, you fucking moron, but losing all of it and gaining nothing meaningful in return was clearly heavy handed and reactionary.

change excarnate, reduce SPD, make hellbound a non upkeep, and keep cloud walls...not broken. or one cloud but hellhound is an upkeep...not broken. all of it gone...it's shit.

what other die feats are around? i bet they're also shit. because your special 1/game Thing should not come down to fucking chance in its actual strength. even if you use it poorly, it shouldn't suck just because you roll a 1 instead of a 6. that's fucking awful design.

>>47544275
*pow 14 mat 7 shocks

>>47544275
And check the Shocktroopers UA card, and realize that Shocktroopers get an extra POW14 from their UA, giving them double the attacks of Skinwalkers.

>>47544059
>even Gaspy2 isn't that fucking bad. The only major complaint is his feat, and it's not that fucking bad.
Only 1 cloud
Slower
No more excarnate trick
Teleport is completely within 6" and not within 8"
Hellbound is not an upkeep
Getting 4 small based or medium based grunts is pathetic.
And rolling a 1 does change your game because attrition is your plan. I don't know how you play your games, but knowing what you get is a pretty big thing.
>And what changes in Cryx have really been that insane?
Nerfing Mechanithralls into the ground, nerfing Bloodgorgeors, killing eLich, killing eDenny, making Venny insane against Hordes in a way Mortenebra never was.
Standard is 75 points + jack points which comes in total of 37.5+14 instead of 35+6. I count more in MKIII, correct me where I'm wrong.
>And how are they more spammable?
They are cheaper and still do more or less the same thing? You can get 2 more solos as opposed to what you used to. Which casters lost what made them worth spamming? Terminus didn't. Skarre took a reasonable hit, but taking a mass of them is as viable as ever.

>>47544305
At rat 5. Hope you're charging a def 10 crusader! Wait, those are immune to shooting because of choir. Hope you're charging a titan?

>>47544239
Khador is in a pretty cool place. I'm excited because I loved their aesthetic, but stepped away from them when I found out they couldn't run their awesome looking jacks except in ones and twos. Now that they can fling a wall of iron downfield, I'm all in.

>>47544248
So let them say so instead of just saying stupid nonsense.

Lots of salt would have been saved if they explained their changes with that Perspective instead of "LOLZ THEY BE ROBOTS!....Except for the non robots!"

Its not necessarily even a balance or salt thing. Just stupid of them to say.

But its overall related to PP never revealing the design Philosophy of most of what they do.

>making an order
>not sure whether to get a Swamp Horror or a Battle Boar
Do you guys think the Swamp Horror has real merit in Mk3 or is it still a mediocre piece? Especially now that Rage exists and you'd have to choose between extra inch of melee range or extra damage

>>47544296
He didn't lose all of it, he just had it nerfed.

And a lot of defensive tech bullshit got hit.

Look at Lucant, he lost a shitload of his defensive tech.

Other die feats: Vlad2, great feat.
New Sevvy2 feat is much better, it was bad in Mk2, but still did great things.

>>47544319
>>47544205

>>47544205
>I lost against him a lot so he deserves to be a garbage tier caster now
ok

>>47544339
And we arrive at one of the main problems: Soles couldn't communicate his desire for others to help him if he was on fucking fire.

A huge part of this shit show has been Soles not being able to actually talk about shit.

>>47544348
How is that "choosing"? Either you're already in range and so don't need extra range, or you're out of range so you need the range. If you didn't have the range to begin with, casting Rage would do exactly fucking nothing for you.

There's no situation with pre-measuring where you're like "Darn, wish I hadn't cast the wrong animus!"

>>47543788

Do we have stats for them?

>>47544275

because if it's one thing Khador doesn't have, it's damage buffs

>>47544323
Or Ice cage, or the Victor's flare, or Hand of Fate/S&P, or Sorcha1's feat, and I'm sure I'm missing some.

>>47544339


Or we can just accept that autists get really, really mad when "MoW are the cornerstone medium infantry who are one of the few who kept 8 boxes" turns out to not mean "MoW are the only ones who kept 8 boxes"

>>47544383

legion facebook group said the cards are out there but I haven't been able to find them

>>47544371
the insiders have basically been totally mismanaged. "hey let's build hype with a fuckton of info about how Your Favorite Models got hacked to bits." Even if it were necessary it's horrible PR.thank fuck for the card leaks.

>>47544376
Because sometimes you need the extra melee range to fit other bases in against the same model.
You're 99% right, but it isn't an absolute.
I suppose 'choice' wasn't a good way to put it.

The swamp horror has pretty shit defensive stats, 10/15 (one dice of damage removed from the attacker) is going to get slaughtered pretty easily against anything that can hit harder than a hand-cannon. It's also slow at speed 4, so I'm still really wary of it.

However I never used one in MK2, and I hear people actually used it quite commonly with a Wrastler (Another thing I never used in MK2), so I was wondering if the Swamp Horror had merit.

>>47544352
If you want to take that route, there's no point in having a discussion with you.

There are plenty of casters in the game regarded as being powerful defensively for having one piece of the shit Gaspy's kit let him do.

>>47544085
>McThralls were stupid powerful
And now they are dumb weak. We aren't arguing if a unit should have been nerfed, it's about if it does anything right now.
As it stands, and they saw play mostly with pSkarre because she used to fix everything they lacked.
With the nerf to her they are automatically a pretty balanced unit.
If you nerf their P+S they are nerfed bellow the "this is a good unit level".
With the loss of respawn+charge they won't get to combat all that much.
With the -1 def they die like flies.
So, they were also nerfed into obscurity.
Skarre made them insane, because P+S 20 boosted attack and crazy vectors were too good. With the significant nerf to damage output of her troops and the increased damage she will take and won't even necessarly heal they might have as well stayed the same, minus the new vectors.

>>47544430
A lot of the shit has not gone well. Their general smugness in regards to people's questions have been even worse, that whole "You don't have the whole picture" line is absolutely true, but don't fucking tell us that as an excuse.

>>47544440
>If you want to take that route, there's no point in having a discussion with you
That's literally what you said.
>There are plenty of casters in the game regarded as being powerful defensively for having one piece of the shit Gaspy's kit let him do.
Who is the crazy def master with that one amazing cloud and a 3 focus no charge?

>>47544412
You covered all of them but irusk1's feat and various knockdowns.

But the skinwalkers are faster and have pathfinder on the charge, and are more durable once they get stuck in. Unyielding puts them at arm 18, shocks are arm 17 when they charge.

>>47544389
Khador does have fury and battle lust on a few casters, and one or two feats to increase MoW damage. Oh, and the new silence of death. So that's true with buffs. Circle does have stoneskin at least. But their stuff is based more on movement synergy, which khador absolutely does not have for warriors outside of +2 with MoW kovnik.

>>47544460


To be fair everyone shit the bed with the new skorne caster until it turned out that he's actually pretty fucking good when people actually played him

>>47544448
WellI see them as fair units.

They cost 10. They are some of the cheapest infantry in the game for the scale (10 Units). They can be accurate (2 attacks=around Mat 7) or damaging (Pow 13). They have shit defensive stats but solid offensive ones.

They are pretty comparable to other units of their cost.

>>47544490
You also have pBuch feat which is the best lets deal dmg feat in faction and one of the better ones in game.

>>47544475
I'm talking about his Mk2 variant. The whole point of his Mk3 variant is he still has all the tools his Mk2 version did, just worse.

And again, there's a lot of shit we still don't know. The change to terrain might mean that Gaspy might not even need his cloud to stay safe anymore, for example.

>>47544493
I just want to know why they put so much trap shit on him.

Like, at a glance he looks like a fucking super solo warlock, and he's just so fucking terrible at it.

>>47544535
Yeah.

Dude's fantastic if you realize he's only there for feating and slinging out mortality and deadweight, and just cross witch mark out with a sharpie.

>>47544506
They cost the same as they used to.
Oh and also, necrosurgeon is worse as he can't heal up Skarre which is an indirect nerf to them too, and a significant one at that.
It just doesn't seem like a good unit any more, as it's either them or choice between 9 other ones.
I think this edition will push out all the non bane knight/satyxis units out of the play because those units are now good and balanced with other units being "balanced" way too much.

>>47544383
Hellmouth is a model consisting of a Maw and up to 3 Tentacle(s)

Maw: large base, 2” melee range, MAT 6, POW 15, CMD 8, 10/18 with 8 boxes
-deploy up to 12” beyond deployment zone at the same time as you place models with AD
-cannot be KD, moved, pushed, pulled, or placed, SPD 0
-opponents can never gain a back strike bonus, or take control of it
-Impervious Flesh (all attacks have -1 damage die)
-has Consume and Rear Attack
-Tendrils (if fewer than 3 tentacles are in play at the beginning of the activation, place one tentacle in play in formation, if Maw is destroyed/RPF, so are tentacles)

Tentacle: medium base, SPD 5, MAT 6, 12/15, POW 10, 2” melee
-Grip: when it hits a small, med, or large base, remove the tentacle from play and push the targeted model toward the Maw until it contacts a model, obstacle, or obstruction. if this push gets the model within the maw’s melee range, the maw can make a basic melee attack on it

6 pts, FA 2

>>47544535


I legit wish more locks and casters came with freebie "WITNESS ME" buttons

If you have to go out, at least he can go out in style

>>47544523
He has all the tools, but each is blunt. The propper way would have been to blunt some and leave at least one of these (full feat or 3 clouds or upkeep no charge) instead of 6 half assed ones.

>>47544587


It's going to be shit unless you can place the tentacles even further than deployment +12".

>>47544587
Tentacles also have Impervious Flesh, sorry

>>47544568
>They cost the same as they used to.

Yes, exactly. Thats why they where way too powerful before. You don't get a debuff and then the cost goes down even lower then before. They are a solid jamming unit and capable of dealing alright damage. Thats what you get for the cost.

Its a similar deal with Winter Guard Infantry and lots of Khadorites where very sore about that for no good reason in my opinion (Khadorite here).

>>47544616
You can't, but the tentacles can move within that 8" CMD however they like

if you want to call 3 charging POW 10s that end with free 11" drags followed up with a POW 15 "shit," that can benefit from the best legion buffs (incite, chiller, ignite, DB) well ok then.

>>47544628
>Thats why they where way too powerful before
I've played a massive amount of them and it wasn't the unit in itself, it was pSkarre and the 2-3" bonus from revival with Necrosurgeon. They removed both.
As far as jamming goes they just made a unit that does exactly that with the undead ravens for the same points, but more speed and survivability. Heck, the ravens even dish relatively similar damage if they attack a damaged target.
With Skarre you had a 12" range unit who dishes out 3 boosted power 18 attacks, or more alongside Bane Knighs hitting the combat with similarly broken offensive ability.
You could bring 40 models in 35 points, each able to hit most things and the need for 2-4 models to kill a Khador heavy. That was broken as fuck. This way they got toned down a lot and after that nerfed even more.

>>47544587

That sounds pretty neat actually.

Get lucky with a Boltthrower crit or get a beast to knockdown their caster for auto hits, then drag that bitch back to the resort of your army. Doubly so if you run 2.

Finally something to get me excited for Legion in MK3.

why exactly is there a FA max on clockwork angels

who looks at clockwork angels and is like "yknow what we really need to stop there from being more than 9 of these on the board at a given time"

>>47543880
Grolar/behemoth come to mind as a nasty one two punch, that or bring a couple decimators for beat back/ripsaw fun.

>>47544753
Why is it an issue? You don't want more than 3-6 anyways, even with Aurora.

>>47544752
i think you almost always want to take 2, place them somewhat centrally but not quite in a zone, so their tentacles can always get to zones and drag stuff out of them. in the case of a single zone i'd still take 2, just to bully. they'll always be able to find something to do in the most relevant part of the board.

or, hell, occultate them too.

>>47544788
I have extras from the Aurora theme force. Each one is individually posed and customized. Just sucks. I mean if they were stronger models I might be able to see it. Limiting the foundries to 2 made total sense. The angels...not so much.

>>47543880
I was planning on using this list.

Karchev
Behemoth
Juggernaut
Kodiak
Devastator
Grolar
Rager

Widowmakers

Mechaniks

Might swap the rager out for an 11 cost unit, or a koldun lord + ternion.

>>47544181
oh god are you the same fuck that was saying vectors outdo Retribution jacks on operational times?

>>47544813
The loss of CMA hurt them, but I think they're better with Aurora in terms of actually benefiting from her feat.I think they'll actually be better for killing support models now.

>>47544839
Nope, that was me. And I can start posting pictures from the Forces Book that prove me right, if you feel like being wrong some more.

CoC Lyfe.

>>47544858
>CoC Lyfe.
I hope you enjoy all your cool new releases
LOL

>>47544875
Like the one we're getting in about two months, or the new stuff that's going to be in our Forces book?

>>47544771
>>47544814

This is all cute but what in specific do you see about dealing with them?

Like whats the strategy against another jack heavy list. Especially against a beast heavy list.

>>47544644


>tentacles can move

Viable

>>47544910
did you miss where I wrote SPD 5 under Tentacle? jfc

>>47544887
Literally kek
You're getting nothing new in your forces book

>>47544892
Road to War actually lets him control the engagement pretty well. As long as there's infantry on the table to kill somewhere, the widowmakers pop a few targets and let jacks move. Two of those jacks have pathfinder. One has knockdown on hit, the other has chain attack for double handed throws and mat 7. Arm 23 devastator makes for a piece that can absorb a charge to set up for a countercharge. A countercharge from the juggernaut could pop an aspect on a lot of beasts. Karchev has a spray 10 with knockdown that he can shoot at the steady devastator. I feel like it has solid scenario pressure and bullying. Probably not enough raw power to deal with a full on legion beast list, but it brings movement and scenario pressure that's hard to find in khador. Behemoth is probably the best heavy in the game, early on it throws out 2 boosted bombards a turn, then as a last wave jack it's mat 7 and dice+2 vs arm 20.

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>>47543350
>95% accurate

Right. I get the feeling its around 100%

>>47544940
They straight up said we were getting new shit in the Forces book that isn't the Conflux.

>>47544977
>subhuman CoC player thinking he's playing a real faction
The funniest shit

>>47544987
I'm glad you think that. Going to be real funny when CoC, who barely got nerfed and got some decent buffs, starts running rampant all over the new meta.

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>>47544999

>>47543976
You reach 3" into their deployment zone. Why would you play for scenario?

>>47545096
Because when LoS is blocking your ability to see half their deployment zone, your alpha isn't nearly as good as you think it is.

>>47545096
the math about why this "hunters shoot into ur deploy" list is shitty and ultimately ineffectual is all over the place

Also am I crazy or did all the Junior Warcasters half in cost?

In my leak Andrie is still 4 points when he should theoretically be 8 points.

>>47545213
They got cheaper, I think, but they are all required to take a warjack in their battlegroup.

>>47545213
Andy cost 3 points in mk2. So did all character juniors. The generic junior cost 2 points. Now all juniors cost 4.

>>47545240
>>47545303

Nice. Even with the free Focus, Andy gives some serious hitting power and speed. He can even camp a focus every turn now.

>>47545303
Generic junior used to cost 3 points too.

>>47545392
what jack do you think Andy wants?

I still like the Grolar. Redline on that thing is mean. same with Rager and Spriggan. maybe 2 of those on him depending who the main caster is...

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>mfw as a menoth-fag my LGS players think 9 hunters is going to be dominant

I'm feeling quite good about Skorne honestly. Hexeris2 looks really good, Makeda1 looks like a fine beast warlock since with her and Marketh dropping three 4" blasts a turn infantry won't last long, and I really want to use more Cyclops now that they're a chunk cheaper than Mk2. I've put a Cyclops Brute in front of your infantry. Now what? Gonna charge it?

>>47545624
Same as always, behemoth. Redlined behemoth is still able to put like 50 damage onto arcane shielded stormwalls in mk2. And if you're not going into melee yet, only needing to give him 1 focus means that andy can actually boost his hand cannon now. And the new focus camping rules makes journeymen way more survivable, but I'd still keep meatshields around him.

Beyond that, Grolar is good. And speed 6 P+S 21 juggernaut with 3 focus is a thing.

>>47545624

Grolar has a knockdown hammer but eh. His speed boosts stack only in running and I find that a waste because it outpaces andrie.

Rager can't use his Focus which is the main point of Andrie in the first place. The Rager can still shield andrie if its just being near him for whatever reason.

I find myself thinking Juggernaught. Have a Grolar hit a target with your primary caster, and then second wave with a 21 pow axe.

The general reduced cost of the warjack also makes him less of a target for attacks....As much as that is possible.

>>47545784
don't you need 2 focus to Powerful Attack both behemoth bombards?

>>47545920
Power-up gives him 1, andrei allocates a second leaving andrei with 3 if he hasn't cast redline yet.

>>47545953
ah got it. i kept seeing things implying Behemoth would only need to spend 1 focus total to get Powerful Attack on both bombard shots and wondered if i was misreading something about Sub-Cortex.

>>47545664


>all ranged jacks have at least 1 focus to boost to hit
>thinking def 14 will save you

Wew

>>47545997
>I don't know what Passage is.

>>47545997
Sloan's feat is out of activation shooting, can't spend focus out of activation.

>>47545997
the premise of the Kara hunter list is feating top of 1 after the hunters run to shoot 2" into deployment under buffs and feat. it's an out of activation shot that can't be boosted and hence it's basically garbage.

now the shots on 2 will be mean, but you're bringing 9 guns and that's not going to stop a real army, AP or no.

>>47542206
How is Warmahordes lorewise? I recently found out one of my favorite authors has written a few books for them, so now I'm thinking of getting into it.

>>47546023


Tbh senpai strangeways can hand out magical attack like candy and explosivo makes stuff damage type:magical as well.

The winning combo being that if he brings 7 hunters, you bring 11 crusaders

W e w

>people think sloan hunter list will be good when terrain is going to be flooding the table under new rules

>>47546057
the lore is really cool, i can't speak to the quality of the novel writing though (haven't read any). fluff from the rule books and the new short stories put out in advance of mk3 are fairly simplistic but decent.

>>47546057
The setting is pretty cool and very detailed. The shit in the wargames books is pretty mediocre and the novels tend to be so-so.

>>47546072
at this point its not even cygtards thinking it'll be good, its other factions freaking out like idiots

>>47546057
Read the original RPG (Made for D&D 3e) books for interesting lore and worldbuilding.

>>47546072
The steamroller pack went from 5-7 to 6-8. Plus it is really very meta dependant, the average at mine is already 6.

You can also opt to go second to see how they unpack their army

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>>47545997
>1 focus to boost to hit
>Sloan gives them boosted hit rolls anyways
>Passage exists

Welcome to the game, senpai.

>>47545698
>>47545698
Makeda1 is shit
>randomly lost Combo Strike
>traded a cost 2 nuke that prevented warbeasts frfom moving closer to the caster for a cost 3 nuke that causes -2 THR
>lost Defender's Ward
>gained ctrl up bg shield guard in a faction where there are already 3 shield guard warbeasts and two are good and one was often taken with her before
>lost Savagery for Quicken (faster charges but no super fast shieldwalls)
>feat gets nerfed so ressed models have no combat action (previously they had combat action but no movement - never mind that feat is bypassed by rfp effects and doesn't work if you lose a full unit)

She's shit m8. Had they tossed her Stay Death from her mk2 incarnation, she'd at least be able to make the feat do some work.

>>47546250
people should have never caved to gunline whining with regard to terrain in mk2 to begin with. at least with the new ed there's a new chance to tell them to fuck off

>>47546282


Are you dumb or did you misinterpret

>def 14 on hunters is negligible because all ranged jacks can easily boost to hit

With

>hunters are really good because they get one free focus

?

Dumb bird poster

>>47546309
The cost 3 nuke reducing threshold isn't why it's good. It's the fact that it's a 4" blast she can throw twice per activation that has enough damage to risk wiping out entire units of infantry.

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>>47546023
>>47546039
>>47546045
>not understanding he meant focus on ranged attacks shooting at the hunters

lul

>>47546068
>like candy
>once per turn
>on a FA C model

best be trolling.

>>47546609
Delusional cygnar fags, ignore them

>>47546400
Which blows her whole stack and leaves her without transfers. God forbid you want to rely on something other than deviation because she's a shoddy Fury 6. Then you take into account blast damage is only Pow 7. So is functionally ignored by all medium bases, any shieldwall and most notable heavy infantry (ie, Dawnguard Sentinels, Bane Warriors, Stormblades, Exemplar Errants).

So you're realistically just tossing it out, to deviate vs. high def infantry or those few midline units like Praetorians. So even if we assume that tossing out 4" inch blasts twice to three times per activation is good - its still on a bad package and not enough to make her worthwhile. If you wanted to toss out blasts, you could just take a Mammoth and not spend your caster's fury. Or play another caster who does the spellslinging better like Rasheth or Zaal1/2 or Hexeris1/2. Even Mak3 arguably benefits from tossing aoes out more.

>>47546788
>Which blows her whole stack and leaves her without transfers
Bring a Shaman for a Talisman, they're cheaper now.
>God forbid you want to rely on something other than deviation because she's a shoddy Fury 6
Deviation is far better against infantry than direct hits if Incindiarii have taught me anything.
>Then you take into account blast damage is only Pow 7
More than enough to kill a chunk of infantry.
>So is functionally ignored by all medium bases
Medium bases will just bounce off your beasts anyway. It's the swarms that get in the way. And besides, didn't medium bases just lose a chunk of DEF and boxes?

I'm not suggesting Makeda1 is magically amazing; just trying to look on the bright side. And if models being terrible in certain situations means they're useless then I don't see why Incindiarii have gotten a reputation as a solid unit considering they're a waste of points against Menoth and Trolls.

>>47545624
Big B is still the best best I think.
Andy Pandy can run let him throw out two fully boosted 4" AOEs from 20" away, upkeep Redline, and still have two camped.

Mechanics make for great Sac Pawn targets and make the Redline damage negligible too.

I also like the idea of running two 'jacks with him, maybe double Jugger, but I'd want to see what the rules for warcaster destruction and 'jack reactivation are first.
The other problem with double Jugger is the 8" Ctrl, which kinda limits where they can go pretty severely.

>>47546933
It doesn't limit it that badly. If Andy is standing next to them, they can charge 9 inches and still be in control because of their base size.

>>47546933
they don't even need to be in control except to allocate. beasts have to be in control to be forced, but jacks don't have to be in control to spend focus

>>47547199
Beasts also need to be in control range to reave.

>>47547175
>>47547199
Sure, I've just found it makes positioning pretty awkward, especially the turn after you launch the juggermissiles.

>>47546862
Never said you were trying to say she's amazing, I just think your look on the bright side is a little misguided in the placement of your attention? Personally, I think the way to go might be through the use of the scarab packs. Under Subjugation of Will, which is admittedly unneeded in the faction, you basically get 40 boxes of shield guard for 10 points. Spreading them out and using them to grab bullets for units should allow you to keep at least one alive for feat turn purposes. That doesn't rest on blowing her stack as often so it leads place for potential Carnage use or Quicken swapping (if you feel safe leaving her with 1 transfer).

>>47543590
Cygnar stopped crying when the stormwall was released. at least those that weren't faction purists.

ABBY1 50point list woooooo
-mild/low competitive environtment-
31
absyolonia1 +31 WBP
BoltThrower11
Neraph12
Angelius17

Forsaken4
shepard1
Raptors18
Anyssa 8

Shredder4
Hellmaw (6???)


>starting legion for MK3
Neraph too trash to be viable at medium to (lowish)levels of play? more than 2 heavies for abby1? thoughts~

>>47543753
Bitch about it thematically all you want, but 8-box Skinwalkers aren't imbalanced. They're ARM16 in a faction that can only buff ARM with a few of it's casters, and their primary defensive tech is health regen.

I'm sure Circle players would have gladly taken Warders2.0, despite having three fewer boxes Warders are distinctly harder to kill, but that isn't what they got.

>>47547526

you usually want to run her really beast heavy so I'd probably lose the raptors/anyssa for moar beasts, especially a raek

>>47547526
With the new meta, you're going to want to take more 'Beasts to break all the Warjack spam.

Raptors are neat, but a luxury you don't need at 50 points, especially since the full boat is a whopping 26 points.

>>47547724
THE LEGIONBRO"S REVEAL THEMSELVES, THE THREAD IS SAVED!

okay so I personally absolutely LOVE the raek model however going off of what people have been saying and off my own experience it seems to be very limited in its capacity to be competent. Would you mind giving me an argument for why its still good?

>>47547753
fair enough. Do you guys think that Legionnaires (with or without UA) would be a decent replacement to jam and fill?

thank you

>>47546072
Terrain isn't what makes it bad, though it could, but terrain distribution is always uncertain.

What makes it bad is that the math for 9 hunter shots without damage boost isn't actually that great, the only way it'll work is if you catch your opponent with his pants completely down, otherwise it'll probably be a super shitty list.

Hunters under Sloan are great, but if the opponent doesn't hand their caster to her on a silver platter the NINEHUNTER LOL list will lose on either attrition or scenario like nothing.

>>47544723
>I've played a massive amount of them and it wasn't the unit in itself, it was pSkarre and the 2-3" bonus from revival with Necrosurgeon

Absolute fucking bullshit.

No other faction could get a unit as badass as a bunch of stealthed, dark shrouded weapon masters for that cost. They were WAY too good.

>>47547817
the raek is awesome because of double CTRL range jumping headbutts. it's admittedly no longer the jammer it was in mk2. but its new role is muuuuch better

legos are kind of shit. their defensive tech got gutted. i'll admit they did too much. but it's again taking away too much. they're supposed to be the tarpit, but they're no longer viable as one - they competed too much with swordsmen, but swordsmen got much better in an offense role and legos got much worse in a defense one; they should have kept set defense at least. oh well. maybe take a min to contest a zone and feed to a gobber chef to manage fury

>>47547817
>raeks

really cheap for what you get, double command range plus all their movement means they'll be great for distracting/making your opponent divert stuff to deal with it, and a bounding headbutt is the perfect way to start an assassination run

>>47548108
>>47548037
Unfortunately Legionnaires are the ones I have ;_; I know they got shafted however I am fortunate to not be dealing with a tourney level environment so i'll have to just take that hit for now i guess.

>dont mind me, I'll just be purchasing a Raek now

Thanks for providing me legit reasons to use a model I wanted to get but was unsure of its viability.

To foster further conversation, What do you guys think of the Strider Scout/ blightblade units?

>>47543980

What's your full list looking like?

I'm actually tempted to try and run this

Absylonia2
-Blight Wasps x2
-Raek
-Proteus
-Scythean x2
-Seraph
Forsaken x2
Spell Martyr x2

Dunno how functional the Wasps will be. Martyrs are for the possibility of safely arcing a Hex Bolt, instead of having to send Abby in for melee triggering Conferred Ra...Alpha Hunter.

>>47548417
I like it, Scytheans will clear chaff and any large threats, raek headbutts warnoun and proteus slipstreams up to OMNOMNOMNOM

I think the blight wasps will either be really annoying or dealt with too efficiently

>>47548260
So, Strider Rangers (now Scouts) were kind of It All in mk2 and got toned back as a result (seeing a trend here?) they totally overshadowed Archers in mk2. now each does a totally different thing

i think of striders as skirmishers and archers as the guys who stand behind an infantry line and shoot. striders are still good, but they do a whole different role than they used to - like being obnoxious with stealth and having crazy movement shenanigans, especially when a deathstalker is around (you want 2 of those btw). whereas archers are easier to kill with worse defenses, but can toss out 3 POW 21 arcing fire CRAs with 18" threat range on lylyth2's feat turn

>>47548518

It'll largely come down to how much infantry we commonly see in 3e. Wasps on feat turn with Alpha Hunter can absolutely shred single wounders, but it's not as if they can cripple heavies.

>>47548417
in mk2 you used blight wasps in packs of 3 optimally. i can't explain it well but there's a lot of examples of JVM using them to great effect. don't know how that shakes out in mk3.

consider 1 carnivean instead of one of those scytheans imo. Alpha Hunter and hear fear make the Carn feared like it always should have been.

>>47548260
>Strider Scout/ blightblade units

I have a box of them I haven't built since I was waiting for mk3 to see which to choose, I'm leaning towards scouts and picking up their officer but I'm open to arguments for blightblades if anyone has them

>>47548568
her feat*>>47548569

>>47548569
2x ambushing blight blades that benefit from incite and one of which is under chiller will be very, very silly. that said they can't play into jacks. if you want anti-jack infantry, get swordsmen. their new solo is great. straight-up decap.

>>47548604

I'm honestly not that impressed with the Warlord. Cool set of abilities but too easily killed. It's like an inferior Mage Hunter Assassin, which somehow made it through to 3e without nerfing.

>>47548569
So...Blightblades can be good and can cause pressure for sure, you can buff them and all of a sudden the enemy has a dangerous unit on the flank threatening their warnoun. Sure Jackspam will just throw a jugger at them but you run them around it and all of a sudden...well shit what do i do, i have to have a significant change of plan to not die.

>never played legion
>take it with a grain of salt

>>47548630
screen and deliver to face, just like every powerful combat solo.

I'm actually curious if anyone has some Lylyth1 builds yet. Some people seem unusually positive about her now.

>>47548604
>>47548657

it seems like they'd be of way more limited use than scouts though

Anyone seen the desert hydra card yet?

>>47548916
Well I would think of it this way, the scouts are more versatile because they can walk on and shoot something, however I think that its possible that the blightblades bring more direct punch and cause more problems. However I will say that scouts will probably be consistently better.


OR YOU CAN BE LIKE GO MY NINJAS CUT THEM TO RIBBONS GYAAAAA

>>47548764
take with a grain of salt, she's pretty far down my dojo list, and she wants different stuff (things that like to charge AND things that like to shoot).

Lylyth1 +30
-Succubus -4
-Carnivean -19
-Angelius -17
-Seraph -14
-Bolt Thrower -11
-Shredder -4
Annyssa -8
Forsaken x2 -8
Shepherd x2 -2
Raptors (M) -18

Any Merc players getting Mk2.99 games in? Report your findings.

I've had 3 games with Magnus2 so far, here's what I've found:
-Magnus2 is really really good. I run him either 2xRenegade 3xHeavy (Mangler, Rover, Nomad), or 1xRenegade and switch the Nomad for Rocinante. Unsure which is better, but I'm leaning towards Rocinante.
-Croe's Cutthroats might be super good. Reposition5 gives them this weird pseudo blast immunity because unless you're stupid no more than one of them should ever get hit by a blast. RAT5 can be a problem but Magnus2 fixes for that with Calamity.
-Rhupert is 11/10 auto-include, because his songs aren't limited to units or even warrior models anymore. Turns out giving concealment to your caster or Pathfinder to a warjack at a clutch moment is real fucking good.
-Savio Acosta is a bretty gud Bullet Dodger target, because it gives flat +Def now rather than only against ranged and magic.

>>47549067

An interesting start at least. Why the Shredder?

>>47549067
I want deathstalkers and a ravagore in there but fuck if i know how

>>47548964
hydra was canceled. sorry

>>47549112
finishing shit off that's engaged by the carni or angel that isn't all the way dead. the seraph is there to let the BT aim with 2 more inches, or pull lyle back

>>47549138

Fair. Thanks for the responses.

Who're higher up on your dojo priorities? Right now I'm looking at Lylyth3, Thag1, Twins, Beth, and Kryssa (mostly for her feat).

>>47549109
Bart spamming Rovers is going to be obnoxious
Not sure how much can break through that much ARM23

>>47549200
sure man, anytime

higher on my list (in no particular order really) are abby2, thags1, vayl1, lylyth2, and kallus.

tho hey, you got my gears turning on lylyth1, which is cool, i think i want to toy around with that a little more. it's tough, since you want one shot per turn to be Witch Mark and the other to be Blood Lure, and her feat is shooting, so you definitely want stuff to do both. honestly i just want the ravagore for the animus, which is a bad reason to take it.

>>47549274

Something I was toying with was

Thag1
-Naga
-Carnivean
-Ravagore
~Succubus
Throne
Max Swordsmen + UA
Max Spawning Vessel
Shepherd x2

A bit light on Fury generation, but Athanc covers it fine.

This might be too one-dimensional.

Lylyth2
-Naga
-Bolt Thrower
-Ravagore x2
~Succubus
Max Archers + UA
Strider Deathstalker x2
The Forsaken x2

>>47544587
I'm a bit fuzzy on the rules at the moment, out of practice-
Can the tentacles leave CMD and still hit people?
SO I could, in theory, place one at 8", charge it another 8" and send something screaming into the pit?

"Circle is really good at movement!

We toned down circle's movement in the new edition."

Fuck Soles

>>47549926
I almost swear he's doing it on purpose at this point.