>To learn a new spell, a wizard must first encounter and 'capture' it
Would this be a good way to balance spellcasters?
Only if fighters can encounter and capture those spells to gain that ability.
>still playing 3.5/PF
Why are you doing this to yourself?
>play cleric or druid
>have ALL THE SPELLS from the start
>>47477049
That's what a wizard's cut of the dungeon treasure should be, scrolls they can copy
Only if "encountering" means having it used on them.
Not as good of a way as not playing DnD.
>>47477109
What if "capturing" means eating it?
>>47477085
fighters can capture and learn melee attacks
Depends on the rules on capturing it? Is it a simple spellcraft roll when seeing the spell casted, scrolls, an one on one duel against a living version of that spell or what?
>>47477049
>To learn a new spell, a wizard must first encounter and 'capture' it
>Would this be a good way to balance spellcasters?
You might not know this, but in older editions of D&D, wizards didn't automatically learn spells. They had to find (i.e. the DM had to give them) a spell written down somewhere, then the wizard had to roll to see if he could even understand it. This allowed the DM to make sure only the spells he wanted in the game would show up, without the hassle of constantly vetoing or second-guessing decisions.
Isn't this how D&D wizards are intended to work anyways? Learn spells by taking them from the spell books of defeated foes or scrolls found in ancient tombs?
>>47477049
Wasn't this how Blue Mages work in FF5? I'd make em a bit more defensive if I were you.
>>47477951
Yep. Or at least that's how it worked until 2e threw sorcerers into the mix, and then everything went to hell.
>>47477049
Just play a balanced system
>>47477049
Balancing a powerful ability with meta inconveniences is fun for no one and bad design.
It doesn't make the thing balanced, it just makes it more obnoxious and unfun to use.
>>47478065
Thats how Blue Mages always were in all FF games
>>47477165
The fuck?
So mages get cool awesome super powers and the martials are still relegated to "hit stuff with stick?"
The fuck's the point of that shit nigga?
>>47478077
I thought Sorc's were a 3e thing.
I never really understood the point of having a wizard who can cast spells without having to memorize them.
>>47478160
That's how wizards were supposed to work in early D&D though.
You gained spells through finding scrolls and spellbooks, you could only use a spell that you managed to learn, and you (as the GM) were able to set the pace by determining which spells they were able to find.
>>47479017
>fight a giant snake
>learn constriction debuff + the ability to poison enemies with your blade
>fight a skeleton
>learn the art of only taking half damage from piercing weapons
>fight an ogre
>learn how to rip out part of the battle environment and use it as an improvised weapon for 2x damage
>fight a ghost
>learn how to use your blade to cause level drain
Seems pretty cool to me.
>>47479034
Anon was incorrect; it was 3E where sorcerers were introduced.
>>47479034
The idea behind a sorcerer was that while a wizard would have a big library of spells, the sorcerer would have a small handful focused on a specific area.
It didn't quite work out that way due to 3.5, but the idea of a caster that does nothing but fire spells for example could have a place.
>>47479077
Okay man, you've convinced me.
That actually sounds pretty cool.
Though I have to wonder, why is this not considered magic?
I mean, magically taking half damage from piercing damage and magically learning how to drain levels and shit sounds no different than learning spells.
>>47477095
He obviously isn't, this is one of those thought experiments. Its like those chess problems: you are never going to encounter them in a real game of chess.
I'd even go as far as to say that OP's hobby is to post on 4chan, he does not play tabletop games at all.
>>47479152
It's sort of magic? You're just a badass who fucking defies physics. You're like herucles, diverting an entire river or Beowulf holding your breath for hours out of faith in god. You don't give a fuck because you're a badass.
>>47479209
I understand, it's just, why not just call them spells and magic?
>>47479227
Because that kills it. Nobody wants to be associated with those gay ass mages.
>>47479152
>>47479227
That's kind of how Blue Mages work in Final Fantasy.
If you get hit with something you can learn, and you're alive at the end of the fight, you learn the technique.
That includes spells like Aero, Flare, and Doom, but also stuff like Goblin Punch, Mighty Guard, 1000 Needles, and Missile.
>>47477049
Everyone should just know magic. Melee types know internal magic. Traditional mages know external magic. Balance solved.
>>47478169
FFV was the first game to include blue mages, and debatably still the best game to implement them
>>47479227
Because wizards physically can't do that. There is a limitation in place that makes it physically impossible for magic users to learn these things. Like magic of he mind and magic of the body.
>>47479227
Because that's not what it is?
>>47479314
what if I don't want to use magic at all
if I wanted to use magic I would never have even attempted to play a Fighter in the first place
>>47479279
Yet you want to gain not!Magic and not!Spells from magical creatures...yet somehow that isn't magical or spells?
It just sounds like martialfags wanting their cake and eating it too again.
>>47479302
>>47479356
That's the thing though, that's still magic and spells.
The word "mage" is used in the class's name. You're still a mage, it's just that your power is based off of surviving hits rather than simply learning them through scrolls and spellbooks.
>>47479354
Says who?
With enough magic and prep, a mage could survive just as much damage as a martial of equal level.
>>47479388
You don't want to use magic yet you want to learn not!Magic at the same time.
Why not just say "I want to play a martial who gets cool magic too" and just be honest with yourself.
>>47479414
>It just sounds like martialfags wanting their cake and eating it too again.
Well they sure do enough of THAT
Anon who posted the examples of a fighter learning attacks here.
>>47479152
>Though I have to wonder, why is this not considered magic?
If you really, really, really need to justify why this guy can only hit things with a stick but that other guy can tear holes in reality, then how about this:
>poison blade: it's literally a blade with poison on it
>half damage from piercing weapons: by fighting the skellies you learn where all the bones are aligned and are able to move your body to turn vital blows into mere flesh wounds
>level drain: slicing tendons and shit
>>47479388
Because realistically, anyone with magic is gonna trump anyone without it. Only low ranking foot soldiers and guards could get away without knowing some basic magic of some kind.
>>47479414
If you're going to be that much of a pain, give casters all the 'actives' and martials all the passives.
You fought enough snakes that your sword is poison.
You fought enough vampires you get x/day 'use CON as CHA.'
You farmed enough bear asses you get Bare Armor, +1 to AC.
While wizards get the spells.
Shoot missiles.
Whip up hurricanes.
Punch things, but in a way that if they're the same level as you they take eight times the normal damage.
>>47479414
>That's the thing though, that's still magic and spells.
a spell typically implies some kind of incantation and/or ritual. and "magic" is basically meaningless so who cares.
>>47479471
>>47479590
As I said before, I'm not saying that it's a bad thing or whatever, in fact, I think that it's really interesting and could work if there was a credible system behind it.
I'm just trying to understand the logic of having obviously magical feats and abilities granted to them yet somehow having them be not!magic.
I mean, D&D 5e at least acknowledges shit like the 4 element monks and EK taking the bulk of their abilities from spells, why pretend to be mundane when it's obvious that that you're using a form of magical power to achieve an extraordinary effect.
It just feels dishonest.
>>47479633
>all magic is spells
How boring.
>>47479592
You're stealing magical effects from magical creatures and spending MP to activate said spells that you stole from said creature.
How is that not some form of spell?
Guys, I'm beginning to think we're in the presence of the FUCKING RIDDLES poster.
>>47477049
this is why you just control what spells the wizard fnds in the form of books and scrolls. if 3.pf is still too much, adopt the old rule that wizards only gained free spells on level up if they got a new spell level, and only 1 spell of that level so the ability to cast them wasnt wasted.
>>47479649
>Activating abilities like shooting poison from your eyes and taking half damage from Piercing weapons from a resource aren't spells.
>>47479786
>Everything that doesn't work exactly the same as it does in reality is magic or spells
>>47479843
>Skill that breaks reality and drains MP isn't magical or a spell.
No seriously, why is it so hard to accept this?
>>47479673
>How is that not some form of spell?
i just explained that. the dictionary definition of a spell is "A form of words used as a magical charm or incantation", "a spoken word or form of words held to have magic power", "A word or formula believed to have magic power", "a verbal formula considered as having magical force" - you get the picture. it's not just any special power.
regardless, D&D doesn't treat all magical abilities as spells, so it's a moot point.
i don't know where you got the idea of spending MP from, maybe you have your own idea about what is being discussed.
>>47477049
I could see it for sorcs in DnD terms.
>>47477903
there's this too, I had actually plotted in my head that in a DnD game I might run that, past third level, spells become exponentially difficult to find and learn, to where the greatest casters who weren't outright deities or demi-deities only knew maybe one spell from the seventh to ninth levels.
With classes like Warlocks and Clerics, it would be a case of their patrons requiring them to do increasingly difficult and out-of-the-way tasks before being granted a new spell.
>>47479919
You're the only one who's bringing up magic points, and the abilities being discussed might break reality from our perspective, but be entirely consistent with the reality of the setting in question. Faggot.
>>47479919
>drains MP
What are you on about? You're the only person even mentioning this.
>>47480023
That sounds good, but now you're punishing the rest of the group who dont give a shit if Fred gets another spell or not. In the same way that groups dont go on quests to get gear for fighters, groups wont want to go on quests to get spells for the wizzy.
Unless your group is fine with this, in which case have at it.
>>47479944
>>47480046
>>47480061
Listen, we can get hung up on definitions and MP/X per day and all that shit until the cows come home but that's really besides the point.
The point I was trying to make is, why pretend that the magical effect you gain isn't magical in nature?
It just feels dishonest and a distracting nitpick in general, like those martialfags who come up with all those homebrew rules where you can break reality from flexing your butt cheeks or some stupid shit like that.
>>47480082
That's generally why spells are included in the loot that you gain from a dungeon.
>>47480126
Even IN D&D not everything that is "magical" is literally magic. (Su) and (Ex) effects are stupidly common, and then there are things that are flat-out impossible that aren't even given those tags. A dragon's flight isn't magical or even (Ex)traordinary, it's just a thing it can do.
>>47480082
>groups dont go on quests to get gear for fighters
...My group always went on quests to get me cool gear.
>>47480159
>A dragon's flight isn't magical or even (Ex)traordinary, it's just a thing it can do.
It has wings though.
>>47480250
No turbines, however.
>>47480250
As we all know any object of any size can fly just by dint of having wings of any description taped to it.
>>47480159
(Su)pernatural abilities are generally treated as spell-like abilities that come naturally to certain races (that are, in themselves, magical in some way, shape, or form) and (Ex)traordinary abilities operate on abilities that are supposed to "break physics" but more often than not are only shit that's marginally better off than what's given to your class as a martial.
>>47480355
It can when it has a fly speed.
>>47479152
>Though I have to wonder, why is this not considered magic?
Because it doesn't involve being a guy in robes who waves their hands and chanting while bright lights flash around and energy beams go this way and that.
And for the same reason, having a guy who waves their hands and chanting while bright lights flash around and energy beams go this way and that is magic even when you use terms like "nanomachines" and "string theory".
It's all certainly fantastic, though.
>>47480126
i agree it's a distracting nitpick. something being "magical" has very little meaning. i don't care if you call it magical, but i don't know why you care if they don't call it magical because it's the same either way. the label doesn't materially change anything. it's basically a placeholder for an explanation that some people take too seriously.
>>47480440
Because honestly, I'm sick of martialfags taking magical abilities and trying to claim that they're still non-magical.
They're the biggest fucking babies when it comes to that shit and it's like this, all the time.
That or they make up rules that break the game and claim that it's just "evening up the playing field."
>>47480408
Not all mages cast spells by waving their hands and chanting though.
Sorcerers and Bards basically just activate their spells on the fly, Druids and Clerics get their powers from their faith/beliefs, Warlocks get their powers from their patrons, and then there are the magic variants of the martial classes that cast spells as well.
If you want to gain supernatural power then go ahead, just don't pretend that you're still somehow non-magical while punching through solid brick walls and shouting so hard that you rupture someone's ear drums.
>>47480502
>>47480540
>>47477049
Oh look
It's this thread again
You don't fix spellcasters by making the rest of the party bend over backwards for them. Creating a special snowflake mechanic to 'justify' their powerlevel just places the spotlight more on them and even less on the martials and skillmonkeys. This is the exact opposite of fixing them, you complete retard.
If you want to make a mechanic like that, you need to design the game around it, and make sure everybody is playing a wizard, and 3.X would be awful for it anyway. Some kind of cardgame based RPG would work better, but none come to mind.
>>47480594
You don't see mages coming up with threads dedicated to making martials shittier than they already are but martialfags are always happy to come with homebrews that make playing a mage as tedious as possible or just say "I'm going to throw out everything and slap Pathfinder onto my shitty custom system."
Yet I'm salty for calling you out on your bullshit?
>>47480502
>Because honestly, I'm sick of martialfags taking magical abilities and trying to claim that they're still non-magical.
you didn't answer why you're taking it so seriously, you're just repeating that you do. you're getting just as worked up as them over the usage of an extremely vague word for a fictional concept that doesn't mean much by itself anyway.
>>47477049
You mean like Pokemon?
>>47480637
>calling you out on your bullshit?
>only one person can disagree with me
>only one person can make threads about martials in D&D
Have you tried not playing D&D?
>>47480652
Because it's dishonest to say "martials don't need magic to keep up with magefags" and then immediately go "here's an awesome homebrew power I came up with, I can do an AoE not!Fireball by rubbing by hands together really fast and shit and I consume grit each time I use it, which is totally different from spell slots because it's more MANLY!"
Just call it magic, move on, and stop trying to act like you're clever for coming up with not!Magic for your Fighter.
>>47480636
>If you want to make a mechanic like that, you need to design the game around it, and make sure everybody is playing a wizard, and 3.X would be awful for it anyway.
Good thing nobody mentioned 3.x.
>>47480699
This isn't even about D&D man.
This about martialfags, once again, trying to have their cake and eat it to.
If they just admitted to using magic then we could've moved on but nope, yet another martial vs. mage thread where the bulk of the argument is "we want to be magical without actually casting spells like sissies."
>>47480691
>wild fireballs and walls of force roaming the countryside
>Corner stores have scrolls you can put these spells on for 2-4 gold
>>47480744
I think the problem is that you're being autistic about semantics
>>47480637
OP just asked for your opinion on his idea, I doubt he was trying to victimize you personally.
>>47479077
Sounds like RE:Monster, except with less eating.
>>47480768
Hello pot, meet kettle.
>>47480774
>OP just asked for your opinion on his idea, I doubt he was trying to victimize you personally.
Meanwhile in >>47477049
>Would this be a good way to balance spellcasters?
And then the thread went to shit once martialfags went "buh it not magicks, magicks is gay, hurr durr."
>>47480723
Forgive me for assuming that an OP retarded enough to consider this an idea worth posting, and specifically mentioning 'balancing spellcasters' would obviously be referring to 3.X.
It seemed to be an acceptable leap of logic.
>>47480848
>Meanwhile in >>47477049 (OP)
Yes, that was him asking for your opinion. He wasn't trying to hurt your feelings.
>And then the thread went to shit once martialfags went "buh it not magicks, magicks is gay, hurr durr."
I think the thread went to shit for an entirely different reason.
>>47480813
Never played. I was basing it on Gau from FF6.
What if fighters could attune to any magical item by challenging the spirit inside it to a straight up fight and winning?
>>47480082
True, so I'd need to find a balance. Plus, if PCs are on some quest that threatens creation, there is no reason for Deities and such patrons to hold back on the good stuff.
Though on that note, I've always wanted to see how a campaign would go where PCs are basically dealing with an insanely serious threat and the Gods have temporarily boosted and geared them up to epic levels just to stand a chance. (you know, sort of the opposite of the party trying to stop a world ending threat and even the paladin's temple quartermaster is still charging the group double price for a basic gear)
>>47480963
Again, that's kinda how that shit worked in older versions of D&D.
Fighting Man was the only class in the game who could wield magical arms/armors.
>>47480963
I like it also why not make wizards burn his life when casting magic
So everytime you cast a spell you burn some of your lifespam and more powerfull the spell more lifespan you burn, and because of that all wizards are old mans and that why there are liches and why are so dangerous, they drain the life of the World to use magic
And on the same line magic items need life to be active so they can take from his bearer or his victim ... so more you kill with your sword, it become better and thirsty for life becomes ultil goes full BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD
>>47481018
Nah bro, every magic item has a spirit inside it (though the strength varies of course).
The Fighter either calls the spirit out or enters the item world to engage it in combat. He wins, he can use the item no matter what restrictions are on it.
Also, he could use combat in place of diplomacy by invoking the anime convention of making friends by getting into a fight with them.
>>47481432
Okay, now you're just being silly.
CHA is a dump stat for fighters.
>>47481427
I would go Wizards sacrifice things of emotional importance to them to fuel powerful spells and the memory of that thing is erased from their mind.
You have a teddy bear since you were a kid, it was given to you by your favorite grandpa, you have so many memories with that bear and you don't know where you would be without that thing since it tethered you down when times got tough. You sacrifice the teddy bear, the spell uses all of those emotional connections and memories of teddy as fuel, it results in a powerful spell and leaves you with a lingering sense of loss but you've learned to ignore such things now as the ashes of whatever you burned blow out of your hand.
Someone else takes that bear that means so much to you burns it, they might be able to power a first level spell due to the platonic ideal of childhood it represents and they don't suffer any loss other than some innocence from childhood.
That's why Wizards have no sense of right or wrong, they give up all that tethers them to this world for power.
>>47481508
And that's why he uses combat to make friends with people.
>>47481018
>Fighting Man was the only class in the game who could wield magical arms/armors.
Clerics got all magic armour and non-edged magic weapons.
>>47480900
Yer muh darkie, you know that?
>>47481569
I like it
>>47481704
>end-wizard's staff has a charm of beginning wizard on it
>>47481704
>the puppet of himself on the last staff
Because that makes wizards the focus of attention, and since the social outcasts that play wizards shy away from most kind of attention that would make them uncomfortable.
>>47481704
>>47481569
Building on that, Blood Magic is used because blood has a very important value as a symbol in most if not all cultures. It's most often used by evil wizards because the most powerful blood is the life blood, the blood from when someone bleeds out, and you can't really do that to yourself.
Combine life blood with sacrificing people you have an emotional connection to and you could fuel epic level spells.
There is a 'good' kind of sacrificial magic though, one capable of generating miracles. It is achieved when the caster sacrifices themselves and their essence to fuel a single spell.
The biggest cure for the caster/martial shitflinging is simple. Everybody needs to chill.
>Who is two of the greatest wizards of all time
Merlin and Gandalf. These fuckers was gods in lands made of cardboard. What did they do? Chill the fuck out. You should always be the smartest guy in the room, if you need to waste a spellslot fighting a normal threat then you're not.
Martials, bring that ass here boi. You lot, remember low level wizard? The third rate hack of a magician who's biggest form of support was knowledge checks? Those low levels was the tax he paid to get where he is now. Sure he will act like an asshole once in while but remember, he was once just a class that was 3 spellslots away from being a fucking peasant
>>47481917
>>47480540
>Sorcerers and Bards basically just activate their spells on the fly
orcerers have to wave their hands and Bards literally sing/chant/recite poetry.
>>Druids and Clerics get their powers from their faith/beliefs, Warlocks get their powers from their patrons...
Then raise their holy symbol/staff into the air and speak the incantations that invoke supernatural power.
>>then there are the magic variants of the martial classes that cast spells as well.
That have to keep hands free so they can make the gestures necessary while they recite Wizard spells in order to hurl fireballs and sparkly illusions.
But a Rogue's ability to detect shit isn't treated as "magic" in the same way a Warlock casting Darkvision spell is. A Monk's ability to bypass damage as if their fists were magic isn't treated the same as casting Magic Weapon. A Barbarian channeling the fury of their ancestors isn't treated the same as casting "Enhance Ability".
All fantastic, but nobody is going to call the people wielding these powers "magicians" or "spellcasters" or "mages" in the same sense they would a Druid or Sorcerer, or even an Eldritch Knight.
And the "non-magical" version of the Ranger still features the ability to heal with poultices and call forth creatures from the wild without having to cast Cure Wounds or Summon nature's Ally.
You can give characters fantastic and even supertnatural abilities without making them mages/priests or warriors with some mage/priest training.
Because "magic" has certain trappings that generally imply that what is being done is beyond the actual scope and capabilities of the person wielding it and has to be "invoked" by appealing to their relationship with higher powers. Martial characters in plenty of works of fiction that aren't magical are able to do things that would be physically impossible in our world because they're that good at that thing.
>>47480637
>You don't see mages coming up with threads dedicated to making martials shittier than they already are
The fuck? Any time martials get something awesome, magefags start crying about "muh realism".
Especially when you see how some people DM. "You want to ricochet an arrow off that mirror to hit a target? Give me an attack roll with a penalty, a % chance to see if it hits, and then it can't deal extra precision damage because that's realistic. Want to reflect a lightning bolt spell off a mirror? Cool. Just do it because it just makes sense that lightning shot from your fingertips bounces off of mirrors without error."
>>47482061
Light naturally bounces off of reflective surfaces while banking a shot off of a mirror to hit someone generally requires an understanding of geometry and physics to pulls off accurately and arrows aren't really designed to bounce off of surfaces like bullet can. An arrow is designed to pierce through objects and travel in a straight path.
Don't believe me? Shoot an arrow at a small mound of dirt and then shoot a painball at that same mound of dirt and see which ones will roll up the hill and which one just impales itself in the ground.
With that being said, the GM is still letting you roll and there's always that chance where you roll a NAT 20 and pull off cool guy shit in spite of it.
Stop being a fucking bitch and stop blaming casters when their entire concept revolves around breaking the laws of physics.
>>47477109
Bah! Just seeing it should be enough.
>>47482012
That's also because most martial characters in works of fiction were either demigods (magic's in the blood) or wielded magical equipment that allowed them to go past what was possible for an ordinary man.
Even Batman is only able to keep up with the other Justice Leaguers because he has the resources to and even then, it's not so much keeping up as knowing enough about them to disable them if they ever go rogue.
>>47482217
No!
You want those nifty monster spells, you have know what it's like to get hit by that shit.
It's the same principle as why law enforcement makes you get tazed and pepper sprayed before you actually get a license to own one.
>>47482254
And soldiers are shot with rifles to know how it feels, and firefighters are set on fire.
>>47482340
Do you have a single source to back that up?
>>47482254
>A fairy taught humans the first blue magic to have a laugh at the stupid human's expense.
>Humans perfect their magic
>>47482237
>That's also because most martial characters in works of fiction were either demigods
You mean like most wizards in the fiction D&D claims it descends from? Gandalf wasn't no human.
>>47482196
>Light naturally bounces off of reflective surfaces
>reflect a lightning bolt
dumb shitposter
>>47482406
Do you just not have a part of your brain that detects facetiousness or something?
>>47482340
This is actually true. I started shooting myself in the foot with .22lr in order to build up resistance. Now I can take a .45LC to the chest no problem.
>>47482426
A Mage being human or not has not basis on the fact that their purview includes "guy who makes reality his bitch."
Nobody is going to be shooting fireballs out of their hands and warping across continents but then again, magic isn't real and never tried to be real.
A dude lifting a boulder the size of small building can only do that because he himself was a demigod that was capable of great things because of his bloodline. You take that element away and he's just as weak and ordinary as any other person.
>>47482430
Actually, there are Lightning bolt spells that can bounce off of flat surfaces in older versions of D&D at least.
>>47482582
>You take that element away and he's just as weak and ordinary as any other person.
Why take it away? Was this thread about magic ever trying to be realistic?
>>47482430
>http://dungeonsdragons.wikia.com/wiki/Lightning_Bolt
Totally legit
Now stop your bitching.
>>47477049
Wind Rain Shadow Wood
Sword Thunder Power Sleep
Cardcaptors of the Clow
Expect the unexpected now
>>47482627
It's to prove a point.
Every hero in fictional stories gained extraordinary powers through the aid of magic.
Whether it's a magical bloodline, magical equipment, a curse, or having the resources to achieve those magical effects, the "mundanes" that you hear about in old myths and stories were just as magical as the mages.
If you took away their magic, they'd be just as weak as the fighter is, maybe even moreso.
>In the future, magic spells are practically identical to computer programs
>Wizards are just programmers having magic fights across the internet
>>47482695
Hey, you might be right but here is the key thing. No one cares. Watching Daffy Duck be THE WIZARD is fucking awesome but not everyone want to rock the bath robe.
Also remember, at low levels. You're racing toward becoming useless Mr "I'm out of spell slots, tired, and there is mud on my robe. Can we please rest for 8 hours."
>>47482582
>A Mage being human or not has not basis on the fact that their purview includes "guy who makes reality his bitch."
It kind of does, at least outside of D&D. Being able to bend the laws of universe and make them your bitch was reserved for gods, spirits, their agents, and those that petitioned them (with lots of strings attached).
And there were a few mortals that outdid the occasional supernatural entity at whatever it was that mortal was good at (awesome strength, weaving, being damn handsome, singing, etc).
Mere mortals turning invisible, flying around, and shooting lasers from their fingers, though? Simply because they read a book? No deals with the supernatural at all? No supernatural blood?
That's D&D for ya.
>>47482768
>Watching Daffy Duck be THE WIZARD is fucking awesome but not everyone want to rock the bath robe.
Who fucking cares how you look when you can make motherfuckers explode or be set on fire?
That's a weakass fucking excuse martialfag, especially when you're walking around in polished metal that won't even protect you from cantrips.
>Also remember, at low levels. You're racing toward becoming useless Mr "I'm out of spell slots, tired, and there is mud on my robe. Can we please rest for 8 hours."
Wizards never stop being useful, even at low levels.
You have a spell like magic missile that will guarentee hit for 1d4+1 damage, you got shit like sleep and color spray that will take out enemies in an AoE, and you have shit like mage hand or tenzer's floating disc that's just useful utility in general.
Even then, once you've hit level 5, you're pretty much golden.
>>47482782
>And there were a few mortals that outdid the occasional supernatural entity at whatever it was that mortal was good at
Then they were cursed for all of eternity for daring to be better than the gods or were cheated because the gods were petty and abhorrent individuals.
>>47482858
Except for when they weren't. Beowulf didn't get fucked by any gods. Orpheus did himself in by breaking the binding agreement he set down with the gods.
And while Patroclus was eventually taken down, it required a god and several other demigods to do it, and this was after he had already slain several OTHER demigods and a good chunk of the Trojan army. And he was pure mortal.
And don't even get me started on West African tales, which has lots of heroes who are just plain badass. Ironically enough, it's one of the few places where you'll also find people in stories who can work magic without having to be the relative of a deity or personally invoke their aid/power because the world is just that fucking awesome a place and "magic" is just the world at work.
>>47477049
If by "encounter and capture" you mean steal it from scrolls, enemy spellbooks or the like, this is how magic in D&D was originally intended to work. Spellcasters started with a pittance of random spells, and didn't gain new spells automatically upon level up. Spells needed to be pilfered from scrolls of a spell or by copying it from another persons spellbook.
I also believe there was a random roll based on your INT statistic that was rolled upon the discovery of every spell to see if you could ever learn it, and if you failed that roll, that spell was forever not available to your character, but people rarely used that if ever.
>>47483172
I've seen that rule be used with the addendum that you can try again after leveling up. Of course, you could just fail again, since you never, ever got stat boosts from leveling up.
>reduce wizard power
>force the game to revolve around wizards
Good job.
>>47483408
We have already learned that OPs idea would not normally work. If every class had a bit of that blue mage magic in them we could have something.
>Wizard duels become risky because showing off your best spells could mean your foe learning them
And this is when wizards learn how to properly Old Wise Fuck
>"I could fight the cunt but even if I win a good chunk of this planet would be magical wasteland. Time for the long con."
>Spy on the other wizard
>Work on creating anti-magic armor and weapons
>Become a founder of a school or two to create heroes
Does the martials = mundane guy consider super heroes magic as well?
>>47483408
Not anymore than it revolves around gathering magic items for martials.
>>47483788
Not that fag but odds are he would call it the magic of money or say capeshit don't count
>>47483789
Except you don't really go out and look for specific items, you just collect them as a side benefit of adventuring, maybe going on an artifact hunt once in a while.
The Wizard would have to go out and try to find each and every spell just to use his class features, you can't really compare the two at all.
>>47483839
A Fighter without his magic items is on the same level as a Wizard without his spellbooks.
>>47483839
You kind of can. In order for a martial to use his class feature to the same limit that wizards want to they would need to hunt a decent weapon of every weapon type they can wield.
>You want the Holy Avenger? Quest time
>You want "Summon Big Titty Succubus"? Quest time
A decent GM makes sure that casters don't get free OP shit and the martials get treated the same. You're an adventurer, if you really want something, it should be an adventure to get.
>>47483887
The point I'm making is, the fighter might go on that quest for the holy avenger, but he only has to do that once. The wizard will be making a quest like that every time he wants to learn a spell
>>47483906
It does sort of prioritize spells that are already too good, too. Sure, you could go on a quest to learn how to throw natural disasters at people, or you could cast Summon Nature's Ally, which Druids get for free.
>>47483906
You can learn spells from other wizards, so you might do one quest in order to learn a bunch of spells. Only the very upper echelon of spells would need special quests and those could very well lead to benefits to everyone,
>>47483906
Again, I said free OP shit. A five session quest for CLW should get someone slapped.
Rule of thumb
>If the spell makes your dick hard you should have to quest for it.
>If the spell can wipe out a town in one casting you should have to quest for it
>Save or die? Questing time
>Turns a dungeon into a cakewalk? Get already to enter a hard dungeon to find it
>You head to a city known for powerful wizards and enter a random shop asking for a very very very powerful spell? Guess what? The magical ATF wants to talk to you...ie quest
>>47477049
I would suggest making mana a more difficult to get
>The only way to regain mana is by drinking potions, herbs or sitting for about a week in a area with a high concentration of mana
>Also if you have too much mana in your body you have i high chance of suffering radiation like mutations but much worse also if you have too much mana in your body you will start bleeding it off
>All spells cost to cast is much higher making those higher ranked spells almost impossible to cast due too mutation and how difficult it is too get enough mana to cast it
While you can still cast those big and powerful spells its something that must be planned ahead of time and carefully or else you will ether bleed it all out or find your blood suddenly turned to acid
>>47479227
Because all magic is supernatural but not everything supernatural is magic. It's a difference in classification and the fundamental mechanics that is generally covered in game mechanics and fluff.
>>47477049
D
O
T
System
>>47482582
>A Mage being human or not has not basis on the fact that their purview includes "guy who makes reality his bitch."
But it does, because no normal human in actual myth or classical fantasy has ever "made reality his bitch". All the strongest mages were either Demigods or had the blood of fay or demons and even so very few of them had power to do anything significant without spending days on elaborate rituals. The best regular human mages could ever do without borrowing the powers of higher beings was cast hexes, blessings and maybe enchantments.
>>47479152
>I mean, magically taking half damage from piercing damage and magically learning how to drain levels and shit sounds no different than learning spells.
Think of it like animal-based kung-fu. The fighters learn from their opponents and imitate their abilities to achieve similar effects.
>>47481917
>Merlin
>was gods
He was a half-incubus.
>>47484705
Is that why he was always fucking bitches?
That always seemed strange to me about him, but I guess it all makes sense now.
>>47479017
>So wizards can cast spells and fighters can hit things?
Yes anon. That's how it's always worked. If you think wizards are so cool why not roll one?
>>47480126
>The point I was trying to make is, why pretend that the magical effect you gain isn't magical in nature?
And what if it IS non-magical in nature?
What if a wizard can't dispel it because it's not magic? Why call it magic then?
You are assuming that every single supernatural thing must be magic. Rather than it being possible for there to be non-magical supernatural stuff.
>>47482196
You literally just proved him right what the fuck
Were you trying to argue against him?
>>47485214
Anything with significant reward requires a significant amount of risk as well.
Arrows don't bounce off of mirrors but Lightning bolt can bounce off of any solid object (in older editions of D&D at least).
The GM is letting you attempt your action so be happy that you can do that rather than going "abloo bloo, mages get everything handed to them."
>>47482430
>Light naturally bounces off of reflective surfaces
>reflect a lightning bolt
>reflect a light-ning bolt
>reflect a light bolt
>reflect a light
>a light
>light
>Reflect
>A
>Light
>Ning
>Bolt
>>47485256
>fucking martial scum, be happy I'm even letting you attempt a roll you piece of shit *spits at the player playing a martial*
>sorry about that, fire away glorious wizard and may your lightning pierce every enemy for free and win the encounter
>>47485348
see >>47482647
Arrows are designed to piece through objects and are too long to ricochet off of objects like a bullet could.
Lightning bolt was designed to bounce off of solid objects.
I don't know what to tell you man, you're getting penalties and disadvantages sure but you're also able to attempt the action in spite of how impossible it is.
What do you want, the GM to just let you do it in spite of every element in this plan telling you that it's not possible.
>>47485055
There are some spells that cannot in fact be dispelled by magic/spells.and supernatural entities always have ties to some sort of magical power.
Just bite the bullet and admit that it's magic, what do you have to prove? The thread's already derailed, nobody will hear you.
>>47485512
> supernatural entities always have ties to some sort of magical power.
Oh? Even the Psionic ones?
Is Superman Magic? Or Spiderman?
>>47485567
Psychic, Supernatural, Extraordinary, etc. might as well just be called "magical" for the purposes of what they allow someone to do.
Psionics cast "spells" using mental prowess as opposed to spellbooks and wands. Superman is a being who is capable of becoming a god and lifting infinity (twice). Spiderman, during one part of the comic IIRC, was in fact revealed to have some roots in magical power.
The only difference between "extraordinary," "psychic," "technology," and any of the other bullshit that people spout as being not!Magic is that mages are honest enough to call it as it is, rather than pretending that it's not and getting defensive when people call them out on it.
I mean, what's the difference between a fire spell, a machine that converts air friction into fire, pyrokinesis, etc. when the basic effect is "make fire from nothing?"
>>47485652
>Technology is magic.
...so a character with a gun is magical? Or a guy with a large sword as he uses the power of a lever to enhance his swings?
>>47485652
>what's the difference between a fire spell, a machine that converts air friction into fire, pyrokinesis, etc
one is magic
one is science
one is psionics
They all produce fire, but the method used to produce it is different. That's why they're referred to as different things.
No matter much you want to call everything in the world "magic" nobody else is going to, retarded juggalo.
>>47485652
Of course, a flamethrower is the same thing as a magical spell. I never realized it before!
>>47485724
Fucking Magnets. Clearly magic.
>>47485670
>>47485725
If you tried explaining the concept of the internet to some hick from the 19th century, you'd be branded as a heretic and burned at the stake for witchcraft.
With technology, a 5'0" nothing could lift a fridge, fly to another continent, cure food that would've poisoned his ancestors, and access the bulk of information using a device that fits in your pocket.
Hell, to some tribesman, the concept of a shaft that shoots fire and kills people from several feet away might as well be fucking magic.
>>47485724
Yet they're all means that allows a creature to achieve an effect that would normally be impossible for them to perform.
It's dishonest to claim "oh, my fighter can lift a boulder the size of a truck and run for hours on end but he's still a normal guy just like you."
I mean, any sufficiently advanced form of technology is indistinguishable from magic and psychic power is just magic that you can do because your mind allows you to.
>>47485724
Explain the difference between a 3e Sorcerer and a psychic.
Because they're both things that allow the user to perform a magical power innately without having to spend years of his time studying from a book.
>>47485875
No, he's not Joe Everyman, you fuckwit. Neither is the Wizard, for that matter. They're heroes.
>>47485926
That's why they're heroes in the first place, they have magic to aid them in overcoming the forces of evil.
If they didn't have magical power, they wouldn't be heroes.
>>47485875
>It's dishonest to claim "oh, my fighter can lift a boulder the size of a truck and run for hours on end but he's still a normal guy just like you."
So again, a guy with a sword or hammer is using magic because he's using a lever to enhance the power of his swings?
Or that strange device called a 'Bow' that allows him to kill from beyond arms reach?
>>47477049
That fits in well with the actual Vancian magic from Dying Earth.
Spells are in some ways like wild beasts there, with their own will and struggling to get out of the wizard's mind, which was the reason one forgot the spell.
>>47485893
A sorcerer has supernatural power in his blood from his ancestors, like so many mythological character.
A psychic either has a mutation of the brain that gives them the potential to cause anomalous effects by focusing their brainpower, or they've received training that allows them to focus their brainpower in ways a usual member of their species can't. And yes, some psychics require training. I only need point as recently as the XCOM reboot.
>>47485968
No, he's using magic because he's able to cleave through a man, his friend, both their armors, and the horse they rode in on in one swing, survive a falll from terminal velocity without being irreparably injured, and carry hundreds of pounds over long distances and not get winded.
Also, I'm pretty sure the guy who figured out how to shoot long shafts of wood and feather across a battlefield without even being seen would look like a fucking wizard since they can effectively rain death without even being seen or heard.
>>47486038
>Also, I'm pretty sure the guy who figured out how to shoot long shafts of wood and feather across a battlefield without even being seen would look like a fucking wizard since they can effectively rain death without even being seen or heard.
He's not, however, using magic.
>>47485990
Alternatively, a sorcerer and a psychic are the same thing and the only reason why there's a split is because medieval society wasn't aware of mutations and thought that medical deformities were curses.
,
>>47485347
>Light I got is electricity
>Electricity can be reflected off of glass
Nigger you dumb as shit.
>>47486081
To someone who doesn't know better, he might as well be.
>>47486038
>No, he's using magic because he's able to cleave through a man, his friend, both their armors, and the horse they rode in on in one swing, survive a falll from terminal velocity without being irreparably injured, and carry hundreds of pounds over long distances and not get winded.
And yet a man with a flamethrower IS using magic?
>>47486109
I'm not talking about common people's perceptions, fucker. I'm talking about actual scientific classification of the two. If they're actually the same thing, I'm going to just use one term to describe it.
A sailboat isn't a steamboat just because they can both move on water in some way, and if you called a sailboat a steamboat because "a steamboat floats on water, this thing floats on water, therefore this thing is a steamboat because hurr durr who needs meaningful systems of classification" I'd call you an ignorant fucker.
>>47486157
And? How does that matter?
That doesn't change what it actually is. Or else discovery would never happen as everything about be what people think it is.
>>47486150
Or even better "a bird and a hot air balloon are the same thing because they can both fly". Not only do they not use the same method to acheive lift, but one's also alive while the other is not alive and is man-made.
>>47486150
They are however boats that are designed to carry you across long distance over water.
The methods and design are different but the end result is the same.
I like how everyone ignores that if wizards had to "capture and learn" the spells, that would give them basically an equilavent of their own little story arcs. Other players either have to drag along or wait until the wizard player stops their own scenario. That would be fucking terrible experience to play.
>>47477049
It could work in the same way that Kimahri's Overdrive works in Final Fantasy X , When you encounter someone who can use it you siphon some of their power and gain the ability to use it
>>47486168
>everything about be what people think it is.
Did you have a stroke towards the end there?
>>47486175
So are you actually saying that classifying things is meaningless
>>47486174
Actually, both are something that use hot air to achieve lift and air currents to travel across long horizontal distances
>>47486200
Yes, because in the end, they all fit under the same umbrella term and can easily be mutable between one another.
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet, so why argue semantics against a rose that's red and a rose that's white?
>>47486175
Therefore they must both be magical in nature!
>>47486177
As with many things meant to "balance casters," it's shit and only makes the game more tedious for the casters and even more unfun for the martials.
Nobody wins.
Pretty much yeah. So your level 1 wizard doesn't have sleep, color spray, prestidigitation, and magic missile to begin with.
>>47486287
They may not be magical but they're still boats.
>>47486256
>A rose by any other name would smell as sweet, so why argue semantics against a rose that's red and a rose that's white?
Because you are saying that all flowers are roses. Someone brings a lily you say 'No, that's just a rose'. An orchid? Just a rose with a different flavor.
Magic is one aspect of supernatural power but it's not the entirety of it.
>>47486450
Actually, I'm saying that roses are a type of flower and any differential qualities that separates it from an orchid or a tulip does not make it any less of a flower.
Or that flowers are somehow different from other plants because they smell pretty and we arrange them into bouquets.
>>47486578
The issue here is that other people don't agree that 'Everything supernatural must be magic'.
They see 'Magic' as a subtype of 'Supernatural'. Rather than 'Supernatural' as a subtype of 'Magic'.
>>47486603
Well they're usually the same people who want to break the sound barrier with a hard clap yet balk at the notion of allowing shit like "tome of battle" or "book of 9 swords" because it's "weaboo fightan magic."
Honestly, if people didn't get hung up on outdoing mages and just accepted that magical power is what separates the average joe from the heroes, then we'd probably be able to make a lot more progress in terms of actually fixing 3e's busted ass rules and obtuse errata.
>>47486693
Alternatively, if people stopped being hung up on 'All supernatural stuff must be magic' we'd be able to get about fixing stuff without people going 'No, the fighter is now using magic, RRREEEE'
Yes, the fighter can do stuff that's physically impossible for an IRL human. A troll can also regenerate twice it's body mass in 10 mins and no one calls bullshit on that as 'Must be magic'
>>47486705
>Alternatively, if people stopped being hung up on 'All supernatural stuff must be magic' we'd be able to get about fixing stuff without people going 'No, the fighter is now using magic, RRREEEE'
So you agree?
Because honestly, martialfags are the ones who are the most defensive about shit like this.
>A troll can also regenerate twice it's body mass in 10 mins and no one calls bullshit on that as 'Must be magic'
Because the troll is a magical creature.
It can regenerate from any wound, is over 8 feet tall, capable of swinging a tree like most men can swing clubs, and is critically weak to fire.
Hell, I'm pretty sure that you can cut off its head and it won't even kill it permanently.
>>47486784
The troll main body would grow a head instead, the other head remaining in a suspended state until destroyed or until pic related to the rest of the body.
>>47486784
>Because honestly, martialfags are the ones who are the most defensive about shit like this.
I find it the other way. The moment you give a fighter something beyond 'Hits stuff with a sword' you get people crawling out of the woodwork going 'No, how can this guy use martial abilities to match up to a wizard, this is bullshit!'
Which is kinda hilarious with BO9S...as it didn't really GIVE fighters anything but 'Hit stuff with a sword' unless you used the supernatural disciplines. It added more granularity to melee fighting with such amazing abilities as 'Parrying' and 'Moving fast AND attacking more than once'
>Because the troll is a magical creature.
It's regeneration is Extraordinary, not even Supernatural let alone Spell-Like.
>>47486784
>Because honestly, martialfags are the ones who are the most defensive about shit like this.
I think the issue is people coming and saying 'See that thing you do, it's a spell' when stuff is expressly not spells (Bo9S, 4e) the moment a martial character gets anything shiny.
People would like to be able to enjoy their fancy abilities in peace without being told 'You are doing something odd, that means you are actually a spellcaster'
>>47486880
>I find it the other way. The moment you give a fighter something beyond 'Hits stuff with a sword' you get people crawling out of the woodwork going 'No, how can this guy use martial abilities to match up to a wizard, this is bullshit!'
Why would a mage give a shit about whether a martial can do something besides "hit stuff with sword" and shit?
The only time people really look at your sideways is when you do shit like "I allow fighters to jump 20 ft. high and rangers to shoot at trolls shooting from a cave while climbing up a steep cliff" and try to play it off as "evening the playing field."
>It's regeneration is Extraordinary, not even Supernatural let alone Spell-Like.
Tomato, To-mah-to.
Still magical.
>>47486952
>Tomato, To-mah-to.
>Still magical.
See, this is the issue. The game expressly says that Extraordinary stuff is NOT magical but people keep going 'no, that extraordinary ability to do a thing is magical despite the game saying otherwise'.
This is what pisses people who want martials to do nice things off. When people assume magic when there is expressly none just because it's a nice thing.
>>47486910
Why do they give a shit?
No seriously, why do they get so angry when people say "oh, you're using some form of martial magic, that makes sense."
I mean, is it really so hard to accept that you're using some flavor of magic to do something cool? Is it truly blasphemous to accept that magic is what separates the lions from the Nemean Lions?
>>47487026
>No seriously, why do they get so angry when people say "oh, you're using some form of martial magic, that makes sense."
Because they are not using magic.
It's walking up to two people, one painting in red and one painting in blue and going 'Wow, that's nice red paint you are using'.
>Is it truly blasphemous to accept that magic is what separates the lions from the Nemean Lions?
Is it blasphemous to accept that people can be the Nemean lion without the magic?
>>47486880
Arbitrary line drawing a bit man.
A Troll's regeneration may be fluffed as metabolic, but it's still above and beyond the parameters of any known real creature.
This could be put down to the innately different nature of the world; fantasy, which whilst not entirely synonymous with "magic" in the D&D mechanical spellcasting sense, is still synonymous with "magic" in the sense of the unreal as real.
In that sense a lone naked warrior holding a gate against a thousand enemies with just the skill of his sword arm is just as magical as a man who trans-substantiates food from thin air, or conjures a demon.
This is why I like Rune Quest's Glorantha setting; everything and everyone is innately magical, and has at least theoretical access to certain basic rituals, so even a "Warrior" ( though the system is truly classless) might possess some form of supernatural talents, likely things that would be useful to a warrior, like flight or the ability to throw lightning, or kill with the merest touch, magical specialists like "Wizards" and "Shamans" do exist, but are just that; specialists, like how a common man might have some basic carpentry abilities, but a carpenter is an expert.
>>47487066
>Arbitrary line drawing a bit man.
Not really, not when the game expressly covers what is and isn't magic.
>>47486978
Seriously, who cares?
it's certainly not normal and it's definitely not something that could happen naturally.
For christ sake, most monsters in the MM are creatures that have either been created by magic, bolstered through the aid of magic, or are magical in and of itself yet you're going to argue semantics because you want to be a special snowflake and make the mages cry?
>>47487100
>Seriously, who cares?
People who like the correct classification of things.
If something isn't magic, don't call it magic.
>>47487100
>Seriously, who cares?
Evidently you do if you keep trying to tell people what is and isn't magic rather than letting them decide for themselves.
If someone wants to say it's not magic, why do you feel the need to say 'no, it is magic'
>>47487098
Beetles and Boxes.
There's Magic and Magic.
Magic as a game mechanic is not the same as magic; that which we do not understand and fills us with child-like wonder.
>>47487045
>Because they are not using magic.
Yes they are.
>It's walking up to two people, one painting in red and one painting in blue and going 'Wow, that's nice red paint you are using'.
Actually, it's like having a dude painting a house black and having him scream at you because you called black a color.
>Is it blasphemous to accept that people can be the Nemean lion without the magic?
Yes, because then they'd be peasants rather than heroes.
You don't see stories being made chronicling the adventures of "background character #351" as he pays his bills and goes out grocery shopping.
>>47487152
>Actually, it's like having a dude painting a house black and having him scream at you because you called black a color.
So...technically correct in that it's not magic?
>Yes, because then they'd be peasants rather than heroes.
No, they'd still be a hero. Just one without magic.
Or was every member of the Round Table a secret magician?
>>47487098
the game also isn't known for its accuracy and usually contradicts itself throughout the game.
>>47487184
Ok, so where does it say that it is magic?
>>47487121
It is magical, a different type of magic but magic nonetheless.
>>47487137
Because you shouldn't condone bad habits, especially when the argument boils down to "I want to be special without actually being special."
>>47487202
>It is magical, a different type of magic but magic nonetheless.
Except it's not. It's expressly not magic. It's extraordinary but non-magical.
>>47487202
>Because you shouldn't condone bad habits, especially when the argument boils down to "I want to be special without actually being special."
Bad habits like 'Having fun in a game without being a wizard?'
>>47487202
>especially when the argument boils down to "I want to be special without actually being special."
Why is magic needed to be special?
>>47487170
>So...technically correct in that it's not magic?
More like it's magic but people will still argue how it's somehow not anyways.
On a box of crayons, you don't see "seven colors and black," you see "8 colors."
Most people accept this but you'll still see people frothing at the mouth because they can't accept that black is still labeled as a color.
>No, they'd still be a hero. Just one without magic.
Sure, pal.
>Or was every member of the Round Table a secret magician?
Didn't King Arthur wield a magic sword and a scabbard that made him invincible while being advised by a half-incubus warlock?
>>47487191
Regeneration being labeled an (Ex) ability yet it's also listed as a spell that any mage can learn and is also a magical ring is a good example.
>>47487276
The knights of the round table all had fantastic powers. Two of them were explicitly sorcerers, but most of them could just do things like turn into a giant or shoot fire.
>>47487276
>More like it's magic but people will still argue how it's somehow not anyways.
>On a box of crayons, you don't see "seven colors and black," you see "8 colors."
>Most people accept this but you'll still see people frothing at the mouth because they can't accept that black is still labeled as a color.
That analogy is backwards. Because in that case the people frothing are correct. The labeling is incorrect. It's pedantic but correct.
>Didn't King Arthur wield a magic sword and a scabbard that made him invincible while being advised by a half-incubus warlock?
That's one member. The others?
>>47487299
So? Non-magic and magic can produce similar effects. That doesn't mean that the non-magical version is automatically magical.
>>47487302
Some where but not all.
>>47487299
That's not saying that it's magical. That's saying that there is multiple sources of it.
Or is everything that makes fire magical?
>>47487321
I think the most mundane member was a guy who was insanely durable. As in he has a story about a slug match he has where the two of them are standing in around swinging away, blood and gore flying off in sheets, for hours. It's pretty fantastic, but people might not call it magic.
>>47482237
>Even Batman is only able to keep up with the other Justice Leaguers because he has the resources to and even then, it's not so much keeping up as knowing enough about them to disable them if they ever go rogue.
most justice league members are way more powerful than any D&D character short of pun-pun style exploits. batman competes evenly with a lot of superhumans that aren't planet-smashers.
however, batman - like many "martial" characters in fiction who are expected to fight superhuman threats on a regular basis - is essentially an ubermensch. he is good at everything that a mortal man can be good at, often somewhat better than a realistic human. in D&D terms, all his stats are 20, and he has all the skillfullness and stealth of a level 20 rogue plus the fighting ability and toughness of a level 20 fighter.
if the goal is to boost martials without giving them superhuman abilities, there are a lot of things you can do which D&D refuses. first and foremost would be making a batman or conan style class that doesn't have to compromise between utility and combat, doesn't compromise between mental stats or physical stats and doesn't choose between dexterity or strength. which might sound overpowered until you realise it's the tradeoff for being a normal human in a world full of monsters and magicians. in some ways, it's not all that different from the way the wizard is already designed, free to pick from a mix of options that let them dominate in both utility and combat.
however, if you continue to have a dedicated, niche fighter class that only does fighting and nothing else (and even then is probably specialised in a particular kind of fighting, like being DEX or STR focused), then you eventually run out of things to do with the class except making it superhuman. that's specialization. so instead of martials as batman you get wonder woman, because if you're only good at one thing you need to be stupidly good at it.
>>47487209
>Except it's not. It's expressly not magic. It's extraordinary but non-magical.
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck, it doesn't make it somehow not a duck just because people call it a waterfowl instead.
>>47487223
Bad habits like "martials can only swing swords because they can never have any magical power and anything that allows them to be magical is weaboo fightan magic."
Most games nowadays actually mix the two together and most people won't give a shit because the game doesn't try to make a distinction between the various forms of magics available.
>>47487244
>Why is magic needed to be special?
Because without magic, you're just a nobody in a world of dragons and liches.
There's a reason why nobody keeps their normal non-magical sword once they've uncovered their first +1 weapon.
Dire Wolves are more dangerous than wolves, Nemean Lions are more dangerous than lions, and a dude who can chuck boulders has a greater chance of survival than the guy who does nothing but till the earth and throw chickens at you.
Magic>Mundane
>>47482217
Strago has to actually get hit with a spell before he can cast it. Just being in combat isn't enough.
>>47487309
>That analogy is backwards. Because in that case the people frothing are correct. The labeling is incorrect. It's pedantic but correct.
Yet people will still call black a color, accept that black is a color, and refer to black as a color for the purposes of labeling.
>That's one member. The others?
see the following.
>>47487302
>>47487342
>>47487335
>>47487321
Most creatures with regeneration are magical creatures in some way, shape, or form.
>>47487446
>If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck, it doesn't make it somehow not a duck just because people call it a waterfowl instead.
...what if it's a guy who naturally waddles, has a duck-call and is wearing an enormous papier mâché duck costume? Then it would look, walk and quack like a duck and still not be a duck.
>>47487596
We call those "furries" anon.
>>47484705
He was still a pretty bad mother fucker for the setting
