Gone But Not Forgotten Edition
Discuss the lore and mechanics of the Warcraft setting in relation to tabletop gaming
Previous thread: >>47347175
>>47396730
>Arthas is a huge dick when his servants fail, but he usually praises the ones that do well
one of the things I really like in Warcraft is how very few of the villains are pointlessly evil. Even the ones that get lolcorrupted generally act in entirely reasonable ways, and even the greatest villains in the universe mostly show loyalty to their underlings
So since all the Burning Legion is showing up, any demons you'd like to see again?
I'd like to see the return of those two bosses in Arcatraz, the Wrath-Scryer Soccothrates and Dalliah the Doomsayer this time teamed up.
>>47398103
Well, we know the Eredar Twins from Sunwell Plateau are coming backas the warlock's base minions.
>>47398103
Socrethar in his not-Dragoon suit
>>47398128
So, the twin eredar. I remember there being a theory about them and AU draenor.
When they announced Yrel, and hell it's still on the site today, "But Yrel carried a dark secret within her. Velen sensed it, and he foresaw that for good or ill, she had a larger role to play."
The rumor was she was a relative of Kil'jaden/Archimonde, and that she and Samara were trying to be better than their relatives. Some people theorized that they were the twin Eredar in our Universe. That they weren't given the chance to be swept away with Velen, but instead became terrible monsters of demons. And now that they're coming back, I wonder if we'll get some more story of exactly who they "were."
>>47396899
Except, you know, when Arthas sent a group of his best Death Knights to Light's Hope Chapel knowing full well they were going to die.
>>47398429
anything involving Tirion doesn't count because he bends the universe around him so that he's always 100% right and unbeatable
>>47398429
>knowing full well they were going to die
And then almost no one died, not even the guy with an out of control weapon, Arthas arrived to save the day before anyone could be executed, and the few who remained loyal were going to get a saronite necropolis.
Yes, in that case Arthas talks like a backstabbing douche that really wanted his own troops to die, but his actions in the rest of the expansion don't line up with that. He doesn't care if they fail and someone stronger kills them, because that just means a stronger minion later on, but Light's Hope is the only time he just treats his minions like dirt even though they fulfilled every expectation EXCEPT failure.
They were trying to give DKs a motive to turn on Arthas besides just being freed and it fell flat.
>>47398900
Yeah I didn't get it either. Arthas was very out of character at the end of that quest.
>>47399536
>>47398900
I've made like 3 death knights and I stilled don't know what the fuck is supposed to be happening in the last quest. It literally makes no sense at all and you can tell it's supposed to be a reason for the Ebin :-DDD Blade to betray Arthas AND for Tirion to get the Ashbringer at the same time, and they couldn't put them together in a way that actually makes sense
>>47399536
It doesn't help that the scourge is generally very friendly in the quests where you're on their side. I felt bad sabotaging Drakuru.
>>47399893
Drakuru was making power plays everywhere, and he saw you as just another underling. He was extremely proud of the fact that he tricked you into releasing him in Grizzly Hills.
>>47399926
Drakuru actually wanted you to join him the whole time and saw you as an ally. From the quest disclosure:
Ya doin' well, <name>.
You be provin' dat I got an eye for talent! Now ya see why da Lich King gave me his blessing....
Da time has come for me to reveal my master plan to ya, mon.
Now you be seein' how we gunna sweep through da swarms of Drakkari trolls to take our rightful place in da great palace of Gundrak.
Take dis scepter, mon. It be a token of my trust in ya. With it, you be able ta access my upper chamber and witness for yourself our secret weapons.
On completion:
So, there a have it, mon.
We be makin' da ultimate scourge army ta serve da Lich King. He gunna be most pleased!
You keep da scepter, <name>. You gunna be needin' it ta command my army in battle....
Soon!
When you fight as part of the quest Betrayal:
Overlord Drakuru yells: Your betrayal not gunna be slowin' me down none, mon.
Overlord Drakuru yells: Ya done turned your back on destiny, mon. Now you gonna die!
Overlord Drakuru yells: I never needed ya, mon. I can crush Zul'Drak without ya!
Overlord Drakuru yells: Fool! Ya coulda been havin' great power, mon!
Overlord Drakuru yells: How could dis be? Da Lich King said he be havin' great plans for you, mon...
Overlord Drakuru yells: I shoulda known not to be trustin' nobody!
>>47399926
>>47400223
Heck, he even apologizes for tricking you in Drak'tharon keep
Drakuru says: Forgive my deception, mon. It all been for your own good.
Drakuru says: Ya needed ta prove yer worthiness....
Drakuru says: I be needin' worthy underlings in Zul'Drak, mon. Ones ready to wield real power.
Drakuru says: You see for yourself now. Da Lich King be generous to dem who obey.
Drakuru says: Follow dis path, mon, and soon you be tastin' immortality!
>>47399622
So, logically what should have happened?
>>47401135
the entire storyline shouldn't have happened and a completely different character should have lux ex machinaed Arthas to death
>>47401299
Can't wait for tyrone to lecture the ebin blade.
>>47398256
Except main universe Samara and Yrel are probably bones on the Path of Conquest. Why would they have survived long enough to become Eredar? Plus, you know, the Eredar Twins have names, Alythess and Sacrolash.
Also Samara and yrel ARE NOT TWINS.
>>47402507
>Plus, you know, the Eredar Twins have names, Alythess and Sacrolash.
Socrethar was named Othaar until he turned into an eredar. Not defending the rest of his argument, but it's not unfeasible they would change they're name
>>47398475
Pre- and post-Wrath Tirion might as well be entirely different characters. Pre-Wrath Tirion defined the paladin virtue of humility, his character-defining act was to sacrifice his rank and reputation to save the life of an old orc. Post-Wrath Tirion is a pompous windbag completely up his own ass. He has all the depth of a 40k space marine, and Ashbringer ending up in his hands turned it from a symbol of the Scarlet Crusade's fallen glory into just "the holiest sword".
>>47402507
I don't think the Eredar Twins are actually implied to be twins, or even related. They certainly don't look very similar. It's just the name players called them.
>>47403828
so, them lezzing out would totally be appropriate right?
>>47403225
eh, Ashbringer was really never meant to be wielded by the players
>>47405090
Honestly, I'm not sure Ashbringer should ever have been cleansed. Without the tragedy it's just yet another super-sword among many in the setting.
But yeah, the artifact weapons are stupid.
>>47405332
I liked the story behind the sword far better.
However the mage quest where you get agewynn's staff is pretty amazing
>>47405332
"the Ashbringer was a mistake"
-Muradin Bronzebeard
>>47405755
magni made it.
he made it because muradin was dead
as it turned out, he wasn't dead.
it killed the ashbringer
![Thor5[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/Vdrv3Wx.jpg "Thor5[1].jpg")
>>47405626
>>47405755
You know what the Ashbringer artifact quest (and some other artifact quests) and the PC worship in Legion reminds me of? FemThor. Same kind of forced character "retirements" and shilling.
>>47405332
No shit they are stupid. Just look at the bdk's AW' quest:
>so you kinda need a weapon, but because all the cool shit was taken, we've figured that you could take that demon's axe.
>bdk and a fireteam of other dks go to the demon world or some shit like that
>kill a small army of demons and some BL general or something
>all this shit for a fucking axe
>bdk literally kills a small army of demons for a fucking axe
And so the game tells me, that killing those chucklefucks without an artifact weapon is fine, but to kill other demon shits I need some demonic axe and my normal weapon won't cut it? Really?
>>47405897
it is blizzard's ace in the hole now.
WoD burned them pretty bad. Nostalrius and the like ended making blizzard look like monkeys that twirl mustaches.
Metzen is pretty blatant he gets all his ideas from comic books. Since they are dogshit, wow follows
>>47406051
>Nostalrius and the like ended making blizzard look like monkeys that twirl mustaches.
Nobody talks about Nostalrius anymore. Much ado about fucking nothing.
>>47406051
>nostalrius
Who?
>>47405090
It probably was at some point, considering there were multiple hints about acquiring it (the highborne prince in Dire Maul library was mentioned to know what happened to it, and might share the tale with somebody who defeated Nefarian, who at that point was not yet added as a boss), and datamining revealing a statted out version (which was pretty weak for a legendary, actually). They seemed to have dropped the plan pretty early on, although the corrupted Ashbringer "cutscene" implied that the brother of the person who forged the blade was part of the Alliance expedition to Draenor, and if still alive, could forge a new one (it's commonly believed that he's that one guy living in a small camp near the edge of Terokkar, who has a long questline about forging a demon-slaying sword).
>>47406229
>>47406253
eh, it was bad press for blizzard.
>inb4 no press is bad press
So why does everyone seem to hate Tirion?
So, if Ashbringer had to be involved in Wrath's plotline the way it was, who would have been a better fit than Tirion?
I think Liadrin would have worked well. She has just as much reason to hate the LK, and the sunwell would be a good explanation for both the jump in powerlevels and purifying the sword.
Then you could ditch the silly instapurification and suicide mission plots. Instead of Ashbringer alone driving him off and making him look like a bitch, it could be an ambush. It wouldn't be hard to predict the attack on the chapel when the scourge is going nuts on scarlets just over the hill, so when Arthas arrives he finds out they called for help and gets gangbanged by an army of paladins, blood knights led by Liadrin, and forsaken armed with the plague led by Sylvanas/Putress, making his control lapse just enough for the DKs to join in and finally force him to retreat. That makes it a little horde-centric, but hey, the zone is sandwiched between horde capitals.
>>47406439
because he is a mary sue neutral who is the epitome of what is wrong with WoW.
>>47406492
I'd say orc Jesus is the epitome. Tirion was the worst at the time, but he was just a sign of things to come.
>>47406465
Now that I think about it, the alliance could join the ambush through Jaina and Dalaran. Have some mages if not the whole city teleport in and start nuking him.
>>47406492
>Bitching about "Neutrals"
Go the fuck to bed Kosak.
>>47406589
Orc jesus and Tirion are the same shade of shit. Thrall is laid on so thick that he has become a joke. Tirion is just grating.
>>47406589
I don't really think orc Jesus was a Mary Sue until Cataclysm.
You know, when he rose above the horde/alliance conflict because reasons then stole the deathwing kill from us.
Dragon Soul was a fucking awful raid, I think dragon soul more than anything else killed my faith in WoW
>>47406689
>hey guys we just defeated the scourge and made the world free of the horrors of necromancy and the scourge
>farms right next to hearthglen are blighted and the 4skin are becoming scourge 2.0
>he does nothing because muh neutrality
He is a shit, and him and varian dying are the best things in the expansion. Them and Suramar being fucking god tier.
>>47405911
Well these are people that raid the same dungeon over and over again to get a single piece of equipment. Maybe Blizzard's just being meta?
>>47406791
Stop blaming Kosak's waifu-driven shit writing on in-universe characters.
>>47406229
Blizzard actually is in discussion with the Devs of Nostralius, so they may be thinking about using then to create an official legacy server
>>47406439
Tirion in his original short story and in vanilla was great, but in those appearances he was just a humble nobody who stuck to his morals and tried to do right without grandstanding. Tirion in Wrath came out of nowhere as the biggest bestest paladin everest and acts like a standard stuffy archetype who constantly lectures everyone around him.
I don't really hate him, but now that it gets brought up in these threads and I start to actually think about it, his character story is a mess.
>>47405911
>>kill a small army of demons and some BL general or something
>>all this shit for a fucking axe
>>bdk literally kills a small army of demons for a fucking axe
as a death knight, I killed the entire leadership of the Iron Horde and multiple demon lords and Burning Legion cultists - multiple times - just for a hollowed out piece of animal horn that would let me kill them easier. That quest makes perfect sense
>>47406465
Your average Blood elf has more of a tie to Arthas than Tiron did pre-Battle of Lights Hope.
Liadrin would be a good wielder of Asbringer.
>>47406926
>blizzard
>being meta
>in a "you are the chosen one" story
>>47406989
>and acts like a standard stuffy archetype who constantly lectures everyone around him.
I don't remember any lecturing aside from telling that one Argent guy to stop trying to protect him by having him travel separately from the sword.
>>47407021
I read the filename in his voice.
>>47407004
Repeatedly killing bosses isn't canon, with a few exceptions like Whitemane or Kel'thuzad.
>>47407039
I might be remembering a bit harshly, but he does act noticably less humble during Wrath. He does get very up his own ass during the Trial of the Crusader, especially after the fights with the faction champions (which he allowed!) and Jaraxxus.
>>47407039
>>47407286
you forgot the fact when Thassarian tells him that sending forces through the entrance is a bad idea
he does it anyway
>>47407286
Ah, I was still barely above dungeoneering and absolutely despised ToC so I stayed away.
So yeah I have no idea how he acted then.
So where was Dalaran from wc3 attack until wrath? Were they hiding? Because i dont remember any mention of them until wrath. Lorthemars story has them mention dalaran post sunwell reignition, but its not a surprise that its around. In fact they have blood elf dignitaries there for years.
So was it just doing a Columbia and taking worthy mages while just floating around?
>>47407408
they were under a bubble rebuilding the city after the third time it got destroyed in 20 years, they decided to get their shit together and protect themselves
>>47407408
Dalaran didn't take to the air until Wrath.
>>47407442
>they were under a bubble rebuilding the city after the third time it got destroyed in 20 years, they decided to get their shit together and protect themselves
Uh, what? Dalaran was only ever sacked in WC3, the WC2 Orc campaign's final two levels are both noncanon, but the Dalaran attack is doubly so.
Is there any part of the lore that's worse than this Void Lord nonsense?
>>47407319
There was also the conversation he has with Darion at the entrance to Icecrown. The zone, not the citadel.
Tirion gets asshurt and threatens Darion when he points out how poorly the battle is going because of his morals.
>>47407618
Neutering and butchering the aspects, alternate timeline clusterfucks, there must always be a lich king, and general overuse of lolcorruption.
Med'an.
>>47407442
>>47407542
Huh, i thought the bubble was meant to be a leftover from their takeoff/teleportation to somewhere else. Like a huge distracrion. But if they were just there rebulding, thats pretty cool. Shows just how deeply archimonde gripped their shit.
>>47407618
Broxigar
>>47407618
the Bronze Dragonflight
>>47407618
Nothing that's quite as bad and far reaching at the same time.
>>47407824
He's literally just "Gotrek, but an Orc, and with a magic axe from a deity other than his race's own."
>>47407824
Fuck. Now I remember that shit. Thank you and fuck you.
>>47407618
Illidan's new story.
>>47407970
>He's literally just "Gotrek, but an Orc, and with a magic axe from a deity other than his race's own."
yes. don't you get the cancer?
>>47407618
Sylvanas dindu nutin. Illidan dindu nutin. Daelin dindu nutin. Any and all dindu nutin stories really.
>>47408037
Daelin was rayciss.
the former two were literal dindus.
>>47407618
All of Deathwing's storyline
Especially Dragon Soul, that shit was fucking retarded
>>47408049
The worst part is that Sylvanas was in the perfect position to be viably redeemed after WotLK
She had accomplished her revenge, and been deeply humbled by her own failures. She could have recognised the madness that had taken root in the Forsaken and made moves towards removing it.
Instead, she became the madness that had taken root in the forsaken, commiting the worst crime any forsaken can commit and conquering land she doesn't need solely to pad her own sense of security.
Sylvanas post-Wrath is fucking pathetic
>>47406439
He used to be pretty much the epitome of the virtues a paladin is supposed to represent. His character-defining act is saving the life of a former enemy, causing him to be exiled from his order, because he owed a dept of honor and knew that Eitrig wasn't a bad person (he's one of the older orcs who are actually deeply regretful of the shit theu did during the war). His sense of honor, justice, and compassion are what defined his character, not his fighting ability, and that's still how he mostly came across in vanilla.
Then in WotLK he became High Lord Super Holyman who smited all evil with his Super Holysword while holding pompous speeches.
>>47407883
I like the bronze dragons
>>47406721
Cata is the point where he dons the bathrobes and becomes Green Jesus. Before that, he was kind of a snowflake character, but not really a sue. He was just an orc who wanted his people to find a place in the world, and who preferred peaceful means over the standard "axes and fire" school of orcish diplomacy.
>red desert
>swamp
>woods
>mountain range
>evil volcano land
the landscape on either side of the Dark Portal is strikingly similar. If only Mulgore bordered Elwynn somehow, it'd all be there
>>47409071
their existence is highly damaging to the integrity of the setting. Time travel is always a bad idea, and the way it's implemented in WoW makes no fucking sense at all. How did killing Deathwing in the far future where he's already destroyed Azeroth save us now?
>>47411155
Huh? No, you go back and kill him in the present after killing Murzorond in the far future.
>>47406253
The single biggest private vanilla server. There was a big fuss kicked up when Blizzard shut them down.
>>47411155
They weren't damaging at first. The whole bronze vs infinite plot was a blatant excuse to let players see and participate in the events of past games, and it dodged the usual problems of time travel because the bronzes were against diverging from the "correct" timeline and you always stabbed the ones that wanted to.
Things got fucked up when they introduced multiverses. Before, the implication was that killing past Arthas means no more present Arthas, screwing up the singular timeline and probably ending badly. Now you've got the potential for out of control Marvel shenanigans where King Arthas teams up with redeemed Death Knight Arthas to save two Sylvanases from Lich Queen Jaina/Gul'dan while WoD Gul'dan tries to corrupt Peacechief Garrosh and his best friend Daelin is being told by MU Jaina that he's going to be nuked by elves living at the tip of EK, which has been a goblin theme park for centuries. And then evil Velen launches a MIRV full of frozen thrones.
>>47411205
then why do we need to go through the CoT to get to Wyrmrest?
>>47412358
Because they wanted to put it in the same place as the Well of Eternity and Wyrmrest future instance portals.
It's not like the CoT *CAN'T* take you somewhere in the present.
>>47412435
>It's not like the CoT *CAN'T* take you somewhere in the present.
just put every instance portal in the CoT then, cause it can take us anywhere
>>47413140
Caverns of Time was the staging point for the assault on Wyrmrest because the Bronze Dragonflight were one of the allied forces behind it.
There are Bronze Dragons and Dragonkin helping you in the instance.
>>47412358
>being this casual
Fucking MoPbabies
Illidan leading the 'army of light' is bullshit pandering.
>>47406439
He is now the Human version of Green Jesus.
>>47408101
Go back to your dead city, Lorna. Whine more.
>>47414909
Pandering implies there are people that actually wanted angelic Illidan.
>>47414909
There's only one kind of pandering I want from Illidan's return.
I miss Vol'jin already.
>>47414909
Behold the face of your new god.
>>47415135
>FEEL THE RADIENCE OF TEN
>THOUSAND
>YEARS
>>47414909
It's so weird, and seems to miss what people liked about Illidan.
>>47415016
no, the edgy version
>>47415396
>Tirion
>edgy
Huh? Does he go full coldsteel as a death knight? I figured he would be Zeliek 2.0.
>>47415428
That'sWhitemane'sjob. I have no idea what niche Tirion occupies, because the first two DKs are far more suited to being War.
>>47406465
>turning anything into another Horde lore story
wew
>>47415428
oops, wrong comment
The size of Stormwind in the movie trailer really triggers my autism.
The books paint this picture of it supposedly being the grandest human city. Something along the lines of being as far as the eye could see. Then in the trailer the city doesn't even look like it could house 30k.
I hope Blizzard someday at least states the size of zones and populations. Every author and Blizzard storyboard dev just pulls something new out the ass to fit the current narrative (A hippogriff rider in Wolfheart gets from eastern Ashenvale to Darnassus basically in a day etc.).
>>47415780
I thought lordaeron capital was bigger.
>>47415830
I could've sworn in The Last Guardian it was said Stormwind was as big.
>>47415995
the books are of dubious canonity.
>>47416081
pretty much this. they are largely dogshit and intended to be cash in to the blizzard audience. Look at warcrimes
>>47416081
every book is more canon than how the game describe the events.
>>47417439
The in-game shrunken world is garbage and if the books are dogshit what's left to go by?
>>47417675
the smaller flavor texts, quest chains and the likes, and then extrapolating from there.
>>47418284
The flavor texts are more often that not just meme jokes, while quests are afflicted by shrunken world syndrome or just shit in general (Westfall).
Drawing from quests is OK, but only to a point. Cheesy CSI shit and such is where you should draw the line.
>>47418461
>t. hello I started playing in cataclysm and only read the memes because reading regular unfamiliar fluff is too hard
>>47418651
at least half of the quests are filler meme shit that don't contribute to the world at all.
Which is still better than most MMOs on market today, but still upsetting.
>tfw you play through BC as an Alliance character for the first time and realize everyone in Honor Hold is old as fuck
Blizzard's attention to detail occasionally comes out quite nicely
>>47418824
yeah, old blizzard really loved their polish.
>>47418651
Are you saying there wasn't meme shit flavor text and quests in vanilla? Jesus Christ. It was far less pronounced but it's always been there. As of late it's only gotten worse. And no, I started in patch 1.9, not Cataclysm.
There's a difference between being occasionally goofy and downright pain to read dogshit.
>>47419089
>tfw Horde main and I never saw that stuff because all the connections to old Draenor were either Alliance or bad guys
>>47405897
That dialogue is terrible
>>47419911
comic books rarely are good.
>>47419911
You don't know the half of it. You missed the part where Titania KO'd her co-villain (the guy in the first panel) because of female solidarity. You also probably don't know that she's been a long-time villain to She-Hulk and that her schtick is picking fights with other female supers because she wants to be the strongest woman in the world.
>>47405911
I especially don't like that because it doesn't really fit with the blood "class fantasy". It's not like they had a small army of undead vampires in icecrown they could have used for the quest or anything...
Has there been any efforts to convert Warcraft to 4e D&D? People called it WoW-edition for so long you'd think it would actually work quite well.
>>47422059
Been working on that
Only doing races so far. Have most of the vanilla playable races, but I'm having trouble with trolls
![359617763[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/7tX0Ah3.jpg "359617763[1].jpg")
>>47422058
The mogu were also big into blood magic, so that's another alternative. Additionally, if they HAD to go with a demonic weapon, wouldn't it have been closer to theme if the owner was a nathrezim?
Plus, axes don't strike me as particularly "vampiric", y'know? Even if it has to be a two-hander, a spear would have been more fitting, or at least a sword.
>>47422370
Give them extra healing surges or an extra second wind to simulate regeneration, maybe?
>>47402292
>He tries to lecture people
>"Shut up and go clean the ghoul den"
>>47405911
The problem is that BDK has to go full edge, but BDK edge is much edgier to other edges.
IE
>STEAL AXE
>KILL ALL THE DEMONS
>KILL INNOCENTS
>BLOOD, BLOOD, SO EDGE
>>47423091
I was working on the idea of giving them a regeneration racial power, like what longtooth shifters have.
The problem really is that regeneration is a vital troll feature, but is stupid powerful in D&D 4e.
>>47423315
Ikr? But i'm stuck with it, because that's the only class that can tank with a greatsword. And I'm the least edgy person you could think of. I just like bizarre and silly adventures.
>>47423536
You're a -blood- -death- knight. That's the epitome of edge.
>>47423550
But I don't want to be edgy.
>>47423577
Then either dont tank, or don't depend on your greatsword so much
>>47423577
BLOOD.
DEATH.
KNIGHT.
Enjoy the edge.
>>47423577
THEN WHY'D YOU PICK A FUCKING DEATH KNIGHT?
>>47423588
>Then either dont tank,
But who will tank if not me?
>don't depend on your greatsword so much
How could you even say such a thing?
>>47423596
Fine, bring it on board, I'll call it in.
>>47423651
Tanking with a two-hander. Also silly skull armor and blue neon shoulderpads.
I don't know why people are complaining about BDK edginess
I'm just miffed that frost DKs can't go 2H anymore. I can't be a frosty viking armed with a gigantic axe anymore. I have to go around with two piddly little shortswords like some kind of weakling
>>47423536
Can't you just transmog it?
>>47423751
Whoops, meant for >>47422390
>>47423751
But everyone wil still refer to this weapon as an axe.
>>47423666
>666
Satan be praised, go get your favorite metal disk
>>47423718
I don't know why they even made DW an option, much less mandatory. Not a single DK character prior to wrath did it, and even in wrath they were a tiny, tiny minority. It doesn't clash with the class but it doesn't really fit either.
>>47424270
>>47423718
DKtard here:
DW doesn't fit at all.
DK is the big retard faggot with magic and undead minions, no finese or shit, just either out-last, slowdown(frost) or overwhelm while hitting for hueg deeps
>>47424270
It's because early DKs had a lot of viking-style elements, which includes "marauder with an axe in each hand".
So, when does alexstraza get corrupted
>>47424270
it's only mandatory for frost because they fucked up the balancing so the bonus you get from DW is way better than the bonus you get for a 2H
>>47425498
Yeah having Razorice and Unholy Strength is just too good. Why go 2h when I can get 25% strength and 20% more frost damage?
>>47425498
They're rolling with it in Legion instead of making any attempt at fixing it. Its either DW or severely handicap yourself by trying to use a different spec's artifact.
>>47425947
Nevermind, just read more about them and you can't even equip the axe/sword if you're frost. You're straight up forced to DW.
>>47425931
not to mention that frost strike with the DW bonus is so much better than obliterate with the 2H bonus. There's not even a point to use obliterate if you're not 2H
>>47425947
>>47425973
And Blizzard has yet to let people transmog MH+OH /DW into single weapon, because they're cunts who can't be bothered to adjust the animation speed.
>>47427238
warlocks need the inverse of this. They look way cooler with a MH dagger or sword and an off-hand, but staves are nearly always better
>mfw there's no end to how many chances at redemption Maiev and Sylvanas will be given
How many innocents must they kill to get there is the question.
>>47427350
Maiev did literally nothing wrong
>>47427373
>Plotted to kill Malfurion and surely Tyrande too eventually
>Wanted to torture Malfurion and lock him away like Illidan
>Tried to sabotage the Alliance
>Hates Humans, Worgen, "lesser races" etc.
>Aimed to kill the Worgen around Teldrassil
>Her and the watchers she commanded killed Night Elf sentinel's as if it was nothing
>Her and the watchers she commanded aimed to kill every last Highborne in Teldrassil, she was stopped but many were still murdered
>Wanted to use her brother as a "puppet"
Yeah, she did literally nothing wrong. How the fuck can characters get away with this? I guess the lolcorruption curse doesn't work on the """""""""""fan favorites""""""""""".
>>47427586
none of those are a bad thing
gas the Highbourne, magic wars now
>>47420989
I... did not know that. I'm disappointed that that's a thing.
Check out Scarlet Crusade machinima
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1CpVjR4Xvg&feature=youtu.be
>>47428061
You'd have to be autistic to make that ironically.
>>47428244
What would it make them if they made it unironically?
>>47428244
Wait till you see wha thappens on 6:40!
>>47427586
>Tyrande killed Night Elf wardens as if it was nothing
FTFY
But still, literally nothing you just said is wrong. I side with Maiev.
>>47428739
Not that guy, but when did she do that?
>>47428806
when she rescues Illidan
>>47427586
>tried to kill demon worshiping cultists that almost destroyed Azeroth
this is bad because?
>>47428806
Warcraft 3. After the Watchers had sworn an eternity of service, and Maiev had faithfully guarded Illidan's prison for 10,000 years, Tyrande (one of the very people who ORDERED Illidan's imprisonment) watlzed in and said
>"Well, he's served enough of his eternal sentence. Let him go."
>>What? Um, no? YOU said he had to sit there eternally.
>Changed my mind. Let him go.
>>No
>Ok then.
Tyrande proceeds to butcher every Watcher she comes across and even a Keeper of the Grove. She kills a SON OF CENARIUS to free Illidan, who (again) she had sentenced.
You can see how Maiev was pretty pissed with her when she found the carnage sometime later.
>>47430412
And then Illidan retributes Tyrande turning into ultra Satan. And maiev lives an eternal existence of failing to inprison Illidan again because everyone frees him when she succeds.
>>47430583
>ultra Satan
Malfurion pls
>>47407270
The time paradox of killing Mannoroth in Hellfire Citadel in order to open portal to the top of the citadel to kill Mannoroth is actually remarked on in the quest for it, too.
>>47407586
the WC2 main orc campaign is noncanon, but both the Horde and Alliance WC2X campaigns have Dalaran raided by Teron Gorefiend and his death knights. Not really a sacking, but you can bet that put the fear into them.
>>47430583
Malfurion, I hope you die in the Emerald Dream.
>>47432731
But if you die in the Emerald Dream, you die for Emerald Real!
>>47433438
Just ask Cenarius!
Oh wait...
>ywn join the Sargerei to bang edgy red sluts
I just realized that if Blizzard had just put fel orcs in Shadowmoon Valley, they could have had it so the Black Temple/Hellfire Citadel confusion never happens. Illidan and co. never take the Dark Portal so there's no reason to believe they ended up in Hellfire Peninsula except for Blizzard putting Magtheridon there afterward
>>47406439
Autism
>>47435598
There's some fel orcs in SMV (the ones hanging out on the island for Netherwing quests), and fairly many as mobs in Black Temple. Illidan probably just moved Magtheridon to HFC after imprisoning him, not wanting to keep a pissed off pitlord chained up in his HQ.
R.I.P. Garry Downscream,
The only fucker to do anything useful in WoW.
>>47436136
that could be possible, but the separation of the Black Citadel into the Black Temple and Hellfire Citadel was a weird point that didn't seem to serve any purpose but messing up previous lore
>You are given permission to retcon one lore moment of your choice in the WoW timeline, what do you choose?
For me it'd be Thrall making Garrosh Warchief. Had he chosen Vol'Jin from the beginning and given Garrosh Saurfang's job instead things would have turned out a lot better for everybody. Vol'Jin wouldn't have started any unnecessary fights and Garrosh could have stayed on the battlefield where he was most effective.
>>47415780
I think the Warcraft Chronicle confirms that Azeroth was relatively small compared to other nations seeing as how fringe it was. As for which is bigger, Stormwind of Capitol City, I can't tell, but my money's on Capitol City. It's basically like what Rome was for the Catholic world.
>>47436848
the best outcome for the Horde post-Shattering would have been to make Cairne warchief Garrosh and Saurfang the supreme generals of the Horde. Garrosh was clearly capable of heroic feats of leadership, but he needed Saurfang to stop him and go "dude, that's retarded, calm down" every once in awhile. Removing that gave us one expansion where Garrosh didn't want to murder everyone before MoP and WoD happened
>>47436848
Can I just say "all of cataclysm"?
Thrall should have never retired, Sylvanas should never have gone crazypants and started raising more undead, Gallywix should have been exiled or imprisoned instead of left in power, Malfurion should never have awoken, Fandral shouldn't have gone as crazy as Sylvanas, the Bronzebeards should have fucking stabbed that traitor Moira the moment she showed up, Varian should still be a jerk, defeating Deathwing shouldn't fulfill the draconic prophesy or whatever it was called and the expansion as a whole should have been about the emerald dream rather than the elemental planes
>>47436848
One of the things that really irks me about WoW is the inconsistent geography, not just compared to the older games but also to itself. Like the weird differences even within individual zones between Outland and Draenor, or the BC Hyjal raid and the zone in Cataclysm.
>>47436848
Illiadin wins that fight.
>>47436914
the differences between Draenor and Outland got waved away as different timelines + Ner'zhul blowing it up, but there are still some similarities. The radical differences between maps of Azeroth in different games is pretty amusing though
>>47427586
Man, Wolfheart really derailed her character, didn't it? She never came off as racist in TFT, considering she was perfectly willing to help out Drak'thul (though she regretted it once she learned he used to be a warlock), and the only reason she was against helping Kael'thas and his troops was because she didn't want to risk Illidan getting away, and in Dalaran she was perfectly willing to work with both blood elves and humans anyway.
>>47436959
Yeah, there's a lot of inconsistencies
>>47437103
Yeah, Wolfheart was a terrible book for the lore, and not just because"lel, I'm Maiev, I villain now." Knaak has done a terrible job at writing nelf women. Or just writing in general. I personally consider the events loosely canon, since it's getting whitewashed in Legion anyhow.
>>47437194
He's had a few decent lore ideas (mainly fleshing out the Aspects a bit, I liked Malygos in DotD), but yeah, he's an abysmal storyteller.
>>47437194
Blizzard seems to have gone out of its way to destroy all the characters and plot points he created though.
I never really liked Maiev's though, the NE campaign in TFT is by far my least favorite part.
>>47437406
I respect your personal preference, but I am personally the opposite. Her campaign was one of the most fun for me. Her Blink ability was a blast to use. And I really really enjoyed the foil she provided for Illidan and Tyrande. I think she was a good addition for diversifying the night elf narrative, and so I would hate to see her squandered away as a loot pinata in Legion. Just my two cents.
Unholy DK artifact quest should have involved the plaguelands and the cult of the damned since they're basically the necromancer class now.
>>47436906
Did Malfurion sleep again at the end of WC3? I honestly don't remember, Archimonde blows up and then...a few years later WoW happens.
>>47438170
He was still awake in TFT. I think the reason he was asleep in WoW was because he was looking into the Nightmare, or maybe he was just really ready for a nap after his Lordaeron vacation.
>>47436959
go see the WC2 map of draenor vs the outland map of WC3, it doesn't add up.
>>47438398
Glad I'm not going crazy then. I was thinking that I'd missed the bit where he goes back to sleep.
>>47438647
Now compare the wc2 map with the one in burning crusade and its rather close!
Closer than the map from warlords of draenor ....
>>47438973
>Closer than the map from warlords of draenor ....
>tfw the flighted arakkoa fell into the Nether instead of conquering Outland
I fucking hate blizzard and how they ruined warcraft lore withWC3andnelfs
>>47439047
fuck off Dath'remar
>>47439002
I wonder what happened to them and the other parts of Draenor. Outland seems to have survived largely intact, all things considered (the most heavily damaged zones aren't due to the planet breaking up alone). So the chunks of Draenor containing the Arakkoa or the Gorean Empire might still be floating around somewhere.
>>47440153
they're building spaceships to conquer the universe in the name of the sun. They'll be the opening raid of the Argus expansion
>>47436959
>the differences between Draenor and Outland got waved away as different timelines + Ner'zhul blowing it up, but there are still some similarities
If you're still playing, you might want to check out this item
http://www.wowhead.com/item=129929
It points out several places in Outland and Draenor that fit with each other and allows to move from one world to the other.
>>47440876
along with that, there's also a noticeable correlation between the Ruins of Kra'nak and the Dead Mire. (giant wind serpent skeleton, ancient ruins, near the same place)
>>47427586
>A night Elf acting like Night Elves were originally envisioned.
You say that like its a bad thing.
>>47437103
In TFT, she lied to Malfurion and made him abandon Tyrande, thinking she was dead so she could try to pursue Illidan some more.
>>47443374
Yeah, and that's the ONE bad thing she did. She's inspector Javert, not fucking Judge Doom.
>>47443374
That's a few steps down from attempted genocide, methinks.
Maiev is best girl Tyrande can suck it
>>47443521
Oh yessss, she can.
t. Malfurion.
>>47443521
>liking crazy
Also why would a dk be brooding and grim all the time? He literally has zero reasons to be edgy. Just think about it:
>die while protecting people
>protect them so good you got ressed as a dk
>have all cool powers and shit
>set yourself free
>lol, but you have to kill shit to prevent constant agony
>would be shit, if the entire fucking setting wasn't populated by the evil shit to kill
DKs are bretty lucky if you think about it, because most people just die when they are killed.
>>47443933
>DK's have a compulsion to cause pain and suffering
>playing a frost DK at maximum efficiency in PvE means burning and freezing your enemies to death at the same time
5/5 bretty gud
>>47444011
This. They don't really have a reason to be edgy, they just have to clean the house from time to time.
>>47443933
They don't even have to kill shit, just inflict pain. A peacetime DK could get by on fight clubs or working as a dominatrix.
>>47444116
>dominatrix, DK, spess goat waifu
>>47444268
she's an anti-paladin not a DK, but Tyrant Velhari gives me a half chub every time I fight her just off her voice lines
>>47444116
Anyone have any good DK art that isn't Arthas?
>>47444116
Also this. Literally no reason to rp dk as an edgy guy. He's like one of the happiest people on Azeroth.
>>47444366
Except the unsurety of the afterlife for some.
Some go the self-damaging route of that one master smith who gouged out his own eyes so that he "would not witness the world he had committed so many atrocities upon". Some aim their destructive tendencies to more productive means, slaying enemies of their living allies.I love the DK World Police route that they're taking in Legion. Eat shit, Sylvanas.
>>47444268
It's called playing a warlock.
>>47444511
But would dks vape?
>>47444511
>I love the DK World Police route that they're taking in Legion. Eat shit, Sylvanas.
I can't wait
>tfw you break into Light's Hope, steal Tirion's body, and leave a passive aggressive note advising them to get better security
>then you do it in Orgrimmar, SM, and Stromgarde too
based Ebin :-DDD Blade
>>47444268
>Acherus hosts violent orgies at least once a week
>one day they decide to park within hearing range of Light's Hope for shits and giggles
>"battle of Light's Hope" soon becomes code for fighting the urge to masturbate
>>47444579
>steal shit
>police
>>47444756
>>steal shit
I think you mean "repossessed in the interests of planetary security", citizen
>>47444756
It's confiscation of assets
>>47444774
But they don't even represent a legitimate authority. They're just a bunch of random jackoffs with looted weapons.
Besides, considering the Argents spared them when no one would have objected to just smiting them on the spot, it's a really dickish move.
>>47444874
They're back to carrying out the will of the Lich King.
The scourge is just as legitimate as the horde or alliance, and it has more of a claim to the eastern plaguelands than either of them. If anything, the argent crusade are random jackoffs squatting in their yard.
>>47444874
death is the most legitimate authority of all anon
now get in the necropolis, we're making Azeroth great again
DAILY REMINDER THAT SYLVANAS WILL NEVER BE A RAID BOSS AND WILL RULE THE FORSAKEN FOREVER. LOVE LIVE THE DARK LADY. EAT SHIT, EBON BLADE.
>>47445144
The current Lich King is an ex-steward of Stormwind, he's got bugger-all claim to Lordaeron. Besides, "Lich King" has never been an actual title of nobility or royalty, Ner'zhul post-BtDP was essentially just an upstart necromancer who only gained traction because of demon support. He's essentially Thulsa Doom with a different theme.
In any case, this isn't about land, it's about the Ebon Blade backstabbing the one faction they really owe the most to. Despite their ideological differences, the Ebons and the Argents were the only factions in Wrath that truly got along with each other, so it just seems out of character that they'd screw them over like that.
>>47445217
at least Genn will be a fun boss fight
our campaign is kinda crazy right now
one of my players is a chaos orc and another is trying to become a lich
how about you guys
>>47445430
Because at the end of the day, the Ebon Blade are pragmatists. They don't care who they piss off or have to knock around, as long as they get what they need to do their job. If saving Azeroth means knocking over a few mausoleums, then so be it.
>>47446048
I don't know, they always had a soft spot for the Argents. I could see them stealing stuff from the Horde or the Alliance or even pillaging Wyrmrest or something, but this just reads like Kosak wants to take a dump on "the paladin organization". It's deliberately edgy writing.
>>47446311
The Ebon Blade only tolerated the Argent Crusade because Horde and Alliance aside, they were the only vaguely competent organization opposed to the Lich King in Northrend. Means to an end, m8.
>>47446330
Though Darion saw Tirion as a naive idealist, there was certainly a bond of brotherhood there. I'd argue that the Ebon Blade had more respect for Tirion Fordring than they did for the Argents as a whole. It was the combination of the two that formed the Ashen Verdict to cut through Icecrown Citadel.
It's just that they know Tirion isn't going to lay down and sleep the eternal sleep while the world is in peril- he was the first one to go for the crown of the Lich King when he knew it would mean being the jailer of the damned. He's selfless- and that's why he needs to come back as the Fourth Horseman.
>>47446330
The Ebon Blade literally wouldn't exist if not for the Argents.
>>47446588
>>>47446330
>The Ebon Blade literally wouldn't exist if not for Tirion's plot armor
fixed
>>47446695
I'd say the same plot armour kept the Ebons from just having their heads lopped off after the battle. In any case, their entire existence is a plot contrivance, so let's not go down that road.
>>47446546
Weren't those being raised as the horsemen given the choice to do so? I feel like I read that in one of these threads. If so, that speaks volumes for each one's character.
>>47446922
What I find interesting is that Light's Hope Chapel was a stone's throw over the hill from this large Scarlet enclave, and the Scarlets never did anything about it. At the time of the DK starter quests, they were too wound up trying to get to Northrend as soon as possible, under orders of their glorious leader. Still, you'd think something would've been done.
>>47447015
That was mentioned in a previous thread, yes. The Ebon Blade supposedly will only raise you as a Horseman if you willingly consent.
>>47446588
Yes it would. It just wouldn't call itself that and continue serving Arthas. If Darion hadn't passed Ashbringer, the Argents would've been finished and the death knights would've either gone back to Northrend or set their sights on the forsaken. Without the crusade or ebon blade the Alliance and Horde would be even more disjointed, possibly leading to a scourge victory before the LK even has a chance to spring his stupid plan, and if not the plan would work with Ashbringer out of the picture.
DKs gave them the plot stick that ultimately beat the LK. The Argents fighting to keep one corpse that wants to keep fighting is more of a betrayal than the Ebons stealing it.
>>47447015
>>47447053
>Nazgrim: I fought and died for this world- I will do so again!
>Whitemane: I have much to repent for. My redemption will come from the blood of demons.
>Tirion: There can be no rest for me while the Legion threatens this world. My blade is yours once again.
>Thoras: I'm undead now? Fine, whatever. NOW WHERE IS THAT LIL SHIT GALEN
>>47447053
There used to be Scarlet emissaries in Light's Hope before Cataclysm. The Brotherhood of Light (a subfaction of the Argents) and the Scarlets willing to work together in the interests of not getting Naxx'd.
>>47447130
Silver Hand paladins don't see death the same way the Ebon Blade does. Tirion was among their most honored dead, so it's not surprising they would take offense at the Ebon Blade trying to shanghai his corpse.
>>47447130
this guy gets it
so what happened to the Ashen Verdict? I thought the Argent Crusade and the Ebon Blade agreed on joint leadership or did that go down the drain after they killed Arthas.
>>47447203
I imagine the Ashen Verdict immediately dismantled, since they finally cut off the head of the undead serpent. Now it's just maintenance and cleanup in Northrend.
>>47447174
>>Nazgrim: I fought and died for this world- I will do so again!
broing up with Nazgrim will be the best part of playing a DK in Legion
>>47447224
Yeah, I was upset we had to kill him in Mists, it's good to have him back.
>>47447224
>DK antics
>warlocks get the twins
>the potential hilarity of Warchief Sylvanas
Legion is giving me the itch to relapse worse than any other expansion since I quit. Thank fuck I had that free week to get it out of my system.
>>47447174
>Thoras: I'm undead now? Fine, whatever. NOW WHERE IS THAT LIL SHIT GALEN
Didn't the Ebon Blade take out Galen before they revived Thoras? Poor guy didn't even get a chance for revenge.
>>47447597
Yeah, Galen forbade them (lol) from raising him and also kept Sylvanas' val'kyr from doing the same because he's the only one who would have revealed that Galen murdered him to usurp his position. Undead and living Stromgardians alike would have wanted Galen's head on a pike, because Thoras was a well-respected leader.
Either way, Galen ends up dead and Thoras ends up undead. Nazgrim gets into his stride as a DK by using a bunch of shadow-hands to Force Choke the shit out of a bunch of Galen's goons while being all like "ARE YOU SERIOUSLY TRYING TO START SHIT WITH US".
>>47436848
Forsaken not being a thing. They fear and hate the living, and for what? They were the ones who turned around and slaughtered their allies after retaking Lordaeron. They are the ones that keep people for hedious experiments.
An elf horrors personal army of freed slaves slaves. The living hate the fucking undead because they give them no reason not to.
