Afternoon, kids! Who's got rules questions?
Massacre Wurm on the battlefield with damnation about to clear from the stack; since all creatures die at the same time does Massacre Wurm's second ability see them and trigger? I imagine it'd work similarly to Blood Artist?
>>47352856
Yes to both. Things that enter or leave the battlefield together "see" each other do so; a Massacre Wurm dying to Damnation will "see" all the other creatures dying, and trigger appropriatley.
How do you feel about Chinese cards
Not a rules question
What is your take on some European store losing WPN status?
>>47353295
Chinese cards, or chinese counterfeits? The cards, you do you booboo. I have a few Russian cards, and I know a friend who exclusively uses German foils. Counterfeits? Not a fan.
>>47353346
It seems fucky. I understand the WPN rules and the logic behind them, but I think in some areas they need to consider not forcing the same rules that work in America on everyone, and try to find a solution that works.
This can probably be found elsewhere, but since you're here...
If I am attacking with a creature and a blocker is declared, if I instant speed give it protection from the blocker's color does the attack go through, or would I have to had given it protection before the blocker was declared?
It's still blocked, and damage won't get to the player.
you'd needed to give it protection before blockers was declared . Once blocked it remains blocked. Your guy won't take damage from the blocking creature though.
Same way that if you give a creature flying after its been blocked by a non-flyer, it will still remain blocked.
>>47353513
Ah, I figured as much, but just wanted to be sure. Thanks!
>>47352836
L1 from Cincy hoping you can give a bit of insight here. I was a floor judge for a GPT and got called by a player in top8 accusing his opponent of cheating, the conversation went something like this.
>Me: why do you think this is cheating?
>AP: all his sideboard cards are non-foil, all his mainboard cards are! They're marked.
>Me: NAP, is this true?
>NAP: Yeah, but but it's only for ease of boarding. They're all double sleeved and you can't differentiate them.
I take 3 foils and 3 non-foils, shuffle them and go 2-for-6 in identifying which is which while face-down. I repeat this and go 3-for-6 with 6 different cards. At this point I'm satisfied that there's no advantage to be gained and rule they play on.
AP appeals my ruling to the head judge, who as soon as he hears the explanation issues a DQ to NAP and amidst his chewing out threatens to DQ me as well, up to the point of asking if I'd been bribed.
Who was right here? Did the head judge overstep, or should I have tossed him first?
Player A swings with a 4/4 .
Player B Deflecting Palm's the 4/4 before damage.
Player A casts Fog in response.
Palm does no damage, right?
>>47353981
Incorrect. When multiple replacement effects try to replace the same thing, the player affected (or the controller of the permanent affected) gets to choose which to apply.
This means player B can choose to use Deflecting Palm's damage prevention instead of Fog's damage prevention. Player A is going to be taking 4 damage.
>>47354029
So if someone deflecting palms your creature you can't fog it, basically.
>>47354181
You can fog it. They just have the option to use deflecting palm to prevent the damage instead of fog. Applying fog's damage prevention is still legal, so if they just go "okay, no damage" then you don't have to correct them.
>>47354181
Well you can try to cast it anyway in case the other guy doesn't know the ruling and doesn't call a judge.
>>47354198
can I just say I hate how some people phrase it like this. It makes it sound like you're cheating or doing something scummy, and it really isn't that bad.
>>47354736
Riding on your opponent's ignorance instead of winning through optimal play is pretty scummy.
>>47353451
You'd need to give it protection first. Making a block illegal POST block does nothing- once your guy gets blocked, he stays blocked.
>>47353840
I'm curious how the HJ planned on DQing you when you weren't a player. Technically, the Head Judge's ruling is final, and with the standard "I wasn't there" clause I'm not gonna dispute it, but you did the right thing in doing a quick check to see if the cards are marked, and his snap DQ is a bit odd.
His BEHAVIOR towards you is also total bullshit, and should be reported to the JCC people. And no, you shouldn't have tossed him first- you actually don't have the power to do that anyway. Only the HJ can DQ.
>>47353981
Fog and Palm are both trying to prevent the same damage event, so the affected player (the guy getting domed in this case) chooses the order to apply them. Since that's Player B, he can choose to apply Palm before Fog and still smack A for 4.
>>47354736
To be fair, superior knowledge of the rules is a skill that we're supposed to encourage and reward. LYING is shitty, but throwing out a legal-but-stupid bluff and hoping your opponent makes a legal-but-stupid misplay isn't scummy.
If I buy someone's card they own while it's on the field mid-game does it come under my control during the upkeep?
>>47355079
I asked for more information on Monday after he'd had sunday to chill. His logic was that marked cards are marked cards, and that my inability to tell whether or not it was foil from holding it was suspicious. As for DQing me, I assumed he would do the same thing a judge does to a spectator who fucks up - add them to the tourney so they can be DQ'd.
I will talk to the JCC though.
>>47355317
No.
>>47355324
So, cards aren't actually MARKED unless you can tell them apart without looking at the face. That's just a regular Warning, and needs to be fixed. Cards that are Marked in such a way that a player could gain an advantage if they noticed the pattern (for example, all their sideboard cards are foil) can have that penalty upgraded to a Game Loss at the HJ's discretion. If the HJ believes that the pattern was done on purpose, that's DQable.
I can understand him being leery of that very obvious pattern, but the pattern has to exist alongside the cards -actually being marked-. If you couldn't tell the foils apart from the nonfoils, then they aren't marked and there's not an inherent problem. A snap DQ because "foils = marked cards" is really ignorant on his part, and even if he made the 'right' ruling, his behavior is inexcusable.
>>47354761
I'm not beholden to tell my opponent how they should play the game. If they don't take advantage of a situation because they haven't studied the rules, then I shouldn't be punished for that.
>>47355079
Be that as it may, what's to keep someone (or a lot of someones) from calling you a scumbag who deserves pitchforks and torches? The borborygmos/pithing needle incident STILL has people calling for Huang's head, saying he should have been DQd for unsportsmanlike conduct.
>>47355317
No. In the sense of the game, a card's "owner" is whoever had it in their deck or command zone when the game began.
>>47355385
>then I shouldn't be punished for that
I never said you should, but it's scummy nonetheless.
>mwahaha I top8'd because my opponent doesn't know fog palm interactions and didn't call a judge
>>47355375
According to the judge, and I quote, "my 3-year old daughter can pick out a foil from a non-foil. If you can't, then you have problems."
Really kind of thankful that I'm moving soon.
>>47354029
Isn't Player A's creature getting affected, though?
So Player A would just choose Fog?
How does torpor orb work vs Arcbound ravager?
Also, if a Viscera Seer sacrifices a Kitchen Finks with Melira/Anifanza on the board, can you respond to the sacrifice with removal on the Seer? Or could he, in response to the removal, declare the sacrifice again?
Ty in advance
Is this tournament legal?
>>47355385
>what's to keep someone (or a lot of someones) from calling you a scumbag
Either "nothing" or "The IPG's section on Unsporting Conduct". If you're more concerned with your general reputation and possible backlash than you are with winning a game, by all means let them know. You're not expected to, but it'd be really nice of you. But I think it's silly to fault someone for making a 100% legal play that is either worthless or super-tech depending on which COMPLETELY LEGAL choice their opponent makes based on their rules knowledge, or lack thereof.
You do you booboo.
>>47355413
So, here's the way a lot of us Judges break things down. There's three kinds of behavior:
The first is Unsporting; things that are covered in the IPG as Unsporting Conduct. Calling your opponent a slur, insulting someone, threatening someone, trying to angle-shoot with illegal shit, etc.
The second is Sporting. This is stuff that's generally considered to be above-and-beyond; letting your opponent take back a play (especially one that might punt the game), conceding a game you feel you shouldn't have won, scooping to a kid at a prerelease so he gets more prizes and has a good experience, etc. All of this is really nice of you, but nobody expects it of you, and nobody will bat an eye if you DON'T do it.
The rest falls under "Not Sporting". It's not UNSPORTING, but it's not Sporting either. It's not illegal, but it might come across as scummy, or make you look like a dick. An example of this would be using legal loopholes to fuck someone over.
Personally I don't think it's scummy. Any 100% legal gambit that can get completely fucked over by your opponent just calling a judge to ask "how does this interaction work?" isn't scummy.
>>47355428
Report to the JCC. Period. That bullshit is not okay.
>>47355460
The event being modified is "damage being dealt to Player B", not "The damage of Player A's creature".
>>47355467
Not a judge, but the wording on ravager is "Enters the battlefield with" and not "When it enters the battlefield" so I assume torpor orb does not instantly kill it.
>>47355467
>Orb
It doesn't. Modular 1 is two abilities; the first is a replacement effect that modifies how Ravager enters the battlefield (and that's not stopped by Orb). The second is a triggered ability that fires when Ravager dies, which is not stopped by Orb.
>Seer
You can. The activated ability uses the stack and can be responded to; you can't aim removal at the Finks, since it's already dead, but you can pop the Seer with the Persist trigger on the stack to bust the combo.
>>47355484
HJ's discretion. I wouldn't allow it.
>>47355460
The thing being replaced is the damage that's being prevented. Since it's about to hit B, he gets to choose.
9/20/2014: If multiple prevention and/or replacement effects are trying to apply to the same damage, the player who would be dealt damage chooses the order in which to apply them. Notably, if noncombat damage would be dealt to you by a source controlled by an opponent, you choose the order in which to apply Deflecting Palm and the planeswalker redirection effect. If you apply Deflecting Palm first, the damage will be prevented (and damage will be dealt to the source’s controller) and the planeswalker redirection effect won’t apply.
>>47355467
Torpor orb will stop modular, and you're likely to have a dead ravager.
Sacrificing a creature is a cost for the effect. You can kill the seer in response but it won't stop the effect. They can also sac seer to itself to blank the kill spell but both of their creatures are still dying.
>>47355484
Judge's discretion. If it is deemed allowed, it is a Plains.
>>47355555
>Torpor orb will stop modular
What?
>>47355555
>Torpor Orb will stop modular
No it won't. The only portion of Modular that's a trigger doesn't involve creatures entering the battlefield, and the only part of Modular that involves a creature entering the battlefield isn't a trigger.
>>47355496
So I swing, he palms, I fog, and he calls a judge, at which point I admit "yeah I know he can have deflecting palm shoot me if he wants, but I wanted to see if he'd miss it"
You're saying that is 100% legal and no penalty should be applied?
Would I be able to copy Archanist's Exiled card with Kraj or would he somehow need his own exiled card?
>>47355582
>>47355587
my bad, guys. I thought "as this enters" abilities were stopped.
>>47355625
Absolutely. Nothing you did was illegal.
"I was hoping my opponent would make a legal misplay based on a flawed understanding of the rules" is not illegal. Would you expect to get in trouble for not correcting your opponent when he muses out loud "Oh no, this Damnation won't kill your guy, it has pro-black..."?
Cheating requires three things: It requires that you do something illegal, knowing that it is illegal, in an attempt to gain an advantage. If what you're doing isn't illegal, it literally cannot be cheating.
>>47355626
Arcanist has a linked ability. Kraj would HAVE the activated ability, but since there's no card associated with Kraj's version of it, the ability isn't good for much.
>>47355653
Nope! The three words that denote a trigger are "When", "Whenever", and "At". "As" is going to be a replacement effect in this context.
>>47355626
Kraj would need his own exiled cards. Elite arcanist has a "linked" ability, meaning its second ability is tied directly to the object his first ability. Copying it won't give you the same result because the copy isn't linked.
>>47355524
>>47355507
Thanks. Nice to know I can pop Viscera, I just assumed he could, in response, poop out a bazillion more triggers.
>>47355428
Wait though wouldn't that mean that all foils are essentially banned from the store then? Unless you literally have 100% of everything foiled.
Like, I have a playset of FNM Serums (same price as normal so I got the shinys), they're double sleeved and as far as I can tell I can't notice it in my deck. But technically I would get banned because it's 4/60 cards that are 'marked'?
What if someone had a single foil of a deck's mainstay? Or a handful of assorted foils? Where do you draw the line??
If my opponent has a permanent that deals damage to me at my upkeep and they forget about the trigger but I don't and say anything do I still take the damage?
>>47355674
>Would you expect to get in trouble for not correcting your opponent when he muses out loud "Oh no, this Damnation won't kill your guy, it has pro-black..."?
Absolutely, unless it's jsut in his hand.
>>47355698
I would think not. Apparently my HJ disagrees, because the cards are marked and you can gain advantage from that.
That said he's also rather skilled with assorted sleight of hand tricks, meaning he may be tilting at windmills.
>>47355698
Nah. If you respond right after he sacs his Finks, then Finks is in the graveyard with the Persist trigger on the stack. He can't keep the combo going 'in response' to your removal because the piece he needs to sacrifice is still dead. Killing Seer will break the combo, because when Finks comes back he has no sac outlet. Killing Melira/Banana will stop the combo, because the Finks comes back with a counter that it keeps, and he can't sac it infinitely. Heck, removing the Finks from the graveyard in response to the trigger stops it too.
As for the foils:
Foils have a tendency to warp. The material the foils are made of is a bit different than the rest of the card, so it can make them warp, especially in areas with high humidity. Just because foils have a higher CHANCE of warping does not mean they are all warped. It's just something to be careful of. If you cannot tell a foil apart from a nonfoil, you're fine; if you're worried, double-check with your HJ beforehand.
Also, getting suspended/banned is not the call of the judge. A judge can DQ you from an event, and then the Investigations Committee decides whether or not to suspend you. You'd ONLY be DQed (assuming a competent judge) if there was a pattern in your marked cards that the judge thought you were intentionally taking advantage of. Having 4x Serum Visions as your only foils would raise my eyebrow and I'd double-check that they're not warped, and if they aren't I would immediately stop caring.
>>47355744
Nope.You are under no obligation to remind your opponent of his own triggers.
>>47355751
I was unclear- I meant that he decides NOT to cast it based on his flawed understanding. In this scenario, you're not silently permitting an illegal gamestate, you're simply not correcting a passive, incorrect assumption.
>>47355744
This has been hotly contested and changed a lot in recent years. I believe the current rule is "if your opponent misses a trigger and you don't want them to have it, you don't have to say anything."
>>47355804
Re:Foils - The Head Judge's contention is that it wasn't warping that marked them in this case, it's that they are significantly heavier than normal cards, making it easier to cut to them and stack them, something that double-sleeving does nothing to alleviate.
>>47355876
>Significantly heavier
Okay, so he's an idiot. Got it.
If I copy a spell with like, a wild ricochet or something similar, do I copy all "extra" things about it? Like if I copied a Tooth and Nail entwined, would the copy be entwined? What about a kicked rite of replication or an overloaded cyclonic rift? There's obviously a lot more but if you copy a spell do you copy the spell exactly? (Unless it targets obviously because you can usually select new targets)
>>47355952
"Choices made when casting a spell" are copiable things about about a spell. A copy of an overloaded spell is overloaded, a copy of an entwined spell is entwined, etc. Basically take the spell they cast as it exists right now, and CTRL+C CTRL+V.
>>47355952
Copies retain all choices made on the original copy. If the original was kicked or entwined, so is the copy.
With overloaded cyclonic rift, the original one will still sweep away everything its controller (not you) doesn't control - though your copy will wipe those off.
>>47352836
Does the reason I always get paired down have anything to do with my last name?
>>47356146
Doubtful. The person who gets paired down is the one with the worst tiebreakers among all players with that point total. (or chosen at random among players who are tied for worst breakers)
However, that means once you get paired down, you're playing against worse opponents than everyone else at your point total and your tiebreakers will continue to suffer, meaning you'll continue to be paired down every round until you you either lose a match, or the pairings work out evenly.
>>47355804
Interesting, so if I had cards that I want to say are the highlights of my deck and c only get foils of specifics, it can be argued I'm cheating because my entire deck is not foil?
I just can't find a relevant thread on this topic we just had at the LGS.
Situation: Multiplayer Commander.
Gitrog player has Gitrog Monster in play, Darkmoor Salvage in hand and enchants Monster with Oblivion Crown.
The basic combo for anyone interested:
>discard Darkmoor to Oblivion Crown
>Gitrog triggers a draw because Darkmoor goes to the yard
>dredge 2 instead of drawing
>Darkmoor returns to hand
>for every land that is dredged another card draw
>he can discard Darkmoor
so, this is the basic setup
now he just wanted to demonstrate the following: with one Lotus Petal in the deck and one Kozilek he said he could make infinite mana
I intervened and explained, that this was the same problem as with Four Horsemen
while it is true, that he could infinitely dredge through his deck until he hit Kozilek over and over again, he could not predict to hit Lotus Petal with a draw every iteration before he hit Kozilek
same goes for his win con ofc
a judge (not sure) who was participating in draft said that he wasn't familiar with the FH rulings, but for him the problem was basically, that the Gitrog player wanted to shortcut something that included an if-statement, like "I do X for n (while n is unknown) until state Y is reached. If Y is reached I do Z.
I know the whole thing is kinda confusing. In the end he had to go through his deck manually twice to hit a Skirge Familiar he could actually cast - generating a ton of mana and then cast an Exsanguinate he had in hand.
tl;dr: Gitrog+DarkmoorSalvage+Kozilek has no legal shortcut to "I draw my deck" or "I get card X." or "I get card X n times."?
If i sacrifice Carrier Thrall to Pious Evangel, do i gain the life from the Scion entering, or is Pious flipped before the scion entered the battlefield?
If someone casts Reiterate on a Time Warp, the guy who cast Time Warp has the extra turn first, right?
>>47357664
The most recently created turn will be taken first.
If I cast a cmc=3 spell like Putrefy with Maelstrom Nexus on the battlefield and reveal Supply // Demand, do I keep revealing? Do I cast Supply for 0? Can I choose to cast Demand?
>>47357164
It could be ARGUED that you're cheating, just like it could be ARGUED that the moon is made of cheese, or that I'm capable of winning a game of Magic. It doesn't make that statement true.
You're only cheating if you knowingly break a rule to gain advantage. Am I going to be a little suspicious if I see the only foils in your deck are the all-star finishers? Yes, I am. That doesn't mean you're a cheater, it means I'm going to carefully inspect them to see if they're marked. If they are, you and I will have a conversation that will end with a DQ or with me asking you to find replacements. If they aren't, I will give your deck back and proceed to not remotely care about it because you've done nothing wrong.
>>47357399
There's no legal shortcut for the Kozilek thing because he can't tell you how many iterations it will take to get to that point. That said, since it's a casual game, I'm 100% fine with him doing that if the table is fine with it. In a tournament, absolutely not, do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars. At a casual table? Go with the table. If everyone's fine, so am I. If they say "Haha no", then haha no.
>>47357531
The "transform me!" ability goes on the stack, and then the "get a baby" trigger goes on the stack above that. You'll get the baby and gain 1, THEN flip Evangel.
>>47357664
Correct. The Reiterate-made copy will resolve and create an extra turn after this one, and then the original Time Warp will resolve and make a new turn. You always do extra turns and steps in the order of "newest first".
>>47357701
You stop, because Supply // Demand has a CMC of "two and three", which is less than three. You can either cast Supply for 0, or cast Demand.
Yixlid Jailer doesn't remove CDA like Devoid or Lhurgoyfs ability, right?
CAN Butcher Orgg deal combat damage to its controller when it is blocking? I have been saying this bit of trivia for a while, but with Arcum's Sleigh showing me that Defending Player isn't always the person being attacked, I wanted to make sure.
>>47357741
You tell me; is a "Characteristic Defining Ability" an ability?
(Non-Socratic answer: it does remove them)
>>47357768
Unless there's some goofy exception I can't think of, yes. While being attacked, you are the defending player.
Stone-Tongue Basilisk effects no longer combo as well with Lure due to the waterfall-method of assigning damage? As in, they don't work like Deathtouch where you can assign one damage to each blocker?
>>47357805
Right. Since Stone-Tongue has a trigger instead of Deathtouch, you'll have to assign lethal damage to a blocker before you can move on to the next one. The game can't look far enough ahead to tell that just 1 damage from the Basilisk will end up killing that blocker.
>>47357799
So, if by some ridiculous reason I was run in Selfless Exorcist and Yixlid was on the field, his reminder text would suddenly be accurate again?
>>47357799
Cool. Butcher Orgg da beesssst.
Anyway, if someone cast something like Comet Storm targeting me and my buddy for X=4 and I have a Battletide Alchemist and no other clerics, what is the max possible amount of damage I can prevent?
What if it was a Comet Storm targeting my Level 1 Hedron Field Purists and myself for X=2? How much then?
>>47355079
Just to make sure I'm clear on this, that means you can't play a card in response to someone declaring a blocker? Or are you talking about giving it protection after the declare blockers step?
Noob here.
Can you have 4 of one legendary in your deck?
Example: I have a reanimator deck with 4x Griselbrand, and some other creatures
I'm a bit confused on that part due to Hearthstone, and not finding clear answers to it on google.
>>47357944
>Can you have 4 of one legendary in your deck?
Yes.
>>47357944
yeah, but you can only have one on your side of the battlefield at a time, if another were to enter play on your side you'd have to choose to sacrifice one.
I control Sedris, and have unearthed a creature with his ability. I also control a conjurer's closet. I stack the triggers such that closet will exile and then return the creature to the battlefield before the unearth exile trigger resolves. As I understand it I get to keep the creature, but I'm having trouble understanding why unearth doesn't replace the exile from Closet, due to the exile if it leaves play clause.
How does Pitchstone Wall interact with madness?
>>47357997
This also applies if you control a more than one copy of a legendary card at any point, like say if you cloned one or if your opponent did and then donated it to you for some reason. It only cares about your side of the battlefield though so you and your opponent can both have Griselbrand in play and it would be perfectly fine.
this is probably a simple layers question, but i might as well ask. are effects like those printed on ethersworn cannonist retroactive? say i cast preordain, then cast cannonist. can i cast ponder afterwards? Would the answer be any different if it were a rule of law style effect instead?
You can't activate stuff during cleanup, can you? I thought I had seen people activate Thawing Glaciers twice before it bounced itself, but now I can't figure out how they did it.
>>47357970
>>47357997
>>47358146
Thank you.
>>47352836
What color is the elemental this faggot produces? Gatherer says nothing.
>>47358137
Unearth says "when leaves play or EoT, exile me". Closet exiles it, so Unearth says "HEY I SAID EX-oh you're already there, okay" and doesn't bother any more.
>>47358144
No differently than anything else - the card ends up in your graveyard, so when pitchstone wall gets around to resolving, it can find the card just fine.
>>47358170
They do look back to see if you've met your quota, yes. Rule of law effects work the same.
>>47358203
Normally you don't get priority during cleanup step. But if something triggers during the cleanup step, THEN both players get priority because something got forced on the stack and you need to be allowed to respond to it. After that there's another cleanup step, and another until a cleanup step happens with nothing going on.
>>47358306
red/green
>>47358306
Colorless, unless the land was given a color by another effect.
>>47358306
>>47358331
Nope. Since there's no effect that sets a color, the land elemental retains its current color - meaning unless it's dryad arbor, it's a colorless creature.
>>47358306
Fairly certain it will be colorless
Can you Word of Command someone to cast a spell like Bone Splinters, i.e. Additional cost, not alternate, if they can play it?
If you make them cast a bolt targeting you, do you draw a card if you have an untapped Farsight Mask?
>>47358363
Should gatherer recognize the elemental as colorless? I think it's just too unclear to be set like that. Anyway, thanks for your answer.
>>47358422
If you word of command someone to play bone splinters, they need to have a creature to sac. You get to pick which of their creatures gets sacrificed.
Even though you're controlling them, they control the bolt. You will draw a card off farsight mask.
>>47358424
Nope. The game doesn't make the land colorless. It just doesn't set a color when animating the land, so it keeps the colors it had - that is to say, none, barring external factors.
>>47358326
But if something triggers during untap, you don't get priority until upkeep, right?
What about the Selfless Exorcist? I wasn't joking, genuinely curious. I'm still confused about the Jailer, given this ruling:
5/1/2007: If Mistform Ultimus is in the graveyard, the Ultimus will lose its ability that says "Mistform Ultimus is every creature type," but it will still *be* all creature types. The way continuous effects work, Mistform Ultimus's type-changing ability is applied before Yixlid Jailer's ability removes it.
Wouldn't other CDAs work the same way?
And as for Pitchstone, I am confused. Didn't you discard it into exile? What if you cast it? Permanent or nonpermanent.
>>47358500
Re - priority: Correct, no one can EVER get priority in untap. If something would trigger, it waits until upkeep. in cleanup, no one gets priority UNLESS something triggers - because if it didn't, it wouldn't go on the stack until the next turn's upkeep, and that's fucked up.
Re: Pitchstone - You discard it into exile, yes, but if it's an instant or sorcery it goes to the graveyard at the end of its resolution. If you choose not to cast a madness card, it goes into the graveyard. In both of those cases pitchstone wall will find it.
Obviously if you cast the madness card and it's a permanent, it won't be in the graveyard for pitchstone wall to find.
>>47358500
>>47358630
...And now I'm wondering what would happen if the madness spell gets countered. It still was discarded and still is in the graveyard, can pitchstone wall pick it up?
If I cast Minds Aglow for 1000 does the person with the fewest cards die first?
Similarly can you cast something after you drawn it but before the spell that made you draw it has finished resolving?
>>47358698
You can't do anything in the middle of a spell's resolution. If you cast minds aglow for 1000, everyone will try their damnedest to draw 1000 cards, all run out, and everyone will lose at the same time (unless someone has lab maniac in play)
>>47358630
I would not have guessed that. What if the Madness card got countered and put into the graveyard then? Is it just "card is discarded and ends up in a graveyard before this triggered ability resolves"? What if it is a creature but it is destroyed before Pitchstone's ability resolves?
Oh and a ruling on Gem Palm Incinerator says that the triggered ability can't target creatures with Protection from Crearures. Does this mean that a Beloved Chaplain can't be exiled by Ulamog, seeing as that also is a triggered ability from a creature card? I thought when a card referred to Crearures, it had to be on the battlefield.
>>47358728
protection from creatures means protection from creatures, creature cards, and creature spells - regardless of if they're in play, in hand, in the graveyard, or on the stack. Something with pro-creatures not a legal target for ulamog (either one).
>>47358728
I am fairly sure that if the discarded card hits play, it's a new object so that won't work. But the game does track some cards in some situations between zones, I'm asking people with much more experience on these matters than I about it.
Things that need Errata
>Grafdiggers works on Exile (Living End)
>Rain of Gore works on Lifelink
>Torpor Orb works on Modular
Am i wrong or am i wrong
>>47359017
People are fallible. They make mistakes. If you spent half as much time working to fix the mistakes as you do harping on them, they'd be a hell of a lot more rare.
If Gideon (any of them), turns into a creature that is still a planeswalker (as he does) would activating Ajani Steadfast's second ability put two counters on him?
>>47359123
yes, he will get a +1/+1 counter, and a loyalty counter. You will need to track these separately.
If someone gains control of my Sarpazzan Heir before its triggered ability resolves, it'll obviously be removed from combat. But does anyone get to draw the cards? Do I still control the triggered ability?
>>47359180
You still get to draw 3 if you want.
If I cast Bring to Light for 5, can I grab Flesh // Blood? What about Beck // Call? Can I cast either half?
>>47359389
you can grab either, and cast either half. When it asks "is your CMC 5 or less" it doesn't need to hear yes from both sides, only one. Once it does and says "okay, you can cast it" the game no longer cares.
Note that since you're not casting them from your hand, you can't fuse it.
>>47359431
Okay, since you are helpful and gA left or you are gA and took off your tag, could you help me with these questions:
So, if by some ridiculous reason I was run in Selfless Exorcist and Yixlid was on the field, his reminder text would suddenly be accurate again? I'm still confused about the Jailer, given this ruling:
5/1/2007: If Mistform Ultimus is in the graveyard, the Ultimus will lose its ability that says "Mistform Ultimus is every creature type," but it will still *be* all creature types. The way continuous effects work, Mistform Ultimus's type-changing ability is applied before Yixlid Jailer's ability removes it.
Wouldn't other CDAs work the same way?
Anyway, if someone cast something like Comet Storm targeting me and my buddy for X=4 and I have a Battletide Alchemist and no other clerics, what is the max possible amount of damage I can prevent?
What if it was a Comet Storm targeting my Level 1 Hedron Field Purists and myself for X=2? How much then?
Sorry, had to drive home from work. Back now.
Is it possible to Reanimate/Exhume a Simic Sky Swallower?
>>47357917
Reminder text is no good. It wants the power of the card it removed, so it checks the power as it existed in the graveyard, which was 0.
>>47357944
Absolutely. You can only have one legendary of a given name on the BOARD at any time (without help), but you can have the full 4x in your deck.
>>47357997
Not sacrifice, just 'put into graveyard'. There's a difference!
>>47358137
Unearth doesn't replace it because it's already going to exile. Unearth sees that, shrugs, and moves on.
>>47358144
Poorly. The card goes to exile, and THEN the graveyard, assuming you choose not to cast it. Pitchstone Wall won't find it, because it went through another zone first, so it's a new object with no memory of, or relation to, the card Wall is looking for.
>>47358170
It's not a layers question. And they are 'retroactive' because they just make something TRUE of the game. You can only cast one spell per turn. Have you cast a spell? You're out of spells.
>>47358203
Not without help.
>>47358306
Whatever color the land was. Probably colorless. It doesn't give the land color.
>>47358326
Afraid you're mistaken about Wall. It's an utter non-bo with Madness now.
>>47358422
You're making the choices for them, but it's still THEM casting the spell.
>>47358424
Why would it? If it said "make it a COLORLESS Elemental" it would override existing colors, which is not the intended functionality. It doesn't say a color because it doesn't need to.
>>47358693
Wall loses track of it the second it goes to exile. It USED to work with Madness if you chose not to cast it, but it's never worked if you did cast it. It becomes a new object like, two times.
>>47358698
Nope. You all draw 1000, then SBAs are checked. SBAs aren't checked mid-spell.
>>47359017
Making Orb work on replacement effects would be a nightmare.
>>47359123
Yes.
>>47359180
The trigger went on the stack as soon as it was blocked. Removing it from combat does nothing to the trigger.
>>47359389
Yes and yes and yes
>>47359457
They would... if they applied in a layer before layer 6, like Ultimus' ability does. P/T defining CDAs work in layer 7a, one layer AFTER Yixlid Jailer strips em clean.
You can prevent X damage to each player, where X is your clerics. So, assuming the situation you first described, you can prevent 1 damage to you and 1 damage to him max.
With the second scenario, Purists will prevent one damage to itself and one to you, so each will take 1 damage. If you had Purists and Alchemist, you would take zero and your Purists would take one.
>>47359793
Sure. Shroud only works on the battlefield.
if a card would be exiled with circur, dimir lobotomist does he have to be on the field for his last ability to apply to cards exiled by him?
>>47359952
Does a Gaea's Anthem in your graveyard keep giving creatures +1/+1?
(Non-Socratic answer: yes. Continuous, non-specified-duration abilities printed on permanents do not continue on after they leave the battlefield)
>>47359902
Hm. I guess I am confused about what the word source means on Purists and Battletide. Since Comet Storm is one card, isn't it also one source?
>>47360088
It's one source of damage, yes. But it's hitting multiple things. See, to the game, Comet Storm doming you and your guy isn't "A source doing 8 damage". It's "A source doing 4 damage to that guy" and "A source doing 4 damage to that thing". Each one is a separate 'event' for the prevention effects to apply to.
>>47360118
Awesome. Thanks.
>>47359902
So, in order to know how Yixlid works in every corner case, I need to know layers. Gotcha.
>>47360708
Pretty much.
>>47360783
>>47360118
Oh, speaking of. If I have Embermaw Hellion in play and I cast Pyrotechnics, the amount of damage Pyrotechnics will deal depends entirely on the number of targets I choose, correct?
So, if I target 4 different things, I deal 8 damage spread out, but if I target 1 thing, I'll deal 5, correct?
A similar question is if I have two Embermaw Hellions in play and attack with a Ball Lightning, will that effectively mean that any blocks with creatures with 3 or less toughness will effectively only block 1 bit of damage?
So, a 4/4, a 3/3, a 2/2 blocking my Ball Lightning would absorb 4 damage and my ball lightning would go in for 4?
>>47360993
red sources you control don't "see" Embermaw's damage bonus. Your Ball Lightning would need to assign lethal to the creature's blocking it in whatever order you see fit, then Embermaw buffs the assigned damage by one, so know, you Ball Lightning is hella blocked and no damage goes through to your opponent.
>>47361313
Damn. I don't know why I bought otherwise. I guess I just assumed since it was a replacement.
But the creatures will take extra damage, right?
>>47362472
yes, you still have to assign them lethal without factoring the extra damage though.
>>47358137
im not sure if it actually works this way, but the way i think of it is that unearth actually DOES replace conjurer's closet exile with exile, but since its still exile, and conjurer's closet says return it to the battlefield (from exile), it returns anyway
alternatively you can say that unearth cant replace exile with "exile instead", because thats incoherent, which is more the official ruling i think
If a clone enters the battlefield at the same time as another creature (say due to Collected Company or something) can it copy that creature?
If my opponent scapeshifts into a valakut and 7 mountains, do they all trigger at the same time so I can respond with deflecting palm and deal him 21 instead of me?
>>47363033
no because those creatures enter the battlefield at the same time, and the copy must be determined already by that point or it wouldnt be able to enter the battlefield as a copy
Aaaand back from dinner.
>>47363054
they do all trigger at the same time, but the opponent chooses an order for them to resolve, and they resolve 1 at a time
deflecting palm says "the next time", so it only applies to one trigger
>>47363072
Thanks, that what I figured it would be. It looked too good to be true
>>47360993
>Embermaw Pyrotechnics
Right. It'll tick up the damage it does to each target by 1, so you can have it do anywhere between 5 and 8 total damage, depending on how many targets you're splitting it between.
>Hellion and Lightning
You have to assign lethal damage to the blocker before you can trample, and the game doesn't look far enough ahead to "know" that Hellion's adding +1 damage to that. If you throw Ball Lightning at them and they block with a 2/2, you have to assign 2 to the blocker before you can trample over, even though 1 damage SHOULD kill it. The creature will take 3 and your opponent will take 5.
>The blocking scenario you described
No trample at all. You can kill the 4/4 and the 2/2, or kill the 2/2 and the 3/3, but you can't kill all three of them and you can't trample over.
>>47363033
Nope. It can only choose from the creatures that were on board immediately BEFORE it enters.
>>47363054
They all trigger at once, but it's 7 different triggers, not one trigger that does 21. You'll divert 3 damage, then take the remaining 18 in three-damage chunks.
Haven't played fnm since the pre-release for SOI, here is my latest experience.
>be me at fnm tonight. there isn't enough players for standard until literally the last minute. only 8 of us show.
>buy 10$ of singles and my entry fee despite the fact that I have to pay an overdraft fee ontop of that.
>play with shitty ass 20$ memewolves deck. litterally 0-3 2-0'd all 3 matches. match 3 is vs drooling tard playin borrowed brains in a jar.
>notlikethis.jpg
>somehow get promo and guy from match 3 chooses slayers plate over drownyard temple.
>take only the temple, leave the rest.
>owner: "you have a really bad attitude, you sure you don't want this witch? she's pretty good."
>shows accursed witch. wut.jpg ensues
> "nah i'll pass, i'm gunna go home, got shit to deal with"
>MFW I'm buying shit when broke at their store that they are complaining people aren't coming out to events in the first place. I'm the bad guy.
Should just sell all the fucking cardboard dragons i own for 50$ at a yard sale next week. Least i get something out of it then.
>>47363219
out of all the questions that aren't rules questions, this one is not a rules question the most
>>47363255
To be fair, I've never disallowed non-rules questions. I just don't answer the ones I don't feel my opinion is helpful for.
I'm looking to get into MtG this summer with a friend. I know there's a few decent ways I can get into it, but what do you recommend? Should we try the online Magic (the newbie friendly one, I think. Not the one you can buy cards in) or just dick around with starter decks?
>>47363255
checked
Agreed, just venting.
Just tired of the bullshit.
>>47363010
As I already answered, Unearth says "when you leave play or at end of turn, go to exile". However, conjurer's closet already exiles it normally, so when unearth says "hey, you have to go to exile" the unearthed card actually hits the exiled zone, and unearth refuses to care.
The reason it works is because Unearth only checks that it touches exile, then doesn't give a fuck what happens after it tags up.
>>47363490
Duels of the Planeswalkers is a mostly free way to learn about the game and get a bit of understanding about it. It's on Steam, Xbox, and maybe PS4 as well?
Most local gaming shops that run sanctioned MTG events have beginner packs - 30 card half-decks that are designed to show you the basics of the colors, and give them out for free to new players.
Where you go from there depends a lot on how much time/money you want to invest, how competitive you are, and your skill level with games in general.
Judges deal with unsportsmanlike behavior stuff right?
>fnm
>I mainly just go to play magic not hang out
>never say more then pleasantries but its never been a problem
>playing some guy I'd never met before tonight
>talks nonstop game one
>never reply to him but he just keeps going
>during sideboard I say "could you please not talk as much? Its distracting."
>seems to get embarrassed for a second then goes off on me
>says things like "magic is a social game" and "saying that to me could get you a game loss for unsportsmanlike behavior."
>game two he is mostly silent making a few remarks about "reporting me."
Is this stuff legit? I'm never a dick or anything I'm just not really looking to have conversation while playing the game.
>>47363867
What you did was a bit cold but not even remotely out of line. If your opponent bitched at me for this, I'd tell him to shut up and play on.
Yes magic is a social game. Yes it can be really jarring for your opponent to ignore you. No it's not against any rules. He's blowing smoke up your ass, and it sounds like you kinda tilted him. Sucks to suck.
>>47363867
Dont be a dick about it. Acting like youre an elitist is kinda off-putting. Nobody wants to play with a powergamer autist.
>>47363867
> "saying that to me could get you a game loss for unsportsmanlike behavior."
1) there are only two penalties that can be issued at FNM: Caution, and DQ without prizes
2) He's more likely to get a penalty for USC for browbeating you with it.
3) gA is going to have my head if my list doesn't have at least 3 items.
>>47363678
cool so you just repeated exactly what that guy said but thought you were correcting him
nice job embarrassing yourself little fucking shit eating faggot :^)
>>47363867
Yes, we do. There is a penalty called Unsporting Conduct, but it really only applies in that form at Competitive and higher. "Not talking a lot" isn't unsporting; some people just aren't talkative when they play. It is against the rules to insult people or be a general dickhead, but it's not required that you carry on an animated conversation.
>>47364057
Technically we can Game Loss people for repeatedly doing the same thing, but it doesn't come up much.
>>47364115
There's no need for that, broseph.
Also it is nearly midnight and I'm fucking obliterated from the day I had. I'm gonna go to bed now- see you kids in the AM.
>>47363912
>>47363915
>>47364057
>>47364171
Good to know I won't get punished/penalties for what I did. I know I can come off as a cold/autistic powergamer type person but I'm really not, I'm just not really a social person and would rather just enjoy playing the game then push through small talk.
This has never been a problem before and I've been going to this place every Friday/Monday and every other Wednesday for just over 6 months now.
>>47364217
I WILL admit that the "silent stoneface" thing can be off-putting to people. It's not against any rules, and if people were griping about it in my shop I'd ask them to let it go, but just be aware that it came come across as aloof and dickish.
If a creature in hand or graveyard has a power/toughness of */*, does * = 0, or is it whatever the number would be if it was battlefield?
>>47364217
Its not illegal or bad, just dont expect people to like you a whole lot. Just playing along with the small talk can really make someones day.
T. Newbie
>>47364246
Would have to say 0
it's not in play, so it would have to otherwise state that this is the effect in XYZ zone.
example is shown.
>>47352836
How does Liliana, defiant necromancer last ability work? does this count token creatures? What if I have a Kalitas, Traitor? what happens?
>>47364246
It's a characteristic defining ability. The * will be whatever number that it told you.
Ex. if there's 10 cards in all graveyard, then Lord of Extinction is 10/10 in every zone and will change accordingly if there's change in cards in all graveyard.
>>47364377
Much better example here, ignore previous one.
>>47364405
1. A token can't return once it have left the battlefield so no.
2. Kalitas' is a replacement effect for your opponent's nontoken creatures so they never die, they're exiled instead. So you'll get 2/2 zombies.
What are the limitations for defining cards that are "outside the game," such as those referenced by Research and Spawnsire of Ulamog?
In particular, are you allowed more than 4 duplicate of cards from outside the game to be brought into the game?
>>47364454
Thanks mang
>>47364472
If it's a casual game, go crazy.
In a sanctioned game/tournament, outside the game is defined as your sideboard only.
>>47364472
In casual games you may grab any number of those eldrazi ex you have 6 it that betrays in other decks or just own them. You may cast all 6 if you are able to do so. Tournaments you are limited to your sideboard
>>47364530
Are you allowed more than 4 cards in your sideboard, provided that no more than 4 of them get into your main deck? If not, why?
>>47364577
Not unless they're basic lands.
why? because it's the rule.
>>47357737
Gitrog EDH guy again
Just to get this right: Commander is now a sanctioned format at LGS?
I mean we handed in our DCI numbers and played for prices/promos.
So this was a situation where you would have intervened?
If I attack with a Myr Battlesphere equipped with a Blade of Sleves, can I tap the Myrs created from the copied Battlespheres to pump the original?
>>47365854
Yes you can
Can you do things in your own untap step?
here's the sitch.
>Dragonmaster Outcast (with like 12 lands so he'll make a token)
>KikiJiki
>Taps Kiki in the untap step to copy Outcast before upkeep
>Outcast and copy outcast exist during upkeep and both make tokens
Is that a legit thing that can happen? it seems fishy?
Also when a number of cards enter at the same time together (such as Eerie Interlude), how does it work with ETBs?
Example: 2 Knights of the white orchid.
You have 3 lands, opp has 4
Both enter at the same time, both triggers go on the stack, and you get 2 lands, yes?
And Thalia's Lieutenant, if it enters with a bunch of other humans, do they all enter at the same time (meaning Lieutenant will get an assload of counters, and give all other humans an assload of counters)
Or, do you have to chose an order for the creatures to enter, but they enter "simultaneously" for other purposes?
In which case, you'd get 1 Knight of the White Orchid proc, the second one would fail because you and your opp both have 4 lands, and you'd either have to chose to give them Knights the +1/+1 counters OR have the Lieutenant enter first and get +1/+1 counters of it's own off of the knights entering?
>>47366380
>Outcast
The beginning of upkeep already passed, the copy of Outcast won't be triggering.
>White Orchid
Trigger 1 resolve, opponent have more land, you search for land and put it onto the battlefield.
Trigger 2 resolve, opponent does not have more land, it does nothing.
>Thalia
Yes they'll give counters to each other
>rules
There's no order. Everything enters at the same time and you decide which triggers enters the stack first.
>>47366426
I thought it went:
>untap
>upkeep
>Draw
>MP1
>combat
>MP2
>end
obviously skipping the different parts of combat?
cheers for the rest of the answers though!
So my opponent casts this in a 2 player game. Since targets are chosen before resolution, can i pick the exact same targets as my opponent?
>>47366680
yes, that's why that cards sucks so hard
>>47366520
Priority is not passed during untap phase, so nobody can really do anything during it. Once you're at upkeep, it's too late to copy the Dragonmaster since the ability has already triggered.
>>47366680
imo the order you chose is the same as printed in the card
first player that casted choses, then his opponent
>>47355804
>Nope.You are under no obligation to remind your opponent of his own triggers
Interesting. I've always gone on "if it doesn't say 'may' you HAVE to do it."
Also, if you have a deck and the one or two cards you do have warps mid tournament, are you obligated to buy new cards? What if you're midgame and somehow an expensive card becomes damaged due to bad shuffle and you don't have the cash for a new one?
I can stack tabernacle and nether spirit triggers so I don't have to pay for the spirit right?
>>47367017
There's literally no other way to do it. Tabernacle isn't "At the beginning of your upkeep, pay 1 for each creature"- it throws the ability ONTO the creatures themselves, and they trigger during your upkeep. At the time the triggers fire, Spirit is in your graveyard. It'll come back when the trigger resolves, but the time has since passed for the ability it now has from Tabernacle to trigger.
>>47366911
Oh, you can't intentionally miss your own triggers- that shit is cheating. But if you notice your opponent miss his own trigger, and you're okay with him not getting it, you can just keep your mouth shut. You're not obligated to babysit your opponent and help him beat you.
>Other question
You're obligated to un-mark them. If you can just kinda bend them back, you're fine. If not, you need to find replacements, or let a judge know and swap them out for basic lands. If the cards become DAMAGED during the event, talk to the HJ- he can issue you a proxy good for that event only.
Anything else not answered while I was gone?
>>47367410
thats the reason your opponents have to keep track of tabernacle triggers for themselves right?
>>47364246
In most cases, the same as if it was on the field. Those stars are linked to what we call a Characteristic Defining Ability, or CDA, and those work in all zones. The exception would be ones like Sewer Nemesis, who need a 'chosen player', and don't have one in zones other than the battlefield, so the values are undefined and spit out a 0.
>>47364377
>>47364427
You are mistaken. CDAs work in all zones.
>>47364405
>how work
Whenever something dies, bring it back under your control at the beginning of the next end step, assuming it's still in the graveyard.
>Tokens
Die, trigger the Emblem, then stop existing before the trigger even goes on the stack. When the delayed trigger it creates resolves, they find nothing and shrug and move on.
>Kalitas
Nothing died, it got exiled. Emblem has no trigger. You get zombies though!
>>47364472
Within a sanctioned event, 'outside the game' means your sideboard and only your sideboard. In a casual game, it means whatever you and your group decide it means.
>>47364577
Nope. You're only allowed a maximum of 4 copies of a given non-basic-land-card across your full deck and sideboard, unless that card is Relentless Rats or Shadowborn Apostle.
>>473651837
Commander is an option for "Casual FNM" now, yes. You get exactly one PWP, and I'm pretty sure they can give you FNM promos, but WPN stuff isn't my strong suit.
>>47365854
Sure, if you order the triggers right. You won't be able to tap the new Battlespheres, obviously, but you can tap the Myrbabies they make.
>>47366380
No. Nobody gets priority during untap, ever. If something triggers during untap, the game just makes that trigger wait until the Upkeep.
>>47367480
Yep- because it's on THEIR thing, which means it's THEIR trigger, not yours. Even though your Tabernacle is the thing giving the ability.
Not exactly a rules question, but what is the optimal time to wasteland someone going for the stage dark depths thing
>>47367505
If by "Dark Depths thing" you mean them copying a Dark Depths with their Thespian's Stage? In response to the activation of Stage. That ability will be on the stack targeting Depths- if you hit Depths with Wasteland, the ability will fizzle since it has no legal target, and they'll just have a tapped Stage. If you hit Stage, the ability will resolve and do fuck-all since Stage isn't on board, so they'll just have a Depths. Either way, popping one of the lands in response to the activation means no Marit Lage at that moment.
>>47367522
I was told there was a way to get both lands
>>47367522
Can you not Wasteland the Thespian's Stage after it has copied the Dark Depths andthey've sacced their original Dark Depths, in response to the sacrifice trigger?
>>47367536
You know what, there is, and I totally missed it.
Dark Depths triggers when it has no ice counters, and you don't get the Marit Lage unless you sacrifice it to that trigger. So what you do is allow the activation of their Stage to resolve, copying Depths. They now have two Dark Depths and have to put one into the graveyard, because Legendary. They'll put the original away, and then put the copy's "I have no ice counters" trigger on the stack. With that trigger on the stack, pop it with a Wasteland. Trigger resolves, they can't sac the land since it's already dead, no Marit Lage.
My bad! I really should learn to RTFC.
>>47367564
You absolutely can. I somehow had 'remembered' Dark Depths as being "When ~ is put into the graveyard from the battlefield, if it had no ice counters on it, you get a Marit Lage", rather than the Marit Lage being tied to saccing it to the trigger. So in my head, I was thinking if you waited for the legend rule and popped it, they'd still get the Marit Lage.
RTFC, gA.
The better question is: Why would you go for the Dark Depths combo when they have a Wasteland?
>>47367868
"Make them have it"?
You have a Stifle in your hand?
>>47367492
A follow up question to >>47364246
Say I cast this to counter Serra Avatar, it would deal * = life total dmg to the caster
>>47367868
you could crop rotate for the wasteland in response
or maybe you're dead anyway and you may as well give them the chance to forget they have a wasteland
>>47367492
(Kiki guy)
Thanks for the clarity, I had a feeling it was shifty and no bueno but don't have the in-depth knowledge of priority and whatnot say it doesn't work with a knowledgeable justification
Really fucking stupid question here.
So, last time I read the legend rule, it stated that you "put" the card in the graveyard. Not that you sacrifice it.
Is this really how it works? So, for example, playing a Linvala, The Preserver while you already have a Linvala the Preserver out will force one to the graveyard, but will it count as a death for Lilian, Heretical Healer?
Additionally, will it count as a sacrificed permanent for Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest?
>>47368383
Yep. Serra Avatar's power and toughness are equal to the life total of the controller while it's on the board, and the owner in every other zone. Tagging it with an Essence Backlash will kill them.
>>47368491
That is how it works. It isn't a sacrifice for exactly that reason- it's just "put it in the graveyard". It won't trigger a Mazirek, but it WILL trigger a Liliana, because the definition of 'dies' is just 'is put into a graveyard from the battlefield', which your second Linvala was.
>>47368537
Okay, beautiful, thanks!
(Legend rule guy)
What happens if a creature has two sets of P/T, like if Dryad Arbor/Stalking Stones gets Awakened, or a Myr gets Ensoul Artifact cast on it? Do you take the highest P/T, the newest effect, or the oldest one?
>>47368697
I believe you use the most recent P/T, so if a Dryad Arbor get's Awakened, it will become a 0/0 land, and then gain counters. And, of course, the Myr will get a bump straight up to 5/5 (But can lose it if ensoul artefact drops off)
Does asylum visitor's "Check hand size" thing go on the stack?
If I have a single card in hand (swamp) and a mad prophet, can I discard to the prophet with the visitor's trigger on the stack then cast an instant (that I drew off the prophet) to empty hand size to zero and get the trigger off of visitor?
>>47369338
yes and yes you can
>>47368932
That makes me want to do an Awaken/Ensoul Artifact deck with Seat of the Synod and other artifact lands.
>>47369442
In a similar vein, can I stack Sea Gate Wreckage triggers so that with no cards in hand I can activate one, and with that one the stack activate another since I still have no cards in hand? And draw 2 cards?
>>47369553
I believe most people do it with Darksteel Citadels so it's an indestructible 5/5 that can attack on turn 2 if you're lucky
>>47369672
Yes you can mainly because the restriction is only on the activation of the ability.
>>47370017
Awesome, thanks.
And is this different to the previous example using Knight of the White Orchids because Knight's ability checks land numbers as it resolves?
>>47368697
The "set the P/T" effect from Awaken will override the existing P/T. If you Awaken a Stalking Stones, and then pay 6 to activate it again, the 0/0 gets overridden by the 3/3.
Throwing Ensoul Artifact onto an artifact creature sets the base P/T to 5/5, overriding the printed (or any current PT setting effects)
>>47369338
Yes. It goes on the stack only if the condition is true at the time it should trigger. If you have a card in your hand as the upkeep begins, Visitor won't even trigger.
If it DOES trigger, then you get a card into your hand, you can get rid of it before the trigger and be fine, because it'll check again on resolution.
>>47369442
Incorrect.
>>47369672
Sea Gate only cares how many cards you have in hand as you activate it. If you can activate it multiple times while hellbent, you'll draw a card from each one.
>>47370308
It's different from Knight and Visitor because those are triggered abilities with an intervening if clause, and this is an activated ability with a restriction on when you can activate it.
>>47370334
Sorry, always stumped in determining whether it's an intervening if or not.
>>47370410
Well, it's fairly easy! First, they literally only ever exist on triggers. Second, they're always worded as "When/whenever/at [TRIGGER EVENT], if [CONDITION], [EFFECT]".
The "if condition" part has to immediately follow the trigger condition; anything else is just "if" having its normal English meaning. So, let's look at Knight:
"When Knight of the White Orchid enters the battlefield, IF an opponent controls more lands than you, you may search your library for a Plains card, put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library". The "if an opponent controls more lands" bit immediately follows the trigger event, so it's an intervening if. It has to be true at the time the Knight enters, and as the ability resolves.
>>47370557
So, to reiterate with the knight thing (going back to the 2 knights, you 3 lands opp 4 lands thing)
Both Knights enter, both abilities trigger, because it's an ETB and your opponent has 1 more land than you do. First knight's ability resolves, checks the land difference, you get your plains, lands are now 4-4. Second Knight's ability tries to resolve, checks lands, your opponent does not control more lands than you, the effect does nothing?
Sorry to be so persistent with this, I want to be able to explain it in a crystal clear manner to my opponent.
>>47370613
Exactly. Since the "if an opponent has more lands" condition is true when the triggers trigger, the intervening-if clause doesn't stop anything and the triggers go on the stack. First one resolves, you still have fewer lands, so you get a land. Second one goes to resolve, the intervening-if clause is checked, comes back false, so the ability is removed from the stack and does nothing. It's fine for the condition to be false inbetween the trigger triggering and resolving, but it has to be true when it triggers and when it resolves.
>>47370667
Great, thanks, that helps a lot man!
>>47370667
So if my knight of the white orchids enter and both trigger, I'm on 3 lands, and my opponent on 4, is there any point I can activate a knight of the reliquary to end up with 5 lands?
>>47370557
> anything else is just "if" having its normal English meaning.
I see. i guess this is what confuses me.
>>47371259
You can't. Reliquary's ability does not decrease your land count.
>>47370667
If some cards controlled by this one are attacking me and I kill it the cards return to me attacking enemy or they just return tapped and do nothing?
>>47371492
I mean the willbreaker
>>47371476
They return tapped since you can't attack the enemy during his turn.
>>47371476
If the attacking player loses control of an attacking creature it becomes removed from combat. I'd cite the rule, but I can't be bothered.
>>47371476
Sorry i misunderstand your question.
The controlled creature will return back to it's owner's control, tapped (if it taps to attack) and removed from combat.
If it's yours then yeah, it will return back to you tapped and removed from combat.
Do overloaded spells 'target'? Cannot find a clear ruling.
>>47372610
No it doesn't.
>>47372610
Like Vandalblast? Nope!
>>47372667
Lordy that was nice and fast. Thanks!
>>47371259
Only if you use Knight to sac a land and don't find another one.
>>47371476
They come back tapped and removed from combat. Changing controllers removes things from combat.
>>47372610
Overloaded spells replace all instances of the word "TARGET" on the spell with the word "ALL". You announce your intent to Overload before you choose targets, so there's never a point where an overloaded spell targets.
If I have a creature that gets targeted by a grasp of darkness and I use an instant to give it hexproof does that mean the grasp of darkness fizzles out, works, or gets to pick a new target?
>>47372924
Fizzles. You never get to pick new targets because your initial one became illegal. The spell will try to resolve and fail since it has no legal target, and be countered by the rules of the game.
>>47372960
But what if that same player has a sphinx of the final word on the field.
>>47373001
>Countered by the rules of the game
>Can't be countered by spells or abilities
Good thing the rules of the game are neither a spell nor an ability.
>>47372960
I lurk in every single one of these threads, and even though I never have a good question, I appreciate that they exist. Keep on keeping on man.
>>47352836
Back at the Shadows Pre-release during a Two Headed Giants game I had a situation where I played a creature (during my team's first main phase), but the opposing team wouldn't respond to it, but also not letting it resolve, until after what my partner was going to play, still during our main phase, saying something along the lines of "oh it all resolves at once".
This doesn't seem right at all. I play a creature, that goes on the stack, and until that resolves only stuff at instant speed can happen, right? My partner can't cast a creature without Flash until my creature resolves, so they cannot wait to see if he casts a creature to see if they want to want to let mine resolve, right?
They only reason I didn't call a judge over at the time is because they ended up not doing anything that turn, and we eventually won that game, coming behind from a 28 life difference.
>>47373022
Happy you enjoy them!
>>47373038
>the only reason I didn't call a judge over
One of my least favorite sentences. There's very few good reasons not to call a Judge, because it's pretty much 100% upside unless you're currently cheating. If your opponents and you cannot agree on reality, call a Judge. Period.
Anyway- they're wrong. You share a life total and a turn structure, but you're still distinct players. You don't both cast your spells at once and have it 'resolve all at once' because that's ridiculous.
>>47373016
Mind = blown. I tried to find a card that disagreed, but couldn't. I never knew that fizzling spells were actually being countered.
>>47373016
What if the spell is one that has "cannot be countered".?
>>47373075
Thanks, I will definitely keep that in mind next time. I usually only play with friends, there's not even a place that does DCI play within 70 miles of me, so I was kinda timid about calling a judge as well.
But thanks for clearing that up for me. It's been bothering me for awhile, even if we did have a sweet comeback.
>>47373144
Yep! It's also why you see "Can't be countered by spells or abilities" with regards to instants and sorceries, but just "can't be countered" on creatures. Creature spells, by definition, never target anything, so the rules of the game are never going to try to counter a creature spell. Thus, the 'by spells or abilities' rider isn't necessary there.
>>47373164
Then I'd wonder how the hell you cast a creature spell targeting something.
>>47371446
>You can't. Reliquary's ability does not decrease your land count.
Sure it does. Between activating KotR's ability and it resolving, you're down a land. If you can somehow get your KoWOs' abilities on the stack in that time, you'll end up at 5 lands when the stack empties.
"At the beginning of each upkeep, if no spells were cast last turn transform this guy."
I know that for the purposes of counter spelling a creature while it is on the stack it is considered a spell.
What I am interested to know is if playing creatures does or does not count towards this guy's (or similiar ones) effect.
90% sure it does count, but just asking.
>>47352836
How do your feel about magic's climbing price tag?
There's some decks I'm interested in, but 3,300 USD for shardless sultai just makes it a no-go.
>>47373622
Creature spells are still spells. But if you were to put a creature into play using an activated ability, like Æther Vial, that would not be a spell.
>>47373737
What is this Æther Vial you speak of?
It's called Aether Vial now.
>>47373696
get a job, hippie
>>47373778
Gatherer says the card name is Æther Vial.
>>47373696
standard decks that cost 200-600$ that rotate out every 6 months will destroy standard.
modern decks that cost 750-2500$ just to be "playable" will destroy mdern.
MTG finance is fucking cancer and will kill all of magic if left unchecked.
there are too many poor players, and not enough rich millenials who want to actually play.
They just fired the old CEO a few weeks ago, that should tell you something about the state of the games future.
>>47373622
A card is referred to as different things depending on which zone it is in. Battlefield - permanent. Stack - spell. Library, exile, hand, graveyard - Card.
So a grizzly bears is a card when you draw it, a spell when you play it, and a permanent when it resolves. In other words, all cards are spells when they're on the stack.
How does Bloodmoon affect an awakened land or a dryad arbor? Do they stay 0/0 and 1/1 creatures?
Can you regenerate a sacrificed creature? (Augur of Skulls)
>>47374939
Blood Moon makes them a mountain instead of any other subtypes and removes all abilities printed on the card. It doesn't do anything to P/T and existence as a creature because those aren't printed abilities. Dryad Arbor, for example, is now a 1/1 Land Creature - Mountain. It can tap for R.
>>47374947
No. Regeneration only prevents "destruction" which saccing is not.
>>47375124
>Blood Moon makes them a mountain instead of any other subtypes and removes all abilities printed on the card. It doesn't do anything to P/T and existence as a creature because those aren't printed abilities. Dryad Arbor, for example, is now a 1/1 Land Creature - Mountain. It can tap for R.
Does it remove the haste from the awakened lands, though?
>>47352836
Sorry in advance if these are common questions, I'm new and haven't seen the answers before.
So, if my opponent casts lightning axe at a topplegeist I control, can I cast essence flux on the topplegeist and avoid the damage?
Can creature activated abilities be cast like instances?
If no, can something like rattlechains which gives spirits flash, would it allow a spirit's activated ability to be cast like an instant?
And final question, similar to the first, and assuming you can cast activated abilities anytime. Could I use spectral shepherd to put topplegeist back into my hand and avoid the damage from lightning axe?
Sorry for the long string of questions, but thank you very much in advance.
>>47376183
Yes, the toppler will enter the battlefield as a new permanent and the lightning axe will no longer have a valid target.
They can be used as instants unless they state they can only be used as sorceries.
Flash doesn't interact with activated abilities.
Yes, he can bounce your toppler to your hand to avoid the damage.
So i have Glacial Chasm out, and my buddy attacks me with a creature which has a "when this creature deals damage to an opponent, trigger happens" and he was positive that the creature deals the damage to me, the trigger happens and then Chasm just reduces it to 0. Is he correct? I have the Ice Age one, and on that card it says "all damage dealt to you is reduced to 0" that is why we where confused, this is probably a stupid question, but i just had to ask.
Sorry about that, went out to play some Commander! Back now.
>>47377866
What commander did you play?
>>47373420
>When the stack empties
The stack doesn't "empty" like that. Objects on the stack resolve, one at a time. If you're at 3 lands and drop two Knights at the same time, you absolutely can use Reliquary in between Orchid triggers, but you'll go down from 4 to 3... then back to 4, so the other Orchid trigger won't do anything. The only way Reliquary 'helps' there is to pop a land and not find one so that the second Orchid trigger puts you back up to 4. There's no way I can think of to do double-Orchid + Reliquary to go from "Down one land" to "up one land" compared to your opponent.
>>47373622
It cares about spells being CAST, not spells RESOLVING. And yes, casting a creature spell is casting a spell.
>>47373696
I'm not a fan of the ever-rising cost of Modern. I don't like how random buyouts can permanently raise a card's price even after the buyout fades due to 'price memory'. I feel like speculation is hurting the game.
>>47373854
And it will be. For now.
>>47373998
To be fair, the CEO doesn't exactly control the secondary market. And at least between I believe Alara or original Zendikar, and Battle for Zendikar, every single 'first' set of a block broke the previous set's records for most packs sold. Plus tournament attendance is way up.
>>47374939
It overrides all their natural abilities with "T: Add R" and changes their Subtypes (if they had any) to Mountain, but it doesn't make them NOT a creature.
>>47374947
No. Regeneration only works on destruction events.
>>47375191
Hilariously, no.
>>47376183
>First thing
Yes.
>Second thing
Instants, not instances. And yes. Activated abilities can be activated any time you have priority unless they (or the rules associated with their keyword, like Equip) explicitly say otherwise.
>Third thing
For SIMILAR things, no. The activated abilities that have the 'only when you could cast a sorcery' restriction never have that timing change, unless something says so about the ability itself
>Fourth thing
Yes
>>47378004
>Hilariously, no.
Why not? Can you explain?
>>47377850
Glacial Chasm prevents the damage. It isn't "Deal damage, then reduce", it's literally "the damage does not happen at all". Dealing 0 combat damage doesn't count as dealing damage, so things that trigger on damage won't trigger.
>>47377967
Gitrog Monster. I finalized my initial build this week, proxied what I didn't have, and took it to the shop to get a few test games in. I like it so far.
>>47378021
So, setting a land's subtype to a basic land type will override all existing land types, all abilities the card has from its rules text, and any copy effects on it, because this all happens in Layer 4, and turning something into a basic land has extra weird rules baggage.
Giving the land haste happens in layer 6, which is two layers AFTER 305.7 strips away all abilities on the land, so it gets to stay.
If someone casts a enchantment creature as an aura spell (The bestow ability) can that spell be countered as if it were not a creature spell (with negate)?
>>47378027
>Gitrog Monster.
What are you wincons in that deck?
>>47378142
It's NOT a creature spell. If they cast it via Bestow, then it's an Aura.
>>47378146
Titania, Zendikar's Roil, Avenger of Zendikar, Mazirek, Jarad, Terravore, Centaur Vinecrasher, Lord of Extinction, general froggy beats.
>>47378247
no infinite card draw->infinite mana->giant exsanguinate combo?
>>47378278
Well, I can. It's just dodgy and takes like ten cards.
Skirge Familiar + Dakmor Salvage = mill entire deck (discard Salvage for B, trigger Gitrog, Dredge 2, repeat) and get a ton of black mana, but it's not 'infinite' because I can't guarantee a way to keep it going past "the number of cards in my deck" with the current build. If I have an Elixir of Immortality on board I can reset once, but then it's hard to guarantee I can do it again.
>>47378380
Could put an eldrazi titan in as decking protection instead of the Elixir.
>>47378439
Probably the better option, plus an extra finisher. I usually only keep instant-win combos in my deck as a panic button rather than an actual dedicated win-con, though.
>>47378542
Testing something with an extension.
>>47378666
Dammit. Not sure I like appchan. Trying again...
>>47352836
If I cast a spell but is countered, would Pyre Hound's effect still trigger?
>>47383117
Yes it will.
>>47383117
You cast the spell, you put the hounds trigger on the stack. The other person can go to counter the spell before or after the hounds trigger resolves, but they can't stop that trigger by countering the spell
2 questions:
Newb question- Can I/my opponent sac indestructible permanents?
Main question: If I have Athreos on the field, and my opponent has a Kalitas and a flip Liliana emblem. If one of my creatures dies then who gets my creature, if anyone?
>>47383736
1. Yes you can
2. Since your opponent's Kalitas' ability is a replacement effect, your creature never dies, they're exiled instead and then your opponent gets a 2/2 zombie per exiled creature.
>>47383736
1) Yes. Indestructible stops destroying effects that say "destroy", and by damage, Nothing Else.
2) Your opponent gets a 2/2 zombie.
Kalitas has a so called replacement effect,
>If a nontoken creature an opponent controls would die, instead exile that card and put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield.
these replacements effect can be recognized by "if something, another thing instead". Because kalitas replaces your creature dying with exiling it and getting a zombie, the emblem and athreos will never trigger.
if Kalitas AND it is your turn, first the athreos effect would happen, and if your opponent didnt pay three life, you get it back in hand.
If it wasn't your turn, first the emblem trigger would happen, then your opponent gets to pay three life, if he does, he gets it at the next turn, otherwise you get it in hand.
If your opponent did pay three life, your opponent gets it next turn.
athreos "tax or return"
