How would go about making a campaign where the eldritch horrors are actually the heroes?
>>47325294
http://store.steampowered.com/app/107310/
Bill the "Eldritch Horrors" as Old Gods wake up from a several Millennium long nap, for starters.
Next, the world needs to be shit for one reason or another. A Totalitarian Theology oppressing everyone, Capitalist Wasteland, Post-Apocalyptic feral humanity. Doesn't really matter what, but it needs to be shitty.
Then the players are Gods trying to get their worship back, so they need to do stuff. Help people, smite their enemies, whatever.
That's apparently one version of the story of the Mindflayers.
They're humans from the distant future, a future where humans wound up destroying the universe, so they've gone back in time not only just so they can survive, but to try and make it so that humans don't destroy everything this time.
Eating their brains is apparently the best idea they've had so far.
>>47325294
What the fuck is that.
>>47325294
eldritch horrors fighting things that are even more eldritch and horror then they are.
eldritch horrors who think normal mortal races are Kinda Cute and get real sad when bad things haen to them.
eldritch horror starts fucking up with humans so the others ones get all pissy with all the noise he's making and go to stop them.
>>47325493
Thirty seconds of Google tells me it's a "pile worm".
>>47325294
Doom.
>>47325294
Eternal Darkness kind of did something like that though it was more "Align yourself with an eldritch being to stop an even worse eldritch being."
>>47325746
Mat was also technically a good guy, though it's impossible to tell.
He most certainly did set shit up so that all the gods kill each other at the same time, removing them as a threat.
>>47325646
>eldritch horror actually likes mortals and drops his spaghetti when he tries to meet with them becaus ethey all freak the fuck out
>>47325294
Unlike all other living creatures, Eldrich horrors devolve instead of evolve. In the beginning, they were perfect, and now, they are pitiful.
After Eons of observing the universe as gods unfathomable, the Old Things have been forced to take permanent physical form - to breath air and feel pain and struggle every day to survive - and have been stranded on earth.
There they will remain, living out their last eternity in panic and fear, waiting for the inevitable day that they devolve to the form of a single grain of sand, and willing to do anything to delay this grisly fait by even a single second.
Roll characters.
>>47325806
Sounds like nWoD: Mummy.
I like it.
After they devolve out of being a grain of sand, do they reincarnate into perfect beings again?
The eldritch horrors are pretty nice guys in bloodborne, only problem is the protaganists are total cunts
>>47325294
After the stars go right, all the normal humans are dead. The children and champions of the Old Ones duke it out over what's left for the glory of their Master.
>>47325294
>President Trump
>>47325294
By realizing that humans are eldritch abominations.
>>47325796
Really? I've only seen one lets play of it so I don't actually know a whole lot about it. Pargon is power though.
Simple: Make it so the eldritch horrors are in the right. Make it an undeniable fact in your campaign that everyone is better off being insane, unreasoning things driven by instinct and emotionless calculation with no middle ground in between. This is actually very easy to accomplish in Warhammer 40k, since you could make a valid argument that the universe would be better off ending.
>>47325909
If you actually play through the game three times, choosing the three different gods, you find out that he split the timeline to cause this to happen, and then merges it again when each one kills the other, leaving all three of them dead.
>>47325294
>>47325357
How about the eldritch horror Old Gods wake up to find that several mortals have ascended to godhood and created seasons and old age as a means to control mortals, holding the world hostage to get power from prayers. The new gods may not be all bad, but they've corrupted the system and the Old Gods need to wipe the slate clean and start over to fix the problem.
>>47325939
Oh that is cool.
>>47325294
Cast the players as minor spirits instead of old gods.
Or you could have a game with a power level so high entire realities are manipulated every session.
>>47325949
I dig it.
Build up enough power so you bitchslap Yahweh and Vishna at the same time.
>>47325837
They do not know, but they have ben discussing this topic ever since they were aware their single flaw.
Some believe that their eventual death are just heralding their reincarnation, and when this universe dies, they shall be reborn in their original forms (which were more akin to sentient planes of existence rather than what we would traditionally consider a living entity).
Others say that this death is permanent and absolute - in fact, every single grain of sand or other particle in the universe is the corpse of a single Old Thing, which have been accumulating for a time even incomprehensible to beings as great as they.Only the Old Thing known as El, both to his fellow Old Things and to the many humans who worship him, has come close to an answer. Of all the old things, only he is humble enough to comprehend that one may find infinity in a grain of sand, or eternity in an hour.
>>47325294
Imagine you've been sleeping at the bottom of the ocean for millennium. Little bits have been breaking off of you forever, eventually changing and developing wills of their own, living out their own little lives across the world you're using for your nap. In your dreams you live the lives of these tiny fragments of your magnificence alongside them. It is good.
Then some motherfucker from out of space and out of town drops on you like the wrath of god, interrupting your nap, and hits you so hard you're reduced to a few separate fragments of your former self. Then it sets itself up in your sunken city and starts screwing around with all the funny little lifeforms that, for a time, were also you.
>>47325949
You know, Deep Ones might be freaky fish people but they are actually immortal and seem to live pretty good lives.
Maybe man was never meant to leave the sea, but was deceived by the Earth Gods and coaxed out.
>>47326005
Fucking deep man.
>>47326024
I like this. Each shard that is left becomes another PC
Make them relatable and not "So unimaginably horrifying that your eyes melt and your brain oozes out of your ears".
>>47325493
Bobbitt Worm I think
>>47326005
>infinity in a grain of sand, or eternity in an hour
Real close there, m8. It's see a world in a grain of sand.
They ruled here first before us, and will rule here after us.
We are the usurpers.
All we value is bunk, illegal, or wrong in the maladaptive sense for the rest of the universe and the "real laws" of physics/nature.
Vanilla Eldritch horror.
Done.
Basically alienate the players from their humanity by making it objectively and morally undesirable to be human.
>>47326275
Shit
Well, serves me right for not looking up the damn quote first.
>>47326131
I don't trust the Deep Ones. They're too attached to their gods, they're basically slaves. The Yithians and Elder Things are much more noble people.
>>47326005
Semetic good too strong
>>47326381
Meh. I always like the "god = benevolent eldrich horror" explanation in fiction. In my experience, it has very few flaws.
>Religious people like it: it proves that god exists
>Fedorafags like it: it proves that god is not infaliable
>Newer fans of cosmic horror like it: it eases them in by giving them at least one faint example of hope and benevolence
>Older fans of cosmic horror like it - or, at least I do
>>47326289
>You're evil for being born
Great. You've just made the eldritch horrid the BBEGs
>>47325294
By not fucking doing it and nit missing the entire point of 'eldritch horrors'.
>>47326693
>>47326310
>Yith
Body swapping autists.
>Elder Things
Got killed by their construction equipment.
>>47326900
And both lasted far longer than humanity will.
The Yithians apparently forever.
>>47326971
And the Deep Ones will live forever in eternall bliss in their abyssal homes.
>>47326988
So they say, but I think modern humanity could take them.
Guns and bombs do the trick well enough, and we'll see how invincible their cities are after a nuke or two.
>>47327078
They blew up a reef. Nothing more.
>>47325294
There was a quest in BG2 where you had to enlist the aid ofan illithidin order to save a little girl's life.Though later in the game you butcher its entire organization holed up in the city sewers so you can get the component to the strongest weapon in the base game.
They want to uplift humans to their own level, but they haven't quite gotten the hang of it yet.
>>47327160
best girl
>>47327091
They killed enough that they left, and burned a shoggoth or two. They also captured a decent amount, if the book is anything to go off of. It even mentions that Y'ha-Nthlei was hurt, but not destroyed. One pre-WW2 sub was able to damage the city, imagine what modern nuclear boats could do.
They might be millions, but they apparently don't have guns or vehicles and they go down to bullets like anything else. The Mi-Go and Cthulhu Spawn have the bonus of being extra-corporeal and partly immune to conventional arms, but you could easily blow up or stab a Deep One.
>>47325294
I'm currently working on a setting where the Eldritch Horrors aren't necessarily the heroes, but they're a lot more appealing for most people than what's in direct opposition to them. They're a lot more emotional, both in a human and non-human way. They love, they hate, they can even be afraid given enough threat. That's why the global cults dedicated to them are a lot more numerous than those dedicated to their enemies, they appeal to people's base feelings to gain worship and aid.
>>47325673
>>47326241
>>47325493
It's a ragworm, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nereididae, pretty cool little guys, I use them as bait when fishing, hurts like fuck if they bite you with their pincers though
The Whispered (Whispering?) Vault rpg sounds close, although your PCS are more akin to the endless from the Sandman series than eldritch horrors
>>47327199
The real risk is their indirect influence and potential human "cultists" supporting them with tech and knowledge.
Think War With The Newts, minus nazi negro symbolism.
After being defeated, Those Who Exist Beyond in their infinite benevolence decided to give you a chance to redeem yourself by breaking you into individual fragments.
Although exalted, each fragment is bound to a mortal existence to learn and understand and to obtain enlightenment and absolution in their own way.
When each fragment has achieved such a state then when you will be made whole and ascended.
>>47325294
>How would go about making a campaign where the eldritch horrors are actually the heroes?
Just read any of Lovecraft's stories about the Deep Ones.
>>47325294
>http://store.steampowered.com/app/107310/
Where is that gif from?
Aliens from another dimension invade Earth. Old Gods don't want their favorite little playground ruined. Fighting ensues.
>>47327691
Basically the main idea of a setting/system I'm working on, except the Aliens are Skynet/the Matrix.
>>47325294
today there is an uneasy truce between the deep ones and other horros and humanity. Not all the nuclear testing in the pacific was really testing. Neither side wants mutually the assured destruction that would come with another invasion from the deep. The illuminaty are secret peacekeeping enforcers.
suddenly que the alien invasion, we may not like the humans very much. but damnit this is our planet and we aint gonna let the greys get their hands on our oceans.
>>47325294
Nightbane rpg
>>47325384 Wrongaroony.
They're from the distant future, a future where mindflayers deliberately destroyed the sun, so they've gone back in time not only just so they can survive, but to try to have blow up the sun twice.
>>47328064
>lets try set up a paradox
wow mindflayers that seems like a great idea.
>>47328064
Why do they hate the sun so much?
There's ordinary hate, and then there's "I loved killing you so much, I went back in time to do it again" hatred.
>>47328425
You know how Kratos was so angry he stabbed people for three whole games?
About that angry.
>>47328064
>mindflayers blew up the sun
>they want to do it again
Why?
>>47328425
>>47328653
fuck the sun
that's way
>>47325806
I think I've seen something like that before.
>>47325294
Make them into qt girls
>>47330040
Just when I think I have an original idea...
>>47330241
Well it's not like that's EXACTLY what happens. Despite being stuck in physical form, it still has immortality. Before manifesting, it didn't interact with the world and didn't possess self awareness. It's the only one of its kind and has no knowledge of its own nature.
>>47325294
Ever had the hate about that HFY boner of /tg/?
Put that into full effect, until said humans manage to intrude/rape/breach/invite/omnigoogle the Outer Realms.
Enough is enough, time to put those 4D upstarts into their place.
Armor your tentacles, grab the entropic axe, wield your dimensional shield and defend your Sea of Chaos from that bunch of plastic and metal things they try to pass by like if your home was some kind of shorcut.
I have two ideas
>An ancient evil eldritch horror is locked away for eons in a dark box by the gods
>At first hes angry, cursing the gods and swearing to burn the earth in madness and darkness forever when he is free
>Then a thousand years pass, and that anger starts to subside as time blends into infinity, at least in that dark box
>Several thousand years pass, the old one in the box no longer knows how long hes been in imprisoned
>He starts to get scared
>As ages come and go, that fear begins to build into terror, and despair, ironically the great ancient evil is afraid of never being freed from this dark box
>After what is probably a millenia in the box he begs to be free, saying he will turn over a new leaf and help the world
>Cue modern era, the box is unearthed and the old one comes in contact with a human, and now free once more, decides to stick with his promise, and turns to being a hero with his ancient eldritch powers.
Alternatively
>An old one Batman, an eldritch horror that works to make other horrors fear it, to keep them in line and not devouring humanities sanity
Do it WoD-style. There's even bigger, scarier eldritch horrors that these ones are trying to stop.
This is actually the story to Bloodborne. Most of the Eldritch beings are basically good. You actually have to reach out and attack one that is keeping people sane and another that is praying for their dead friend.
It's the Humans you have to look out for. Most of them are actively wanting to kill you, and the rest are more than okay with your death if it helps their cause.
I know people keep using the ant comparison when contrasting humans and Eldritch beings, but what if they just bring something nice?
>>47330753
Well, Rom is also hiding the truth of the problem. Similarly, the Moon Presence is actually causing all the problems you encounter for apparently no reason, so it's not like they're all peaceful.
>>47328653
Literally no reason since they arent even light sensitive.
They just did it for shit and giggles or because the sun had no brain.
>>47330825
Even Kos caused some problems, but not as bad as the action/reaction of the Hunters and Byrgenworth.
>>47326509
I like your style of justifying your explanation:
>The first group likes it for reasons
>The second group likes it for reasons
>The third group likes it for reasons
>The fourth group, of which I am a part, likes it ... because I like it and I'm a part of it
>>47330825
The moon pressence is basically being an agrevatoing shitter to have someone come kill him. Causing something bad to lure out a worthy hunter(/king/ choosen undead. Its a common theme in fromsofts games). Because apparently death is only a natural thing in the elder things life cycle.
Still a dick thing to do but its not exactly without a greater goal.
>>47330861
Kos's only crime was that she died and was beached on the shore of a fishing hamlet. Perhaps she died for the sake of the fishermen? Who knows.
>>47331711
For all we know the Moon Presence's purposes could be exactly what was being said the entire time throughout the story: Every Great One yearns for a child. So perhaps for the Moon Presence Gherman took the place of the child and when you kill him the moon presence simply replacces him with you unless you ingested the three thirds cords
Perhaps already suggested umpteen times, but here it goes...
IF we take something like 1984, advanced along a few steps to where Newspeak is the only language for basically anyone, and the doublethink is how everyone thinks all the time.
Shattering the wall in the head of people that allows for doublethink would probably leave a trail of broken madmen behind, and likewise restoring a "proper" language could be akin to an infectious "madness" that allows people to form and express ideas and fundamental truths about reality that you can't even think in Newspeak. This too would probably leave a lot of depressed husks behind as people get to grips with just how fucked things are.
Add in Big Brother propaganda and this is of course the most unnatural abomination unimaginable.
Translating this over to fantasy or SciFi or pretty much whatever probably wouldn't be all that hard.
So now the PCs are running around, trying to overthrow the system for good and justice, or to become evil tyrannical overlords themselves, or because of boredom, or whatever. Divine backing optional, as is running things cult-style, and physical peculiarities.
Kos is a total MILF by the way
>>47332168
Horrible abomination MILF
Id fuck it.
>>47332840
Porn when?
>>47332168
>those dick-sucking lips
>>47325357
>capitalists wasteland
You commy loving fuck
>>47325746
You need to play the game 3 times each time picking a different God at the beginning, after that you unlock the 4th option and play the game picking mat as the bad guy.
He planned it all. He tricked you into freeing him
>>47330753
>I know people keep using the ant comparison when contrasting humans and Eldritch beings,
well the thing about the ant comparison is that it relays how powerful they are it gives no insight into their nature. Yes we are but ants to them, but then how often do you go out of your way to ruin an ant's life? unless they are taking up residence in your pantry probably not that often if at all, the more likely scenario is you see an ant colony, acknowledge their existence, and then go on with your day; this says nothing about who you are as a person. A similar thought could be implemented on eldrich horrors, they know we exist, but why would they bother with us? they could be evil, they could be good, we just wouldn't know based on that kind of limited interactions.
>>47328425
Ever got a sunburn.
That's why
Not sure if this is applicable, but I'm working on a setting that's takes place after the heat death of the universe. Everything is locked in frozen death, leaving behind a cold playvround for liminal beings. Between the spaces, previously drowned out by the hustle and bustle of the living universe, they can now make themselves known. But what can they do?
It's kind of a whimsical setting, very Douglas Adams esque, but with eldritch space monsters. Or rather, beings based on the concepts of the universe, old and new. There's plenty of gods, eldritch or otherwise, exploring the dead universe alongside their fellow thought forms and other goons.
>>47331938
the simplest way to have Eldritch Things on the side of Protagonist is to come up with a base enough motivation for the Things that their goals and the goals of human protagonists can match, even tangentially.
Japan often goes to the well of "they come to fug" like Saya no Uta and Bloodborne, Nougami Neuro went with "solve mysteries/because they eat mysteries", i.e. eating.
Freedom from captivity, yearning to go home, desperately needing to shit, gaining more space to grow are all things that humans and eldritch beings can find reasons to work together to achieve.
>>47325294
Making said eldritch horrors genuinely benevolent is probably one way to go around it. Make the BBEG an eldritch horror who isn't so benevolent.
>>47333440
He could mean an wasteland for capitalists.
>>47325294
Have them be misunderstood.
>>47333997
>protagonist's face when
>>47325294
The "Eldritch Horrors" in this imaginary setting are not malign Lovecraftian things. Instead, they are what you might think of as "glitches" in the reality in which we live, peculiar spirits that can spring into existence anywhere.
The presence and powers possessed by these Eldritch Entities are actually responsible for déjà vu, precognition, poltergeist activity and other types of paranormal phenomena that Humans experience. Their powers may be minor or major, but are almost always narrow in scope and specific to the reality glitch that created them.
They are for the most part non-sapient, neither good nor evil, and short-lived as our reality is always works to correct these glitches, but some particularly old and powerful entities have manifested the abilities to think and feel at a demi-Human level.
It is this collection of Entities, their intelligence, self-awareness and struggle to survive that become important to the setting and it's future.
>>47325294
I like to think that all those elder gods who destroy everything with their pressence are ultimatly not evil on the sole reason we are alive. They know of their destructive otherness and distance themselves/carefully avoid lesser species.
Somethimes one gets a little to curious thinking a small peek to see if we are okay and thats when the horrors happen.
I want to make this a setting. We need this to happen.
>>47334043
What is the original source for this?
>>47332168
>>47332840
>>47333424
Gherman, go home
>>47334985
I would agree.
>>47335707
Gherman is an old fart with shit taste.
What kind of memer would find a nerd like Maria cute?
>>47326693
>>47326743
The guy does have a point though.
While there are exceptions, the general point of an eldritch horror is that you can't fathom it.
If they're the protagonists, and especially the PCs, you lose out on that somewhat.
Though I suppose you could play it as a "we have no idea what the fuck their real motives are, but their actions are pointed in the right direction, and if it's somehow worse than what we've got they've quite frankly earned the right to do it."
>>47336548
>bullying girl who did nothing wrong
>>47336548
>Maria
>implying that Gherman didn't fug Kos
>implying The Orphan isn't Gherman's kid
>implying this isn't why The Orphan fights like a hunter and affects Gherman's sleep when you kill him
>>47328653
Back in 2e there was mention that they were light sensitive, and the sun dried out their skin and gave them painful rashes. It's a holdover, most-likely.
>>47325294
Normal game. At the end of it, reveal that insects are sentient.
>>47336548
>I head she watches Kill la Kill
kek
>>47337670
It's a good anime, I don't know why 4chan hates on it so much.
>>47325294 (OP)
Campaign: Warhammer 40000. Heroes: Eldritch horrors. Mission: Deprogram everyone from their evil ideologies?
Campaign: Anything. Heroes: Eldritch horrors who are ordinary aliens who survived centuries or millennia despite unrecoverable errors in their immortality system that distorted them into the eldritch horrors you see today.
Campaign: Groups of eldritch horror summoning evil-cultists work together to summon the players. Use binding magic to limit the players non-obedient powers. PC's weren't as evil as they thought. The binding forced them to be less evil? PC's are upset about the binding. PC's are upset about their evil actions. NPC hero group(s) backed by good organization can make the summoners flee and give the players a patron.
>>47336717
The Orphan never existed. It's a metaphor/physical embodiment of the curse of Hunters. It represents Gehrman and the original Hunters sins in regards to slaughtering the fishing hamlet. Killing it partly breaks the curse, and puts to rest the spirit of Kos/Gehrman. It never existed in the real world, it was only in the Hunters Dream as an embodiment.
>>47339536
>>47325294 (OP)
The summoners also stole as much of the eldritch horrors powers as possible for themselves. You don't want to summon something evil that stays more powerful than you. Can use existing power transfer and maybe weakening spells and rituals or just say it works; they had an unknown amount of time and resources to research and do it.
>>47339502
Meme-level hype on /a/ before release, quite good, quite popular.
>>47339502
I think it's kind of eh in a lot of ways. 4chan just likes to tear into anything that most people like because that's how it is. Some of the complaints you hear are valid, but most are pretty overblown.
>>47339589
Interesting. What was Kos, then? And why did the hunters kill everyone in the hamlet?
>>47339589
The Orphan absolutely existed, what are you talking about.
In Bloodborne, just because something exists in a dream world does not mean that it is any less real. This is true for the player character, for the Moon Presence, for Gherman, for Micolash, and yes, for the Orphan
>>47339777
Kos was a decently powerful Great One that washed up on the beach of some tiny fishing town. She was dead-ish, because Great Ones can't really die in the same way a lot of Lovecraftian shit can't. The people who lived in the town worshipped her and the parasites that lived on her body. It mutated them into magical fish folk, and a university showed up to do research. They basically just tortured and mutilated everyone who lived there with the help of some hired killers, apparently including Gehrman and Maria as well as the other original Hunters. For what they did Byrgenwerth and it's descendants were cursed with beasthood and the Hunters were cursed to never die but eventually go blood-crazy before going to the Hunters Dream forever.
>>47339804
At the same time, something existing in the dream doesn't mean it ever actually existeded in the real world. The Orphan isn't even the Great One holding the dream together, that's the black spirit that appears after you kill it. Which leads me to believe that the Orphan is just some sort of projection. Maybe it did exist, but it's certainly not real in same way something like Rom or the Amygdala was.
>>47339589
Well, we know that the Old Hunters did something to "the poor, wizend child," which is obviously the Orphan. This makes it incredibly unlikely that the Orphan does not truly exist.
>>47339804
We don't actually know what the Old Hunters o
>>47339777
Kos was a powerful Old One who washed up dead at the shore of the hamlet.
We don't exactly know what the Hunters did to Kos, the Orphan, or the fishing village. It's implied that they desecrated/experimented on her corpse (and that what they learned from this experiment helped them uncover the secrets to the old blood).
>>47339835
That's a cool theory. I've really only seen the one on Reddit, where the hamlet was a whaling village that killed Kos thinking it was a whale, and Gehrman and Maria and aborted its fetus for research.
>>47339908
I thought the Old Blood was discovered earlier, in the Labyrinth. That's why they were so interested in Kos. They had heard of great ones, but never found one intact to experiment on.
That said, I think the Orphan was at least very different in real life to the one you fight. The one you fight seems to be directly a shadow or imitation of Gehrman, and the fact the Sweet Child of Kos is the seperate and real entity makes me believe it's just creating the Orphan as some sort of guardian or embodiment.
>>47339900
No, I don't think you get this: dreams are literal, physical places, that are just as real as the mundane world (if not moreso).
When you return to the Hunter's Dream, you're not resting in the physical world and dreaming the whole thing up. You are literally teleported to the Dream, and your body does not remain in the mundane world.
This is how Lovecraftian fiction works, and its also how Bloodborne works.
>>47331800
The thing about Bloodborne is that there's very little in canon that's nailed down. The lore is legitimately left open so that you can interpret the great ones as good/bad or anywhere in between.
That's part of the fun of the Souls games though. Everyone gets to the end with their own personal head canon and themes.
>>47339967
Yes, but the Orphan is not the real Great One. The Sweet Child is.
Also, why does micolash's body still exist in the real world?
>>47339962
The old blood was discovered in the Labyrinth, but I think that their experimenting on Kos gave them more insight (heh) on how to use the old blood for healing.
I'm pretty sure that the black spirit you kill after beating the Orphan is the soul of Kos, which you put to rest (and thus end the curse, maybe?)
>>47340038
That's why I assume the Orphan in the dream isn't real. It doesn't even give you the prompt for killing a boss until you destroy the spirit. Similar to how the Wet-Nurse is just a projection of Mergo.
>>47335389
Devil is a part-timer or something. Basically satan starts working at McD's
>>47340035
No, the real Great One is Kos' soul (the black smoky thing) that you kill and put to rest after beating the Orphan.
Just because Micolash didn't reach the Nightmare of Mensis the same way the player character reached dream worlds (Micolash didn't have the Moon Presence to teleport him), that doesn't mean that he's any less physical or that he's "metaphorical." It's the real Micolash that you fight and kill in the Nightmare, not some illusion.
>>47340119
The Wet-Nurse was absolutely an Old One though. She gives the "Nightmare Slain" message and everything.
>>47340212
No she doesn't.
You only get the Nightmare slain thing after the crying stops. Thing can be real in the dreams and only be projections of the Great One who is it's creator. All the dreams are created by the Great Ones, and everything in them is a product of them. It's all real, but it's also a product of the mind.
>>47340253
>after the crying stopsThe crying doesn't stop, anon. In fact, after you kill Mergo, if you play the music box, you actually hear a baby laughThat's because the crying isn't coming from Mergo the baby, but from Formless Oedon, the baby's Great One father.
It's not a product of the mind though; it's a physical existence.
Stop thinking of dreams as imagination, cause they're not. They're physical realms, and not everything you find there is a figment or an illusion
The Old Gods started out Perfect, and they beheld a dead Universe wich was Peace Perfected. The decided to create, and so they watched as from death, Life came:
From the Nothingness of Space were created dusty rocks and then Stars, first Few and very Far Away, but soon their Minds began to converge, they started imagining more and where it would go, how they could make something out of these few specks of dust.
The stars began to coalesce, and they formed Galaxies and these Galaxies came closer and closer to each other, forming superclusters and so on. They imagined all the stars and all Beings meeting, merging, becoming one.
.
The Move backwards in time from our Perspective, or Rather, Humans Became the Old Gods at the End of Time.
Then The Humans who had become the Old Gods - who were the last Humans and the last beings in the Universe before its heatdeath - found a way to restart the cycle.
From their perspective, they are rewinding the Universe, seeing History as they know it, watching it In Reverse.
.
Humanity is actually one of the last Sentient Species to come into existance in this dying Universe. We don't know it properly, but Unconsciously we do: We enjoy Chaos and Mayhem.
In the Past, when there was more Chaos, less Order, when our Ancestors worshipped darker Beings and Spirits, we could do Magic.
We cannot do Magic anymore.
And the less of us practice Religions - any Religion really -, the more our Spirituality Dies, the Universe dies around us, striving towards it's Cold-Out.
The Old Ones, The Last Humans know this. they Instill faith in our Ancestors as they - from their perspective - move forward towards the Big Bang when it all started, the see older Cultures rising from the Dead of Science and Technology, then starting to Worship SOMETHING.
And as they Worship SOMETHING, everything comes together, until finally EVERYTHING can start anew, as The Old Ones have travelled from the End of the Universe to the Beginning and restart all.
>>47340410
From our Point of View, their Cultists are Nihilistic Opportunists and Egotistical Maniacs, Spreading Chaos and Occult Spiritualism with no Place in our World while it grows more and more technologically advanced. In the near future, we will root out all Spirituality, and the Certainty of Science will Replace it.
From their Point of View, the last of the crazy occultists are actually the first to rekindle the fire and give them the power to travel to the Beginning.
This is also why Prophecy is True:
What is Written in Occult Tomes has been told to those people by beings which have witnessed Our Future - and for Whom it is past.
.
One day, our Heroes wake up in a futuristic Utopia slowly dying out: There is very, very vew children. Mankind has spread out across dying stars, becoming pure Conciousness. Our Heroes are the Last Humans and make their Way to the Birthplace of Humanity.
Along the Way they find Relics of the Past, Tales of Old Gods and Heroes - Tales of Those who carry their Names. Eventually they embark on the great Journey in some Relativistic Ship, trying to reach the Birthplace of Humankind.
And once they emerge, nothing is anymore in the World except for the Godmachine they find at the Very Edge of Reality, a time machine which allows them to travel FORWARDS but BACKWARDS
>>47340480
Concerning Prophecy, the Last Occultists actually only get a very small gimpse at the Future: The Last Humans who are the Old Gods have not travelled backwards very far, and there is relatively little of the future they can tell, so it is hard to put faith in them.
The Further Back they travel however, the more vivid and powerfull Prophecy becomes. Faith is strengthened in the past, because they can tell more of the future, and for those who were our ancestors the vast Tales of Prophecy were impressively accurate and true.
The Further Back they travel, the more Followers they gather this way, as they can more accurately predict what will happen - as they have witnessed it.
This is the reason faith eventually dies out: Because in the far future, just before The Old Ones begin their journey, they have little to tell.
But in the Past, when they have travelled far, there is much faith in many different gods and entropy is high.
>>47325294
Give the "humans are terrible creatures" shtick
The Sky Ones have come to Earth with a prophecy that man would tear itself asunder. They don't seek unity of the human race under them, they seek to end a development of a power strong enough to destroy them, never mind what humans could do to one another with it. They fully understand the awkwardness of otherworldly contact, so they refuse to fight themselves, instead electing to amass followers who will carry out their mission. Of course, their following makes it look like a cult, and the resistance to the creatures like purifying saints.
>OP asks for eldritch horror campaign
>all versions given are horrors vs stuff worse than them or trying to survive or save humanity from worse stuff
You freaking wusses. You corrupt anything an EH is supposed to be.
Have them be world devouring conquerors and make a campaign around that. Subtly influencing mortals. Making nations war each other. Send agents. And so on.
>>47340954
Read the fucking OP.
>... a campaign where the eldritch horrors are actually the heroes?
These abominations can't be world devouring conquerers because he wants them to be heroes, and if it's situated in anything short of sci-fi settings, being on a world would suck very much when an inconceivably gigantic monster wants to gobble it up.
>>47341010
pfffffffffffff
a culture's heroes are another's villains, have them be HORRORS to others and heroes to their own
>>47341068
Except their culture does not exist, nor do the cultures which they influence, for they have been fabricated for the mere entertainment in the culture of a group of truly higher beings; the ones playing the game which they exist. It is only to this culture that decides who is and isn't a hero, and this notion is more often than not preconceived based on their avatar in this petty, nonexistent world. These "supreme beings" the eldritch beasts call themselves are just as mortal as goblins and monsters to the True Ones, with the Great Mastermind being able to bring about reality's end with two words: "Rock's Fall."
Inflating the concept of a tabletop RPG into a cosmic scale and using it as a plot device in a game actually doesn't sound that bad.
>>47341300
>except their culture doesn't exist
Step 1. Come up with a culture that'd deem the average Cthulian act as heroic and honor it.
Step 2. Play the game.
>>47341410
You are purposefully avoiding my point. The views of in-game cultures don't matter. They do not exist. What matters is whether or not the players see them as heroes. In order for the destructive abominations that seek the end of the world to be seen as heroes to the player characters, all of the players must agree to play deluded submissive revenants who wish for their own end, but in order for them to be seen as heroes to the players, they have to believe that what the abominations are doing aligns with what they see as heroic, and it is incredibly easy to say one thing and feel another. What fictional characters think of each other don't matter in this situation, what matters is the player's perspective on whether or not these alien creatures are actually heroes, not to the characters they play, but from their otherworldly perspective.
>>47341648
>what matters is whether the players see them as heroes
What is necessary to be seen as hero differs from person to person. I would be fine to view someone as "heroic" in the context of a game and play with them as a hero, without having the same morals as the society who'd consider the character a hero.
I understand you might not be able to do that.
Ok.
But it's different for different people.
>>47327348
what in the hell do you fish with those??
>>47341711
That's exactly my point. You can roleplay someone who thinks Fuckbringer Briger of Fuck is the second coming of Christ, but you know damn well you don't need Fuck in your life. There is no objective heroism, yes, but when definig a hero in a story, it is up to the person who interprets. If you as a person Fuckbringer ruins lives indiscriminately and for no just cause, you know him to not be a hero. It's this awareness that makes people say "I want to play a bad guy" and have "villain campaigns."
>>47325294
The eldritch horrors are pretty nice guys, actually, but they refrain from interacting with lower-dimensional beings because it's very difficult to do without driving everyone involved bonkers.
Human science has recently advanced to the point that they can touch the realms where these creatures live, but corrupt businessmen are trying to use the research for destructive purposes, and are ignoring vital safety procedures in the name of profit. So a few brave eldritch adventurers make the trip to try to communicate with the smarter humans and prevent a disaster.
So basically every 'door opens to horrible place, monsters pour through, people become possessed' except you play the monsters, possession is needed to survive here for a prolonged period of time, and you're here to help.
>>47333440
>>47325357
>A Totalitarian Theology oppressing everyone, Capitalist Wasteland, Post-Apocalyptic feral humanity.
How about a totalitarian regime based on science and non believers? They abandoned the ''Old Gods'' and now rely only on science and magic, as those things are provable by known methods.
Or how about a socialist paradise like modern day north korea. Nothing else to add to that, because it actually exists for reference. Old Gods wake up and fuck up the Jung Il line for being assholes.
>>47342257
It's the Kim line first of all, Asian naming conventions and whatnot, also Jung Il was not the patriarch, Il Sung was...... scrub.
>>47330172
>>47325294
An Eldritch Horror that views humanity as their favorite TV show. It doesn't interfere, just observes because it finds it infinitely hilarious. It doesn't want some uppity asshole to ruin it so it makes it helps whenever humanity is threatened by extinction it other forces like it.
>>47325294
>>47327199
Just make sure they worship Dagon and not Bogruk. Wouldn't want another Sarnath, now would we?
>>47333672
Saya a cheating ho bag.
>>47325294
>eldritch horrors
>having any need or conceptualization of morality
>having motivations or reasoning that are within the scope of comprehension
Why does /tg/ never understand that unknowable beings from beyond the fabric of reality are, you know, unknowable?
>>47345659
because "their motivations are unfathomable to your feeble mind" is just a lazy way of not needing to explain why your villain is an asshole.
>>47345876
>not arbitrarily spoon-feeding your villains motivations to your players, when "unknowable" is the core aspect of their archetype, is lazy
Okay.
>>47345659
People are allowed to take concepts into different directions. There is no 'wrong' way to do it.
>>47345876
That's why eldritch abominations should never be the heroes or villains in a story. They should always be the endgame of the villain's master plan. Mortal beings twisted into insanity by the malevolence of unknowable cosmic forces are fathomable by a mortal mind.
Making an eldritch abomination knowable is like having a dragon that can't fly or breath fire. It's no longer an eldritch abomination if its just this mundane, comprehensible thing. It's just a big tentacle monster.
>>47346033
Except going that direction completely breaks the core aspects of the concept and turns it into something else entirely.
>>47346077
Giving them malevolence also makes them knowable.
>>47346093
Then you are inventing a new core concept. Why are you so phobic of experimentation, rather than the same old rote repetition and copying of old writers and old ideas?
>>47346105
>Giving them malevolence also makes them knowable.
It may be malevolence as one man comprehends it, but it could mean something completely different to someone else. Why is it malevolent? By what standard is it malevolent? Do we identify it as malevolent because of our own notion of evil? Do we identify it as malevolent because the dude worshiping it is a douchebag? Who knows.
>Why are you so phobic of experimentation
I'm not phobic of experimentation, but the OP asked how to make an eldritch horror the hero of a campaign, which would require him to completely alter what makes an eldritch horror an eldritch horror. I answered his question. There's no way to make an eldritch horror heroic without altering some or most of the fundamental concepts that make it what it is. Which is fine, but it doesn't fit in the scope of what an eldritch horror is.
>>47326310
>Yithians
>noble
The forcible mind-swapping then anmesia-inducing-mind-rapists? Yeah, nah.
>>47346017
you don't need to spoon-feed the motivation, but you should have one.
Even a wierd, tzeenchian, "unknowable" motivation is better than none. a good example of this is the Moon Presence from Bloodborne. The Moon Presence's motivation is to trick/coerce the player from behind the scenes to kill the children of Great Ones. Although why the Moon Presence wants this is never told, it is at least known what it wants to happen.
When you have something that has no motivation, it ends up appearing mundane and stupid - like a mindless beast - rather than as all-knowing and unfathomable.
>>47325806
Why does it look the one on the right is waving to the world about to get crushed? Look at that smug fuck....
>>47346180
Completely alter? No, not really. Lovecraft made his horrors by tweaking certain conceptions of aliens present in fiction in his day. They're not a unique being born of nothing, they're his take on a concept, and one can bare a lineage to him without simply copying all the alterations. The three are:
1. Power level. Lovecraft made his alien beings, at the upper echelons, significantly more vital than anyone else did. To him, this contributed to the horror. This element does not need to be altered for OP's goal.
2. Goals. Aliens with strange and inhuman goals and mindsets were not an invention of Lovecraft. What he did is more of a change in framing, instead of these goals becoming known, they remain a mystery as he declares "You don't know and can't know." This one would be hard not to alter.
3. Effects on reality. Scary and inhuman aliens were not invented with Lovecraft either. What Lovecraft did was make humans ridiculously fragile, to where being met with something they did not understand or recognize could shatter their worldview, and he applied this to his horrors. This is simply an innate aspect of their being and the being of humans, they just cannot handle trying to process them. This is an element that is not necessary to alter, as it says nothing as to their personality.
Now, I'll also add that Outer Gods were not all as distant as you claim. Nyarlhotep, while still very alien, is specifically called out as being an odd duck who enjoyed deceiving, hurting, and controlling humans. If one of Lovecraft's own can bare such human behavior, it is not a stretch or a departure at all to allow one that has a more friendly manifestation of this.
>>47346221
Well then maybe I misunderstood you. That's perfectly understandable and I fully believe is within the scope of eldritch horror tropes. My only point is that you shouldn't flesh out why the eldritch horror does the things it does, because the scope of motivation for something like that shouldn't be understandable by mortal minds.
Like, "eldritch rising from an ancient slumber because X, Y, and Z to do A, B, and C" isn't really eldritch horror to me, because you could just replace "eldritch horror" with any super powerful being and it's the same thing.
>>47346291
I seem to have a bad habit of posting right before the person I replied to does.
>>47346242
That one? Well, let's just say that the devolution hasn't been kind to that one's mind.
>>47346305
Meh. I think some motivations in eldrich horror can be explained while still seeming weird and unknowable. in fact, a fair bit of motivation IS explained in cosmic horror.
For example, we know exactly why the Shogoths fought against the Yith: they were rebelling slaves. Does that make the Shogoths seem any less alien, weird, or unknowable? No. You will never know the everyday thought process of a Shogoth, even though you know that they don't like being slaves.
>>47340204
Nigga, that's not the source.
We had a story like that. The old gods were ancient, impossible to understand, and unimaginably powerful, but they fit into this universe at least. They were one of the defenses when things that the universe rejected made an appearance.
>>47335389
When Supernatural Battles Become Commonplace.
>>47334043
This webm made me sad. I'm gonna go take a bath now.
>>47350267
That webm made me laugh.
>You're a coward anon don't hide your powerlevel!
>Now let me just rant about hating everything you like!
It's like a webm of a normie breakdown. Who would even care what this girl thinks if she literally hates and doesn't understand a single thing you like or anything about you?
>>47350314
I don't know man it's her face. Even if I disagree. I'm weak anon.
>>47325384
I did something along these lines in an old campaign of mine. They came from distant future where something very bad was about to destroy the universe. The time travel went slightly wrong and made them forget about saving the universe and develop a taste for brains in the meanwhile.
Eldritch being has seen countless universes fall. Heard the deathcries of untold innocents.
It will not let it happen again.
>>47342035Different anon here.
People who say "I want to play a bad guy" or "I want to play in a villain campaign" are the type of uncreative sods who think that a LG person can only ever be either a boy scout or a pious smite-o-matic.
In a good story with fully fleshed out characters, you should never be able to tell if the characters are wholly good or wholly evil.
>>47350569
People who say a character can only be fully fleshed out of they're morally grey are edgy teenagers.
>>47350582
>Fully fleshed out means that they're inherently morally grey
I bet you introduce your characters as "I'm an [alignment], [class], [race] named [insert name here]" you sod.
>he wants an August Derleth campaign
>>47350603
>You should never be able to tell if characters are good or evil.
Sure sounds like it's what you want, bro.
>>47350652
Not him, and I might be taking the situation out of context, but eldritch beings at the least should not have a clear moral persuasion. What gives them a mysterious and alien vibe is their incomprehensibility and incompatibility with human thought. They transcend our system of morals, and this is imperative to their nature and the weird atmosphere of the original stories. That is my main problem with OP's desire.
>>47350766
You're taking the situation out of context, because he's not talking about eldritch beings. He's complaining about people saying they want to play a villain campaign.
>>47350652
Listen mate, you might learn something important about characterization.
Nobody, no matter how nice and altruistic and cooperative they are, is ever truly "good" and nobody is ever inherently "evil" no matter how mean, selfish, or spiteful they are.
You can have nice people who are all around bastards who you would never want to cross and you can have bad people who are all around decent people who got fucked over by circumstance.
With that being said, if you can tell that a character is good or evil then they're either one-dimensional, written so that all they show are character traits that bolster themselves as good or evil or they're portrayed in a way where they're only good/evil because other characters comment on how good/evil they are.
An example of the former would be something like a mary sue character who only shows positive personality traits that make them seem heroic and kind while the latter would be someone like Eragon who is called a hero in spite of being an all around wank who can get away with genocide because he's the "chosen one" or some shit.
In a story with fully fleshed out characters, you should be able to see traits that you could argue as being heroic or villainous depending on where the character's arc takes them.
For example, take someone like Harry Dresden.
On the one hand he's powerful, clever, fiercely protective of his friends, and also tries to do the right thing, even at the cost of his own health and safety. On the other hand, he also dipped his thumb in the pies of several evil entities, has an anger problem, is very cocky at times, is a bit of a chauvinist, and also has some issues with authority.
There are positive traits that make him sympathetic and heroic but there are other traits that make him villainous in the right situation.
If you can boil a character's entire being down to a binary system like "good" vs. "evil" then you're basically just saying that you don't give a shit.
>>47330827
>Literally no reason since they arent even light sensitive.
Not familiar with illithid fluff I take it?
2e illithids: stated to be nearly blind in sunlight, and horrified by it
3e illithids: stated to find it similarly horrifying as a human bathing in blood
>>47340954
I remember /tg/ at one point making a game where you played as world-devouring cosmic beings. Although it was less Chulhu and more Marvel's cosmic stuff. And in the original idea said cosmic being slooked liem cute girls, because of course they did (that did get dropped pretty quickly in the favor of coming up with a systme that let you build your own world-eater, ranging from Von Neuman machine deconstructor fleets to big pastel-colored guys with silly hats). Nothing really came out of it, though.
>>47350863
That's a nice long rant about your teenager's understanding of morality.
>NOBODY IS GOOD OR BAD IT'S ALL JUST A DEEP STORMY GRAY JUST LIKE MY SOUL
>>47341890
...
fish (might be better for sea fish idk)
They're pretty small if that's what you're confused about.
>>47350889
That's a nice non-answer that shows how ignorant you are on the subject.
Why even reply, for (You)'s?
Am I on /v/ and nobody told me?
>>47340954
Not very heroic.
Also plenty of eldritch horrors in HPL stories are at least somewhat tolerable. Elder Things and Ghouls, for example.
>>47350889
Name a truly good or truly evil character and I'll explain how they're either low-key grey or poorly written.
>>47346077
>Making an eldritch abomination knowable is like having a dragon that can't fly or breath fire. It's no longer an eldritch abomination if its just this mundane, comprehensible thing. It's just a big tentacle monster.
Serious question, do you know what words mean or do you like to just take existing words and re-imagine them?
>>47346180
>which would require him to completely alter what makes an eldritch horror an eldritch horror.
It would not. Learn what words mean before trying to act like an authority.
Eldritch: weird n spooky
Abomination: something loathsome, horrible, etc
>>47350931
The idea that having flaws prevents a person from being overall 'good' is a simplistic stance, and a judgmental one. It's difficult to trust you as any kind of arbiter when you declare that a person having flaws means they can't be called 'good'.
>>47350863
>Nobody, no matter how nice and altruistic and cooperative they are, is ever truly "good" and nobody is ever inherently "evil" no matter how mean, selfish, or spiteful they are.
"Evil" does not and has never meant "wholly 100% bad no redeeming qualities." Not in D&D, not in popular use, not in historic use.
>>47350931
Familiarize yourself with the terms, and then we'll talk.
>>47350965
The only being that could ever exist that is wholly good is a being who is literally perfect.
Also, the argument isn't that flaws prevent someone from being wholly good, it's that the existence of their flaws could lead some to argue that they could in fact become villainous later on if they don't take care to keep a handle on it.
I mean, how many villains started off as heroes who let their anger or pride get the better of them and cause them to accept the terms of an evil entity. The concept of a "fallen paladin" is built around this exact premise.
>>47350981
It does when the character is poorly written and designated as the "bad guy."
I mean, look at Megatron, Skellitor, Mumm-Ra, and any other evil saturday morning cartoon villain from the 80's or 90's.
>>47351064
Your argument is literally that 'this guy has a bad temper, that means you can't call him a good guy he could be a villain!'. What kind of mental gymnastics brought you here must be eldritch in their own way.
>>47351005
>I'm not going to engage but am going to act intellectual superior to you anyways.
Yep, I'm on /v/ alright.
Enjoy your (You)'s.
>>47351064
Being "wholly good" is not a requirement for being good. Assuming you are the jackass over here >>47350931 that is.
You conflate "truly good" with "wholly good," and you conflate "truly good" with people's muh opinions.
From the author or DM's perspective, "truly good" and "good" are synonymous, because they know for sure (presumably).
>they could in fact become villainous later on if they don't take care to keep a handle on it.
This doesn't impact... anything... whatsoever.
>>47351086
Your order of operations is completely backwards. "Megatron is evil" does not mean "all evil people are Megatron," nor is Megatron always portrayed without his own positive qualities. Even in G1 he still has SOME positive qualities, albeit not many. To say nothing of Starscream's more positive incarnations, or of Soundwave's great loyalty, etc.
>>47351092
Anger is the seed that allows corruption to take hold.
At first, you're yelling, then you start to get physical, then it escalates until you're causing serious harm or property damage to someone.
I say this as someone with anger issues, and as someone who knows several people with anger issues of their own, if you don't learn how to cope with your anger, it consumes you until there's nothing left.
I mean, how many "what if Superman was evil" scenarios began because someone pissed Superman off just enough for him to say "fuck it" and he wrecked someone's shit badly enough to where he decided to abuse his powers further?
>>47351152
Someone having the potential for evil certainly does not make him less good or "truly good."
>>47351177
>>47351126
The fact that they have the potential for good or evil means that they aren't good or evil, it just makes them a person, that's what I'm trying to say.
>>47325294
Shamelessly stealing OP's idea and other brilliant ones shared in this thread, but now I want to do a campaign like this too. What system would you guys recommend for it? The PCs should be pretty powerful, but not so OP that its freeform roleplay. Like they lost 60% of their original, reality-shaping power because someone screwed up or some similar plot device.
>>47351152
Oh fuck off, Yoda. The Jedi are idiotic pricks.
>>47351216
>The fact that they have the potential for good or evil means that they aren't good or evil, it just makes them a person, that's what I'm trying to say.
Okay? But you're wrong and contradict yourself.
1. You are wrong by D&D concepts of good and evil.
2. You are wrong by dictionary definitions of good and evil.
3. You are wrong or at least grossly internally inconsistent even by the context of your own specious philosophy -- if people have the potential to be good or evil then they can have the actuality of being good or evil, but yet the conversation is about whether someone *is* good or evil in actuality, not in potential. Ergo the potential is irrelevant, we're talking about what *is*. One could go so far as to argue (I wouldn't) that you can only be good or evil if you have the potential to go the other way.
There's nothing contradictory at all about being good or evil, and a person.
(corrected an error)
>>47351285
And of course, just to cover my bases on #3: if they cannot have the actuality of being good or evil then they could not have the potential of being good or evil. This does not, however, imply that everyone is good or evil in actuality, and for what its worth in D&D not everyone is good or evil in actuality.
>>47327029
>Not Pingu
Shame on you.
>>47339589
Just because it's a dream doesn't mean you can't physically exist there or that it's not a physical place.
Lovecraft's Dreamlands are accessed by dreams, but it's a place and you're merely projecting yourself there. But it's an alternative reality. Bloodborne borrow's heavily from Lovecraft and other stuff, so it's possible the dreams could work the same way. After all, Gehrman is physically in the Hunter's Dream and the Hunter's Nightmare and stuff related to it would make it seem like blood-drunk hunters are being taken there by an amygdala, as the description of the blood-drunk hunter's eye would suggest. So the hunter's you encounter in the Nightmare are actual hunter that have gone blood-drunk and got taken there.
>>47339908
From what I've read, the Hunters took the third umbilical cord from Kos' body to use in their attempt to contact the Moon Presence, which created the Hunter's Dream as a snapshot of the old workshop where the ritual was performed.
Without the cord it's possible that the Orphan never matured like it should have and reached the status of a Great One, just ended up a shriveled old man.
It's also possible they found out what the people were doing with the parasites and destroyed to hamlet. Maybe they had already began turning into those slug and fish people Innsmouth style.
Ever read Worm or played Bloodborne? I'd do something similar to that though as they become more similar to their Passenger they become more eldritch in nature and grow in power.
>>47339589
>>47339967
The easiest way I've found to explain what dreams and nightmares mean in bloodborne, is that they're akin to planes of existance (more accurately, demiplanes) in DnD and similar settings. Basically, places in another dimension created by powerful beings.
>>47351392
So the cord in the workshop came from Kos/the Orphan? That actually makes a lot of sense, since Kos was the first Great One they encountered, and ended up being the last piece of the puzzle to making contact.
and we STILL don't know why they wanted to make contact the the Moon Presence, or what the Moon Presence even wants.
That makes me wonder, though, if the Hunter's Dream was created using Kos' cord, and the Nightmare of Mensis was created using Mergo's cord, what created the Hunter's Nightmare?
>>47351285
>1. You are wrong by D&D concepts of good and evil.
>Actually citing D&D morality
Next
>2. You are wrong by dictionary definitions of good and evil.
The definition doesn't take into account, say, a person with good PR who is funding terrorist organizations for personal gain or the guy who committed genocide because he felt as though it was the only way to achieve peace throughout the galaxy.
>3. You are wrong or at least grossly internally inconsistent even by the context of your own specious philosophy -- if people have the potential to be good or evil then they can have the actuality of being good or evil, but yet the conversation is about whether someone *is* good or evil in actuality, not in potential. Ergo the potential is irrelevant, we're talking about what *is*. One could go so far as to argue (I wouldn't) that you can only be good or evil if you have the potential to go the other way.
Even if you view yourself as good or evil, there will always be that little speck inside you that could pull you in the other direction, this is basically the bulk of many philosophies that deal with morality in some way, shape, or form.
So, you'll always have that potential for good or evil, even if you would otherwise be considered truly good or evil.
Also, this is relevant because it's the difference between a character with realistic goals and motivations and a character whose only purpose in the story is to be either a mouthpiece for the author's view on a particular issue or a Saturday morning cartoon villain or boy scout who only goes through the motions because that's what's expected of them, to either prevent conflict or to cause conflict for the sake of the plot and nothing else.
Also, it could become relevant if the players ever come up with a way to sway the villain's favor towards them or if the hero ends up becoming evil through a steady downhill curve because of circumstances beyond their control.
>>47351392
>>47351543
More digging seems to indicate that cord used to create the Hunter's Dream was not Kos' cord.
The original item description of the workshop cord said, "One of the heirlooms used to contact the Great Ones, originating in the child of the Vilebloods. Long ago, in an encounter with the Great Ones, a contract was established, establishing the hunters and the hunters dream."
We have no idea if this lore is still accurate, but since it was changed so late in development, it still impacts the way other lore should be approached, even if this lore is incorrect.
>>47351543
>we STILL don't know why they wanted to make contact the the Moon Presence
To become Great Ones themselves, learn their secrets, or any number of other things you might want to contact a being of undisclosed power and abilities.
>what the Moon Presence even wants
It's said in the description of the umbilical cords: "Every Great One loses its child, and then yearns for a surrogate." They used the child of the Vilebloods (quite possibly queen Yharnam) as a surrogate to contact it. As a note says: "The nameless moon presence beckoned by Laurence and his associates."
But >>47351597 might be right that it's not the umbilical cord of Kos. I might have remembered it wrong or that the cord taken from the Orphan (remember, it doesn't drop one, it's quite clear Kos is a Great One, the Orphan is its child, and the description of the cords says: "Every infant Great One has this precursor to the umbilical cord.") It's possible the cord went elsewhere and Gehrman and pals used the child of the Vilebloods to contact the Moon Presence.
>>47327348
>ragworm
>Still no jazzworm, crunkworm, folkworm, or metalworm
>>47351730
Yeah, but I meant it more as "what does the Moon Presence STILL want," I.E. why does it want us to kill Mergo
>>47351561
>Next
I apologize for hurting your feelings, but nobody really knew whether you were talking in universe, out of universe, or what, since you were using "evil" and "wholly evil" as synonyms. You are also talking about RPGs, but not clarifying which non D&D RPG you were going by that has codified good and evil.
>The definition doesn't take into account, say, a person with good PR who is funding terrorist organizations for personal gain
So, a guy who uses evil means for an evil end is not evil? Great argument. Too bad its wrong.
I'll take you down the list.
>morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked:
People can be evil by this definition, if they are morally "bad" (either by their morals or someone else's). If, say, terrorism is immoral by your belief system, then obviously he's evil.
>harmful; injurious:
A bit broad, but again, its indisputable.
>characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate; disastrous:
Not the kind of evil being talked about generally but yes, people can bring suffering or disaster.
>due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character:
Hopefully, you're not so retarded as to think people can't have actual or imputed bad conduct or character.
>marked by anger, irritability, irascibility, etc.:
Not usually what people mean by "evil" but yes, people can be marked by anger or irritability.
So yes, people can be evil by any of the above dictionary definitions. Deal with it.
>So, you'll always have that potential for good or evil,
Fine, and yet irrelevant. Again, some people would argue that you can ONLY be good or evil if you are capable of both. I don't personally find free will to choose important in the least for the purpose, but most people do, and thus you're only harming your case.
> because it's the difference between a character with realistic goals and motivations
You have yet to establish the way you seem to equate "character is evil" to "must mean he is automatically wholly, irredeemable evil."
>>47351843
I think something went wrong when contacting him and the baby died or something. It's quite possible the baby was Mergo, since you see gueen Yharnam near where you fight Mergo's wet nurse. It's possible Mensis tried to fuck with Mergo and it ended up with the baby becoming trapped in the nightmare and the Moon Presence wants you to "kill" the nightmare baby the set it free. After you kill the wet nurse, the baby's cries cease and and you get the "nightmare slain" message.
>>47351981
That would make sense, since when you kill the Orphan, you get the short cutscene that basically says that its been laid to rest.
Maybe the Moon Presence just wants you to euthanize tortured Great One children (and thus wants to kill you after you take the 3 cords, for fear you will be in pain when you hybridize).
>>47326024
>Then some motherfucker from out of space and out of town drops on you like the wrath of god, interrupting your nap, and hits you so hard you're reduced to a few separate fragments of your former self.
W20K vs Eldritch gods when?
>>47350314
To be fair, a girl wouldn't go out of her way to rant like that about things she doesn't like about you unless she really cares about you.
Think about it; a random stuck-up acquaintance would just laugh derisively and walk away. It's the girl that sees potential in you mixed with massive apparent flaws that would want to express these things in detail.
That being said, I still wouldn't give very many fucks about what she's going on about.
>>47352410
You can care about someone in a wrong and twisted way. If your manifestation of caring about someone is to hate everything about him and his hobbies and try to make him into someone else, you don't care about him, you care about doing 'good' and turning people into your ideals. Not the actual person.
>>47350931
Sir Galahad.
>>47350931
Jesus Christ
>>47352547
Very poorly written.
Inconsistencies out the wazoo.
>>47352547
Jesus literally pirated food.
He probably put a fisherman and two bakers out of a job.
>>47352110
It's not the Moon Presence that sends you to the Hunter's Nightmare. As I remember, it's an amygdala attached to the Oedon Chapel. So the Hunter's Nightmare might be something Oedon created.
As for Mergo, it's hinted that he might be the child of Oedon. I seem to recall that Yharnam had a child of blood with Oedon (something which Annalise is trying to do) and Yharnam is where you fight Mergo's wet nurse. You also never see the baby, but you hear its cries in various places. Just like how Oedon is a formless voice.
It would seem that with both the Orphan and Mergo, both are children of the Great Ones who have had something terrible happen to them and they've ended up trapped in Nightmare's, from which they need to be released from.
Though as I remember the cord saying, every Great One's child dies and they need a surrogate to birth them. The Orphan was born of Kos and not a surrogate like Mergo. Then again, Kos is dead and the Orphan is, in fact, an orphan. So maybe it's that with Kos dead, there is no way for it to get a surrogate to birth its child and thus the Orphan is trapped in the nightmare.
>>47352951
Kos dying instead of her child fulfilled the clause of every Great One losing their child, since she lost her child by dying before it could be born.
Play up that most of the actions of Eldrich beings is done not of malice but of ignorance. This could lead into curiosity about the lives of the "lesser" species, like how we have biologists studying animals. The acquisition of knowledge would lead to concern about the consequences of their actions.
I'm surprised no one has brought this up yet.
>>47353468
But remember, each cord says "Every Great One loses its child, and then yearns for a surrogate." The interesting point being "then". As in it's part of the process for all Great Ones. Also, I said wrong, because it doesn't say "dies," it says "loses." And since it seems to be a thing everyone of them goes through, from what I've read it seems like "losing" the child is part of birthing them. As in the Great One has the child, loses it, and then has to find a suitable surrogate to give birth to the child. The child born is not a new child, but the Great One's original child birthed through a surrogate.
The Orphan is not dead, it's trapped in the nightmare, never able to be born because Kos is dead and can't find a surrogate for it to be born.
I was thinking about where the Orphan's umbilical cord when and I wonder if it's the one you get from Iosefka. Of the 4 in the game, we know the origins of 3. One comes from the workshop, possibly from the child Gehrman and the others used to beckon the Moon Presence; one comes from Arianna's baby; and the last from Mergo's wet nurse, quite possibly belonging to Mergo. So where did the one Iosefka had come from?
The description says: "Provost Willem sought the Cord in order to elevate his being and thoughts to those of a Great One, by lining his brain with eyes. The only choice, he knew, if man were to ever match Their greatness." So it's from Willem, who sought after a cord. Could this be the Orphan's cord, pillaged from Kos' body at the fishing hamlet?
>>47355232
>Could this be the Orphan's cord, pillaged from Kos' body at the fishing hamlet?
That's certainly possible, but there is another theory
It is possible that false-Iosefka could be a third possible surrogate for Oedon (the others being Yharnam and Arianna). I say this because, if you listen to her last dialogue, it seems that false-Iosefka is pregnant with a Great One, and she is heavily associated with the Caryll runes for Formless Oedon and Oedon Writhe.
Personally, I prefer your theory over this one.
>>47325294
>>47325357
The Trespasser dlc for DA:I surprisingly does something like this.
Before they came, the earth was peaceful. The dominant species were an assortment of law-abiding, peace-loving skeletons with symbiotic cephalopod lifeforms making their homes in their bones. No one ever stayed mad over one thing for too long, they were all too busy building beautiful victorian castles and creating great works of art, literature and fine cuisine.
And then they came. Terrifying creatures with white feathered wings, faces covered with smooth skin and terrible orbs of jelly in their eye sockets that watched everywhere you went. They spread their affliction like a disease, calling it "human flesh" and killing off the parasitic tentacles we loved so much like they were nothing.
History was rewritten, every great skeletal leader being tarnished with the image of human flesh infecting his body, obscuring his bones and choking his beloved octofriend to death. The newborn humans were warlike, greedy and violent, willing to come to armed conflict over anything. The few peaceful skeletons with immunity to the disease fled underground along with their tentacled counterparts, waiting for a hero to rise and set things right.
You are one of the few survivors. You managed to stop the flesh from spreading, and all but your hand is still in its pristine skeletal form, your faithful squid partner resting in your ribcage, giving you indispensable advice as you and your closest friends start raising a rebellion. Armed with only a few bolt-action rifles, muskets, rapiers, sabers and what little eldritch magic hasn't been sealed away, you are starting the greatest adventure the world has ever seen.
You are this world's last hope of ever returning to its true slimy skeletal form. Are you up to the challenge?
>>47326743
>>47336629
thats the worst part of the old ones. because theyre all fucking explinations of how conservative white culture was being under attack because other troubling thoughts like the idea of aliens existing was keeping us from our rightful place at the center of the universe.
>>47355642
I knew I forgot something.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtDI1LZw8jY
>>47355453
If the cord belonged to her baby, then it shouldn't mention Willem. All the other cords have descriptions related to the places and people they're related to, but Iosefka's talks about Willem and him seeking for a cord.
Also, Arianna's cord says: "Every Great One loses its child, and then yearns for a surrogate, and Oedon, the formless Great One, is no different. To think, it was corrupted blood that began this eldritch liaison." So if anything, she's given birth to Oedon's child.
I remember talk that the impostor Iosefka isn't trying to get pregnant, but is trying to become a Great One. That's why she's experimenting with people, turning them into Celestial Emissaries, and has the cord just like how Willem had it, to elevate her thoughts. She gives you insight almost by accident when you talk to her. In the end she says: "Don't you see? How they writhe, writhe inside my head... It's... rather... rapturous...'' If you look at the icon for Great One's Wisdom, it's a cracked skull with lots of slugs squiggling inside it. It's possible she's been trying to get lots of insight on how to elevate herself into a Great One. Also, Arianna doesn't turn into a crazy person when the red moon appears.
I've always wondered what Madman's Knowledge and Great One's Wisdom are exactly. Passing skulls with slugs in them seems a bit odd. I wonder if they're just a catchall term for anything that could give you insight. You get insight from all sorts of things, from seeing bosses, talking to people, etc. Could it be possible that when you find Madman's Knowledge on a body, you're actually finding like a note that contains something horrible or a trinket that, when studied, reveals something to you you might not have noticed before?
>>47355893
Nope! They're litterally the skulls of madmen; item description says as much.
Something I'm only now realizing, though, is that the writhing skull things on the image for Great Ones' Wistom look a hell of a lot like Kos Parasites.
The caged demonwolf from Empowered starts off as a rampaging world ender, who is defeated by a deus ex machina macguffin
>>47356058
He then becomes a comic relief character, trapped on Emp's coffee table, demanding access to the remote.
>>47356021
Great One's Wisdom just says that it's a fragment of the lost wisdom of the Great Ones.
>>47356085
>>47356117
Madman's Knowledge literally says that they're the "skull of a madman touched by the wisdom of the Great Ones"
>>47356132
And when you think comedy is all he is about, he breaks out the real talk
>"Long after you are dead, and this city is ashes, and your species is extinct... and this planet is a graveyard, and every star in its sky has gone dark, and all the universe beyond is lifeless and still... I will carry your memory with me, perfect in every detail, into the next universe. And I will see you then exactly as I see you now. Warm and passionate and violent and alluring and misguided and aroused and damaged and alive. From my point of view, you will never truly die, Kozue."
>>47356169
And Great One's Wisdom literally says "Fragments of the lost wisdom of the Great Ones, beings that might be described as gods."
>>47326900
>Got killed by their construction equipment.
They supposedly are found throughout space. The colony on earth was made of the dumbest niggers imaginable that constantly became less and less developed to the point that they were killed by their local flavor of dindus. I guess their last ruler was named "Hl'rry" or "Mr'kael".
>>47356482
Maybe they're literal, physical fragments of information.
It's certainly not the strangest thing I've heard of in Cosmic Horror.
![lore-the-buzzing-02-l-p031[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/LuBEtMS.jpg "lore-the-buzzing-02-l-p031[1].jpg")
The Buzzing from The Secret World is kind of like a benevolent eldritch abomination. A magitech hive mind AI that resides in the hollow earth. Their main interest appears to be to protect life on earth against the Dreamers, which are much less friendly eldritch abominations, and their preferred method of doing this is to empower humans by crawling down their throat while they sleep.
>TRANSMIT - initiate anima signal - RECEIVE - initiate the Enochian frequency - WITNESS - initiate the Merovingian syntax - FIAP DE OIAD - crawling roots, heavy with sizzling sap, stab your skull - DOWNLOAD - holy communion - NO PURCHASE NECESSARY - your eyes and ears hemorrhage boiling joy - MAY BE TOO INTENSE FOR SOME VIEWERS - ecstatic agony, your molecules come undone - SOME ASSEMBLY REQUIRED - offer expires at the heat death of the universe - FOR A LIMITED TIME ONLY - the dark days cometh, absolute zero, maximum entropy - ACT NOW! - initiate Agartha broadcast - TRANSMIT - open the 49 gates! - WITNESS! - The Buzzing.
>>47325646
>eldritch horrors fighting things that are even more eldritch and horror then they are.
>eldritch horrors who think normal mortal races are Kinda Cute and get real sad when bad things haen to them.
>eldritch horror starts fucking up with humans so the others ones get all pissy with all the noise he's making and go to stop them.
Look up a PS4 game called Bloodborne.
>>47357104
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJLhnts9-oQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjWOy6ioVHI
>>47358556
The fuck?
>>47358556
Sometimes it even makes sense.
>>47327458
>each fragment is bound to a mortal existence
Zullie is in DS3 as Yuria.
>>47328016
this
