Evening, ladies and gents. How about those announcements and rules questions?
>>47292175
Oh shit, nice to see you again. Enjoy your complementary bump and (you).
>>47292638
Thanks for the bump! it's good to be back. Life's been pretty crazy, but I'm really gonna try to carve out time for these threads more often.
>>47292672
This thread is dead. What's your favorite dead deck?
>>47292175
How do I assemble a contraption?
Will you be at GP LA?
I can't into layers.
So I overload Teleportal and deploy my grand game ending offensive. Opponent throws a Sudden Spoiling in my face. I'm certain the +1/+0 from Teleportal sticks around, but what about Prowess boosts?
>>47295307
Oh, and on top of this, they still can't be blocked since unblockable is no longer an ability, right?
>>47292175
I have Erdwall Illuminator and cast confront the unknown on it,with no ther clues on the field, by how much do I boost it?
Can I name Persistent Nightmare to Infinite Obliteration?
>>47292175
Are you excited for Kaladesh? And what do you think the monster Nahiri is summoning is? Any chance at all it's not Emrakul?
>>47292175
Is it possible, within the rules, for a replacement effect to target, had a brief debate on the concept and it was argued that a non-targeted effect being replaced could not target, as it was not able to ever do so.
Can non-creature permanents die?
>>47295984
You absolutely can.
Good luck finding any copies of it in their hand, library, and graveyard.
>>47296338
heres a card with a replacement effect "if...would..instead" that targets
>>47296338
>>47296514
furthermore on kor chant, you can see how the non-targeted effect, a creature taking damage, could be from combat or whatever, is replaced by a targeted effect
>>47296483
The rules say that you can name any side of a DFC and git the other side, tho.
>>47296587
Oh, wait, really?
Well then. In that case I'm probably wrong.
>>47296667
>>47296587
Actually, no, I think I'm right after all. Rule 711.4a.
Who told you that you could name one side and grab either side?
>>47292175
>>47295984
Oh god, we going to have this discussion again?
Good to see you on here again.
>>47295960
+1/+1. You cast Confront, When it resolves, investigating triggers the illuminator and the ability waits to go on the stack. You have 1 clue token from confront's investigate.
Erdwall Illuminator gains +1/+1 since you have a single clue. Then we're gonna put Illuminator's trigger on the stack, and when it resolves you investigate again and your clue count reaches 2, but not in time to increase Illuminator's p/t with the spell.
>>47296426
Yes. Die is shorthand for "goes to the graveyard from the battlefield". Permanents exist on the battlefield and if they go to the graveyard from there they "died"
>>47295307
You apply things that set p/t before things that modify it. So sudden spoiling sets the p/t to 0/2. Now you have teleportal giving it +1/0, so its a 1/3.
You have prowess boosts? Yeah they still apply. Since they modify p/t and don't set it, they apply after the spoiling.
And as you say, the creature can't be blocked, but isn't granted an ability. So it still can't be blocked, after Sudden spoiling.
>>47292175
I have a Hardened Scales on the battlefield, and a Kitchen Finks
When my Kitchen Finks dies and Persist triggers, does hardened scales do anything?
>>47297964
>If one or more +1/+1 counters would be placed on a creature you control, that many plus one +1/+1 counters are placed on it instead.
Persist
>702.78a. Persist is a triggered ability. "Persist" means "When this permanent is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, if it had no -1/-1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a -1/-1 counter on it."
-1/-1 counters aren't +1/+1 counters
>>47297828
Well, it's not really supposed to be a discussion and more a question to a judge. Since, you know, that's the purpose of these threads.
>>47298028
I said that more for his benefit than anyone else's, since we just discussed it recently elsewhere.
Last we found he felt that due to tournament rules, you can't name persistent nightmare for IO, but that the comprehensive rules don't stop it, to summarize.
Not gA, but gimme a minute to collate all the unanswered questions.
>>47295228
>how do I assemble a contraption?
idklol. That's the official answer thus far. That said with Kaladesh you never know...
>>47295307
well >>47297959 has it right. Unblockable used to be a keyword that sudden spoiling would have been able to shut down, but the rules change just sets a blocking condition - not an ability of the card.
>>47297964
It'll put a +1/+1 counter on finks, which will sweep away the -1/-1 counter that persist put on it. What fun!
>>47295984
Yes you can, it just doesn't do what you want.
Do you have any sweet judge promos?
>>47299894
>It'll put a +1/+1 counter on finks, which will sweep away the -1/-1 counter that persist put on it. What fun!
I...highly doubt that, buddy. Hardened Scales only puts +1/+1counters when you'd put a +1/+1 counter anyway.
So here's a question. I summon eldrazi devestator, an opponent uses control magic and takes control of it. Next turn a third player plays naturalize on the control magic and I get it back. Now the person who played control magic uses his turn to take it back. At the main phase of my turn I destroy the enchantment again. Nothing else happens to the devestator until my next turn. At what point does it lose summoning sickness?
A question regarding infinite loops and shortcuts. I am playing EDH, my commander is Gitgud toad, which I have in play. I also have skirge familiar for mana and Wild Mongrel as a discard outlet. My library contains Kozilek, Butcher of Truth and an Ebony Charm as my only remaining wincon. It also contains several other lands.
I have a Dakmor salvage in hand. Can I perform the following loop:
Discard salvage, dredge it back with the Gitgud toad's trigger, repeating this for infinite mill, which will mean infinite draws with gitgud toad every time the dredge hits another land, repeatedly shuffling my library with Kozilek?
Can I then repeat this until I draw the Ebony Charm? Further, can I then re-shuffle with Kozilek and repeatedly draw through my deck until I draw my Ebony Charm again? Can I shortcut this as "draw through deck 40 times, casting Ebony Charm 40 times per opponent, powered by Skirge Familiar"?
>>47292175
Would it be hard for me to become a judge? I already know the rules well, including a good chunk of the advanced rules, and my interpretations of the advanced rules during discussions always seem to line up with judges.
Also, if I became a judge, how long would it be until I'd be allowed to run events at a store level? (FNM and such) I'm wondering because a store opened recently in my area but doesn't run official events because they don't have anyone to run them.
>>47300615
Yes
>>47300656
Really? I've heard some people say there's a random element involved so you can't do it.
>>47300705
It looks like you'd have to rely on drawing lands enough times to do it from here.
>>47300705
I was more saying yes to the "can I perform the following loop" but I imagine that most playgroups would allow you to shortcut it if they don't have a response. Maybe in a tournament you wouldn't be allowed but then >Competetive EDH
>>47300615
You might be able repeat it indefinitely, but you can't do it "Until I draw X". The reason you can't do that is because it's not an event that's certain to happen at any given iteration. You'd just have to manually walk through it.
Also, if I'm understanding the loop right, it's not even a loop guaranteed to draw you Ebony Charm.
>>47300747
>it's not even a loop guaranteed to draw you Ebony Charm.
You reshuffle your library if you mill the Ebony Charm until you do hit it. You have infinite carddraw and infinite shuffles.
>>47300747
Actually, repeated enough times, I'm pretty sure it would. He might just have to cycle it back a few times with Kozilek.
I say it works, but I'd personally make you run through it until it does. In competitive, that'd run your clock down.
>>47300793
>>47300800
No matter how many coins you flip, you're not guaranteed heads.
>>47300615
Wouldn't this run into the not advancing the board state problem 4horsemen has?
>>47300839
But the chances of flipping that many tails in a row grow smaller and smaller as time goes on.
>>47300852
And never reach 0.
>>47300875
Wew lad, seems pretty impossible you wouldn't hit Ebony Charm as many times as you'd like given infinite tries. That's like half life, you just assume it's 0 after some divisions.
>>47300850
Yes, it would.
>>47300912
Magic game rules =/= mathematical limits. It's not the same.
>>47301043
It is for practical purposes. Do you really think a 0.0000000000000000001% chance is feasible? Are you going to ask the person to do the loop as many times as necessary?
>>47300850
>Wouldn't this run into the not advancing the board state problem 4horsemen has?
But you're drawing cards. Heck, you might also use your infinite mana to cast some stuff inbetween.
>>47300912
Let's say each shuffle loop has a 1/2 chance of getting you Ebony Charm.
That means a 1/2 chance of not getting it.
Each trial, assuming you are properly shuffling, is independent.
Hence, each loop has a 1/2 chance of getting you Ebony Charm.
The number of prior loops doesn't matter. No matter how many times you've tried before, you can't be sure you'll get it this time. Or next time. Or any time.
Since you're never guaranteed to get Ebony Charm for any given trial, no number of trials will guarantee getting Ebony Charm.
>>47301063
Yes, and yes. The rules are very clear on this.
>>47301063
If you can't say for certain how many times you need to do it to get the desired result, then it's not a loop.
>>47301083
Sure, and the chances of that never happening are 50% * 50% * 50% and so on for each try. Repeat it as many times as you want.
>doing the loop
Do you have any friends? After it's been demonstrated once, there's no need to do it over and over again. Unless, of course, you believe he's never going to get the 50% outcome in infinite tries.
>>47301113
The actions needed to have a go at it are a loop, since you can dredge as long as you have cards in your library, and Ulamog shuffles everything away. So it's technically infinite.
>>47301157
>The actions needed to have a go at it are a loop
no it's not.
>>47301182
They can be repeated infinite times, you can dredge your library as many times as you want if you have a way to shuffle your graveyard back. That's the entire idea behind the Gitrog deck.
> The shortcut to loop Monolith/Orb until you reach a game state with a specific graveyard composition does not qualify as a being 'clear where the game state will end up as part of the request.' You are looking for a random configuration of cards that includes three specific cards in any order: Dread Return, Sharuum, and Blasting Station.
> 'It is also slow play if a player continues to execute a loop without being able to provide an exact number of iterations and the expected resulting game state.'
That was easy.
>>47301200
And since you can't say for sure when you'll hit the shuffle, it's not a valid MTG loop.
>>47300356
My bad. it's still early.
>>47300447
It loses summoning sickness only after it's gone through an untap step under the same controller as it had during the previous one. So the last turn of your sequence is the first turn it's not summon sick.
>>47301157
Doesn't matter - there's no "infinite" in magic, only arbitrary large numbers. And since there's no way you can declare the EXACT number of loops it will take to get the desired result (even though it's a near statistical certainty to get it) you can't shortcut it.
Yes it's not very intuitive. No, it doesn't matter.
>>47292175
Please come back soon, as usual retards with no idea what they're talking about try to answer questions when you're gone.
>>47301267
I'm sorry to hear you're so butthurt about misunderstanding loops.
>>47301251
So it doesn't matter! Thank you, it's what I've been trying to say all along. If they have no way to stop the actions and both players know what the desired outcome is, asking to demonstrate it is only a way to extend the length of the match. Unless someone believes it's never ever going to happen no matter how many times you try.
>>47301328
The problem you run into is how shortcutting actions work. You have to do three things in order to be allowed to shortcut through a series of repeated actions:
1) Demonstrate the actions are repeatable
2) Define how many repetitions will be made
3) Demonstrate the End State
Point 1 is easy to prove - you have a loop of repeatable actions. Point 2 is where you run into trouble - you cannot state exactly how many times you'll need to dredge and draw (and possibly cycle your deck) to get ebony charm into your hand. And because of that you also fail at part 3, you can't know exactly what the ending state will be (what cards are where, and in what order)
tl;dr Not a loop you can shortcut. Attempting this in a competitive setting will get you disqualified for stalling.
>>47301425
That makes sense, thanks. I believe there's another problem because after the actions resolve there might be a chance there's no change to the board state and that's also slow play? Like two Seeker of Skybreak infinitely untapping each other?
>>47301554
That's a slightly different thing, because your loop makes no changes to the game between the beginning and end states.
It would be different if there's something else that's keying off that otherwise "useless" loop - in your case, seeker of skybreak looping would make an opponent's gideon's avenger get huge (phthisis, anyone?) Or looping 3 oblivion rings with each other would create a shitload of constellation triggers for a grim guardian
>>47301554
>>47301637
Somehow forgot to mention, but yes it's still a textbook example of a slow play error - as in it's what the IPG uses as its example (or used to)
Does Coat of Arms only count the number of creatures and not include their type? Recent game a friend played coat of arms and got all his elves huge and then claimed the ones that were warriors also got the +1/+1 for being warriors, I told him it didn't work that way.
>>47301797
Correct, it only counts the number of creatures. If your opponent has 10 elves and three of them are also warriors it doesn't matter, they all still ""only"" get +9/+9.
>>47301797
It doesn't. Read the additional rulings at the bottom.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=397422
