The Crown Prince has spent much of his years training under the best swordsmen and duelists the Crown could afford from around the world in a great many artstyles and teachings, but hasn't seen true combat until he turned into his early 20's today.
He goes up against a veteran sell-sword, a mercenary with two decades of fighting experience, primarily as a swordsman, and near as many years older than the prince. He's fought in three wars and lived to tell the tale.
Both end up having to fight each other and , for reasons, are wearing similar equipment and armor. Who has the advantage?
>>47234245
I'd guess the sellsword fucks him up hard. Dirty tricks and hidden weapons as opposed to the nice, "ideal" teachings for the prince.
The sellsword knows how to close distance and take false blows that don't hurt in order to get a serious strike on his enemy, and has been practicing doing whatever it takes to win for years.
Sell sword, expierience>technique
Take away everything else and this is old age and treachery vs. youth and good looks. My money is in the old war dog.
When I was s young Marine of about 20 and in tip top fighting shape I wresteled with my platoon Sgt who was about 40. He had that old man strength and fough off several of us young bucks consecutively.
>>47234245
mercenary takes it easily, experience will always trump technique
>>47234245
Experience always wins. Training is just there to help you survive long enough to gain experience.
Assuming the training included strength and endurace training and not just weapon technique, the prince wins. But his training was basically just dueling, he loses
As long as he isn't overly proud, the prince has the advantage. If it was a competition in who could march further, I'd give it to the mercenary, but he just wouldn't have the same volume of training and sparring that the Prince would have.
Also, as far as we can tell this is a one-on-one fight, rather than mass combat; the sellsword's experience limits him to a few easily-maneuvered techniques.
>>47235405
>the sellsword's experience limits him to a few easily-maneuvered techniques.
Not really. The thing with experience is that it's muscle memory in action and muscle memory is FAST. It's why boxers are able to dodge blows in the blink of an eye--they detect a stimulus and react without using the cognitive portion of their brain. Learning to utilize this unthinking thought with strategic thinking is what makes a good fighter. A well-experienced fighter is going to have an advantage because his reflexes are so much more diverse compared to his opponent's, who has only gone through the motions in a controlled environment. An inexperienced guy can only react as he was trained to what he was trained to react to, otherwise he needs a pause while his brain figures out what to tell his muscles to do. In combat, especially close combat, that pause is deadly.
>>47234245
Everyone has given the reasons, and it hands down the older man.
20 years as a merc is a long time, and you don't get there from luck.
>>47235405
> the sellsword's experience limits him to a few easily-maneuvered techniques.
20 years of fighting people who actively want you dead, knowing the flow of the fight, and having practical experience means he'll have a lot of techniques that the prince, in all his lessons, probably has never seen.
I also would like to point out that your pictured character actually lends to the practically experienced swordsman as well. Cunningham was a fop, yes, but he was a fop who has been a commissioned officer in warfare against the French and Spanish, and who killed people in duels and street fights for fun. The only reason he lost to Roy was because of hubris and "muh highland honor" fiat
>>47235681
Someone with lots of formal training will not only have similar reflexes, but more efficient and effective responces. Your assumption that a fight doesn't count if it's not to the death is nonsense
>>47235778
This guy (>>47235706) already said my response.
>20 years of fighting people who actively want you dead, knowing the flow of the fight, and having practical experience means he'll have a lot of techniques that the prince, in all his lessons, probably has never seen.
Sellsword.
Experience is massively important in combat.
>>47234245
Somebody post a picture of Bronn, I don't have any but damn would he be relevant.
>>47235681
Sparring goes a long way to training that pause out of you, though. Which is something that any teacher worth half a damn would be doing with him (considering we've said the best teachers and swordsmen, not just 'good enough'). Kind of like professional boxers, who don't tend to just fight people to the death to train. What they do have, though, is trainers to observe and correct their technique. Kind of like someone who actually has people teaching them fencing, instead of learning just enough not to die against people more concerned with drinking and surviving between combats than with training.
>>47235706
I didn't realize I needed it, but do you have more old, grizzled veterans?
Grizzled war veteran every damn time. There's a reason why Edward III sent the Black Prince as a boy into battle, and it was for his son to get experience in the field of battle backed up by his guard so he'd be prepared for the rest of his life.
>>47236469
Can do.
>>47236234
As the saying goes, "Experience is the best teacher." Doesn't matter how long you've swung your sword around, you don't know what it can do until you've brought it to bear against someone unpredictable, and without the safety blanket of knowing they aren't REALLY going to fight you, merely teach. Further, training in a formal manner means building reflexes to certain things.
Example: a police officer once spent several months training to disarm someone by having his wife hold his pistol, attempt to draw it, and then taking the pistol away. He then gave the pistol back and they would repeat the process many times over. When his training was tested, when he rounded a corner in a convenience store and encountered a man with a pistol, he disarmed the man... and then handed his pistol right back to him. Fortunately, his partner then tackled the guy, but this illustrates the point: training means building muscle memory, which allows you to react speedily to certain stimuli, but only in a certain way.
Experience is the only thing that allows you to separate these reflexes from your higher thought processes, to recognize a rote response when you see it, and to exploit it. An experienced fighter doesn't need to know what the scripted parry for a certain blow is; he just needs to see someone throw it the same way a few times to figure out how to approach it.
>>47236469
Also, pic related.
>>47234245
>>47234245
I'd give it to the sellsword. The prince may have a wide variety of styles and techniques at his disposable, but he likely doesn't have the experience to put those into critical situations. Aside from that, the sellsword is likely used to green opponents, and is experienced in ways to put them well out of their comfort zone. Being old in a young man's profession means he's likely used to fighting dirty, and taking every little chance to take advantage of his opponent
Aside from all that, the prince might not be at his best. The battlefield's a far cry from the training room, and seeing as this is his first taste of true combat, he's likely nervous, and maybe a little scared
>>47235110
I'd imagine most competent swordsmen tutors would also strive to train their apprentices to actually not be fat fucks and have strength and agility training as well.
How many good martial arts teachers focus only on technique without exercises?
>>47236689
I would say prince wins.
He is younger, stronger, eats ebtter and have not handicapating injures.
The amount of fight he was in is probably the same as the merc. Professional armies pass more time amrching, preparing and drinking then actualy fighting.
Also they rarely have one to one fight.
>>47234245
Every tutor the prince has had, has gone easy in him for the risk of loosing their head.
>shit I accidentily stabbed him in the arm
>"off with his head"
>"but he was supposed to block!"
Sellsword would win
>>47237255
You might want to check your posts over before posting anon.
>>47237255
>>47237255
This is just flat-out wrong (aside from the grammar and spelling, which is obvious)
If someone's been a mercenary for around 20+ years, they would have been weeded out by bad nutrition ages ago. Along with that, he's likely in great shape, seeing as he'd likely consider retirement if his body wasn't well enough to suit his reputation (something a mercenary active for that long would likely have). 20+ years of experience has likely given him plenty of fighting experience in all angles, including combat within massed ranks as well as the occasional spot of single combat. Add in the fact that there's probably not a weapon or a style he hasn't seen, come up against, and beaten, the prince's training won't likely give him much of an edge.
>>47237332
This is an equally retarded post. Simply put, it's very likely a master trainer would have certain stipulations and agreements that go along with the payment/contract to train the prince. In fact, if we're talking about the very best swordsman and weaponmasters in the land, it's very likely part of the deal is that they push the young prince to his limit.
>>47234245
>Sell sword
>Three wars
>Two decades of experience
He is probably better at making excuses that at actually fighting.
"May God give us a hundred years of war and not a single day of battle", etc etc.
>>47237255
try thinking like this...
>1% trustfund baby, who spends his money and time on professional executive operations courses, a high end AR platform, and MilSim/TacSim. Body by daddy's personal trainer
Vs.
>A multi-tour, frontline combat veteran who's been in several theaters, knows his weapon and rattle's every in and out, and been in more engagements than he can count. Body by military drill and active combat.
Learning to fight, kill and survive is way different from actually doing it. Theory over practice. The Vet knows has done this before, and very little is a surprise.
How long had they been preparing for this fight and did they know their opponent?
They might just make out
>>47236228
Practice over theory every single time.
>>47237854
There's also the act of killing itself. Killing is a traumatic experience for every human who isn't a psychopath, and the first kill or movement before the first kill can be very jarring and cause emotional distraught. That moment of shock as the Princeling is about to draw blood for the first time is enough for a veteran to get a thrust in.
>>47235706
>you don't get there from luck.
Not luck alone, no, but don't discount it. I have met some pretentious faggots that act like they are above luck for whatever reason, but it's bullshit. Luck always plays some role. Combat is hardly an exception.
>>47235706
You could very realistically spend twenty years as a soldier, and fight in multiple battles, without ever actually killing anybody. War is 99% drudgery and typhus and 1% fighting.
>>47237854
I dunno man, we're talking about a man in his mid forties with twenty years of old wounds and broken bones. No guarantee the merc is actually any good or does much fighting.
Like, right now I'm picturing a Nicomo Cosca style scummy Italian mercenary. A tour of duty for a merc back then was mostly sieges, "foraging" and charging your employer as much as you can.
That crown prince will be able to fight all day, the merc wont. He'll be fairly shag tired soon enough
Sort of reminds me of this exchange.
>>47240994
Not that Berserk is the pinnacle of realism or anything. Just the conversation they're having.
Why would a prince be duelling a mercenary?
>>47234245
In a technical fight, the Prince.
The Merc knows this, so it won't be a technical fight.
>>47234245
I would say the sellsword.
The prince's training would largely be based on dueling techniques and methods of swordplay, but there's a reason the sellsword has survived three wars.
The wolf runs foe his dinner. The rabbit runs for his life.
>>47241052
Prince got separated from his guard, mercenary wants the price put on the prince's head.
Speaking of mercenaries, does anyone know any good reading on historical mercenarism?
The prince buys the sell-sword. Both of them win.
>>47241052
Prince wants to test his skill, and pays the nearest skilled swordsmen very handsomely he knows to fight him in a duel?
>>47241052
He's a captain in contact with the prince, got pissed and ran his mouth. Challenged to a duel and for some arbitrary reason doesn't just run away or say no
>>47241052
This also reminds me of Berserk, oddly enough.
>>47241125
I don't know why no one thought this, but yeah, it works
>>47241149
Your first life or death situation in a nice safe controlled environment. A bit sick, but I could totally see it happening. I've heard of worse.
>>47237854
Indeed. A young man full of confidence and training goes into battle expecting to win, thinking himself invincible.
Meanwhile a veteran dreads the thought of dueling another man, even though he might know the odds are in his favor, the deck can never be stacked enough in a game where you wager your life. Not fear, mind you, merely that cloying cautious uneasiness.
>>47241102
Why is there a lone mercenary trying to kill the prince? Why doesn't either of them call for their buddies? Why doesn't the prince run?
>>47241127
Prince wins, because regardless of ability the mercenary doesn't want to harm him.
>>47241199
>Why is there a lone mercenary trying to kill the prince?
You don't kill nobility. You ransom them. But that doesn't require him to be...fully intact.
>Why doesn't either of them call for their buddies?
Opportunity waits for no one.
>Why doesn't the prince run?
Pride and arrogance.
Come on anon, you're more imaginative than this. You could think of a dozen ways this could go down if you wanted to.
>>47234245
In a formal duel, the prince will elegantly and precisely kill the mercenary.
But on the battlefield or in a street fight or under any other non-controlled circumstances, the mercenary will fucking destroy him.
Are you guys really saying that a 20 years old boxer trained from youth will not be a able to beat his 40 years old trainer that might have been the world champion but now is not in his best physical shape?
Twenty years of medieval warfare and you aren't dead/completely disabled? No way this old man hasn't learned the dirtiest tricks in the book.
>>47241279
That depends on a number of factors. For example, boxing is a lot more rules heavy than this hypothetical medieval duel with swords would be. The younger man could probably win on endurance alone in a boxing match, but even that's hardly guaranteed.
>>47241237
Kill or ransom, why is the mercenary alone somewhere and just stumbles over the prince?
>opportunity waits for no one
Pretty weak argument. You don't grow old as a veteran by taking unnecessary risks. Even if he did knock the prince out without sustaining injury, he'd still have to carry him on his own, with the prince's guards who knows where.
>pride and arrogance
That I can buy.
>>47241279
Not if the 20 year old is fighting his first match, no.
>>47241343
>Kill or ransom, why is the mercenary alone somewhere and just stumbles over the prince?
He was thinking of deserting.
Do you really want me to tell you a story? This is something you could do yourself if you weren't actively looking for holes. It's a hypothetical; just roll with it.
>>47241368
I'm not looking for holes, I'm looking to fill one.
>>47234245
A 40 year old sellsword whose been through three wars? Well I can only imagine how many injuries and diseases he's contracted over the years of close proximity with equally dirty warrior bumpkins and camp followers.
I'll give it to the prince due to his lack of constant chronic pain in various parts of his body.
>>47241343
Even if he's barely twenty he's been going to tourneys for six or eight years
>>47236802
>Example: a police officer once spent several months training to disarm someone by having his wife hold his pistol, attempt to draw it, and then taking the pistol away. He then gave the pistol back and they would repeat the process many times over. When his training was tested, when he rounded a corner in a convenience store and encountered a man with a pistol, he disarmed the man... and then handed his pistol right back to him.
[citation needed]
>>47241279
>Are you guys really saying that a 20 years old boxer trained from youth will not be a able to beat his 40 years old trainer that might have been the world champion but now is not in his best physical shape?
Most people seem to have interpreted "trained by the best his entire life" as "lounged about being told how awesome he is."
I have no idea why.
>>47241549
Being trained by the best doesn't make you the best.
>>47241504
And the mercenary has been fighting in wars for much longer.
>>47241052
It's an honor duel.
A dignitary from a neighboring kingdom insulted the prince, and being the obnoxious lordling that he is, he challenged this noble to a duel over it.
The foreign dignitary doesn't have an ounce of fighting experience but isn't lacking in gold, and offers his bodyguard as a stand in. He may also think that this will deter the prince from going through with the duel.
It didn't. Now his experienced bodyguard is fighting the King's heir in the street. It's an awkward situation, and the prince's handlers are nowhere to be seen.
The dignitary has asked the mercenary to go easy on the prince, lest this escalate any further, but unbeknownst to his employer the merc has a grudge against the local sovereign and is prepared to see this through.
>>47241387
Any better?
How much loyalty does the sellsword have?
>>47241549
>>47241616
At the same time, people are interpreting "fighting in wars for 20 years" as "being Rambo and fighting everything that moves" when >>47237784
Makes a good point.
It could very well be as Robert Baratheon said
>He could have lingered on the edge of the battle with the smart boys and today, his wife would be making him misreable, his children would be ingrates, and he'd wake up three times in the night to piss into a bowl
>>47241671
>The aged sellsword is a condotierri
>>47241643
Why would the mercenary want to fight a crown prince when he must know his life is forfeit should he win? Why would the dignitary pay the mercenary if he wants it called off, especially since his life too would be forfeit?
training with any kind of competent trianer had him fight simulated fights.
You guys are under impression that training means theoretical work. If the trainer was there not only to steal his father money but to actualy teach stuff, the prince knows what is being smaeshed in the face and how to dodge it at the last second.
What period are we talking? Medieval when prince father have fought and raped countless enemies or 18th century where the father is a fat fuck with no idea of what real fight is like?
The sellsword probably knows some one time dirty tricks that could solve the fight, but dirty tricks are not guaranteed to win. And if they are without armor the fight is very short, giving space for like 1 trick.
>>47241789
>Why would the mercenary want to fight a crown prince when he must know his life is forfeit should he win?
It's a hell of a grudge. This is a golden opportunity for payback and the mercenary doesn't have a whole hell of a lot to lose. This is likely related to the aforementioned grudge.
>Why would the dignitary pay the mercenary if he wants it called off, especially since his life too would be forfeit?
He has no idea his man is looking to kill the boy, and the mercenary did not divulge this when asked to "go easy on him," which was clearly code for "throw the match and lets get the fuck out of here."
>>47241876
Importantly, it implies the trainer doesn't know these dirty tricks, and wouldn't have taught them to the prince first so he'd know how to counter them, since they'd be likely in any actual fight.
>>47234245
My questions boil down to
>what are the terms of the fight?
>how physically fit are prince and veteran? How are they built?
>how good at fighting are the prince and veteran?
>how long exactly has the prince been training? And how rigorously?
>>47241789
>Why would the mercenary want to fight a crown prince when he must know his life is forfeit should he win
Because
>the merc has a grudge against the local sovereign and is prepared to see this through.
Are you trying not to read?
>Why would the dignitary pay the mercenary if he wants it called off, especially since his life too would be forfeit?
And that will help the dignitary in what manner? Obviously the merc doesn't care about his last bag of coin he's not going to earn.
Deliberately being obtuse doesn't help any conversation.
>>47240680
>>47240845
Accepted
>>47240897
>>47241443
>>47241643
>>47241671
But that is getting into subjectual changes from the main question: 20 years of practical fighting vs, 20 years of sparring and training.
>>47241073
>In a technical fight, the Prince.
>The Merc knows this, so it won't be a technical fight.
End of discussion.
>>47241108
What period and location? WW1 mercs are way different from modern contractors or Medieval mercs.
>>47241279
Boxing is a physically demanding sport, but it has rules.
Real combat doesn't.
>>47241335
The kid knows what he was taught. The trainer knows what he's learned. HUGE difference in technique and skill.
>>47241653
Depends on your contract.
If MMA has taught me anything its that;
there is not enough information in your post to decide.
who is bigger? Who is faster? Who is Smarter? How old is each one? Did the prince do well in his training? Did the sell sword live because he is lucky?
variable mah nigguh. Not enough info given.
>>47241959
Yeah, it's weird how everyone is hopping on the "muh experience" bandwagon while not asking for much if any details about the training and what it entails. They just assume the training has to suck and only teach purely academic methods of fighting useful under ideal circumstances without much, if any, practical application.
He could have trained with hardened mercenaries. He could have been sparring every day with them. And guards. And knights. And fellow nobles. That, on top of plenty of exercise, and techniques from hither to yon.
But we're acting like none of this matters because his life hasn't been on the line. And that every mercenary is some hard ass that fought every battle that came his way and survived because he's just that damn good. Bet he has a cool scar across his eye, right? Can't fuck with that!
>>47242024
>But that is getting into subjectual changes from the main question: 20 years of practical fighting vs, 20 years of sparring and training.
"is training more valuable than real world experience" is the question fundamentally and the answer is "it depends".
>>>>47241279
It's not even that, they're saying that that 20 year old boxer wouldn't be able to beat a 40 year old street fighter. They're parroting "experience is the best teacher" but ignoring that the Prince/trained boxer has knowledge gained from dozens of people over decades of fighting vs the merc's single lifetime of experience. Not only will the trained participant have this knowledge, but their trainers would use their experience to design optimal training with the intention of building vital skills and adjusting those skills to a resistant opponent with sparring.
>>47234245
The prince
>A commoner
>Beating gods chosen
Oh I'm laffin
>>47234245
The prince. The sellsword has had decades to develop his tricks, but the prince has been taught the tricks of dozens of masters, has had better duelists to practice against, is more experience in the dueling ring (as opposed to the battlefield) and has had the basics drilled into him since he was a child.
>>47241959
>trainer doesn't know these dirty tricks
Or the trainer decided not to teach them thinking them not important.
I have never seen a martial arts trainer explain the sucker punch, but I doubt they do not know it. It is just not a very useful technique in a sport match.
>>47242308
Training how to respond to sucker punches is like. . .really basic martial arts.
>>47242308
Seriously? That's the first thing my trainer explained to me. Other guy will throw the first punch as soon as he sees a chance, and it will 90% of the time be a right haymaker because he's right handed and he thinks you aren't looking. This is literally the first shit I learned.
>>47242213
Yeah, the idea seems to be that training itself is not an experience. That proper training and preparation somehow doesn't count in this case.
You're not going to die if you screw up. How do you expect the memories to take without staring death in the face? You gotta have that adrenaline pumping through you! Otherwise it's in one ear and out the other.
I don't know if I believe that. This isn't like trying to teach someone to swim by describing the act of swimming, or teaching someone to ride a bike without them ever actually getting on the bike.
Training is going to involve a lot of sparring, which is going to help with muscle memory. And it was never specified who he's training with, just that he's trained with a variety of teachers. And I would think at least some of those teachers have firsthand experience with a lot of what's been discussed, and have tried to prepare their student for it.
>>47242322
>>47242373
isn't the suker punch a feint to the groin and then a right hook?
>>47242457
A sucker punch is any punch where someone isn't looking. A feint to the groin is a good start with that, but it isn't always a feint to the groin. Could be a left jab, could be pointing at the ground followed by an uppercut, could be a haymaker when your back's turned.
>>47242457
I always thought a sucker punch was throwing a punch into the face of an unprepared opponent. Someone you might have been arguing with, but wasn't aware that the conflict had escalated to the level of physical violence until the moment your fist graced their face while their guard was still down.
Conversely, maybe you just decided to randomly punch someone that wasn't expecting it. Like this picture.
Gropey obviously favours the old fatlus because he is one.
However, 40 years old is about as old as soldiers get before they're put out to pasture and are retired or promoted to desk jobs.
He's probably not very fit because he's getting old. He's probably not in great fighting shape because you don't spend two decades doing something like fucking Medeival Warfare and maintain your peak efficiency. As a 'swordman' he probably didn't do much anyway seeing as how the brunt of the fighting is on the polearms/pikes/what have you.
You're also discounting the fact that people have been able to watch the man fight for years. Maybe even the princes teachers are old foes and know his nuances.
You guys talk about a merc having dirty tricks but ignore that you can be taught all those same tricks pretty easily.
Also consider that as a prince, he has the ability to have live training partners and has enough influence to not give a shit if they're maimed.
I feel like the people in this thread have never seen combat, like proper 1v1 combat prep not gropey's faggy renactment theatre troupe. We're talking scouting your opponent, breaking down their style with your coaches, strength and conditioning. Preparing counters and safe techniques. Having you hit your peak conditioning as the fight comes up.
Experience plays a factor but so does everything else.
>>47242308
You obviously have some pretty bad McDojo trainers.
Case and point; Oblique kicks.
>>47236132
>20 years of walking long distances and massacring villages
FTFY
>>47235706
Man what the fuck is that coif supposed to protect against? Arrow grazes? A guy trying to cut your head with a knife?
Completely useless.
>>47242308
Covering his opponent's eyes with his hand and roundhouse kicking them in the ribs is the way my master won the first 3 martial arts tournaments he ever entered, and he was damn sure to teach us that one.
>>47242762
Damn son, a bit hostile, huh? That tripfriend do something to get on your bad side?
>>47243021
Some people despise trip fags on principle. Which is fairly reasonable, to be fair.
>>47242970
The ears and the back of the neck, maybe?
>>47243021
With Martial arts being a big part of my life and having hung around a lot of martial arts forums like bullshido, i can understand his anger. Reading through this thread and all the people thinking experience is automatically better no matter the circumstance is almost physically painful. If anyone in this thread wants to see what a fighter whose only teacher was experience fights like, look up scott ferrozzo, spoiler, his fighting skills are dog shit.
>>47242202
Not so sure that getting away from the details and getting more abstract is what we want to do. Can't speak for OP but if I'd put this up the details of the hypothetical would be important. Like the fact that its a young man against an old man, details like that.
>>47241504
No, he hasn't
It would be "his first real taste" of combat, ie his first match
>>47245178
Nah the prompt says "hasn't seen true combat" until now. Now that's open to interpretation and I would imagine that" true" combat is the life or death situation he finds himself in now with the merc.
This interpretation is also supported by the fact that nobles competed in tournaments all the time, for fun and for glory and experience. If we're assuming its a medieval setting the the crown prince would most certainly have been going to plenty of tournaments.
Prince wins because no merc would be stupid enough to kill a royal
>>47243395
If modern martial artists fought to the death they might be a relevant argument, but as it stands they have no more relevance than volleyball players.
