I have a query that I propose to /tg/. If you have a BBEG that might not actually be your BBEG but instead being manipulated, what kind of manipulator would you want? Lets say you've got a demonic warlord or cruel wizard or something and they've been tricked or coerced into this position. Do we use an Old God? A daemon? What would make the most sense to you.
>>47219480
Personally I'd go with someone a lot more small time than that. A crime boss who's too clever by far and knows well enough to keep his name out of the big boy list, but has his fingers in everyone's pockets.
Hell, go even further. In a book I read recently, one of the world's best spy rings that basically controls an entire city is run by a fat guy in a bar.
>>47219480
Pussywhippedby a succubus
>>47219480
>>47219689
Cockblockedelf
>>47219480
Whatever it is should need a reason to be doing the manipulating. A sealed evil arranging its release is fine, but a fairly standard plot. If you want something less common, then you want a manipulator who is not intimidating on their own - manipulation is their greatest asset. Consider an Imp with too-high mental ability scores angling for a promotion, for a D&D example.
The general plot should play out that the PCs discover this villain and want to destroy them. They're physically capable of doing so, so the manipulator should try to consistently have leverage. Don't always use sticks, either - holding a loved one hostage might work in the short term, but heroes have a way of getting around that shit. A good manipulator may start out with grudging cooperation, but should offer to help out the PCs with their personal issues and overarching quests, and do so with all honesty and earnestness. Just generally do nice things. Get them wondering what the greater good really is. Keep as many irons in the fire as possible secret, so they don't have a good idea of the extent of the evil you do but are personally familiar with the good. Make friends. Make them WANT to help you.
You'll probably never corrupt them into doing evil themselves, but you probably stand a good chance of getting them to look the other way, maybe even help keep you safe. And for good PCs to do nothing is all evil needs.
>>47219934
Hmm, thanks, but the manipulator is one controlling the lord of the demi-plane, I just haven't decided what kind of manipulator is. Those are very good ideas though, thank you.
>>47219634
Combined with this, having a "weaker" manipulator is interesting.
>>47219689
>>47219778
thanks fellas, maybe fore like a bandit or something not a dark lord heh
>>47219984
>Hmm, thanks, but the manipulator is one controlling the lord of the demi-plane, I just haven't decided what kind of manipulator is. Those are very good ideas though, thank you.
How is the lord of the demi-plane going down? What you want here is contrast. You (probably) don't want this reveal to be "There was an even more powerful threat all along! Go do exactly the same thing you just did, only more." If taking down this lord is going to be some sort of political intrigue quest built around assembling an alliance powerful enough to challenge the guy, then perhaps an Old God who must be defeated through ritual rather than force, or a daemon who would split and divide an army and can therefore only be beaten by a small, united group of heroes in epic combat, might be appropriate. On the other hand, if the lord is going to be defeated in a climactic battle with the PCs, then you wouldn't want that daemon again because the resolution will just be the same thing again.
>>47219480
Something with knowledge beyond time, but little to no physical presence. The cause of uncountable acts of evil and untold misery, but exists in a form beyond the players ability to ever meaningfully stop at the source.
I once did this with a figure, dressed in black and white rags, that the players met in a circle of standing stones in the middle of an otherwise abandoned town. He traded them some unique magic items in return for things they had collected along the road, told them a story about an old miserly man who traded his soul to the devil in return for taking his gold with him to hell, and gave them some useful tips about where the macguffian they were looking for was, and more importantly where it was not.
As the campaign progressed, more than once they found accounts of a being matching the description of the man in rags going back thousands of years, the first account being giving humans the knowledge of the written word in return for something far more precious which can no longer be named or remembered. The kingdom consumed by plague, the BBEG and his insane quest of revenge/redemption, the grieving mother tricked into feeding her children to a monster... the man in rags at the center of every story.
The players eventually realized that this guy was the REAL problem, and they started second guessing themselves because they met the man in rags so what if what he told them was to cause even more misery too? But they never found him again, and they are not entirely sure if they could have killed him even if they did.
There are no stories about anyone who has ever treated the man in rags with anything other than courtesy. None.
>>47220244
It's more of an option, depending on what they do, they may or may not discover the puppetmaster, they could kill the Lord, and it would free the denizens and the players, and set the place back into the material, but technically the manipulator should still be alive. Perhaps the plane still exists lost then, even if the lord dies, it was something I was working on. If they can break the mind control or whatever on the lord, I think it would be fitting for him to help the players, physically or otherwise.
I do agree that two climactic fights would be... pretty anti-climactic though.
>>47220270
This is interesting, I like the ideas teasing the players in such a way. Perhaps this entity may interact with them directly then, but shroud himself in mystery.
>>47219480
>If you have a BBEG that might not actually be your BBEG but instead being manipulated,
This sentence is a perfect example of why "BBEG" is retarded.
>>47220393
Meh, it's an easy term for something I've left undefined because I haven't worked out yet. If I said "evil sorcerer" and the "devil he made a bargain with" that specifies my request too much.
>>47219480
An immediate subordinate, someone much less powerful than their boss, but far more conniving and ambitious. Except they're not trying to overthrow their boss. They're perfectly fine being second fiddle, but first fiddle had better be the biggest, most hardcore dick-swinger around. When it all falls apart and boss looks like he's going down, they hightail it out of there because they know better than to stay onboard a sinking ship.
Depends on what your BBEG is, but one thing you could do is have him be pay rolled by a "good" character as part of an elaborate scheme to further his political goals. Palpatine comes to mind.
Or made by a good guy who's fallen out of favor to try and bring himself back into relevance, A la Hank Pim in avengers.
>>47220409
Have you heard of "villain"?
You could always go with an as of yet unnamed boss, some demon or spirit, or extradimensional being they are in cahoots with, but these concepts are rather well trodden. With proper presentation they're fine, primarily foreshadowing the existence of such a person or entity long before the principle antagonist is defeated.
If you want something a bit more out of the box, consider having one of the primary villain's consultants or more powerful followers trick their boss into pursuing an avenue which actually won't create the desired results. For example, the bad guy is seeking to unseal some demon army he believes he will be able to control in order to dominate the region, but in fact the sorcerer completely invented the idea that the one who unsealed them would be their boss, and instead is simply fulfilling his end of a pact made with greater demonic powers to allow their armies to ravage the land.
You don't even necessarily need to have each factor be a competing evil. For example, a wizard who has long been the thorn in the side of an empire gets a tip about the location of some mcguffin that will grant him incredible destructive power, which he manages to obtain and tear up a lot of the capital city before being put down by heroes. However, the tip was actually delivered to him by an agent of the emperor, who knew the consequences, and intentionally provoked the wizard in order to justify disbanding and persecuting the growing and popular mages guild, which he may or may not have reason to believe are becoming impossible to control or even predict.
>>47221242
Sure, but it's not four letters
>>47221155
Hmm, this is interesting. I like this, especially the second idea.
>>47221627
This is pretty clever as well.
>>47220500
Hmm.
All good ideas guys, thanks a bunch.
>>47221627
*The sorcerer he's working with
Personally, I'm using a control-freak Queen with a convincing fake smile and a lot of innate royal magic potential.
>>47221763
It also doesn't mean what you think it does.
