What's the most evil thing a lawful-good character is allowed to do?
Troll post on /tg/.
While still being Lawful Good?
Drug someone with Lawful Good knock-out poison, then stick them in a crystal that brainwashes and forcibly makes them lawful Good against their will.
Take a life. Paladins throughout the times haven't gotten smite for nothing.
>>47144253
Punch the GM.
Worship god.
One of my characters stabbed a female villager to death and cut off her head and held it in front of a peephole to convince her children to open the door so that he could slaughter them as well. This was because he wanted to become an assassin but my DM said for each additional person I killed I would get to roll my first assassin hit die again and take the highest result I rolled. So basically I stabbed like four children to death for like 3 extra hit points.
I know that doesn't answer your question OP but honestly your question is fucking retarded, a lawful good character is "allowed" to do whatever he wants but his alignment might change. Also I believe it is the intentions of the action that count; if the villain tricks the pally into accidentally murdering 2 million people it's not cause for an alignment check. Also aligment is a stupid fucking mechanic and literally every discussion of it dissolves into subjective wankery, there is no discussion because it's vague as fuck and does not represent realistic human motivations. Real humans are motivated by fame, green, lust, protecting family, rage, or thirst for revenge. Or similar shit. A few might be motivated by actual alignment, but alignment is a shitty way of representing character motivation and is really only used by D&D babies who don't know how to really roleplay.
>>47144253
Paladins are not stupid, and in general there is no rule of Lawful Good against killing enemies. The old adage about nits making lice applies. Also, as I have often noted, a paladin can freely dispatch prisoners of Evil alignment that have surrendered and renounced that alignment in favor of Lawful Good. They are then sent on to their reward before they can backslide.
An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is by no means anything but Lawful and Good. Prisoners guilty of murder or similar capital crimes can be executed without violating any precept of the alignment. Hanging is likely the usual method of such execution, although it might be beheading, strangulation, etc. A paladin is likely a figure that would be considered a fair judge of criminal conduct.
The Anglo-Saxon punishment for rape and/or murder of a woman was as follows: tearing off of the scalp, cutting off of the ears and nose, blinding, chopping off of the feet and hands, and leaving the criminal beside the road for all bypassers to see. I don't know if they cauterized the limb stumps or not before doing that. It was said that a woman and child could walk the length and breadth of England without fear of molestation then...
Chivington might have been quoted as saying "nits make lice," but he is certainly not the first one to make such an observation as it is an observable fact. If you have read the account of wooden Leg, a warrior of the Cheyenne tribe that fought against Custer et al., he dispassionately noted killing an enemy squaw for the reason in question.
I am not going to waste my time and yours debating ethics and philosophy. I will state unequivocally that in the alignment system as presented in OAD&D, an eye for an eye is lawful and just, Lawful Good, as misconduct is to be punished under just laws.
>>47144302
Kill people?
>>47144470
Gygax, I respect your opinions on this, but you realize that dispatching prisoners seems very unLawful Good to do, right? Especially when you yourself specifically make clear there's a risk of backsliding - like the should only be able to do it if they don't get to linger on what they've done or go even further. And for most people, being Lawful Good means being the better man and turning the other check, not eye for an eye. That seems far closer to vengeance, which I personally would define as Lawful Neutral.
You're basically holding up a bunch of rules common in ancient and early medieval times, with a different understanding of morality and reason than we have today. It's not fair to expect players to be able to so easily work their way into this mindset. I can't consider your opinion on this a valid end to the debate.
>>47144646
I think it goes into the "what right do I have to let them live to commit further evil acts?" deal.
>>47144253
The thing I don't get about alignment threads is why it's assumed that people in a certain alignment can NEVER act outside it for a single moment without shifting forever. Hell, you could get a room of 10 Lawful Good people and have 20 different answer to whatever baby hitlerorc scenario someone though of for the week.
>>47144309
>kill a female villager to death and cut off her head and held it in front of a peephole to convince her children to open the door so that he could slaughter them as well
That's fucked up, anon.
>>47144724
But the mention of the Anglo-Saxon punishment of rape makes it seem more like rule by fear rather than law. You know what I mean? You aren't doing what you're told because the law guarantees you're not punished for that, you're doing what you're told because you're afraid of the consequences of not doing so. There's no protection, no 'innocent until proven guilty' - only the paladin being considered a fair judge, jury and executioner. Which isn't a bad thing, assuming the paladin is really good and not abusing his power.
>>47144727
That is true in most cases, but some alignments are tied to certain classes that aren't supposed to deviate from them - paladins traditionally have to be Lawful Good, barbarians have to be Chaotic, monks have to be Lawful.
And then you get into that one philosophical argument, I forget the name - if you start stacking up grains of sand, at what point does it become a heap? At what point can you definitively say a line has been crossed in terms of alignment if you can stretch and tug at it so?
>ITT edgy relativists
>>47144792
>makes it seem more like rule by fear rather than law
Rule by X is still rule, and rule is law.
>rip the "do not remove" tag off mattresses
>>47144646
You're letting your modern liberalism get in the way.
In medieval times they didn't have huge prisons where they tenderly care for thousands of inmates who committed terrible acts. They had squallid hellholes that you rotted in for a little while, followed by brutal punishment. There's no rehabilitation or job training or education. Only suffering and punishment.
Dragging an ogre back to civilization just because it surrendered and claimed it would convert to a Lawful Good God not only doesn't change it's ultimate fate, it puts a huge burden on you AND it's dangerous for civilization.
>>47144870
Okay, but we're talking about LG here. Rule by fear is fairly LE/LN.
>>47144646
Dispatching prisoners after converting them to a good alignment is literally the most humane thing possible. If they die while good, they go to heaven. If they live long enough to return to their evil ways, then die, they go to hell. QED killing them is the best option.
>>47144967
But fantasy games, at least usually, aren't set in the real middle ages. You can have more modern ideas of prisons, or at least alternative ways of punishing criminals - forced labor, conscription in the military. You can take that orge and make him work for you. Don't just execute him - at least let some sort of due process handle things if you have the option.
Poop.
>>47144967
Unless you were important and/or had money, in which case you were afforded concessions according to your rank, or could buy them.
Sometimes you were merely confined for long periods of time while awaiting ransom, or to extract compliance on some issue your captor wanted.
Maybe you waited long enough and you were freed by a change in the political climate/leadership.
Although yeah, nice as the digs were compared to "The Hole" if you were getting beheaded you were still eventually gonna get beheaded.
But there were cases where conditions weren't so bad.
Thomas More was initially well treated, although they scaled back his luxury to turn the screws, for instance.
>>47144253
not tip the pizza guy
>>47144253
Alignment is not a straitjacket. A lawful good character can do anything he wants; he doesn't run on programming scripts.
>>47144967
This. You aren't placing yourself in the shoes of the people of the setting.
As a dirt farming peasant in DnD life is cheap. Wild animals, bandits, warlords, mythical beasts akin to natural disasters, evil intelligent abominations, fey spirits, and every other threat under the sun is constantly on the verge of violating you, your livelihood, and your mother six ways to Sunday. If you're lucky then you live in a place of law and there is someone out there up in the food chain to help you. Be they evil and defending their 'property' or good and actually trying to enact justice, ANY SORT OF DEFENSE IS A GREAT BOON. And trust me, if your sister has been dragged off as a war wife by an Orc tribe, you'd better believe you won't find satisfaction until you get some green skinned head on a spike.
Severe punishment is the only form of deterrence that has any hope of holding off the threats of the realm. Any less and you're just inviting unlawful tragedy into your land.
>>47144253
Dispatching judgement based on personal morality.
>>47145088
By that logic, paladins should all just kill each other en masse to avoid the risk of any of them falling. Similarly, it'd be best to kill any good creature you come across lest they be tempted by evil at some point and thus deny themselves salvation.
>>47144253Consensual sex in the missionary position
>>47146905Princess Ulena gasped as Sir Bercham suddenly wrapped his strong fingers around her slender digits. Her other hand came up instinctively, and before she could think it was gently laying upon his own hand. The knight seemed surprised to feel the warmth of her palm on the back of his hand, and as she looked up at him with her large brown eyes to seek reassurance, he could not meet her gaze. He tried to speak, to apologize, but any thought of words was stiffed as her thumb began softly stroking along a scar on his knuckle with a gentle, curious touch. She paused, noticing his attention, but he squeezed her hand again, urging her softly to continue. Red-faced, she gently pulled her hand out of his grip, only to bring their hands back together, intertwining their fingers, his rough hands dwarfing her dainty ones. Her heart was pounding, so focused was she on the warmth of his hands that she was taken by complete surprise as he, in a moment of sheer passion, brought her hands up to press his lips gently against the back of her hand.
>>47144253
Depends on the__DM__
>>47145241
>A lawful good character can do anything he wants; he doesn't run on programming scripts.
They do in my settingbecause all the characters are literal robots.
>>47144309
>Real humans are motivated by fame, green, lust, protecting family, rage, or thirst for revenge.
What about people who travel to shitty places to help people?
>>47144470
>The old adage about nits making lice applies.
I don't know this adage and I thought I'd a pretty comprehensive grasp of English idioms. : /
>>47144253
> What's the most evil thing a lawful-good character is allowed to do?
Literally anything.
You are basing your question on the faulty assumption that deontology is necessarily the determining factor in alignment issues.
Why not virtue ethics? People can still commit evil acts out of good intents, that doesn't make them Evil with the big E letter.
Why not consequentialism? It's all good as long as ends justify the means, as long as your good outweighs your evil, right?
No, instead it's deontology and objective morality, and cosmic global powers with things like "everything with positive energy is Good, while everything with negative energy is Evil".
No, fuck you! I ain't havin' that shit.
The problem is that alignment is a meaningless vague superfluous bitch that acts as astraitjacket, and its existence serves only for the purpose of people arguing about it.
Arguing about alignment is like arguing about morality in general. "Hurr, what is Good, and what is Evil?" - just play the fucking game, for fuck's sake!
>>47144253
Probably genocide.
>>47144253
>allowed
Once again, doing it wrong. The alignments are descriptive, not prescriptive.
>>47144470
Unlike the other guy I do not respect your opinion and would never allow your brand of shit at my tables. Adventure league out .
>>47144967
That's retarded, you could still put them to work to pay off their crimes. Remember Les Mis? Why lock them up and throw away the key if they could pay for the rent?
>>47145088
Hello Inquisition, haven't seen you in a while
Genocide
If done to some 'evil' race to prevent them from being a problem in the future
>>47144278
Wha-? Who'd do something like that...
>>47144470
>. Also, as I have often noted, a paladin can freely dispatch prisoners of Evil alignment that have surrendered and renounced that alignment in favor of Lawful Good. They are then sent on to their reward before they can backslide.
>be enemy
>hear (true) stories that if you surrender and renounce your vows this paladin will just kill you anyway
>my side is losing and time is running out
>equip suicide belt and go ahead to surrender
Eat shit, liar and traitor, if I die anyway you're getting a face full of shrapnel. This is exactly how suicide bombers are made.
>>47144253
Enforce a bad contract caused by their own stupidity.
>>47145088
So it's a paladin's duty to kill all good creatures and spare all evil/neutral creatures?
Wouldn't it be god damn wonderful to have a quasi-medieval setting where things are actually like they were in the Middle Ages for once.
Instead we have the Pathfinder devs saying deities are evil if they do not support gay marriage. I still find it hard to believe they are that mentally challenged.
>>47148646
There's something so appealing about a severely deranged paladin who goes around killing good, god fearing individuals to give them their afterlife reward while waiting around for evil characters to find the light just so he can kill them as well.
I now have my next villain.
>>47148592
That is not evil though.
Not only is forcing away or exterminating orcs, goblins or whatever that are a persistent threat to your people completely morally justified, not doing so means you have failed in your duty to protect your people.
Anybody who thinks the lives of orcs or ogres are actually relevant when they threaten humans would be seen as crazy at best and a traitor at worst.
>>47148412
Yeah, no. The discussion is about D&D, as it is portrayed in the book. In the book, alignments are objective moral facts. To the point that they alter the physics of the universe.
Some people can literally see Evil like radiation. (It is even blocked by lead).
>>47147879
That's just neoliberalism. No one missions in Africa because they genuinely want to help; they simply want to egotistic rush of being a white savior among starving nignogs, even though they accomplish little and often make things worse.
>>47148692
Why am I not surprised? Pathfinder art looks Tumblr tier as it is, not surprised the writers would be.
Thank god this hobby can never really die. We can always fall back on old editions, and there's really nothing these people can do to stop it.
>>47144309
The reason people hate it is because they don't understand that it's a cosmic force and not a measure of your own morality.
Even though this has been stated 620837 times.
>>47148842
>No one
I think I just heard the bullshit machine ping
>>47144309
Your fedora is showing.
>>47144253
As a general rule, whatever they need to do to uphold their Oath. They may start to slide towards Evil but 5e paladins dont have to be LG, they just have to maintain their Oath and believe they're doing the right thing.
Of course, a truly Righteous person may have trouble with that last part but thats for the dice to decide.
>>47147879
Virtue-signalling, generally.
Most of them want to feel good about themselves. I actually went to Africa to do that, because I was trying to get into the panties of one girl in the group.
She suffered heat stroke on the first day and was airlifted out. I stuck it out three months before I went home and voted Republican.
I AM THE LAW
>>47144253
Put people into isocubes for extreme amounts of time over minor offenses.
>>47148610
If you're the kind of person who'd become a suicide bomber, you're not the kind of person who should be allowed to live.
Better to kill you now, than to deal with a snake in the grass.
>>47149779
Ah, really?
>I would attack any squadron blockading a port. Nothing could prevent me from dropping out of the clear blue sky on to a battleship with 400 kilos of explosives in the cockpit. Of course it is true that the pilot would be killed, but everything would blow up, and that's what counts.
>— Jules Vedrines, pre-1914.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_V%C3%A9drines , by the way.
Yer being willfully retarded. If the only options left are to either die while making no difference or die while making a difference, the latter is always the correct choice.
>>47145033
There is a reason why pious folks are described as God-fearing.
>>47149910
Not all pious folks though. Specific, fire and brimstone style, pious folks typically.
Fear is not inherently necessary to be a good person, though in the absence of other more obvious motivations it does suffice.
Murder an innocent (in a particularly painful manner) out of rage.
Alignments aren't straitjackets. You can perform out of alignment actions while remaining your alignment, provided your character is provoked in the right way. Your character should feel incredibly bad about it, obviously.
>>47144309
>One of my characters stabbed a female villager to death and cut off her head and held it in front of a peephole to convince her children to open the door so that he could slaughter them as well.
That's not a Lawful Good character.
No way.
>>47148842
Is that you Ayn Rand?
Even if you are not one of them, there are people who believe that doing good is the right thing and not only because they make themself feel good
>>47144967
Kant, pls go and stay go. Kierkegaard disproved your ideologies already
>>47151538
>intro to philosophy detected
>no other philosophy classes detected.
>>47144253
Wipe out an entire omniverse. But only if his patron deity tells him to.
>>47144253
Alright, Ill bite.
Alignment is relative.
Lawful simply means you follow a code.
LE Assassin 1's code.
>Kill only for money and only take the highest paying contract in times of dispute.
>Erase memory of all witnessess.
>Protect Fellow assassins unless it could compromise your identity or risk your own life.
>Live for the guild
LE Assassin 2's code
>Kill any immediate threats
>Take all contracts
>In times of dispute kill all targets
>Kill all witnessess
>If another assassin screws up, they deserve to live by the consequences and are responsible to save themselves
>Other assassins are threats, associate with them only out of necessity.
This means a LG character can do whatever he/she desires without risk of an alighnment shift provided it follows his/her code.
As far as Good/Evil it is whether they are acting for their own precieved greater good or against the greater good.
>>47144309
>>47148842
>>47148692
>Pathfinder devs saying deities are evil if they don't support gay marriage
Please tell me this isn't an actual thing
I thought deities had bigger things to worry about than that
>>47152045
iirc one or two of them said they have trouble seeing a deity who's anti-gay as Good. /pfg/ blowing things out of proportion as per the norm.
>>47152108
If anything, that sounds more like the devs simply having trouble detaching their personal beliefs from the game
>>47152177
Well yeah, just saying it's not quite as bad as made out to be.
>>47152207
Oh yeah, Im agreeing with you there desu.
I mean, it shouldn't matter how the devs see it so thats kinda bullshit but then PF was never really intended as a straight port of medieval europe Id guess since it also includes plenty of age of sail shit and the likes.
>>47144309
Actions dictate alignment. Not the other way around. And there's nothing wrong with it.
Also, tip harder faggot
>>47147879
To balance their moral scale or live like a libertarian hippybeing a missionary would be cool
>>47144309
>One of my characters stabbed a female villager to death and cut off her head and held it in front of a peephole to convince her children to open the door so that he could slaughter them as well
Fuck off your character is not lawful good by any stretch of the imagination.
Not to mention you did all that edgy bullshit just so that you'd get more hit die. That's Neutral evil as all shit.
>>47144507
>getting triggered
>>47148564
I really like that picture but seriously the fact it wasn't transparent really urks me. So I fixed it for you.
>>47153037
You forgot the O's, but good effort.
>>47153106
Shit I didn't see those Os thanks for pointing it out.
>>47153135
Noice mate
>>47152045
>>47152108
>>47152177
>game designer creates a new type of game
>acknowledges that it's possible to play a "good" character who slaughters the children of his enemies because it fits the morality of a warrior in a lawless, violent iron age setting.
>acknowledges that it's all just pretend, and what happens in the game won't hurt you any more than reading a violent story in a book
>fast forward a few decades
>game designers in a twist about imaginary deities not having mores compatible with American liberals in 2016
>except for all that wanton slaughter and looting because gotta get that XP amirite XD
>>47144253
I have no idea.
I had a party aid and abet an Alexander the Great type guy in crucifying several thousand aristocrats and merchants because they had torn down a church and an orphanage to build a casino/brothel earlier in the game.
I let the LGs in the party stay LG, there is a certain degree of flexibility in the system. Plus, a single unrighteous act does not necessarily define a character.
>>47154802
Sounds like your players did the right thing anyways.
>>47154877
I would say so.
Although, one member (a CN Bard) complained that the LGs didn't fall. I didn't pay him much heed, though, he complains about any morally ambiguous things they do.
Giving a suspected witch a quick death rather than leave her and know she will be tortured for hours, if not days.
>>47144309
Well I agree with you, anon.
>>47144253
Execute unjust laws.
>>47156086
> unjust
> laws
Do you even liberalism?
Nothing
>>47148593
Damnit shut up Meltzer. Your shitty Crisis got its stink all over the DCU and still hasn't completely faded two reboots on.
>>47144470
>An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is by no means anything but Lawful and Good. Prisoners guilty of murder or similar capital crimes can be executed without violating any precept of the alignment. Hanging is likely the usual method of such execution, although it might be beheading, strangulation, etc. A paladin is likely a figure that would be considered a fair judge of criminal conduct.
I'm not so sure about this. Just because a judge decrees it, doesn't make it right - would a paladin turn on the gas in Auschwitz?
>>47144253
Stand by and do nothing.
>>47144253
Killing evil things is a good act in D&D alignments, so, Lawful Goods can kill.
Would it be OOC for a CN Barbarian to cut out a reoccurring villain's eye before letting them go?
Would that be a blatantly evil act?
>>47157867
Unless he's lawful neutral, no.
>>47156167
>unjust
>laws
Do you even fascism?Here is your (You)
>>47144309
>motivation was metagaming
Here's your (You).
>>47158047
If the villain is a real prick, it sounds like something a barbarian would think of as chump change when he can just go for platinum and make the villain dead. If the villain is just a saturday morning bad guy, a beating within an inch of his life sounds good enough.
Why don't people seem to understand how alignment is supposed to work.
You are allowed to act outside what's common of your alignment whilst still being that alignment.
For example, IRL, I'm a super lawful good guy, however I've done bad things before, does that make me a bad person? No. I just did some bad things, I'm still lawful good.
Unless you're the paladin of a super anal fuckwit god, you don't need to worry about doing bad things every now and then.
This topic pisses me off a bit because in one of my current games my GM has threatened to take my character sheet away if I do ANYTHING evil, and as the GM he decides what evil is.
>>47144885
Wouldn't that technically be too unlawful for a Lawful Good character to do without a just reason?
Kill another in self defense or in the defense of the greater good.
>>47144253
Torture someone to death because the law requires it.
Litter
>>47147879
Some people are actually doing it out of the good in their hearts and a desire to be a better person, but don't worry a bunch of posters on 4chan will never admit that because of moral envy.
Cast a spell on an enemy that induces a large kidney stone.
>>47148842
>neoliberalism
Nigga, you dumb.
>>47146993
>>47144253
If we can agree the character is both lawful, and good, and that these are two of his personality traits, that he will act lawfully, and that he will not comit acts he believes to be evil or wrong, then it totally depends on the culture he was raised in, and his beliefs. A guard of the Crab-People species will use his lawful goodness to help the poor lowly crab people with smaller claws when they are too feeble to do their jobs, harvesting fruits and berries near the shore while he protects them from dangerous land dwellers. The lawful good second in command of the honallawu tribe will hunt and butcher the most defencless of the Crab-People's women and children, as their flesh is easiest to eat and has a healing factor the aid in the recovery of the ailing elderly chief of his tribe.
>>47148934
The other reason why people hate it is because it forces you to play certain characters a specific way, lest the DM decides to turn you into a commoner.
That and anytime it comes up, it creates stupid arguments.
>>47144309
>One of my characters stabbed a female villager to death and cut off her head and held it in front of a peephole to convince her children to open the door so that he could slaughter them as well.
I once made an assassin character with the intent of being edgy as fuck.
You reminded me of him, I like it.
But the shallow excuse to why you did so...
None.
>>47144470
Nah, you'd fall in the first session if you tried to pull that crap round my table.
"Lawful Good" means chivalry towards fallen foes unless they are of unquestionably evil nature.
That doesn't mean you can't force your foe to yield, then pummel them unconscious and hogtie them though if you fear a double-cross.
>>47161763
Yeah, there's something really strange about those other guys. Maybe unrelenting cynicism? Probably just spend too much time watching, playing or listening to *gritty realistic* stories or some such. Or they could just be edgy teenagers. Who knows?
>>47146993
Blueboard mate
>>47144253
Depends of the gm.
>>47144840
Only in shit systems.
