/btg/ is dead, long live /btg/!
Doing Your Duty to the Dragon Edition
Old Thread: >>47067820
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First Succession War
http://www.mediafire.com/download/dp9iiecoaz4c29k/E-CAT35235_BattleTech+First+Succession+War.pdf
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>/btg/ does a TRO:
http://builtforwar.blog(not spam)spot.com/
>How do I do this Against the Bot thing?
http://pastebin.com/pE2f7TR5
>Overview of the major factions?
http://bg.battletech.com/universe/great-houses/
http://bg.battletech.com/universe/the-clans/
http://bg.battletech.com/universe/other-powers/
>How do I find out what BattleMechs a faction has?
http://masterunitlist.info/
>Map of /btg/ players (WIP):
https://www.zeemaps.com/map?group=1116217&add=1
>BattleTech Introductory Info and PDFs
http://bg.battletech.com/?page_id=400
>Rookie guides
http://pastebin.com/HZvGKuGx
>Sarna.net - BattleTech Wiki
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Main_Page
>Megamek - computer version of BattleTech. Play with AI or other players
http://megamek.info/
Unit Designing Softwares
>SSW Mech Designer
http://www.solarisskunkwerks.com/
>MegaMek Lab
http://megameklab.sourceforge.net/
>BattleTech IRC
#battletech on irc.rizon.net
>PDF Folders
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/9q792hobnbpw3/Battletech
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/sdckg6j645z4j/Battletech
>>47102534
I have but one duty to the Dragon: Coring those fuckers. Never take Drac money, boys.
>>47102642
Damn dracs, only ones worse than liao
Tech wise how behind the Inner Sphere were the Periphery states in 3025?
I mean logistically I know they were really bass ackwards, but how different would a Stinger rolling off the lines on Canopus or a Thunderbolt on Taurus be from their Inner Sphere counterparts?
I just ask because the late 3rd Succession War era appears to be the closest the Periphery states ever got in military tech, at least on paper and due to the Inner Sphere blowing itself back three centuries.
>>47103000
Dead even. The Star League bulldozed all the local-tech mech factories way back in the Reunification War. The only ones the Periphery had in the 3rd War were the SL-built factories for SL designs.
Unless you count the Merlin, which was the first new mech designed in over a century. That was an Outworld's mech. If you count that, then the Periphery actually got a couple years head start on the 3020's Renaissance.
>>47103000
>but how different would a Stinger rolling off the lines on Canopus or a Thunderbolt on Taurus be from their Inner Sphere counterparts?
Pretty much not at all. The factories, not only for the mechs but for the other major components (with the exception of the Merlin) were all built at the same time from the same blueprints as the Inner Sphere factories for those designs. The only difference would probably be the brand names on the cockpit trim and what languages things are labeled in.
Even the Merlin uses commonly available, interchangeable parts that lots of IS stuff uses, 100% compatibility.
>>47102642
DEATH TO MERCENARIES
>>47102962
You wouldn't understand our SUPERIOR culture, you barbarian.
>>47103420
t. Space Nip that loves to massacre innocent civilians
>>47103476
Look at the face of your betters, cur!
Post your merc units, /btg/. I'm interested in seeing what kind of units you guys put together/play
>>47104349
Jenner
Wolverine
Dragon
AtlasDEATH TO MERCENAIRES! LONG LIVE THE COMBINE!
>>47104349
Black Knight, Marauder, Hunchback 4P and Crab 27b make up most of my current merc company in ATB.
Looted a couple of Griffin 2Ns too. But I really wanted to remove ammo dependence.
>>47104349
Why not. These guys started out as a light lance in a backwater garrison with dreams of glory. That was three years ago, gametime. Campaign in the maximum scrounge of the 2990's.
I've won and lost assaults and lostech, big tanks and little ones, whole bushels of bugs, and am currently broke as fuck in the middle of a civil war on what was supposed to be a cushy garrison/local force training gig.
>>47104872
That Rico Biden is a trooper
>>47105354
They all have done pretty cool stuff. Jerid takes more head hits than an NFL linebacker but has always come out of his concussion comas even on 11's and 12's to help his buddies out.
Grumman shot down an enemy Leopard preparing to land one time with nothing but the medium lasers on his Thrush. Unfortunately it wasn't enough speed or damage to make it explode at one level off the airstrip. Sure kept those bastards grounded though. Most of them have an interesting story for every world, some good some bad.
They also don't get kill credit for doing stuff like legging a mech, which is how most of the force has gained salvage throughout the campaigns.
>>47099679
Hah! I never noticed that piece of gloating before. It's outstanding.
>>47105884
>Unfortunately it wasn't enough speed or damage to make it explode at one level off the airstrip
But shooting a DropShip down without blowing it up is literally the dream payday for mercs. If you can pull that off, you're suddenly rich enough to buy a whole battalion of new mechs (assuming you don't keep the ship yourself, of course)
>>47106050
Wait, no, the pic isn't dated.
Funniest if it's from the Reunification War.
>>47106132
Except when it's loaded with an enemy lance of mechs that outweigh and outgun by several times the small scout lance you had out that way.
By the time we drove that force offworld, they'd repaired the landing gear they sheared off and were able to leave. Would've Zerged them if there wasn't a second leopard and a union in that group.
Which reminds me. Fighting landed spheroids is a nightmare. Even just getting under the guns for a couple of turns to take crippling potshots at their V's and lights as they were loading them up was brutal.
>>47101696
>It's a well known fact that battletech writers just don't like to deal with rebellion and insurrection
Various Beemers have literally said this at one point or another.
Which makes FWL Liberation Units rather pointless...
>>47106400
explains their lack of presence, aside from being part of the FWL
>>47106400
>Which makes FWL Liberation Units
Where are those detailed in the books? I've seen you reference them a few times now but never seen any references in canon.
>>47106439
FM:FWL and Brush Wars detail and reference them, respectively. Original House Marik sourcebook likely mentions them too.
So what was the best non-Mech Capellan Artillery in the Succession Wars?
>>47106400
I remember the Big Mac dealing with an insurrection once in Capellan territory at the time of the Inner Sphere's counter-attack against the Clans.
Also, wasn't the FedCom Civil War basically a large rebellion or insurrection?
>>47106516
Long Tom. Same as everyone else.
>>47106539
>Also, wasn't the FedCom Civil War basically a large rebellion or insurrection?
Only if you were a Katfag. Otherwise it was a civil war which is a slightly different matter in terms of semantics.
>>47106539
Also the constant mess with Rasalhague and Skye that existed until they were taken over by the bears or handed off to the RotS (which is really more because those two are powered by fiat than anything).
Are there any large sets of pilot portraits for MekHQ other than the "Ink effects" ones? I absolutely HATE those portraits; I remember there used to be a few packs of regular pictures (some celebrities, a lot of good art, pilots from the BT sourcebooks, etc), but I can't find any of those on the MegaMek Sourceforge page, nor in the MegaMek Downloads page.
>>47106552
I see.
I was kind of hoping they Capellans would have something creative given it said they made use of a lot of Artillery.
>>47106769
Nope. Exactly three types of artillery existed before Arrow IV nothing else. Hell, aside from arrow IV and cruise missiles, (which really should have existed before the 3060s, seriously) there hasn't been a single new artillery weapon introduced since 2200 in the battletech universe
Was House Amaris basically the Donald Trump of the first Star League?
>>47106992
I don't recall House Amaris being racist and transphobic.
>>47106881
I meant Artillery Units more or less.
>>47106992
Not really, they were more along the lines of holding a huge grudge for ~300 years.
>>47106992
Well he did MAKE THE RIMWORLDS GREAT AGAIN
Speaking of factions that did nothing wrong, what are the best sources for reading about the Rim Worlds Republic?
>>47107234
I think there was one rulebook or whatever about them?
>>47107051
>Buzzwords
Trump even went against the party line and said he didn't support the North Carolina bathroom security bill. Whatever transphobic means, he probably isn't.
Amaris was racist as fuck, if I recall correctly. He had a serious gene-fetishism, like all those 80s sci-fi dictators who were strawmen of Adolf Hitler. Trump isn't racist.
>>47106992
Nah. They really aren't quite like anything in real life
Also, on a side note, Stefan Amaris is officially the #1 master ruseman of all time, undisputed
>>47107125
And then they tore it all down. Seriously, what idiots they were.
>>47107234
>what are the best sources for reading about the Rim Worlds Republic?
Periphery 1e, Reunification War, Liberation of Terra I, FR:2765:P. ISP 3 has a little info, too, as does LoT 2
>>47106502
Thanks not-me
>>47106539
I don't have screencaps or anything, but iirc the answer boiled down to "BT isn't about all that, so we're not going to have it happen much or give it screen time if it does"
Given some of the foreshadowing in 3145/3150, I'm hoping this is an elaborate ruse.
>>47107419
The original Star League House Book probably has the most FASA info, more than Periphery 1e anyway.
>>47106539
It was also the plot of almost all the earliest Dark Age stuff. All those splinter factions were literally rebellions and rogue states, plus the caps fomenting rebellion on places like Liao.
Hey, Muninn
How much money have you got for btg TRO? Are you far from 5k?
>>47107962
We've received approx. 1500 in donations to date.
>>47107480
Right, I don't have that sourcebook, but it's good to know
>>47108110
How much more do you need?
>>47108263
Very few people do. That's why it's so nice we have a scanned copy in the thread folder.
>>47108268
If they've got a budget of 5K, and they've gotten 1.5K, then...
>>47108268
We need another $3,500 to reach our target. There's lots of info about budget, donating, etc. here:
http://builtforwar.blog (delete this) spot.com/2016/04/built-for-war-battletech-tro-by-fans_16.html
I am, of course, happy to answer any questions you may have.
>>47108511
As an aside, I'm waiting curiously to see if we'll ever get a female contributor. So far we have 30 dudes. Or X dudes plus Y females pretending to be dudes, I suppose.
Someone go shill the TRO on the general board of the OF again
Also take screencaps
Why does CGL loves "proverbial" so much?
Every recent book has one of those expressions.
That socks a proverbial dick
>>47108714
Honest question, why do you keep spamming this shit
>>47108714
Who the hell is Kamala, and why should I care that they're punching a poorly drawn Atlas?
>>47109041
>Implying that a taurian is in any way normal
>>47109058
>taurian
Isn't it the logo for the MWO company instead?
>>47109058
Show me on the doll where medron pryde touched you, anon
>>47109058
We are so weird, one guy though the PGI logo was a Taurian one.
>>47109058
Are you fucking retarded?
>>47109103
Yes, it's the PGI cow skull or whatevs
So I played with the Claw-Hammer variant of the Hammer and thought it was pretty fun.
It might just be cause I'm a long-time Nova Cat player and 7 medium lasers is a nice start.
Others who have used the Claw-Hammer, your thoughts of it?
>>47109058
That is the PGI logo. Where have you been?
>>47109058
Get outta here, mister paragraphs
We don't want your kind here
>>47109058
>taurian
>autism at its finest.
>>47109058
Which periphery state would be closest to old west mexico, in terms of "we hit this last big lick and hide out in X"?
I'm working up a history for a merc demi-company that's a bunch of Dispossessed desperadoes who hit their "one last big score" and reinvented themselves as mechwarrior mercs in the periphery
>>47109058
>being this dumb
>>47109058
come back when you stop being retarded
>>47108791
i would say stop biting the bait butKamala Khan is the new Ms. Marvel. Selling points for the character include being cute and also being a follower of islam
Can someone explain this chart to me?
>>47109103
>>47109139
>>47109158
>>47109165
>>47109200
>>47109228
>>47109361
>>47109599
>>47109612
>all this taurian samefagging
Just accept that your faction is shit
>>47108791
>>47109682
Marvel's latest attempt to destroy Western civilization
>>47109595
Honestly? Antallos.
>Giant poison desert that covers the whole planet
>A few people live in dome cities
>Full of pirates and bandits
>Mutated wildlife that wants to eat you
>Loads of tinpot dictators
>Hidden Star League treasure all over the place
>The one merc hall that doesn't care who you are or what you've done, you'll find a job that pays
>Bonus, solaris style fights
Of course if you're playing after the Ravens show up, then all that gets sucked away by the clan fun police.
Why hasn't the IS got Clan CASE yet?
>>47109684
It highlights the most efficient weapons by damage/ton heat curve and a couple other things.
>>47109738
Do any states make Clan Ferro?
>>47109595
If you've hit the Suns or CapCon, the outer parts of the taurian concordat are a good choice. They even speak spanish.
Plus they have mech factories with a disinclination to asking questions that'd be perfect for gearing up from ill-gotten gains.
>>47109778
>>47109738
Quick search of MegaMek turns up the Hauptmann T, Templar R, and Malice XV. Plus the Yurei LAM and a version of Yen-lo-Wang
So I know the Dracs like PPCs, Lyrans like Gauss, and Davions like ACs. What are the signature weapons of the FWL and Capellans?
>>47109843
>FWL
In 3025, PPC-LL refits.
After 3058, it's all LGR all 24/7, baby
>>47109843
>Capellans
They actually don't have a ton in the way of signature weapons, though they show a slight inclination towards PPCs and ERPPCs.
Later on, they develop something of a massive boner for TSM legs, but they don't have anything particular other than that and maybe a bit of TSEMP in the Dark Age
>>47109778
The Combine has it on the Cizin and SM2, both made at Nova Cat factories that were captured intact.
Lyrans have it on the Jaguar, which is described as being built with assistance from Wolf-in-Exile, so not sure if they actually make clan ferro themselves.
Clan Republic of the Sphere has it, of course, though they only use it on the Jackalope for some reason. Ferro-Lam on one version of the Malice, imported from the SharkFoxes?
>>47109898
Plasma rifle was their signature weapon.
>>47109912
Did I not mention that?
Clearly I'm drunker than I thought
>>47109898
They really like big-bore ACs and Gauss. A while back I did some random unit generation and the Caps had a couple fewer Gauss than the Lyrans, and almost twice as much as anyone else (Davions were next, Dracs used HPPCs about as often as the Davions, and the FWL had like one headcapper in a company)
>>47110008
It's kinda interesting how their AC/20 love emerged pretty much at the same time as their gaussboner, design-wise
A question for /btg/: How fast do you think mediums should be?
5/8 and 6/9 XL mechs are best off as heavies unless they jump, and SFE mechs have virtually no tonnage available when moving 6/9 or 7/11.
Even a 7/11 40 tonner with an LFE or a 6/9 50 tonner with one don't have much space available.
And yet, so many medium mechs go slower than any of these
>>47110497
The way you use slow mediums/lights is either in large cheap groups (panther) or in a lance of bigger bruisers with the same movement profile. Tends to work out pretty well that way.
>>47110534
Yeah but then I could just bring another big bruiser. Why use a mech that's going too slow (or too fast - see the Grand Titan et al)
>>47110497
Mediums are good for 5/8/5 and 5/8/8. 6/9/6 or 6/9/0 fat lights are fun, too. 4/6/4 troopers are good up to the jihad, and 8/12 XL fat lights can be fun in their very own retarded way
>>47110561
Sometimes it's better not to have all your eggs in one basket.
>>47110561
>Yeah but then I could just bring another big bruiser
Gauss. Rifles.
>>47110569
>8/12 XL fat lights can be fun in their very own retarded way
But they aren't really retarded when you've got an XL.
>>47110497
>A question for /btg/: How fast do you think mediums should be?
It doesn't generally matter, because Mechs under 55 tons aren't viable combatants on the modern (post-Jihad) battlefield anyway, and 55 tonners are really viable only as pocket heavies or if they abuse their jump jet tonnage advantage.
A Mech's first and most important job is to remain operational, and there's too much stuff that can kill a Mech 50 tons or less too quickly in non-gimped (pre-Jihad) Battletech play. They simply can't mount the armor tonnage to soak the fire that WILL hit, and speed is not a viable defense unless you're abusing IJJs, in which case 55 tons is objectively superior to all lighter tonnages.
>>47110497
>>47110561
Fast heavies mean XLs, which give up a lot of durability compared to 5/8 and 6/9 mediums. Plus, it's easier to focus fire on a few heavies versus mediums. Additionally, though it matters very little to theorycrafters like yourself, XLFE heavies COST. Big time. This is an extremely important design consideration for mercs and smaller, broker states, but it's also important to keep in mind for the big boys
>>47110660
>non-gimped (pre-Jihad) Battletech play
>75% of battletech's history is gimped rather than the last 20 being overpowered
Are you smoking crack?
That was a lot of sudden death overtime. Here, I haven't seen this in a long time, and while it's an older meme, it still checks out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LM9_wf5akDw
>>47110660
You are just adorable.
I'd love to cut your force apart with good mediums some day.
>>47110669
But mediums that move 5/8 or 6/9 without an XL don't have enough tonnage to do anything.
50 tonner moving 6/9 has 13 tons left WITH Endo and FF (max efficient).
LFE bumps it up to 17.5
>>47110734
>tfw Hitler is right
Gas the Clans space war now
>>47110802
>But mediums that move 5/8 or 6/9 without an XL don't have enough tonnage to do anything.
Dude what.
>>47109843
The Davions also like swapping out AC/5s for lasers or PPCs, and shift most of their anti-infantry firepower onto their vees in exchange for more anti-'Mech weapons. They actually have a bigger hard-on for ERLLs and LLs than most autocannon until FanPro/Catalyst took over. They do love LACs and all three of the class-10s, but they don't really like the class-20s (with limited exceptions) or class-twos (not that you can blame them.) They're also fond of the gauss rifle.
>>47110802
How exactly do you define "enough tonnage to do anything"?
>>47110842
13 tons. You might as well take a light that moves faster at that point.
Mediums are just a shitty compromise between speed and toughness and firepower.
A light can do speed and firepower, a cav heavy can do speed and more firepower, a normal heavy can do firepower and toughness.
Meanwhile you can't even fit two PPCs on a medium unless you use an XL, in which case, upgrade to heavy.
>>47106257
It's from the old Star League book, dated 3024. The full pic shows a C* history buff cosplaying in a Star League Navy dress uniform with a giant portrait of Miss Ningpo.
>>47110874
I'm curious, boy. What are your top five preferred mech designs?
>>47110874
>you can't even fit two PPCs on a medium unless you use an XL, in which case, upgrade to heavy.
Or you mount a pair of snubbies on it instead of being a moron. You can get a 6/9 50-tonner with enough armor to tank a gauss hit to any location, 10 doubles, and no other weight-saving tech whatsoever. Throw endo on it and you can do a pair of regular PPCs. If you go full retard on the weight-saving tech (ES, FF, an LFE) you can make it a 6/9/6 with a pair of snubbies and a targ-comp, max efficient armor, and 22 sinks.
>>47110874
>Meanwhile you can't even fit two PPCs on a medium unless you use an XL, in which case, upgrade to heavy.
You've obviously never driven a BJ-3.
>>47110976
>You've obviously never driven a BJ-3
Technically, he WAS talking about 5/8 mediums, though the 4/6 medium is severely underrated. He is an idiot, but let's be precise about it
>>47110874
How much do you rove grorious Draconis Combine?
>>47111062
He's complaining about slow lights too though.
If anything, he's sounding more like a Lyran social general.
>>47111098
Really, he sounds like someone who's been playing for about three to six years and hasn't gotten over the 2 maps in the boxed set yet. God knows I went through that phase for a while. Fortunately for all of us, that was ~1998 for me.
>>47111193
>God knows I went through that phase for a while. Fortunately for all of us, that was ~1998 for me
I know what you mean. Mine was about SGLRM carriers and airstrikes and ALL TANKS ALL THE TIME and two years later, but I remember what it was like. This guy honestly reminds me of somebody RPing a stone cold old-school dracs or lyran. Maybe this guy is the bastard child of a dracs samurai and a Social General, but man, I really get the feeling that this whole spiel is 80% theory, 20% megamek
>>47110937
I'll tell you, boy.
Awesome
Stormcrow
Spider
Blitzkrieg
King Crab
>>47110971
Oh boy one whole gauss hit
If you're moving 6/9 and using a SFE, you have very little tonnage left. You have to use endo and ff to even get to max efficient armor and 13 tons of payload. You're not really going fast enough to survive and your payload is light enough that you might as well just accept a faster XL light. Or a faster XL medium.
Also I specifically excepted mechs that save several tons on JJ, due to the weight jump at 60. So good job confirming that.
>>47111002
If you want to use a 4/6 mech, get bigger. A 4/6 medium is too slow to live.
Look, in Battletech, intermediate solutions to armor/speed just don't cut it. Well, maybe if you're playing in 3025...
>>47111062
I happen to agree with them on this particular issue, but I don't care about them one way or another.
>>47111193
I consider 30x30 to be the absolute minimum. I prefer 50x50 for 4-8 mechs per side and am happy to go larger.
>>47111411
It's a whooooole lot of megamek vs good players.
Continuing the Invasion-era Drac forces discussion: what would be an interesting looted Clan mech for such a Drac force to have in their ranks?
>>47110802
>But mediums that move 5/8 or 6/9 without an XL don't have enough tonnage to do anything.
WVR-6M
GRF-1N
STY-3C
I could go on. 5/8 is very workable on Mediums, but as you get to 6/9+ (especially 7/11 or 8/12) that the engine mass starts taking up way too much.
>>47111765
>If you're moving 6/9 and using a SFE, you have very little tonnage left.
12 tons on a 50-tonner with an Endo chassis and ~95% of max armour. One LL, 2 MLs, and two SRM-4s with 1 ton of ammo and CASE. Upgrade to Ferro and you can fit a Guardian ECM at ~90% of max armour. Both for under 1,250 BV and 4.85 million C-Bills.
That's a pretty decent payload vs mass vs cost result.
>>47112269
Warhawk Prime. PPCs up the wazoo.
Difficult to maintain for them early on, would actually opt for a Dire Wolf or Nova really, you can use standard structure or armour and probably get away with an IS XL Engine if you really have to.
>>47110734
>I'm buying a 40k starter army
>>47112513
>5/8 is very workable on Mediums
No shit, the whole point is that you need to go, at a minimum, 6/9 to be efficient UNLESS you use JJ with a SFE.
>>47112513
>One LL, 2 MLs, and two SRM-4s with 1 ton of ammo and CASE. Upgrade to Ferro and you can fit a Guardian ECM at ~90% of max armour. Both for under 1,250 BV and 4.85 million C-Bills.
Or I could take something with a whole truckload more firepower and armor and have a very good chance of taking down both for 2500 BV. Optionally, something faster and just play tag.
Some other Anon was asking about Clan Invasion omnis amongst the Clans. I'm wondering which one Hells Horses was using the most of the original 16?
>>47112979
> 2500 BV
For the record, the MadCat C is precisely that much without a clan pilot. I think those mediums would stand a very good chance of beating it.
Actual canon designs that are like that custom one evade my memory however.
>>47113653
Savage Coyote J
Even without a clan pilot it will rip those two little shit apart. And there are plenty of other things around there that would. Night Gyr D is another that springs to mind.
>>47113653
>Actual canon designs that are like that custom one evade my memory however.
Cronus and Starslayer are the two closest I could find, both 5/8/5 though. You could do a modest Pixie conversion or something.
i feel really dumb for asking, but as dracs, what is a good reinforcement lance? ideally heavies. need to scare my ATB group a bit by giving them a fixed time limit to complete missions before backup arrives... but i want to keep it "within rules" so deploy in twelve minus walking speed turns.
>>47113835
Gonna have to give us a bit more info here amigo
What year, for starters
>>47113895
technically 3048, but using 3050 RAT's as we plan to move into the clan invasion.
pic semi related, what i could find under heavy that moved "fast" the lancelot being the fastest.
(unless theres something not in the rats that would work well?)
i say this is atb, but its me (gm) vs players using atb rules and stuff.
i do like that lancelot though.
trying to play ATB with semi experienced players always remines me how little i knwo of bt lore.
>>47113635
They invented the Hellbringer and Nova.
Feuded with the Bears a lot too so probably Fire Moths, Vipers, Mad Dogs and Executioners.
>>47113956
The two Osts, the Dragon and the Grand Dragon for the lance leader (the reinforcements are Kuritans, right?) would be nice for beating them up at all ranges.
>>47114084
yeah reinforcements are kuritans.
I had also thought about trying to find a lance? squad? of helis to throw at them, do the kuritans have any solid heavies? everything Vtol the rats has given to me as been like, SRM2, AC2 garbage.
>>47113956
Warhammer 6K
Catapult K3
Grand Dragon 5K
Dragon 1G
Drac as hell, mix of stuff.
>>47112269
Huntsman or Shadow Cat would be one I would prefer.
>>47114113
cat k3 is only 4/6?
so is the warhammer 6k.
>>47114246
You didn't say anything about speed in >>47113835
>>47114321
blame alcohol, woreded it badly.
this is supposed to be a fast and hard hitting lance, a sorta . i dont know, reaction lance?
>>47114350
The thing you'd have as a mobile reserve, you mean?
>>47113790
Yeah thats the problem I was running into. 6/9 SFE with a decent loadout just doesnt quite exist because once XLs came out, just about everything was given an XL. Once that happens mediums go the route of fat lights or strapping as much GUN on as possible.
>>47113738
>All of that
>Gyr D
>2889 BV
Good job goal post mover, keep upping the BV. A 3/5/5 Clan pulseboat assault doesn't strike me as all that impressive against 2 6/9 nearly introtech mechs that just need to keep alpha striking and kicking the damn thing into submission. The anon that posted the build said nearly 1250BV, I went and checked, its 1236(that being said, the ecm suite bumps it up to 1290 so I dunno what hes smoking).
But all of this is pointless because everyone knows clans were a mistake and are patently anti-fun.
>>47114390
My bad, I forgot I have altered BV calcs on in MegaMek. Nevertheless, there are plenty of mechs that are around 2500 that would kick the shit out of a pair of those two.
And a 3/5/5 Clan assault would be great for tearing those two apart.
>clans were a mistake and are patently anti-fun
>muh introtech
>muh mediums
>muh kicking
manbaby grog please let the adults talk
>>47114449
>implying my favorite eras aren't jihad and darkage
>this clanner scum doesn't partake in manly physical combat
That is why I said I wasn't impressed. CLPLs are the most broken shit I have ever seen, on top of the inherent advantages of clantech.
Frankly I think I could 1v1 that mech with an Uziel-8S in a simple DPS race.
>>47114350
all Dragons or Grand Dragons
>>47110894
Alright, so maybe it's repurposed art that got cut from another book, but still: why pose in Star League uniform next to a poster from 3024? Is he stationed with the Velites, is this the best image of "peace in the galaxy" he could find, does he want to re-enact the Reunification War, or what.
>>47109595
Regiments in the Magistracy and Concordat started that way. Also in the Free Worlds League. Really, any state bordering the one you're leaving should do fine.
>getting back into BT
>find my old fansite
http://giovetti.com/paladinstorm/
what... was I thinking?
>>47114634
My guess is that the man's a giant fanboy of the Star League in general and likes to dress up in its kit. The Ju-Lei photo is probably just something to tie the book to the "present" of 3024.
Trying to find production info for early Clan mechs in the Dark age. Specifically, info on the Nova, Black Lanner, Shadow Cat, and Ebon Jaguar. MUL lists them all as available during Early Republic, but I have no clue what sites are producing them.
Speaking of the Star League:
>officer doesn't get a toy with his burger
>pays back by killing a shitload of people
Apparently even in the days of glorious past nutters could slip in through the gaps.
>>47114818
Older, but related
>>47114848
Precisely what I was thinking about when I read that bit.
Also, look at this glorious motherfucker. No wonder that C* historian loves to dress up in Star League uniforms.
>>47114736
Well sure, but it's not like the artists and editors were that different from us in /BTG/. They decided to make the pic a joke by putting that message to the Velites on there, and I'm trying to work out which joke it is - the Velites being Je-Lei fanboys, or Ju-Lei gloating over trouncing them in battle.
>>47114878
Gas the Star League fatshaming war now
>>47114977
>it's not like the artists and editors were that different from us in /BTG/
Don't tell them that, or into the ban you go
>>47110802
>50 tonner moving 6/9 has 13 tons left WITH Endo and FF (max efficient).
You tried HFF (max efficient)? Gets you the magic 14 for twin normal PPCs, if for some reason snubbies offend you. And you still have 6 crits left over.
What's the most stereotypically possible FWL medium mech?
>>47115188
Wolverine-6M?
>>47115188
Trenchbucket?
>Wolverine-6M?
This too.
>>47115205
Surely you mean the 7M
If it dropped the MASC for another sink and armor or CASE it would actually be pretty damn good. As it is it's a bit too expensive.
>>47115234
I never think of the Trebuchet for some reason, despite ht FWL having all three factories for it.
>>47115274
It was the first thing that came to mind for me, but even so I can see what you mean. It's never had that "iconic house mech" thing played up.
>>47115563
I should use the Trebuchet more. I think of it as Regulan-specific, but it really isn't.
>>47114818
>all dem divisions
The scale of the SLDF still boggles my mind
>>47115770
Try not to think about how much bigger than that it should be, based on real life military sizes
>>47114878
>fat as hell
>rich nation
>incompetent military
>corrupt arms contractors
>"german and celtic heritage"
shit, the Lyrans are Space America.
>>47115805
eurocuck detected
Can someone tell me what the revised values for RE Lasers are?
>>47115805
>>incompetent military
Wouldn't that make it europe?
>>47115783
Well, that's nothing new. I mean there are planets with hundreds of millions, if not billions of people, that probably don't rate more than a few regiments.
To put that into perspective, India (pop. 1 billion and change) has close to 40 divisions, China had, IIRC, 120 divisions in the 1980s and about 50 nowadays (plus 40 brigades). Both of these are without conscription, unlike in the Lyran Commonwealth for example. The Sovs, pop. 300 millionish, had consciption and they had 200 divisions in the 1980s.
>Capellans btfo
Reminder that the Caps were the first to suspend the Ares Convention, and can't handle the response.
>>47115935
>>47115927
Yeah to be honest Lyran conscription makes no sense since we don't see invaders being hassled by five fronts of multiple shock armies each supported by 10k artillery pieces immediately upon landing.
>>47115935
>Cappie pinko
my. fucking. sides.
Is that in the 1st Succession War book?
>>47115935
>Reminder that the Caps were the first to suspend the Ares Convention
They were also behind its creation.
>>47116027
Liao cunning and treachery knows no bounds.
>>47116016
Yep. The Caps send a delegation after surrounding Chesterton, and that's the response.
>>47116027
What, you want a prize? First in, first out doesn't exactly ring as a great motto.
>>47114694
Could be worse. You could find all your old posts on PRI
>>47115935
It's a fun book.
Speaking of the Star League, for all the big-ups the SLDF gets for being the best-oiled fightin' machine in history, they still had to make do with no staff at the regimental level. At least the lowest level I saw was at the brigade level.
Running one of those regiments (and the Successor State regiments as well) must be like running a regiment in the Napoleonic era. For the record, a French infantry regiment's headquarters consisted of the OC, his adjutant, a paymaster, a drum major, the eagle bearer and his assistants, plus a number of people like a tailor and shoemaker plus the musicians.
>>47115957
>be Terran
>grow up on the reign of Word of Blake
>friends join the Militia or Protectorate Militia
>join up too, assigned to stay on Terra
>hear about massive battles taking place throughout the Inner Sphere for years
>finally learn the Great Houses and Clans are heading towards Terra
>like before the Houses rape and pillage their way across the worlds of the Terran core
>finally the day comes and the invader's fleet enters the Sol system
>Clanners, Great Houses, and riffraff and mercs belonging to a nobody named Stone
>come to take the cradle of humanity away
>come to deprive Terrans of their freedom once more
Being a Terran is suffering. It would be hard to see the Republic as anything but an occupational government.
You're in the last stand of Terran forces against the barbaric House and Coalition forces comes to pillage your homeworld.
What song is playing?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt2g5hoUzHI
>>47116090
One bit that rings hollow is Herb's self insert moaning about how destructive the war was, when he loves him some nuclear exchanges.
>>47116153
https://youtu.be/a_OEJ0wqt2g
Tbh this song goes with everything for me. No idea why.
>>47116084
>>47114694
Most of my youthful indescretions are on dead BBSs and listservs, thank God.
GAS THE CLANS
SPACE WAR NOW
You know what mildly grinds my gears about 1sw? We get WarShip fleet numbers, but we get precisely no info on their composition, as to which fleets have X number of what classes and such.
It's annoying, because I'd like to run some 1st succession war naval games and that info is just a little important
>have a long-anticipated game scheduled at the LGS tonight
>girl messaged me back on tinder asking me to come over tonight and touch her butt
/btg/, bros before hoes?
>>47116360
>we get precisely no info on their composition, as to which fleets have X number of what classes and such.
There's actually a good bit of info in the 2750 House books; they discuss the fleets of each House and (to a degree) how many ships survived the Amaris Coup in each. There's also some stuff in 3075 and 3058 that mentions ship numbers after the final Battle of Terra
>>47116400
Depends on what you've been longer without, and how many people it'll affect.
>>47116400
Why not do both? How long will touching butts take?
>>47116400
Move the booty warrior appointment up, as much as you can, then see if the boys would be willing to move battletech back a little. If you're lucky, you might get both fit in
>>47116400
Whichever one you pick, remember it's bad form to bitch about what you could have been doing the entire time.Pussy. Battletech will still be there in the morning, and she never gets jealous...
>>47116400
Try to hold the butt. Be its bandit king.
>>47116459
>How long will touching butts take?
I don't why I pictured Wesley Crush asking this.
>>47116400
Hold her butte, then leg it for your game. It can be done, assuming you have any skill whatsoever at eating pussy and aren't one of those people who NEEDs to sleep afterwards
>>47116400
>using Tinder
degenerate
>>47116400
Try this: >>47116488, and remind your Battletech group that you're putting off gaming to get laid. You should still *try* to make the game, even if you get there late...but if they can't understand or forgive you for being late for THAT reason, they'll never understand or forgive any other reason and they aren't people you want to be around anyway.
Hey NEA, I was actually about to ask if you were around.
A few months back you did a cool organization of the WoB fleet into divisions and squadrons.
I was wondering if you'd be interested in doing the same with ComStar's, if you can spare the time.
>>47116899
Holy crap, *that's* the full list of C* Naval Assets? No wonder they sucked in Case WHITE (aside from all the other reasons, obviously).
Yeah, I can work on that. It'll take a little bit; I have to mow the lawn since it's not raining for the first time in a fucking week and a half.
>>47116400
Man, I'm glad that I'm married and don't have to deal with this crap
>>47116990
There's not much need to do a lot of organising, though. >>47116899 doesn't seem to realise that the ComStar Fleet is broken down into squadrons in FM: C* already.
>>47117145
Those are not especially well put-together squadrons, though, and there's clearly no underlying doctrine. They're more or less throwing ships into a squadron without regard for how they'll move and fight together, or how to support each other.
The one smart thing done here is to attach Faslanes to squadrons for refit; that way a WarShip can be refitting or getting maintenance and still travel with the rest of the squadron.
Like the anon at >>47116360 I'm looking at running a campaign where the players are SLDF gunslingers stationed in the Draconis Combine, and I'm thinking which style would be better for playing out duels, regular old BT rules or the Solaris ones. Anyone played something similar?
>>47117145
Don't be a faggot, where do you think I got the list of ships from to begin with? I'm just asking for NEA's take on organization.
FSW is out? Cool.
Campaign Companion when?
>>47117463
Next decade, assuming CGL survives that long.
has anyone written a script that will automatically generate a starting unit for Against the Bot campaigns yet?
>>47116899
OK, it was actually easier than I thought, once I thought about it for a few minutes.
Plus, it started raining while I was gassing up the mower.
Let me know if anything's confusing or you have questions.
>>47117926
Thanks man. I do appreciate the preface explaining everything, it's informative and pretty much eliminates confusion on why the ships are where they are.
Someday I'll have to go full Blakist and persuade you to do one for a theoretical combined WoB/ComStar fleet. My group's been playing with an AU where the ComStar schism never took off, so there's a True Believer ComStar in 3067 with a significantly larger military.
>>47117926
>Two SovSoys together actually provide a credible threat to a single modern WarShip (Fox, Zec, Castrum)
>Two SovSoys
>Castrum
OK, I admit. I larfed. SovSoys aren't that bad, are they?
>>47117315
Definitely Solaris, the granularity is a lot of fun at that scale.
>>47118136
Yeah, I was thinking about that too. Time to brush up on the Solaris rules.
>>47118078
>OK, I admit. I larfed. SovSoys aren't that bad, are they?
They are, anon. They are. Literally shit-tier speed, armour, and firepower. 2/3 speed, firepower not significantly better than an Essex (at 2/3rds the mass or so), armour about as good as the Whirlwind (300 kT lighter).
It's just as well the SLN built 400 of the fuckers, you need to pile them on even to match the crap the House fleets were made of.
>>47118078
They're *terrible*. I've largely made my peace with SLDF ships spending large fractions of their mass on tonnage, but SovSoys are on a whole different level. They drop a full quarter of their mass on cargo - IIRC, the next highest mass-fraction on cargo in the SLDF is 18%. Add that 7% back in to the SovSoy, and that's 58 THOUSAND tons for a additional armament, armor, and gas (the SovSoy is also very low-fuel).
I can understand the rationale for making a thin-skinned ship that concentrates on long/extreme-range fire. That's how the SovSoy is fluffed...but it's also terrible at actually doing it. AFAIK, there is no other unit in BattleTech that has such a ludicrous discrepancy between the capabilities in the fluff and the actual stats. It has very few weapon bays, and only the NAC/20 broadside bays are meaningfully bracketable. Somewhere along the line somebody thought there was fluff stating the SovSoy was supposed to have 24/28/40-something additional NL-45s. That would ACTUALLY make it a credible long-range combatant.
As it stands now, though, it does nothing particularly well except haul cargo and a half-dozen DropShips around. The "Castrum" statement may be exaggerating...but it's no joke that a single Avalon, massing 40k-tons less than a single SovSoy can reliably kill two and severely damage a third SovSoy...simultaneously**
**Note: This involves not doing the "every DropShip is a Vengeance ASF carrier" bullshit. Avalon got 4 DropShips, each SovSoy got 2 each.
Speaking of warships, anyone have those drawings whatshisface did? I think he did a McKenna and some others.
>>47118310
>character limit
I WILL say that under the SLDF's naval doctrine, the SovSoys actually DID produce meaningful results.
When you throw a Warship division made up of a Texax, 2 Black Lions, and a Luxor into somebody's face, they'll tend to not pay attention to the squadron of 8 SovSoys sitting back at the edge of Long Range. In THAT scenario, the SovSoys can have time and space to throw their spitballs downrange, because the OPFOR is highly unlikely to have enough WarShips to deal with both groups simultaneously.
So SovSoys work just fine from a position of ludicrous numerical superiority, and they do bring the advantage of a fair number of Drop Collars that ACTUALLY should mount a lot of ASF carriers (because the SovSoys want to stay far away from the real fight), which then frees up the Drop Collars on *real* WarShips to carry assault craft for ECM screening.
But in the "modern" era where you're not likely to see more than 5 WarShips per side in a fight, and more commonly 1-2 per side? Yeah, they're complete trash.
>>47118310
The SovSoy is the best armed merchantman around, but it's not so much of a cruiser. I mean, if it's fluff was about it being designed to singlehandedly transport and support a mech regiment, it would make sense. But it really is just a terribly designed ship
>>47118347
Right here, sibkin. Starting with the Black Lion.
>>47118310
Every time I think about going back and just retconning the lot of the SLDF ships into something approaching quality, I remember that it's a ton of work for no actual gain. A pity, I actually like how the SovSoy looks too.
I'd also up the drop collar numbers on a lot of ships now that I think about it. You're already blowing billions, why not give the ship 4+ DS for support?
>>47118347
>>47118422
>>47118473
>>47118422
>>47118473
>>47118492
Thanks trothkin. How many did he do? Did he say if he would do more? I really like his take on them.
>>47118552
Those are the only ones I have saved, and I think I got them all.
>>47118552
They're commissions, and those are the only ones he got from Shimmy, IIRC. Have the other two the guy commissioned, starting with the Nightlord.
>>47118638
Sorry, these are from Plog, if you couldn't tell.
>>47118412
>>47118310
>>47118251
Hoenstly the SovSoy has always felt more like a Q-ship that somehow found its way into the line than a "real" warship. Or like the Brits decided to put a flight deck on top of one of their Fast Battleships and had to downrate the engines, but kept the front couple of turrets because "fuck it"
>>47118412
Hey NEA, as the naval expert, have you thought about a way to nerf ASFs so that they no longer dominate aerospace?
I've got a few ideas but I'm not a rules expert, so I'd like to hear anything you've got first
>>47118638
>>47118652
Still pretty cool. Thanks man.
Ye gods, this has to be one of more hilarious regiments in BT. Imagine a lineup of 'Mechs where every single giant robot looks like one of those JSDF Cobras with anime girls as nose art.
>>47118849
The memes transcend time and space.
>>47118849
So the Dracs have anime? Somehow I thought it would be too degenerate for their culture.
>there's an in-universe anime or ten in the Teddy K era that features a female MechWarrior, new to the DCMS, late for practice and running to the hanger with a piece of toast in her mouth
>>47118924
Apparently in the Star League they had them, and in the 3050s there was the great loosening of Takashi's orders under Teddy C3's Coordinatorship. In one of the Camacho's Caballeros books they describe what appears to be an idol band (the Purple Tailfeathers, out of Luthien) on a holo-jukebox.
There is commentary that "old Takashi must have been spinning in his grave".
>>47118712
Option 1: Take away the ability of Squadrons to group their weapons like an ASF bay. They still roll to-hit as a bay, but then also roll on the missile chart as appropriate for the number of fighters still active (eg, the 6 column for a full Squadron, the 5 column if 1 is dead, etc) and figure the damage from there. An extra step and slows the game down, which runs counter to what the Squadron rules try to do. Damage will also still be pretty high.
Option 2: Set a higher minimum damage threshold to do damage to WarShip armour. I would say a minimum of 10 damage to do 1 WS armour damage point, rounding 15 and below down to 1. And apply that as a *per weapon* rule rather than a per bay rule. At the moment the grouping of weapons into bays and shit allows a Squadron with 1 ML in a given arc to do 3 Capital damage, what the actual fuck. This literally means that an ASF designed to spam MLs with 6 in the Nose and 6 in each Wing would be doing 36 damage as a Squadron if both the Nose and a Wing are on target and they hit. At the cost of 18 tons. For WarShips to hit that hard they need thousands of tons worth of weapons. What the literal fuck. If it was a minimum of 10 damage from a single weapon to damage a WarShip a Squadron of Eisensturms would drop from their bullshit 29 damage to a much more sane 2 damage.
Also, do something about the to-hit penalties against Fighters. +5 (+3 with NLs in AAA mode) makes them an incredible pain in the ass to hit. And then if you do hit them, they've got armour up the wazoo.
Of course, this all assumes you're staying in a pure-canon environment. If you move outside that WarShips are still kinda boned but when sticking to canon ASFs will just mercilessly dick over WarShips.
>>47119061
I agree with basically all of this. I personally prefer Option 2. I look at it like a Hellcat strafing the IJN Yamato. It doesn't matter a damn HOW many .50 BMG rounds you hit it with...the armor plate is never, ever, going to get more than scratched. Bring a bigger gun (or a torpedo/dive bomber) or go home.
I would also add that I'm OK with the penalty to hit against fighters...I'd just say that any - ANY - Capital-scale weapon** hits an ASF kills the fighter. Period. Any weapon. Any fighter. Get hit with a bay of 3 NACs? Roll on the 3 cluster table, and remove the resultant number of fighters from the squadron. Note that this would suddenly make firing Barracudas actually matter.
**Sub-caps deal damage as normal.
>>47119214
>**Sub-caps deal damage as normal.
There are Sub-Caps that hit harder than Barracudas and even NLs though.
>>47118849
Oh god no, I must resist the urge of painting this regiment
>DAI MAXBUSTER
I can't fight it /tg/! I can't fight it!
>>47116324
BETTER DEAD THAN CLAN'D
>>47114818
>The Blue Demon division
>>47119061
>>47119214
I like option 2 quite a bit, but I'm not so sure about NEA's instakill. Maybe automatic crits when a capital weapon hits a fighter instead?
For what it's worth, here's what I came up with: Fighters can fly in one of two formations, loose or tight. In loose formation, each fighter's weapons hit separately, and hits on the squadron are applied to a random fighter each time, like BA. In tight formation, squadrons work roughly like they do now, HOWEVER, the penalty to hit the squadron is cut down to -2(nothing for AAA NLs). So fighters have the choice between concentrating firepower but being easy targets, and dispersed but safe.
So how is the Viking as a unit?
>>47119061
>>47119214
I'm no warship expert but maybe they could do as you say, but make a certain type of sub-capital missile mountable on aerospace fighters (if one isn't already), and bring back torpedo bombers in space.
>>47118849
>>47118924
>>47118966
Makes you wonder about the types of animated films that might exist in each Successor State.
>>47120020
has many LRMs, will bombard shit
>>47120035
there's ASF-mounted missiles in TW and TacOps, IIRC.
>>47120020
It's basically a better Longbow, but with MACHINEGUN KNEES
>>47120094
>Wallaby's
kek
>>47120035
ASFs can carry Arrow IV missiles and Alamo nukes as external ordinance already
>>47119833
Instakill would help a lot and make some degree of sense. As it is Squadrons can tank a surprising amount of damage, even if they aren't the ridiculous brickfighters of later TRs.
The to-hit mod could work but be prepared for everyone to immediately switch to squadrons of Eisensturms (or local equivalent) and flying tight since they can tank 60-point capital bays.
I'd actually combine 1 and 2, thinking on it further. Reducing an Eisensturm Squadron from 29 damage to 4-12 depending on their Cluster roll seems much more palatable.
There are still a lot of ships that they can chew through but at least you won't run into the ridiculousness of 6 Eisensturms doing enough damage to kill an Agamemnon in 5 turns the way they can now.
Oh, and the Agamemnon will probably generate just enough damage to kill an Eisensturm Squadron over those 5 turns too.
I'M AN ASF, SUCK MY DIIIIICK
BALANCE IS FOR THE WEAK
>>47120094
That's perfect.
>>47120189
Yeah, my ideas wouldn't be worth much unless combined with NEA's threshold stuff, I agree
>>47119061
>>47119214
I was doing something similar, but a little more of a rules shift.
Instead of 1 point of Capital armor being worth 10 regular armor, it's now worth 100. DropShips get "Subcapital" armor that's worth 10 standard armor per point, and follows the current rules.
Subcap weapons still deal damage at the subcap scale (1:10), and basically retain their current statline. Cap-scale damage is multiplied by 10 against sub-cap ships, and - at x100 - does enough damage to essentially instant-kill anything in "standard" scale. Meanwhile, those Eisensturms are now only doing 2.9 "capital"-scale damage, but shredding droppers (as is only right and proper). JumpShips use Sub-cap armor (mumblemumble bullshit reasons to do with bulk required to properly harden the ship to military standard). Artillery is now firable in space, and works basically as a subcap cannon or missile with very low damage, but does the damage to multiple members of a squadron that it hits (maybe roll on the Cluster Hits table?). Cap-scale missiles and cannon >also< roll on the table, outright killing that many squadron members. Sub-cap weapons now have a +2 to hit vs. standard-scale, while cap-scale retains the +5. Both can bracket.
Nukes are still considered Capital weapons and do the current amount of damage to capital targets.
The rules tweak is simple, minimal, and creates a clear heirarchy. Pocket WarShips are still a threat to capital ships, but now the shitty corvettes can actually do their fucking job against pirate droppers and jumpers instead of dying like bitches to a couple of Unions.
It also makes the game feel more "battletechy". Now you have a clear heirarchy of grunts who can severely damage the low-end sucapitals, while the big boys have to get swarmed and pounded to drop them. Or you nuke them to oblivion with torpedo bombers and heavy PT boats/PWS while they spray lethal fire in all directions.
>>47120689
>Artillery is now firable in space, and works basically as a subcap cannon or missile with very low damage, but does the damage to multiple members of a squadron that it hits (maybe roll on the Cluster Hits table?).
Space hexes are like 18 kilometres across. Something stupid huge, any way. I wouldn't have it able to damage multiple ASFs in the same Squadron.
The armour thing is a bit cludgy but at least makes things reflect the fluff a hell of a lot better than they do now.
I'd make orbital bombardment only do X10 capital damage too unless for some reason you want a NAC/10 to be able to wipe out entire Battalions in a single strike.
>>47120689
So capital ships are now mega-damage?
>>47119833
>I like option 2 quite a bit, but I'm not so sure about NEA's instakill. Maybe automatic crits when a capital weapon hits a fighter instead?
That's actually pretty much what happens now, actually. Doesn't help much.
Here's the way I look at capital weapons vs ASFs. I consider the situation analogous to IRL naval gunfire support against tanks. Specifically, DDs smacking around German tanks - including Panzer IIIs and IVs, Panthers, and Tiger Is**. They were using (comparatively) tiny, tiny guns in naval combat: 4.7" - 6" guns. It didn't matter HOW armored the tanks were, if they took a direct hit from a DD gun, they died. Period. Every time. To say nothing of the larger guns.
**AFAIK, naval gunfire of those calibres never engaged Tiger II units
>>47120764
Hadn't thought about the ortillery side of that yet, although I do agree with you. Something about the same atmo attenuation that somehow makes a weapon with a thousand-klick range in space go 900m.
>>47120833
>It didn't matter HOW armored the tanks were, if they took a direct hit from a DD gun, they died. Period
Wouldn't that mostly be because naval gunfire would be hitting the thin top armor on the vast majority of direct hits?
>>47121174
Id assume that helps plus probably a good deal longer barrels.
