New person here. Here are the questions I'm interested in.
Should I go with 2ed exalted or 3rd edition?
Is 3rd edition better?
Things to look out for so my players don't feel intimidated ( I want to try new systems and settings to break the pattern)?
If you want your players to not feel intimidated, definitely go for 3e. 2e is a CLUSTERFUCK to play, especially the combat system.
The hardest thing about 3e is probably the use of shifting initiative as a sort of secondary health mechanic, but it's not that difficult. Try reading this, it explains things very well in action and gradually introduces new things.
https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?769761-Exalted-3E-Combat-301
Try introducing combat in the system to your players in a similar way.
>>47094833
thx
>>47094812
2e is like AD&D 2e, you might accidentally kill your players and most of the dramatic resolution is "Do you have X? Yes? You win. No? You lose."
2e is the mother of all intimidation. If you don't build your character exactly right, you will simply die.
3rd is overall better, though it has less existing support since it's a new edition.
>>47095621
so I should give 3rd edition a chance and when in nedd use previous edition books for fluff and setting information?
What about 1e?
>>47095697
Precisely.
It's such a big difference, that it's easier to convert stuff to 3e you really want, rather than run it on 2e.
>>47094812
Third edition is better by almost any standard you care to mention. Only problem is that theres just the corebook out right niw, so it will probably require a lot of heavy lifting on the STs part
So, is this the new general?
>>47095697
use first edition books for fluff, 2e writing is generally garbage that misses the point of the setting and most of what it does has been retconned for 3e.
>>47096101
actually, dude, this is what the ancient users of the site used to call a "thread", an archaic construct from the old days where people didnt exclusively post generals on /tg/. a thread can stay on topic, or even go off topic. theyre quite something.
>>47096321
give me an example. I know general premise about Exalted setting. In what way does 2nd edition fucks it up? Also was 2nd edition that bad they retconned it backwards for 3ed?
>>47096336
Woah man stop, we're here to discuss about Exalted, not posting into a stupid "thread" about edition war or something.
>>47096468
2E wasn't too bad at the start. By the end it'd gone full gonzo. Like, sun is a giant robotic ship gonzo. Everything was anime turned up to 11. Which isn't necessarily bad, but it's not the mythical heroes fighting in a doomed world that sold the game initially.
It also had this conceit where the game mechanics were the in-world physics, which lead to all sorts of stupidity.
>>47096553
Incidentally, the people who turned the sun into a giant robotic ship are the people writing 3E. Have fun!
>>47096567
Eh, they wrote what the line wanted. At that time, what the line wanted was stupid.
I have issues with 3E, but they're not with the fluff.
>>47096468
look for a book called "return of the scarlet empress" and just read through it. this is what 2e considers the canon end to the age of sorrows. highlights include: every single sidereal killed by infernals due to a loophole in a martial art, a yozi breaking free even though this is explicitly impossible, the scarlet empress making a bunch of perfectly square islands the size of the blessed isle for no reason whatsoever, and the death of the UCS
>>47095762
>What about 1e?
What about it?
>>47096690
1e was fine at first, but became a clusterfuck of bad design after a few splats.
2e was fine at first, but became a clusterfuck of bad design after a few splats.
2.5e was a clusterfuck of bad design. since it was trying to unclusterfuck 2e
3e.... Well history is telling.
I forget...what were the rules for elsewhere again?
what happens when something gets stashed and forgotten about? does it eventually pop back to reality or is it gone forever?
is there any way you can access somebody else's storage?
>>47096094
I'd just use 2ed stuff to fill it out until it gets here rather than wait for 2018 or 2021 or whenever a given splat comes out. change where necessary...but yeah, even so its much work, basically rewriting many thingsm so those things tend not to get used unless you play 2nd ed. infernals and alchemicals for example
>>47096959
>is there any way you can access somebody else's storage?
One Solar tried that in the First Age.
It didn't end well
>>47096321
I liked infernal...well once you throw out almost everything but chapter 5 ;)
>>47097006
i thought so :P thanks.
I'd assume that means there also isn't any way to fuck with their stuff like destroy or scatter it?
>>47097014
>Shitting on anything Infernal except chapter 5.
Literally Holden.
Ok Holden.
>>47097014
2e infernals chapter 1 and 2 should be required reading for anyone even considering running a 2e game. its some of the worst writing ive ever seen, the constant feeling when youre reading page after page talking about a girl turned into a bloated fuckbeast that the author was jacking off to it as they wrote it is unnerving.
>>47097048
Ok Holden.
>>47097048
This is the common circlejerking du moment. It is repeated again and again by 15 years old who didn't read the book in the first place, probably because reading a book takes forever when you're not used to read.
I don't make a judgement on the intrinsic value of that opinion. I'm just pointing a fact. It could be 'right' circlejerking, though in my experience circlejerking is rarely right.
>>47097026
Well that Twilight got in and found himself frozen in place and time like all the stuff Exalts sent Elsewhere.
I suppose someone with enough effort could potentially fuck with stuff that's Elsewhere, but how do you target an object that by definition can't be targeted?
Personally, I'd still play 2.5e over 3e at this stage if I had a choice. I can see the writing on the wall in advising new people to pick up 3e, though.
2.5e has more or less been beaten into shape and we're seeing the stress and hearing the creaking at the joints as it's strained to the limit. 3e doesn't _have_ a shape yet, although we're seeing a couple of weird outlines like how assassins want Awareness even more than Stealth.
Does anyone have 3ed pdf?
>>47097095
This is the weirdest argument and I keep seeing it. People are dismissing other people's opinions because a lot of people share them. It's the weirdest contrarian nonsense.
If you disagree, explain why. Don't just say 'you probably only think that because people told you to'.
>>47097048
>>47097095
Here's a page from chapter 1. I think the circlejerk has inevitably exaggerated what's going on, but it is pretty nasty.
Other stupid highlights include
> An agata might change a mortal’s fingernails and toenails from translucent keratin to venous panels similar in appearance to its own wings. Alternatively, the Infernal might find that he has iridescent compound eyes and that in place of his human genitals he now has a wickedly barbed stinger.
Join the forces of Hell today and get a free spikecrotch!
> THE TRIUMPH OF THE WILL
Caps because that's a section heading. Way to good taste there.
> Aside from information and opinion, coadjutors also color their Green Sun Princes’ personalities in hues of their own demonic behaviors. The effect is subtle but always present and is based on the type of demon the coadjutor used to be. Erymanthoi, for example, tend to make their Infernals short-tempered and predisposed to seek the most brutally expedient solution to problems. Neomah, alternatively, affect their Infernals’ pleasure centers, leaving them in a state of low-grade arousal regardless of the circumstances.
Because we totally needed neomah painted as stock succubus expies rather than fleshcrafters. /s
> When a Green Sun Prince’s Willpower is completely exhausted, conditions that would normally inflict Limit on whole, bound demons instead inflict it on the Infernal Exalt by proxy through his coadjutor. These conditions are determined as in The Abscissic Guide, but based on the highest Virtue of the Exalt, rather than the former Virtues of the unwoven coadjutor.
Everyone I know ignores the fuck out of the sidebar rule here that requires you to own one of the RoGD books to determine how Infernals gain Limit.
>>47097304
search tg archive for exalted general thread. Search 1st post for links.... or to make it easier for you (just this once)
https://mega.nz/#!E1dRBBIa!ZbQG4IasYCJRli2bhgE2MOdWeFAeV3N1rqL9kAIGbNE
>>47097461
Thank you, bro
>>47097095
ive read it you stupid nigger. one clue that might have led you to this was me referencing something, in the book, that i read. 2e apologists are so god damn fucking stupid.
>>47097445
Chapter 1 extracts continued.
Following Exaltation, the new Infernal is brought to Hell, where...
> the Exalt’s body is shared around among the other Third Circle souls of his master, followed by the jouten of the architect of the Reclamation who designed his Urge (if that Yozi is different from who claims the Exalt’s caste). Any humanity to which the Exalt might have been clinging is more than likely stripped away during this time.
In context it's supposed to indicate demonic communion, not gang rape, but... WORDING, PEOPLE!
> the other Yozis are still demon lords. It behooves any Green Sun Prince not to go out of his way to offend any of them. At best, the offended party might confront the Yozi to whom the offender belongs, which will likely result in punishment and educational degradation until the offended party is satisfied.
Yes, Infernals, you "belong" to one of the Yozis. You're on the worst fucking leash in Creation, one with "educational degradation". Mortal slaves at least have a chance to run away. You? If you try to run away the Yozi can reach out and Limit Break you all day. Wall of text on p27-28 that basically says the Yozis can inflict Limit Break on Infernals for anything displeasing an Infernal does and they're only holding back because the Ebon Dragon convinced them to at least /try/ cooperating.
Oh, and you also belong to all the souls of said Yozi:
> The Third Circle souls of the Yozi who claims a peer’s particular Exaltation are to be considered unquestionable by that Infernal Exalt. (For example, every Slayer is expected to consider Ligier to be unquestionable. They may question Jacint but must still do as he says.) Even those peers who question the will of those whom they are supposed to treat as unquestionable, however, are not subject to legal recriminations or sanctions. Instead, they suffer their masters’ displeasure directly, gaining Limit just as if they had defied their Urges.
>>47097445
This is bad and fucking hilarious. The basic concept isn't bad but details and approach to telling them is bad. It is as if a kid tried to write something cool and didn't know when to stop.
It reminded me of vampire discussion on GURPS forum where a guy posted a pretty decent post. Instead of writing shitty fiction and readers missing the point he made it directly to the point.
In the classic Swedish Chill supplement Horrors of the Night there was an extended essay on vampires and why we fear them. The author focuses on three points - Life without Hope, Lust without Love and Death without Peace.
Life without Hope centers on the hopelessness of vampiric existence. Humans can try to make life better for themselves or other, but the vampire's only goal is to try to keep himself 'alive' for thousands and thousands of years. The nihilism and despair inherent in this existence is palpable.
Lust without Love centers on the values of the vampire. Again, self-preservation comes first. When the vampire can do something else, they try to make others like themselves. They cannot be truly creative, they cannot create free men - like Wotan in die Walküre he can only create slaves. The life of the vampire resembles that of the heroin addict - the only thing that matters is the hunger for the next fix and the desire to avoid the shakes.
Death without peace centers on the relationship between vampires and humans. Vampires mock death, mock the religious conception of reward or peace in death and promise only a life of eternal existence. When a shark has taken a loved one from us, we can hope that they have found peace. But when a vampire takes a person, we know that they are condemned to a life of living death.
I think that if that paragraph was written in similar way it would have been more impactful and meaningful
>>47097445
>>47097557
So we were talking about just how fucked Infernals are if you listen to what chapter 1 says about them being puppets of the demon lords.
> So long as the Infernal Exalted zealously pursue their Urges and unquestioningly accept their just punishment when they fail, the Yozis will hold off punishing them for /every/ perceived misbehavior that falls outside the purview of their Urges. They will instead inflict Torment for only specific kinds of offenses.
That italic "every" is in the original. Be a good slave, accept half your beatings and we won't give you the other half.
Other stupidity includes the note that when the Yozi have a new champion,
> they call all of their Green Sun Princes together from Hell, Creation and Yu-Shan and hold a special conclave at which to debut the newcomer.
Travel time to and from that conclave is MINIMUM five days EACH WAY.
Let's disrupt our operations for about two weeks every time an operative gets killed. Who the fuck came up with this plan?
Also, there's a full five-day conclave every Calibration. What, you thought that might be a good time for Infernals to spend summoning or inviting high demons into Creation? Fuck you, go to Hell.
Pic related, it's how the Hellthing's Infernal justice system works.
>>47097445
>>47097557
>>47097671
For every bit about the Reclamation that I liked, there was an awful amount of stupid shit in that book.
Thanks for reminding me that I own it.
>>47097671
Halfway through reading that in my mind I created a picture where they do "your momma jokes" or Flyting-rap battles in hell
>>47097207
*Everyone* wants Awareness more than anything else. And when everyone is rolling 25 dice with double 9s and cascading 10s, nobody is. Or something.
I would like to think that 3e infernals won't be stinger-penised demon-rapists.
I would also like to think that 3e won't have a splat of stinger-penised demon-rapists at all. Am I setting my sights too high?
>>47097952
Honestly, if you want a stinger penis just play a sorcerer or Wyld mutant.
>>47097952
I'm with you Anon, but with the splats they've added and they speed of writing, I won't hold my breath.
I wont why they picked the Dragon-Blooded as the first splatbook, though.
They were never popular in my area despite everyone having his favorite splat, be it Lunars, Sidereals, Alchemicals or Abyssals.
>>47098142
But I don't want a stinger penis. In fact I want there to be as few stinger penises around as possible.
>>47098439
Start a club, make it a rule that people with a stinger for a penis aren't allowed in.
>>47098266
Dragon-blooded are the most prominent Exalt in the setting. Solars are the most popular, so they come first, but the setting doesn't work without Dragon-blooded (plus they're usually second most popular splat in sales/polls).
>>47098502
>plus they're usually second most popular splat in sales/polls
That's what I guessed, but it's a bit surprising regarding my personal experience.
I'd say the setting works well without the DB having their splatbook, but well, it's understandable for sales and popularity to make the planning.
>>47096468
Compare any description of a Demon in 1e's Game of Divinity to any description of a Demon from 2e's Roll of Glorious Divinity II. The former is extremely flavorful and possesses a degree of mystique, while the latter tends to be very humdrum.
Now, personally, I don't think ALL fluff that 2e introduced is terrible. The problem is that most of it is just repetition of stuff from 1e in a more boring fashion. 2e also gets a bad reputation for its fluff because it includes Dreams of the First Age, a shitty supplement that damaged the history of the setting by filling in the content of the First Age with stupidity. Then there's Infernals, which I think were very, very good when they were presented well, but were very polarizing because they were pretty shit when they were done badly, hence all the bitching about Return of the Scarlet Empress and all the praise for Broken Winged Crane. One can argue for ages about exactly what should have been the cut off point for extensively detailing the Yozi and their personal ideals.
2e's plain tone is not always bad and it certainly does fill in quite a few setting areas, concepts, and entities that had been mentioned before but not expounded upon. Further, 2e's take on the Incarnae in the Glories of the Most High supplements were interesting and the MoEP: Alchemicals and CoCD: Autochthonia books were quite well done. Even so, Abyssals were completely and utterly fucking botched, taking them and the Underworld away from their epic Wraith: The Oblivion origins and dropping them into even more insipid Saturday morning cartoon villain territory than FaFL had gotten himself into by the end of 1e.
But this isn't to say that 1e is totally perfect in its presentation either, though I've run out of room to note why. Basically, IMO, it pays to know the fluff of both past editions and what went down in them so that you can pick out the ideas you approve of and apply them to the presently much more undefined 3e as you see fit.
>>47096716
>2e was fine at first
No, it was pretty clearly fucked out the gate.
EGT Twilight, negro, among other shit, all in Core.
1e was garbage that just shouldn't have existed
2e was amazing at start and then everyone realized how unbalanced it was
2.5e fixed a lot of the balance problems and made an amazing setting
2.5e + homebrew is fucking amazingly fun
3e took everything that 2.5e made outback and shot it in the face. There's absolutely nothing good about the setting for 3e. System is pretty okay since they made it impossible to kill anyone anymore in a single blow. Even Stu, the retarded kid will be able to survive 2-3 blows. Also all the weapons are pretty much the same now with a single tag of difference.
>>47096959
>>47097006
That description for Elsewhere has always been extremely misleading. I'm a fan of Jukashi and all, but he's pretty much outright off in calling Elsewhere its own unique plane unto itself and that idea will only lead new players astray. Actually, I think in the commentary of that particular strip, he outright says that the description is not actually how Elsewhere works.
Initially, Elsewhere just meant something has been put into a pocket dimension, for lack of a better term. It's "elsewhere" - it doesn't matter where, it's just gone from the here and now and can be brought out whenever through whatever means. That's Elsewhere. It's a vague space of "not here right now" that can be exploited to contain stuff. That's it.
>One Solar tried that in the First Age.
An example of the comic writers not knowing what they were doing.
Incidentally, there's a high essence Solar Larceny "stealing from elsewhere" Charm in Lords of Creation that... just lets a Solar do it. It's frankly fucking stupid and further goes to demonstrate a totally misled idea that certain 2e writers had about what Elsewhere was supposed to be, hence it getting wiped away in errata.
>>47098878
>There's absolutely nothing good about the setting for 3e.
Please elaborate on this, anon.
>>47098878
>1e was garbage that just shouldn't have existed
This is someone who has never read 1e and probably has never read 3e.
I actually think 2.5 is perfectly legit once you get a hold on it, but holy shit, saying 1e is garbage demonstrates a very serious lack of comprehension of the setting's development.
>>47095621
You summed it up with aplomb. I feel like when I play 2e it's all technical and with little in the ways of dramatic story-telling.
What's the mega link for 1e?
next time you post about exalted just remember this man >>47098878 posts alongside you and any opinion or advice you read may be written by his small and weak hands
Do you prefer Ex2's 'pretty much everyone can dabble in martial arts styles' or Ex3's 'martial arts are super hard to get into and only specialists will be buying them'?
Do you prefer Ex2's 'sorcery is sorcery; every sorcerer goes through the same trials even if they have slightly different flavors' or Ex3's 'sorcery is whatever it is; the source can be wildly different even if the powers are similar'?
Do you prefer Ex2's 'Thaumaturgy is mortal sorcery and necromancy; a series of useful rituals that can be powerful but are always limited in some form that anyone can learn' or Ex3's 'only certain people and exalts can be thaumaturges, and only special people can learn thaumaturgical arts'?
>>47097952
>stinger
isn't that a modified ovipositer? so the chicks would have a stinger dick.
like the gnoll-->spotted hyena debate
>>47099663
I really liked a lot of the 2e fluff about sorcery. The trials were cool, and I really liked the idea of sorcerous regalia - the mantle, the sword, and the crown. I REALLY don't like how MA has been shut behind a gate and is the suboptimal choice for the Dawn combat monster - Exalted is a kung fu movie, dammit!
>>47100562
>and is the suboptimal choice for the Dawn combat monster
Getting doubled XP to pump into a massive variety of combat tactics that also offer non-combat skill effects is not really "suboptimal."
>>47100562
>Exalted is a kung fu movie, dammit!
Congrats on being part of the problem they tried to solve with MA merit
>>47099004
i think he feels it adds nothing to the setting that wasn't already in the last two and removed everything he liked about 2.5+homebrew
context, bro ;)
>>47096483
Well too late, I'm posting my own views.
Clearly the reason why 2e was so bad? Bush. 2e game out during his presidency and the quality of 2e also went way, WAY down compared to 1e.
I don't think this is a coincidence.
>>47100604
Aren't wuxia movies one of the biggest inspirations for exalted?
>>47100886
And JRPGs, particularly Final Fantasy. The conflict with the Neverborn in particular reeks of the typical Final Fantasy apocalypse plot, except that the dead Primordials have a better motive for their omnicide than most FF antagonists.
>>47100631
That isn't exactly elaborating on the post, anon. Telling us what exactly is so objectionable about 3E's setting and what made the previous editions so superior would be.
>>47100631
>i think he feels it adds nothing to the setting that wasn't already in the last two and removed everything he liked about 2.5+homebrew
>>47101093
>That isn't exactly elaborating on the post, anon. Telling us what exactly is so objectionable
what exactly do you expect? an itemized list of ways in which 3ed was not expanded and things not added to it?
>>47101372
sure
>>47099663
These questions really speak to me.
Honestly? I prefer a little bit of both in all cases. This post definitely reminded me of things I wasn't extremely fond of in the transition to 3e and why I think 2.5 continues to be a valid choice if you're able to swallow and understand it all, though. There are certainly balance considerations to take into account either way that more or less even things out, but regardless.
Considering the character I transferred over from 2e to 3e, even though the concept remained the same, the changes to his overall backstory and presentation were pretty extensive to account for 3e's directional differences. I think it was for the better, though, as it brought the character more down to earth.
The character was supposed to be skilled at martial arts, social-fu, and sorcery, which stretched things thin and required careful adjudication of xp even in previous editions; in that regard, martial arts and sorcery essentially switched places. Sorcery was once the extensively gatekeeped area of expertise while martial arts was easy to jump into and grab charms from. In 3e, Sorcery has become easier to dip into, while martial arts is something that requires deep investment. In my opinion, neither 2e or 3e got this right - in both editions, both skill sets either have too many or too few hurdles. Mechanically speaking, though, things have worked out for me in both editions once I've gotten a handle on the system, so I can't complain too much.
>Do you prefer Ex2's 'sorcery is sorcery' or Ex3's 'sorcery is whatever it is'
I liked the trials because they were extremely flavorful, but in a meta sense they were a series of backstory checkmarks to justify being able to learn Sorcery. They did go a looong way towards demonstrating why not everyone could learn Sorcery, though.
>Do you prefer Ex2's Thaumaturgy or Ex3's 'only special people' Thaumaturgy
The former is better for the setting. 3e's fits the real-world definition better, though.
>>47100585
>Getting doubled XP
Wait, what? Did I miss something?
>>47101594
He's referring to Solar xp.
>>47101372
>what exactly do you expect? an itemized list of ways in which 3ed was not expanded and things not added to it?
When someone says that 3e "took everything that 2.5e made outback and shot it in the face", they're implying that in some way 3e retroactively makes 2.5e worse or that it isn't compatible with 2.5e.
Is 3e incompatible with 2.5e? I've seen nothing to indicate that. How is 3e's fluff even different other than adding more stuff to the edges of the map? Is 2.5e's appeal dependent on the Dreaming Sea region not existing? Do Mortal Sorcerers invalidate all previous work in the game? Is the fact that there are additional types of Exalts somehow contradictory to the older fluff in any way beyond "here are some people you probably haven't met"?
I think the answer to all of that is No. 2.5e's fluff still exists, 3e neither harms nor threatens it, and it's a better rule system. Not perfect, just better.
(Unless you think 3e threatens 2.5e by drawing players away from it. Which is fair enough, because it does. Who'd want to play 2e now that 3e is out? Who'd learn 2.5e when they can learn 3e?)
>>47101594
MA charms can be bought with Solar XP, which cannot be spent on solar charms. (Not the best word choice there; think of it as core XP and bonus XP.) The cost of the merit is basically a cost to access combat proficiency without taking XP away from your character's main focus. Or you could get Supernal Awareness/Dodge/Resistance as a Dawn and master that while mastering Martial Arts and get double the combat charms.
Highly focused. I'd rather play a Dawn Sorcerer and get some versatility in there. But highly effective.
>>47101372
>what exactly do you expect? an itemized list of ways in which 3ed was not expanded and things not added to it?
No, anon. I expect, or rather would like, some specifics on what makes 3E's setting suck. This isn't exactly unreasonable.
What limits, if any, apply to charms that add to your damage dice? With Brawl you can stack up very high onslaught penalties, and use a 1m charm to add that onslaught penalty to your damage. If I manage to get an enemy to a -30 onslaught, do I get to add +30 damage with that charm? If not, what's the max?
>>47096658
Are you fucking retarded? Return of the Scarlet Empress explicitly says it is NOT canon.
>>47096658
Also the scarlet empress doesn't turn the West into squares, SWLIHN does, because she's the primordial of order.
You're bitching about a book you haven't even read.
>>47101800
If you can hit a guy 30 times without them stopping you or leaving, you've won. The book even mentions that the GM can declare a character to be out of the fight if they're basically just a free source of initiative. +30 damage at that point doesn't really matter when their defenses are all zeroed and you already hit them at least 20 times.
Hey, is there anywhere I can get my hands on a copy of the E3 corebook? My google-fu is failing me atm and I don't have the money to get it from DriveThru
>>47102240
There'd normally be links in the OP of the general
https://mega.nz/#!ctgxyJaC!ygkrLnFsrnBJzIUZY-dJsMfyFrhFQgDsQuuo52fcW0I
http://www.mediafire.com/download/q51qw8skdw1rg15/Exalted_3e_Core.pdf
>>47099663
3e MA is stupid.
2e Sorcery and 3e sorcery are both valid, and I can't say if I like one or the other more. 3e sorcery is certainly more generic, but it also more flavourful - or should I say, it is easier to draw parallel with other works and other worlds. 3e Sorcery is every sorcery ever. 3e sorcerers are every Sword and Sorcery sorcerers ever, every eastern wizards, every Hindu brahman. I can play pic related in 3e. I can play almost any wizard in 3e and almost any character concept. It was created to allow this.
On the other hand, 2e sorcery is incredibly evocative, and gated in such a way as to make it really rare and potent. 2e Sorcery is hermetic. It is interesting, fascinating. It is the tool of the dead creators, the hacking into the matrix. 2e Sorcery is less versatile thematically, but the themes it gets are absurdly powerful.
3e Thaumaturgy is weird and doesn't work as explained or expected. The gate on the number of thaumaturges when thaumaturgy is so incredibly useless is weird and doesn't feel right. The book seems to imply there is more sorcerers than thaumaturges, which simply doesn't work in the setting as it is. It is workable with some changes, and certainly seems more powerful thematically than 2e thaumaturgy.
I can dig people able to do minor miracles in a setting where gods, demigods, demons, and superhumans exist, as long as they are numerous enough to fill their niche. People able to do minor miracles and rarer than demigods are useless in any sense of the term.
>>47101553
>>47101679
>>47102285
These are some great opinion posts.
>>47102285
Now, for 3e thaumaturges and their place in the setting, there should be little but a change of venue between edition. Instead of every tribe having a shaman that was schooled in the way of spirit, every tribe has a shaman with the thaumaturgic spark that was schooled in the way of spirit. The spark adds an air of mystery to something that should be mysterious: certainly, in the popular stories, not everybody can talk to the spirits or perform exorcism. Only special people can do that.
This version of thaumaturgy allows more interesting stories to be told, like a shaman seeking for a worthy successor, or a spark'd individual plagued by visions and wonders. It is incredibly low fantasy for Exalted, but it is actually alright for minors shamans to be low fantasy. There was always this distinction between the incredible lives of heroes and the grim lives of mortals. A spark'd shaman can supplicate a spirit to answer him by prostrating for a day, while a terrestrial exalt while drag him kicking and screaming while being engulfed by a literal bonfire of magical energy.
>>47102285
>3e MA is stupid
3e MA is "you have to learn this from something or someone".
This might be a "common among PCs" issue. MA is harder for PCs to access than natural charms, but the existence of the Merit really doesn't change the setting. You have to learn MA from someone or something; unless your character's backstory involved meditating in a cave until he learnt Steel Devil Style... actually, even then you probably had some sort of funky spirit dream mentor.
Similarly
>People able to do minor miracles and rarer than demigods are useless in any sense of the term.
Thaumaturges are more common than that, aren't they? Specific thaumaturgical rituals are rare, like Jesus Bread and the ritual that summons one specific river god in one specific area, but the tea leaf reading is described as being more common than every type of non-Terrestrial Exalt put together and Sijan is full of funeral thaumaturgy.
It's easy for PCs to access Sorcery, but fluff-wise it takes years to learn while a thaumaturgy takes weeks. You need a special talent, but it's still going to be easier for those people to learn that than for any given intelligent person to learn Sorcery.
>On the other hand, 2e sorcery is incredibly evocative, and gated in such a way as to make it really rare and potent.
On this, I agree. The more accommodating sorcery backgrounds work too, but I liked the Five Stations and the big sacrifice. I hated the way every PC I've ever seen was written in such a way to cheese their way out of having to give up anything that would ever inconvenience them, but I liked the idea. The Keychain of Creation story where Marena and Secret learn Sorcery did it very well.
You have five minutes to explain to me how Golden Janissary isn't pretty much a Hamon ripoff.
>>47102732
I won't because that's not a bad thing.
>>47102732
It is. It just lacks the 'Golden Janissay who has attained the mastery of the form can add 20% to his lifespan as he is sustained by sun energy'.
>>47102727
>>3e MA is stupid
>3e MA is "you have to learn this from something or someone".
I think the problem is more that you not only need the Merit, which demands you put a useless little dot in Brawl, but also raise individual, distinct Martial Arts abilities for each style you want to use. The bp and xp cost is exorbitant with the only consolation being the existence of Solar xp, and even then, that's only for Solars.
>>47099663
I think the developers' lack of understanding about martial arts really shows through in the 3e implementation. They should have simply had Unarmed and Melee and you can take Martial Arts Charms as normal but you can't get the Celestial-level benefits without paying for the "Celestial Martial Artist" merit.
Ex3's sorcery is way better, but that's probably because the whole implementation was written by Vance. It's elegant and simple and easy to build an entire session around or not, depending on how you want to do things. Which is just right.
2e's Thaumaturgy was more interesting, I guess, but it's not compatible with 3e sorcery, really. I'd like a compromise where 3e sorcery was more available to mortals but only in the workings way and only difficulty 0 and 1 stuff. The XP requirements alone would basically forestall much of it ever getting done.
But this just goes to show someone can write a brilliant system and the incompetence of the morons running the show can still undermine it.
>>47102923
>2e's Thaumaturgy was more interesting, I guess
I do not agree. The only difference in practice between 2e and 3e thaumaturgy is that 3e thaumaturgy is gated, and I personally think that gating thaumaturgy is thematically potent, as long as it is not overdone for the sake of it. In low fantasy fictions, you can either see the angels, or not. If you can't, that's it.
>>47102978
>The only difference in practice between 2e and 3e thaumaturgy is that 3e thaumaturgy is gated
wtf
2e thaumaturgy is grades and fields of magic science you can study if you are occult enough
3e thaumaturgy is irregular rare miracles you may or may not get access to by accident of birth
>>47102910
Still doesn't change the fluff outside of moving it from "your master iaijutsu swordsman can probably throw a punch with moderate efficiency" to "your master iaijutsu swordsman can definitely throw a punch with moderate efficiency". Frankly, the fact that MA doesn't require decent base physical stats is much weirder than that.
The cost isn't exorbitant for Solars. The consensus is that MAs are a strong option. And sure, other characters might not get as much out of them, but when the only thing that's been released is the core/Solars book, does it actually matter for the purpose of playing the game rather than reading it and analysing it alone? (Not saying that judgementally; I haven't found a group for it either.)
>>47103166
You can study rituals in 3e as well. Sijan is still a thing. Thaumaturgy is more of a change than MA, but neither is incompatible with the previous versions' books.
>>47102910
>I think the problem is more that you not only need the Merit, which demands you put a useless little dot in Brawl, but also raise individual, distinct Martial Arts abilities for each style you want to use. The bp and xp cost is exorbitant
OTOH, you don't have to buy useless filler charms.
>>47103264
> You can study rituals in 3e as well. Sijan is still a thing.
Sijan is still a thing, but it's not nearly as useful a thing as in 2e:
> Thus thaumaturgy bears another distinction: books of thaumaturgy are useless for teaching thaumaturgy. A thaumaturgic ritual known to one thaumaturge may only be passed to another through direct teaching and practice. Such rituals are directly communicated and transmitted from thaumaturgist to thaumaturgist
Scavenger lords find a First Age lorecache and... fuck you, the grimoires are useless. Extra so since
> Mortal sorcerers do not gain this Merit automatically, and it cannot be taught, either to mortals or the uninitiated Chosen. One is either born with the power of thaumaturgy or one is not.
And then there's the massive flattening of Thaumaturgy. While I think it was a bit complex in 2e, the progression was interesting, and 3e has overflattened it by reducing all thaum to either one-dot or two-dot with no differentiation of type.
>>47096468
You could invade a city in 2e with a giant floating war ship armed with beam weapons, dropping soldiers into it wearing power armor.
The game was supposed to be illiad and odessy sword and sandles.
>>47104036
>The game was supposed to be illiad and odessy sword and sandles.
This just gave me a revelation as to why I've got into so many arguments about 2E over the years.
I never played 1E, 2E was my introduction to Exalted, so I didn't know what it was "supposed" to be, I only knew what it was, and that I liked it. It wasn't until much later that I learned 1E and 2E had drastically different tones about them, and that I vastly preferred the latter.
I was so disappointed when they announced 3E was going to be more along the lines of 1E than 2E.
>>47104036
I'll throw in my 2c here and note that this wasn't even the sort of splatbook issue mentioned by >>47096553 in talking about going gonzo; 2e Core mentions
> the giant mechanized suits of armor called warstriders
> the advanced power armor manufactured in the Shogunate Era
as examples of 3-dot and 4-dot artifacts.
>>47103536
Nah. The lore cache is useful as hell, as the lords of the Southeast can tell you. The Children of Ten Fathers are the reason that Ysyr and Prasad do not rule the Dreaming Sea.
The lore's not worth shit to a Thaumaturge, but it turns out that might as well mean 'to one type of sorceror.'
>>47103444
What filler charms?
>>47100631
Ex3 added a bunch of stuff to the setting though. A lot more than the 2E core added (which was nothing at all).
We will use godbound for the next campaign. There are two types of Mortals. "common mortals" and "heroic mortals". Heroic mortals can be quite a threat to Exalted. Do you think that's ok or speaks against the setting?
>>47105619
Considering 3 heroic mortals can drag pretty much any Solar short of a Dawn behind a shed and stab them to death in 3e, I'd say odds are fine.
>>47105619
Alright, and what's the actual difference between common mortals and heroic mortals? Just talent and training? Is it Charles Atlas superpowers?
>>47105711
Being important enough to have a name, mostly.
Talent and training come as part of the package, but not always. e.g. elite soldiers can still be "common," despite being very well-trained, whereas a farmboy with a lot of potential can be heroic.
>>47105711
>Heroic mortals are blessed with special virtues, either by grace of
enormous natural talent, magical blessings, an exotic lineage, or some
remnant of ancient magical transhuman augmentations. While still
very much human, their talents are flatly better than common sorts.
>>47105699
>Considering 3 heroic mortals can drag pretty much any Solar heavily invested in a single niche without even a little in the way of defense behind a shed and stab them to death in 3e, I'd say odds are relatively good all things considered.
ftfy
>>47105827
3/3 and an Excellency doesn't really overcome the numbers disadvantage, which is about all anyone but the Dawn will have in combat.
>>47101959
You failed to answer my question, and you apparently don't know Brawl very well. Adamantine Fists of Battle lets you easily rack up enormous Onslaught penalties on a target.
>>47105874
A decent investment in E1 Dodge, Resistance, or certain Martial Arts style Charms is enough to survive more than long enough to use the skill you're actually good at - presumably of the social or mental variety - to save your ass, if not just get out of dodge and either hide your ass or flee to your ripplingly-muscled death machine companion that you almost certainly have.
Which is not to say that there are not Solars who lack this advantage in favor of going all into their preferred niche, of course. In which case they've traded survivability for probably an insane amount of efficacy in that are and must now see if getting stabbed was worth it.
>>47101800
This is the case in point. Clearly if there's no limit to how many damage dice you can add, you can easily add enormous damage dice to your flurry.
>>47106161
And yes I'm aware you can't combine the onslaught part of Adamantine Fists with Hammer on Iron.
>>47101679
>Is 3e incompatible with 2.5e? I've seen nothing to indicate that.
i think the infernals are at least getting a total rework, so possibly them yes. i'll wait til then to say its incompatible though who knows how the changes will change by the time they publish
>>47099663
3,2,2
For the purposes of increases anima level and the Night muting ability, how long is "one instant"?
Is it a single roll like accuracy, a single action like the entire attack process, a single turn like my attack and other actions taken, or a single round to include my defences and actions taken outside of my turn?
>>47108299
A single roll, more or less. Same reason the Excellency only applies to one attack, not an entire flurry.
>>47108391
So I could spend 4m on several rolls I make, and no increase my anima? Or I spend 2m to mute it, but only for 1 roll?
That seems fair for non-Nights not flaring too easily, but it really makes the Night's ability quite brief.
The muting ability was the only really useful one for Night castes, the other 2 are situational minor boons specifically for stealthy characters.
Oh well, better than nothing.
>>47108439
>So I could spend 4m on several rolls I make, and no increase my anima?
Correct.
>Or I spend 2m to mute it, but only for 1 roll?
Correct.
>That seems fair for non-Nights not flaring too easily, but it really makes the Night's ability quite brief.
Generally if you're in a situation where you can avoid flaring, you're not really being pressured to begin with. The Night ability is useful for dropping those big 5m/10m Charms without anyone being the wiser, or going hard with your Excellency.
>The muting ability was the only really useful one for Night castes, the other 2 are situational minor boons specifically for stealthy characters.
They are, yes, and they do need some fixing up, but the peripheral-damping power isn't to be underestimated.
>>47105619
So, It's okay?
>>47108653
A heroic mortal's specialty is about on par with a Solar that isn't particularly designed for that specialty. They could fight a Twilight with minor combat investment, but a Dawn would curbstomp them with ease. With numbers, cleverness and guerilla advantages, they could be a challenge.
>>47096959
Elsewhere is best described as a State, not a Place. The object is neither here, nor there, therefore it is Elsewhere.
This is not actually a rule printed in any of the books, but I found that it helped explain the concept to my groups.
Elsewhere itself, depending on what books you pay attention to, was a discovery of the Exalted, or something the Raksha mastered first. That part has no real bearing on the rules though, just food for thought.
CAn you use MA, for example White Reaper, from horseback?
>>47109396
Sure, go for it.
Man of all the shit to get cut from core its a fuxking travisty that they had to get rid of the tables for resources cost of normal things like housing clothing and food. Where are they gonna fit that into a future book?
>>47110406
Who the hell cares? You actually track how much money people need to spend on clothing? I dont even do that in games which actually have a currency system.
>>47110622
pretty much this. Very soon play characters get in the position that they have enough money that buying mundane stuff doesn't even make a scratch on their budget or they are able to create/summon/conjure stuff they need
>>47103166
>3e thaumaturgy is irregular rare miracles you may or may not get access to by accident of birth
Nothing prevents you from studying and sharing thaumaturgy. It's not a science anymore, more one-part occult communion and one-part spirit supplication, but the shamans of the tribe of the Silver Hawk, Blood Dragons, and Howling Bear can still gather every year to share their rituals.
This is why the change is little more than cosmetic. 3e thaumaturgy is not a science anymore, but in reality, very few of the setting treated it as a science in the second age. It was a collection of poorly understood rituals, remnant of knowledge long past, and strange, low key magic. So they decided to make the new thaumaturgy is a collection of poorly understood rituals, remnant of knowledge long past, and strange low key magic.
What is stupid, though, is the implication that some rituals are so rare as to be forgotten. Rituals as powerful as 'I can lit a fire in the rain!'. If really they reappear every twenty years or so, you'd better believe that they would have been shared with a thaumaturgic tradition of some import somewhere along the line. If the shaman of the Mountain Band tribe suddenly learns to create a fire in the rain, you'd believe that he will at least share it with his successor and allied witch doctors.
Everywhere there is civilization, there should be large, loosely tied bands of thaumaturge sharing their rituals. This is a natural consequence of being part of a "witch specie" that can only learn new magic by sharing with another.
The 3e view on this subject seems to imply every thaumaturge is a crazy, deluded, paranoid being, incapable of meaningful interaction with everyone.
>>47105915
AFoB increases Overwhelming (minimum damage on a withering attack), not Onslaught.
There is no maximum damage bonus. That Brawl charm doesn't need to have one. If you can make 30 attacks and maintain onslaught penalties, then you've won anyway. You've crashed your opponent, probably multiple times, and you can freely launch a high-Initiative decisive attack against their defense of 0 that will destroy them. Or else you've been launching decisive attacks during your 30-hit spree and have already destroyed them.
If you can hit a guy 30 times without them stopping you or leaving, you've won.
>>47111391
>AFoB increases Overwhelming, not Onslaught
Wow, I am a dumbass. Here I was thinking it let you inflict a -6 onslaught penalty with strength 5 with each withering attack.
>>47111061
>The 3e view on this subject seems to imply every thaumaturge is a crazy, deluded, paranoid being, incapable of meaningful interaction with everyone.
So... a player character?
>>47112604
Only if you play with people from high school.
>Chargen software: http://anathema.github.io/
which option to download for most up to date 2.5? highest version or most recent modified?
how to run? do I need the .exe AND the zip? is there a version for flashdrive install?
>>47113296
That link is for the Github repository. You want this link:
http://anathema.butatopanto.de:8081/full/5.1.3/
Download the Zip, unzip it to wherever you want, and then just run it.
How is 3e Resources different from 2e anyway?
>>47113394
fewer books out yet(you can only really be solars right now), slightly different rules, more popular cause its new and the mechanics aren't bogged down yet ;)
>>47113429
I mean the Merit.
>>47113450
Starts higher and scales higher. You are no longer assumed to be a dirt-poor destitute dirt farmer without a patch of dirt at resources 0. Resources 1 makes you middle class.
>>47112604
No PC worth his salt will even buy a thaumaturgic ritual, unless the player does it for fun. It is subpar. Thaumaturgy is pretty explicitly the magic of the mortals, and mortals should be reasonable enough.
If Thaumaturgy could be taught to everyone, I could understand that some people would try to keep their rituals secret to the mass. But a thaumaturge is rare. Sharing a ritual doesn't dilute his intrinsic value when you are only three people in the town able to use it. Shamans have everything to gain and nothing to lose to share their rituals, and thaumaturges should essentially live in big guilds where they trade secrets almost openly.
Sijan's Order is an example of such big guild, but they should be almost everywhere. Nexus' Guild of Thaumaturges should be a thing. Shamanic pacts should be a thing. Apprenticeship should be a thing. For god sake, schools should be a thing. Thaumaturges are basically Harry Potter's wizards.
Instead, the setting seems to imply all thaumaturges are crazy, uninterested at learning new rituals, intelligence 1 barbarian of the wild.
>>47113505
>Thaumaturges are basically Harry Potter's wizards.
So Sijan is like Edgy Hogwarts?
>>47113505
>Instead, the setting seems to imply all thaumaturges are crazy, uninterested at learning new rituals, intelligence 1 barbarian of the wild.
.... so, Player Characters?
>>47110622
Players do, actually. I've found that my group liked that table, because it gave them an idea of how currency worked in Creation. Instead of just faking it.
They understood how much Resources 1 or 2 actually gave them, and what to expect as general spending when in various locations. They were equally displeased that it went away as I was.
>>47110622
Its more than that. Exalted has always put big focus on the setting and its nice to get a general idea about the economy and how much certain things cost and who can afford what. Besides if the characters decide to set up inside some town its nice to know how much things like housing and food are going to cost.
Is there a cheat sheet for when I need a quick reference about a 3e mechanic or other?
>>47115299
>>47113672
Aside from not being edgy and not being like Hogwarts, I guess.
>>47114862
PCs are really interested at learning new magics, usually, and at applying them to make a ton of money.
>>47113505
>all thaumaturges are crazy, uninterested at learning new rituals, intelligence 1 barbarian of the wild
It's a good point, but that version of a thaumaturge and your version aren't mutually exclusive.
A thaumaturge manifests a new power. If they share it, then they're like your example. If they don't or can't, they're like Mr Double-Bread in Nexus (who was probably written like that for the subtext of "The Guild: So evil they beat Jesus to death").
Most people in Creation live in a community of less than ten thousand, so most thaumaturges don't live with other thaumaturges. I agree with you that the ones that do should form a guild of sorts.
How good is being able to Introduce Facts? Do people do it a lot?
>>47103444
The only characters who had to buy those 'filler' charms were Enlightened Mortals and Terrestrials. Celestials and spirits didn't require them.
It must be a day ending in Y, because Holden is being a faggot again. Here's the hamster's latest take on how perfect his baby is.
> EX3 has produced fewer requests for rule-clarification than ANYTHING we published during 2nd edition. The notion that VCR programming manual language leads to less player confusion is, as far as I can tell, very wrong.
Or maybe it's because you've grinded down your playerbase, whether by lossage during the two years of Totalitarian Leak-Suppression Methodology or by having people give up sending in clarification requests because it gets them fucking nowhere.
Or maybe it's because your book has been in print two fucking weeks and a lot of people who ordered it haven't even received the bloody thing, let alone gotten a chance to read through it enough to reach the state of player confusion.
And maybe "less shitty than 2e" just isn't a very high bar.
>>47117610
>EX3 has produced fewer requests for rule-clarification than ANYTHING we published during 2nd edition.
How does Craft work again? Ah, yes, it doesn't!
>>47117610
>Totalitarian Leak-Suppression Methodology
I'm stealing that for a SWLiHN charm.
On the idea of thaumaturges. Book says there are multiple measns to be one; blessing, training as an apprentice, inborn guft, etc. This doesn't mean the merit is stupid rare, just that the ability is not universal.
A thaumaturge is any local mystic, medicine man, shaman, weird old gypsy woman, crazed homeless guy who tell your fortune for an obol, etc. Anyone with that specific touch of actual magic mojo. I personally view it as being an uncommon merit, but not so rare as its suggested. A town might have one to three actual thaumaturges, but each decent town might have that.
Reason for rituals not spreading? Miost likely very few of them would bother searching out new tricks, or be terribly driven to teach. Only a few would have that mindset. Local tribes miught share and some rituals will spread, but there isnt a "market" for them.
>>47117610
>And maybe "less shitty than 2e" just isn't a very high bar.
I'll take this option for $5000, anon. 2nd was the edition where the Illusion keyword denoted mental influence that created false beliefs. False memory implantation? Illusion. Make people believe the Solar is their boss? Illusion. Redefine a church's dogma? Illusion. Compel someone to agree with whatever they read? Illusion.
Various Stealth and Larceny charms that did things like turn you invisible or imitate another type of Exalt's anima? Not Illusion.
>>47117610
I think they're both kinda similar in complexity ex3 is just better
I've only been playing Exalted for a few months now so I might not be as seasoned as some of you guys, but to me it seems that 2e would be perfectly fine as it is if they would just take the damn time to redo the books into a cohesive structure instead of release-it-as-we-come-up-with-it
>>47118041
Get in a fight in 2e, and you'll see how cracked it was down at the very foundation.
Physical or social, doesn't matter, they're both equally horrendous, because they used the exact same chassis for both.
>>47117610
Link. Link to this stupidity. Nao.
>>47118071
I've been in a few and I did notice that, yeah. I can kind of see where they were going with the whole "social combat" thing, but it's a little off when you have to sit and mutter a frenzied mantra of "please don't roll all fours again!" so you can avoid your character suddenly deciding to get drunk and get into a fistfight when you're about to greet the High Elders of the Immaculates
>>47097781
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4ABXe3jlqQ
I always imagined this being the first thing that would go down in such a rap battle.
>>47118161
http://chat.mibbit.com/?server=webirc.sorcery.net&channel=%23exalted
>>47117739
2e: splits Craft into five elements, people ask for clarification which element their doodad falls under
3e: splits Craft into infinite subgroups from architecture to gemcutting to basketweaving to weaponforging, no clarifications needed
Holden: "look, less player confusion"
>>47118071
I'd say their foundational problem was they wanted a very small hit point track (NO MEATPOINTS ALLOWED!) where you are dead after taking 8 points, but they also wanted weapons to have a damage range other than 1-2 and their Charms system had to have a fuckton of Melee charms that could combine in various ways to make you deal more damage.
So they patched it by having the real hp track be motes and the damage range be "4" (the cost of a perfect defense) against motepools of 50ish.
3e instead tries to patch it by making your damage range basically be 1-2 in terms of how much decisive damage you are getting from a withering hit, and needing a "conversion" attack to actually implement this potential damage as actual health damage. But then it fucks it up again by letting the Awareness Excellency generate instakill amounts of pseudo-damage in round 1.
>>47105619
The setting is kind of schizophrenic when it comes to the question of how far above mortals Exalts really are. Sometimes the game rules themselves talk about how a mortal with a knife is a real threat to a Solar, but then some of the rules and almost all of the fluff treat mortals as less threatening than difficult terrain, nothing more than human-shaped plumes of smoke to be waded through. So it really depends on which version you want personally.
>>47117743
Alchemicals when?
>>47118591
At te current rate? Some time in 2030.
So, if I have Occult as my supernal, what sort of stuff should I be grabbing if my character's supposed to claim to be one of the best sorcerers?
>>47118764
Probably ones for squeezing spirits for power, since there's not a lot in the Solar Charmset that actually makes you a better sorcerer directly.
>>47118764
Charms you want.
Occult
Terrestrial Circle Sorcery. Obviously.
Spirit-Drawing Oculus +4. Loads of extra motes.
Supernal Control Method. Free excellency once a scene.
Ancient Tongue Understanding. One auto-success on shaping rolls..
Spirit-Draining Mudra +4. Drain a captured spirit to get motes. Ties you to the place you bound the spirit.
Lore
Heaven-Turning Calculations +6. Add Lore to "spell effects".
Charms you spent:
Minimum 1
Balanced 8
Maximum 20
>>47118591
It'll be the last Exalt splat released, because Autobots are magitech as fuck and Holden and Morke HATE magitech. Fucking Fair Folk will be released before them. Hell, Dragon Kings and Mountain Folk will be out before Alchemicals. So yeah, like >>47118620 says, 2030 at the earliest.
>>47118908
Alchemicals are Holden's favourite exalt though. He's already written them once. They'll be out last because they don't matter to the setting.
>>47118528
3e splits craft into as many crafts as you want. If you want the five elemental crafts you can do that.
>2e: splits Craft into five elements
Dont forget craft genisis and magitech and fate and penumbra and gossmar and helltech and necrotech and...
>>47119016
>>47118528
Also dont forget about the crafts the mention offhand in singular places, like craft soulforging and craft jadeforging and the ghost book, or craft reality on the section about reality engines in either dreams of the first age or wonders of the lost age
>>47117739
>How does Craft work again? Ah, yes, it doesn't!
Its pretty clear how it works, even if it works bad
>>47110406
is that stuff left over anywhere?
>>47118838
Thanks, omae
In the stats for the Buck Ogre, pg 538, it says that a Buck Ogre will attempt to flee after taking 6+ levels of damage. It has a combat movement pool of 5. Well, after taking 6 levels of damage, it's on its -4 health track, so its combat movement is only 1. Successfully withdrawing at this point is nearly impossible. Am I missing something or is this just not thought out?
>>47119647
no its just a dumb animal.
Is it just me or is Rampage-Berserker Attitude (pg 282) a bit shit?
Can you just shove your anima up to iconic if you just shove the motes into nothing?
>>47120059
No, you have to spend them on something.
That something can be an Lore excellency though, which would have no visible effect besides your anima shooting up
>>47120076
"I WILL NOW PUT ALL MY POWER INTO UNDERSTANDING THIS THING!"
*Whooosh! Pillar of sunfire!*
>>47119935
I think Octavian has a similar Charm. So let's see.
Your normal unarmed punches have +7 damage, overwhelming 1. When you hit you'd normally do STR + 7 + Withering Successes raw damage, minus their soak. Let's say you're STR 3, so you'll do 10 + successes raw damage on a hit.
Let's say you manage to hit with X successes. Normally you'd do 10+X raw damage. With Rampage-Berserker Attack, you instead do 10 damage.
"and how many times the damage of her attack is repeated" is a really vague line. I think it means repeat raw damage and subtract soak once. But it may also mean post-soak damage before rolling, or that you roll damage and then multiply the result.
Assuming it means the first of those three, here's your normal raw damage and your R-BA rawdamage for a given number of successes.
X | Normal | R-BA
0 | 10 - Soak | 10 - Soak
1 | 11 - Soak | 20 - Soak
2 | 12 - Soak | 30 - Soak
3 | 13 - Soak | 40 - Soak
4 | 14 - Soak | 50 - Soak
This looks pretty crazy. It is an Essence 4 Charm usable only once per scene, so I guess it's intentional.
Now, assuming it means you repeat post-soak damage before rolling, then the chart looks like this
X | Normal | R-BA
0 | 10 - Soak | 10 - Soak
1 | 11 | 2*(10-Soak) (If their soak is >=5, you lose damage with this result over not using the Charm)
2 | 12 | 3*(10-Soak) (If their soak = 6, you break even on damage. If it's >6 you lose damage)
3 | 13 | 4*(10-Soak) (If their soak >= 7, you lose damage)
4 | 14 | 5*(10-Soak) (If their soak >= 8, you lose damage)
Because this is incredibly weak for the cost and Charm investment, I don't believe this interpretation is correct.
Someone ought to ask on their forums how this Charm works. Based on these two results I think the former is the correct interpretation of the three I had.
>>47120567
From reading that I think it's the 2nd one. You repeat the same attack and subtract the soak from EACH attack. You say it's not that great, but consider using Increasing Strength Exercise at Essence 4 with only strength 3. Then use Adamantine Fists of Battle. You're then adding 7 to your minimum damage, meaning you're rolling at least 8 dice on your attack. That means with 4 extra successes you're rolling a minimum of 32 withering dice.
>>47120567
Charms don't exist in a vacuum, though. A Charm that's "crazy, but fine" on its own becomes "completely fucking retarded" when used in conjunction with other Charms. Which is exactly how the Solar Charmset is supposed to be used: in combos.
If their onslaught is lingering at even +3 thanks to your foundational Brawl Charms, the math of the Charm changes dramatically (both +3 extra damage on each of those attacks, and it multiplies damage by another 3 times).
>>47120567
Rampage berserker attack does the latter and is one of the best withering charms in the game. It doesn't exist in a vacuum, you can generate 60+ initiative on a single attack with it. That isn't a joke.
>>47120679
I think that might be one of the reasons why my GM decided to run a low-power game, something that I was sceptical to at first but have come to like more and more.
Immaculate Monks are awesome.
>>47120658
>>47120679
Those are good points.
Using Adamantine Fists of Battle raises your Overwhelming by your STR for just 4m. Fists of Iron Technique takes away at least 1 soak (Supernal Brawl) and likely more like 6 or 7 (at Ess 4) for 1m. Ferocious Jab adds onslaught as damage, which can easily be 3 damage, for 1m.
Together, using those raises the cost of the combo to 13m, 3i, 1wp.
For 3m or 3i each you can raise your STR with Increasing Strength Exercise, but let's assume you stay at STR 3 with unarmed fists for now.
X | Normal | R-BA
0 | 10 + onslaught - (Soak - Fists of Iron, min 0), min STR+1 || 10 + onslaught - (Soak - Fists of Iron, min 0), min STR+1
1 | 11 + onslaught - (Soak - Fists of Iron, min 0), min 4 || 2*(10 + onslaught - (Soak - Fists of Iron, min 0), min STR+1) => min 2*(4), max 20+2*onslaught
2 | 12 + onslaught - (Soak - Fists of Iron, min 0), min 4 || 3*(10 + onslaught - (Soak - Fists of Iron, min 0), min STR+1) => min 3*(4), max 30+3*onslaught
3 | 13 + onslaught - (Soak - Fists of Iron, min 0), min 4 || 4*(10 + onslaught - (Soak - Fists of Iron, min 0), min STR+1) => min 4*(4), max 40+4*onslaught
Normally with each success your damage goes up by 1. With this combo each success raises your damage by at least STR+1, at most by (10 + (X+1)*onslaught).
You've convinced me. The second interpretation seems much more likely when considering other Charms.
>>47120658
>>47120679
>>47121086
If you need to use good charms to make a charm good, how good is it really?
I mean if you've got Adamantine Fists of Battle, Increasing Strength Exercise and a lingering Onslaught Penalty why not just use Fivefold Fury Onslaught? It's cheaper, harder to defend against and kills your opponent instead of just crashing them.
>>47121263
>If you need to use good charms to make a charm good, how good is it really?
Power isn't linear in the Solar Charmset. Charm X and Charm Y are way better together than just X+Y.
This is why having any 1 of the first five Craft Charms gets you less than 10% closer to crafting a 5-dot artifact, but havng all 5 Craft Charms together is enough to almost certainly craft them successfully.
>It's cheaper, harder to defend against and kills your opponent instead of just crashing them.
They tank the first hit with a Charm, resetting your initiative and let Hardness eat the rest.
>>47121338
>They tank the first hit with a Charm, resetting your initiative and let Hardness eat the rest.
They can only do that if they have some way to raise their Hardness to the level your attacks are going at. That said I don't agree with >>47121263, I don't think Fivefold Fury Onslaught is harder to defend against or very much cheaper, since it'll cost you 1wp to activate the scenelong Adamantine Fists. Besides strength does nothing with decisive attacks.
>>47121338
If we're assuming Ess 3, Str 3, ISE, Ferocious Jab, and Armour Eating Strike - and they're tanking the hits and relying on hardness - the last hit is going to be 17 dice of damage, ignoring 6 hardness. And that's assuming you're at 3i and it's your opening attack.
>>47121631
it only receives the cumulative +1 to damage on *successful* hits - that was changed from the leak. You're rolling 11 attack dice per hit, and against a reasonably skilled DB with an onslaught negator, you'll be burning more motes than him to ensure a hit
>>47121581
Fivefold is Harder to defend against because they need to defend against it (str|stm) + 1 times. RBA they only need to defend against once.
Strength does nothing with decisive attacks, but ISE add dice to all your decisive attacks and, obviously, higher strength means more attacks.
Adamantine arguable does more for RBA than it does for FFO.
Question for the nerds, one that I don't see discussed as much: What anima banners have your characters had?
>>47121693
That's why I said 'if they're tanking the hits'.
11? I make it 4 (base 1 i, plus 3 off ISE), ticking up by 1 each time off Ferocious Jab. Plus again off FFO if you hit.
>>47121783
Attack dice, not damage dice
>>47121779
A coiling Quetzecoatl whose wings were writing quills for my dynast-born supernal linguist solar. A bloodied defiant figure for my Zenith. A were-tiger for my should-have-been-a-dawn Eclipse and a giant corona for Djala Hitler.
>>47121631
- 3 STR raised to 6 with Increasing Strength Exercise, giving +3 to all decisive damage - 9m at most
- Hammer on Iron + Fivefold Fury Onslaught gives STR+1 attacks, so 7 attacks - 5m, 1wp
- Ferocious Jab gives +0/+1/+2/.../+6 damage assuming they start with no Onslaught - 7m Because it's supplemental and not reflexive you have to use it with each attack in the flurry. Although it doesn't say this in the Charm rules, it does on pg 419 with Special Activation Rules under Cutting Circle of Destruction.
- Armor-Eating Strike reduces their Hardness by STR - 7m, again because it's supplemental
>pg 195 "A decisive attack that strikes but fails to penetrate the target’s Hardness is still considered a successful attack"
If they're tanking hits with Hardness with this, Fivefold Fury Onslaught will still add damage. Assuming each hit is successful, each hit gains +1/+2/+3/.../+7 damage
So, combined, you get 7 attacks at standard (DEX+Brawl). Assuming you start at 3i, and each attack is successful, they do the following amount of damage.
Base: 0/0/0/0/1/1/1
HoI: 1/1/1/1/1/1/1
ISE: 4/4/4/4/4/4/4
Ferocious Jab: 4/5/6/7/8/9/10
Fivefold Fury: 5/7/9/11/13/15/17
Each attack ignores STR Hardness
Total cost of 19m+ISE's mote cost, 1wp
So yeah, that last hit does 17 damage and ignores a lot of Hardness. What Charms would there be to let someone tank these hits with Hardness?
>>47121783
He said you're rolling 11 attack dice, not damage dice. Though I don't know why he says 11. Shouldn't it be at least 12, if we're assuming (DEX+Brawl) of 10 + 2 stunt dice?
>>47121779
The duelist dawn: Anima: A dim grey light gives way to a bright morning; golden petals like cherry blossoms float through hte air and three doves fly a sigil of peace as the anima becomes iconic; showing a lovely maiden in a kimono holding a katana and dulling the blade.
The angry brawler dawn: Anima: A dim red glow grows brighter and brighter, like the dawn through a lake of blood. The more it glows, the purer the glow becomes; at full iconic it is a pure golden glow, surrounding an armored warrior-maiden of a bygone age, bedecked in orichalcum and brass armor decorated with scrolls.
>>47121973
11 is dex + brawl + spec.
I'm not assuming stunt dice on every attack
>>47121993
That's odd. You should assume a 1-die stunt with each attack. There's no reason not to and it takes very little effort from the player.
Increasing Strength Exercise is utterly broken when combined with Fivefold Fury Onslaught or Invincible Fury of the Dawn.
Hell, any multi-attack charm, but those especially.
I do not think ISE should grant them extra attacks, because thats quadratically scaling damage - the most effective strategy is just to spam them every round, and thats anti-fun
>>47122038
Maybe i'm gifted with players, but most of the time my players will find broken combo's and while i'll grind my teeth and say 'that's cool.' They usually tend to not spam the same attacks every round even if they can. Because Exalted is supposed to be dramatic and building a story. Any powergamer can find broken stuff and spam it, that's what they'll do too. People who are there for creating a story and having fun will use such things sparingly. (At least in my experience) Until they aren't given an option except to do that for survival.
>>47121973
Yeah, misreading it as damage was my mistake.
The pinnacle resistance charm (Aegis of Invincible Might) combined with the first (Durability of Oak) will give them pseudo-22 soak (20 soak, reduce damage by 2).
Of course (especially 'cos this started with me saying RBA seemed a bit shit - and it's at the same pre-req level of ess 4, brawl 5) the brawler can just pick up Orichalcum Fists of Battle and turn off all soak.
>>47122038
I'm really not a fan of any of the 'increase base damage of decisive attacks'. I mean look at what ISE and FJ do to Apocalypse Flare Attack.
>>47122286
And by soak I mean hardness.
>>47120076
Alright, I'll just shove them into whatever excellency I'm not using, or has the highest dice pool for dramatic scenes that would require quote unquote "powering up"
>>47122263
imo, its the only truely "broken" combo in Ex3. There are tons of strong combos, but that one is both too easy and too strong.
I just say that ISe doesn't add extra attacks.
>>47122286
Ferocious Jab is fine because it has counterplay and the costs add up if you want to use it on something like FFO.
ISE is just a giant damage boost for the cost of a simple action and 9m or 9i
Why does Immortal Warlord's Tactic have an initiative cost? In what situation would you be doing Strategic Warfare rolls in combat?
>>47121871
like the beer?
>>47121779
related question: anybody devil tiger infernal and pick a custom anima ability?
>>47122479
Oh. I see, it's for use with Transcendent Warlord's Genius
>>47116750
>The only characters who had to buy those 'filler' charms were Enlightened Mortals and Terrestrials. Celestials and spirits didn't require them.
Except for all the redundant useless JB enhancers you have to buy before you can get the real charms.
>>47122479
... To make a Strategic Warfare roll in combat.
>>47096553
>It also had this conceit where the game mechanics were the in-world physics
I hear this a lot but I'm not quite sure what people mean by it.
>>47098768
>2e also gets a bad reputation for its fluff because it includes Dreams of the First Age, a shitty supplement that damaged the history of the setting by filling in the content of the First Age with stupidity.
Fuck ya'll I liked DoTFA. Science Fantasy is best genre and it formed a major influence along with Asura's Wrath for my own homebrew setting.
>>47097671
>>47097557
>>47097445
You know, it's fucking amazing that Infernals are STILL one of the most popular splats despite this god-awful writing at the start of their book.
>>47096094
3rd edition loses out in content obviously, it wins mechnically just as obviously.
>>47123635
DoTFA was done in the most boring and insipid way possible. hurr the first age was exactly like the modern day
>>47118528
>But then it fucks it up again by letting the Awareness Excellency generate instakill amounts of pseudo-damage in round 1.
Explain further.
>>47124057
He's talking about the Join Battle roll. "Pseudo-damage" is Initiative. You get more initiative if you boost your Join Battle with the Awareness Excellency.
>>47123990
The first age was literally nothing like the modern day except that it had a lot more convenience. Everything else was BLATANTLY magical and unlike the real world.
And even if it is exactly like the modern day, who cares, it looked fucking cool as shit and the aesthetics of the First Age were so goddamn badass.
You know I'm like >>47104258, I got into Exalted in the 2e days and one of the reasons I fell in love with it was this idea of a fantasy world that had a Science Fantasy era before it. I was fucking gutted when I heard that 3e was literally ripping it out for no other reason than to appeal to a bunch of no-fun shitheads.
Exalted was introduced to me as "Over-the-top Anime and Science Fantasy: The Tabletop RPG" and that is how it will always be for me.
>>47124201
Is there any way to counter big initiative?
>>47123990
>DoTFA was done in the most inspiring and clever way possible. hurrah the first age was greater than the modern day
I can say stupid shit too anon.
>>47124339
Mostly the fact that you have full resources to spend on defense and your opponent just blew 10+ motes getting that init.
Alpha strike builds are very scary, but they really hate life if you can make it to round two.
>>47124373
Jokes on you, I use Melee! All that Initiative just makes me even more invincible!
>>47124216
The First age is still a period of over the top magical wonder in 3e tho.
>>47124216
The First Age should be a period of incredible wonder.
The First Age as presented by the 2e supplement was not, it was a failure of the imagination and the writers made it look like a near-future earth.
>>47124481
But not in the Asura's Wrath/Final Fantasy style of magitech. The corebook is extremely vague on the matter but it appears to be more mythological--the 3e First Age looks similar to the Second Age, just that there's a lot more magical stuff around thanks to the Solars. There's no essence cannons or giant mecha or skyscrapers surrounded by glass roadways.
Basically the 3e First Age is like, say, Olympus Mons in Greek Myth. It's a paradise compared to the current age but it's still rooted in pre-industrial age technology and aesthetics.
>>47124551
>Essence Cannons
>Weather-controlling machines
>Entire cities turned into architectural pieces of art
>Fuck-huge magic battle suits
>Gigantic flying battleships capable of nuking entire cities into dust
Yeah, right.
Funny thing is that in-universe, 2e First Age would be mindblowing to a person from the Age of Sorrows while 3e First Age would just the same shit but better.
>>47124606
>There's no essence cannons or giant mecha or skyscrapers surrounded by glass roadways.
Aaaaactually, all of those things are definitely still in the game. Explicitly.
This has always been a problem because the dissemination of info regarding 3e misinterpreted what the devs intended for it, or else what they intended was not wholly clear enough. It doesn't really matter which, but in practice...
>Essence Cannons
Lesser First Age siege weapons would be in the realm of, say, a lightning ballista. That is certainly acceptable in 3e.
>Weather-controlling machines
That's something easily created through a Working, so could definitely be created through Craft.
>Entire cities turned into architectural pieces of art
What makes you think this isn't still the case? The backstory section plays up the absurd grandeur of the First Age all the same.
>Fuck-huge magic battle suits
Holy shit, have you even read 3e? Warstriders are in.
>Gigantic flying battleships capable of nuking entire cities into dust
Seriously, what the fuck? There's nothing saying that can't be there.
See, that's the advantage of the current edition: it's not hammered down exactly, so it can be whatever the fuck you want that you think fits the setting.
In the first place, the science-fantasy aesthetic hasn't really been done away with, exactly. Terms like "magitech" and "motonic" are no longer there, but they really don't need to be. I think you are finding a problem that isn't actually there because you are afraid that it is, but it isn't. Nobody who has read the book thinks that stuff isn't permissible somehow or is going to scoff at you for implementing it, so don't worry about it.
>>47124606
Where are you getting that from? Chiaroscuro still is built on the ruins of a multi-million person glass arcology.
You're reading way too much into what the First Age was like. There is no reason why a more obviously magical First Age couldn't match or exceed 2e's vision of what the first age looked like.
The part I liked least about 2e wasn't the stuff like essence cannons or whatever, it was its focus on crap like "helltech" "necrotech" and all that garbage.
>>47124833
I'm getting it from the hateboner the devs and many members on the forum have against magitech and the overall Science Fantasy aesthetic that 2e First Age went for.
Sure, they leave it open, but the devs and writers all pretty much say "if you're not doing First Age OUR way you're Doing It Wrong".
Yeah, 2e First Age was dumb as fuck sometimes, but it had a lot of cool ideas. I like how the Solars took Essence and used to uplift every facet of humanity life into near-paradise.
>>47124821
It seems like they completely did away with Ashigaru/Gunzosha/Dragon/Celestial/miscellaneous powerarmor though.
>>47125061
Probably for the best. When every player makes a grab for them, it kind of takes away from it. Besides, Evocations are just better for powerful artefacts.
>>47123544
your character *knows* about stunting and mote regen as a part of how the world works. (its kinda like...did you ever read worm? theres another story called pact by the same author, in it the magicians grandstand because the spirits are more likely to play along if it was impressive. goo look up one of the scenes where they discuss it and picture your characters doing the same)
>>47125061
Dude, Gunzosha battle armor are literally mentioned BY NAME in the book.
>>47125101
Still not a big fan of Evocations modelling everything special about artifact armor and weapons.
>>47125196
>>47125061
It's true.
>>47123706
they're fun.
just gotta skip to the good stuff ;)
>>47124216
i tend to cherry pick and ignore that book, mostly picture it as only being "modern day" as wheel of time's first age was. ''sufficiently analyzed magic" sounds cool but it was better left hinted at rather than the detail the book went to. seems better as an idea in your head. its like how you'll mostly either see people ignore the 3 spheres thing entirely or decide she "only" took away outerspace and planets being round
>>47124833 yeah, necrotech was dumb.
...but i kinda liked the lighning powered trains or whatever
>>47124606
>Funny thing is that in-universe, 2e First Age would be mindblowing to a person from the Age of Sorrows while 3e First Age would just the same shit but better.
yeah, thats what I don't like about the 3e changes.
>>47125061
Power armor was just regular armour with bells and whistles attached, evocations do the same thing so there's no need for it
I doubt they removed explict references to magitech because they didn't like if. I think it was for the same reason they got rid of owod meta plot, so that people could make their own. If you liked sci fi first age that can still be there if just isnt explicit Canon anymore
>>47124339
>Is there any way to counter big initiative?
Share with them the Wisdom of the Celestial Crane.
>>47124995
>Yeah, 2e First Age was dumb as fuck sometimes, but it had a lot of cool ideas. I like how the Solars took Essence and used to uplift every facet of humanity life into near-paradise.
I find it hard to call it a near-paradise when people still died at all, let alone died from old age.
How useful have you guys found the Chopping, Piercing, and Smashing tags to be? Do you get regular use out of them?
>>47125925
Smashing is fucken incredible.
Piercing is solid.
Chopping's benefits are so narrow (+0.5 damage on a withering or lowering hardness by a net of 1) that it's never really worth the Defense hit.
So, Immortal Blade Triumphant, pretty great Charm.
But the last part where you can use it to super boost one Decisive attack, can you use that to super boost all the attacks in Iron Whirlwind Attack?
>>47125987
I'd say no.
>>47125969
>
Chopping's benefits are so narrow (+0.5 damage on a withering or lowering hardness by a net of 1) that it's never really worth the Defense hit.
Are we reading the same book? Chopping gives +3 raw damage on a withering and -2 Hardness on a decisive. Compared to Piercing, which only gives -4 armored soak, which is like +4 raw damage on a withering except worse if the target is in light armor. Both cost the user -1 Defense and 1i. Where are you getting your numbers from?
So wait how do accuracy values for archery and thrown weapons work? It has that list for close/medium/long/extreme which I at first thought meant that was the accuracy values of all archery/ thrown weapons at those ranges but then different weapons have tags like archery(short) and thrown(medium) do they just use that value?
>>47126134
If you read what the tags on page 590, it says
>All Archery weapons also have their maximum range listed in parenthesis, such as Archery (Medium)
Their accuracy is determined by the range you fire at. The tag lists their maximum range.
>>47126026
Rationale? "Attack-enhancing Charms" is a pretty broad descriptor and I dare say Immortal Blade Triumphant certainly enhances attacks.
>>47126049
>Are we reading the same book? Chopping gives +3 raw damage on a withering and -2 Hardness on a decisive.
Yes, but you pay 1 init, so 2 of that +3 raw damage are spent making up for the init you lost just using Chopping to begin with.
Likwise, if they have Hardness 8 and you have init 6, Chopping won't actually help you, because the -1i counters the -2, leaving you with an init of 5 vs. their hardness of 6.
Neither are actually +3 or +2, they're +0.5 and +1.
>>47126203
Mostly because it doesn't obviate usage limitations, only costs. If I have a Charm that can only be activated once/scene, IWA doesn't let me use it on every attack.
Same way Immortal Blade Triumphant's damage-boosting effect requires ending the Charm; IWA doesn't help with that because it's not a cost.
>>47126259
Thank you, that is much more sane than I originally read it. Provides quite a bit more of a limitation on what you can cheese with it.
