If magic is linked to intelligence, then it's something that basically anyone can learn (at least acquire a working knowledge of) with enough time, effort and a decent educational infrastructure, right? And presumably like anything it's something you need to start learning from a really young age to get a good knowledge of.
So, why aren't there more things like "wizard kindergarten", "pre-school for sorcerors"? Why isn't "breaking reality with your brain 101" a compulsory course in schools of any topic or level right up there with literacy and numeracy?
Think about it, a more empowered (literally) workforce is a more productive workforce. As soon as your fantasy setting hits the point where you can meet nutrient needs of large populations with relatively light agriculture (i.e. you get potatoes), why can't everyone start getting basic wizardy?
Again, not saying everyone needs to be PHENOMENAL MASTERS OF THE ARCANE!!! but, like, wouldn't everyone's lives be enriched by fucking cantrips?
>>46911706
>If magic is linked to intelligence, then it's something that basically anyone can learn (at least acquire a working knowledge of) with enough time, effort and a decent educational infrastructure, right?
maybe
in harry potter, magic is linked to intelligence, but all the intelligence in the world won't turn you into a wizard if you don't have any magical potential in the first place.
>>46911706
Eberron
>>46911706
>So, why aren't there more things like "wizard kindergarten", "pre-school for sorcerors"?
Its called the "magical training" feat. http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/feat/Magical_Training
>If magic is linked to intelligence
are you referring to something in particular? I'm going to assume you're talking about Vancian D&D wizardry.
It's implied that an enormous amount of effort and dedication is required to become even pathetic at magic. I've always associated it with calculus, rocket science, engineering, you know all the courses in our world that take a lot of effort to really be proficient in, not the kind of thing your average peasant is going to sit through just to be able to prestidigitate some stains out their husband's smallclothes.
>>46911706
Official DnD settings make no sense. Nor do most homebrews. DnD settings should logically be something similar to the Tippyverse, or else have magic restricted by fiat (divine intervention, or some weird extra property, etc).
>>46911706
>So, why aren't there more things like "wizard kindergarten", "pre-school for sorcerors"? Why isn't "breaking reality with your brain 101" a compulsory course in schools of any topic or level right up there with literacy and numeracy?
>school
>in a quasi-medieval setting where kids are expected to tend fields or learn a trade
They actually discuss this briefly in the 5e PHB. Intelligence gives one the power to bend magic in much the same way that strength gives one the power to bend physical things.
Are you a programmer? Wouldn't your life be enriched by being able to create simple programs to help automate tasks for you?
Also, specialty schools tend to be expensive, and a government would not really be interested in funding classes where people can learn how to kill each other easier. Arcane magic tends to not be trusted, because it's power without any real responsibility (unlike divine magic). The whole "no sense of right and wrong" business.
>>46911706
Have you tried not playing DnD?Have you tried not being a faggot?
>>46911922
>school
>in a quasi-medieval setting where kids are expected to tend fields or learn a trade
You think you're being smart. You're not. The whole point is that DnD magic ability is so useful and easily-acquired that there would be schools for it everywhere. A town without a magic school would be like a town without a single carpenter or blacksmith.
>>46911978
So towns will tend to have a wizard with maybe an apprentice? Makes sense.
>>46911978
>easily-acquired
I've never gotten the impression that magic is easy to acquire, especially considering you need a PC level to acquire it, which is generally considered to be the culmination of years of training (or just being a sorcerer but that's a different story).
>>46911914
In 3rd edition, they have a limitation where you cannot cast a spell unless you have the spellcasting ability score equal to 10+ the spell level (ie, 15 to cast level 5 spells).
With the majority of the population in the 9-10 range, most people would barely be able to cast a cantrip.
>>46912022
And there we are! Standard setting.
>>46912025
But it also means that you don't even have to be particularly smart to start throwing fireballs around - the level requirement would probably be a bigger issue. Then again, once you got first, you'll get enough XP eventually from occasionally throwing out a non-lethal magic missile to break up fights.
>>46911883
>all the courses in our world that take a lot of effort to really be proficient in,
>calculus
>engineering
kek, 9 int detected.
>>46911964
>Are you a programmer?
Yes
>Wouldn't your life be enriched by being able to create simple programs to help automate tasks for you?
Not particularly, no.
>>46912180
you missed the point to do a meme on me, 9 wis detected
>>46912235
>he wants maymays
>>>/b/
>>46912180
>It doesn't take much effort to become really proficient at calculus or engineering
>Anyone who thinks otherwise is 9 Int
9 Wis detected. Anon's not talking about some basic course that the interested can do in two years.
>>46912141
13+ is actually pretty smart. Not for adventurers, but for most people a score of 12+ is rather exceptional. A small village might only have a single person with a score that high, and even a town might only have a handful.
>>46911706
>magic is linked to intelligence
Only in some settings.
>Why isn't "breaking reality with your brain 101" a compulsory course in schools of any topic or level right up there with literacy and numeracy?
Because there aren't schools (in the modern sense) in pseudo-medieval settings and the majority of the population is illiterate.
OP, the standard D&D setting you're speaking of is mostly commoners, warriors, and experts. Yes, you can learn magic with decent educational infrastructure, but sadly decent educational infrastructure does not exist.
Plus, magic is very expensive, and it isn't as good as you think it is. "Breaking reality with your brain 101" is roughly equivalent to "How to make a magical beam that is slightly less effective than a crossbow."
>>46912351
Horseshit. That would make Giant Vultures the intellectual equals of rural humans. I've been to Kentucky - people there weren't THAT dumb.
>>46912559
In 5e, giant vultures have an intelligence of 6.
>>46912327
Anon, Calculus is not difficult. I wouldn't know about any engineering courses but calculus isn't hard to pick up if you'll sit down for like an hour a day for a few months. After that you should have it.
It doesn't take some monumental amount of effort or dedication. So long as you had sufficient education up until that point it shouldn't be vastly more difficult to pick up.
If you aren't prepared to do calculus, sure, it'll be hard, but that's true of literally everything that requires some sort of prerequisite.
Maybe I'm good with numbers and biased or something, but you shouldn't have difficulty with calc.
>>46911706
>If magic is linked to intelligence, then it's something that basically anyone can learn (at least acquire a working knowledge of) with enough time, effort and a decent educational infrastructure, right?
Not necessarily, though that is a conclusion that many people seem to make in the assumed OGL great wheel setting. Personally I like magic to feel a bit more... magical, and not just "science but different." Then again, that's my taste.
>>46912369
>there aren't schools (in the modern sense) in pseudo-medieval settings
No, but there's no particularly good reason for nobles to not be given a formal education by a member of the clergy.
>the majority of the population is illiterate
Is that the case in your games? It hasn't been in mine.
>>46911706
All High Elves are taught at least one cantrip when they grow up. Most other races aren't as educated.
>>46912937
>a member of the clergy.
Clergy aren't wizards. They aren't even necessarily casters of any sort.
>Is that the case in your games?
If you're playing in a pseudo-medieval setting and literacy is widespread then you probably have a very poorly thought-out setting.
>>46913099
Almost every setting including magic is incredibly poorly thought out.
>this many idiots think intelligence can be taught
>>46911706
While it's fair to say someone getting basic education would bolster an already low intelligence, you can't force someone to be a genius. If you consider magic as difficult a subject as more advanced fields of physics or medicine it's easy to understand why it's so difficult to apply oneself to the field. Depending on the setting it may still take at least a year of practice to learn something as simple a conjuring up a light, and when the common man is working the day for those two silver pieces he needs to feed himself he's not going to dedicate the precious few hours he has with his family to attempt prestidigitation over again. Now if the government introduced this sure, but it's worth considering that not all cities would even have public education. Only the richest of cities could afford this, and even then the nobles of high society would prefer to keep things exclusive and not sink too much into what could be a laughable idea in the long-run. The only way I could see this happening is if some wandering adventurers came in with the idea, since most dungeon crawlers have enough money to be lords in their own right.
Basically try making a cleric/archivist dead set on creating public education with this in mind, it sounds fun. I know I'm using it.
>>46912022
>>46912084
Does that sound like a magic school? One guy and his hanger-on?
No, it doesn't. Strawman harder, and eat shit.
>>46912024
PC levels rarely require much more than training. A half-day at magic school every day until you're in your mid-teens would suffice. Or are you going to tell me that, as a DM, you'd reject that as a character backstory? I don't know any who would.
>>46913198
>this retard doesn't realize that it can
Go take a dozen different IQ tests over the course of a couple of weeks. I guarantee you your last results will be better than your first ones.
That's because what we think of as 'inteligence' DOES factor in learned skills.
>>46911978
Consider that in D&D a spellbook will run you 100 gold. That's a very sizable investment, and you need one in order to be a wizard at all. Even if there was a Wizard in your town willing to teach, it's doubtful that every family could send their child there to learn magic, or even that each child would have aptitude.
More likely is wizards tutoring the children of more wealthy individuals, with possibly a few of them having the intellectual capacity, resources, and actual drive to become a mage.
Thus you end up with >>46912022
Intelligence is 80% genetic
>>46913760
And who exactly is paying for this magic school? Are the parents of these children paying the wizard? Who's funding their incredibly rare and expensive school supplies? Even something as simple as copying a spell into a spellbook is enough to eat for a month.
>>46912824
Oh really.
Then without looking at wikipedia or Googling it, tell me what a derivative is, that's beyond "it's the rate of change at a certain point of a function."
Or better yet, tell me how you can use a derivative to describe the behavior of a function over a large range.
Or what an integral actually does for you, in 3 dimensions?
>>46911706
First, most D&D settings don't have schools. Or don't have very good schools.
Second, in most D&D settings with schools, a magical academy is the school in question. In which case, YES, they do have Wizard Kindergarten 101 as the first course they run everyone through.
Third, since a lot of D&D fantasy is based off medieval Europe, most of the kings and lords don't want an empowered workforce.
Fourth, education in wizardry means not educating in other areas. You might be able to teach a large number of peasants how to light a dark house in the middle of the night, but if the neighboring kingdom is using that same time to teach them proper crop rotation, carpentry, metalsmithing, and other valuable trades, then your kingdom will be ground into the dust through trade if nothing else.
I'd note that only a limited number of people could actually cast spells even if they did take wizarding levels, although that probably depends on edition.
>"pre-school for sorcerors"
And fifth, sorcerer spellcasting is not tied to intelligence. (It is also a natural ability, and cannot be taught.)
>>46913783
Are you literally retarded? That's not your intelligence increasing, it's your capacity to take IQ tests is getting better.
>>46913880
>Then without looking at wikipedia or Googling it, tell me what a derivative is
Different anon here.
The slope of a function is how much a function is changing at a specific point. Basically, if a function was charting out the distance an object was moving, then the slope would be the speed/velocity that the object was moving at that point.
The derivative is basically a graph of the slope, at all points of the function in question. If the original function was a graph of an object's distance as it changed over time, then the derivative function is a graph of an object's speed as it changes over the same time.
>what an integral actually does for you, in 3 dimensions?
An integral is basically a reverse-derivative, or an inverse-derivative. That is, if you have a graph representing an object's speed over time, then it can be integrated to determine it's distance at any point over that time. (Assuming you know it's position at any one point.)
Integration can also be used to determine the area under the graph of a function, although I will admit that I've not seen a good use for doing so. It's been awhile since my math classes.
>>46911706
Didn't we just have this thread the other day?
>>46913783
IQ=/=Intelligence=/=Knowledge skills.
IQ tests measure ranks in Knowledge skills.
Taking a few tests means investing unspent ranks.
>>46913880
Different Anon again,
A derivative is really just the rate of change of a variable with respect to another variable at any instantaneous point along a function (piece wise as well). It can be used to separate a line into infinitely small little tiny segments and can tell you the difference between each segment.
The flip side of this is an integral. With respect to one variable, an integral just adds up a bunch of infinitesimals. If you integrate over a distance, you get the length of that distance, integrating a function (or a double integral over an area) gives you the area. Integrating over three variables or a function over two variables you have 3 dimensions and thus a volume. If you integrate over three variables over another function, say mass as it models a non-uniform mass distribution, you could find total mass of the object. Integrals are actually pretty easy once you get use to them conceptually, now solving them becomes a different thing.
>>46911706
Intelligence =/= Knowledge
So while magic would be the field of genius it would, like genius, not be something you could control at all.
>>46911964
No and no.
>>46911706
Shitloads of people in D&D know a spell or two. Not everybody is a Wizard.
Just like shitloads of people can play music, or draw, or cook, or shoot but not everyone is a concert pianist, painter, or professional chef or Marine scout/sniper.
>>So, why aren't there more things like "wizard kindergarten", "pre-school for sorcerors"? Why isn't "breaking reality with your brain 101" a compulsory course in schools of any topic or level right up there with literacy and numeracy?
Most D&D settings actually do have an arcane academy of some sort. There's also Bardic colleges.
But there isn't a lot of organized education in general in a D&D setting. Military academies, trade schools, seminaries aren't really all that more/less widespread in D&D either.
>>
Think about it, a more empowered (literally) workforce is a more productive workforce. As soon as your fantasy setting hits the point where you can meet nutrient needs of large populations with relatively light agriculture (i.e. you get potatoes), why can't everyone start getting basic wizardy?
Because even "basic wizardry" as in the ability to cast a couple of level 1 spells takes many many years of intense study. The time/opportunity/effort/cultural attitude just isn't there for everyone to be a Wizard.
It's easier to increase your physical strength than your capacity for intelligence. They'd be better served all taking a level in Fighter and/or Rogue (awesome HP, bonuses to skills, sneak attack, second wind, etc) and be a society of Ubermensch.
Also, keep in mind that the majority of these people do perfectly fine without even being able to read. Not being able to memorize and execute complex arcane formulas is not likely to be something that keeps them up at night.
>>46913760
>>A half-day at magic school every day until you're in your mid-teens would suffice.
And when you're spending HALF your day at Wizard school learning to cast 1 or 2 cantrips, Billy over there is spending ALL DAY at his other school and learning to be just as awesome, if not more so at whatever he's doing, even if he can't cast a cantrip.
>>46912351
Right +5 is pretty much the cap for most normal humanoid npc
Adventurers are expected to blow past that but a normal person will probably never have a +5 mod for an ability
This is also why dwarves are regarded as such great craftsmen the have a bonus to their profession in addition to their ability modifier
Adventurers aren't normal they're superheroes and start by default better than 90% of the population at level 1
Even without magic the fighter will reach a point at higher levels where he can fall off a cliff and then tank a dragons tail swipe
>>46911706
Because
1) Magic is dangerous if not used appropriately so using it can lead to accidents. See: fire, detergents, electricity, cars etc. today we still have problems with people causing fires leading to the death of multiple people because they are irresponsible, despite requiring everyone to go through testing to obtain a drivers licence car accidents are one of the leading cause of deaths in the world. Now magic is much more powerful than those so having built in safeguards is a daunting task so it is better to restrict its usage instead.
2) Since magic can be potentially destructive it can and will be weaponized. Thus the secrets to weaponize magic is usually kept under close guard by those secretive groups of individuals that know these secrets. Handing out the knowledge of throwing lightning bolts to anyone is like throwing out free high tech weapon to everyone. It will lead to similar events as school shooting they are just using magic instead of guns.
3) Not every setting is the same, in some setting you can only learn magic if you have the "special gift" that you are born with or infused with or whatever.
>>46911706
There are schools where kids go to learn magic. Most of those kids die or go insane, the rare few become wizards.
That's why so few people send their kids there. Kids are a lot of resources and if one's lived long enough to work and possibly become an heir, why waste that kid just to have them die learning how to be a social outcast with no understanding of the day-to-day world because their heads are stuck in matters of the occult?
>>46911706
1: It depends on the setting, there's no universal set of facts about magic that is true for every fantasy IP.
2:The stuff you described is why magic being pure "science" that you can learn in books and that behaves in predictable ways always leads to retarded worldbuilding, or notretarded worldbuilding that looks nothing like traditional fantasy.
Magic needs to either have a component that's out of your control, like pacts with magical entities, or random dangers, or some kind of trait that just randomly appears in the population that you can't breed for.
If you inherit magic potential from your parents, the agents of king clever is going to show up as soon as some spotty teenager accidentally sets fire to a barn or makes someone's heads explode and go "Hey kid, wanna never have to plow any fields or slave away at your shitty cobbler-apprenticeship any more? You'll get to live in a palace/tower and eat good food and have women lining up to fuck you, as long as you don't leave the kingdom" And they'll go
Oh boy, can I have a pair of expensive boots and do 3 girls at the same time? And the agents will go "HAH, why not four?" and 2 generations later King Clever's Heir (that he might have gotten on some concubine with magic potential) will have a legion of orphans raised by the kingdom to be battlemages and shit all over the rest of the world, because if they don't do it someone else will, and trying to stamp out magic will inevitably result in people with magic potential going into hiding and causing trouble in the long run.
If you learn magic just by reading books, the same things happen but faster.
So unless you are okay with your fantasy setting being stupid, as in people just behaving in totally stupid ways for no reason in order for it to stay cozy, or looking radically different as a result of people using the stuff you put in the world in logical ways, you need to figure out what limitations there are to magic.
>>46913099
>Clergy wizards
Honestly (some) monks being wizards have always made a lot of sense to me.
In real life monks were on of the few groups of people with high rate of literacy and the time to devote to science. You generally see that a lot of the scientists in the medieval era tended to be linked to the clergy in one way or another.
>>46911706
Kings need control, somebody who can levetate a 50 pound bag of wheat can throw a steel ball through your skull, and thats ignoring rebellious types who want to expand into fireballs and shit.
>>46911706
If magic is linked to intelligence, why isnt intelligence increasing magic the most important and sought after?
>>46912229
Found the shitty programmer.
>>46911964
No, if learning to hello world in basic took me five years.
>>46919619
For the low, low price of 18k gp and blowing a wizard with CWI, you can go from drooling retard to genius-level in a day.
>>46912824
To anyone who thinks that answering the question would prove this anon wrong:
You DO realize that not everyone with 11+ Int and has completed high school knows it,right?
This is why I don't like magic in settings based purely on intelligence. It's a mixture of multiple traits, genetics, and spirituality. But I'm the type that gives some minor form of magic (Unknown Armies style, never sure if it works or not) to everyone in the setting, so what do I know.
>>46912022
Master to Student Hedge magicians are great.
>>46911706
I met a nurse the other day that couldn't subtract in her head.
>>46913905
Yes it is, because intelligence includes learned skills. getting better at something makes you more intelligent by definition.
I fluff magic as sort of genetic you are born able to manipulate magic that's not to say you can't learn how to use more powerful spells or more useful enchantments but you have to be born with the innate ability
Add on to that the limitations and natural laws of magic combined with the interference of deities and you get a setting where only a select few can use magic ... at first
In my homebrew setting magic starts off rare with Sorcerer Kings controlling the population with an iron fist skip ahead a few thousand years of mostly stagnation later and some dude discovers what amounts to magi-tech that lets everyone use magic albeit specific spells determined by the device used
Skip ahead a thousand more years and you get a setting that looks like He-Man and Kirby ere Thor/New Gods a lot of magic based tech mixed with a relatively few actual sorcerers
>>46911706
>If magic is linked to intelligence, then it's something that basically anyone can learn
This doesn't necessarily follow.
Intelligence may be necessary, but not sufficient for wizardry.
Take architecture. Architecture skill is linked to intelligence, but it also requires sight.
Wizardry requires a magical sense, like Magery.
In my setting, most people are the magical sense equivalent of Mr. Magoo, effectively blind.
These people could maybe learn a level one spell in their lifetime.
Some people are truly without any sense of magic.
Some can sense perfectly well and just need to learn.
Hence you have magical apprenticeship instead of everyone learning magic equally.
