>>46892825
>Who was your last character you made?
I've actually just gotten to make my first character recently, which is pretty exciting! I've run nWoD before, but never gotten to play a game.

Only problem is, it's for a Mage game, and we're waiting for 2e to come out before we start so that we don't have to teach the other players the game's rules twice. I've got the mortal parts all stated out, and I've got copious notes about the character, but now I have to wait anxiously for the book to come out so I can put on those finishing touches. It's killin' me.

>>46893049
Tell us all!

I haven't made any characters in a while now. It's disappointing.

I really need to run a game, but I'm worried that anything I decide to run won't interest me in six weeks, much less six months. I don't want to run a game that I won't stick with, but I can't think of any good ideas for a game. I really want to run the Changeling 2e stuff, but there's no Hedge rules. Everything else I'm really interested in requires a lot of homebrewing.

I don't want to start a game and then never follow through with running it, or worse, drop it a few sessions in.

>>46893164
It is dangerous, I know these feels. I had a lot of ideas, and I've had so many games fall apart that it is hard to want to follow through.

Even worse, I have past games that went so well that anyone I would run a game for, they are going to remember THOSE games while I run this one. So there is some sort of expectation of greatness, and then you have to start at the start again (which isn't as great as the middle, of course).

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>>46892825
>Who was your last character you made
Another NPC for my Victorian game, a Mastigos Arrow.
Shadow name Clerval, tries to influence various fictional authors.
Currently attempting to promote Horror literature.
Thinks the Exarchs and Seers are trying to pacify humanity.
Through fear, mankind will be forced into strength and will reject their false sense of security.
Secret backer of a couple of Hunter groups.
His dark secret? He's previously created 2 Banishers through attempted forced Awakenings. He killed one, the other escaped.

>>46893203
I have people who hate me talking about how great I am with characters and running games.

I know that when I'm good, I AM good. But actually being able to keep it up is so much of a balancing act that half the time I fall. I've had one successful long term game, and that was the first Geist game I ran. Everything else falls apart.

>>46893128
Sure! Some of the relevant details:

>Name
Amy Lovelace (I know, the name's a little over-the-top; her parents were ridiculous New York yuppies, and I kinda wanted to convey that without having to give her a really stupid first name)

>Path/Order/Etc.
Acanthus in the Sodality of the Tor (with some modifications to the legacy that I've been working out with the storyteller). Probably a Mystagogue or Free Counciller

>Arcana
Fate 2, Time 2, Space 2

>Concept
Newly-awakened young woman who ran away from her a-little-too-perfect-on-the-outside life when she was exposed to the Lie, outright abandoning a number of responsibilities (like her fiancé, for example!). Now she's wandering cross-country, unsure about where to stop or how exactly to start putting down roots again. Her virtue is something along the lines of charity or compassion, and her vice is something like self-centeredness or irresponsibility (still trying to nail these down)—basically, she's a kind person at heart, but she has big trouble accepting her responsibilities and fully acknowledging that how her actions affect other people is just as important as how they affect her.

>Shadow Name
"Cassandra"

You just know her story's gonna be a rough one.

>>46893393
>Amy Lovelace (I know, the name's a little over-the-top; her parents were ridiculous New York yuppies, and I kinda wanted to convey that without having to give her a really stupid first name)

truly there is nothing more over the top than a normal name normal people have

>>46893341
Woah. Spooky. I've also ran one wildly successful WoD game before, and it was the first Geist game I ever ran.

I definitely know the feels you guys are having. I'm trying to plan a game for this summer when my old group is free again (we're all either students or teacher), but the ideas just aren't coming together. I'm trying to nail something down, but it's daunting—I want to choose something that's easy enough for the players to get into, something I'll enjoy running, AND something that'll live up to the legacy of that one great game I ran before.

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>>46893393
>Amy Lovelace (I know, the name's a little over-the-top; her parents were ridiculous New York yuppies, and I kinda wanted to convey that without having to give her a really stupid first name)
Wouldn't Lovelace just be... her last name? I mean, I can see it as a yuppie name, but not really? It's not like surnames are chosen.

That said, I keep wanting to make a Libertine with the Shadowname Lovelace as a reference to Ada Lovelace, widely considered to be the first computer programmer since she wrote an algorithm for the Babbage Analytical Engine.

Lovelace is also the surname Linda Boerman went by when she did porn movies like Deep Throat, the movie about a woman with a clitoris in the back of her throat. And yes, that is the reason the Watergate informant picked the name.

>>46893519
Honestly, I'm tempted to run some dumb one shot. Either a short Hunter game, or even something silly like Tactical Waifu.

>>46893441
Hey, all I'm saying is, even as the guy who came up with it the name sounds kind of Mary Sue to me. I acknowledge that fact.

>>46893509
>Wouldn't Lovelace just be... her last name?
I know. I just couldn't stand to give my character a legitimate yuppie name. I figured picking one that sounded sufficiently like a character from a YA fantasy novel would be good enough.

I did realize the (unintentional) similarity to Ada Lovelace after I named her, though. That might be part of why I'm wavering between her being a Mystagogue and a Libertine.

>>46893573
What even is a yuppie name?

>I did realize the (unintentional) similarity to Ada Lovelace after I named her, though. That might be part of why I'm wavering between her being a Mystagogue and a Libertine.
Will her Mage Sight and Praxis be a Matrixy HACK THE PLANET sort of thing?

>>46893598
Not exactly the direction I was intending, unfortunately. An Ada Lovelace-inspired character would be neat, but it doesn't really jive with the Sodality legacy I'd already had picked out before I even named her.

>What even is a yuppie name?
One of those ridiculous names that you see crop of every so often nowadays. Sometimes it's just a "normal" name with pointlessly weird spelling. Sometimes it's a really special-snowflake name the parents believe is cool, but their kid will probably resent.

Caxton. Brook Lynn. Aymie. La—a (pronounced "La-DASH-a"). Stuff like that.

>>46893680
>One of those ridiculous names that you see crop of every so often nowadays.

I named my child Xybon. It's pronounced "noel" 'cause there ain't no L.

>>46893680
I thought La-Em-Dash-a was a stereotypical black name.
Also, those sound like WASP names. Or Mormon.
http://fox13now.com/2015/01/19/mormons-love-oddball-baby-names-utah-blog-says/

>>46893750
While the result sounds like a Black stereotype name, I'm here to tell you that I can't see a Black person naming their kid La--a, and I've been Black my whole life.

Lets just stick to our Ay Ay rons.

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>>46893747
That's good. I like that.

>>46893750
I don't even know if people use the term "yuppie" anymore, but there's certainly plenty of overlap between WASPs and yuppies.

>>46893813
It's from this http://www.snopes.com/racial/language/le-a.asp

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>>46892825
>Who was your last character you made

VtR2e

Tzimisce Kindred. First Estate. Thought he was a Nosferatu until his Sire told him what's what.

Has a dog ghoul and a Mage thrall. Spends a lot of his time around his haven; a college campus around it.

>>46893906
How did you do Tzimisce in 2e?

>>46893929
Bloodline for Nosferatu or Ventrue and just used one of the billion translations for vicissitude out there tweaked a bit.

That and Malkavian are popping up in this setting; the former for Nos/Vent and the latter for Mek/Daeva. Tzimisce represents Mutability of Body and Malk represents Mutability of Mind.

Higher ups are growing concerned of the "awakening" of these two bloodlines but most of the Kindred folk in the town don't know or don't give two shits currently.

That's all I know tho

Hey, anyone know what level of Spirit spell you would use to raise a Spirit's rank? Or for that matter, what level would a Mind spell be that makes a Goetia's rank higher.

>>46894214
Should be 4, its the example spirit spell. Logically thevsame should be true for mind as well.

>>46894214
Now that is an interesting question. I don't know the answer, but as a conservative st I have certain reservations with the concept.

It seems like if you took the long game, and just used a low level of spirit to keep feeding a low rank spirit essence of a certain type, eventually it should grow big and fat and rank up, right? But I don't have my book in front of me, and I realize now I don't know the normal mechanics for spirit rank ups.

That said, if someone wanted instant gratification spirit ranking, I would wonder immediately where the line is drawn, considering spirits eventually become 'godlike'. It would have to be archmastery or something right? Just so Joe schmoe does make a mote of rage and turn it into a rage god for kicks.

>>46894214
Rank 3? I think it said somewhere in 1e Werewolf that a Spirit with more power than its current rank allows is for the duration of that effect considered higher rank. Therefore, you can use Bolster Spirit and the +1 Reach.

Can't confirm it because I don't know where I read it, though.

>>46894334
In 2e, you can make a Spirit wholecloth and with Reach can make it a level above 1. It's a 5th dot spell, and it has certain requirements, but if you can make it wholecloth, you should be able to boost an existing Spirit.

>>46894334
>>46894517

Remember, increasing Rank doesn't increase Attributes, it only increases their maximum value. You'd need to do the attributes separately. IIRC it's one success per dot added, and something tells me multiple castings won't stack.

And even then, all you'd be doing is making their numbers bigger. Yes, spirits with high stats can get pretty crazy, but spirit GODS are beyond stats. A mage can't make something with numbers into something without.

Well, normal mages, anyway. Archmages probably can. Entities or Dominions fit some of what you're talking about, and if nothing else, 9 dots gives you Transfiguration, which is literally "do whatever the fuck you want."

>>46894535
Original poster here. I'm asking because I'm working with my ST on making a 2nd Ed version oft the Bene Ashmedai Legacy, and we were figuring it'd be good to be able to raise your Vice's rank as an Attainment. Obviously going above 5 is out of the question, though.

>>46894535
>>46894517
Thanks. Good to know.

>>46894214
I feel like waiting a week or two for the book to come out might answer this question for us.

Logically it would be Practice of Perfecting, but beyond that I can't really say.

>>46894606
Oh, sure, adding to Rank in that case would be fine. But it would be far less useful than you'd think. Again, Rank only affects your maximum, not what they'd actually be rolling.

And here I've been posting in the dead thread. Whoops.

So, i've been out of the WoD loop for a while now, and i'm just now trying to get back into it and run a chronicle. I was hoping I could get a few questions answered.

1. The hell is the God Machine Chronicles? I read that it's basically a rules update. IS it any good? Should I learn it?

2. I guess this ties in to the first question a bit, but I recently saw Beast, and became curious. IS it any good? It looks bad ass, but I didn't shell out the cash for it on a whim, most likely because of the first question. Opinions? Is it good? Bad? Meh?

Thanks, for any responses I get. As for the question, I can't remember the last time I got to play WoD, sad I know. Everyone who I game with is on a Pathfinder kick lately, so, it's all hack and slash these days.

>>46894778

nWoD has recently entered a Second Edition starting with The God-Machine Chronicles; Vampire and Werewolf have been updated, while Mage, Promethean, Changeling, and Hunter are on the way. Demon and Beast are already using the new rules. nWoD also recently got rebranded as CofD - the Chronicles of Darkness. The new ruleset makes a lot of changes that are divisive, but are usually liked and easily ignored.

Beast is generally disliked rather severely.

>>46894665
That's going to make figuring out how to make it a useful Attainment complicated, but thanks, good point.
>>46894664
Yeah. I don't think we can really finish this thing before the books out.

>>46894742

You start at Sekhem 10. Once that time window passes, you roll and, if you succeed on the roll, drop to Sekhem 9. Repeat down the chart until you hit 0.

>>46894778
GMC was our introduction to the changes to the settings and rules of second edition, aka the new world of darkness becoming the chronicle of darkness. The GMC itself is like an overall antagonist that explains the general spooky you would see in a mortals game. The God machine is a self preserving magitek nightmare machine that does spooky stuff for reasons no one understands, but mostly to keep up it's own spookiness.

It is worth learning, the rules are generally good, with a few faults (defense is dumb now, for instance).

Beast was not well received, for a variety of reasons I'm sure people will share with you. I wouldn't recommend it.

>>46894857
If you fail? Do you fall faster or what? I haven't looked at mummy.

>>46894836

Really? People hate Beast? I mea, I didn't read through the book myself, the premise just looked cool. Any specifics on it?

I guess I should read the rules update then. Though, no 2e Hunter? Shame, that's one of my favorites. Then again, when it comes to WoD, they're more or less all my favorite, except Changeling. Never really got into that one to be honest. Thanks for the quick reply.

>>46894940
Really, hunter doesn't need much help. The book mortal remains came out when GMC did I think, and it put a band aid on it. It gives you new xp values and some rules updates.

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>>46894905

Failing is a good thing; you stay at your current Sekhem until the amount of time in the rightmost column passes, and then you roll again. Even a single success on the roll drops your Sekhem, so rolling at 10 makes it likely that you'll fall, while Sekhem 1 is much less so.

During a Sothic Tiurn (every 1461 years), you stop having to roll at Sekhem 1 and stay there until you decide to return to rest or are killed.

>>46894940

Beast is a game about playing one of humanity's fears made incarnate, which is a neat premise... but the game was shoddy enough to require a massive rewrite halfway through its Kickstarter that hastily left it as a game without much of an identity. It isn't awful, there's just not much to do with it that isn't done better by other CofD games.

Hunter has rough 2e "patch" rules in the back of Mortal Remains, a fun supplement.

>>46894778
The God-Machine Chronicles was a stopgap rules update from before CCP let them do a proper second edition in the Chronicles of Darkness Rulebook. There are some rules missing from the CofD core rulebook (explosives rules, sample vices, soul loss rules, etc), so I'd advise getting the free GMC rules update and assume CofD supercedes GMC for anything they both mention.

Demon uses the CofD era rules but before the CofD corebook came out, so there are some slight rules hiccups there.

Beast is uhh... not good. It might make for a good badguy splat for your other games, but as a PC splat it suffers from a nasty one-two combo of "what are we supposed to do if this isn't a crossover game", and "if this IS a crossover game, what is the Beast bringing to the table, and considering how fucking evil Beasts are, why are the other playable PC splats hanging out with this guy?"

>>46895039
>>46894993

Thanks for the replies. I guess i'll have to hunt for Mortal Remains and thumb through that too. Maybe one of these days I can get my group to stop fucking off long enough to play something new. Shame about Beast. Oh well, something better will come along, i'm sure.

What level of Arcana do you need to become a spirit/ghost mage/goetia? I'm assuming it doesn't require Archmastery.

>>46895157
You know what they say about assuming.

>>46895171

Why did they make a goetia mage one of the face characters in 2e if it requires Archmastery then?

>>46895157
Become?

Based on 1e, you need Life 4 and then Spirit 4, Death 4, or Mind 4 respectively.

Based on 2e it'd still be 4 dots (for the "change the fundamental nature of a thing" Practice), but I don't know if you'd still need both Life and Mind/Death/Spirit (you might, in that the thing you're changing it TO and the thing you're changing it FROM are under the purviews of two completely different Arcana).

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I'll ask in here before deciding to take it to it's own thread...

Anyone care to help me flesh out my idea for a Bioshock inspired World of Darkness game?

It's primarily going to be mortal/Hunter, but I want to use a lot of ideas from Demon/GMC. An Angel came to a man and showed him how to build a city in some as of yet unspecified Shocky impossible location with a beautiful vista.

The idea is that the city is all 80s/90s cyberpunk inspired instead of the 1940s or 1910 of the Bioshock games. It wasn't my original plan, but the Demon stuff really lends itself to that. I'll probably have the Plasmid/Tonic equivalent be treated as an Endowment, maybe even one that gives the players a few points of an energy stat (because, damnit, I like not using Willpower). Either way, the God-Machine stuff also lends itself to alternate timeline shenanigans.

For how the players get in this city, I could go with either Bioshock's origin: A plane crash, or detectives.

I wonder if a city in space would be a good idea. Just have the lighthouse teleport the party to some city floating in one of the Lagrange points.

>>46895329

Demon Storyteller's Guide has a setting that's the God-Machine's pet cyberpunk city. You may want to read that.

You're using Utopia Now for this, right?

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>>46895363
I'm using the idea of Utopia Now, but not the actual compact. I'll take a look at the STG, but I'm really only going for a cyberpunk aesthetic and feel, not the actual cyberpunk Shadowrun style whatever. Probably with a bit of religious Waco style bent, from the God-Machine aspects.

the plasmid stuff is more likely to be slap patches that make you Stigmatic and give you abilities that are basically Form Powers.

>You probably picked up Demon: The Descent because you like espionage in the classic sense. You were looking forward to something along the lines of Smiley’s People or maybe Sapphire and Steel — quiet, small, but deeply meaningful missions conducted in the shadows of the world. Then one player brought in a character sheet describing a Destroyer who could probably punch out an entire continent — the landmass, not the people on it — and the other players quickly followed suit. Your game just took a turn for the Loud.

I'm finally reading the updated Beast stuff. This new teaching angle feels so.. goofy. Such a weak excuse to make Beasts being awful people slightly less awful, but it doesn't work. You don't need to torture people to help them. You're almost always causing them more harm needlessly.

>>46896295
cont: And this repeated hammering in of Heroes as The Real Bad Guys continues to fall flat. Sorry, OPP, but you just cannot make the guys who endanger themselves to kill your sociopath monsters the villains.

So far, I'm disappointed with this updated version. At least some of the powers are cool.

>>46892825
>Who was your last character you made
I made a bunch of characters. Never got to play them though as the games fell through. Still care enough to know what they are?

>>46896329
>>46896295
The teaching angle is meant to be treated as justification that Beasts use. They're not really important or meaningful to the world anymore, which at least gives it a reason to work towards the "build your family" themes.

I also don't really see that Heroes are The Real Bad Guys. They're villains because they don't realize that they're broken, while most Beasts do. They're also killing your sociopath monsters for THE WRONG REASONS. That's the thing about Heroes. They have a Hero complex. The mind control people into loving them.

Heroes are also more morally ambiguous They're not bad guys out of a desire to be bad guys, they're bad guys out of a desire to be good guys, and they can also be good guys now. It's possible that we'll actually see some positive Hero stuff in the STG.

You can also cure Heroes of their assholishness. And it's made a bit more explicit that people like Sleeping Beauty aren't "zomg, kill the rape victim".

>At least some of the powers are cool
Honestly none of the ones I've seen really interest me. But I've always cared more about the templates than the powers.

>>46896487
>The teaching angle is meant to be treated as justification that Beasts use. They're not really important or meaningful to the world anymore, which at least gives it a reason to work towards the "build your family" themes.

The teaching angle is such blatant self-serving deception that including it at all makes me view Beasts even worse.

>I also don't really see that Heroes are The Real Bad Guys. They're villains because they don't realize that they're broken, while most Beasts do. They're also killing your sociopath monsters for THE WRONG REASONS. That's the thing about Heroes. They have a Hero complex. The mind control people into loving them.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to be loved, adored, or even obeyed. The motivations of Heroes aren't at fault. It's their actions that matter, and those actions include things like "stopping the horrific monsters that get off to torturing everyone around them".

>Honestly none of the ones I've seen really interest me. But I've always cared more about the templates than the powers.

I like the Anakim stuff, mostly.

>>46896514

Beast would've been cool if it was "oh my god, a a living nightmare has crawled inside my head and will make my life a living hell if I don't feed," except Vampire already did that. But even that retread would've been better than "I've actual been an incarnate nightmare my entire life and it feels GREAT to finally be the real me!" That latter approach just makes Beast a game about being a fucking asshole for no reason and that makes Heroes not all that evil for wanting to stop you from stealing expensive things or eating people or being Batman.

The crossover stuff is there because they wanted it in, and none of the actual game bothers to try and work it into the narrative. It never bothers to justify itself.

It's just all so bad, and could've been a thousand times better in oretty much every regard.

>>46896618
What Beast should have been was an unrepentant monster experience. No justifications, no moral qualms. You're preying on the world because that's what you are, a nightmarish predator, and if the world wants to stop you you'll beat it into submission.

There's nothing wrong with games where you're the villain. Vampire manages it fine.

>>46892825
Latest character is a blind medicine man from a dream speaker colony located in the umbra.

The world was crafted using 10 rivers, 9 to give it a fully facsimile of the matrerial and the 10th serves as a catalyst for seekings).

Each river is actually a distinct color and has a substance associated with it; red fire for life, blue crystal for mind, white light for prime, the pink and-oranges-of-sunset water for spirit (the spirit river is what keeps the whole colony from becoming entirely un-tethered from the material world and so it is most like a normal river), and I will come up with more if the character ever gets dots in more spheres.

>>46896514
Heroes also kill Beasts who aren't sociopaths. They also cause more fear and damage through propogating that fear. Gaston is the Ur Hero. A man who is selfish and vain and tells a lie so that he can be the hero, so that he can vanquish the monster, and so that he can get the girl that doesn't even want him.

Fox News and Donald Trump are Heroes. They get stronger the more you fear the monster under the bridge, even if that monster is Sully.

>>46896618
Beasts are, ultimately, still human in many ways. So they make excuses. Vampire does the same thing. Also, I actually think that other than more "build your own powers" bullshit, the crossover stuff is handled best. It's the one theme that makes sense (you are an outcaste and must build your own family), and the one handled the best. It's just that the rest of Beast gets in the way of that.

>>46896647
People complained about the Beasts who were unrepentant monsters the most. And you can completely play it that way.

>>46896701
>Heroes also kill Beasts who aren't sociopaths.
There are vanishingly few Beasts who aren't sociopaths; the ones who aren't still do more harm than good.

>Gaston is the Ur Hero. A man who is selfish and vain and tells a lie so that he can be the hero, so that he can vanquish the monster, and so that he can get the girl that doesn't even want him.
Gaston is the hero of Beauty and the Beast. Not capital H Hero, normal hero. He is the good guy. The Beast is a monster who threatens Belle's father and then imprisons her and psychologically abuses her until she clings to him.

Gaston's mission to murder the fuck out of Beast is the correct mission.

>They get stronger the more you fear the monster under the bridge, even if that monster is Sully.
But Sully is an abomination. Monsters, Inc., prior to the ending, is a movie showing a society of monsters humanity should rightfully inflict genocide on.

>People complained about the Beasts who were unrepentant monsters the most. And you can completely play it that way.
That's a shame. Those would be the best beasts.

>Mage Noir
Can I finally create the character I always wanted?
How can I make a Gravity mage?

>>46896618
>That latter approach just makes Beast a game about being a fucking asshole for no reason
That would have been the best way to do it tbqh

>>46896753
Look, I get that it's de reguerre to point out how Beauty and the Beast is Stockholm Syndrome, but it's still a sort of silly thing to apply real world logic about psychology to a children's movie. Either way, Gaston is a narcissistic chauvinist who's constantly trying to rape Belle, even after repeatedly being turned down. He's no better than Beast, and in fact worse by the fact that he's a sociopathic murderer while the Beast is a lonely NEET who hasn't seen another human since he was ten and got cursed because he didn't want to let a creepy stranger spend the night in his house.

Not only is Gaston doing something terrible (instilling fear in the populace and leading a lynch mob, which is pretty much never the correct mission), he's doing it for terrible reasons (to fuck a girl who repeatedly said she doesn't want to be fucked, much less by him).

Likewise, Sully is not an abomination, and there's no cause for genocide. Spooking people isn't grounds for murder. The Monsters from Monsters, Inc. aren't even as bad as the tamest Beast. Sully is the best spooker and he's basically just going "BOO".

You don't need Heroes to be shining paragons of justice. That would be the worst possible choice.

>>46896810
That is literally what people hated the most about it.

>>46896701
>Fox News and Donald Trump are Heroes

ignoring the rest of your post to emphasise this truth

So if Mages just fuck with the established reality does the God Machine ever take notice and send out Angel Hit Squads?

>>46896856
>That is literally what people hated the most about it.
Its better then
>B-b-but im secretly a good guy and only meanies hate me!

>>46896856

>Either way, Gaston is a narcissistic chauvinist who's constantly trying to rape Belle, even after repeatedly being turned down.
I don't recall him ever trying to rape her. Marry her, yes.

>He's no better than Beast, and in fact worse by the fact that he's a sociopathic murderer while the Beast is a lonely NEET who hasn't seen another human since he was ten and got cursed because he didn't want to let a creepy stranger spend the night in his house.
This is not an accurate representation of Gaston or Beast. Gaston is a local hero for a reason; douchebags do not get adored and envied by doing absolutely nothing useful or helpful or impressive.

>Likewise, Sully is not an abomination, and there's no cause for genocide. Spooking people isn't grounds for murder. The Monsters from Monsters, Inc. aren't even as bad as the tamest Beast. Sully is the best spooker and he's basically just going "BOO".
Monsters, Inc. portrays a society that has chosen to generate power by breaking into the rooms of children and terrorizing them, not to mention explicitly endangering them through the creation of a two-way portal. While Boo was fine in the movie, it is in no way, shape, or form difficult to imagine a more likely scenario where she wanders out and dies to any number of mundane threats. Like a car.

Any society that views your children as acceptable targets for torment is a society you should wipe out. Monsters, Inc. is a grotesque world that goes unacknowledged in its sin due to being bright and shiny and comedic.

>You don't need Heroes to be shining paragons of justice. That would be the worst possible choice.
They don't need to be shining paragons of justice. Heroes can be douchebags. But the choice to annihilate Beasts is always, without exception, the righteous choice, and as such their actions are more likely to be justified and forgiven.

>>46896879
It's less
>B-b-but im secretly a good guy and only meanies hate me!
and more
>At least I'm trying to justify my existence.
Which is a bit more nuanced then either of your descriptions and, you know, fits CofD.

Still not very good but you don't need to make it out to be worse than it actually is.

>>46896701
>Fox News and Donald Trump are Heroes. They get stronger the more you fear the monster under the bridge, even if that monster is Sully.
But the monster isn't Sully in your example. The monster is Scar and his army of hyenas.

>>46896908
>Scaring children means you have to be genocieded
calm down there buddy, it might be shitty but even ignoring the monsters' perspective genocide is a tad extreme

>>46896957
Pedophiles scare children too.

>>46896957
If you were a parent that heard your daughter scream and you threw open the door and saw a grotesque abomination thats almost impossible to comprehend you would want to shove a nuke through that portal too.

>>46896879
But Beasts don't think they're the good guys.
>>46896877
Do you mean in the context of the game, or are you saying the traditional use of the term? I've been hesitant to say "are Heroes" because I'm worried someone will try to take that out of context.

But basically, yeah. I mean, that's why GamerGate was used as an example. And if I understand how the writing process works, by two separate authors. It was a movement about insecurity and fear dressed up in a wrapping of "b-b-but it's about ethics in games journalism!" And it's all about getting people on your side to attack a boogeyman.
This video essay series is good Hero inspiration. Yes, it's about GamerGate, and yes, it starts with an explanation of Anita Sarkeesian. Don't make me regret linking it.
https://youtu.be/6y8XgGhXkTQ?list=PLJA_jUddXvY62dhVThbeegLPpvQlR4CjF

>>46896908
What do you think marrying someone who doesn't want to marry you entails?
Gaston is clearly an asshole, he's just the asshole who gets the most done. If you've ever been to high school, you know damned well that you can be popular and still be a douchebag. It also is a pretty accurate representation of the two of them. Gaston literally wants to murder someone for glory to get the girl who doesn't want him. Beast is literally a 20 year old who wants to be left alone who was cursed when he was 10 for not letting a creepy old woman stay with him.

Boo was also the first time that ever happened, and scaring people is not really grounds for genocide.

>But the choice to annihilate Beasts is always, without exception, the righteous choice, and as such their actions are more likely to be justified and forgiven.
No it isn't. You're not one of those "Hunters are always right, supernaturals all deserve to die" people,. are you?

>>46896945
Not really. Not every Beast is some horrible douchebag who murders wantonly. Many of them can and do indulge their Hunger against people who "deserve" it. MCU's Daredevil is a Beast.

>>46896975
That is literally the kind of argument that gets made for killing transpeople and wanting to bomb the middle east.

Fox News: Best example of Heroes. No wonder minority groups are Beasts; Conservatives are always the ones fearmongering about the Other.

>>46897015
As far as I know trans people dont come into childrens bedrooms at night and scar them for life.
And I never said anything about the middle east but I wont be sad if they managed to kill everyone involved with ISIS if thats what you mean.


>Conservatives are always the ones fearmongering about the Other.
>Implying I am conservative.
The only right wing politics I like is their gun laws and stop injecting politics into this

>>46896957
>calm down there buddy, it might be shitty but even ignoring the monsters' perspective genocide is a tad extreme
No, genocide is perfectly correct. There is a society of inhuman monsters that terrorize your children by breaking into your home (itself legal grounds for killing in many places) to power their lightbulbs.

These giant, monstrous things have such an uncaring attitude toward your race they break into your homes to torture your children.

If Monsters, Inc. weren't a comedy, it would rightfully end with us bombing the hell out of them.

>>46896994
>What do you think marrying someone who doesn't want to marry you entails?
There is no indication Gaston intends to physically force himself upon Belle. Given his narcissism, it is more likely he believes she'll give in if he's dogged enough.

>Gaston is clearly an asshole, he's just the asshole who gets the most done. If you've ever been to high school, you know damned well that you can be popular and still be a douchebag. It also is a pretty accurate representation of the two of them. Gaston literally wants to murder someone for glory to get the girl who doesn't want him. Beast is literally a 20 year old who wants to be left alone who was cursed when he was 10 for not letting a creepy old woman stay with him.
Beast threatens Belle's father and abuses her more than Gaston ever did. Gaston wants to murder a horrible monster that deserves murder.

>Boo was also the first time that ever happened, and scaring people is not really grounds for genocide.
What they're doing is. See above.

>No it isn't. You're not one of those "Hunters are always right, supernaturals all deserve to die" people,. are you?
All supernaturals? No. All Beasts, absolutely. Werewolves and Mages are largely OK, as are Changelings. Most Vampires should be wiped out. Others are on a more case by case basis.

>>46897015
Fox News is actually a Beast, as it spreads fear and terror to the masses and feeds off it to grow in strength

>>46896994
>"b-b-but it's about ethics in games journalism!" And it's all about getting people on your side to attack a boogeyman.
No, it started that way, but became about crushing the encroachment of an unwelcome extremist political ideology of forced equity slithered its way in under the guise of "feminism" and "equality".
Your points in excusing the torment of children are as vacuous as your false-moral politics.

>>46896994
>Being this wrong about Gamer Gate
Ok I am just ignoring you from now on

>>46897015
Get out of here, /pol/.

>>46897043
You're arguing that people's snap judgment to commit genocide should be respected.

>>46897044
Whether they're inhuman monsters or not is not grounds for genocide. Also, I'm pretty sure that at one point Belle actually pushes Gaston away. She also tells him no repeatedly. If it weren't a family movie, he'd have forced himself on her. You can't use the "if not for the rating" excuse one place and then ignore it the other.

>Beast threatens Belle's father and abuses her more than Gaston ever did. Gaston wants to murder a horrible monster that deserves murder.
Gaston is honestly the worse person of the two. Beast does nothing to deserve murder. Doesn't Belle's dad literally give her up, anyway?

>No. All Beasts, absolutely.
Scaring people is not grounds for murder.
Also, Fox News are Heroes. They are literally the kind of behavior that's used to describe Heroes. They want you to get worked up and afraid and trust them and believe they're the voice of reason.

>>46897045
>>46897066
Equity shouldn't be forced in the first place, and equality is not some extremist political ideology. Buying into the notion that women are trying to come take over your men spaces is like buying into the notion that blacks and Muslims are going to rape your women.

>>46897082
>Literally the opposite opinions of /pol/

>>46897097
>Equity shouldn't be forced in the first place, and equality is not some extremist political ideology. Buying into the notion that women are trying to come take over your men spaces is like buying into the notion that blacks and Muslims are going to rape your women.
Can we seriously not turn into /pol/ and just drop this
>>46897097
>You're arguing that people's snap judgment to commit genocide should be respected.
I am arguing that a society that revolves around scaring and mentally disturbing children deserves to be destroyed.

>>46897097
>>Literally the opposite opinions of /pol/
>>>>constantly injecting politics into a discussion that has fuck-all to do with politics
Kill yourself.

>>46897121
That this counts as "Politics" is pretty fucked up, but considering it's an example literally from the book, I'd say that it's pretty related. You just don't agree with the book's political leanings.

>>46897097
>Whether they're inhuman monsters or not is not grounds for genocide. Also, I'm pretty sure that at one point Belle actually pushes Gaston away. She also tells him no repeatedly. If it weren't a family movie, he'd have forced himself on her. You can't use the "if not for the rating" excuse one place and then ignore it the other.
I am not using that excuse selectively. I agreed Boo was not harmed. I said she was endangered, and that is true by virtue of being exposed to harm.

A species that breaks into your private property to torture your children is a species that deserves genocide.

Gaston never attempts to rape Belle.

>Gaston is honestly the worse person of the two. Beast does nothing to deserve murder. Doesn't Belle's dad literally give her up, anyway?
There is no sane view that declares Gaston worse. You have to be actively delusional or just really hate non-furs.

>Scaring people is not grounds for murder.
Torturing people to teach them a lesson, or to get kicks, is grounds for murder, especially when your torture can also be so horrific as to leave them shellshocked and traumatized for ages, if your Horror feeds on them repeatedly.

Beasts have no redeeming qualities. The best of them strive to hurt less, rather than not at all.

>Also, Fox News are Heroes. They are literally the kind of behavior that's used to describe Heroes. They want you to get worked up and afraid and trust them and believe they're the voice of reason.
Fox are Beasts. They feed off inflicting terror, think themselves good, and many, I suspect, bet they're doing a service by teaching people the truth of the world.

>>46897146
>You just don't agree with the book's political leanings.
A good gamebook should keep the politics of the author completely out of it.
I mean I love guns (tfw I live in Ausfalia) but I wouldnt want the firearms chart to start complaining about strict gun laws.

>>46897146
>That this counts as "Politics" is pretty fucked up
You're literally presenting your personal opinion of a HEAVILY debated topic that is politically charged as irrefutable fact on /tg/.
This is against the rules, you dipshit. /pol/ is banned because it starts shitstorms. Not because of the political opinion itself.
>it's an example literally from the book
Then the creators are dipshits as well who pander specifically to people like you. It's a poor business decision, and it was a poor business decision when Eclipse Phase did it.
That doesn't give you license to bitch about your political enemies on this board. Now drop it.

>>46897147
>Fox are Beasts. They feed off inflicting terror, think themselves good, and many, I suspect, bet they're doing a service by teaching people the truth of the world.
You're just as bad as that other faggot. Stop.

>>46897207
>You're just as bad as that other faggot. Stop.
Blow me, cunt.

>>46897226
Kill yourself, shithead. This is not the board for presenting your leftist ideology as the "default" opinion for the world.
If you want to do that, there's another board just for you.

>>46897147
Beasts don't think themselves good. Again, they are LITERALLY THE KIND OF PEOPLE DESCRIBED AS HEROES. And yes, the things that Gaston wants to do could very easily be described as rape. In no world is a lynching the reasonable reaction to... anything, really. But even worse when you're doing it to get with a girl who doesn't want you.
Gaston is clearly shown to be a chauvanistic asshole. The narrative reinforces the fact that he's the bad guy. Literally the 'correct' way to view the movie is that Gaston is worse than the Beast. Even if you do consider the Beast a terrible person who psychologically abused Belle (which is honestly a stretch) and not a lonely teenager, Gaston still wanted to unlawfully murder him without a fair trail.

>>46897182
No it shouldn't. A game should have whatever politics its author wants. Several games do. Everything is political to begin with. Politics are baked into the mechanics of many games. The go to example is Civilization, which defines that Civilizations are good, and anyone not part of them is the "barbarian" rabble, and also makes judgements on what a "good" Civilization has.

>>46897185
>Poor business decision
It made $116,383 before it was even released. And that was a version people disliked.

But that doesn't even matter, because the point is that is what Heroes are: They're people who want praise and attention and feel that if they murder the monster they'll get it, whether the monster really deserves it or not.

>>46897097
>Literally the opposite opinions of /pol/
/pol/ is a board for the discussion of politics. This board is not for the discussion of politics.

>>>/pol/

>>46897258
Reality has a well known liberal bias, and that's true in the World of Darkness as well. That's not people in the thread saying that, it's the authors saying it. The author's ideology IS the "default" opinion for the game.

>>46897273
Then quit fucking discussing politics when I'm trying to talk about a fucking game and you're bitching that something that has nothing to do with the commonly accepted sphere of political discourse is politics.

>>46897266
>In no world is a lynching the reasonable reaction to... anything, really.
In a small town with no law enforcement, and indeed in any small farming community without an established governing body, lynching was in-fact the ONLY response to injustice or crime.

>>46897258
>Kill yourself, shithead. This is not the board for presenting your leftist ideology as the "default" opinion for the world.
I am not a leftist. Keep your retarded assumptions silent. Retards are meant to be seen, not heard.

>>46897266
>Beasts don't think themselves good.
Sure they do.
>And yes, the things that Gaston wants to do could very easily be described as rape. In no world is a lynching the reasonable reaction to... anything, really. But even worse when you're doing it to get with a girl who doesn't want you.
Lynching is a reasonable reaction to many things, such as kidnapping a woman and abusing her after threatening her father.

>Gaston is clearly shown to be a chauvanistic asshole. The narrative reinforces the fact that he's the bad guy. Literally the 'correct' way to view the movie is that Gaston is worse than the Beast. Even if you do consider the Beast a terrible person who psychologically abused Belle (which is honestly a stretch) and not a lonely teenager, Gaston still wanted to unlawfully murder him without a fair trail.
The law does not cover inhuman monsters set apart from society; the law is for people and the dumb animals we generously deign to protect. If the movie calls Gaston the bad guy, the movie is wrong.

It is wrong, by the way. Many Disney movies are wrong. BatB is wrong in that it romanticizes abuse.

>>46897287
>Reality has a well known liberal bias
Now you're just flouting the board's rules. Good job.
>and that's true in the World of Darkness as well. That's not people in the thread saying that, it's the authors saying it. The author's ideology IS the "default" opinion for the game.
If WoD as a setting is inherently leftist by intention, then maybe all lore threads concerning it should be directed towards 4chan's politics board.

huh. how do nephilim compare to the other kinds of demon offspring?

>>46897288
First off, that doesn't make it right. Second off, I don't care what the song says, Belle's town is huge.
https://youtu.be/ovhdfa1sUoM
You even see a guy in the stocks, which means that there IS law enforcement. They have a fucking bookstore and infrastructure and a marketplace. The center of the village is a giant fountain that requires some sort of waterworks. This is not some little farming village, Belle is just romanticizing everything.
https://youtu.be/ovhdfa1sUoM

>>46897301
Lynching is not a reasonable reaction. That's why it's against the law pretty much everywhere there are laws. And Beast also IS a human being. Even then, whether a sentient being that isn't human is protected by the law or not is a subject that should be given more thought than "no, kill them, they're not like us".
In fact, that's the same argument used in
You're literally arguing that the movie romanticizes abuse while calling a man who tries to force himself on a woman who repeatedly rejected his advances the good guy. Like... you don't get to murder someone's boyfriend because they won't sleep with you.

Belle went to be with the Beast of her own free will. She constantly tries to get away from Gaston, and rewatching this scene legitimately seems afraid of him. https://youtu.be/V1FTtqtapRk
So tell me how this guy is the hero?

>>46897302
>I don't agree with the author's worldview, so maybe it belongs on a different board
Or you could not play the game and leave the thread.

>>46897443
>Lynching is not a reasonable reaction.
Yes it is.

>And Beast also IS a human being.
Beast it not human until after the curse is broken.

>Even then, whether a sentient being that isn't human is protected by the law or not is a subject that should be given more thought than "no, kill them, they're not like us".
A sentient non-human is not protected by the law. Maybe they should be! That's a separate discussion entirely.

>You're literally arguing that the movie romanticizes abuse while calling a man who tries to force himself on a woman who repeatedly rejected his advances the good guy. Like... you don't get to murder someone's boyfriend because they won't sleep with you.
Gaston is an asshole. He is also the good guy.

>Belle went to be with the Beast of her own free will.
Coerced free will. Forget Belle's father? If I threaten to kill your loved ones unless you suck my dick, you sucking my dick isn't of your own free will.

>She constantly tries to get away from Gaston, and rewatching this scene legitimately seems afraid of him.
Yes, Belle does not like Gaston. She also doesn't like the Beast until he breaks her.

>So tell me how this guy is the hero?
Beast is an abusive, kidnapping, life-threatening monster that destroys and ruins with abandon. He takes a woman coercively and then breaks her mind with isolation and abuse until she clings to him.

Gaston wants to kill that monster. It is an unambiguously good act.

>>46897443
>That's why it's against the law pretty much everywhere there are laws
There are plenty of unreasonable laws

>>46897532
At the risk of a controversial political opinion
>Don't murder people without so much as making sure they deserve to be murdered
Is not an unreasonable law.

>>46897562
Not disagreeing with you exactly but by saying something is reasonable just because its a law is kind of silly.

I'm 26 years old and watching Beauty and the Beast because of internet arguments. I have no life.

Also, how is there not a Dark Era for Beast set in France?

>>46897679
you should watch it. Its a good ass movie

>>46897706
It's not like I haven't seen it. It's just not one of the Disney Movies that I'll rewatch, like Aladdin.

Beast isn't actually a Beast, though. He's cursed by a True Fae. He has a Seeming and Kith, but no Mask. The Mirror is a Token.
Or I suppose a really dickish high Gnosis Mage who just felt like cursing someone.

I mean, he's shown as a teen in the intro, but if you do the math he's like ten.

>>46897679
Yeah, it is good. Gaston's the hero and it romanticizes abuse, but it's still a pretty movie with fun songs.

>>46897729
Oh drop it. At least until I've finished watching it and can better point out that you're wrong. Have you actually even seen the movie? I've even seen the midquel where Belle teaches Beast the meaning of Christmas.

It involves Tim Curry as an evil pipe organ who wants to keep Beast from falling in love because he likes being Beast's confidante to the point that he wants to keep the castle cursed. When he fails, he tries to bring the castle down with SONG.
Yes, it's as dumb as it sounds, and none of it is ever mentioned again and the castle is fixed by January.
https://youtu.be/69lp8Ij4K-4

>>46896879
>Does the god machine

If you want it to in your game, yeah. The actions of the GM would be interesting for a mage, for a lot of reasons. It is pretty mysterious.

>>46898048
there is no lore written down of Mages interacting with Angels? Or Demons?

>>46897871
>Have you actually even seen the movie?
I've seen every Disney movie except a few of the more recent ones.

>>46898130
I don't read all the lore, so no idea really.

>>46898203
The argument that Beast is an abuser in the Disney version is ridiculously unfounded. Meanwhile, Gaston wants to throw Maurice in the mental asylum unless Belle marries him. You were also going on about how it's reasonable to genocide the monsters from Monsters, Inc. because they all commit trespassing, but by your logic, Maurice and Belle get off pretty easily.
She also isn't really even being held against her will. After the first night, she tries to leave. Beast saves her from the wolves and she goes back to the castle and tends to him and they celebrate Christmas and there's singing and he tries to woo her. There's not even any screaming and shouting.

Also the time frame of this movie is completely fucked. Like, Belle was with Beast for weeks at least, yet when she looks at the magic mirror, Maurice is still looking for her in the woods, even though if he went back home Gaston would have sent him to the loony bin. And apparently LeFou stayed there the whole time.

Gaston also doesn't go running off to save Belle. Belle shows the town the Beast with the magic mirror to prove that her father isn't crazy instead of marrying Gaston. Gaston immediately tells the town that no one will be safe until the Beast's head is mounted on his wall, and that it will make off with their children and wives. Gaston is a Hero. Not a traditional heroic hero, a capital H from Beast Hero. His reaction to not getting what he want is to get a mob worked up with lies and then kill something. The Mob Song is literally just Gaston deciding to kill The Beast without any reason. The lyrics are even about how they don't understand it but it's evil.

This is literally the prototypical Hero. Not a good guy.
https://youtu.be/ZEvsv6fbtEQ [Embed]

>>46896972
Pedophiles do a lot more than just scare children dipshit.

>>46896975
Immediate reaction and logical decision I'd actually make in the time it would take me to actually do anything near the scale of genocide are 2 very different things, if for no other reason than I don't have Forces 8 and can't nuke shit on impulse.

>>46897044
Scaring children =! torturing children. Shit they don't even do that by the end of the movie when they realize laughter is better and children aren't themselves monsters.

>He literally admits he's doing it because Belle loved Beast
https://youtu.be/x2xgF7BgMvw
This is totally justified, though, guise.

As an aside, this French village has an astounding number of gingers.

>>46898609
>The argument that Beast is an abuser in the Disney version is ridiculously unfounded
You are utterly deluded. Beast imprisons and threatens her father, and leverages him to keep Belle. This is kidnapping. This is inherently abusive behavior. He then proceeds to yell at her when she displeases him, isolate her from all her friends and family, and keep her constantly unsure and afraid.

>Meanwhile, Gaston wants to throw Maurice in the mental asylum unless Belle marries him. You were also going on about how it's reasonable to genocide the monsters from Monsters, Inc. because they all commit trespassing, but by your logic, Maurice and Belle get off pretty easily.

They do more than trespass. They trespass with the sole intent of tormenting children. A very important facet you conveniently neglected to acknowledge.

>She also isn't really even being held against her will.
Yes, that's what we refer to as Stockholm Syndrome.

>Gaston also doesn't go running off to save Belle. Belle shows the town the Beast with the magic mirror to prove that her father isn't crazy instead of marrying Gaston. Gaston immediately tells the town that no one will be safe until the Beast's head is mounted on his wall, and that it will make off with their children and wives. Gaston is a Hero. Not a traditional heroic hero, a capital H from Beast Hero. His reaction to not getting what he want is to get a mob worked up with lies and then kill something. The Mob Song is literally just Gaston deciding to kill The Beast without any reason. The lyrics are even about how they don't understand it but it's evil.

Killing the Beast is the correct action. Beast imprisoned and threatened Belle's father and then did the same to her. That she eventually broke and fell in love with him doesn't make it alright.

>>46898664
>Scaring children =! torturing children.

Breaking into a child's room night after night to torment them and vanish, so no one will believe what's going on, is torture.

>>46898697
cont:

It's weird as hell to see people defending Beast and the monsters from Monsters, Inc. Jesus christ you'd all make terrible parents and people in general.

File: Beast.png (1 MB, 1163x686) Image search: [Google]

1 MB, 1163x686

>>46898697
I literally just watched the movie. The Beast is an impulse teenager with anger management issues, but that's about as far as his abusiveness goes. As an aside, considering that the first time someone from the outside world intrudes on The Beast's sanctity, it results in a literal lynch mob coming to murder him (AND his staff), there's quite a good reason to keep Maurice prisoner.

But just in general, that's not how Stockholm Syndrom even works, and the Beast is never actually abusive to Belle. Which, again, I literally just got finished watching the movie. The credits were rolling when I started this post.

http://beeftony.tumblr.com/post/58658859148/why-beauty-and-the-beast-is-not-about-stockholm
There's also this rebuttal to the argument in general.

Gaston literally bribes a government official to blackmail someone into marrying him, then when he finds out she loves someone else, his first reaction is to try to MURDER that person. He also imprisons Belle himself, and in a cellar no less.

The only thing that keeps Belle imprisoned by the Beast is that she promised. She was under no real obligation other than her own morality. Being yelled at by an angry teenager is not abuse, it's an angry antisocial teenager being exactly the kind of person you'd expect someone who's been horribly disfigured and cloistered from society to act.

>>46898808
>But just in general, that's not how Stockholm Syndrom even works, and the Beast is never actually abusive to Belle. Which, again, I literally just got finished watching the movie. The credits were rolling when I started this post.
So imprisoning her and deliberately withholding food from her is not abusive?

Kidnapping her is not abusive?

You've got a weird definition of abuse. A definition sufficiently weird that I'm comfortable calling you a liar ignoring the abuse to try and win an argument with me.

Either that, or you really suck at watching movies and missed that.

>There's also this rebuttal to the argument in general.
It's insufficient a rebuttal.

>Gaston literally bribes a government official to blackmail someone into marrying him, then when he finds out she loves someone else, his first reaction is to try to MURDER that person. He also imprisons Belle himself, and in a cellar no less.
That person being an evil abusive monster, yes. Murdering him is the correct answer. As is locking Belle and Maurice up, as Belle intended to endanger herself trying to save the monster.

Gaston is the good guy of that film. You don't see it because you sympathize with Belle and the Beast, overlooking the Beast's monstrous behaviors and Belle's own fragile psyche breaking.

>>46898856
>It's insufficient a rebuttal.
It's 1764 words. I'm pretty sure you didn't even read it.

Beast also didn't kidnap Belle.

And you're sympathizing with a self-centered official-bribing rapist who fomented a lynch mob and held a woman and her father against their will so that he could go murder her new boyfriend. Meanwhile Beast yelled at her once because he was a petulant NEET and then scared her when he got pissed that she might have damaged the magical rose that literally determines the fate of his life and the life of every servant in the castle.

I literally just finished watching the movie. It is fresh in my mind. I'm in a pretty good position to judge the movie, since I'm guessing you haven't seen it in years.

>>46898935
>It's 1764 words. I'm pretty sure you didn't even read it.
I'm sorry you read like a snail moves, but that doesn't apply to all of us. The rebuttal insists Stockholm is uninvolved due to a lack of initial romantic context, justifies the Beast's behavior because he's a socially maladjusted cursed 21 year old, and asserts that while Beast's actions are reminescent of abusers it's actually rooted in his ignorance of hospitality and that Belle falls in love with him because he makes grand gestures to improve and internalizes the fact he was a dick.

None of this changes the fact he kidnapped her, tried to starve her, locked her up, made her fear for her life, and she only softened up toward him when he saved her life from a dangerous, potentially lethal situation she was only in because of his behavior in the first place.

It is insufficient a rebuttal.

>Beast also didn't kidnap Belle.
Yes he did. That is the word you use for trading your father's life for a girl to stay in your rape palace.

>And you're sympathizing with a self-centered official-bribing rapist who fomented a lynch mob and held a woman and her father against their will so that he could go murder her new boyfriend.
Gaston is an asshole. I do not deny that. He just happens to be an asshole who was right in wanting the Beast dead, and right to lock Belle and her father up so that they wouldn't interfere.

>Meanwhile Beast yelled at her once because he was a petulant NEET and then scared her when he got pissed...

Kidnapping, imprisonment, starvation, isolation, the threat of violence, threatening her loved ones..

>I literally just finished watching the movie. It is fresh in my mind. I'm in a pretty good position to judge the movie, since I'm guessing you haven't seen it in years.

So you're just bad at watching movies. I appreciate the integrity you have admitting that.

>>46899003
>Yes he did. That is the word you use for trading your father's life for a girl to stay in your rape palace.
You've argued that Gaston--who bribed a city official so he could blackmail Belle when she refused his proposal, and also tried to murder the competition--isn't a rapist, but apparently the Beast is?

You're really stretching the Beast's crimes while ignoring Gaston's.

>>46897266
>The go to example is Civilization, which defines that Civilizations are good, and anyone not part of them is the "barbarian" rabble, and also makes judgements on what a "good" Civilization has.
Please stop just straight-up parroting youtube videos like it's insightful, Aspel.

Beast the Primordial's focal conflict is based on half-baked literature study. Bringing in other real world topics and real world media is pointless because Beast reflects none of them.

Aspel, you really have to stop these arguments where you try to defend games you don't even like on the basis of things the game doesn't even support or model. We certainly don't need tired, entry level film study discussion about Disney movies. Shame on you, and shame on the people who are taking the bait with their own tired, entry level film study discussion about Disney movies.

>>46899074
I don't hate Beast.
>Bringing in other real world topics and real world media is pointless because Beast reflects none of them.
We're literally talking about the inspiration for the game, other than Matt wanting to make a game about scaring people.

>>46897097
>If it weren't a family movie, he'd have forced himself on her.
I honestly feel like Gaston's own ego wouldn't have permitted him to have sex with an unwilling woman.

He's excited by Belle because he sees her as a challenge.

>>46899048
>You've argued that Gaston--who bribed a city official so he could blackmail Belle when she refused his proposal, and also tried to murder the competition--isn't a rapist, but apparently the Beast is?
Neither of them raped Belle. I called it a Rape Palace. There are only so many motivations behind imprisoning pretty young girls in your castle.

>You're really stretching the Beast's crimes while ignoring Gaston's.
No, Beast is the only one who actually harmed people. Gaston was a persistent douchebag, but he did not harm Belle.

>>46899190
I don't see why he wouldn't. He was willing to use blackmail, murder, and kidnapping.

>>46899205
>There are only so many motivations behind imprisoning pretty young girls in your castle.
Desperately trying to fall in love so that your curse will be broken before it becomes permanent?

Rape would not have helped him achieve his actual goal, and he knows this.

>>46899206
>I don't see why he wouldn't. He was willing to use blackmail, murder, and kidnapping.

The only time he kidnapped someone was when they were demonstrably insane and putting themselves in danger.

The only person he tried to murder was a monster who deserved to be murdered.

>>46899222
Rape covers more than leaping out of the bushes and physically forcing yourself on someone. Threatening a young girl's father and coercing her into being trapped in your house while you starve and terrorize her, hoping to compel her into a relationship, would absolutely make any and all sex rape.

By the way, you know what else doesn't help the goal of falling in love with a girl? Kidnapping, starving, and threatening her. Unless it's a Disney movie that romanticizes abuse and Stockholm Syndrome, anyway.

>>46899206
Because the idea of having to physically force himself on her rather than finally winning by having her invite him to have her would be a severe blow to his own ego.

A Real Man's Man like Gaston has the women throwing themselves at him. Even the ones who were blowing him off at first. By most definitions of masculinity, including the old-timey chauvanistic ones, having to resort to rape makes you a failure as a man.

Are there more information about Helios? An idea for my chronicles of darkness fantasy campaign (With hisil spirits as gods) was a "sun church". The only thing I found:

"Helios was, and is, too jealous to let his worshippers honor anyone but himself.

>>46899104

I didn't say hate. "Not liking" doesn't mean hating. You don't like the game nearly enough to justify this kind of defense. Even the "whatever, I'm having fun" we get from the anons that play Beast is at least a genuine argument. You just seem like you're going to bat this hard for the game in the name of 4chan contraryism.

You can retread the same Fridge Logic back and forth with the other anons you like, but that doesn't change that for all that inspiration the book claims it has, very little of it actually shows up in the text proper. The only reason Matt every brought up Gaston in the first place is because someone else brought it up at the GenCon panel that announced it, and he ran with it later on RPGnet. The example Heroes barely have anything to do with the grandiose blowhard Gaston besides a power to create mobs, and maybe the low-keyed ambitions of Thaddeus Pearson. This goes for Beasts as well, by the way, all their doings are less about creating the terrifying legends of myth and more about shallow, petty cruelties. That's the fatal flaw with Beast, one that I don't think any of its creators saw coming or that any suppliment can solve: it's a game with epic ambitions and epic powers that refuses to be anything above street level in scope.

>>46899205
>Repeatedly tried to G-rated force himself on her
>Schemed to lock her father up in an insane asylum
>Threatened to blackmail her
>Legitimately kidnapped her, not even getting her to agree to stay
>Tries to kill the man she loves
>Didn't harm her

>>46899222
There's also "not letting people from the outside world know about your enchanted castle because they might kill you and everyone you know". Which, you know, turned out to be a good reason to not let people from the castle leave.

It's honestly no different than Mages or Werewolves killing someone to keep them from breaking the Masquerade. Honestly, the whole thing was basically a snap decision by the Beast because what the fuck else is he going to do?

>>46899253
"Not wanting to marry you" isn't insane. Gaston was well aware that Belle loved Beast. He even mentions it when he tries to kill Beast.
>Threatening a young girl's father and coercing her into being trapped in your house while you starve and terrorize her, hoping to compel her into a relationship, would absolutely make any and all sex rape.
Kind of like blackmailing someone into marrying you? Beast "starved" and "Terrorized" Belle for all of one day. And it's not to abuse her into loving him, but because he literally doesn't know how to people.

>>46899258
I don't see how it would be any more of a blow than having to resort to blackmail in the first place. Gaston strikes me as one of those "oh come on, that's not rape!" football bros.
I mean, look at this scene https://youtu.be/V1FTtqtapRk
He clearly doesn't realize that Belle isn't into him and wants him to stop.

As an aside, unrelated to Gaston being a Hero, I'm pretty sure he's a virgin and he's not going after the three chicks because he's afraid they'll realize he has a tiny dick or is bad at sexing.

>>46899323
>"Not wanting to marry you" isn't insane. Gaston was well aware that Belle loved Beast. He even mentions it when he tries to kill Beast.
Wanting to save your monstrous abuser is insane. Gaston locking her up is for her own good and morally righteous there. She's not in her right mind.

>Kind of like blackmailing someone into marrying you? Beast "starved" and "Terrorized" Belle for all of one day. And it's not to abuse her into loving him, but because he literally doesn't know how to people.
Yes, Gaston is an asshole. He's not a good person. He's the good guy of the story. The hero. He's not nice; he's just not the kidnapping abusive monster.

>As an aside, unrelated to Gaston being a Hero, I'm pretty sure he's a virgin and he's not going after the three chicks because he's afraid they'll realize he has a tiny dick or is bad at sexing.

Shaming the sexually inexperienced or poorly endowed isn't very progressive. It's rather at odds with the tone you've taken this whole time. Should probably avoid it.

>>46899317
This is solid criticism of Beast and completely accurate. The game has no idea what it wants to do. It revels in pettiness, which would be fine if it didn't simultaneously present itself as a grand deconstruction of the Hero's Journey and our cultural associations with Heroes, Beasts, and stories.

Beast is a game where you're an Otherkin and an asshole, you stalk other supers and mouthbreathe on them like the kid from Hey Arnold, and then fall asleep and travel through the shadow realm where Yugi banishes all the naughty people who suck at children's card games going "hardy har i'm a dragon".

It's all dumb as hell. Beast's sole saving grace is that some of the powers are cool, so you could tweak the fluff and game intentions at your own table and run with some actually cool monsters.

>>46899317
I'm defending an aspect of the game that I don't see as a problem. Although really at this point I'm arguing about a Disney movie.

The Hero/Beast relationship is one of the few interesting parts of the game. Also, the three sample Heroes aren't like Gaston, but the general attitude of how Heroes work is. They're the Hero Complex. They hype up a problem so that everyone thinks they're awesome when they solve it.

>>46899358
"It's for their own good" is abuser talk. That's how abusers justify imprisonment. Your argument seems to boil down to it being okay when Gaston does the same thing as the Beast or worse because he's human. He's literally a kidnapping abuser (he even threatens Belle's family!) but he's 'human'. That's one of the morals of the story, the way that people are Othered. The composer actually died of AIDS, and that's a thing he said about the movie. That it's all about how society Others people and punishes them for being different.

Also, saying that someone is ashamed of their own inexperienced isn't shaming them for it. But at this point I don't expect nuance from you.

>>46899415
Honestly, "Beasts think they're grand monsters of legend, but really they're petty" is a good theme. It shows up a few times. It even shows up in the Fiction Anthology. It's also the Mummy quote everyone loves.

>>46899317
>The only reason Matt every brought up Gaston in the first place is because someone else brought it up at the GenCon panel that announced it, and he ran with it later on RPGnet. The example Heroes barely have anything to do with the grandiose blowhard Gaston besides a power to create mobs, and maybe the low-keyed ambitions of Thaddeus Pearson.
So who the fuck ARE Heroes supposed to be inspired by?

>>46899415
>It revels in pettiness, which would be fine if it didn't simultaneously present itself as a grand deconstruction of the Hero's Journey and our cultural associations with Heroes, Beasts, and stories.
This is one of my biggest issues with it, yeah. The text seems completely unaware of this.

>>46899465
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_syndrome

Also GamerGate

>>46899457
>"It's for their own good" is abuser talk. That's how abusers justify imprisonment. Your argument seems to boil down to it being okay when Gaston does the same thing as the Beast or worse because he's human.
It's also the talk of people doing things for someone's own good. The context of Beast and Gaston's imprisonment is different; Beast did it to punish and hurt. Gaston did it to keep a crazed woman out of the way.

You can't compare them.

>Also, saying that someone is ashamed of their own inexperienced isn't shaming them for it. But at this point I don't expect nuance from you.
And I don't expect progressivism from you. I just like busting people's balls when they give off that vibe.

>>46899465
>So who the fuck ARE Heroes supposed to be inspired by?
Gamergate. The intention was for Heroes to straight up be MRAs.

Fingers crossed for good news re Mage 2e and The Pack today.

>>46899315

>>46899315
There's a bit more in Forsaken 2e and, I think, in Predators 1e?

>>46899457

>The Hero/Beast relationship is one of the few interesting parts of the game. Also, the three sample Heroes aren't like Gaston, but the general attitude of how Heroes work is. They're the Hero Complex. They hype up a problem so that everyone thinks they're awesome when they solve it.

Except, aside from that basic, surface summary, there's nothing there to their relationship. Like, yes the idea is that Heroes hype up their doings but are ultimately indulging in self-aggrandizing cruelty, but that doesn't mean anything when Beasts do the same thing with little acknowledgement by the game itself. You can't have an enemy where the message is "but really, they're not so hot" when that's the only enemy of note in the game! The Beast/Hero conflict is compelling on paper and certainly worth defending in theory, but in practice it's that one Achewood comic where Phillipe attempts to write a mystery novel. That Beast takes the Hero and Monster narrative, a field of lit rife with heady moral grayness and symbolic code, and just flips their positions on the stadium is infuriating to see from a game company that was otherwise on a hot streak. How Beast exists as it is when the fantastic essays in Slasher exist is beyond me.

And yes, "you claim to be hot shit but you're not" would at least be a theme with meat (it already exists with Heroes as we can see), if the book was actually interested in that being a theme. That it only appears in post KS draft content is disheartening.

>>46899415

Again, so much of that comes from Beast feeling like it has to be confined to street level play. You can't really be a monster in the physical realm because a Dragon stumbling around the city makes too much news. You can't let your deluded Hero get too big or too powerful without shattering the "world outside your window, except darker" feeling of the CofD. Anything that COULD be larger in scope isn't actually in the core, just other CofD books it expects you to have.

>>46899621

Same! I'm hoping for an exciting Wednesday this week.

>>46899762
>You can't really be a monster in the physical realm because a Dragon stumbling around the city makes too much news.
The funny thing is, unless I'm dramatically misreading Atavisms, Beasts are actually profoundly unsubtle as it is and their Masquerade seems incredibly unlikely.

They can straight breathe fire, demolish buildings, and stop cars in their tracks without getting hurt, and unlike Werewolves or Vampires they have no Lunacy or control of the media to suppress that.

They should have just gone balls deep and made a game about being primal monstrosities that flaunt the typical secrecy rules of the line. The eldest of horrors awakened to the world again, terrifying and tempting to the other creatures.

>>46899621
Don't taunt us, Chris.

>>46899735
Mostly we work on the 'Helios is the jealous gay lover of Father wolf' theory. It works for most stuff.

>>46899827

I believe that the masquerade for them, so to speak, is their general rareness and a kind of herd immunity from being so close to other supernaturals.

>>46899942
I suppose. But they're still so.. obvious.

>>46899827
doesn't the god-machine uphold the masquerade on behalf of everyone these days? like the technocracy in oWoD, it has a blanket fiat to keep the supernatural under wraps whatever form it takes, and enough power to enforce it.

>>46900011

True, but Nightmares tend to be so "subtle" and so utility focused that Atavisms seem more like a panic button than something that's regularly used.

>>46900064
>doesn't the god-machine uphold the masquerade on behalf of everyone these days? like the technocracy in oWoD, it has a blanket fiat to keep the supernatural under wraps whatever form it takes, and enough power to enforce it.
That's a workable solution, yeah. I don't think that's ever stated anywhere but it works as an all-purpose across the line coverup.

>>46900070
God, Nightmares. Some Atavisms are bullshit, but it's the Nightmares that get me.

Whoever made the Beast powers clearly wanted them to curbstomp god damn everything.

>>46900064

Nope! In fact, it had no idea what to even do with Supernaturals most of the time. Its attempts at Supernatural Infrastructure are rare, shatter easily, and are just generally too much of a hassle to monitor and control with Angels. This is why the vast majority of Infrastructure deals with Mortals.

>>46900064
They wouldn't know that though. So most creeps should still have their own ideas of how to stay quiet. On top of that, in pretty sure the god-machine works in mysterious ways, and who knows when it may want a temporary 'vampires are real' panic for the sake of an infrastructure, just to let the vampires clean it up themselves so it doesn't have to waste the energy to do so.

>>46900099

That reminds me of this post: http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/beast-the-primordial-aa/842010-beasts-overpowered-try-underpowered

>>46900130
Then surely it WOULD put effort into maintaining a Masquerade, to keep humans and supernaturals separate so it doesn't have to deal with them.

>>46900099
Beast is part of the Mummy, Demon power creep.

How am I supposed to play competitive wod if the game is so unbalanced? We need a ban list.

(Side note, OP, I would totally play a cofd skirmish game. At least give us a card game again!)

>>46900181
That post made me laugh. Definitely don't agree with anything it says. Hell, check this:

>Now, we come to the last category. Combat. There's several things we need to cover before we even talk in any depth about the matter. First, we need to assume that the Beast is going to have Low Satiety. Not only are the majority of combat powers Atavisms, and thus more effective, but High Satiety characters lose their Lair as a bonus to resist magical effects.

No way, man. A combat Beast will probably have some nice Atavisms, but the real murder comes from spamming Behold, My True Form! with You Can't Wake up and dealing double digit levels of irresistible Lethal damage every single action.

>>46900259
I agree with the sentiment and I'm in no way defending the previous forum post, but Nightmares still require touch and/or meeting the target's gaze. The latter's definitely the more reasonable option against supernaturals, but even then it could be dicey.

When do the monday meeting notes come out? I can't wait to have my hopes for a Mage 2e release dashed again.

>>46900444
Probably in about 8 hours. Maybe 10 if they're feeling really late.

>>46900422
>The latter's definitely the more reasonable option against supernaturals, but even then it could be dicey.
Even supernaturals have no reason whatsoever to think something bad is happening by meeting a random person's gaze, especially when that person has the power to appear to be one of them and makes a good first impression by default.

By the time they realize anything has happened, even most health-loaded werewolves will be dead.

Behold, My True Form + You Can't Wake up is basically an instant kill on anything provided your pool is good. It's disgusting.

>>46899512
>>So who the fuck ARE Heroes supposed to be inspired by?
>Gamergate. The intention was for Heroes to straight up be MRAs.
Heroes were actually just inspired by the more savage heroes of yesteryear (hercules, beowulf, etc)

>>46900484
Those are listed examples, but actual Heroes don't match up to them at all in motivation, portrayal, or narrative role.

Heroes are Gamergate. It bleeds through everything.

>>46900468
Mage sight. Also Time shenanigans.

>>46900585
Peripheral Sight just tells the Mage that SOMETHING is happening. How do they find out what? Focused sight. i.e., staring at the source of the phenomenon really hard.

Which is exactly what the Beast is trying to get them to do in the first place.

>>46900585
I don't actually know enough about Mages to discuss them or their counters.

I was looking over Nightmares again. Funny combination:

Behold, My True Form + Fear is Contagious. Set BmTF to activate when they next sleep and spend 1 Satiety on Fear is Contagious. BmTF now spreads to everyone the target speaks with, fights with, or otherwise meaningfully interacts with during the day.

That night, they all die.

You can kill hundreds if not thousands of people a day in completely untraceable fashion.

>>46900192

Not necessarily. The God-Machine isn't interested in protecting Mortals, only in exploiting them. A Masquerade breach is just as an important tool as keeping people in the dark. It even allows people to learn of its own existance to an extent. The G-M is only actively malevolent or benevolent when it's convenient.

>>46900214

Remember the sweet, sweet lies of when 4chan claimed that there was going to be a CofD LCG with Vampire the Eternal Struggle as a base for the ruleset?

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>>46900064
Actually the Lie help protect supernaturals from breaching their masquerade.

http://theonyxpath.com/ill-lie-to-you/

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The guy on the left is your ideal Rahu

The guy on the right is a Cahalith that has obviously been claimed by a Magath of Kindergartners and Prostitution. The poor sod should just be put out of his misery.

>>46900938

>A handy guide by your friendly neighborhood Demon
>Implying a Demon would ever reveal themselves so blatantly on the God-Machine's own turf

I'm on to you, Angel scum.

>>46895144
You know how Geist has a cool concept, but little to actually do, apart from watch ghosts?
Beast is like that. But without the ghosts.
Beast also has some weird theme things going on.

>>46901052
Every game of Beast is meant to be accompanied by Linkin Park music and random quotes from rpg.net on the state of the world.

It really helps you get in the spirit of it and understand what to do.

>>46901083

What if I use Blink-182 songs and quotes from Giant in the Playground? Is that a proper substitution?

>>46901115
Yes but it's the diet version. Conversely, Sufficient Velocity & Hawthorne Heights is the x-treme edition.

Or maybe SA. Really, it breaks my heart, but basically every RPG forum is interchangeable in this regard.

>>46901146

Ok but what if I used Brokencyde and quotes from /tg/ for this? What would happen then?

>>46900444
Usually? Somewhere between three and five in the morning CET.
That's... Late evening East Coast time, yes?

>>46901169
I don't know Brokencyde but I bet it's terrible, so you should also get the proper experience.

>>46901146
>Sufficient Velocity

SV went that far?
I never joined in the migration from SB, because SV was so much damn slower.
SB is pretty much anti-hugbox. How could SV go so wrong?

>>46901214

>spacebattles poster

Don't you have a Nasuverse fanfic you should be writing?

>>46901237
Nope. You forget that there are ALSO Nasuverse haters. I'm in the latter camp.

>>46901214
>SB is pretty much anti-hugbox. How could SV go so wrong?
If a forum is anti-hugbox, what sort of people do you think would leave it in a mass migration?

>>46901306
...
Yeah. That should've been obvious.
When the unofficial motto is "cope or leave", those who can't cope, will leave.
Yeah. Disregard me. I'm an idiot.

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>>46901270
> Hating Nasuverse
Blasphemy!!!!

>>46901306

That's assuming that a forum was ever anti-hugbox in the first place. Given time, any internet hangout becomes a hugbox, a circlejerk, or a hugbox circlejerk. The key is to find the circlejerk and the kind of hugs you like the most.

>>46901270

You know as well as I do that that still doesn't answer the question.

>>46901357
It is literally the worst of "look how cool we are", in Japanese urban fantasy.

Can a hunter be part of two different conspiracies?

>>46901531
Conspiracies? That'll be hard. Which ones are you thinking about?

>>46901531

It's possible, but given the secretive nature of the Conspiracies, you're working as a double agent of one for the other, and it's going to be like walking a tightrope. It's also going to cost a lot of XP unless your ST is willing to give Merit Dots for the concept.

>>46901566
I was asking more in general if its possible. If for what I have in mind is the Lucifuge with either TF:V or VASCU.
>>46901583
Well obviously the balancing factor of being in two organizations would be that you are not a focused compared to the other player. But either way I'm not making the character for an game, I was just wondering.


>>46901583

>>46901689
>I was asking more in general if its possible. If for what I have in mind is the Lucifuge with either TF:V or VASCU.

I doubt it. EVERYONE is seriously wary about the Lucifuge.

>>46901689

Oh, if it's an NPC, then yeah, it'll be way easier, but Conspiracies do try to make sure that they've got your full loyalty. However, the Lucifuge could be a consultant for TF:V. The Conspiracies do seem have a basic awareness of each other and the Compacts, so I could see something like that happening.

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>>46892825
>mfw no "world of f@gness" post
>he's probably banned
>fugg

Good night, sweet prince!

>>46902030

Well now he's going to come back because you mentioned it. I hope you're happy.

>>46902053
>Well now he's going to come back because you mentioned it.

Not if he's really banned...

>>46902097

Isn't it super easy to ban dodge if you really wanted to?

Hey, I was thinking of running a Changeling Chronicle in the near future, possibly with the GMC update. Any advice or recommended splats I should use? I've got the CotD Core book and the Changeling Core at my disposal at present.

>>46902705

Autumn Nightmares for expanded Antagonists, Lords of Summer for expanded advice on making Freeholds. All the Changeling sourcebooks are pretty good, but those are probably the most relevant to game setup.

>>46893986
>Malk
>Daeva
Something smells fishy about that...

>>46895532
I learned early in my gaming career to plan for a proper game, but to also be prepared for it to go full minmaxing murderhobos at the drop of a hat.

>>46900938
>has obviously been claimed by a Magath of Kindergartners and Prostitution.
I laughed far harder than I should have

>>46902786

Awesome, thanks. I'll look into getting these. Any other advice? Like does the GMC update fuck over anything in particular? Doing a cursory reading, everything looks to be rather unobtrusive.

>>46903030
Not really. It's generally an across-the-board improvement.

The only thing you might object to is how weapons and armor got changed. I love it, but others might not.

>>46903373
And defense. Mostly combat got a little worse.

But in exchange a lot of the social and mental merits are more worthwhile now, rivaling fighting styles. Social merits in particular are a ton better, packed with value. Usually buying one gives you two other merits.

>>46903415
>And defense.

Right. That too.
I personally prefer it like this, but that's a matter of taste.

Thanks guys. Last question, know where I could get my hands on some extra inspiration? I've got my own ideas flooding through my meat-brain, but I could use a little extra star power.

>>46903459
I just don't like how being a witty jogger makes you Muhammad Ali hard to punch or knife. Then if you have the firefight merit at two dots, you can't even be shot!

No wonder demon has so much no roll crazy abilities, they need them to keep up with the new combat system.

>>46903373
>>46903459
Surely nobody was complaining about how weapons went from "bonus dice" to "bonus damage"? Because that bugged this shit out of me in 1e.

>>46903551
Look for any related media and skim through it. Alien/UFO stuff also works surprisingly well with Changeling, and if your group is focuses on the storybook/fairytale aspects of the game, some ayylmao stuff could be a nice way to shake things up and throw them off guard if they get too complacent/powerful.

>>46903583
Not sure why they thought adding Athletics to Defense was a good idea. I could see adding it to your Dodge bonus, or giving a scaled boost to Defense, but I agree that an Olympic swimmer shouldn't be "Muhammed Ali hard to punch or knife".

>>46903583
>witty jogger
You mean olympic class athlete?

I get what you mean. I just don't see it as a problem.

>>46903551

I haven't seen it, but I hear the film "Ink" is good Changeling: The Lost inspiration.

>>46903583
It's kind of hard because defense needed a buff, no doubt about that. Most characters would only have a piddly 2 or 3 to defense, which was basically useless against any character meant to be getting into combat, who could be throwing pools of 8+ even discounting specialties and the like.

I'm not sure if adding Athletics was the way to do it, per se. I've seen a couple of people trying to hack it but so far I've not incorporated any of it into my games.

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>>46903551
The show Grimm is basically about a Hunter in a world of nothing but Changelings
>Pic Related: An Elemental either showing part of his mein or using a Contract of Fire.

>>46903747
My houserule/homebrew is that the boost from Athletics is capped by their Brawl/Weaponry.

>>46903896
Has anyone tried the half athletics trick? Instead of adding the full just give the half. Takes a lot if wind out of people with a ton of athletics.

>>46903896
I have a 1-dot merit, similar to the Brawl/Weaponry ones. It works out ok.

>>46904023

Rounding up or down? It seems like that would make having Athletics 3 kind of a dead zone either way.

>>46904065
I'd assume rounding up, as it makes Athletics 5 stand out a bit more, fitting with the idea that the 5th dot is (fluff-wise) a fairly big deal.

>>46904193
>>46904065
Rounding up would be best, yeah.

>>46904023
>>46904065
>>46904193
>>46904300
That just sounds like a giant 'fuck you' to non-combat characters who want to build to stay out of combat
Instead of getting wits/dex 5 and Athletics 5, min-maxed, for a Defense of 10, you're gimping them against anybody who has min-maxed for combat to only have a Defense of 8, which leaves them summarily fucked

It's extremely unnecessary, all it does it make the combat monsters even harder to handle.

>>46904457
I feel like one of the biggest problems with everyone's complaints about Defense is that it all amounts to "if you minmax".

I have my own fixes, but why not just... not allow minmaxing.

>>46904457
Except that hitting didn't get easier, it got harder. So they made it harder to hit, and made people more dodgy, at the same time.

And I'm not worried about combat monsters, I'm worried about Joe schmoe.

Cindy the house mom stays in shape, jogs, does yoga, so she has 3+3 for six defense (five maybe if she only does 2 athletics). Now unless Joe is a combat monster, good luck hitting her in hand to hand ever, and even if he does there is no damage to speak of.

It seems to create situations where people can accidentally become Dodge monsters, requiring every character who fights to become combat monsters.

>>46904457
You could just... not min-max.

Flattened XP costs encourage rounding out your skills anyway.

>>46904645
No.. Flat xp costs encourage maxing out skills.
Ramping costs encourage spreading.

>>46904457
>build to stay out of combat
If you're using your Defense, you're IN combat. If you're trying to stay OUT of combat, you get AWAY from the combat.

Some of the problem is that RAW give Joe Schmoe a good/high Defense, even if he's never had to dodge/block a punch in his life. Kind of what >>46904640 is saying.

>>46904645
>>46904688
It goes both ways:
Flat XP reduces minmaxing at chargen, as there's no pressure to spend your starting dots efficiently.
On the other hand, it promotes it during character progression, as pushing your high stats even higher costs the same as investing in a new/weak stat.

>>46904688

...no.

If costs ramp:
Spending 4 dots in one skill and 2 dots in another, it'll cost me only (3*N)XP to get to 4/3.
Spending 3 dots in both, it'll cost me (4*N)XP to get to 4/3.
Focusing in saved me N XP to get to the same place.

Under flat costs, it's the same XP cost either way, but I don't have the lower value to be taken advantage of by a canny foe (more obvious with a 1 than a 2, but the principle is exactly the same).

>>46904829
But when five of the first dot in a skill cost the same as the fifth dot in one, it's obvious what is the more XP-efficient way to spend XP.

>>46904873

You have to be dozens of XP into a campaign before "most efficient way to spend XP" overtakes "most efficient way to spend dots" in terms of what's shaped your character more.

The attribute dots alone are worth 48XP.

>>46904546
>>46904645
The point is even if you don't min-max, you're screwing over people who don't build for combat. Someone built for combat, with 3 str and 3 weaponry/brawl, vs someone not built for combat, with 2 wits/dex and 1-2 dots in athletics; by default, they're gonna be rolling 2-3 dice to hit, which is fine. Your houserule, though, leaves them at a solid 3 dice to attack, which is all you need to succeed on a perfectly-average roll.
>>46904640
>>46904793
Cindy the house mom isn't going to have 3 Athletics. She's going to have 1, because that's the level of someone who only participates in athletic shit as an obligation. Athletics 3 is someone who trains at least a few times a week, lifting weights and shit. Someone with an actual gym membership.
You also don't seem to understand how combat works; if he hits, there is most definitely damage being done, equal to the number of successes on the attack roll, plus whatever Joe's weapon does, if he has one. He's probably not gonna kill her in one hit, and that makes sense; nobody dies in one hit unless you get really fucking lucky or hit really hard, aka get a really good roll.

RAW works just fine, in my experience, for handling a combat situation, if you actually stat the average person as an average person, instead of min-maxed capped at 3 like >>46904640 did

>>46904873
True, but those dots aren't equally valuable to a specific character build. If I'm building a combat monster, I'm going to get more use out of that 5th dot of Brawl than on those 1st dots of Computer, Crafts, Politics, Animal Ken, and Empathy.

Chronicles of fagness

>>46904966
>She's going to have 1

She is going to have 1 AT MOST.

>>46904966
So what about two dots of athletics? More than just barely doing athletics stuff, less than weight lifting. Like someone who runs every morning and does yoga. Are they entitled to bringing the average attackers dice down to 1? And then the damage on that attack with no weapon is max...1? Ignoring exploding dice or willpower.

>>46904793
>>46904640
I feel like you don't entirely understand how the system works...

>>46904966
Athletics 3 is actually more of a college track star or someone who's naturally talented beyond the ability to jog a mile.

I also disagree that anyone is getting screwed over. But I also don't know what houserule you're talking about.

>>46905100
Then enlighten. Because saying that doesn't mean anything.

>>46905100
>I feel like you don't entirely understand how the system works...
Just in case I'm confusing something:
Defense penalizes the attacker's roll, correct?
So say we have Angry Biker, who has Strength 3, Brawl 2, and we have Yoga Mom, who has Wits/Dex 2, Athletics 1.
Angry Biker takes a swing at Yoga Mom, and rolls (3 + 2) - (2 + 1) = 5 - 3 = 2 dice. TWO. And that's if Yoga Mom ISN'T actively dodging.

Am I overlooking something?

>>46902030
My post was deleted.

>>46905138
Your argument is basically that "the person with more Defense is harder to hit!"

As other people have pointed out, jogging and doing yoga isn't really super athletic. But to address the core of your concern, yes, if Joe Schmo breaks in and tries to rape Cindy Soccermom, if she's more athletic then she'll be able to better avoid Joe's assault and get away from him.

>>46905210
That the attacker has more dice means the combat is weighted in his favour. He also has the option to go All Out or use Willpower. Fights aren't casual lackadaisical affairs, if you want to hurt someone you're generally trying to HURT THEM. The Biker has the option to raise his pool to four, five, or even seven. He only really needs three or four dice to hit the Yoga Mom, and when he does, chances are she's gonna be feeling it.

Now, I agree that they went a little too far in favour of the Defender, but this is much better than the previous system, where Defense was rarely higher than 2. I'm the one who always suggests "Lesser of Defense or Brawl".

>>46905335
Good.

>>46905084
Okay, let me lay this out for you simply
1 is someone who does yoga, jogs every morning, whatever
2 is someone who goes to the gym once a week, and probably has a monthly gym membership
3 is someone who goes to the gym multiple times a week, and buys a year-long gym membership
4 is someone who goes to the gym every single day, and has a home gym with the things the gym they've got a membership for doesn't provide
5 is an Olympic athlete

>>46905100
3 is the level of someone who makes some manner of professional commitment to the skill in question. A college track star might qualify, if they're dedicated.

>>46905210
2 dice have a 42% chance of getting a success. That's pretty decent, especially when you consider that there's a 18% chance for one of those dice to explode, and give you a small chance of 3 successes.
This, of course, being a perfectly average roll.

>>46905378
...Willpower. I was overlooking Willpower.
Yeah, that changes the math quite a bit.

I'm still thinking I'll keep my "Athletics capped by Brawl/Weaponry" houserule, though, as it helps keep swimmers/runners/weightlifters/etc. from dodging like an MMA fighter.
^Constructive criticism on this is welcome.^

ok so what are the "classes" of beast. Like how Vampire Clans work for example.
Are they actual monsters from legend like Hydra or Manticores? Or are they just archtypes that you can customize for yourself?

>>46905595

'Families,' or what fear you embody.

>>46905595
Archetypes:
Juggernauts, gross things, sea monsters, sky monsters/things you can't hide from, and the unknown/hidden.

>>46905210
>So say we have Angry Biker, who has Strength 3, Brawl 2

Considering that Angry Biker here already has Brawl 2, it's quite likely that he also has a professional training in thug (Drive, Brawl, most likely), and a specialisation in "Beating up smaller and weaker persons than himself."

>>46900259
>>46900422
For some reason I am reminded of Shadow Of Mordor
Though I guess thats more of a Geist thing? Do Geists have brainwashing/intimidation powers?

>>46901741
Yeah being Satans kid is not going to win you a lot of friends

>>46905719
Professional training thug? Lol

>>46905595
>>46905701
I think during development someone asked what family a Dragon would belong to. The answer was either Anakim or Ugallu, depending on the character's concept:
If it was "thing that swoops down out of nowhere and carries off your livestock", it would be Ugallu.
If it was "beast that sets the town on fire and kills everyone", it would be Anakim.

>>46905507
>^Constructive criticism on this is welcome.^
It's basically what I said. You use the lower of Brawl or Athletics. I was originally going to use Weaponry if you were using a weapon, but decided that was too complex. That's the Parry merit. People with a weapon just get +1 to their Defense against people without weapons.

>>46905433
>• Novice: A character at this level is fit and takes good care of himself. He may go for runs regularly, constantly play sports with friends, be a regular backpacker or hiker, or just make an effort to stay in shape.
>•• Professional: At this level of Athletics, the character is serious about his fitness and activity. At the very least, he is playing sports and training regularly, or performing a serious workout regimen. He could probably play minor league or low-level professional sports.
>••• Experienced: An athlete at this level could certainly play professionally, and if she does, she has probably made a name for herself. Her general levels of fitness and ability are noticeably above average.
>•••• Expert: Olympic athletes might have this level of athletic ability. A character at this level can compete on national teams and contend with the best in the world.
>••••• Master: An Athletics Skill at this level represents gold medal winners, world record holders, and the absolute best, fittest, and most talented people in the world.

>>46905719
Oh, yeah, Specialties also help a lot.

>>46905809
It's a thing. Gives 9-again to Intimidate and Brawl at level 2.

>>46905809
It's one of the more diverse merits. I think there's even an example in the 2e core along those lines.

>>46905701
>>46905817
Why must such a cool concept be so shit?

>>46905829
>It's a thing. Gives 9-again to Intimidate and Brawl at level 2.
Yeah, although Angry Biker here probably has a variant with Drive instead of Intimidate.

>>46905595
What kind of fear you represent.
Anakim, the Giants, are nightmares of Hopelessness and the powerlessness that comes from facing something larger and more impossible than you are.
Eshmaki, the Lurkers, are nightmares of the Dark, the hidden horror, the glinting eyes in the darkened foliage, the fear of something stalking and hunting you.
Makara, the Leviathans, are nightmares of the Depths, the crushing oblivion of the dark black ocean
Namtaru, the Gorgons, are nightmares of Revulsion, the hideous strange and foreign Other that threatens you with disgust and reflects the things you hate
Ugallu, the Raptors, are nightmares of Exposure, the feeling of being watched from above before some terror swoops down, and more than that the fear that someone, everyone, knows those things you've done.

Honestly the Makara are pretty unnecessary. They don't really even seem to represent some metaphorical fear like the other groups.

>>46905865
>They don't really even seem to represent some metaphorical fear like the other groups.
You say that but I am terrified of the ocean.
Thats the thing that scares me the most out of all of those.

>>46905863
Because it was built as a crossover splat first, with cool ideas tacked on afterwards. Thus those ideas didn't mesh that well with each other, leading to shitty fluff.

>>46905888
Yeah, but that kind of is covered by "Hopelessness". I can't think of anything more large and impossible than you besides the ocean. Or bureaucracy.