Is a Paladin an ordained member of the clergy?
Could he pronounce two people to be husband and wife? Perform Burial rites? Or is that more the Cleric's area of expertise?
>>46776178
ask your DM, not us
generally speaking, no. paladins are knights, not clergy. i imagine specific paladins could be members of the clergy if they wanted.
I've always imagined that clerics were just priests in light armor and paladins are priests in heavy armor
>>46776178
In what setting?
>>46776242
But clerics wear heavy armor too.
>>46776178
There's something sweet about this concept. Imagine the party saving some tiny village, and the night before they set off to continue their journey, a local boy, barely 18, comes up to the scarred, grizzled old paladin, and asks him if he can wed him to his sweetheart before they leave. The paladin accepts, and then stays up late polishing his armor, and cleaning himself up. The next morning the wedding party meets under a blossom tree in full bloom, white petals raining down on the young couple. The quiet old man, whiskers cropped neatly, standing in armor that glistens under the sunlight, performs the ceremony with a tear in his eye, as the two lovers kiss.
>>46777069
*cheers and clapping*
Wouldn't it be possible for a Cleric to not be an ordained member of the clergy?
Especially among the chaotic gods?
Just sort of worships her god in her own way, following a loose set of tenets that ultimately align with her god's dogma?
>>46777106
Thank you anon, I'm glad you liked it.
>>46776242
>cleric in light armor
Disgusting.
Seriously though priests are seperate from clerics and paladins. Whereas clerics and paladins would be PCs, priests would be the NPCs without any class levels.
>>46777425
>>cleric in light armor
>Disgusting.
Hey! Divine Magician is a damn good alternate class feature.
>>46776178
Why not?
If no cleric is in town I don't see why he can't do it.
>>46777425
>>46777192
In 2nd edition, both clerics and druids were subtypes of the overarching "priest" group (paladins were part of the seperate "warrior" group, along with fighters and rangers). The Complete Priest's Handbook actually talks about the kind of duties a cleric might perform outside of adventuring, like performing marriages and offering guidance, and in general treats them like ordained clergy. Not that every clergyman is a cleric or has magic powers.
Though I like the idea of a cleric who is just a simple farmboy chosen for his faith, while the more worldly and corrupt clergy are passed by.
>>46776234
I'm glad the first reply is a genuine opinion and doesn't continue the "depends on the setting" meme.
Of course it depends on the setting; everything depends on the setting. But that's not what the OP is asking. He's asking for our opinions; it's essentially a brainstorming thread. Of course there is no one true answer to OP's question.
To add to this, usually I find it appropriate to have paladins be blessed and granted "divine permission" by the clergy to go on their missions, but not actually be ordained members of the clergy themselves. Or at least they don't need to be. I suppose a cleric could also become a paladin, or vice versa, if they wanted to.
>>46779295
>depends on the setting" meme
Congradulations. You're retarded. Honestly, there are a hundred different settings and systems out there, it really always depends on the setting.
>>46777069
Implying that the setting involves modern wedding practices and the boy's childhood sweetheart is not instead sold off to an old perv who gives her father 1 bull and 2 cows as a dowry.
>>46777192
>Wouldn't it be possible for a Cleric to not be an ordained member of the clergy?
No, "ordained member of a clergy" is literally the definition of cleric.
>>46779295
>I find it appropriate to have paladins be blessed and granted "divine permission" by the clergy to go on their missions, but not actually be ordained members of the clergy themselves
Sounds like a good take on it, though I'm not sure how that translates into function. I suppose a Cleric has the rites and rituals down while a Paladin has a more secular chivalric code in which he can perform functions, saving divine sanctions for cleaving and smiting.
Could define it down to how their role are (or are supposed to be) defined by their deities. A Cleric is granted divine sanction to perform rites and rituals as needed for their religion, church, and deity, but they can still use it for a bit of smiting, while a Paladin's sanction is very much about the smiting, though it can be used in a pinch to perform rituals as needed for their religion, church, and deity. So I suppose it comes down to what kind of divine contract you signed and what your employee title is, which a little room to fill in when others more qualified are not present or able.
>>46776178
Most members of the clergy are not the Cleric class, ones who are sufficiently awesome to cast spells are rare. I don't see a reason why a Paladin couldn't be one, though not all Paladins will be.
>>46779722
You're confusing cleric with Cleric.
>>46776178
It'd be hilarious if the paladin marries the BBEG with a duck out of spite.
>>46776178
I like to think most of them do help with ceremonies and normal-priest stuff when they're not on crusade. Like if you have a paladin available, he'll probably hang around and carry relics during ceremonies (i.e. the possibly-fake toenail of st cuthbert that a cathedral was sold a few decades ago), but a regular priest or cleric will carry out most ceremonies.
However, their martial training takes up enough time that it's not always expected, and some traditions want to emphasize their role as soldiers by keeping them from becoming too attached to the community.
>>46776178
Well, Paladins do have maritial training.
>>46779295
>"depends on the setting" meme.
Paladins are virtuous holy warriors, so not necessarily.
Clerics definitely.
But paladins? That depends if they have anything more than just favour with a church.
>>46776178
I would say yes, he would be a member of the clergy. But no, he should not be performing marriages even if he's technically allowed to.
Paladins should be spending their time abroad, destroying evil, and leave the busybody work of the church to preachers, priests and monks.
Though, if say the party thought they were on the final legs of a suicide mission, the Paladin should definitely have the power invested in him to officially marry the Ranger to the Elf and have it be totally legit.
>>46779432
>Implying that the setting involves modern wedding practices
>implying those aren't the practices of the paladin's church
>implying part of his mission isn't breaking up the deal between the daughter's father and the old perv by taking the perv to court and proving that he fucks goats
>>46781897
Why does your paladin want to ruin the local economy?
It's not as though the girl is going to be able to work the land like her brother. And that kid she "loves" isn't going to be able to feed her and her kids. Is the paladin going to come back in a few years to raise those starving whelps after dad splits?
>>46778215
That's actually cool to know.
I sometimes have trouble differentiating paladins and clerics, since they do seem fulfill similar functions being holy warriors.
Put simply, Paladins are primarily melee with secondary magic, Clerics are primarily magic with secondary melee. That's how I like it, myself.
To elaborate on differences, a Paladin is a knight, a noble, or some squire who has risen through the ranks or some veteran warrior. They are, first and foremost, military, or of some distinguished order. They, or their order, are pious or of a religious bent in some way, part of a code. They go on quests for glory, glory of a monarch, of the order or a god. They slay evil, put an end to tyranny, do acts of valour and glory of a martial bent, from slaying a rat king in a basement to slaying a demonic dragon. Any powers they have are probably very singular, from holy enchanted weapons to acts of healing or perseverance, maybe calling down the wrath of a deity through shouts or weapon strikes. They are, essentially, archetypal heroes of might, figures of legend, paragons of virtue.
A Cleric is much different. They are simply priests, but travelling priests, probably on pilgrimage or another holy duty, or travelling from parish to parish, or taking on their god's imperative to bring the light to people along the way and putting down evil where it festers. Travelling priests like a Cleric are probably trained to defend themselves, they'd have to be. Their divine abilities, however, are probably much more varied than a paladin's singular callings down of wrath or healing. A Cleric can probably do both of those, and more. Turn the undead, exorcise evil spirits, commune with the dead, commune with a god or saint, command divine power, provide absolution and more.
There is some overlap in abilities, but they are ultimately different roles with different limitations and strengths. A Paladin has the military training a Cleric does not, but a Cleric has spiritual training a Paladin does not.
>>46779432
>implying any of that is medieval and not upper class Roman
Maybe it's sort of like how some Catholic monks are ordained priests, but there's nowhere it says you have to be ordained to be a monk, it's just an additional step you feel you're called to do. So maybe a paladin-in-training feels he's called to know a bit more about his faith and casting some sick spells, and so becomes a cleric first, then moves on to become a paladin. But another individual could go on to become a paladin and not be any less of one because he just wasn't called to be a cleric as well.
>Is a Paladin an ordained member of the clergy?
Yes.
>Could he pronounce two people to be husband and wife?
If necessary, but he wouldn't be capable of going though the full ritual. It'd be a more improvised and personal version of the ceremony, but no less valid in the eyes of gods and men.
Of course there will be people to say a wedding ceremony presided by a paladin is invalid, but they're just being nitpicky and dishonest.
>Perform Burial rites?
Yes, absolutely. Paladins are mostly close to death, so the rites are well-known to them. Very few people will challenge a burial presided by a paladin, especially considering death is so present in their lives.
>Or is that more the Cleric's area of expertise?
It is more the Cleric's area of expertise, but that's not to say a Paladin is incapable of carrying out those duties. It's just not their focus.
I've always liked the idea that clerics and paladins are separate from the rank and file clergy. Like James Bondesque characters endowed with special power to solve a god's specific problems. That way you can have villains in the church hierarchy who aren't high level divine spellcasters by definition. Also explains why temples aren't "cure light" based hospitals. Adds a bit of depth, ya know?
>>46776178
It depends onthe paladin's rank.
But seriously, Paladin are technically militia within a church, so I assume if they are a bit like normal militia, than at a certain rank they CAN officiate things like weddings like real world captains can (if I recall right). Of course, with Paladins there is an added level of it actually be at least a semi-religious officiation than a secular one.
I'd say in my own setting, Paladins CAN officiate mass, weddings, and other religious ceremonies but do need to test to qualify. Though, similar to my above thoughts on it, after a certain rank within their order, they become allowed to officiate at least weddings regardless.
It's a weird contention between churches and state, even if both are prone to being elbow deep in one another's asses.
>>46784776
oh, and as a side note to this though: funerary rites though are something ALL members of church in my setting are taught.
Originally it had to do with beliefs of warding off necromancers (in reality, seeing as cremation is standard funerary practice and skeletons are much harder to raise, that was how it was deterrent), these days it's done out of tradition and a bit out of practicality for wartime or just coming across a body on the road.
>>46776178
IMO it'd come down fairly significantly to what "type" of Paladin they are. If they're all CAN'T TALK, SMITING EVIL then they personally probably wouldn't.
The Paladin can fucking heal wounds by touching them I don't think anyone is going to question the validity of a prayer, blessing, or ceremony that he delivers
>>46776178
>Is a Paladin an ordained member of the clergy?Depends
>Could he pronounce two people to be husband and wife?on
>Perform Burial rites?the
>Or is that more the Cleric's area of expertise?setting
