At what point does modern/semi-modern technology start to overpower magic in a medieval setting like ASOIAF or LOTR?
Although they have some magic (dragons, balrogs, etc) they are general limited in number and the overall population/supply lines/supplies are much much lower than you see in real countries.
At the point when you can mass produce breech-loading or cartridge firearms, it's basically over for fantasy land.
>>46711480
this the invenvtion of fire arms combined with the industrial revolution allowed the creation of massive powerful armies that didn't need that much training
>>46712244
>>46711480
These posters are right but let's not forget that cavalry was still generally the most effective part of early firearm based armies and often they would just run people down, not even bothering with weapons
So if the medieval side has good cavalry, they can sort of compete in skirmishes
>>46712301
true how did people deal with cavalry during the early 1800s
I feel like there's a good story there for a sniper and spotter tracking a wizard and putting him down
>>46710920
what is the point of that image?
is it just pointless dick waving or some kind of shitty joke that went over my head?
>>46712301
Those cavalry were equipped with what now? Firearms of their own, you say?
>>46712386
seems like a an image made for a hypothetical vs discussion
>>46712330
with their own calvarly
>>46710920
>>46711480
>>46712244
>>46712347
You people are also implying that magic will not change and adapt with technology. Which it may not depending on your setting, but in a setting that's willing to accept concepts like enchantment and so forth to modern technology, you can find yourself facing down gun wizards, sorcerers who summon gremlins who fuck up aircraft (where do you think that comes from?), artillery shells infused with necromantic magic to kill living things but leave structures intact for moving in troops, etc.
Oh, don't forget nightmarish things like Dragons armed with twin GAU-8 Avenger Gatling Guns.
See, I prefer worlds where magic and technology advances hand in hand. Like in the Alloy of Law series, sequel to Mistborn. It's a wild west-esque setting where the industrial revolution is in full swing, but allomancy is still a powerful ability that can be used in conjunction with technology. The main character uses his ability to push on metals telekinetically to make his revolver bullets punch through armour, for example.
It makes more sense to me that in settings where magic is well known and studied that people will try to tie it in to technology.
see: Anglo-Zulu war
>>46712455
>implying a dragon wouldn't fall well below his stall speed if mounted with even one
>>46710920
>At what point does modern/semi-modern technology start to overpower magic in a medieval setting like ASOIAF or LOTR?
None.
Unless you are a wizard scrub who thinks that evocation or conjuration magic like "fireball" or "summon monster", magic consistently beats technology.
Direct mass-damage is shit. If you are doing a field battle and concentrate your magic users in one place, you deserve to get shit on by the technology faggots.
Small guerilla wizard-terrorist cells that are constantly on the move are deadly, stealthy and efficient.
Also, one fucking word: divination. The war isn't fought by battles, it is fought by strategy, logistics, subversive tactics and, most importantly, information.
Need I fucking remind you the impact Enigma had on WWII?
Fuck up the logistics of the tech-faggots, and laugh as you see their frontlines crumble, because they don't have food, ammunition or equipment.
tl;dr magic beats technology everytime, as long as you don't engage the technology faggots directly.
>>46710920
It depends on the setting.
If you have low level of magic, it's rare, or so on, then tech will win relatively easily.
But, if you have magic that can make anti-bullet force fields, and the only way to get a force-field eating dog is by magic (which one side lacks), there's no way the modern forces can win because only magic can defeat magic. They'll just get nuh-uh'd to death.
>>46710920
>At what point does modern/semi-modern technology start to overpower magic in a medieval setting like ASOIAF or LOTR?
depends. in ASOIAF, pretty quickly. in LotR, the ordinary armies will be overpowered right away. in neither setting is magic or the supernatural very common. but at what point does technology overpower something like ancalagon, ungoliant or manwe? tolkien didn't waste much time talking about the exact power levels of his creations, so it's hard to say.
and that's assuming a direct confrontation. sauron would probably have modern governments eating out of his palm if he went for a more subtle approach, just like numenor.
>>46712526
You say that, but it only takes a few seconds to teleport to their capitol, call down some meteors, and teleport away.
>>46712526
This assumes that every wizard has every spell and is at least level 5-7.
>>46712594
>implying levels
what shitty RPGs are you playing?
>>46712570
That implies you know the location of their capitol.
Infor-fucking-mation, bitch. Of course, you can easily divine it, but that's the point - the war is won by information, not by randomly shooting fireballs.
Hell, you can just spread propaganda and false-flag the shit out of the tech-fag country, and they will cease the campaign willingly themselves.
>>46712526
You do know that a all-wizard army would be at-most 200 due to a whole list of reasons why the very rare wizard would team up with 199 other wizards to fight an enemy they probably don't want to fight on an individual level.
>>46712467
same. The idea of magical alchemy alone is a massive game-changer where we could end up with little concern over resources due to simply needing to only transmute one element to another (lead into a gold is quickly ends up being a dog and pony show for beginners while masters are synthesizing normally impossible isotopes), thrown in the idea of being able make things with normally impossible properties and magic advances technology advances magic.
in a superhero setting I played with where things like magic were part of daily life, one of the consequences was that mile-high skyscrappers became the norm with the successful synthesis of cavorite which allowed massive segments of a skyscrapper to hold itself up in the air even if other parts were damaged and destroyed.
>>46712632
>implying anyone doesn't know where DC, London, Paris, Moscow, etc. are
Well of course the omnipotent white room saitama wizards will win every fight ever because they'll just nuke it from orbit or *Teleports behind you* *Unsheaths fireball*
>>46712637
Again, one or two wizards are worth an entire terrorist cell. You can commence "terror on war" (kek) in 100 different locations, fucking up the entire country like it's fucking nothing.
>>46712667
>implying Earth
And yes, there are such people. Look at the American education, for example. Of course, such people wouldn't be wizards, but still, the point stands.
>>46712615
The same one that allows wizards to be that strong.
>>46710920
OP, you do realize that Sauron would conquer the modern world if he existed, right?
If magic is not a win button, the modern era wins 100% of conflicts from 1914 technology onwards.
Another setting that comes to mind is Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell. Magic has a lot of practical applications that mesh well with the Napoleonic Era needs that the British government had, as well as retaining that feeling of high fantasy with the Fairies and the Raven King.
At the start of the American Civil War.
>>46712887
How do you figure?
>>46712691
Dude those inbred hicks are the types that would try to burn mages. So no most mages are smart and would be able to figure out where the capitol of a nation is.
>>46712455
see: GATE
>>46712566
so what you're saying is that jews are corrupted maiar
>>46710920
>>46711480
Innovation is a process. Even if you know everything in advance, you can't just skip all the steps.
For a detailed exploration of what guns do to a fantasy setting, see: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/7568728/1/Saruman-of-many-Devices
>>46712852
>not just blowing up sauron's tower and everything surrounding with a small nuke, letting the mountains help contain the radiation
we don't even need an aircraft, a hobbit can deliver it
>>46713100
>fanfiction.net
>>46713143
>That comment
>That image
I'm now imagining super-alpha male football star Frodo doing a full fifty yard dash into Mordor and Spiking the One Ring at the goal line (fires of Mount doom) and then doing a victory dance.
>>46710920
while generally true that any modern army could steamroll even the best fantasy army, the US (for example) would be pretty vulnerable to high tier individuals. Sure we could conquer mordor at the peak of its military might, but we would be putty in sauron's evil fingers, and he would probably be running everything, with our armies enforcing his laws, before the year was through.
Against modern technology the pseudo-medieval tech of the settings you mention means their weapons are basically irrelevant. A knight in the best armour money can buy or a naked baby is much the same when you drop a nuke on him from the other side of the planet.
So if we want somewhat discreet magic (LotR didn't exactly have Gandalf dropping a MRLS barrage on the orcs) to be able to tip the balance, then we must get closer to the fantasy world's level of tech. Much closer.
See, a 15th century army will tend to have a significant advantage over a 14th century one. And once we get into the rolling volleys of a proper 16th century army combined with solid shock cavalry any medieval force will just melt away. Then the 30 years war army drops by and shreds the 16th century one...
So the capacity of military technology and tactics can often change quite rapidly, meaning we must know pretty damn well what our fantasy force is capable of if magic is to be able to turn the tide without being extremely powerful. I've yet to see any fantasy setting where things are that well defined.
>>46713143
The Hobbit didn't deliver it. That's the point. Even in the end the Ring overpowered Frodo and hw as about to walk away and eventually it would fall into Sauron's possession again. It took the divine intervention of Eru, AKA capital G God, to kill Sauron. When Gollum tore the ring from Frodo, it was Eru who caused an earthquake that set Gollum tumbling into the fires of mount doom.
And Sauron wouldn't have his tower attacked at all, because Sauron would have already taken over most national governments by popular election.
>>46713336
>the hobbit didn't deliver it
that was the joke mang, but unmanned aircraft can do what the corruptible man cannot
it really depends on whether or not there is a full-blown war.
>full-blown war
sauron full-blown up
>non-war state where their magic is known about by the government
probably won't last long because that presents a very real threat of something that cannot be controlled and may very well be controlling them. If the magic side cannot infiltrate the tech-side soon, they
>non-war state where tech government does not know about magic
magic will over time come to rule from behind the scenes, think Illuminati shit
>>46712301
>Breach-loading mass produced rifles
>Early firearm
Pick one, you stupid cunt
And educate yourself about bayonets, which rendered fucking cavalry charges completely pointless, as even reloading time could allow cavalry an open field for charge.
>>46712330
With square formation, you moron.
Which could be only countered by so-called "flying batteries" - a small cannon that was carried by cavalry detatchment to break the formation of infantry and then follow with charge.
Assuming you hit and hit hard.
>>46712526
Let me get this straight. You have a force that is capable within few seconds mow down entire armies, cities and fortresses, because artillery is a bitch. You have a force that is entirely capable of mowing down your infantry, cavalry or what not with "short controlled bursts". And most importantly, you have a force with excellent long-range communication.
And for whatever reason you try to pull guerilla warfare?
Go read about Second Boer War. It should give you a picture how to effectively deal with guerilla troops in a war that pretty much INVENTED guerilla warfare as such.
Because nobody said the modern army has to play it nice.
>>46713606
>>full-blown war
>sauron full-blown up
Again, mordor gets smashed to shit, but sauron himself steps out of whatever sub-dungeon of barad dur he was chilling in during the bombardment, politely surrenders to the might of men, happily explains who he is (KIng Excellent) and what he does (engineering), and submits himself for scientific study and starts explaining the inner workings of the universe. Then, once everyone is used to having a helpful demigod around he runs for election, and only then does he slowly start turning everything evil.
>>46716315
>Go read about Second Boer War. It should give you a picture how to effectively deal with guerilla troops in a war that pretty much INVENTED guerilla warfare as such.
Oh, but now we have intercontinental bombers, with plague and smallpox and herbicides and incendiaries and good old high explosives.
Assuming a 100kt fireworks display won't be enough to make the hostile ruler reconsider things.
>>46712455
>implying the GAU-8 wouldn't generate too much recoil force for dragon mounting
Also, where the fuck would the ammo and powerplant for the weapon go?
>>46717558
>ammo
Large ammo belts? IF a dragon can carry and fire two GAU-8s he can probably carry some ammo.
>powerplant
It's a fucking dragon. He probably has some magic to spare for this shit. There are probably means to turn magic into electrical power, and possibly vice-versa.
>>46716897
The point was more about "it takes to be insane to fight with such force" combined with "guerillas are shit if you don't mind killing everyone", but I guess we agree about basic concept.
>>46712455
Guns are a waste on aircraft, bombs and missiles and significantly better. especially when the entire role of an autocannon is FAR better met by the dragon's breath and (depending on setting) magic, which don't require any extra weight or logistics over just the platform.
>>46712526
Anon, don't want to burst your bubble, but the moment the "organised military" stops having issues about genocide, "small group of guerilla fighters" is utterly fucked, since everyone that could help or support them gets deported or outright killed.
How are you doing to justify your ongoing resistance if in retaliation the other side carpet-bombs entire city or simply executed 100 people for every one killed on their side? And given their tech superiority, they are going to easily slaughter those civilians, because all you've got is your handful of mages.
So yeah, keep on going, lets see who will crack first. And just hope you are not dealing with someone at the peak of imperialism, because they will just not stop until they will turn your nice and cozy fantasyland into efficient colony.
>>46719457
Dunno ask the Belgians in ww1. They continued resistance to spite massive reprisals from the Germans not limited to entire towns wiped out.
>>46712455
Anon, dragons do not need additional weapons. They're already a flying arsenal.
>ASOIAF
Once they can reliably kill dragons and weird-ass icemurderzombiethings.
>LOTR
Fucking immediately.
>Generic D&D setting
Hahahahaha good luck.
Troops number are dumb, it's better to compare the % of the population that it's part of the army.
>>46721122
>cast wish
>wish the Americans dead
weoeoeooeoeoeoeoeeo
>>46712395
Occasionally, but that was broadly irrelevant.
The reason cavalry is important is because 80%+ casualties come during the route. If you're facing a line of dudes who are armed, facing you, and ready to fight, it's pretty tough to actually pick one out and kill them. Guns make it doable, but they were hideously inaccurate about that time anyway.
So what you do is once you actually get your opponent's army to break, and they're no longer all standing together, ready to repel a cavalry charge and looking out for one another, you give chase. They're defeated and want to escape, but you don't want to let them while you could still be doing more damage to them (and pretty easily/safely, since they're already defeated).
Except that they're retreating at the same top speed as you; foot power.
That's what horses were for. Once you break them up, and they can't form a pike square to break up a charge, run 'em down. Curiassiers with sword and breastplate were just fine. Armor could generally deflect or stop bullets for quite a while. That's one of the reasons WWI was so bloody; when there actually was a decisive victory, a breakthrough, etc., they didn't have anything that could pursue and press such an advantage; modern battlefields at that point were too lethal for horses, and they didn't have cars or motorized companies yet.
>>46721334
>The wish turns them all into undead making the intended wish even harder to accomplish.
>>46721441
Have a nap and use a second wish to send them to the plane of all the gravity.
>>46717844
>large ammo belts
>for a gau-8
>1200 round belts of 30mm. In a belt.
>on a gun that weighs 4000 lbs.
And you want him to carry two? And fire them while flying? That dragon must be a /fit/ motherfucker
![maxresdefault[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/bwkSKtV.jpg "maxresdefault[1].jpg")
>>46721676
Well he is a dragon. It depends entirely on how big dragons are in this particular setting and/or how much magic can assist. Maybe the ammo isn't being carried, but instead portaled in from a safe location.
If a dragon is big enough to feasibly carry two GAU-8s in a useable, fireable state, he can probably carry ammo for them too.
>>46710920
>At what point does modern/semi-modern technology start to overpower magic in a medieval setting like ASOIAF or LOTR?
At the point at which instantly-problem-solving magics stop working.
If you have wizards that can destroy whole nations or armies or whatever, then it's pointless. If not, if their magic is individually potent but nothing more, then their entire system of warfare is effectively obsolete.
>>46721676
>>46710920
Depends entirely on how the magic in your setting works. I've seen at least one example where magic was literally just computer programming that also warped reality. MC could bring people back from the dead by shooting them with his focus. Shit was OP.
If it's more generic D&D style, I'd wager that pure firearms begin to win out vs. pure magic at about the time breech loading rifles become relevant. That said, you're more likely to see magic and modern firearms used at the same time rather than just one or the other. Clerical healing would be a fucking godsend (no pun intended) on any battlefield and enchanted weapons are always a good thing.
>>46721676
Another thing that depends heavily on the setting. There are a lot of dragons with feet larger than that car. Smaug, the larger Warcraft dragons, the dragons in the Temeraire series (depending on species), and I'm sure there are more. It's not unfeasible that they could carry and operate one or more GUA-8's with some training.
>>46710920
Somewhere between the Napoleanic era when armies became fuck huge and the first world war, where traditional infantry/cavalry/artillery tactics become totally ineffective.
What about the WHF setting?
The modern side would make huge gains, at first, and likely be able to conquer large areas. But they'd get bogged down by logistics and supply, local issues, pacifying civilian populations et cetera. Your typical asymmetric conflict.
I disagree that this would entirely turn into guerilla wizards with swords and magic versus modern military forces, though. There's going to be overlap.
Someone, somewhere, eventually, is going to steal a gun. It's inevitable. You can't have an army with thousands or even millions of firearms and fail to lose any. In the real world, groups like ISIS routinely use American military equipment that was captured or stolen. One of the most common firearms in the Iraqi insurgency was the American M16A4 rifle; it's almost as common as the AK there.
And it's not just rifles. They're going to get their hands on trucks, and body armor, and field kits. Not in very great numbers, certainly, but at least a few. They'll study how they work and produce crude, low-grade locally-made copies, because they're effective. Congratulations, you just advanced their science of firearms forward several centuries. And that's excluding magical solutions like conjuring new firearms. Within a year, these local forces will be wielding a mix of crude firearms and captured foreign-made firearms.
Ah, but this is a two-way street. Are 100% of wizards in this setting hostile to the modern army? Is it not feasible at least a few will work with this foreign group, for any number of reasons - greed, seeking power, intending to betray them, getting back at rivals, etc? Whatever the reason, it won't be long before these local friendlies assist the modern force in employing anti-magic countermeasures, and even in offense.
Neither will overtake the other. Instead, their elements will come together, and obsolete many things as it forms a new, more advanced style of warfare.
>>46722818
So, in the end nothing really changes, and /k/ has more topics to shitpost about?
>>46724437
Pretty much.
>>46724437
Probably, unless the modern side is desperate/scared enough for genocide or the medieval side gets their act together very quickly and dismantles the modern infrastructure in a matter of weeks.
>>46711480
only in low fantasy settings. High fantasy is another ball park.
![c2a2e21a7ca41ad73a63fc717f5c2905[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/SemAB4q.jpg "c2a2e21a7ca41ad73a63fc717f5c2905[1].jpg")
>>46713180
>not Uncle Rico throwing frodo over them mountains
>>46718153
Somebody didn't learn their lesson from Vietnam.
j.k. rowling stated that voldemort could be killed by a single guy with a machine rifle
>>46724815
Eh, that seems like a fight of who sees who first. They'd both be quite capable of killing the other quickly.
I wrotemost ofa sitcom treatment based on the premise of a fantasy land that that had passed into modern times.
My answer to this was that magic and technology would become indistinguishable at some level. If you're a large country, your military employs wizard details alongside normal troops, and the armor on your tanks is magically enhanced. You might have dragons in the air forcealthough in the setting of the show Merlin cursed all dragons to grow to the maximum size of a golf cart after their leaders stole his booze. There's not really any reason for it to be magic vs technology. They grow together.
The same thing would happen outside of society. Being a wizard becomes a highly specialized and technical job, like being a doctor. Then you just get hired by a company to go and work on various projects. Which is what the protagonist of the show does.
>>46721024
>dragons do not need additional weapons.
Anon you can always do with more weapons.
>>46724437
/k/ will add wizard staffs and enchanted swords to the Murder Cube
>>46713186
Didn't he literally do just that in numenor?
>>46713186
Yet another reason why we need campaign finance reform. We need to stop evil wizards from stealing our elections.
>>46725420
Basically, this. Magic VS Tech is much less likely than Magitech. I don't know any self-respecting engineer who could look at some magic trinket without immediately thinking of all the ways to incorporate it's physics defying ways into the latest techno widget.
>>46712526
Honestly this depends a lot also on the magic used. I already have one middle age setting where magic could kick a modern day nations ass.
Summon up 20,000 ghosts of the dead. Then tell them to kill the modern day army. What's the army going to do against ghosts? Use ritual magic to mind control a nation or rip a hole into hell and release a horde of demons.
The modern day has a lot of powerful things but they lack a lot of real counter measures for really powerful magic.
>>46727851
Yeah. Honestly I like to use this setting idea rarely but it is a pretty good one if used right.
>>46720975
Belgians didn't get sent to concentration camps and their homes/towns burned to the ground.
Rather ask British how did they've handled real guerilla commandos of Boers during Second Boer War. I will give you a clue - even by WW1 standards that would be a long series of war atrocities.
Modern weaponry will likely beat a wizard, but to say that means modern army would beat magic weilders is like saying that Roman legions could beat modern military because it falls behind in gladius fencing.
Magic tends to have powers that modern technology can't mimic properly - this is why people write fantasy rather then realistic modern-day stories - giving them great deal of strategic advancement in evasion, subversion and controlling the battlefield muggles are not likely to have many chance to successfully attack.
Obviously, it depends on what kind of magic you bring in. Magic isn't real so parameters are not defined at all.
>>46710920
Fixed.
>>46724796
If an F4 Phantom could breathe fire, it might not have needed guns.
talking about ASOIAF, as i just get hold of the pdf, all threads about it dies.
>>46712455
So shadowrun?
>>46716072
>which rendered fucking cavalry charges completely pointless
Not against a breaking formation, or poorly trained Turkish machine gun lines.
>>46713336
Actually by my reading I always figured it was frodo using the rings power to cuck the ring itself. I forget when exactly but some time between putting the rope on gollum and shelobs cave Frodo told gollum that if he raises his hand and tries to take the ring form him the ring will have him cast himself into the very fires of orodruin. Fast forward to mount doom and the ring repeats what frodo earlier said in sams eyes.
Sauron is a magical demigod that uses his innate magical power to corrupt and debase individuals and institutions. Numenor achieved the simple act of military dominance; it did them no good. Sauron led them to destruction with casual ease.
In short, obviously modern weapons trump ancient or medieval weapons, but modern magic is laughably weak in the face of a bona fide demigod like that.
>>46724796
>someone didn't learn their lesson from Vietnam
That the F4's without guns had a higher kill rate than those with? That BVR technology has advanced tremendously in half a century?
I dunno, did you learn your lesson from Vietnam?
>>46729321
>That the F4's without guns had a higher kill rate than those with?
This is fair
>That BVR technology has advanced tremendously in half a century?
This one isn't if they were'n held back by political bs they would have had no problem.
>>46729321
>>46718153
Surely if you're dogfighting dragons, you run into trouble with missiles anyway?
The Radar-reflective properties of Magic, and the body-temperature of dragons (and thus the effectiveness of radar guided/heat seeking missiles) are both open to debate.
>>46713606
>that was the joke mang, but unmanned aircraft can do what the corruptible man cannot
No, because nobody can pick up the Ring and place it on the aircraft. Especially not modern mortal men from the 4th/5th age or whatever we count as. Our blood is heavily diluted and corrupted. We lack the nobility of Aragorn who was able to resist it. Plus the Ring has a mind of its own, and may very well simply grow so heavy it slips out.
>sauron full-blown up
Does not matter. Sauron cannot die. As long as the Ring exists he will simply reconstitute himself. By the Ring Sauron does what no other Maiar can- he does not fade.
>
probably won't last long because that presents a very real threat of something that cannot be controlled and may very well be controlling them. If the magic side cannot infiltrate the tech-side soon, they
Sauron does not infiltrate. Everybody knows he's essentially the Anti-Christ, but he's loved and popular anyway. He was the arch-nemesis of Numenor and loathed by all its people, held even in prison, yet the Numenorians and their King let him take over anyway by force of magical charisma.
We are helpless against Sauron. Nobody will be able to resist him and we'll all end up part of his new world order.
>>46728422
the Turks don't count. The Ottoman empire was a decadent retarded relic
