Are the mages/magi/whatever in Fate closer to wizards or sorcerers?
>>46608147
Who cares about that shit setting anyway.
>>46608189
I don't disagree that it's kinda shit, but I still like it.
>>46608147
>Get Magic from learning
>Ornate rituals involving rare ingredients
Seems pretty straightforwards to me.
None of them just so happened to have a great, great grandfather who boned a Dragon which cause them to wake up with the ability to use Magic.
>>46608304
But how good you can be at magic is a genetic trait. And only shitty casters (thus most modern day ones) need rituals and/or rare reagents, actually good casters just do shit like that >>46608246 whenever they feel like it.
>>46608358
That's no different than a wizard's innate casting stat depending on the system. A psyker has a base psy rating, a wizard has an intelligence stat, some other systems have base power stats.
>>46608383
>That's no different than a wizard's innate casting stat depending on the system. A psyker has a base psy rating, a wizard has an intelligence stat, some other systems have base power stats.
I'm not saying they're more like sorcerers, I'm saying it's not as clear cut as you made it out to be. Anyone can potentially learn magecraft if they study it, but your potential at it is generic and thus family lines are incredibly important to mages etc.
>>46608471
Unless you burgle other people's magic circuits, which is a thing.
Caster did nothing wrong. (Except for that one time, with the children.)
>>46608147
They are close to the mmo wizards- damage only shit. They are shit. This setting is shit. Fuck this gay earth for making this setting a reality along with it's autistic fanbase.
>>46608991
>except for all the rape and child murder
>>46608147
They're closer to Psions than either of those, and close to the 3E Erudite than the Psion, but that's still not a good fit because hardly anything that's not D&D works on D&D magic rules.
But yes, of those two they're probably closer to the Sorcerer lore (if not the mechanics) on account of having genetic predisposition towards being able to do magic... except they're also generally Wizard-style nerds who go research shit.
Like I said, D&D isn't a good model to use for this.
>>46608358
>actually good casters just do shit like that >>46608246 whenever they feel like it.
Actually good casters that don't actually exist these days, you mean? Modern magi are more Tokiomi/Kayneth than Medea's overpowered ancient magic.
Which still means flamethrowers and rapeworm body snatching and the equivalent of the D&D Clone spell and reality warping, but not really anything on Medea's level.
Also, of course, they're running on MP.
>>46609252
>Actually good casters that don't actually exist these days, you mean? Modern magi are more Tokiomi/Kayneth than Medea's overpowered ancient magic.
Yes, I said that. Thanks for reading my post.
>>46609186
Meaning she's been on the straight and narrow for like 3000 years now. It's time to let it go, my friend.
>>46608147
That question is basically impossible to answer, because there are so many different kinds of magic user operating under more or less the same name in Fate.
In the beginning you had a very small number of True Magic users. How they got their powers varied from person to person, but they could basically just do miracles whenever they damn well pleased.
Practicers of Magecraft, which is what you seen in the modern world, are basically just powerful families that have spent generations slowly and painfully crafting their own unique magical gear as a cumulative work. No amount of knowledge you find in books can turn a normal person into a wizard, because they dont have any magic circuits. You have to spend decades making your first magic circuit, and then you can use that circuit to make you second in 'only' a few years. And once you have enough magic circuits you can start wiring them together to create complex spells and shit, but once you do that those circuits are dedicated and you have to make even more magic circuits before you can work on any other spells, and so on and so forth.
So this means that two different families are going to have wildly different magic, both because they did their research independently and are based on different shortcuts to power, but also because their ancestors focused on different things. Like, maybe your great grandfather was super into the study and manipulation of time, so you have some low level useless chronomancy party tricks while the other magus in town is rolling around with fireballs. And there is nothing you can do to bridge that gap in your lifetime. You simply don't have enough time to make your own fireball spells from scratch, unless your family is just up to its ass in magic circuits and spellcraft laboratory equipment.
>>46608991
What about the time when she tried to get her second husband to unwittingly commit filicide?
>>46609479
Nasu said it never happened. It was all lies and slander made up by Jason to cover his ass.
>>46608147
Look, they're
BULLSHIT.
You know why? Because none of the rules make sense! Powerlevels are off the fucking scale! Everyone is an exception to everything we've ever known. There's no baseline.
It's fucking impossible. Don't try to wrap your head about it, you'll give yourself a stroke.
>>46609567
>Everyone is an exception to everything we've ever known.
Alrighty, then. Who is the exception to "everyone is an exception to everything" rule?
>>46609603
Assassin. He's just a generic anime swordsman because he's literally fiction.
>>46608358
The laser shows she puts on weren't really the norm back in her day either. She herself had never really done stuff like that before FSN. The magecraft she uses in the story was taboo, it was forbidden, when she was life.
>>46609673
Assassin is an exception to tons of shit, being a heroic spirit despite not actually existing is one of them. Also, the assassin class is the worst class for direct fighting, except that Assassin is the best direct fighter in the war. I could go on.
>>46609603
Angra Mainyu and shit.
>>46609673
He's probably the best swordsman in the nasuverse.
He could have given everyone a run for their money if he was summoned as saber by a proper master.
>>46609714
>The magecraft she uses in the story was taboo, it was forbidden, when she was life.
And raping children with dickworms is forbidden too, not like that stops the Matous.
>>46609749
>raping children with dickworms is forbidden too
It's actually not. Nobody really cares about what the wormgeezer does.
>>46609731
Angry Manjew is also very exceptional. Also in the same "fictional and only exists due to someone breaking the laws of the universe" category as Assassin.
>>46609818
If the cops knew he was raping children with dickworms, they'd get killed by dickworms. But they wouldn't want him to keep raping children with dickworms, that's for sure.
>>46608959
That sounds like it could be a lucrative business. Grafting magic circuits from homunculi was even proven to work in Apocrypha. So if you can continuously breed homunculi donors for their circuits, that opens up a world of possibilities.
>>46608147
They're authors. Writers.
>>46608147
I think you made this thread because you wanted to draw out the people who have some strange irrational hatred towards Fate
>>46608147
Scientists.
>>46612702
Seems legit.
>>46609479
That isn't even a thing in most versions of her story.
>>46609722
He is not a heroic spirit, just a ghost spirit, he cannot be summoned if the grail wasn't corrupted.
>>46609737
Nope, as we can see most super martial artists in history was capable of impossible skills due to sheer awesomeness.
Okita not only can make 3 attack at the same time as well, she also hits the same spot with the 3 attack and cause the space/continuum to break down at the spot.
SUGOI SUGOI
>>46614992
HIDE YOUR SHOTAS
>>46609859
Half the Nasuverse falls into that category, senpai
>>46612795
Is that a man or a woman on the left?
>>46615489
man, Paracelsus
>>46609859
>If the cops knew he was raping children with dickworms, they'd get killed by dickworms. But they wouldn't want him to keep raping children with dickworms, that's for sure.
I think his point was that it was not illegal from the perspective of other magi. It's not something that, say, the Clocktower or the Church would bother dealing with. Besides, what kind of shit-tier mage gives a shit about the police?
>>46615489
Ah, so they got around to making a servant of that guy. Doesn't look a lot like the sort of loudmouthed drunkard he was reputed to be.
>>46616105
By his enemies
>>46609479
>>46609522
And lets not forget that Aphrodite mind-fucked her pretty hard in the first place.
>>46609749
>>46609859
The Magi in the Nasuverse pretty much works like the Masquerade in Vampire: You can do all the horrible shit you like as long as you do if covertly, once it goes public or is about to go public you better expect an Enforcer or a Executor to show up to fuck your day up.
Unfortunately both Tsukihime as well as Fate kinda suck in the depiction what kind of a big deal both the church or the Clocktower are and how powerful Enforcers/Executors are in comparison to your average modern mage.
>>46608147
monks
>>46608147
More importantly: Who is a bigger cunt? Gaia, Alaya or Archetype Earth?
>>46609369
Wasn't she plotting to kill everyone in Fuyuki to gather their energy? That's not exactly on the "straight and narrow".
>>46618302
That bit always gets exaggerated.
>>46619102
She was just taking a little bit, not enough to kill anybody.
>>46618796
F/Ha said pretty clearly that Rin will get instant gibed by Bazett.
>>46609159
how the everloving fuck do people keep making images like these
>>46608147
A mage/magus is the Nasuverse equivalent of Wizard. It's a very broad term, just "anyone who has Magic Circuits", or at least enough to have the potential to perform/cast/use Magecraft.
Depending on your definition of sorcerer, the most direct Nasuverse equivalent are Magicians/Sorcerers, Magi who understand and can perform one of the True Magics/Sorceries. Like Zelretch and his Second Magic.
Caster is not at all a typical Magi, aside from being a Servant she's from the Age of Gods, when ordinary magecraft was on the level of True Magic.
Most modern magecraft is pretty shitty for direct combat, unless it's being used by a Magus with exceptional Magic Circuit capacity/efficiency or there's some other shenanigans going on like artifacts, Rune magic, or the Magus set up in some place of power (or can make their own with a Reality Marble).
>>46618796
>Unfortunately both Tsukihime as well as Fate kinda suck in the depiction what kind of a big deal both the church or the Clocktower are and how powerful Enforcers/Executors are in comparison to your average modern mage.
Can't be helped, considering both the Holy Grail War and the Vampire Incident aren't really important enough on a grand scale to warrant much attention from either the Clocktower or the Church.
>>46619102
There were some deaths early on, but after adjusting the ritual she made it so it only drained enough energy to knock people out, but not kill them.
>>46619102
Didn't she try to refrain from killing innocents for Kazuki's sake?
>>46624838
no , just killing will force the church to intervene like they did in 4th war.
>>46612702
>Edison
>Has EX skills which are actually D level
>His work in cinema pretty much ended up with him being able to cancel out mystery
>Made bootleg versions of Babbage's own robots painted in USA colors
>Is actually empowered by America's presidents
>Wanted to make America great again
>Has the best team
Best fictional depiction of Edison.
>>46625584
What's with the lion-head though?
>>46626496
Reference to his contribution to Hollywood. Edison himself says that he's human and the lion head is just something he got as a Heroic Spirit because of his fame.
>>46619184
so there is a version that doesn't involve her getting mind whammied, telling Jason how to get around the dragon and killing her brother so they can escapse?
>>46619184
How so? Medea is described as meek and innocent princess who was only known for being able to wield magic until Hera decides that she would be the key to Jason getting the Golden Fleece and gets Aphrodite to force Medea to fall madly in love with him.
>>46608991
Greek myths are varied. In one version she killed her kids, and in the other her kids were killed in retaliation.
So the basic rules of the Nasuverse:
1. The rarer the magic school, the more powerful.
Which is why Reinforcement is a very shit type
2. The rarer the spell type, the more powerful
3. The older the spell tradition, the more powerful
4. There are no rules, only the exceptions
5. E rank stats is 10x human. And Grail system is capped at 50x at A rank, before situational boosts.
6. Genetics are genetics. Which means a potential 10-20 generation lag of genes
>>46625343
no that would be the giant monster in the middle of the harbor. they give no fucks about killing as long it progresses the art and you can cover it up.
the problem that Fate has is that we have no fucking clue what happened in the first two wars. the third broke the grail because Angra Mainyu bullshit summoning and the Finns' saying never go back to fight in this cluster fuck. the fourth being the only war that is seen that most of the players have a game plan going in, and the fifth is kids and none mages trying to not die most of the time, hell the person that should have won that war was taken out by the priest before she got started because she would wreck all of them except Gil.
For all that is out there out there to read, it is like trying to figure out an entire culture from one real battle and kids fucking around in the woods play fighting. sure it can be done but you are going to miss alot of the none battle time stuff
>>46608304
>None of them just so happened to have a great, great grandfather who boned a Dragon
Except Merlin, and Saber.
>>46623372
Its also worth noting Nasuverse mages are both Wizards and Sorcerers.
But in modern times they are too weak in Blood to be true DnD Sorcerers. Most of them need elaborated batteries, and can only cast big magic as rituals.
Most of the bloodline magic is also very weak, and very specialized. They need to learn other things.
In that sense, modern Nasuverse mages are Wizards. They need rituals, materials, mana filled batteries. They need to learn extra spell schools.
The rare mage might actually be a Sorcerer, using merely the right of its blood, and its gifted schools.
But most are not that strong.
>>46608147
>>46609252
>closer to the Sorcerer lore (if not the mechanics) on account of having genetic predisposition towards being able to do magic
It's a complex system.
Basically, in Nasuverse, you do require magic circuits to manipulate mana/prana/od, the energies generated by the world and within living things to cast spells. But, you can only cast spells from the school of magic that you know, and the power of this magic is directly tied to geography because the systems of magic are inscribed into the Earth's mystic leylines. This is partly why the Makiri/Matou's magecraft just started falling apart after they moved to Japan; without someone in their homeland to maintain their magical system and unable to transplant it to Fuyuki, they lost the ability to use it. This is also why they started to lose magic circuits; not exercising your bloodline's magic circuits can lead to them slowly eroding away over time.
Then you have actual Psionics in Nasuverse, who have no magic circuits but are born with a certain type of human supernatural ability. It's more useful than most magecraft but it's got a much lower power threshold, and can only be passed on through bloodline. They're the most like D&D Sorcerers since it requires no training to activate, it's just a quality you're born with. This is Shiki, SHIKI, Akiha, and the maids.
And then you have the Magicians, who can just do things that are impossible to replicate with magecraft but not with technology or science.
>>46627545
SHIKI and Akiha are not strictly psychics, as their powers are not the result of the awakening of their latent superhuman abilities, but rather the manifestations of their inhuman heritage which is a result of their ancestors mating with Oni.
>>46627545
Shiki is a Psionic. Part of a clan of Psionics. But he still has magic circuits.
Akiha isn't a Psionic, she is part demon.
The maids just have normal magic blood. And they was adopted into servitude because of said blood, with said abilities.
>>46627584
>The maids just have normal magic blood. And they was adopted into servitude because of said blood, with said abilities.
The maids also belonged to a branch of a clan of Psionics, so it's debatable whether their blood is magical or if it's a strange side-effect of their psionic herotage.
>>46615489
It's Dr. Philippus Aureolus Theophrastus Bombastus von Hohenheim. He's the only caster who's both an actual wizard and also not an idiot.
>>46615139
See me in Melty Blood
How about Dr. Who levels of science bullshit. Can anyone compare to that ?
>>46627545
>And then you have the Magicians, who can just do things that are impossible to replicate with magecraft but not with technology or science
It should be the other way around, I think. Magecraft is phenomena that can be accomplished through normal means, regardless of the method or resources required. Magic is plain impossible.
>>46629471
Technically you're both right. Magecraft is limited to doing things that are actually possible. A magus uses prana to force their will upon the world and make reality do what they want it to, but they can't make reality do things that are impossible. They can bend the rules but they can't break them.
True Magic on the other hand breaks all the rules and cannot be replicated by magecraft or technology. However there is a catch. You see, in the Nasuverse mystery is a power source. The more mysterious, unique, and unknown something is the more powerful it becomes. This is especially true for True Magic since it is explicitly based on doing the impossible. If the use of a True Magic or the knowledge of how it works becomes widespread the True Magic stops working because it is no longer considered impossible. There used to be many different kinds of True Magic but as human knowledge increased and we learned to do more with science and technology most True Magics were rendered obsolete, there are only 5 remaining in the modern day.
>>46608147
Wizards and sorcerers are the same thing.
>>46630267
>You see, in the Nasuverse mystery is a power source. The more mysterious, unique, and unknown something is the more powerful it becomes
Isn't this just about the opposite of how Heroic Spirits work? IIRC the whole reason Gil is such an obnoxious Sue is that he's the oldest and the most famous hero or whatever the fuck.
>>46608147
Mixture of both.
Nasuverse magic is dependent on a genetic trait, and magi are essentially posthumans who have optimized their bloodlines for spellcasting via eugenics and by passing on a 'crest' - a bundle of magical knowledge woven into the magus' own nervous system, which allows them to access the spells of their predecessor without actually leaning them, by simply running prana through the associated part of the crest.
However, a magi's activities and how they further their abilities resembles a D&D wizard more than a D&D sorcerer. They don't just get better powers by being more in tune with themselves like D&D sorcerers - their devote a ton of research to furthering their magic, then write what they've discovered into their crest, allowing their successor to access all this without the years of backbreaking study.
Pic related could be considered a modern nasuverse sorcerer. His magic is the result of a very weird quirk in his psychology that allows him to break many of the rules of magecraft. It does one specific thing, and is more about his fundamental nature than anything he's learned.
>>46630406
It doesn't exactly work that way. Mystery is a result of vagueness, but said vagueness doesn't imply or preclude a lack of fame. Greek Heroes are powerful because they are famous heroes of legend, but since legends have so many interpretations and versions, there is enough mystery surrounding each hero to grant him/her a decent level of mystery. Same is for Gil, who is the oldest known hero, to whom many great feats are attributed in his myths.
In other words, Mystery can be gained as a result of various exaggerations just as much as it is of actual mysteriousness. It's the cold hard facts that reduce Mystery and why Heroic Spirits of the past few centuries generally lack any Mystery - their lives are accurately recorded and analyzed, so there aren't many questions to ask or grand exaggerations to make.
Of course, there are some exceptions to this, such as Jack the Ripper, who is a relatively recent hero and yet has a high level of Mystery due to his identity never being revealed despite how well known he is. It's to the point where there isn't even a "real" Jack the Ripper Heroic Spirit, just an amalgamation of ghosts that vaguely fits his legend and the the mystery surrounding his identity given form.
>>46631150
There's the abortion ghosts, and then there's also the one that's the mystery in itself.
>>46627507
mass killing in civilized place will attract the modern police's attention and endangers the mystery of magic, so it will be dealt with, its in the story.
oh... you don't know they are doing the comic on the 3rd grail war?
And they did say about what happened in the other 2
1st: didn't really plan the war out, summoned a bunch of out of control straight servants, everybody died and the summoning failed.
2nd: actually implemented the rules as of now, , summoning succeeded but with no one lef to claim it.
>>46631150
Hence why Edison's noble phantasm is so powerful against ancient heroes.
>>46632966
didn't know that about the third but you kinda proved the point about the first two. we don't even know the summoners outside of the 3 main families and hell i don't even think they have given the servants for either war.
you have just listed all the knowledge that we have of those wars. you would think that with direct access to two of the three family records thru Rin and Sakura that we would know more but nope. hell we know more about the mirror world in Prism than the first two wars
>>46633813
Its said its pretty boring with nothing to write about, which is why they didn't do it.
Why do you have to know about them anyway? they serve no purpose to the narrative for any of the stories.
>>46633969
the use is for the name drop of heroes. sure they covered most of the good ones in the spinoffs now but at the time Fate was written the ability to explain a class thru past servant would have been good. Beside i want to know the first war servants just because it was a out of control fight
>>46634431
The definition for class is completely changed at this point.
It use to be you have to match something to be summoned.
Now the class works as something to weaken a servant so he joined the fight fairly.
Like Cu Cuchulain or Arthur will be carrying different gear if they are summoned as different class.
>>46634848
It's to the point where when they were making Fate/Extra CCC, Nasu explicitly said "Gilgamesh is too OP for classes. Just summon him as Gilgamesh and call it a day."
>>46635059
I wonder what Nasu is going to do with Gil in GO. Nasu wants Gil to be the strongest servant of them all but after introducing Grand Servants he's lagging behind.
>>46635059
did Cu get a boast from get summoned by Bazett since she is Irish? I know that if he was summoned in Ireland that he would have gotten a huge boast but I am curious if countrymen also gives a boast
>>46635718
Given that Artoria is datamined to be Grand Saber, it's pretty much inevitable that Gil and Enkidu are Grand Archer and Lancer.
>>46636064
Gilgamesh is weird in that he can legally be summoned under any class and maintains his power throughout. Most Servants can be summoned under multiple classes, but Gil's one of the few that suffers no real penalty regardless of the class he's in.
>>46636064
Enkidu's strongest class is Berserker. Gil's class doesn't even matter for him so for him to be the best representation of any specific class would utterly retarded. Grand Gilgamesh or Grand Hero would make more sense than him being Grand Archer.
>>46608147
What the fuck is up with her feet?
>>46636240
Takeuchi is infamously terrible as an artist.
This is Japanese Julius Caesar.
>>46636342
To be fair, he's drawn some really nice things lately. Check out his stuff on Danbooru.
>>46636382
Well it's not literally Julius Caesar while he was living, it's an interpretation of him in the modern age after the 2000 years he's been dead.
>>46636551
Not quite. He was summoned like that in the 1st century AD.
>>46636016
no, he is significantly weaker in Japan than in Ireland.
He will take out an extra noble phantasm
if he was summoned in Ireland
>>46636382
aside from being fat he does represent the great tactician and politician he was in life.
>>46636688
Well shit, maybe he just had some really good foresight on fashion.
>>46636688
>>46636825
If I remember right, Caesar himself says that Saber is not an optimal class for him, and thus he wasn't summoned in his full glory.
>>46636551
That rule doesn't usually apply except when the writer feels like adding a gimmick or another genderbend. Or else Nero would be a fat neckbeard instead of a tiny and energetic blonde girl.
>>46636551
I don't think Gaius Julius Caesar has at any point been held to be a gluttonous obese man.
>>46637090
Nero specifically liked being a cute grill. I think it even got brought up in Extra.
>Given the option to be a fat neckbeard and a cute grill, why would I choose anything but the latter?
Red Seibah is the embodiment of /a/.
>>46637148
You're just looking at him from the wrong angle.
>>46630427
Nasu's works always seem to do with making up convoluted rules regarding everything that makes the setting unique, then throwing in characters that break all of them just by existing.
>>46636981
Yeah, but
Why is he /fat/?
>>46637530
I dunno but I kinda love fat Caesar's design. To be honest I've never played the game and don't know anything about his character but he looks pretty good.
>>46637530
I dunno, bruv. Nasuverse Romans overall are a weird bunch.
>>46637350
He's 2-dimensional and his portrait doesn't have a backside. There's a total of one angle from which he can be looked at, and he's fat when looked at from that angle.
Why do technology-based heroes always have the best designs?
>>46636981
That's according to him. It's possible he's lying his arse off to make himself look better.
>>46637930
It's a reference to response line in-game when asked why he looks different from his historical depictions.
>>46638076
Historically Caeser is a tactician, not a "me strong" warrior.
Hence His comment on he is better as a commander than a front-line fighter.
>>46627695
Complete asshole, though.
>>46638260
I'm more irritated he's not bald.
>>46638540
How do you feel about Romulus being a JoJo character and Caligula being a /fit/izen?
>>46638585
Caligula and Romulus are hilarious and amazing. Caligula especially, he fucking SWIMS to Sicily or whatever.
>>46638600
>Caligula especially, he fucking SWIMS to Sicily or whatever.
Kinda funny considering Caligula was actually noted to not have been able to swim. Not that not being able to swim was an odd thing in his time, but in his case it was specifically pointed out that he couldn't swim. It had to do with the generally poor constitution that afflicted him throughout his life.
>>46638540
instead of the standard bald muscle badass, you now have a fat hair-badass.
A good change of pace for me.
>>46638512
She killed one of the two best Masters and is serving lolibitch, she deserves suffering.
>>46638585
Caligula and Romulus both at least look pretty baller.
>>46638722
Yeah, it is. A lot of the fun of the Emperor's in Fate is how oddly similar and different they are to their historical counterparts.
>>46638774
It kinda brings him down for me, that his two most favorite people in the world are Nero and Agrippina.
>>46639084
Honestly, the handling of Nero in the game is atrocious, and they admitted it.
>Boudica
>"Nero had me tortured and my daughters raped"
>"But it's okay, she meant well and she has a ~good heart~"
>>46639163
Sakurai is such an awful writer. I really hope that no character that I like is included in the Jerusalem chapter as he's just going to ruin everything about them.
