How do people in a fantasy World differentiate animals and monsters?
Does it shoot lasers?
If not, it's an animal.
You eat animals.
Monsters eat you.
It's pretty simple.
>>46420902
an animal is a monster you have gotten bored of that can't be considered a person.
>Did it try to bite//maim/disembowel me?
>If yes, monster.
>If no, animal.
>>46420929
Are you implying animals can't eat you and you can't eat monsters?
>>46420947
>Housecats are monsters
I'm fine with that.
>>46420902
This is mostly a D&D problem where you have stuff like fairly common Owlbears and Griffons that have an actual ecological niche.
If monsters worked more like in myth, where they were fairly unique instances of a creature, this wouldn't be a problem.
>>46420964
No sir. You are confusing cause and effect.
Because I eat it, it's an animal.
>>46420929
>>46420947
Are Crocodiles monsters?
>>46420964
He's implying that anything that eats you goes in the monster category, and otherwise is an animal.
Cows are animals, rampaging dire bulls are monsters. Cats are animals, tigers are predominantly monsters. etc.
if it ain't human or elf it's a monster
>>46420947
>every single animal in existence is a friendly little baby rabbit
>>46421018
In DnD, yes. Until you're so high level that when the DM drops them on you your ownly response is that it's a waste of time.
If it has a place in the natural order and isn't overtly magic it's an animal
Otherwise it's a monster
>>46421061
>If it has a place in the natural order
What the fuck is the natural order?
>>46420929
>>46420964
I was going to make a post about bears, but, thinking about it, I can see how a peasant in Faerun or whatever could consider a bear or a wolf a monster on its own.
That said, I'm going with the general D&Desque distinction of "having magic powers". I always found stupid that an owlbear is considered a "magical beast" in 3.5 where the only difference with a regular bear is beak.
>>46421010
Again
>implying you can't eat a monster
Dragons taste like chicken.
>>46421043
To a fantasy-land peasant? Yes. Anything with big claws and sharp teeth is pretty fucking monstrous.
>>46421095
I can't eat monster because when I am in a position to turn them into meals, they aren't a real threat to me anymore. Just something to hunt.
That is the point of the definition.
>>46420902
Animals are natural, only have animal intelligence, and are native to the Prime Material.
If it's the result of magic, can talk and isn't Human, or comes from Hell, it's a monster
>>46421134
>Animals are natural
but how are people in the average fantasy land suppose to know?
>>46421018
No but aligators are.
>>46421116
Also, I must add that I would make an exception for anything that can speak or otherwise prove human-level intelligence.
Animals will never be animals for that reason.
>>46421075
Something druids keep yapping about.
>>46421061
Are the Dragons in that docufiction from 2004 not monsters since they had a place in the natural order?
>>46420941
I want to re-affirm this.
It seems the only consistent way of naming these things is "an animal is a monster who got boring"
>>46421183
It's a stupid idea by game designers who've never studied biology.
>>46421162
but alligators are smaller than most crocodiles.
If its in the animals section of the monster manual, its an animal. Otherwise its a monster.
Alternatively if a monster hunter kills it, its a monster.
>>46421162
Wat?
Gators are fat and lazy. They're the reptile equivalent of a cow.
Crocs are the ones that people lose limbs to.
>>46420964
Laius has spoken.
>>46420902
>Can it talk?
>Does it go out of its way to eat people?
>Was it made by magic?
If the answer to any of those three is "yes" then it's a monster.
>>46420902
I would dare say that "monster" would be a term that a creature gets branded with after it causes too much nuisance. Once it gets to the point that the entire species is considered too hostile to live in close proximity it is considered a monster.
Wolves are controllable as a pest and cause limited nuisance to human settlements.
Dire Wolves rekk yr shit so you call the local murderhobos and other socially destructive magpies in human form and send them off to the woods. Best case scenario the murderhobos come back and the Dire Wolves are no longer a problem, Worse case scenario the Dire Wolves are still around and the local murderhobo population drops.
>>46420902
I dont think they made this distinction on medieval era.
>>46421387
Best case scenario:
Murder hobos and dire wolves kill each other off.
Worst case scneario:
Murder hobos decide the wolves aren't worth the trouble and stay in town while the wolves stay in the outskirts.
>>46421161
Not really sure they're supposed to since the distinction largely exists for the purpose of crunch and rules. Maybe wizards know for sure but the average peasant probably can't tell when the line is blurred. I imagine there's a lot of trial and error involved.
But as far as the game is concerned, creature type really only exists to tell stuff like whether your +2 animal bane weapon hurts it extra or not.
General rule peasants likely follow: if it comes from our world, isn't fully sapient, and a wizard didn't do it, then it's probably an animal. Use silver and mistletoe anyway just in case.
>>46421203
Alternatively, a concept used in a fantasy setting by fantasy people who also don't know modern biology.
Keep in mind most fantasy settings don't know about germs either.
>>46421018
yes
even elephants agree
>>46420902
A monster is anything that is far better at destroying your life than it aught or has any right to be.
>>46421505
The thing is there is no natural order. When a dragon catches a bison to eat, then that dragon evidently has found its niche.
There is not a single animal that would stop hunting a different kind of animal just because the latter kind is close to extinction. Instead what happens is that the former kind doesn't find a lot of prey any more and goes hungry for a few years and experiences plummeting population numbers.
>>46421591
>The thing is there is no natural order.
in real life, but we're not talking about real life
it's a common concept in mythology and religion, and by extension it has a niche in fantasy fiction.
>>46421512
gotta get that delicious elephant nose
>>46421591
I guess you missed all the times I used the word "fantasy".
Nor did I imply the concept was true and valid, just that people in those settings hold it to be. These are the same people who likely believe in folk religion and carry good luck charms to ward off the troubles.
>>46421427
Shit, I didn't think of that one. I am the worse town mayor.
>>46421183
How do they identify whether a creature is part of the natural order or not?
>>46420929
>>46420902
With spells, numb nuts. "Detect Monster" won't light up an animal, and trying to hold a conversation with a monster via "Speak with Animal" gets boring and one-sided fast.
>>46421768
if they keep their magic powers when they kill it, it's not
>>46421700
Apparently this is pretty normal
>>46421870
What kind of shitty druids aren't allowed to kill animals at all, and how can they have the gall to talk about the natural order if they don't participate in it?
>>46421512
Who even wins in this situation?
My guess is that mama elephant is strong enough to drag it onto land and stomp it.
The question here would be: Do different groups of Druids ever argue about the status of monsters and animals?
Holy shit... I bet there are Druids heretics, like untouchable holy men, who can walk peacefully with Minotaur, Dragons, Griffins and nameless Elder Things like some kind of Druid Jesus. They petition their Gods for the sake of monsters, arguing in their favor and protection. Have funky Druid magic that calms the monsters as an aura. Maybe a cult trying to build a promised land, attempting to build stone circles that mind rape monsters into a more docile, less destructive, state.
>>46420902
You don't.
You just kill it if it's trying to kill you.
>>46422036
Cult of Druid heretics bent on mass mind raping the entire world into a new balance. Everything has its intelligence stripped away and their instincts curbed to fit in with a new, perfect, natural law. Humans reduced back to primitive cave dwellers only just advanced enough to paint cave walls and incapable of questioning the rule of the New Druid Order. Georgia Guide Stoneesk "Be not a cancer upon this earth" commandments. Elves reduced to something akin to deer, or other swift herbivore woodland fauna
>>46421768
>Does the druid hate it?
>If yes then monster
Fucking penguins are the dumbest fucking monsters of all their unnatural fucking blood should be genocided from this plane gaia damn it!
>>46422305
>dwarfs make their saving throws and become the new masters of the world
>>46421427
Worst worst case scenario:
The Wolves conince the murder hobos that the village is evil and contains better loot. The hobos offer no argument.
>>46422347
Naa Dwarves are the only species that actually improves. They go from being volatile hairy drunken cave dwelling creatures to hairy cave dwelling creatures that like a glass of wine with their dinner.
>>46421236
You have that backwards. Some of the bigger crocs like saltwaters are bigger than most alligators, sure, but in general it's the gators who are bigger.
>>46420902
D&D is the only time this distinction is really necessary (and made).
In every other system, either the distinction is obvious - animals are animals, while vampiric monsters and undead and drink blood - or the distinction is not made. And intelligent, talking gryphon is just another kind of animal, although one that can think and talk and be reasoned with.
>>46420902
Why do you ask these questions when you know there's no single correct answer?
Animals came to be as the result of natural selection and evolution in their habitat.
Monsters got summoned from another plane, dredged up from the abyss, created from vile alchemy experiments, decreed to exist by the gods, mutated by arcane runoff, or corrupted by demonic influence.
Also possibly invasive species
>An invasive species is a plant, fungus, or animal species that is not native to a specific location (an introduced species), and which has a tendency to spread to a degree believed to cause damage to the environment, human economy or human health.
Kudzu is a plant monster
>>46423138
for the purposes of discussion, anon.
You don't make a whole thread if you have a question with a simple answer. You ask in a general or something.
>>46423157
Yes because the average ignorant peasant clearly understand concepts such as natural selection and evolution. This thread is not about the difference between the two, it's about how ANYONE in a fantasy setting is suppose to tell the difference between the two.
>>46423227
Peasants don't need to understand the difference. To them, if a particularly dangerous animal gets out of control, it's a monster. If a particularly docile monster can be domesticated and farmed, it's an animal.
Most any scientist or mage could easily tell the difference, but they're too aloof to go around informing peasants when their monsters are just really big bears and when their livestock are slowly turning them into the Faceless Lord's slaves.
>>46423157
This post makes me try to envision natural ecosystems in the outer planes, and this conversation taking place in some djinn city in the elemental plane of fire
>Are giant burning salamanders really monsters? Maybe they're just really dangerous large animals?
>>46420902
Monsters in my world have a magical stink to them that differentiates them.
>>46423138
>why
>there's no answer
Because /tg/: 300 replies guaranteed.
>>46423199
What is there to discuss? People can make up settings in their minds that have whatever facts and rules they want, and they are all equally valid no matter how strange.
There won't be any dialogue because no one can honestly say a given idea for a fictional thing is wrong. People will just pitch their own ideas because they like to see their own words on screen, and leave without reading any other replies.
>>46423775
whatever people have been discussing for 60 posts.
I mean, self explanatory man.
>>46423775
You can say that about just about anything that gets discussed on this board that isn't Storytime, <x> Quest or <x> General.
Yet the catalogue is still full of threads.
>>46423775
No one is looking for any one "valid" answer.
Have you considered that maybe some of us haven't thought about this issue and might be looking for ways it applies to the monster/animal dichotomy of our own settings, and the ramifications thereof?
I mean, shit, you're close-minded and don't like fluff. We get it. Why don't you just close the thread instead of sitting around in here trying to tell us this nearly 100+ post discussion we're having is pointless?
>>46420902
Only the welsh fuck animals.
>>46424151
Always carry a welshman around with you so you are properly equipped to tell the difference
>>46424240
no, read what he said carefully.
not "the welsh only fuck animals", but "only the welsh fuck animals".
They could -also- fuck monsters, so a welshman could not be used as a valid monster detection system.
Rather, you should get a slutty non-welshman. He will refuse to do the animals, and thus, by process of elimination, you know which are animals and which are monsters.
>>46421043
To a fantasy person yes a vicious big cat is comparably monstrous to viscous squirrlbugdog
>>46421768
If they can shapeshift into it or command it, it's part of the natural order.
>>46420902
Talk to Animals spell: if it works, it's an animal. If it doesn't work, it's a monster.
>>46420902
You listen to the nature goddess. If she says that thing doesn't have a place in the cycle of life, it's a monster.
>>46421768
Magic sense.
>>46420902
It's relative to the culture.
>>46421079
Bears are obviously a kind of horrific monstrosity. Known as DogBears, they are aberrations with the body of an Owlbear (a natural animal) and a head similar to that of a dog.
>>46422036
>>46422305
Well they have spells that work with animals and shapeshifts that work with animals. But its important to note that contrary to people thinking druids = PETA, druids are protective of humans, monsters, animals, and plants alike, so long as they're not disruptive to the balance. Yes, agricultural civilization, especially the Iron Age style civilization D&D tends to have, is typically perfectly legitimate and worthy of protection to most druids.
>>46420902
I'd imagine "Monster," would be applied to things that did unnatural stuff, or had unnatural features. Bear? That's an animal. Bear-like creature that's ~10 feet on all fours with blade-like metal spines instead of fur that can petrify you with it's stare? That's a monster.
>>46420964
>>46421306
>>46420902
The death count.
Anything more than the odd unlucky bastard every 3-4 years is a curse or monsters
>>46422007
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVAMnirC72c
A crocodile can't plausibly kill an adult elephant, an elephant is just way too strong and heavy for the croc to do anything serious to it.
Though I imagine having a huge fucking toothmonster latch on to your fucking nose is pretty horrifying, even for a 10,000+lb African elephant.
Though apparently sometimes they do lose bits of their trunks to crocodiles (or more commonly antelope snares).
>>46420902
Monsters are fabled creatures that come out rarely and ruin villages. They're also usually creations of a wizard or mad god. Animals are entirely natural and though they may attack settlements, they also reproduce and exist without humanoid interference.
>>46421162
>>46426378
But, what if the animals are made by the gods as well?
>>46426535
Were they mad gods?
>>46420902
>Monster
Intelligent, humanoid or otherwise giantic shit.
An unicorn, despite being extremely rare, would not be considered a monster, just some rare animal that would get you a lot of money if you kill it before it disembowels you with its horn.
Elves cojld, depending on the context, be classified as monsters, just as Orcs or golems would.
A tiger or a small wyrm would probably be considered animals to the people that inhabit the creature's natural habitat, but everyone would consider a huge ass dragon, intelligent or not, a supernatural monster, just like cavemen did with mammoths or Native Americans with horses.
>>46426778
but then humans, not being very different from orcs and elves, would also be classified as monsters too.
>>46427026
Elves are vastly different from humans. Crazy vast lifespan, eternal youth (and the hormonal distinctions thereby) and of course... they don't sleep. There's also that they can either see in darkness or have uncanny low light vision. They also tend to live in creepy as fuck forests. Who knows how they keep entertained, but its probably not pleasant. They're about as alien as you can get.
>>46427026
Yes, maybe, depending on the context. A Wood Elf tribe who sees a group of lumberjack enter their forest and killing the trees would surely see them as monsters, whereas an Orc tribe who raids them weak 'umies twice a month would not see them as monsters.
The thing with intelligent humanoids sharing the planet with humans, is that we can't really know how to classify them, as the last time we shared our planet with intelligent non-homo sapiens (the Neanderthals) we sorta killed them all and raped the survivors until their traits completely disappeared from the gene-pool.
Maybe humans would see Orcs the same way Europeans saw the Mongols.
>>46427192
Elves don't sleep? Welp, I learned something new today.
>>46427260
In Tolkien and most incarnations of D&D.
>>46426333
>Is this really how the elephant got its long trunk?
>Who knows!
>If you're an elephant, watch out for crocodiles
what the fuck am I watching
>>46426003
Bug? That's an insect. Bug that shoots boiling acid out of its butt? That's bombardier bug.
>>46421941
>What kind of shitty druids aren't allowed to kill animals at all,
3rd Edition Druids.
>and how can they have the gall to talk about the natural order if they don't participate in it?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
>>46420902
>can it kill you easily
>if yes, it's a monster, find the adventurers
>if no, it's an animal, kill it and eat it.
>>46420902
In my setting, animals are Natural beings - ie created by the Primal Gods, or evolved ala real life
Monsters are things created by New Gods, or by the other races via experiments
Dragons are not Monsters, but Chimeras are
Minotaurs are not Monsters, but Ghouls are
etc
>>46427499
It's a nose pun bro
>>46421030
>implying filthy xeno doesn't count as abomination
>>46420902
Animals are natural and usually exist within certain biomes of the world and have a developed ecosystem.
Monsters are unnaturally created, exist in small numbers within very specific areas, and have no effect on the ecosystem that surrounds (aside from preying on humans).
>>46420902
Monsters are really scary animals.
