>"I want to play a Good aligned character who's fine with the concept of slavery!"
>>46305680
Work will set you free.But then it actually does.
>slavery is used as a punishment for severe criminals
>slavery is only temporary, e.g. for murdering someone you're sentenced to 40 years of slavery but not for life
>slaves still get basic human rights, owners of slaves must feed them sufficient nutrition and basic living spaces
>physical punishment must not be so extreme as to cause debilitating injuries
this is probably more lawful neutral but it's an example of how a character may justify slavery as a concept and still be non-evil
Depends on the society and kind of slavery. When jailhouses are too much of a hassle to build and maintain why not make the crimebreaker into a slave for a while? It's like community service but someone owns them.
Same with the asshole who doesn't pay taxes or his debts.
It only gets straight up evil if the slavery is indefinite with no way out and your kids are born slaves too.
>>46305680
Eh. If you're talking about a Roman-style system of slavery, I could see an LG character not thinking it was the best system out of a bad lot, or not just really thinking about it much.
"Fine with" isn't the same as "in favour of".
>>46305680
Play in a socity which is fine with that concept.
And be nice with the slaves.
>>46305680
>the society in which the character was born and grew up has always made use of slaves and the character literally doesn't know any different
I don't see the problem.
Also low quality bait
>>46305680
>Lawful Good
>>46305680
In the ancient world, enslaving your enemies was considered the merciful option, since genocide was the alternative.
>>46305680
>DnD alignment system
>binding it to modern (western) morals
>playing in medieval setting
>expecting to be LG/xG without breaking with society
of course this will not work out properly , make some use of subjective morality and implement alignment only as a roleplaying support
>>46305680
>slaves are basically normal workers, but have no say in whether they want to keep working or not.
>>46305680
Okay.
Daily reminder that there's nothing inherently evil about the concept of owning people.
>>46305680
>I'm playing a slave who's been brainwashed into controlling a nation of other brainwashed slaves and holding their best interests at heart, and who's goal at the start of the game is to find someone who has sufficient mental capability of becoming brainwashed to do the same!
>This is not quite Good but only because the system could be made better.
To be fair I did have the nation already in my setting, but it's going to be a wild ride to DM.
>>46305680
Djinni have slavery on their culture, yet they are chaotic good.
>>46305801
In today's world it should never be legalized again outside of criminal punishment though. You'd need to have that shit locked down tight, regulated, and heavily restricted otherwise you'd get screwed by the contract everytime. It's a headache inducing issue that's best left untouched.
"I want to play a young catfolk slave who was treated nicely by her masters."
>>46305822
Djinn don't have slaves according to Al-Qadim.
>>46305801
moar liek:
Daily reminder that the alignment system is bullshit
>>46305865
The concept I'm using in the world I'm running:
Slavery is a form of forced debt collection. The labor of a slave is evaluated at a certain value and will eventually lead to his release. The slave also enjoys basic human rights. Killing your slaves (or mistreating them) is going to get you into a lot of trouble.
You enter slavery either by:
1. being unable to pay your bills (which makes the amount of debt very obvious)
2. by breaking the law (in which case the state will sell you on the slave market)
Your crime determines your debt. Of course you'll be sold for much less than that lest your new owner only loses money on you.
3. by being taken prisoner during war.
Your debt is determined by your rank in the enemy army and your abilities. This kind of slavery is possibly the most difficult to get out of unless you're just a low-ranking grunt.
Slaves may be used in war, but they cannot be forced into life-threatening situations. If they choose to risk their lives (and sign the relevant papers), their labor-value is raised dramatically.
>>46305822
>slavery
>Chaotic
Hang on.
>>46305921
Forgot to add: Debt is hereditary. So you can be born into slavery. But sooner or later the debt will be gone.
>>46305879
well , I would treat my catgirl "nicely"
>inb4 furry , she is 50% at worst , luz and polt are on the same level
Put criminals to temporary slavery and call it Community Service.
Trick kids into slavery by giving them huge loans for their education that they need to pay off by working. Their education will never pay off.
There are ways to make slavery work even for good people.
>>46305952
>giving them huge loans for their education
What kind of game are you running where there's universities available for everybody?
>>46305939
Flora has freakin' paws, dude.
And she's 11.And pregnant.
>>46305801
>Daily reminder that the people who think there's nothing wrong with slavery are invariably people who have the least experience with it.
>>46305680
Speaking of which, I can see slavery being something of a forced labor under the patronage of the state or certain cult as a form of imprisonment/punishment, which may be hereditary. These people are not free, but instead seen as wards of the state/temple. Naturally, this gives them certain protection. I can see a good character generally being okay with that. Things get a bit hairier with inherited slave status, but I think the way alignments work, you can be good overall and have a few ideas that do not match.
Speaking of which, in a state with an absolute monarch, everyone is essentailly a slave of the state, the monarch simply chooses not to exercise his/her rights most of the time.
>>46305680
>"I want to play anything other than a skeleton!"
>>46305982
>hurr durr my great great granddaddy was a slave until lincoln freed him at age three, probably (i never did dat cracka shit n traced my history n sheit) so i knows slavery first hand gibme rep'ratins
>>46305982
Because you would have more experience with slavery than that poster...?
>>46305982
Daily reminder that there is little difference between how capitalism treats some people and good kinds of slavery, other than in name.
>>46306020
>>46306023
>>46306029
>>46305982
election years are worse than summer
>>46305680
Does your fantasy world allow slavery?
Is it an institution that almost everyone becomes familiar with from when they are born?
Then yes, a LG character who has mostly solid ethics otherwise is feasible. A NG character is also feasible. A CG character is absolutely impossible.
The thing is, they don't need to be perfect exemplares of their alignments to be those alignments. Good characters can have flaws or put certain issues above others. Neutral characters can have biases. Evil characters can perform good acts for both personal and pragmatic reasons. Stop treating the alignment system like its rigid, because doing that breaks the alignment system.
Besides, this COULD be an opportunity for character growth. Maybe his character could be convinced to change his mind or be forced to make a decision. Maybe there are other characters in the party who feel opposite of him, thus creating personal conflicts between the characters. Think about it, anon
>>46305722
Isn't this basically the modern prison system in many western countries, considering that they make them work making license plates or whatever.
>>46306049
But Anon,it is summer.Mate
>>46305921
>>46305930
That sounds like a pretty reasonable system, and I would have no problem with it.
>>46305976
If it got a snout , then it is out
polt has paws too, and is not considered furry by most
about the 11years old and pregnant part... yeah didnt know that
>>46305680
>"I want to play a Good aligned character who's fine with the concept of slavery!"
Yes, that's fine.
What the fuck else are you supposed to do with criminals?
Lock them inside a cell for 30 years and wait until they "learn their lesson" or "die"?
>>46306063
*in the USA
>>46306074
even worse. I write full time so I lose track
>>46306094
Her species does only have a natural lifespan of 30 or so, though.
>>46306215
why tho
>>46305680
>Implying we mustn't prepare the beggars, whores, addicts, and lepers for the journey that lies ahead.
>>46306273
What do you mean 'why'? Because they're not human, so they don't have to have human lifespans.
>>46305680
>There's nothing wrong with keeping pets.
>>46306283
as far as I know only the smaller kobolds have 30 years , while polt is of a bigger species (human sized) which should make for at least 50 years in my book
>>46306273
That's the typical lifespan of a tiger in general.
>>46305691
Did you mean "Arbeit Macht Frei"?
>>46306327
I'm talking about Flora.
>>46305680
>>46306096
Good point. The modern prison system is a relatively recent innovation; previously, punishments for severe (and sometimes even petty) crimes often consisted of exile, permanent mutilation or death. In those circumstances, humane slavery could genuinely be played as merciful.
>>46306366
okay
>>46305680
>These people are too poor to survive on their own, or their kingdom has been conquered and their homes have been destroyed.
>Slavery ensures they'll be fed and have a roof over their head, and in exchange they work for their owner.
If slavery is a normal thing in their society, good-aligned characters have ample room to be fine with slavery and still stay within the realm of good-alignment. The act of slavery isn't something every good-aligned character would take issue with, it's the mistreatment of slaves that a good-aligned character would take issue with.
>>46305680
>They need to learn humility and redeem themselves for their sins/the sins of their father so that they may return to the light. It is a service to them for us to take care of them.
There. You can build an entire Lawful Good society around this concept.
>>46306604
>>46306553
The problem with these and 'noble slavery' is that it never works and people never want to give up slaves.
>>46305680
Nothing wrong with that.
Slavery was commonly practiced up until recently. It's still practiced, just not commonly.
>>46306604
>sins of their father
Evil society
>forever DM
>in my own setting gnomes and halflings are just slave races, especially deep gnomes
>players all hate gnomes too so we laugh at the manlet slavery
>>46306718
10/10 setting, would play
>>46306610
Believing in an ideal despite it not being lived up to is perfectly alright, if you ask me. People do it all the time in the real world, so I don't see why you couldn't have a LG character who does it. They could be playing a champion of reform, trying to bring the current system more in line with what it is supposed to be, for example.
>>46305879
Any reference to Twokinds seems to spur mild discussion. Is it worth reading or is it total shit?I enjoyed Jack for the grimderp so I don't really have high standards
>>46306787
S' pretty good. Very noticeable improvement in art across the series.Markiplier plugs it occasionally, because his brother makes it.
>I want to play a good character who frees slaves then does nothing for them afterwards
>>46306787
It's a fanservice comic that doesn't show bits. Nice art but ultimately shallow.
>>46306864
Sounds chaotic evil to me desu.
>>46306864
"You are free now."
So....what should i do with my freedom then? Are you going to start hiring tired old men and women under your payroll? What class of citizens are we? We have no fortune to speak of, so are you going to give us a little money to get started? What if we want to leave? Can we just leave?
".......You are free!"
>>46306411
Source?
>>46306890
>>46306903
>Why don't you start working for me for a wage that allows you to barely feed yourself?
>I see you've been mining your whole life, so you are probably pretty good at that.
>I have a mine here. Why don't you start right now?
>>46306958
...........Yo bird boys, gimme a dagger and one o' dem masks!
>>46306956
Tate no Yuusha no Nariagari
>>46306976
Thanks for the quick response!
>>46306956
Tate no Yuusha no Nariagari.
It's one of those 'MMO players get sucked into a fantasy world' things, but in this case the guy gets framed for rape and robbed in the first few days there.
He is also the hero the kingdom deserves, because the other three are useless douches.
>>46306995
Despite the interesting premise it's kind of shitty.
>>46305982
>>46306020
>>46306023
He could wax lyrical,
his knowledge was almost empirical,
of oppression from the present back to slavery times!
>>46306958
I guarantee the ex-slaves would rather rebel and become murderhobos than work in a mine as freedmen. Working in a silver or gold mine was a death sentence in the ancient world. And the worst criminals in Rome were sent to work the Hispanian mercury mines in chain gangs where they'd die even faster.
>>46305680
What about enslaving evil races? What if their work is to rebuild what they destroyed through their evil deeds?
>>46307158
>blaming foot soldiers for the bad rulings of their mad king
>>46307174
>blaming the king if he has obvious mental health issues
>>46307174
>making excuses for literally inhuman monsters
>>46307184
But I didn't. I'm just saying you can't put the soldiers to work as punishment and consider that a good deed.
>>46307174
>doesn't understand what evil race means
>>46307196
>not checking your humanoid privilege
>>46307201
Why didn't these soldiers overthrow the mad king?
>>46307234
Because they believe in birthright and order.
>>46305680
Chattel slavery is not the only form of slavery. A system designed primarily to repay debts and get use out of prisoners can be perfectly morally acceptable even if it might offend your modern sensibilities. That said, if the only form of slavery in setting IS chattel, probably with being upset about.
>>46307257
>they believe in birthright and order.
But if they believed in slavery they couldn't possibly be good?
>>46307174
It's not my fault they were born chaotic evil
>>46306063
>Isn't this basically the modern prison system in many western countries, considering that they make them work making license plates or whatever.
The work is voluntary and they do actually get paid. Not a whole lot, considering their shelter, eating, school, treatment, etc is all paid for, but they do get paid.
Now back when they ran actual chain gangs, you would have a point. That's pretty much slave labor.
>>46307108
>I guarantee the ex-slaves would rather rebel and become murderhobos than work in a mine as freedmen.
But this is pretty much what happened in the US. Slaves were freed, but because they had no other skills, no experience, no saved up money, no education, no willing investors, no family "back home", and a society that discriminated against them, the majority ended up having to go back to pretty much the same work they were already doing- only this time with meager pay.
>>46307335
Thank Andrew "shitcunt" Johnson for that
>>46305722
Arguing from a feudalistic mindset:
Make them slaves of the state. Not privately owned. No one man should be given power over another, but since the king is divinely appointed, his edicts will be just and fair. The state can own the convicts and they can be rehabilitated via their work.
In a magic setting, a simple geas could be used that basically puts them under Asimov's 3 laws for the duration of their sentence. Maybe invert second and third, given it is for people and not machines (fuck you warforged).
I could get behind the kingdom with this outline being still considered lawful good.
>>46305736
This is true - I think of a lot of religious texts that don't rock the boat, but very much so don't speak in favor.
>>46307391
>In a magic setting, a simple geas could be used that basically puts them under Asimov's 3 laws for the duration of their sentence. Maybe invert second and third, given it is for people and not machines (fuck you warforged).
At first glance, Warforged may look like clank clank armored machines, but from the Eberron fluff, they're more like artificial life: more like a hommunculus than a golem or shield guardian.
I always compare them to Frankenstein's monster.
>>46305986
i weep for you
>>46305736
>Eh. If you're talking about a Roman-style system of slavery, I could see an LG character not thinking it was the best system out of a bad lot, or not just really thinking about it much.
Most slavery in the world has been "Roman style". The chattel slavery of the trans-Atlantic slave trade colors our common perception of slavery, but it honestly was the exception rather than the rule.
>>46307335
In my country we did this:
>All male slaves can join the army for the standard pay, if they have family, they could claim the son/daughter if they married the woman and they would all be free.
>No more kids born slaves, they get basic ed by the state.
It helped with the independence war.
The last time I ran a game that I worldbuilt for, slavery wasn't seen as particularly evil - but it was banned for economic reasons, largely because it'd devalue the labor of the free farmers that make up the bulk of the agrarian society.
>>46306839
Did not know this. I occasionally watch Markiplier and enjoy him, but apparently not enough to have caught this. Two kinds is probably the comic I've read longest... Maybe second to QC, but I am about ready to quit that one.
Fun fact: The Torah, AKA the basis of all Abrahamic religions, offered slavery as the canon punishment for petty crimes such as theft. A slave would pay his debt to society by literally working for another until they paid their debt.
>>46306903
The fortune aspect is a good one, perhaps have a portion of the debt they have to work off (provided one of the debt based systems) paid back to them at the end of service. They owe 1000 GP, work for 1100 GP, get 100 back at the end as seed money. Assume all assets seized as first part of paying off debt.
>>46307561
They also had the concept of Jubilee, a celebration every so often where all slaves (or at least slaves who were one of the 12 tribes) were automatically freed.
>>46305801
Daily reminder that objective moral truth exists and that people who support slavery are on the wrong side of it
>>46307604
Yup, and there were certain rights slaves were owed. Plus you had to free a slave after so and so years of service and upon freeing them you had to give them a gift consisting of money, new clothes and some food so that they could start their new life cleanly.
On the other hand enslaving foreigners after conquering them was totally legit so it was not just a replacement for jail.
The Jews and the Romans actually had a lot in common. A bit ironic.
>>46307624
>Objective morality
One of the few notions more ridiculous than God or free will. I oppose slavery but I am not deluded enough to think that my morality is ingrained in the very universe.
>>46305680
Like the Founding Fathers?
>>46307436
I am aware, but my sentence implied that machines were not people and vice versa, warforged are constructs even if they are ensouled (which I believe is true in fluff), but are still people. They were the counterpoint, so I lampshaded.
Now the joke is dissected, but also thoroughly dead.
>>46307624
>and that people who support slavery are on the wrong side of it
Billions of humans who came before us can't be wrong bro
>>46307624
If objective moral truth didn't exist, how would detect evil function?
Check mate moral relavatists.
>>46307689
What kind of low quality bait is this?
>Billions of humans thought the earth was flat and that magic sky dad controlled everything
>>46307561
Importantly, they were enslaved if they couldn't offer repayment. It was still the second choice.
>>46307714
Spoiler: Detect Evil is just Detect Racial Purity. Paladins are literally Nazis. How did you let filthy krauts fool you for so long? Enlist now and help us stop Jerry.
>>46307723
>Billions of humans thought the earth was flat
Shit that never happened- the post
Hi. I also rape people.
>>46305680
That's cool. Alignment is the sum of your actions, not the source. As long as the guy is otherwise upstanding, and certainly as long as he never mistreats his slaves, then he should go right ahead.
>>46307456
Damn those Americans. Ruining everything.
>>46305680
You know, it's actually very easy. I'm a noble, Lawful Good guy from a patriachal society. I am an ubermensch. Everyone else is chattel, like unruly children who must be coralled by a firm but fair master.
I am also a gigantic asshole.
>>46307801
>Anything from Greek mythology
>Good
Nigga you get some funky ass shit as morals if you think Herc is anything other than chaotic neutral.
>>46307756
Well, yes and no. Anyone with a proper education would have known that the Earth was round. But not everyone had a proper education.
>>46307826
I think you mean the Europeans.
>>46307826
Hey, Brazil was big into it to. The Brazilians didn't even release their slaves until the 1890s.
>>46307846
Well, he's a hero in the Greek mythology. I mean, even gods are dicks there, so he's probably the best example of "good" person in that system of values. Also, christians get out of my board REEEEE.
>>46307859
The Saudi Arabians didn't release their slaves until the 1960s.
>>46305680
play lawful good. Make it the law of the land and now the character has to follow that law. Slaves are property not people.
>>46305680
Alignment is fucking stupid, but you could absolutely do this. Aristotelian and Nietzschean ethics both condone slavery.
Furthermore, the notion of "forced work without pay" is hardly evil on its face. Schools, prisons, community organizations, the state, and many other institutions practice slavery in some form or another.
The way I see it, keeping slaves is not only moral, but it's morally correct.
>>46307956
>Nietzscean ethics condone slavery
You what?
>>46307456
Slavery in the ancient world, including Rome, was mostly chattel slavery. People in debt bondage were the exception in Rome, not the rule.
>>46307985
Ubermensch are the rare exception who should lord over the worthless untermensch, and if that means engaging in literal slavery then so be it. Such is the basis of the Nietzschean ethic.
>>46307897
Heracles has no good or lawful bone in his oil covered body. Theseus and Jason are closest to being good anything and almost everybody else rapes, murders and steals all the time (from the ones i remember).Also i am an autistic, fat neckbeard (read:atheist)
>>46307940
>The Saudi Arabians didn't release their slaves until the 1960s.
Slavery is still totally a thing. Any place with a forced labor without pay is practicing state sponsored slavery.
To say nothing of the massively exploitative practices still going on in southern Asia, South America, and central Africa, and the means by which thousands of refugees and immigrants into the US and EU are tricked/forced into slavery to pay off various debts.
>>46308017
>Heracles has no good or lawful bone in his oil covered body.
according to what measure of good and lawful
where are these defined
>>46305801
A is a.
From this it is fairly simple to arrive at the sound logical conclusion that any relationship between individuals must follow the principle of non violence, or no force.
Slavery inherently involves force. Therefore slavery of inherently unethical.
>>46308065
>From this it is fairly simple to arrive at the sound logical conclusion that any relationship between individuals must follow the principle of non violence, or no force.
What utter nonsense. Go back to /pol/ you pathetic fucking lolbertard
>>46308007
That's not what he went on about at all. The ubermensch is one who casts aside conventions to do whatever it is that they believe to be right, but there was never a suggestion that they should believe any one thing in particular to be right. Nietzsche himself went on about how he personally believes that the whole "prey and predator" thing was a waste of time, that the world would be more pleasant if the magnificent blonde beast got along with its prey instead of hunting it.
>>46308017
>Theseus and Jason are closest to being good anything
>Implying Odysseus wasn't the toppest Greek bro
>>46308079
It's not about what Nietzsche personally believes, it's about the ethical distinction he made between the enslaved Christfag sheeple and the true master race of free men. Is exploitation encouraged by master morality? I think it's certainly /implicitly/ encouraged, since one of the primary differences between master and slave morality is that masters aren't bound by "conventional" norms.
>>46308054
Lawful=Orderly. He abides by no rules other than "Me Herc, me stronk, me wrestle, me write fancy poetry".
Good=Selfless, seeks to give rather than take. All Herc does is for himself and himself alone, not to mention that sometimes he does things at the expense of others.
Also he kills on a whim.
>>46308100
Lawful Neutral, not good, but still the most based Greek hero.
>>46305680
> Be OP
> want to stir up a shitstorm
> creates perfect bait for edgefags
> watches the thread go apeshit
Meh/10.
>>46308130
>what is moral relativismAztec priests did nothing wrong by the way
>>46308130
>Lawful=Orderly
>Good=Selfless
Please show me where they are officially defined as such.
>>46308137
There is nothing wrong with bait threads, especially since the definition of bait thread is very subjective.
>>46308148
His viewpoint has nothing to do with moral absolutism. It's simply a quick translation of the common d&d chart.
"Good" (=selfless) could have immoral results. Especially since no particular culture was specified.
>>46308110
He wrote that enslaving yourself to moral conventions is slave morality, ergo he wrote the piece itself to attempt and free people from their chains, to make them free. A free man is unbound by social conventions, but there is no reason whatsoever to think that this encourages him to enslave others. Indeed, if Nietzsche calls for the masses to accept his work and so become free, and a free man seeks to undo this by enslaving the masses - taking away their freedom - then slavery itself takes on a distinctly anti-Nietzschean tint.
Nietzchean ethics are not just "be free lol" because freedom implies the freedom to willfully enslave yourself to slave morality. That is, Nietzche's work opposes the enslavement of the self. It is not "neutral".
>>46308148
>>what is moral relativism
Totally irrelevant to Alignment, which is based on cosmic, objective axioms.
Characters can decide for themselves whether an action is evil or not, but nobody, not even gods, gets to decide whether an action is capital-E Evil or not. The universe does that, and it doesn't give a shit about intentions or circumstances.
My players begged me for an evil campaign. Heres how it went down:
>PLayer 1 wants to play an evil pirate looking for a crew. Give her an angle to brow beat some people for money/servitude for a crew
>"No, I dont do that. I dont want to piss people off."
>Player 2 wants to be an evil jew merchant who hires thugs. Give him an angle to take over a drug trade.
>"No. I want to make my money honestly."
>Player 3 wants to be a murder hobo barbarian
>But wants to be a refined murder hobo, only killing when they are rude, i.e, anyone being evil to them.
Boy, these guys sure do know how to mx it up....
>>46308151
Not him, but alignment charts usually devolve into brawls because no consensus has been reached after 35 years, and reducing huge philosophical concepts into game definitions wasn't the best of ideas.
It's a simple, nuanced and solid solution. What bugs you in it?
>>46308137
>tfw running a campaign where slavery is a thing and considered morally dubious
Might as well give up on humanity while I can, I guess.
>>46308203
>He wrote that enslaving yourself to moral conventions is slave morality
Exactly. And those who free themselves are freeing themselves of the norms "to protect others", and only take on that burden if they choose (which is frankly unlikely and possibly undesirable depending on circumstances). Slaves can only be enslaved because they choose to accept slavery - they've already made their choice to not be masters.
>>46308272
If there is no official definition then there is no substance to his argument about "cosmic, objective axioms". Whatever the "basis" for the "objective morality" of D&D is, it is unknown. It is no different than some arbitrary physical quality in that case, and whatever bearing it might have had on moral distinctions is completely null and void.
>>46308275
One does not choose to be a slave if you use actual force, as opposed to social conventions, to enslave them.
>>46308222
The last two examples could be decent characters if played right. n°2 is industrial baron-type LE, and n°3 could be some sort of psychopathic mustache twirling villain. Works well with the berzerker angle, too
Player 1...
It would work with a cowardly and weasely character like Grima. A supine pirate boss, not so much.
>>46308360
Slaves choose to be slaves. They cannot be forced to work. They can be coerced with force, but no amount of coercion can actually make them work. What happens is that the slave is choosing to value their life or well being or some other thing more than their freedom. Aristotle discusses this acceptance of slavery by the slave, and notes how it is natural and indicative of the quality of lesser men.
>>46305680
This is totally feasible.
>>46308305
There are official definitions. They are in the rulebooks.
Problem is they're convoluted, the exact wording changes from edition to edition, and the details are a complete mess (we calculated the amount of slaves you'd need to torture in your sex dungeon for a LG person to switch alignment, provided he led an exemplary life in all other regards, in regard to the books. Turns out it's pretty simple to cheat the system).
And since it has mechanical consequences in the game, it needs an appliable definition that is common to all players.
>>46307975
What is she even doing there?
>>46308305
Uh, anon?
In the world of D&D, alignments are objective things, and are defined with what applies to them within.
It's only when people try to apply it to real life or things that are not D&D that people get riled up.
For example, in D&D, slavery leans toward Chaos and Neutral, really, with the details being the real breaker towards Good or Evil. Serfdom is not Evil. the Trans-Atlantic slave trade is Evil.
>>46308410
>Aristotle
>a ponce paid to sit around and jerk off on little boys talking to anybody about "lesser men"
wew
l
a
d
>>46308410
Keeping someone locked up while you beat them up as they refuse to work is still the opposite of freeing them. You've taken away their freedom.
>>46307975
That depends entirely on how you treat them and what you feed them.
>>46308473
Drugging up her caretaker with aphrodisiacs.
>>46308465
>There are official definitions. They are in the rulebooks.
Go and extract the definition of Good and Lawful from 5E, since that's the newest edition.
>>46308477
>In the world of D&D, alignments are objective things, and are defined with what applies to them within.
Alignments mean as much to moral distinctions as does the level of iron in your blood or how tall you are. Just because some spell believed to have moral significance reacts to you does not mean that you are good or evil. Whether someone or something is good is decided by the framework used to measure that quality, and there's no intrinsic reason to prefer one framework over another. The world of D&D is no different than our own because logic itself cannot bend in such a fashion as to permit "objectively superior or correct" statements of preference like morality.
>>46307689
I bet you don't shower or brush you teeth.
After all billions of humans before you can't be wrong.
>Disgusting flesh sack
>>46308017
I disagree, Herc had anger issues and could be oblivious at times but by and large he was a decent guy to know. He once went to party at a friends house while he was mourning his wife and generally made a complete ass of himself cause he didn't know why everyone was sad, but once someone told him what was going on he went down to the underworld and wrecked shit until he got the guys wife back. Hercules was pretty bro tier.
>>46308473
Giving herself an enema so she can squirt the ass milk into her bosses coffee just how he likes it
>>46308566
Keeping your teeth clean is actually pretty ancient.
>>46305680
I remember a couple of times when /tg argued that a slave based economy was more efficient and lucrative then a automated modern one. As in:
>Slaves reaping wheat VS automated gps guided solar powered haversters.
I will not even bother reading this thread because i am not in a fighting or laughing mood today. i just want to say shine on you crazy diamond
>>46308410
>no amount of coercion can actually make them work
Coercion is forcing someone to take an action that he wouldn't have taken without the application of force (force in a broad sense).
You can't use the concept of choice and this one alongside each other. You're removing force from the equation, that's dialectical sleight of hand.
Of course there are choices involved, but saying that someone choose to be a slave in that case is like looking at someone hit by a meteroite and saying "you choose your death when you took the left path instead of the right one".
>>46305680
There is different styles of slavery. You could do the Mamluk style slavery, where slaves boys are bought and trained to be general and warriors (and sometimes administrators).
>>46307294
>The work is voluntary and they do actually get paid.
Actually, American prisons can force people to perform unpaid labour through threat of punishment, which can include solitary confinement. Slavery is still legal in the US, just only as a form of punishment.
The implications of private prisons being able to legally profit from slavery are quite disturbing.
>>46308566
Stone age people were cleaning their teeth with reeds bro.
>>46308650
>The implications of private prisons being able to legally profit from slavery are quite disturbing.
Yeah, when the government does it its okay though. MARX 4 LIFE
>>46308635
>Coercion is forcing someone to take an action that he wouldn't have taken without the application of force (force in a broad sense).
No, coercion is strongly encouraging someone to take an action via force.
You can't actually make them do something just by threatening or harming them. A man may be beaten, maimed, or killed for refusing to work as a slave, but he will not die a slave.
>>46308675
That's correct in many instances anon. You wouldn't want a corporation raising a private military and conquering neighborhoods would you?
It's hardly Marxist to recognize that some actions are best undertaken by the government, just as I'm not a libertarian for preferring private sector action in other instances.
>>46308675
>Yeah, when the government does it its okay though
Yes, because the state is the institution of society. It bears duties and responsibilities to and from the public, and the public in turn is responsible for the state. So then the public has given its consent by law to enable slavery as a punishment, but the public has not consented to individual, private profiteering.
>>46308650
The way I see it prisoners (With severe enough crimes, basically something you can picture someone getting a death sentence for) Gave up their humanity while breaking the law and thus it isn't slavery, it's efficient tool usage.
>>46308734
But what if its the state allowing private companies to use this prison labor?
Where's your "muh society" now?
>>46307897
In ancient Greece, "hero" didn't have the same meaning it has today. The modern idea of a hero is a person who does good; back then, though, a hero was simply a person who did something exceptional. Heracles wasn't called a hero because he was good or noble, he was called a hero because of his feats of strength.
One example of an anceint Greek hero was a wrestler who lost a match, got wasted and in a drunken rage over his defeat pulled down the pillars of a schoolhouse, crushing a load of children. He was chased, and lost his persuers in a temple; the people took this as a sign that the gods were impressed by his strength, and so he became a hero.
>>46308779
If we want to devolve the discussion into the mundane specifics of actual events, then it's because the state has been captured by private interests. It needs to be purged of that insidious influence.
Of course it is possible for a (foolish) public to sanction private exploitation, but generally speaking this is not what occurs.
Personally I'd encourage that the state merge and coerce private entities to cooperate with the plan for improving society at large, as in much of East Asia.
>>46308410
You're not free if you're dead. You're just dead. You're nothing. No freedom there.
>>46308833
You know you could have just said "I'm a filthy communist" and been done with it.
>>46308860
I'm not a communist, I'm a fascist.
But what I was proposing was neither of those thing.
>>46308550
>Go and extract the definition of Good and Lawful from 5E, since that's the newest edition.
Why should I ? Are you unable to search for it and need me to be spoonfed? It's on p.122 of the player's handbook. Pick up Lawful from Neutral Good.
>since that's the newest edition.
I don't understand. Does that edition exist in a void separate from all other games? Are there no people playing 3.5 or PF left in the entire world? (or simply other works that reuse this chart)
Or is it because it use a bastardized version of the chart? Why didn't you ask me to take the one-axis from 4th edition, while you were at it?
>>46305680
>party is hired by Dwarf merchant (predominantly Lawful Neutral in the setting) as caravan guardians
>at the meeting point, they see caravan of about one dozen Dwarfs, couple ponies, plus four Goblin slaves pulling one of the carts
>party paladin flips his shit, demands explanation
>Dwarfs tell him the goblins attacked them earlier and killed one of their men
>being pragmatic to the fault, Dwarf laws say punishment for slaying a Dwarf can be getting forced to do Dwarfs share of work
>paladin protests, insists that this is against his conscience and he wouldn't have taken the job in he knew, tries to talk party out of it
>Dwarfs discuss among themselves, realize having to look for new guardians would delay the caravan
>Merchant gets back to paladin "So, if we have no slaves here, the contract stands, yes?"
>Paladin agrees
>Dwarfs kill the Goblins and take their place pulling cart
>Paladin's jaw drops
>Merchant remarks that doing the share of work is one way to punish for slaying a Dwarf, the other is, quite obviously, death. They generally discourage it, but at this point it was less hassle than having to look for new guardians.
>Player flips OOC, calls DM names.
moralfags, not even once
>>46308736
>The way I see it prisoners (With severe enough crimes, basically something you can picture someone getting a death sentence for) Gave up their humanity while breaking the law and thus it isn't slavery, it's efficient tool usage.
Sadly this isn't the reality. The reality is that the majority of prison inmates in the US are there for non-violent crimes.
Also, I don't believe that any written law has the power to deprive someone of their humanity, or that anything good can come from treating humans as tools.
>>46308675
>Yeah, when the government does it its okay though.
No, I don't think slavery is ever ok. The fact that it's being done for profit, though, is particularly troubling because it means that a wealthy and influential sector of private business is incentivized to ensure that crime never goes away and convictions are as unfair as possible.
>>46308779
>"muh society"
Fuck off.
Private infrastructure works directly against capitalism.
>>46308901
I asked because I don't play D&D. Your paranoid and frenzied defense of one of its dumbest concepts really speaks to the mental degeneration of the average D&D player.
>>46308910
>and influential sector of private business is incentivized to ensure that crime never goes away and convictions are as unfair as possible.
Aren't they called lawyers?
>>46305939
>>46306094
What you seem to >imply is that monstergirls aren't furry.
>>46308993
There's a distinction to be made.
>>46308681
>he will not die a slave
Highly debatable. You're messing up actions and status.
Considering only status, yes, a reluctant slave will die a slave as long as he hasn't escaped.
Slaves are not freed upon their death, otherwise their owner wouldn't inherit the goods.
So no, you're not a slave by choice. It's a default state. You're not freed when you refuse to work. You're still property.
Let's take someone, lock him up and rape him. Do you think he's not a sexual slave if there is no consent ?
>>46308993
Monstergirls clearly aren't furry. The face and head are the things that distinguish furry from non-furry, and monstergirls have human upper halves, let alone heads.
>>46308989
Fun fact: lawyers make the rules that regulate lawyers.
t. A lawyer.
>>46309018
Slavery in the metaphysical sense, hoss. Of course "the law" can define people however it likes.
Slavery has to be chosen, it is an affirmation that you value something over your freedom and will comply with whatever demands are made of you. To use your second example, the free man will resist until he is unable to resist, and at that point, whether he is raped or not has no bearing on his status as a free man or a slave. For him to become a slave requires his acceptance of the condition of slavery.
>>46309020
Depends on the monster girl. Some are furry, some are bestial.
>>46309101
I think if there's a point where "a monstergirl" crosses into furfag territory then it ceases to be a monstergirl. The thing that defines monstergirls is that they are cute 2d waifus attached to some inhuman form, usually at the waist.
>>46306718
did you all play arcanum im guessing
![funny-pictures-auto-607097[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/nbbI6Uz.jpg "funny-pictures-auto-607097[1].jpg")
>>46308970
You're on 4chan mate, what did you expect?
It's available easily on wikis, too. And we have a 5th edition thread with download links right here on /tg/.
As I said, don't expect to be spoonfed if you aren't at least polite in your demands.
>>46306718
This is essentially the nation of Chelliax in Pathfinder.
> let's be honest, if you let the gnomes lose without supervision, most will be executed for common thievery within a year.
>>46309099
In that sense, ok.
>>46307897
Hero in greek didnt mean good, it was closer to "main character" it was a bit more spacific than that but it said nothing about their moral compass
>>46305680
Sounds good. Just not chaotic good probably.
>>46309310
When did gnomes turn into Kender?
Or is that just Pathfinder 'lelquirky'ness?
>>46309470
Gnomes were never particularly "popular" race and never had any representative that would stand out, with the sole exception of Jan Jansen.
>>46305680
George Washington owned slaves
>>46309533
We are talking about Lawful Good characters Anon.
Got it?Characters
>>46306787
It isn't the pinnacle of quality but I find it entertaining. If you like anime tropes you will be sufficiently amused. And the art has improved noticeably over the years.and I've been reading it for nearly ten years so why stop now?
>>46307801
>>46307846
>>46307897
>>46308017
>>46308100
>greatest hero of greek mythology
And he wasn't even greek
>>46305680
Again, the whole slavery thing depends on the setting and how you make it.
If you want a country that practices it and still come out as likeable, then see Araby from Warhammer Fantasy Battles. They even give their slaves Slave Rights.
>>46306610
I really want to shitpost at you but it's just not coming out.
>>46308398
When you're specifically asking for an "evil" campaign then you shouldn't complain when that's the kind of situations that the DM gives you.
An LE merchant would be able to follow a standard good campaign with just a little tweaking that the player wouldn't even need to request ahead of time.
And there is almost no difference between the way P3 wants to play his barbarian and the way a standard player plays a "good" barbarian.
>>46308736
>Gave up their humanity
Holy shit.
>>46308905
>>Player flips OOC, calls DM names.
What a failure. That was a great opportunity for roleplaying.
>>46308736
Losing humanity is streching it. They're still humans, they just aren't considered people in the same way that corperations aren't human yet considered persons yet in reverse; due to the fact that convicts have shown that they cannot handle the level of autonomy one would typically allow to a person.
There are human rights which are inalienable, and then there are the rights to a person. A prisoner (should) have their human rights intact if they are indeed biologically human, but they lose their rights as a person when they lose their personhood.
>>46306063
Only in America.
>>46305736
Roman-style slavery is not a useful term. The Romans ran the full gamut of slavery types and treatment of slaves. It all depended on when in the empire it was, where the slave was from, and what his job as a slave would be.
>>46305879
But the Dunmer treat their slaves terribly most of the time.
>>46308736
I suggest you read Beccaria "On crimes and punishments". It's a short read and it's available on the net for free.
It's a great booklet, the basis for the modern justice system, and I think it would show you the intended roles of prison sentences. IIRC it even tackles the economic aspects.
>>46307335
Not just meagre pay, it was pay less than the cost of renting the tools and land from their former masters, and this time poor white people got to join in too! Truly, unadulterated capitalism is the way to run a country.
But seriously, sharecropping was some fucked up shit.
>>46312017
>they just aren't considered people
Yes, they are.
>There are human rights
Yes.
>which are inalienable,
No.
They are mostly inalienable within the confines of a constitutional state, but, well. But.
>>46305680
>putting modern and contemporary values on historical and fantasy settings.
>ever.
>>46305680
Lawful Good is not mutually exclusive with being okay with slavery.
Chaotic Good would be, though.
>>46305986
Get outta here Sven
>>46308905
People who flip about this kind of shit instead of seeing g it as the awesome roleplay development it is dissapoint me.
Well, the biggest issue, as many as pointed out(I mean jeeze, it's super common) being not okay with slavery is a modern concept, but at the same time, at the same time. Being good, dosen't mean you go out, to try and stop all evil. That's what would mostly keep slavery afloat. There's a level of cruelty, where you'd have to do something, and at the same time, there's a level of not so bad slavery, where it's just the equivalent of being a servant. It's a case by case situation.
>>46312888
It's clearly a sign of the inability to separate the game from reality. He probably didn't even protest about the use of slaves because he thought his paladin wouldn't like that sort of thing.
I remember when I was like that, 15 years ago.
>>46305921
So indentured servants, criminals, and prisoners of war?
Something seems wrong about prisoners of war and criminals being sold on an open market for their crimes. So what if there's a lot of trouble for messing up a slave - I'd probably want to kill one of the bastards that made sure my son never came home.
>>46313235
You make an interesting point. I guess I may alter the rules somewhat.
>>46313235
>I'd probably want to kill one of the bastards that made sure my son never came home.
And then you'll be sold on the block to one of HIS mates who'll kill you in turn.
>>46314862
There's plenty of people who smuggle guns into courts of law and use them.
A system that doesn't take people's irrationality into account is a shit system.
>>46315001
Fair enough. There would probably be some system in place to stop the prisoners from being bought by people they know and by expansion, especially in the case of crimes like murder, by people who know or knew the victim. After all, it's not, it's not much of a punishment if you're bought by one of your buddies to help him out.
>>46306063
In your Jewmerica only.
>>46311761
Not that poster, while I think the non-violent criminals and even many violent criminals should still be treated like people. If you spent time looking at case files you come across dozens of people which are so evil that I could not care less what kind of torture they go through in prison because their crimes are so severe they deserve it.
>>46305680
>Lawful Good Paladin
>Lawful Good
>Lawful Good to the max
>TO. THE. MAX.
>Perfectly ok with orc slaves to repent for their ultimate sin... being born.
>>46305801
daily reminder that you are a cis-scum racist :)
>>46305680
HORSE
NO.
At one point I played a LG character from an Aztec culture that was both primarily LG and used both slavery and ritual sacrifice.
The GM and I spent pretty much a whole afternoon hashing out a code of principles for both him and his society so they would still feel good but commit what our society sees as evil acts, and the end result wasn't awful.
>>46315516
Well meme'd
>>46311467
I don't think that someone that beats people to death for merely being rude would qualify for "good". As a great example of it : The joker (in most iterations) shoots or tortures henchmen that speak out of turn, and in the TAS episode "Joker's Favor" went out of his way to destroy some poor sod that honked at him during a car chase.
Besides, why wouldn't a evil-aligned character be able to join a good party ? It's not like villains are forbidden to do good deeds when it suits their long term goals.
>>46312205
The Argonians deserved it
>>46312516
>Truly, unadulterated capitalism is the way to run a country.
It really worries me that there are people who genuinely believe this is the case.
>>46309079
And lobbyists more or less run the part of the government that makes laws regarding lobbying. Shit's fucked and can't be unfucked.
>DM says hes tired of evil and neutral characters
>Tell him ok I'll play a TG kobold
>He takes it as I'm "good" only insofar that I say nice things
>Was expecting me to rip and tear and steal and pillage
>Actively starting to get mad that I'm going out of my way to help NPC's and keep them alive
>Flipped shit that I've convinced multiple bad people to the side of good
>"What am I supposed to do?! They are supposed to be dead! Your not supposed to have this many friends that can do stuff for you! How am I supposed to challenge you when you always have a friend that owes you their life! If I even try to throw something new at you you convince it to join you!"
I hate my DM.
>>46305680
>applying modern Western morality to any multitude of semi-historical settings
>>46316423
> If I even try to throw something new at you you convince it to join you!
Confirmed for autistic rollplayer.
>>46307992
Not even close. Roman slaves were able to own property and even pay for their own manumission.
>>46316423
>"almighty dragon appears, raging over the city and burning man and horse alike"
>"excuse me kind sir, would you like to join me in my band of adventurers? there is room next to Torry the Minotaur."
>"oh, for fuck's sake Jack"
>>46316267
Capitalism is useful in quite a lot of senses. Mostly when you can make the self interest of the person profiting the same as your own.
It just tends to get twisted around very fast when someone sees a way to profit that is against you. The same issue though of course still exists within non-capitalistic systems. Governments are more driven towards their own perpetuation then anything common people would call just most of the time.
Add in that laws tend to be pushed though and act more like a sledge hammer then a scalpel and your fucked both ways. Though a mixture of both tends to minimize the damage.
>>46316267
Well, it is. Commiestan can only exist in extremely stable economies of like-minded people of exactly the same culture and ancestry. Which is nearly-impossible.
Capitalism is useful for countries that need to grow economically.
>>46316981
Funny thing is I did convince a Minotaur to join us. Our town well city now needed a jailer and I promised him I'll construct a maze in the jail for him to have fun with would be escapees.
We also have a vampire treasurer who I convinced to join us by promising rare and exquisite blood from interesting things we fight on our adventures. Oh our priest is an Imp that realized helping others repent their evil ways and give up vice was the greatest trick of all.
>>46307471
Where are you from?
loads of standard-fantasy-settings have serfs
serfs are tied to their farms by law and can be forced to do unpaid labour by their lord
does a LG character have to crusade against serfdom?
Undead slaves are basically just a magical version of automation. Of course, this whole argument is meaningless because we haven't defined 'good' and are relying on completely arbitrary guidelines spread out across countless RPG books, often with completely contradictory passages.
>>46307723
>implying we haven't known the Earth was round since at least the times of Ancient Greece
3/10 bait apply yourself
>>46308065
How does "A=A" mean that?
Not that I'm in favor of violence, but I'd like to hear the argument.
Doesn't this whole thread imply that there can't be any Good-aligned parties that comfortably fit in almost any ancient civilization?
