Looking to break into Warmahordes. I am quickly finding out that I am much more excited about actually playing the game than painting minis. How much flak can I expect to get if I show up with crappily painted.unpainted minis?

>>46274060
Only douches judge people based on the state of your army. Or your paint job. And you don't want to play with those people anyways.

You'll be fine 9 times out of 10.

>>46274060
We've been playing with crappily painted or unpainted minis for years.

Adding another player that does the same isn't going to be unusual.

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>>46274060
>spray white
>pain all surfaces you want with washes of the correct color
>throw a brown wash over it.

i did 120 gnoblars in 24 hours with this tactic one time.

>>46274060

See >>46274233

It lets you get decent-looking stuff *very* quickly.

I'd add quick metallic highlights to the pure wash strategy, but whatever.

>>46274233
I should try that, what does priming white exactly accomplish?
I have a shit ton of pirates that I need to paint but never got around to it.

>>46274492
priming white mean you can actually use washes?

like i said i only used washes on those gnoblars

So, working on my Legion.

I've got a bog standard pThags/BB/Warspears list, which is entertaining, very general purpose, and goes up against most generalist lists and heavy armor quite well. Looking for something to pair with it that handles dudespam better, while still being somewhat general purpose.

Looking at (in part to share models, in part because I love the BB):

Bethayne & Belphagor +3
- Blightbringer 18
- Shredder 2
max Warspears + UA 10
max Hex Hunters + UA 11
Blackfrost Shard 5
max Spawning Vessel 3
Strider Deathstalker 2
Strider Deathstalker 2

But still not entirely happy with this setup... any comments?

>>46274559
oh right I'm retarded
you smart and loyal
Guess I'm buying a shit ton of washes now

>>46274559
You can use washes on any model regardless of your basecoat. All basecoating white does is give the model an overall brighter final look.

>>46274618
what. if i did what i did on a black undercoat i would have ended up with black models.

>>46274615
for these gnobs i actually used some of my own washes.

with patina vallejo you can turn any paint into a great wash.

>>46274233
>>46274291
>>46274492


See here: http://handcannononline.com/blog/2013/05/01/painting-with-secret-weapon-miniature-washes/

>>46274807
oh he did it way smarter then me, though it might not be for >>46274060
if he truly wants a really fast way.

though if i was him i would try out a grey undercoat with a medium white spray over it so that the shadows fall better.

>>46274094
>>46274110
>>46274233
>>46274291
>>46275009

thanks a ton warmabros, way more encouraging than the WIP thread

I hate priming white, I feel like the coverage is worse. If I want something to come out brighter I use grey over the black. It takes more to!me, but I prefer the result

I find that it's easier to prime certain colors depending on what colors you're using. I've started priming my protectorate brown since there's so much gold.

>>46275995
I used to do that, and use the Army Painter line of colored primers for it.

Since I got an airbrush, though, I prime normally then do a full-model basecoat, and am happier with the results.

Main point of an airbrush, imo -- being able to do a really good prime + basecoat *fast*.

>why do I play Warmahordes?

Because its not 40k.

Durgen Madhammer (*6pts)
* Ghordson Earthbreaker (19pts)
Alexia Ciannor & the Risen (Alexia and 9 Risen Grunts) (5pts)
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt (4pts)
Press Gangers (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts)
Press Gangers (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts)
The Devil's Shadow Mutineers (Mar, Morland & Zira) (4pts)
Eiryss, Angel of Retribution (3pts)
First Mate Hawk (2pts)
Lord Rockbottom (2pts)
Master Gunner Dougal MacNaile (2pts)
Reinholdt, Gobber Speculator (1pts)
Thor Steinhammer (2pts)

Finally gave in and bought me an Earthbreaker.
Thinking about pairing with Cyphon, any matchups I should be worried about? Legion
looks like it could be a problem.

>>46273963
What is an unique race or a race that shows the worth of the armahordes ruleset?

>>46277441
What do you mean by that?

>>46277461
i will only ever play one race if i start playing, and i was wondering what is the most unique race. or the race that shows off the rules of the game in the best way. like spare marines in 40k

>>46277541
How do you define "unique".

Also, how do you define, "shows off the rules of the game in the best way".

>>46277541
There really isn't one to be honest.
But I think Retribution of Scyrah has the most offensive "things it can do". It does shooting, magic skews, and melee pretty well
and can run jack heavy and infantry heavy.

Cygnar would probably be considered the Ultramarines faction
but they're mainly shooty.

>>46277409
I really, really like Assassins as a buff target for Madhammer, though Alexia is great for it as well. Also, you need Herne and Johnne in that list I think, they do incredible work with Madhammer.

>>46277541
Like, in terms of rules mastery? Circle arguably has that spot, with armies that don't hit hard, don't take hits well, but are fast as absolute fuck to avoid all of that. Their recent power casters have given them some pretty crazy stuff through, so it's less obvious.

>>46278237
I would if I had room, it's actually so annoying that they're 3pts. If I go highborn I probably would though.

I like press gangers as a primed target because of tough and they're dirty cheap.and for total of 16 pts you get 22 dude with boosted attack and damage rolls vs infantry and tough.

I've already bought into the game with a friend so were fucked either way but how prevalent is infantrymachine? Almost every list I've seen has only 1 or 2 jacks

>>46277541
Protectorate of Menoth runs jack-heavy or infantry-heavy and has casters with a pretty wide variety of tools.

Circle can run beast or infantry-heavy as well, as can Skorne, but Skorne suffers from a lot of butt-hurt as as result of not being as good as the other Hordes factions.

>>46279260
Every faction has at least one caster that can run jack heavy in one way or another, though the effectiveness of these lists vary.

Menoth and Convergence are the two factions that run the most jacks, with Convergence capable of the jacks + support style lists.

>>46279411
I wouldn't say the Skorne isn't good, it's that the devs seem convinced they're only allowed to have a single kind of warlock.

Getting together a shopping list to flesh out my collection for when my LGS next puts an order in.

>Cetrati + UA
>Mordikaar
>Despoiler
>Void Spirit
>Willbreaker (another one because LOL aradus sentinel)
>Drake
>Cyclops Shaman
>eHexeris
>Marketh

Anything else that's generally good to bring? Already have nihilators and incendiarii.

>>46279418

As much as I love ol' Harkevich, he's just not as good as eIrusk or eVlad.

>>46279687
Yea, I'm not thinking of him or Karchev. But Butcher3 has a fairly effective multi jack list, and Butcher2 out of tier can be surprisingly effective, if incredibly random. Ruin being able to generate his own souls solves a whole lot of B2's problems.

>>46279260
Depends on the faction
Cygnar and Mercs will often run tons of infantry and a colossal(s). Menoth will run 1-3+ jacks with infantry, and sometimes a colossal. Khador will almost always run 1 jack with lots of infantry. Ret can run tons of medium base jacks, to colossal lists with imperatus, to smaller battlegroups. CoC will spend a decent amount on their battlegroup even in infantry lists.

>>46279647

Krea!
Beast Handlers
Tyrant Commander and Standard Bearer
Another Void Spirit

>>46279763
Already have a krea, handlers, and commander + bearer. I've considered another void spirit, but I'm hoping that the one that the despoiler shits out will promptly die, or my opponent is fine with a proxy.

>>46279732
So did I pidgeonhole myself into Forgeguard, Boomhowlers and auto include Stormwalls by starting Cygnar?

I'm not a huge mercs guy and I won't be getting a colossal for a while but I love the concept of both the Caine's, can I get away running a few jacks instead of the usual suspects?

Also, as an aside, how competitive aregiee lists? pCaines looks like a lot of fun, as does Nemo3's

>>46279938
How competitive are tier lists. Jesus Christ that was a clusterfuck of errors

>>46279938
Tier lists run the gamut, and I would very much advise you staying away from them until you learn the game better. Cyngar, far as I know, doesn't have any really good ones, just a couple jank ones(like Blazes).

Caine2 is one of the best assassins in the game. While he does run all the usual suspects, he pretty much designs his army to just get in the way so he can look for an assassination window to blow the enemy caster up.

I can't remember his name, but the dude on the horse(not Stryker3) is one of the most interest jack casters in the game, though he's also super weird.

>>46279832

It's good to have hope, but that isn't going to be happening.

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>>46279260
If you want Jacks, you will have to go out of your way with purchases to run them.

I'm talking stuff that won't synergize well with other casters or playstyles.

1 heavy warjack or colossal is the norm. No light Jacks is also the norm. It's not the fabled infantry machine of old, but it's pretty fucking close.

If you got into the game for the robots and only for the robots...your gonna have a bad time.

Once you get last that soul crush, you will at least be able to enjoy a very enjoyable game if threat ranges and skill tests!

>>46279938
To my knowledge, Haley2 and 3 don't have to run many mercs or the stormwall to have good lists.
But most lists will want one or the other or both.

>>46280246

>Once you get past that soul crush
> ...a very enjoyable game of threat ranges and tests of skill.

Phone means grammar is kill

>>46280131
I've added a 2nd Void Spirit and also Orin Midwinter. Seems like a cool dude.

>>46280246
Im not exepcting to be rolling full jack lists but I'd like to run a few, maybe 3 or so?

I picked up pCaine (and then eCaine because my order was taking forever to arrive and I wanted something to paint) so I was thinking Ol Rowdy,Hunters, and Minutemen? Cyclones with rune bullets sound fun too. I don't expect to be wining tournaments but those are reasonable choices right?

Also, is Ace in any way decent? He seems expensive, points wise, for essentially just shadow fire and a turn of stealth.

>>46279260
If you were lucky enough to get Protectorate, you can run 3-4 jacks easy, more in specific lists. We have the best jack support with the choir and vassals

>>46280483

3 is workable but lists have advanced to such a tuned stage that I'm not sure you can afford more than 2.

I mean at the end of the day play what you want, then tweak as you play. There is no point playing a miniatures game that doesn't scratch the itch you bought it for in the first place.

>>46280587
>>46280604
I've played the religious fanatics in every miniatures game and RPG I've ever played, the one time I mix things up I'm published.

Yahweh, why have you punished me so?

In all seriousness I'm just going to marshal Cyclones to my gun mages and the complain that my friends Cryx list is OP. Am I a true Warmachine guy yet?

>>46280777
>published
Punished I mean.

Incidently, I'm checking my own trips

>>46280777
Well, I've got bad news.

Rune Shot only applies to the first attack you make with the Cyclones.

Is this game still growing/getting updated?

I kinda wanna get into minatures and while I love the 40k setting it's too expensive and the rules really aren't that great

Would you guys recommend warmachine as something for a total newcommer to table top games?

>>46281646
Yes. Sure. It's a fine game.

>>46281646
Yes. There's something of a lull right now because PP is being stingy with new material to announce at their big tournament/convention in June.

The standard, though, is the Warmachine factions share one book with 3-6 new things per faction in summer, and then the Hordes factions share one book with 3-6 new things in winter. There's no indication this is going to change in the near future, there just aren't as many spoilers right now due to hype building for the con.

Outside of stuff PP itself does, there's a world team championship that gets teams from all over the world, and next year there will be a US team championship, too. There's a big national (US) tournament with a qualifying system that gets bigger every year.

It's growing and actively updated.

>>46281646
It gets 2 new books yearly which updates every faction and the community is still strong. Would definitely recommend it over 40k any day.

>>46281646
It is worth noting that Warmahordes has a more competitive bent in general, though it's not all all encompassing as it might seem, and that the game tends to be fairly rules heavy. The rules themselves aren't too too bad, but interactions can get super complicated.

>>46282218
That said, though, the rules are much more precisely written than 40k. Disabled/boxed/destroyed, for example, may seem obtuse at first, but the detail of the sequence makes most rules that interact with them much easier to resolve.

>>46282496
And it is worth noting that the rules are very heavily rules as written, with very few exceptions.

So a models rules tell you exactly how it interacts with other rules, and if it makes sense fluffwise has nothing to do with it.

A common example is a model that is immune to spells. This means it can't be targeted by spells, but it doesn't mean that if a spell happens to hit it(an AOE targeting another model but catching them in the blast, for example) that they won't take damage.

It can get weirder though. For example, Primal Shock is a damaging spell that picks a warbeast in the warlocks battlegroup and then selects an enemy close to the beast to take a damage roll equal to the beast's strength.

Now, even though the spell targets an enemy model, the spell itself targets the warbeast, so it totally ignores the fact that the model might be immune to spells.

>>46273963
>not taking Warjacks
>laughingconvergence.jpg
Okay admittedly it's just Synth and occasionally Iron Mother but still.

>>46282890
Even Dudespam Axis keeps a third Inverter in his ADR, and Lucant likes him 3 jacks in certain matchups as well.

What would make Khador more competitive?

I have Khador and Legion, and it's hard not to always grab Legion for tourneys.

>>46283057
They just need some caster diversity.

Khador's great at infantry support and they've got several good assassins, but when every single one of your pairings is infantry + assassination, you're a bit predictable. And it doesn't help that their single real control caster has some pretty glaring weaknesses that keeps her from getting played.

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Just started playing, bought a bunch of Cygnar shit (see pic)

I like jacks, but I also like infantry so whatever. Been running the following in 35 point games.

3 Chargers
1 Thorne
1 Squire
1 Arcane Tempest Gun Mage
1 Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Officer
1 13th Black Strike Team

I have a few dumb ideas like take a bunch of Grenadiers with trenchers and spam grenades, or run two of those long range ARM-having jacks (Hunter?)

Any opinions overall? Just playing to have fun, semi competitive steamrollers + casual games.

>>46283427

forgot to mention I own the 6 chargers because I bought 5 of them on the super cheap from a friend.

>>46283115

Who is their single control caster?

Because, honestly, I would count Zerkova1, Old Witch and Irusk2 all to have control feats. Sorcha1 to a lesser extant.

For that matter, I think the Irusks get really undervalued personally.

>>46283627
Old Witch. Zerkova1 has an amazing feat, but not much else to her name, Irusk2 does have a nice control feat, but everything else in his kit is geared towards infantry support.

Old Witch has a good feat, a decent spell list for battlefield control, and lots of ways to work around terrain.

>>46283448
You're half way to Nemo2 all the Chargers.

But Grenadiers are terrible and Trenchers are super, super terrible, so I would highly advise not investing in either.

Hunters can be run well, either on a junior, or on the ATGMs. Rune Bolt for Sniper or Crit Brutal can provide quite a bit of oomph to the little jack, especially if you get the crit and roll 4 dice damage.

>>46283794

junior = journeyman warcaster? Also, rune bolt for sniper meaning? the sniper attachment for the trenchers?

ATGM?

sorry, super new! i'll have to look harder at Nemo.

>>46283920
Yes, that's the Junior.

ATGM Arcane Tempest Gun Mages. The UA, specifically.

They have the special ability Rune Bolt, which lets a jack they're marshaling use their special ammo. You can thus attach a Hunter to them(the armor piercing jack you talked about) and either use their snipe shot to give it +4 range or the Crit:Brutal Damage shot to possibly get 4 dice on the damage roll.

>>46283941

I didn't even realize you could attach the ATGM UA to a jack. Hm. Thanks for the info.

>>46283969
Has the jack marshal ability, which lets it do so.

Note: 99% of the time, Jack Marshal is an incredibly terrible ability that should never be used. ATGMs are one of the very, very few exceptions.

>>46281230
No, it says that all the attacks are initial attacks. You get runes shots on all.

>>46279938
you didnt pigeonhole yourself entirely, if you steadfastly refuse to get any of that stuff listed then look into haley 3 smokewall lists as a start, they dont use colossals, and revive is faction only so you'll be seeing more stormblades and lances than merc units for your armour smashing.

This is only for super competitive play of course, like most advice in these sorts of threads. If youre new you'll get stomped regardless of what you bring until you get a proper handle on the game and the difference between the "best" lists out there and something completely average is unnoticable until you get to the top tier of play. At a recent tournament I ran one of the best players in the country completely steamrolled everyone there just using pSturgis who is well considered a rubbish caster in competitive circles

>>46273963
>Why Do You Still Play This Game edition

I don't, I play the RPG.
Which predictably means I have pretty much nothing to discuss on these threads.

>>46285519

Which is always hilarious with Thunderbolt.

Bye Bye, see you in a couple of turns.

>>46283794
>Trenchers are super, super terrible
except with Haley 3, she brings back the old mk1 smokewall which is a GIGANTIC pain in the ass for any army that cant ignore clouds.

>>46285868

Yeah, about the only thing I've seen that happens concerning the RPG here is:

'One of your IKRPG characters is now a TT Warcaster. How do they play/what faction are they for?'

>>46273963
aah this game isnt actually a warmachine fest : < ?

any chance they will update the rules and start deviating more towards warmachine or monster heavy lists?

>>46285974
Hordes is already monster heavy. As for Warmachine using more jacks, fuck no.

>>46286007
oh i thought hordes and warmachine where using the same ruleset and that tournaments and the like mixed them together. so its essentially the same game.

>>46286028

the rules mesh but there are a couple big differences between them like focus vs fury, but yeah tournaments are mixed

>>46286078
thats hard to grasp.

so i can bring a hordes (monster heavy) army to any warmachine tournament ?

but there are still slight rule differences?

>>46279938
>So did I pidgeonhole myself into Forgeguard, Boomhowlers and auto include Stormwalls by starting Cygnar?
In part. It takes a bit of effort to break out of that rhythm. For example you could play stuff like Caine1 Tier, Haley2 Stormbringers, Haley3 + all the Stormdudes or even Kraye for a change.

>>46281646
Yes I would recommend WMH. No, I would not recommend it because it is cheap. If you want something cheap, play a Skirmish game like Malifaux.

I recommend WMH because it is good. (That does not mean that games like Malifaux are not good.) It is an interesting game where you can spend years learning new tricks and tactics. It has an interesting setting (though the RPG books convey that better) and I like the minis.

>>46285966
Fucking wargamers have no idea how to shut the fuck up even when there's literally nothing new to talk about apparently.

So I dropped myself from the game because I moved year ago
How has the game evolved?
Asking out of curiosity

>>46286126

yeah the big difference is if you're hordes your monsters generate fury for doing stuff that the caster has to leech, while if you're warmachine the caster gets a set amount of focus at the start that they have to give out to their warjacks.

most of the rules work exactly the same for both games but there's some that will specify something like "this spell takes away focus" which means it won't work against a hordes army because hordes doesn't use focus

>>46286126
They are the same game, PP is just shit at marketing that fact. The difference is that Hordes has Warlocks that get Fury from their Warbeasts while Warmachine has Warcasters that allocate Focus to their Warjacks. If they feel like it that is. The differences in these basic mechanics mean that Hordes will usually at least want 2-3 Warbeasts, while Warmachine is usually content with 1-2 Warjacks. There are however exceptions.

>>46273963
Why is /tg/ constantly spouting bullshit about the game dying, while it's blatantly the second biggest wargaming franchise after GW games? (Not counting super mini skirmishes/historical games/vehicle only games)

>>46286979
/tg/ is not immune to shitposting any more than the other boards.

People really should play more than one system, so they can switch things up a bit when they start to get burned out on a game. WM/H can take a lot of effort if you want it to, and that can make it a chore. After a tournament weekend I dont typically touch warmachine again for at least a few weeks

>>46286979

a lot of anons desperately want a mkiii so they bash mkii constantly

>>46281743
>>46282091
>>46282100
>>46282218
>>46286175
Thanks guys, my LGS does game demos for people interested in new games, I think I'll head over today and try it out

>>46287338
If they do a Journeyman league, I would highly recommend it as a way to get into the game. It's a great way to start an army, and you'd be learning rules with (probably) some other people under the watchful eye of an experienced player.

Play a couple demo games with a few different factions, and try out Warmachine and Hordes both, and see which you like better. Page through Privateer Press's gallery and see which faction you like the looks of best. Every faction is viable, but some are a little easier to use than others.

If you lose your battlebox game against Cryx, don't feel bad because pDenny's feat is hot bullshit.

>>46286979
>Why is /tg/ constantly spouting bullshit
The shitposting is strong. Too strong.

>>46274587
The infantry bonuses from bb are nice, but honestly you would get more out of either another unit if hex hunters/ some croak raiders/ ravagores. Bethane is really good at hitting armies fast all over the board, and bb can only concentrate bonuses one place at a time offensively

Is it at all feasible to play with almost entirely 'jacks/Beasts? If so who with?

>>46288265
Mortenebra in Cryx runs really well for a few games of Jack spam.

I've seen some Karchev upsets with all the characters.

Apart from that I don't think I've seen anyone else have fun with all the Jacks.

As for all beast armies.... Legion is the king at that!

>>46288265
Morghoul1, Xerxis2, Doomshaper2/3, Vayl1/2, Absylonia2, Kromac2, Kaya1/2

Kraye, Nemo2, Karchev, Mortenebra, Coven, Skarre2, Denny3, Syntherion, Feora2, ThatRetDudeOnAHorse

To name just a few.

>>46288323
Vyros2! such a fun list. Trading 4 pt lights for heavies all day every day.

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>>46286183
There hasn't been any big change on the level of introducing Colossals in the past year, but a few noticeable changes:

- Haley2, Denny2 ,and Gorman got nerfed. Some of the top theme lists (EE, RoW, Wold War) have been nerfed. Every indication is that PP will continue to tweak overpowered stuff.

- Everyone has a second Colossal or Gargantuan. In general, the worse the old one was, the better the new one is. Most of them haven't been released yet, only Legion (Blightbringer) and Trolls (Glacier King) are actually out, and Cryx (Sepulcher) is the only other one with a release date so far. The Legion, Cryx, and Protectorate ones will probably see the most use, with the Legion one being the one that has the most impact on the meta.

- Haley3 and Doomy3 are a thing, and both are top-tier casters for their factions. The remaining new casters mostly range from playable to very good, but aren't meta-changing.

- Minions have seen huge buffs; pigs have two light warbeasts that are insane, and Croak Raiders are the new hotness (and seem to be a pretty strong counter to the ARM-skew meta that's still the big thing).

ARM skew meta is still going strong, but recent releases (Croaks) may be some indication that PP is trying to shift the game away from it.

All in all, no huge shifts, but PP showing more willingness to balance out the top-end stuff than they have in years bodes well.

tl;dr - Pic attached is the biggest new thing in the last year.

>>46288265
See >>46288323

Note that of that list of casters, most of the casters considered really good are on the Hordes side, as it just runs warnoun-heavy better than Warmachine. Circle and Legion especially have multiple ways to run beast-heavy competitively.

Everyone can do beast/jack heavy if you want to (and play well at the FLGS level), if you want to play the tournament scene and do well, though, there are fewer options.

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>>46286979
Second biggest is now Xwing.
I'll let you guys trigger on that for a second.

... Done? Good. I'm going to explain why there is so much shit posting about MKII and who is to blame for it.

Back in the MK I days, the people that played Warmachine were grizzled vets of GW games. At the time PP was a smaller company that had met great success at the heels of every malcontent that played a GW game. Words about the superiority of metal and many tongue in cheek references to Page 5 were made and it was overall good times.

Then Vlad II happened. Cavalry. All the new tech that was being released was disproportionately strong and the powercreep was the most obvious past Apotheosis. The tournament focus was strong back then, as GW at the time was not really going for the competitive market share.

Pretty soon the bubble burst for PP and they had decided that they needed a reboot. MK II field test happened and everything was toned down a notch after much much raging in the forums.

There was much Kirby Nerfing for Cavalry. Vlad II is now barely seen. Rhyas fell from the highest strata of stupid to a mental level of stupid. However this involvement by the community seemed to have imprinted those that participated in it a sense of "most balanced wargame". Onlookers and passerby noticed the hubbub and saw the focus on effort to rebalance and associated the game with balance and balancing.

And the comments fed into each other over and over. MKII was regarded as the most balanced wargame yet. ... And so the circle jerk began...

Now the problem with people claiming that something is super balanced is that it attracts a certain kind of player. The kind that just wants a canvas for their "TACTICAL GENIUS!!" and needs to prove it. This is where we get our fetishistic focus on Steamroller from.

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>>46288611

The new blood came into this game for it. It's probably the Steamroller event that caught their attention in the first place. So what is a new player going to build around?

So we have the new blood pouring in railroaded towards steamroller. We have the old blood that has been playing Steamroller or can only make it to big events (which are overwhelmingly Steamroller) and we have an entire podcasting community and forum that is dedicated to discussing Steamroller.

You can see where someone that just wants to play big stompy robots doesn't fit in here. That's a shitposter.

You can see why someone who hates tournaments doesn't fit here.
That's a shitposter.

You can see why the demos don't really show what Warmachine is about. Leading to disillusioned newbies... That's a potential shitposter.

The game just had so much new blood come in and so much focus on a select subset of models that's its easy to become a malcontent.

This game requires a crazy amount of commitment in both dosh and brush that it makes you hold it to a higher standard of fun/balance than it probably merits.

>>46288611
>Second biggest is now Xwing.

http://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/33912/top-5-non-collectible-miniature-games-fall-2015

Second biggest is now 40k; X-wing rules all at the moment.

Actual sales rank for WMH is hard to figure because PP still markets Warmachine and Hordes as separate games. The list has Warmachine in fourth behind X-wing, 40k, and Armada, but I'd be surprised if Armada beats out WMH as a whole. (And X-wing and Armada really are separate games as you can't play them together).

The field as a whole has been growing for the past 7 years, though, so while X-wing is taking some sales from the other games, it's generating new sales, too.

>>46288641
>You can see why the demos don't really show what Warmachine is about.

Yeah, this.

When I introduce friends to the game, I never do any battlebox shit because battlebox games have so little comparison to how the actual game is played.

PP seriously needs to revamp the battleboxes as actually reusable core faction sets. It would be nice if they'd actually market WMH as one game; at this point keeping it as two games is stupid.

>>46283767
I actually find Irusk2 pretty useful if he's got a good jack or two with him that can stonewall a counter assault and then loading up on the infantry and solos to make use of his abilities. The thing is Khador's needs more ways to get focus to our jacks as thats really where we tend to be lacking. Well, that and speed but that's a bit harder to fix.

What if the solution to Skorne infantry being bad is to just not bring any? Or perhaps to just bring Cetrati, since they can't get accidentally countered?

>>46289544

Nobody has complained about Immortals since their UA dropped.

>fuck, nobody has complained about ZAAL2 since the immortal UA dropped

>>46288868
Battleboxes would be the easiest shit to revamp even keeping them at 15 points.

>Caster (+6)
>Unit (8)
>Heavy (8)
>Light (5)

Was that so hard?

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>>46285868
I play both. Well more accurately I GM the RPG. Which means I never get to really play it.

>>46285966
>One of your IKRPG characters is now a TT Warcaster. How do they play/what faction are they for?
Which to be fair is an interesting thing to think about. I've made a few of the NPC Warcasters I made for IKRPG into TT rules style cards for fun. It actually helps me think of what sort of troops they'd take into battle to make up theme lists for them.
>pic related

>>46289911
What makes me laugh so hard about Zaal2 is that the community managed to make him decently competitive by ignoring every special rule he has.

In his tier list, Zaal2 does nothing but feat and camp.

>>46289544
>Skorne infantry being bad
Is just shitposting. Reivers, Karax and Cav are shit. The rest is good.

>>46288513
Croaks totally warps the meta and RoW was not nerfed, if anything it got a side grade. Its still super strong.

Blightbringer is not as good as people think

>>46290368
RoW nerf is in the beta for SR2016. Armies that place terrain because of theme forces can't place it any farther forward that the farthest back scenario piece.

If it stays in, it's a huge nerf for RoW.

>>46290368
The Croaks thing will die off soon.
Maybe cause of a few changes down the pipeline. I dunno. It's all hearsay.

>>46290368
What I like about the Blightblinger is that it finally let's me play all the Legion Infantry I bought into many years ago.

>>46290152

Add "cast Transference on turn one" and this is literally true.

>>46290152

>PP honesty-mode Zaal2 schilling
>and here is a spell that for four fury you can risk losing the game! Just think of the opportunities!
>and here is a spell that uses warlock resources to do something that you would prefer to accomplish not using warlock resources. But don't worry, it only helps out the battlegroup! You're going to want to keep that small, of course.
>look at all these units you probably shouldn't be putting to your list! Put them in your list!

Upkeep transference, don't go crazy with it, pop feat, don't die. You may as well magic-marker over the rest of his cards, it's only good for losing you the game.

>>46292309
I still can't believe that it came out in the same book as doomy3. Also, I still can't believe doomy3.

So, I'm gonna be buying a ton of Retribution for my birthday, and I was wondering what the best place would be for such an endeavor. I'm looking at spending around $300. Would Discount Games Inc be the best place?

>>46292727
The thing about it is that Zaal2 has an incredibly interesting mechanic, and the idea behind his spell list(a bunch of high cost spells you can't normally cast, but with all these souls you can) is a pretty interesting idea as well.

He just needed a much better spell list, still high cost, but like, high cost worth it, a feat that actually interacted with the kind of army he wants to bring, and not straight up mk2 playtest skornigy.

>>46291654
>The Croaks thing will die off soon.

Croaks do what they're built to do -- mangle MMM-style infantry -- beautifully. They'll knock MMM/Fist down a bit in popularity, then they'll shuffle down into equilibrium with their primary prey.

RAT 6 out-of-faction (typically) with no RAT fixing available is kinda limiting in terms of ideal targets; without low-DEF stuff that *wants* to be out front they're a bit of an answer in search of a question.

That said, they're not any more of a liability than most other shooting units without their primary target, and they're beautiful against MMM/Fist.

If "meta-warping" means "convince people to play less MMM/Fist or play a few more shooting units", then sure. But outside of high-ARM infantry skews I don't think they do much to the balance of the game.

>What I like about the Blightblinger is that it finally let's me play all the Legion Infantry I bought into many years ago.

I like it because it makes some Legion playstyles viable that haven't traditionally been, and the pThags/BB/Warspears lists asks some questions that Legion traditionally hasn't been very good at asking. I think it's more of a faction-changer than any of the other new gargossals (although Cryx may be close), but not really a balance-changing thing.

Mostly I like it because it's just fun to play without being Stormwall-level OP.

>>46292841
If there's a better place than Discount Games, I'm certainly not aware of it.

>>46292841

I liked the idea of Zaal2 before we knew his feat.

His spell list was interesting with Reclaim. I always liked the idea of Transference and a caster that could leverage it is interesting.

His feat however killed me. I fucking hate Skornegy and I hate that PP keeps building shit with the idea of "te-he, Skorne ain't supposed to work good because Skornegy."

Every time I look at him it is infuriating because he is a caster that can only effectively leverage half of his abilities in a list and trying to do both is self sabotage in one way or another. I hate that design. It's the least fun way to make anything by intentionally sandbagging the player at list construction.

>>46293025

Well, there's FLGS. Rule of thumb is anything actually on the shelf of the place you play games at gets First Option when that is the item you are buying.

>>46293046
It doesn't help that they took one of the two casters in Skorne with some control elements and made him a beastick caster, which is exactly what Skorne needed.

And the whole debacle of his DEF/ARM.

>>46293059
Yeah, the FLGS owner is where I buy all my infinity stuff. Warmachine is just so damn expensive, though (as in I'd be saving well over 200 bucks ordering online) I'm normally one to support my FLGS 100% but that's too much money I'd be saving to do that.

>>46293169
Wait do you buy Infinity because the price savings are miniscule or because of loyalty?

Because if it's the former DGI has everyone best Walmart style. If it's the latter then split fifty, fifty at least. All metal models are from my FLGS.

>>46292727
Doomy 3 isn't all that amazing. He has a bunch of tools, but also contain crippling weaknesses that he can't overcome. He's a list chicken caster

>>46293372
Doomy3 3 heavies is an absolute fucker of a list, and Doomy3 double Glacier Kings is a totally different absolute fucker of a list.

He can have Mulg go full fucking tilt and just feat him and then you can't kill him.

>>46293372
I'm on the side of "not amazing" (but he's still one of the top Troll casters), but I can't say that he has any crippling weaknesses. He has a solid spell list for a Troll caster, a great timewalk feat, and useful minifeats.

But yeah, he's beatable. You just have to be ready to have Mulg in your face and virtually invulnerable for a turn, which is easier said than done.

>>46293289
Both. I tend to buy everything but Warma from my FLGS. Unless he can't get something in, I buy from him.

Miniature Market competes pretty well against discount gaming. I would support my FLGS but there really isn't one in NYC. Feelsbadman

>>46293462
He has really bad time against things with high defense. While you have the feat, since your high defense opponent has greater threat ranges usually, you have to feat defensively.

Khador in general is pretty much stuff of nightmares for doomy 3 after the feat turn

Anyone have the novels available? Are they any good? Any idea where to get 'em? Skull Island don't have a paypal option.

>>46293813
Considering that he has both a feat and minifeat to work against high DEF, and his feat makes his beasts largely immune to counter-attack, that seems odd. At least, I've run fairly high-DEF lists into him and didn't feel all that advantaged.

I could see him having trouble with high-DEF dudespam, but I haven't actually run into that in years.

My major accomplishment in my games against Doomy3 was killing Mulg under feat. I had to two-hand throw him outside of Doomy's control range, but a kill is a kill.

>>46293813
He puts Mulg super far up the board super early. Don't tell me he gets out threated

>>46294243
He's still moving at spd4/6 after the first turn. He gets up the board fast, but he's not winning the threat range war.

>>46294151
Again, you will pop feat to tank, not to alpha strike. The scroll is also for warriors that he's taking very little of.

Khador is still stuck in high def dudespam hence why I specifically mentioned Khador.

Doomy 3 requires a lot from your opponents

>>46294544
A turn 1 Mulg is 21" up the board turn 1, and then he threats 11" from there, with Goad to get him even farther in.

If you move your non-AD models 6" up the board turn 1, Mulg can charge them.

And if you jam him, he just has Mulg and his other heavies murder as many of them as he can under feat, leaving you with Mulg in your face under feat. Nevermind the fact that the EBDT and the Mauler are likely also there, murdering shit as well.

And between his Feat for dice and his mini feat for Fire Breather sprays, he can mulch an absolutely insane amount of models.

Right guys r8 my pair of 50 point lists for Steamroller.

>Void Seer Mordikaar (*5pts)
* Basilisk Krea (4pts)
* Despoiler (10pts)
* Titan Gladiator (8pts)
* Aptimus Marketh (3pts)
Cataphract Cetrati (Leader and 5 Grunts) (11pts)
* Tyrant Vorkesh (3pts)
Nihilators (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Agonizer (2pts)
Extoler Soulward (2pts)
Mortitheurge Willbreaker (2pts)

>Archdomina Makeda (*5pts)
* Basilisk Krea (4pts)
* Cyclops Savage (5pts)
* Molik Karn (11pts)
* Titan Gladiator (8pts)
* Aptimus Marketh (3pts)
Cataphract Incindiarii (Leader and 3 Grunts) (6pts)
Nihilators (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew (Leader and 1 Grunt) (1pts)
Tyrant Commander & Standard Bearer (3pts)
Agonizer (2pts)
Mortitheurge Willbreaker (2pts)

>Krea
Really don't know how I feel about it. Never feels like it does much.
>Savage
Again, don't know how to feel. Could drop the Krea+Savage+Bellows Crew and bring an Aradus Sentinel+Willbreaker, but that needs a Raider really. At least he's a solid beatstick that can act as a distraction or put a dent in heavies. Shame his animus is kinda meh.

I don't even know what I want to do with two separate lists honestly. My choice of warlock tends to just depend on how I'm feeling. Though I do like some Molik Karn yo-yo bullshit with Savagery + Rush.
>Hurp durp I'll walk 13", kill one dude, kill another, kill a couple more with bought attacks, then Fate Walker my way back to have my fury pulled off me so I can make anything trying to hit me miss hurrrrr
I don't even own Mordikaar yet but he just feels so solid on paper. Revive a Nihilator behind their front line then berserk your way to victory.

iam really sad to hear warmachine is actually an infantry game. i just wanted to battle with warmachines vs other warmachines.

>>46295161

Yeah. We apologize after every demo. Hopefully you didn't buy in yet!!

>>46295161
Heavy fights generally just come down to whoever gets the first attack in since you tend to do enough damage to blow something up.

>>46295161
You can do it with a few casters, but generally, yea, it's got a more infantry focus, which is sad.

You can do Beast heavy lists, if you're interested in that, however.

>>46295132
I'm not a fan of having a Krea in both lists. You only need it in the one you drop into mass shooting.

Savage can be extremely good, but I don't think Mak1 is the right match for him.

>I don't even know what I want to do with two separate lists honestly.
Well with Mordikaar you will probably want a list that can take Cryx, but I don't think your list is good at that. Cetrati and Despoiler do nothing in that matchup. It's more of an all-rounder list, but so is your other list.

>>46295214
>I'm not a fan of having a Krea in both lists. You only need it in the one you drop into mass shooting.

Pass into the void.

>>46295214
I just didn't want to max out the Incendiarii then get matched against something immune to continuous effects and cry, and he seemed like a good general way of using the points. What kind of lists do people generall build? I assume there's general army archetypes like:
>Mass infantry
>Mass shooting
>Cryx
But how do I build to deal with all of these reasonably well? Won't I just end up being forced into one solved list? Also, how do I use the Savage well? Throw him at infantry to kill and tie them up? Use him like a mini-Molik to smack a heavy hard enough to disable it? Teach me the way of Skorne list building and appropriate model use, Anon-senpai.

>>46295687
Also can someone tell me why this is a stupid idea?

Points: 50/50
>Master Tormentor Morghoul (*7pts)
* Basilisk Krea (4pts)
* Cyclops Brute (5pts)
* Cyclops Savage (5pts)
* Cyclops Savage (5pts)
* Molik Karn (11pts)
* Titan Gladiator (8pts)
* Aptimus Marketh (3pts)
Cataphract Incindiarii (Leader and 3 Grunts) (6pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Agonizer (2pts)
Mortitheurge Willbreaker (2pts)
Mortitheurge Willbreaker (2pts)

An enraged and abused savage hits as hard as a heavy, right?

>>46295687
The amount of models that are immune to fire that you're actually worrying about running into are pretty much none.

>>46296395
Yes, but an enraged and abused Bronzeback hits like a mach truck.

>>46296620
But a savage only costs 5 points, and if you only need to get the first hit in, it seems fine. Abuse + Rush means a Savage has a 15" threat range. Them going on a suicide mission to take out heavies is acceptable. Also because of Fate Walker, I can leave Morghoul up front to still be able to force the savage.

Dunno what I'd do against infantry though. I was hoping the Incendiarii would be able to coat a good amount in fire, then Molik Karn could sidestep through the ones not on fire. Once their infantry is in shambles, my beasts should be able to crush what they have left. In theory.

>>46296726
I'll swap the Brute for min Nihilators just to have a tarpit of sorts.

>>46296726
Or the Bronzeback can just kill everything it makes contact with.

Combat heavies, especially ones that cost more than 4 points, are almost always terrible.

>>46296620

Board coverage is a thing. It's a hell of thing. If you've got Morghoul1 with a Gladiator for Rush, Marketh to stretch Torment, and a pair of Willbreakers so you can force outside his controll area... oh WHY THE HELL NOT take two Savages?

Hell, add in a Shaman.

>>46296775

Don't ever do that. They get Morghoul on his back and it's all over.

>>46296778
But how much can the Bronzeback make contact with is the question.

>>46296808
With Trainwreck, quite a bit more than you'd expect.

>>46296807
Then what? Just have no frontline tarpit dudes and rely on chipping them down with Incendiarii?

>>46296778

The thing of it being that everything a Bronzeback can contact is limited proposition, and given the existing list resources there isn't anything it can do that something else can't do. Here it isn't needed.

>>46296828
But then all he'll do is run forward, kill a few infantry, dent a heavy, then die next turn. Karn can run away.

>>46296862
You don't need to send him immediately forward. You can use Karn to sandpaper their army, just like you said.

And when they actually commit, that's when the bronzeback goes in.

>>46296836

It's more of a statement that you absolutely need a Krea and a Brute with Morgoul1 as necessary defensive techs; the temptation to raid the defensive tech fund to pay for other stuff is ever-present, but it's a newb mistake.

>>46296923
God, if he had fucking Ground Work.

Why doesn't he have Ground Work?

>>46296907

There's an entire table that needs fighting on, though. It'll be great if the other guy oblidges you by designing his list into bronzeback feedbag sized chunks and serves them directly up, but, well... scenarios.

>>46296979
If you're expecting Savages to hold zones for you, then you're going to have some issues.

And by that, I mean you're going to lose.

So you're fucked either way, as far as that goes. Much better to have a list that can murder half his army

>>46296907
So my list isn't actually that bad? I only really play practice games at my LGS where WMH isn't that old or big, so we're all kinda learning the game as we go.

>>46297092
I'm not a real fan of the Savages, as I've said, but it's a fine list, overall.

>>46290064

He'd basically be Khador's answer to Caine1 in terms of ranged murder and support.

>>46297051

Cover table. Put large sections of table into threat area, with a meaningful threat. It's a neat trick and pretty much only Morghoul1 can do it.

There is not a thing that putting a bronzeback into that list is going to accomplish that can't already be done by that list, and you're reducing table coverage dramatically to do it. It's a speed 4 without reach; it can destroy targets and pacman to destroy multiple targets. He can do that already. Bronzeback is not the answer; to specific, the question he answers has already been throroughly answered and limits overall capability by taking things out to put him in.

>>46288513
>Croak Raiders are the new hotness

I got into warmachine because I loved the Croak models. I was very happy to see that for once in my life, my favorite models are actually good rather than THE WORST EVER.

But it actually prevented me from actually playing... I don't want to be seen as some cheesehead clusterfuck.

>>46298326
So here's the thing about Warmachine.

When models are labeled OP, it's often at a level of play that new players or even middling ones simply aren't at.

Croak Raiders are very good, yes. But they're very good in specific lists that use a lot of tactics to keep them alive, and they're good in the hands of a player who knows exactly what to do with them.

This isn't 40k, where an OP model is OP simply by existing. It takes a lot of work to make even the amazing models in this game do what they're supposed to. You can give the best list in the game to one player and a pretty middle of the road list to another, much better player, and the better player is likely to win.

>>46298326

They're good, but they are easily killable.

People like them because they have crazy good dmg output and can be used effectively by almost every Hordes faction.

That said, they can still just be shot off the table like any other infantry in the game. They aren't remotely cheese by, say, 40k standards.

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>>46298488
This is very encouraging, not the anon you replied to but thanks for the info. Have a regal croak

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>>46298595
>>46298488
Yay! Time to start painting my gators and frogs then.

>>46298694
>>46298699
Yea, while the comparison isn't perfect, Warmachine(and most other good wargames, in fact) are a lot like sports.

It's 95% practice and 5% lists.

List construction is absolutely important in the game, don't get me wrong, but you can't take a winning list you don't know how to run(and more importantly, you don't know what to drop into) and just smoke everyone.

You'll see guys with oddball lists take even major events simply because they know what the fuck their list does and how to play it.

>>46298326
They're the darling of the moment because they're a counter to a type of list (lots and lots of high-ARM infantry) that has recently been the most complained about.

No one cares about people running Croaks (or double Croaks) unless they happen to be running one of the high-ARM skews.

And, honestly, in most WMH groups, no one complains about cheese unless you're seriously spamming something, and a FA: 2 limit prevents you from doing that with Croaks.

They're good, play them, don't feel bad about it. Anyone who complains is probably running some form of high-ARM skew cancer and deserves it.

>>46298851
No, the problem is that the little buggers are generally fine against most single wound models as well, and the one thing they don't like(high def), the rest of the list can handle.

It gives casters like Krueger2 the ability to remove heavies at range, which is something he really didn't need. Other casters are really benefiting from them as well for a lot of the same reasons.

>>46298851
>cancer

Let me walk that back.

The main draw for WMH for me -- moving from 40k as if that's a surprise -- was that there was relatively little repetition of units within the game. Circle is my primary faction, and the list I play most and am best at has exactly two entries -- a Gallows Grove and a Blackclad Wayfarer, for a grand total of 3 points -- duplicated at 50 points. Hell, I've got over 200 points of Circle and beyond that only three other entries I've got duplicates of (Woldstalkers, Warpwolf Stalker, and Shifting Stones), making 90%+ of my Circle stuff unique.

I personally hate spam lists. Mad Dogs of War is my least favorite list to run in to, Fist and (the now former) EE weren't much better. Beyond them being tough, they're just less interesting to play into because... they're boring.

And most of the people who are going to be really butthurt about Croaks tend to play some high-ARM spam list, so fuck 'em. And two of the same unit isn't enough for my whiny ass to say anything about.

>>46299035
EE was a lot of things, but I wouldn't say it was boring. It did a lot of crazy shit.

I enjoyed playing against it, even though it was hands down my favorite matchup, just because of how crazy the list did shit. And watching it backfire was amazing when it did.

>>46298790
Man I love this game but every year with every release... The game will slowly creep more weight into list building.

The best comparison is:

65% skill 35% List Construction and matchup.

I know the trolls claim even more percentage (like flipping it around to 65 on list building) but it's is a very very real issue. A bad list cripples your ability to react and can make a 2hr game feel like a slog.

In casuals it can be weighed even worse too, with some things derp easy to learn putting the onus of skill on the opponent.

>>46298924
But being out-of-faction for most lists that take them and having no RAT-fixing (and not having *great* range), most single-wound models that aren't an ARM skew *are* high-DEF for them, unless you're playing with no terrain and against casters with zero ranged hate.

It's not unique to them (how many ranged units actually see play, after all?) but if they're not shooting at something that makes it worthwhile to lose 1/3ish of their shots to boost the remainder, their effectiveness falls off rapidly.

Not to say they're bad, but without being able to use oil advantageously, they're pretty normal ranged units without RAT fixers, and I have to disagree *strongly* that pretty normal ranged units without RAT fixers are "fine".

Given their utility when they can use oil advantageously, though, they're a great unit. I just don't see them as a problem. But I play a lot of casters with ranged hate, and even my high-ARM infantry list has enough ranged hate that Croaks bounce off of it.

>>46299438
Meh. I'm a big fan of the game and enjoy how much skill is a factor in winning, but 65% skill 35% list construction is probably optimistic on the skill side -- it's way too easy to get into a situation where you just don't have enough rolls of the right type to counter skews before losing the game.

But, this is greatly ameliorated by the list construction difficulty having a low threshold (and it not suffering from 40k's "all of the good stuff is expensive and changes every time you get a new codex") and the two-list Steamroller format.

>have old metal trollbloods
>had them since 2010
>never even assembled them because no pin vise

Suffering

>>46298851
Lich2 is my waifu and I don't care to see double croaks. Although, I generally drop Denny3 into most double croak casters so...

My troll town Venethrax list hates them tho

>>46299911
Just get some good super glue and don't drop them you grognard

>>46303507

Never. I know how to properly put together miniatures, I just don't have a pin vise anymore.

>>46303576
A scrub is you

>>46304386

I'd rather have them done properly than just slapping them with some glue.

Does Venethrax's 'Soul Harvester' spell let you take souls off of modles? I heard he could take them off of the enigma foundry

>>46304536
No, you only gain the soul token of the model you killed.

Engima Foundries have souls themselves, so you'd get their soul, but you wouldn't get the souls on it.

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>>46304592
Are you sure? For some reason I was under the impression that it functioned similarly to his dragon slayer spell

>>46304612
"When target friendly Faction model/unit destroys a living enemy model with a melee attack, this model gains the destroyed model's soul token"

You only gain the soul token of the destroyed model, not any soul tokens it's carrying. Notice the lack of plural.

>>46304676
Damn it. The internet lied to me!

>>46304832
I mean, bring it up on the Rules forum if you want a final answer.

Where did you read this, though? The rule is exactly the same as any other soul collection mechanic, pretty much, so it would mean that everything would gain all the souls.

>>46285974
>any chance they will update the rules
It might be habbening soon. Take that with a grain of salt.
The game works, and if it ain't broke don't fix it.

There are a few things in the game that are pretty negative play experiences:
Some power casters lol u lose: eMorv, Skarre things like that. That doesn't mean they can't be beaten, just that if you don't bring the right counters you auto lose, and that stops being fun real quick.

Then there are a couple of rules which are a bit silly.
Mostly to do with fury /warbeasts being easy mode.
but also tough as a rule
power attacks
weapon master

These are the common complaints.

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>>46298488
>This isn't 40k, where an OP model is OP simply by existing

>>46305152
If you think Karn is overpowered, then I kind of pity you.

>>46286226
That's what it's supposed to be.

unfortunately it's also the game that says "play to win" so some players think that the only way to play is to build the most optimised list possible and roll over all opponents.
They don't gloat though, at least they aren't supposed to...

>>46293452
I notice that none of the troll savvy posters isn't saying anything about this comment.

Mulg rushes into your lines, maybe trample, maybe just runs. He's now very close to your caster. Mulg feats, you can't kill Mulg.
If you do anything Mulg will goad to your caster and kill you.

You do nothing: mulg kills you
you do something: mulg kills you

So, why isn't doomy3 really good again?

>>46305160
>15" threat range reach weapon master with an average PS of 16.5 who can run back to safety after slapping someone's shit
>Before buffs

>>46299438
Yep just go up against eMorv with the wrong list, or even the wrong caster and you might as well just abandon the game immediately.

She'll just move repop a gallows grove and bam u ded lol gg (noob)
The fact that she can repop solos and ua's and can re-roll with her HP, but gets her HP back, and has light cavalry, and fury, it's just so fucking cheap.
If she couldn't repop solos or ua it wouldn't be so bad

>>46305314
molik karn is so OP. PP knows this and this is the reason why Skorne don't get nice things.
Anything that can buff warbeasts/living or simply models will make molik karn even better.

>>46299911
>>46303507
Or get a pin vice for ~10[currency].

>>46305297

I pop feat for double dmg and conquest kills it in a single swing

>>46285974
Protectorate is warjack fest already. add Choir and Vassal, and a couple cheap heavies, and you can do some steam-powered mayhem.
Convergence can do Robot Apocalypse fairly well with their unique focus mechanic.

You can play all warjacks in Khador with Karchev, but I would strongly advise against it, since you're buying in a faction for one warcaster, which is no fun. You can also run Vlad1 Berserker spam with them, which is hilarious at first, but not very effective, unfortunately.
Butcher3 can also do a sort-of okay 3-jack list, but that isn't really about running the jacks well, rather that the opponent has to deal with all that armor, while Butcher is running up behind them to personally murder everything.
All in all, Khador does best with only 1 jack attached to their caster. You can also use the new journeyman, who can also fuel 1 jack rather well, but that's about it.

You can do jack spam with Mortenebra in Cryx, but that's also the opposite what the faction is normally geared for. In most cases I see one jack in Cryx, and that's either a cheap arcnode light, or Deathjack.

Cygnar, Retribution and Mercs don't do jacks that well either, but they have better options than Khador.

Cephalyx can use a couple Monstrosities, but they are mostly meat shield as far as I can tell.

Trollbloods can run lotsa light beasts, and there are heavy beast builds, though not very competitive - in case that's what you're looking for. They are generally the infantrymachine faction of Hordes. They have the weakest beast support in Hordes - probably with the exception of Minions.

Skorne can run beast heavy and do it really well. They have excellent beast support in the form of their Beasthandlers unit and Willbreaker solo. Their warlocks also have good abilities/spells for running beasts.

Legion is built for monstrous melee. They can run all-beasts-all-day and be really good at it.

Circle has some builds to run losta beasts. Kromac1, Baldur1, and Bradigus all do it

>>46299911
What is the point of pinning? It doesn't make the superglue bond any stronger, just ensures that if the bond breaks, the part will stay on, but it will become loose and you have to tear it off and reglue anyway.

So anyone going to Lock and Load?

>>46306655
>It doesn't make the superglue bond any stronger

The whole point is that it makes the bond stronger by providing more surface area for the glue to bond to.

>>46308162

Yeah the added benefit of keeping the model together sans glue is really more of a bonus.

>>46308162
The glue's composition doesn't change, so it will still crack just the same if you drop the model. And since there's a pin holding the metal part in place, instead of tearing off, it will stay in place and get bent by the impact.

>>46306655
The pin helps support the part of the model you've pinned, thus reducing the stress on the superglue. It doesn't make the superglue stronger but it does make the superglue less likely to lose its bond.

It also helps hold the part in place while the glue is drying, thus making assembly easier.

>>46308842
Don't drop your minis, you fucking moron.

>>46308842
>The glue's composition doesn't change

No shit. No one has said that. The strength of the *bond*, though, is proportional to the surface area bonded. Pinning a model increases the surface area of the bond, which increases the strength of the bond -- it takes more force to sever a pinned bond than a non-pinned bond because the glue has more surface area to bond to.

>>46309089
>Don't drop your minis, you fucking moron.

Why bother pinning them at all then? The parts don't fall off on their own.

>>46309523
The bond doesn't help at all if the glue cracks, as it will from an impact.

>>46292769
They're a good retailer, and so is Miniature Market. Though if you don't mind receiving your goods from multiple sources, I would recommend trolling around ebay for the cheapest NIB stuff available. A lot of ebay retailers offer free shipping, too.

>>46305297
Because he's mat 7 after you burned your feat. He's gonna get jammed by any high defense infantry. If you try to get close with mulg, doomy also needs to be close which will get him likely killed. Lack of mat buff outside of defensive feat really hurts on the general output.

There are lists that can't deal with doomy 3 or dumb opponents. Those that can just royally fuck doomy over. He's a narrower runes of war who suffers severely from the point deficit.

>>46293077
>>46293046
I don't know if you guys have actually played him at all... I was a contrarian at first, too, but eZaal is one of those cases that looks like hot garbage on paper, but is actually borderline broken (in favor of the Skorne player) both in and out of theme.

It really is one of those things you have to play to believe.

>>46310973
PPIDF detected. He's shit, man. Terrible defensive stats, a giant pile of shit of a spell list, a feat that wants him to bring models he otherwise hates having, and the loss of what made pZaal interesting

>>46310897
>Because he's mat 7 after you burned your feat

Oh my god, he's mat 7, which is one higher than most melee beasts/jacks.

>He's gonna get jammed by any high defense infantry.

So does everyone else. Also, trample is a thing. And Mulg has 5 fury. And MAT 7. And an affinity that gives you an extra swing if you don't kill the last thing you hit.

Fire Eaters are a thing, too.

>If you try to get close with mulg, doomy also needs to be close which will get him likely killed.

Doomy has a 14" control range, like most competitive casters. Why is this a particular problem for him? I'll give you that 13/15 is low in the grand scheme of things for casters, but effective 13/17 with the rock and knockdown immunity alleviates that to some degree.

But, basically, a vulnerability that almost all casters have.

>Lack of mat buff outside of defensive feat really hurts on the general output.

So, basically *just like everyone else*? Doomy3 sucks because his MAT fixing is merely above average?

What in the fuck does a caster have to do for you to consider them to be good? I hate to say it, but git gud. You're whining about shit that *everyone* has to deal with as if it's a particular problem with Doomy3.

>>46309703
Why bother having a skeleton? Why didn't god just glue all of our meat together?

>>46311246
I'm detecting a lot of misdirected anger. I also think you are looking at things in parts rather than the whole. Mat 7 is a good stat, what the lack of mat buff means however is that your output is significantly diminished throughout the game. Previous versions of doomy and mulg could mulch through significant portions of the enemy army because there was no need for boosts or missed attacks were rarer incidents. Not to mention an easier def upkeep removal in the case of doomy 1. Defenders warded errants are a real bitch to remove for mulg under doomy 3 since 7s to hit are barely at the cusp of acceptable odds.
yes, everyone gets jammed but mulg gets stuck with doomy 3 and output is much lower.I'm unsure what the relevance of the affinity is for the discussion since the problem with high def infantry is that the affinity doesn't work. Same with fire eaters. They are a self sufficient package that's good in all lists.
control area and safety issue: it's more of a multi layered issue than stats. It also is a completely different topic whether you tier or not. If in tier, the reduction of offensive output per fury becomes a huge problem since you have so few models that can provide offense and board coverage. Scenarios like outflank are the worst case scenario. If out of tier the general weakness to dictating the engagement due to lack of speed or the points to spare for a tarpit makes him hard to attrition against numbers. His spell list is also a contributing factor for him being more risky. Except for admo and implacability all his spells are offensive while in a faction with no nodes. Finally, doomy just runs out of points fast. Runes of war is a 4pt swing on a 7 pt caster. Doomy 2 is a 6pt caster who can provide enough output from warbeasts that he doesnt need infantry and certainly doesnt need to get close to the enemy to get his work done.

Doomy's mat fixing is not above average. It's barely existing if at all. Doomy's ok. He's just not great.

LOCAL GAME STARTS IN 1 HOUR

25 Points, No Objective

Madrak1
-Dire Troll Mauler
-Troll Axer
-Troll Impaler
Full Fennblades
Fell Caller Hero

VS.

Adeptis Rahn
-Phoenix
House Shyeel Battle Mages x 2
Stormfall Archers x 2
Arcanist

PLACE BETS NOW

>>46312870
Rhan.

More guns, an actual heavy, no troll staples

>>46312257
The meat will knit itself together but the glue won't. Then you gotta tear off the part and scrape away all the hardened glue before you can reglue it.

>>46310973

He isn't broken, but you have to look past the "Skorne" faction header on the tournament sheet and actually see what you are reading. Simply bringing the wrong game to a not-quite-Skarre1 match will do you in.

>>46305152

Thinking Karn is unstoppable or not is about as good a dividing line between player skill (or just plain list design skill) as can be.

>>46311156
[Insert Company Name]-Internet Defense Force isn't an argument, anon.

eZaal is fine; just because he can't bring army of Immortals AND have 20 Fury per turn for infinite transfers/casting doesn't mean he's shit. Maybe the design intent is for you to build a list balanced around living models, constructs, and a ranged battlegroup?

Try proxying his theme list before you jump on the hate bandwagon.

>>46313625

If he doesn't have 20 fury a turn he casts NOTHING. Transference or camp. He doesn't have a good spell list; it's over-costed and limited in scope. Skorne living infantry are all but helpless in some matchups, and spell-slinging of any degree is easy to tech against if you just bother to prepare for it. If you bring a ranged battlegroup, you've got a boosted 13 as the best PS on-table.

"Designed to be balanced" is the condemnation skorne has been leveling at PP for years. It's not a good thing to be in a game designed to be broken. Playing a fair game is for losers; skorne follows the rules. Zaal2's edge is the two builds where he can follows the rules so throroughly and extremely that he breaks them- but both leave him hideously vulnerable in other ways. Balance leaves him mediocre.

>>46313625
His theme list is fine, as discussed, but the point is that his Theme list, the only way he's competitive, avoids using any of the tools he brings.

He casts transference, occasionally uses transference, pops feat, and camps.

He does no soul collection, he does no RV(because it will lose him the game), he casts no spells(because it will lose him the game), and basically does nothing but camp and sit back in the back and let his army win for him with no interaction.

Giving him a bunch of overcosted, shitty spells isn't mitigated by "oh he'll have 20 fury every turn."

You know what would be nice with 20 fury? Even a fucking mediocre nuke he could spam. A damn spell besides Transference(which is a shitty ass spell PP continues to try and get people to use) that actually uses all that fury.

Fucking something that lets him actually do shit besides camp and do nothing.

Annihilator is easily one of the worst nukes in the game, and 20 fury isn't going to fix all the shit that's wrong with it.

Never mind the fact that Zaal turned into another beatstick/support caster in a faction with nothing but that. Would it fucking kill PP to give Skorne a real control warlock?

>>46314384
>ou know what would be nice with 20 fury? Even a fucking mediocre nuke he could spam. A damn spell besides Transference(which is a shitty ass spell PP continues to try and get people to use) that actually uses all that fury.

Dark Guidance, for ex.

"Poor man's Skarre1" was a pretty shrewd take I think.

>>46314670
Yea, Dark Guidance would be nice on him.

So would Oblit. Without a reliable way to arc it, it doesn't represent a easy mode assassination, and it would let him pick his attrition back up when he loses half his army.

>>46314384
>>46314048
It's funny, I know pretty much every model in this game but I could not tell you one spell on Zaal2's card. What the fuck does he even do besides pop feat?

>>46314384

So what lists are people running with him? Theme is very restrictive and I'm surprised transference and feat are enough to pull a win if he's not getting lots of soul tokens.

>>46312638
>I'm detecting a lot of misdirected anger.

Perhaps because you're whining about a caster having "crippling weaknesses" that amount to stuff that *every* caster has to deal with at some point?

>Mat 7 is a good stat, what the lack of mat buff means however is that your output is significantly diminished throughout the game.

This is just stupid. Not having constant MAT fixers available is not "diminished", it's *normal* for fuck's sake. And Doomy3 has MAT fixers, just not the exact kind you want.

>Not to mention an easier def upkeep removal in the case of doomy 1.

Doomy3 sucks because he doesn't have Purification. Gotcha.

>Defenders warded errants are a real bitch to remove for mulg under doomy 3 since 7s to hit are barely at the cusp of acceptable odds.

So you can't cast Repudiate? I mean, I realize that Protectorate has anti-spell tech, but you can get around it. It's also one matchup.

>Same with fire eaters. They are a self sufficient package that's good in all lists.

And? What's your point? They're good, general purpose, can be taken with Doomy3, line up with some of your claimed "crippling weaknesses", benefit from his MAT-fixer minifeat, but apparently don't count for some fucking stupid reason?

>Doomy's mat fixing is not above average. It's barely existing if at all.

His feat gives boosted melee attack rolls to battlegroup. One of his minifeats gives boosted attack rolls to friendly faction warriors. He has decent MAT fixing, not great, but calling it "barely existing" is just fucking stupid. I mean, sure it requires more skill to use well than, say, eMorv, but he can throw a lot of extra attack roll dice if played well.

>Finally, doomy just runs out of points fast.

+3 warbeast points is a crippling weakness. Gotcha.

Just fucking play eMorv, you don't sound like you'd be happy with any other caster, since most of your arguments boil down to "he doesn't have the sum of the best abilities of these other casters".

>>46315632
His theme just takes a shit load of fairly tough models and makes them even tougher. Lot of lists don't have the quality of attacks to take off enough of his shit on feat turn, and killing anything just gives him vengeance moves to work with. And then he shoves a bunch of decently high POW models into your face and just grinds you down.

It requires essentially nothing from Zaal himself besides knowing when to pop feat and the occasional transference use to get the odds a bit better.

>>46293046
Have you ever considered the possibility that only half of his abilities at once is actually capable of competitive levels of play?

>>46316184
Given that the competitive list he runs involves none of his abilities, no.

Besides, who the fuck would design a caster that can only ever use half of his kit with his lists and think it was a good idea?

>>46316204
>Besides, who the fuck would design a caster that can only ever use half of his kit with his lists and think it was a good idea?
Someone who wants a caster that can be used in a lot of difference lists rather than a caster that just gets pigeonholed.

>>46316241
Well, they fucking failed at that one, didn't they?

So clue me in here; who's the big cheese of each faction?

>>46315715
The stuff that every caster has to deal with becomes a problem when they can't answer it.
As for normalcy of output, normal is not good enough. Mulg demands most value in doomy 3 list due to how much of the list he eats up pointwise compared to other casters and how few in numbers that consequently causes the army to have.
Repudiate is good, but that alone can't make a caster good.
Defward errants are an example and there are far greater challenges still. Khador was already mentioned. General high def, arcing fire, kayazy elements in lists are all very dangerous. Haley 3 is also a defensive skew that harms him. It's more than one matchup is my point.

Fire eaters were omitted because they didn't actually fix the mat of the beast, which I assumed was the point of contention. If not, sure FE are good. Let us assume that they will kill all the tarpits before dying.
As for the whole mat fixing thing, one is a feat that he can rarely use offensively and second is for model type that he will bring very sparingly if at all.

E morvhanna was a cancer that was only cured by greater cancers

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>>46315715
>>46316437
Just accept that Trolls are garbage tier and move on guys. Nobody actually gives a shit about Doomy3 and no one is worried about him. Just play Circle and enjoy winning games.

>>46316617
There will be some attention to Doomy 3 when WTC rears its ugly head. The format is perfect for him.

>>46314670
It's not even that. He's a poor man's Vlad2 with worse infantry.

>>46316733
Sure, but WTC has zero bearing on the actual meta. What's good in WTC is probably still garbage in everything else.

>>46315632
Basically, Zaal2 in theme lets his army be delivered with minimal casualties. This is a novelty for most Skorne players. The problem is, he's basically just a walking feat and Transference bot. With maybe 6 boosts a turn and no real support for his army outside of Transference and the feat, there's not a lot he can do since anything that gets to him will kill him.

>>46317003
Eh depends. The first wtc was an eye opener for both sides across the pond. I remember circle and legion being quite interesting. The last couple have been very dull though.

>>46313625
The problem is that if he builds his "balanced" army, he can really only support one part of it per turn and in doing so, the whole thing just becomes less effective. Skorne single wound infantry are hard to deliver and crap offensively barring Nihilators, and even they die like flies without some kind of defensive buff. Zaal2 makes Immortals competent as they can now be delivered safely and can get some work done with Transference. The problem is that in order to do that, you need souls and the more living models you have, the less effective the feat becomes at delivering your army. And the Feat is his ONLY way of delivering his army.

>>46312870
Rahn wins

Next game is Ossyan vs Madrak1

Place Bets

>>46316312
Like, who's most in charge?

Cyngar - Would likely be Stryker as the highest ranking dude, but not everyone is under his command

Khador - In general military, Irusk.

Worth noting that both of them have a king and queen respectively who are ultimately in charge. Khador also has the Old Witch, who's in theory in charge of everyone Khador side.

Menoth - Sevvy

Cryx - Nobody, it's a huge batch of infighting.

Ret - In terms of the actual Organization, Vyros, with his sister Issyria doing shit in the shadows.

Convergence - Mother, though Lucant is essentially the founder of the entire sect in it's modern form.

Mercs - Mercs

Trolls - Tie between Doomshaper and Madrak, both have a lot of power

Legion - Technically Thags, with Vayl having a lot of power as well. Really though, the dragon.

Skorne - Makeda

Circle - The three Omnipotents, of which Moshar is the only one with a model. Cassius is doing his own shit

Minions - Minions

Of course, the factions aren't quite as unified as all of this, with a lot of infaction fighting, people with vastly different jobs, and others just kind of waiting in the wings.

>>46317050
>Basically, Zaal2 in theme lets his army be delivered with minimal casualties. This is a novelty for most Skorne players.

Oh God, I'm laughing. It's funny because it's true.

>and this, anons, is how a 50 point list with all of four model-types on the table (barring warbeasts) in which the warlock does nothing but cast one spell once, feat, and camp can be new and exciting to people

>>46317456
>Cryx - Nobody, it's a huge batch of infighting.

Terminus, I thought.

>>46319792
Terminus is one of the generals, yes. But at this point, Gaspy has his own army very nearly as powerful as Terminus's, and Venethrax can pretty much take whatever he wants from the others so long as he can justify it being related to dealing with a dragon.

>>46315832

Or gives an Extoler Advocate a soul. Someday people are going to know not to do that, but for now it's skorne Happy Time.

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>>46319792
For intents and purposes, Terminus is the 'head' general, but because of how Cryx is structured an individual is only as important as what they accomplish. You can do what you want, as long as it doesn't interrupt Toruk's work too much. Gaspy has been building his own personal army, with Denny backing him up. Venethrax is Toruk's expert on dragons and dragon-killing in the field, so he tends to have a lot of lee-way in getting what he wants Mortenebra spends her days building bigger and meaner bonejacks and helljacks. Scaverous is sent out to spy and interrogate while on the job, and collects information and artifacts in his free time. Skarre goes where she's told (or wherever her prophetic dreams tell her), as long as her and her crews can rape and pillage along the way. Finally, the Witch Coven exist in a perpetual orgy with one another and a spiked death sphere.

>>46317456
What is Cassius's own shit? I don't really know his fluff