Where's the new bread thread?
>Rules databases
https://mega.co.nz/#F!pFgm0RKR!J06C1gVYcjzNGsF8YNLsjQ
https://kat.cr/warhammer-40k-pdf-library-t9575373.html
>FAQs
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Rules-Errata
>40k 7th edition quick reference sheet(s)
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4104995/Games/7edRef_V6.pdf
>Forgeworld Book index
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Forge_World_and_Apocalypse_Rules_Index
I claim this thread in the name of Nguyen, the top tourneyfag in florida. He puts lascannons on Raiders and wins.
>>46116946
>He puts lascannons on Raiders and wins.
U wot m8
Did someone actually win a tourny with DE?
Claiming this thread for the Salamanders
>>46116967
You'd be surprised what people who actually can play the game in a tournament standard are capable of. Simply by knowing and playing the rules by RAW and knowing their own and their enemies team inside and out. They probably drink Eldar and Tau tears for breakfast every day, and still play the bottom tier teams to boot.
>best comment from the long war channel "people are like, what the hell happened? Chaos is supposed to suck!"
So I /40kgen/ I'm quite tired of just shooting the enemy to death as the Tau. I know "it's there thing" but if I'm going to be called a weeboo space communist than I better get at least one melee unit. So I proposed an idea for a home brewed weapon and I'd like to know your thoughts.
Essentially we make Fusion Blades standard wargear at 25 pts, but only available to Crisis suits. The major tweaks to it however is that Fusion Blades will have a special rule in that they can use marker light tokens to up their user's WS. However, when you do this, the unit wielding FB cannot be grouped up with other units using the Coordinated Firepower rule to share marker lights unless that friendly unit is using FBs as well, forcing you to choose between up BS or WS. Additionally a unit can use it's own markerlights as if it were a networked markerlight to up its WS. (The underlying logic behind this is that usually your markerlights will hit first before your melee, rather than at the same time with shooting.) Additionally the shorting out rule would be removed.
What do you guys think? Is this fair? Would this generally be an acceptable homebrew to the table for most players at my LGS? Feel free to add anything to help me flesh out this idea better.
>>46117009
>Gets beaten to it by deldar
How appropriate. How embarrassing.
>>46117107
This exactly. I went to a Tournament awhile back with my Raptors, and I got my ass handed to me on a silver platter by someone playing Black Legion Chaos. No Chosen, No Daemons, No Psykers. 6 Tactical Squads in Rhinos, 2 Havoc Squads, and some terminators. The vast majority of his points were smartly spent on upgrades and legacies.
It was my only loss in that tourney, but man I could never live up to getting beaten by a chaos player pretending to be marines, with an objectively inferior codex.
>>46117107
I've always been tempted to check out that channel, is it worth my time?
>>46117172
Yea it stings doesn't it. When you get handed because of a optimized list, or a wicked formation, its like an ok deal. But simply being outmaneuvered, loosing on points, and generally being outsmarted by those small things.
>knowing where your fist is so when engaging cc, assault from a flank that makes you unable to engage the fist sergeant.
>blocking of los to his own men using rhinos, picking of individual squad members with focus fire effect, taking out all those dangerous weapons you got.
>Knowing just about how much is needed for the exact task at hand, throwing away the remains of a damaged guardsman veteran unit just so they can pick of that last wound/hp with a freaking grenade! And down goes your knight/wraith knight
Is the Reaper Autocannon worth taking in a five man Termi squad? 25 points seems pretty expensive for AP4, although TW is nice.
>>46117322
Well it depends. I like it more and more every time I watch. Its a hell of a lot of commercials for regulars like me, but thats to be expected when they have a service to pay for.
I used to be a real beer and pretzel guy, but these guys have changed my mindset on how 40k really works. For the first time in a long time I was like "Fuck me.. Theres actual tactics in this game, I mean real tactics!"
>>46117390
can be, but usually isn't
heavy flamer or another combi-weapon will more often than not be a better buy
>>46117114
I think a lot of people are going to knee-jerk at it. There are people in my group who are STILL upset that Crisis Suits get S5 and 2 attacks, even if it's at initiative 2.
Personally, I think it could be neat, but might tip balance a little too harshly.
>>46117442
>>46117442
Being beer and pretzels isn't bad though, it just depeneds on what the hobby means to you, as a way to unwind and have some fun with mates is in no way inferior or better than using real tactics and playing to win (without being a cheese-mongering WAAC faggot of course).
>>46117494
what if I keep the shorting out bit? maybe it'll seem more fair to others? again it seems mostly situational and I've limited it to just Crisis Suits.
>>46117545
The point though as they point out, is that if two players of equal WAAC faggotry meat, its not really WAAC at all. Its all on equal terms, just as the beer and pretzel players, though on a tougher scale.
The game is still about to outsmart the other player, using tactics, and the tools at your disposal. The difference is that the tournament player feels no shame in using all the tools in the box, as where the casual player might thing "ey.. thats a bit to much now".
The interesting parts comes when you have a tournament player that actually cares for the hobby as well, a player that cares for a fluffy, fully painted army, but still doesn't shy of trying the really mean lists. And I find this is the case for the long war channel, and thus I have grown found of it.
>>46117114
Try it out with one of your mates who's interested. Personally I'm not a fan, I really don't think the tau need a harder melee edge. Because they're so strong in other areas, but the idea is certainly an interesting one. Try it out, let us know what happens.
What is best hive fleet
>>46117646
Shorting out is arguably already the most frustrating part of the Fusion Blade (or other "chance to blow" weapons). Perhaps moving the Onager Gauntlet from a Signature System to a Support System and raising its cost would do something similar. It still keeps the suits relatively vulnerable to large masses of enemies, but they feel more "elite" against very heavy targets like walkers and ICs, especially if you're not running teams of just one or two to pad out your list for formations.
>>46117390
>>46117466
So what would make it worth taking? One more shot?
Fluffwise it was the predecessor to the assault cannon. Lower rate of fire, but jammed less frequently.
>>46117691
I should try it out, that mentality is how I see it, but I really wish there wasn't such a difference in power between the stronger codex and a weaker one
>>46117114
That's dumb. You're dumb.
>>46117882
I think an extra shot would make the weapon itself worth 25 points, though I'm not sure if it'd still be a good option.
You have to buy 2 extra terminators to even access it, and even if you do it's not gonna work well with the other members of the squad. Their weapons are either short range anti-armor and one shot, anti-infantry, or melee. A twin-linked autocannon is really out of place in the squad
>>46117882
if you have plenty of anti-tank in the army it might be better to get another combi weapon or flamer instead
I use autocannons to pop transports mostly
>>46117761
Hence why I kinda wanted to remove it. The Tau already have poor initiative and are generally more fragile compared to other more melee oriented units. This would be a lot more situational and as you said give them a more "elite" feel against heavy units. I'm not sure about the Onager gauntlets though, I don't think that would set well with anyone.
>>46117727
Yea I guess the best thing I can do is play test this. Imo I don't think it balances it too much to where they become melee oriented, but gives them at least one good unit to melee with (because I like honoburu combat).
I'm starting to get frustrated and regret that I picked Tau as my army. On one hand, I was immediately attracted to all the battle suits and at first I thought the shooting style of play was unique to the Tau. But after some more battle report observation I realized that you can also have a tendency to just sit their and gun-line it, which is opposite to how I like to play. I've kinda remedied this by playing in a more alternative way to standard Tau lists but I sometimes wish I could field more variety in my army.
Also I'm starting to lost interest in how they look, wish I had SOME melee units, and something that was more evul (because to me, half the fun of 40k is being a grimdark, mustache twirling psychopath).
Really confused. Generally in war games I favor high mobility or something that enables me to do lots of maneuvers. Small more compact elite units. And if it allows me, some melee because I like to slaughter.
I'm very confused as what to pick as my second army. On one hand, I'm starting to think I should've picked Eldar. I like the way their models look, they have armored suits (wraiths), giant robots (wraith knights), cool high mobility units (jet bikes), and some cool looking swords and melee stuff. Albeit they aren't that evil but compared to the Tau they are a little bit more and they're the manipulative bastards of the galaxy.
cont.
>>46118031
But I'm starting to loath 7th Editions Formation meta and I don't want to just out cheese my opponent, I actually want to beat them through sound maneuver, tactics, and strategy.
Then I looked at Dark Eldar and liked their story, the way their models looked, and their general evilness but I absolutely hate their play style. I don't mind that their codex is rather weak, it's just the one thing I don't care for is all the transport barges. Which don't really look attractive to me. Yes their mobile but they don't really do much to me besides some light firing and transport. Their guns are meh and so are their weapons asides. I think the poisons and drugs are cool but doesn't really wow me with their abilities.
Then I looked at Khorne Daemonkin. And generally their rules are pretty cool and I can slaughter for Khorne through melee and still have some dakka units like the LOS and the Forefiends, but I generally hate the way most of their units look. One of the biggest reasons I did not play 40k with my friends for the longest time is because I thought spess muhreens looked stupid (and I didn't think there was a lot of tactical maneuvering in it, and to an extent, their isn't) I'm crossing my fingers that they'll get some better sculpts with better poses for the Berzerkers.
cont.
>>46117172
What are legacies? clearly not something in the chaos codex so already he's leaning on a outside crutch.
And jesus that sounds like a snorefest. even as a former 3.5 IW player i know the modern face of chaos is it's daemonkin, cultists and daemon-engines.The legions are dead, the warband lives on.
Fuck being marines with spikey bitz that shit was always boring and i can only hope they expand upon the unique chaos units in the next book whenever that might be.
>>46118129
Then I looked at Tyranids were originally my first choice. I like their models, their rules are okay to me for the most part, and they've got some decent melee and shooting applications to me. But as I said before, I favor a small elite army, so hordes aren't really my thing at all. Plus if it wasn't already obvious, I also care about the fluff, and there isn't really much opportunities to make a Tyranid unit uniquely my own without deviating away from the Hive Mind in such a way that it seems retarded or Gary Stue-ish
Finally I've been thinking about Necrons but the problem is they're incredibly slow, they're already dangerously cheesy, and a majority of my friends play them so it'll be rather monotonous to play with a bunch of necrons all the time. This is a minor gripe too but I'm not a very big fan of the Egyptian themed Newcrons, and I generally don't have an idea of a style of combat that I'd play with them.
In short, I'm having faction identity issues. Pls halp. Is there a faction I would like? Should I just start playing a different war game? What though?
>>46118190
Imperial armour thingies.
>>46118031
>>46118129
How do you feel about Space Marines? Drop Pods allow for safe deep strikes that lead to clever outflanking, they get bikes and land speeders (though I will admit both look a little silly), and your units are all elites but small in number, so putting them to use is easy to learn but hard to master. I'd imagine the "heavy armor and bulky vehicles" appearance isn't that appealing if you liked Eldar, though.
>>46118129
>>46118217
What a fucking blog post, holy shit
>>46118286
How dare somebody talk about 40k in a 40k thread amirite.
>>46118217
What about Grey Knights? small army, easy to paint and their terminators always look good. you can also enjoy every phase rather than picking an army without psykers and never experiencing it
>>46117114
>Essentially we make Fusion Blades standard wargear at 25 pts, but only available to Crisis suits.
I kinda like this, because the cost makes it highly prohibitive, and on an already expensive model, who is only WS2 and I2, you are looking at a 67 point model with 2 S8 AP1 attacks with armour bane, only protected by T4, 2W and 3+ armour save. The balance issue is that, despite the cost, you still have a twin-linked melta on a highly mobile unit, who can absolutely CRUSH anything in melee, and pretty much any AV model is absolutely fucked if faced with a unit of 3 of these guys, because if the 3 twin-linked melta shot doesn't do it, the 9 S8 AP1 armourbane attacks will.
They will, however, fold to any kind of melee unit ever.
>The major tweaks to it however is that Fusion Blades will have a special rule in that they can use marker light tokens to up their user's WS. However, when you do this, the unit wielding FB cannot be grouped up with other units using the Coordinated Firepower rule to share marker lights unless that friendly unit is using FBs as well, forcing you to choose between up BS or WS. Additionally a unit can use it's own markerlights as if it were a networked markerlight to up its WS. (The underlying logic behind this is that usually your markerlights will hit first before your melee, rather than at the same time with shooting.)
What? No. Markerlights only last for the phase in which they are fired, so they don't carry over. You also can't shoot into close combat, and you cannot shoot after hitting close combat.
Don't try to change markerlights. That is dumb as hell, and their low WS is the only balancing thing about them. Keep it that way, thank you.
>Additionally the shorting out rule would be removed.
WHY.jpg
This is such a core and integral part of Fusion Blades that removing it is straight up stupid. If you do this, do something else, like reduce the strength to 7 to make up for it.
>>46118335
>How dare somebody talk about 40k in a 40k thread amirite.
feel free, but that was a fucking retarded wall of text on a conversational image board
>>46118190
They're called Legacies of Ruin from Imperial Armour 13. Legacies of Ruin are basically veterancy for vehicles that are all small upgrades that give the vehicle a special ability. It can be things like an AOE Fearless bubble, Preferred Enemy Space Marines, or even Interceptor. They all stem from the idea that the vehicle in question is a veteran of some particular campaign from the Horus Heresy, such as The Scouring, The Drop Site Massacre, or the War Of Murder.
Space Marines ALSO get Legacies, except they're called Legacies of Glory. For example the one I use is called Veteran of Murder, which grants Monster Hunter to one of my Dreadnoughts. 4
>>46117882
terminators not being so one-note
like, they have meltaguns and power/chainfists for popping tanks. And the long range is wasted on them since footslogging terminators is the stupidest idea ever.
>>46118031
>>46118129
>>46118217
Just suck a dick and play eldar. You know you're going to. You seem to want to try other things then reject them as soon as you discover their rules aren't good enough.
Alternatively, wait for the next op codex release.
>>46118031
>Hence why I kinda wanted to remove it. The Tau already have poor initiative and are generally more fragile compared to other more melee oriented units.
Remember the options you have for them.
Assuming Fusion Blades costs 2 item choices, like it does on a commander, you still have an option for FnP or a 4+ invul.
Not to mention that you still have BOTH a really powerful melee weapon, you also have a twin linked melta gun. That is some flexibility that very few dedicated melee units has.
>>46117378
He was indeed genuinely a good player, and indeed played smart the whole game with his positioning. What really hurt me though was that my army build hinged on the idea of hard-countering some of the nastier tournament lists, by allowing me to take whatever I want off the board, and force reserves to never even arrive on the table. It was a grab-bag of various goodies such as reserve shennanigans, army-wide infiltrate, and alpha-strike immunity.
It was like a master swordsman trying to have a duel with a literal brick wall. All of his fancy techniques don't help him kill a brick wall. Infiltrating grav-cannons may help me against wraithspam, but it didn't do shit to 6 10-man tac squads in rhinos, that can eat the shots on their behalf.
If I salvage the turret from an old BMP and slap it on a Chimera, would it be enough to count as a heavy bolter?
>>46118341
>They will, however, fold to any kind of melee unit ever.
>implying any melee unit will ever catch them
>>46118461
>>46118341
Do remember that fusion blades are single weapon with 2 profiles. So if you fire fusion blades, you can't use them in assault phase same turn and vice versa.
>>46118666
Still gives you the option of shooting and running away from something you don't want to assault.
Question, Im debating oh what is the best way to make a CC Dreadnought with a drop pod. Which one of the three works best? and what kind of upgrades should i give it? Im thinking one ranged weapon and one fist, but is it worth taking two fist weapons? Thoughts?
>>46118797
CC dreads are bad. If you insist ironclad is the way to go
>>46118592
>>implying any melee unit will ever catch them
Keep the dedicated melee units close to vital units that cannot handle the crisis suits in close combat, and the suits will come to them, or be wasted.
A unit of 5 crisis suits is 10 attacks, 15 on the charge, and costs upwards of around 400 points if given the fusion blades, so that's a fuckton of points wasted on nothing.
They aren't THAT fast, so they can't just dart towards the closest target without any counterplay.
>>46118666
My thoughts exactly. Pick related, it clearly states you choose one option per TURN, not phase.
>>46118823
Ok cool, well if I did use a dread for both range and the occasional melee what kind of weapons would you give an iron clad?
>>46118847
>or be wasted.
Except fusion blades can then simply be used as deadly jumping melta
I just finished the space marine vidya and, while I'm convinced that Titus did nothing wrong and that we need a sequel just to punch Leandros in the face, I was wondering if there are some recommendable books to explore the grimdark and complex lore with?
>>46119007
Go to Books a Million, and ask for Dan Abnett. They'll hand you a copy of Dan Abnett's "The Lost". Or some other Gaunt's Ghosts novel. They'll also do this if you say you're new to 40k, and want to read a good 40k novel.
Is 3D printing figures an option?
>>46119007
Most of Abbnet's stuff is good. The Eisenhorn Trilogy is probably the best 40k series I've ever read.
>>46118847
>Which to use each turn
Does that mean I could never use a ranged profile for a weapon and then it's melee profile in the same turn?Is there really no hope for burna boys?
>>46119067
Dan Abnett is pretty cool, just finished "Horus Rising"
There are a lot of words which are sparsely used in spoken english, which is good, as broadens my horizons.
>>46118236
Yea you're pretty spot on. Since I've started playing and reading the lore I don't mind the aesthetic so much when they're in full armor. I've thought about it several times. Maybe I'd play vanilla marines or Blood Angles or Dark Angels. But yea I tend to already deepstrike with my Tau a lot anyways in my current playstyle. I wish I could field a little more without having to be Enclave.
Although I was reading in the wiki's tacita that I'd like to verify on here: Enclave/Dawn Blade can take vanilla Empire Sig systems now?
>>46118341
Yea I forgot to take into account prolonged melee combat. Still Crisis suits are pretty fragile and slow so I feel like it's a glass cannon type of thing I'm going for. Still in my head I'd like them to be fairly competent against melee oriented units without outclassing them. Does anyone have any alternatives to this? Maybe they can just us the WS Mk for the first turn?
And yea idk I'm pretty sure the shorting out thing is still kinda on the fence. It's already taking up two slots, so if it fucks up, your Crisis suits are fucked up, which imo is a little too harsh. Perhaps there can be a happy medium, rather than shorting out, what if it Gets Hot? like other weapons?
>>46118461
Eh that's true.. Still FnP I think is readily available to other factions (looking at Necron and Nurgle Marines) and there are plenty of TEQ units with better invulns
>>46118592
Yea I'll have to see how this works out with vectored retrothrusters.
>>46118452
I just stated I hate Overcheesed units and factions. Even with my Tau I've avoided using Stormsurges or the ridiculously OP things I could do to them, and I try to keep my Riptide spam to a minimum. And that's not true at all, I've rejected some factions based on aesthetic or fluff reasons too. Or soley because they were too Cheesy (Eldar)
>>46118335
Actually yea I've really considered them too. However I'm afraid they're too OP sometimes. But maybe not.
>>46117009
Salamanders are closet orks because they are green
Claimed=Orks
>>46116549
7th ed quick reference PDF is down :I
>>46118944
>Except fusion blades can then simply be used as deadly jumping melta
At more than twice the original cost.
Twin linked fusion blaster costs 20 points. Fusion blades upgrade as proposed costs 25. That's 45 points for a single twin linked melta shot. That is overpriced and expensive as shit, and on an already expensive model (23 points base in a farsight army)
>>46119151
Unfortunately not. Most people probably wont stop you if you are already playing Ork, though. I know a local Ork player who does this, and despite knowing of the actual rule, I am not "correcting" him, because why the fuck would I?
>>46118847
From where I sit, you already have a unit that is somehow already melee decent (at least by "melee" army standards) when you look at it's stats and capabilities.
Now you want your "better powerclaws" to have no drawback on an already shooty unit with great movement and better than average survivability.
>homebrew easy access to "S8 AP1 attacks with armour bane" into actual melee codexes and then we'll talk bluecheese
>>46119098
technically yes, but the product isn't really great and the whole process/cost is economically less attractive than just buying MSRP
>>46119168
>better invulns
But not many with multiple wounds.
>I try to keep my Riptide spam to a minimum.
<6 ?
>>46119285
This. Crisis suits are already decently skilled in close combat when taken naked.
If you want to homebrew ways to make them better there, start smaller
>>46118362
>Implying chaos gets access to interceptor
>>46119168
>Yea I forgot to take into account prolonged melee combat. Still Crisis suits are pretty fragile and slow so I feel like it's a glass cannon type of thing I'm going for. Still in my head I'd like them to be fairly competent against melee oriented units without outclassing them. Does anyone have any alternatives to this? Maybe they can just us the WS Mk for the first turn?
No, let them have that weakness. They are a dedicated can opener unit, so they'll fuck up terminator heavy weapon squads, and tanks. They should NOT be able to take on dedicated melee units as well. Now you are being a powergaming faggot. A unit should not have powerful shooting, hyper mobility, AND a strong melee phase.
>And yea idk I'm pretty sure the shorting out thing is still kinda on the fence. It's already taking up two slots, so if it fucks up, your Crisis suits are fucked up, which imo is a little too harsh. Perhaps there can be a happy medium, rather than shorting out, what if it Gets Hot? like other weapons?
In my honest opinion, I don't think you should change it, because then you might as well just give them a new kind of melee weapon, rather than a super powered powerfist without drawbacks.
>>46119285
>72p
>twinlinked melta OR 2 s8 ap2 armorbane attacks at I2 ws2
>jetpack
>2w marine
72p
>>46119285
I am arguing against him, actually. I like the fusion blades (Because 45 point power weapons are rather fairly priced), but his attempts at making crisis suits super good and capable of not only destroying anything with AV, but also capable of going head-to-head with dedicated melee units, is completely pants-on-head retarded.
>>46118500
Hang on a minute son, are you seriously trying to take a HB turret over the Multilas goodness that comes default?
Also, if anything, a BMP turret would look more like an autocannon turretAnother thing you should never even consider taking you degenerate.
>>46119395
And yet it's still better than a Nob Biker with a Power Claw
>>46119336
><6?
Very funni. No I just use usually 1 riptide, because that's all I need. Maybe 2 if I'm playing with variants.
>>46119418
No, it's not :)
Okay so I've settled on not giving it any Markerlight tokens but I'm firmly set on replacing the shorting out rule with gets hot.
>>46119449
It is better. No way to get deapstriking nob bikers with BS4 melta weapons. Might not be worth the points, but it is better.
>>46119449
The only benefit Nobs have in this case is better Weapon Skill and 12 movement, while also being more expensive and worse in a ton of other areas
>>46119395
>72 points
Close, Farsight requires bonding knife, so +1 point.
But a model should never excel in both mobility, ranged, durability AND melee. EVER. Having capabilities in all 4 is fine, but being good in all 4, and top-of-the-line in 2 or more is just broken. You'd need to be at least at 100 ppm with this kind of setup.
>>46119504
>BS4
>He thinks Tau has BS4 on anything
How cute.
>>46119067
>>46119138
>>46119158
Thanks guys! Guess I will pick up one of Abnett's novels then.
>>46117691
>the point as they point it out
AFAIK, "real tactics" were not invented by competitive players, but leveraging any typo or loophole to secure victory certainly was. Jervis used to eyeroll so hard he detached a retina when carping about the "spirit of the game" and he swore to do something about it.
We see how that worked out ...
Still, gaming has always been about people having fun in their precious off-hours and moving on to the next game, but WAACfags [ime] all come across as srs biz, like it's their job or something. Sure, the winner will claim it was "fun" tabling a scrub AFTER a match, but there's not a lot of joy to be found DURING such matchups (where conduct usually lies somewhere between pokerface and a frustrated scowl).
Another factor is that, while one's army is supposed [sotg] to be rolepleyed a bit as eager to defeat their enemies when "forging a narrative" as they say, WAACfags seem disturbingly intent on beating their opponent - matches aren't just SERIOUS, they're also PERSONAL.
[shrug] I get that this is obviously okay for the thousands who evidently enter US tournaments of their own volition, but it's not my cuppa, and I suspect it's a large part of the reason GW stopped sanctioning competitive events outside of WHW.
Well, that went longer than expected.
Hey, can anyonre tell me where the formations/detatchments are listed in the Astra Militarrum codex? I've been rootign throguh and I'm either blind or they aren't here.
Alternatively, any dataslates that can help?
>>46119557
>>He thinks Tau has BS4 on anything
That cheating tau bastard.
>>46119613There are none, welcome to pre-7th life.Either go for the Cadia decurion type in Mont'Ka or despair in the corner like me.The Starter box rule is bretty good though.
Do you get an extra attack for each melee weapon you have in CC?
My Space wolves dreadnaught has 2 base, with the axe and shield does he gain any attacks?
>>46119651
You get 1 more attack if you have a spare CC weapon or a pistol as long as the weapon you are attacking with is not two-handed/specialist. (Specialist still works I think if you have 2 of the same weapon) No shenanigans by having tons of weapons though.
>>46119651
>This and many more will be answered in the next episode of Read the fucking manual.
>>46119649
Considering I was going to run them as slaansehi renegades anyway, I choose Despair.
>>46119724
/40kg/ will never stop spoonfeeding these retards.
It's honestly the second biggest problem on this fucking general
>>46119264
>At more than twice the original cost.
But they still have the utility of being able to rape most things in either phase.
>>46119787
So do terminators with assault cannon. And somehow they are considered shit.
>>46119724
>>46119761
>being this mad about a game of small soliders
who hurt you?
>>46119881
>enjoys being legitimately stupid
wew
>>46119168
>Enclave/Dawn Blade can take vanilla Empire Sig systems now?
Yep. Iridium Fusion Blade suits, and Farsight Buffmanders.
>>46119829
Because it's a single model with an assault cannon, and they're not going to be as mobile.
If terminators could load up on heavy weapons and jet around like nonsense, I think they'd be used a lot more.
>>46119881
>insecurity: the post
>>46119829
>A single terminator in a squad with an assault cannon is comparable to a unit of JSJing suits with the option for either meltas are CC rape
srsly?
>>46119931
This guy knows.
I love the look of Bullgryn, but I would hesitate before taking them because they are too shit to fight melee units but too goodRead:Expensiveto be used on other mooks.
Tau don't know how good they have it with Crisis suits, a relatively cheap unit that is godly at range, decent in melee and can zip around like a spastic on a sugar rush.
How much fun would running 3 squadrons of 3 penitent engines each be?
Thinking about 6 S10 AP2 attacks on the charge per engine is making me giddy.
Not to mention each engine has 2 Heavy Flamers.
>>46120046
Got to remember, taufags cannot into balance.
>>46119787
Why not rule it that you can use it in Melee OR shooting. Maybe chuck on Gets Hot (if what I read on the fluff about them malfunctioning because of power usage is correct) to make them a bit more balanced. Then they wouldn't be OP and you could reasonably find someone who'll play against them.
>>46120084
In the current meta? Terrible. AV11 isn't going to last long enough to get them into combat, since they have to foot slog.
>>46120067
Not to mention how customizable they are. You can run crisis suits as anti-anything with all their different guns, and can go for anything from a 9 man squad to a lone model.
I wish other elites had even half the options they did.
>>46120046
Well we are throwing out hyperboles here.
>But they still have the utility of being able to rape most things in either phase.
Power fist bitches in melee, assault cannon niggas in shooting. Funny thing is, the terminator can do both in the same turn and costs 17p less.
>>46120134
One of them can do it. In a 5 man squad. The rest of the squad does berry little.
>>46120134
>17 points less
Don't forget about the cost of the 4 other terminators you have to buy that can't do that.
>>46120046
Considering the "CC Rape" is almost 80 points, that's a lot more than 1 terminator with an assault cannon. Comparing the costs, terminators are sure as hell comparable, if not straight up better.
Stop being a dumb fucker. You are the reason Taufags thinks so lowly of marine players, because you keep acting like ignorant little kids who has never actually seen the rules you are complaining about.
>>46120109
>Why not rule it that you can use it in Melee OR shooting.
That is already there. That is literally in the core rulebook. Someone even posted it in this very thread.
God damnit.
>>46120134
And he's a single wound and slow as fuck unit. If I'm facing marines I'm very rarely scared of the shitters across the map with the assault cannon. I'm far more scared of the squad of units with melta and blob removing weapons that can squish my guard in melee and jump away like pussies from any actual threats. Shoot and run alone should double the points value of any unit.
Thunderhammers worth the extra 5pts?
>>46120110
What'll take them down? Massed S7 weapons or Melta?
>>46120257
If you are expecting your units to be fighting vehicles or maybe MC/GCs? Yes. Otherwise I would stick with something that lets you hit first.
>>46120206
Never played against Tau and I must have missed someone saying. Well there's still the gets hot suggestion. Could add an element of risk and you never see it in Melee weapons.
>>46120109
>Maybe chuck on Gets Hot (if what I read on the fluff about them malfunctioning because of power usage is correct) to make them a bit more balanced
Nah, just keep the Power Outage.
Risking losing a 45 point weapon is a very good balancing factor, because it means that first round of combat HAS to count, and if it doesn't, and you roll a 1, you now has an overpriced naked crisis suit.
>>46120245
>Shoot and run alone should double the points value of any unit.
And yet IG can Shoot and move with heavy weapon squads by using a simple order that practically can't fail, and allow them to ignore cover as well.
Do remember that all armies have different advantages.
War zone fenris part 2
If you wondered about the shit art lots of it is from this cunt
https://www.instagram.com/p/BC89kS2O_Pr/
>>46120293
A moderate amount of S6 (Which is common as fuck now) would turn the lot of it to slag.
>>46120346
He is also doing age of sigmar - so I guess the idea was to anime 40k
>gonna try out these home brew fusion blade suits
>pay cheap, cheap price of landraider+ for 4 of them.
>that's 4 twin-linked meltaguns! Unless I want to charge with them, then I can't shoot. Tough luck
>At least these are durable as tactical marines! You know, those immortal behemoths everyone is afraid of.
>wiff one jet pack move, suddenly half of the squad is dead, heh guess that happens every now and then
>finally get to charge something, get shit beaten in because orkish iniative, last suit alive on its last legs
>3 attacks baby! Only need 4+ to hit. End up killing one fucking marine
>still get called waacfag for bringing this literal deathstar unit that has super powerclaws and meltaguns
should i sell my classic harlequins? about 13 of them inc troupe master and a jester
>>46120391
Also seen some young wulfen with backpack mounted canons firing like a Titan carapace weaponisation
>>46120328
IG units can't process more than a single order per turn.
And it's a Ld check on the unit being ordered, i.e. Ld8, which can quite easily fail. A Vox caster network is far too expensive to guarantee an order's success.
>>46120328
>all armies have different advantages.
You must be new here. Welcome to /40kg/ where Tau and Eldar have 100% of the advantages and Orks, CSM and Tyranids have none.As I type this I'm not even sure if I'm being sarcastic.
I last played back in around 2008/9 and recently found the "Space Marine Masters of the Chapter" and some of the Vets and Mk2 Vets but they don't seem to have a datasheet anymore.
Are they just usable as a Basic Captain and the Vets as Stern Guard?
Sorry if it's a dumb question It's more to verify so I don't upset anyone trying to run them as such.
So I've been building an army up around the Dark Vengeance box and came up with an idea for a choppy chaos army at 1500pts (Everyone in my group of friends is working on building an army right now and that's what we're aiming for.) My intention is to deep strike termies and raptors right before or after my rhinos disgorge their marines into the enemy ranks with the Heldrake and Predator bothering any MEQs that try to outflank my attack. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
1497/1500
HQ
1x Chaos Lord (120pts); Aura of Dark Glory, Mark of Khrone, Plasma Pistol, Power Sword
Elites:
5x Chaos Terminators (239pts) Mark of Khorne
1x Chaos Terminator Champion; Chainfist, Combi-Melta
3x Chaos Terminators; Power axe, Combi-Melta
1x Chaos Terminator; Power axe, Combi-Melta, Icon of Wrath
5x Chosen (260pts) Mark of Khorne
1x Chosen Champion; Power Maul, Boltgun, Bolt pistol
1x Chosen; 2x Lightning Claws
2x Chosen; Power axe, Boltgun, Bolt pistol
1x Chosen; Powerfist, Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Icon of Wrath
1x Chaos Rino, Combi-bolter, Dirge Caster
Fast Attack:
1x Heldrake (170pts); Baleflamer
5x Chaos Raptors (120pts); Mark of Khorne
1x Chaos Raptor Champion; CCW, Bolt Pistol
3x Chaos Raptors; CCW, Bolt Pistol
1x Chaos Raptor; CCW, Bolt Pistol, Icon of Wrath
5x Chaos Raptors (120pts); Mark of Khorne
1x Chaos Raptor Champion; CCW, Bolt Pistol
3x Chaos Raptors; CCW, Bolt Pistol
1x Chaos Raptor; CCW, Bolt Pistol, Icon of Wrath
Heavy Support:
1x Chaos Predator (95pts) Autocannon, 2x Heavy Bolter Sponsons
Troops:
10x CSM (253); Mark of Khorne
1x CSM Aspiring Champion; Power Sword, Bolt Pistol, Boltgun
8x CSM; CCW, Bolt Pistol, Boltgun
1x CSM; CCW, Bolt Pistol, Boltgun, Icon of Wrath
1x Rhino; Combi-bolter, Dirge Caster
10x Cultists (55pts)
1x Cultist Champion; Autopistol, CCW
8x Chaos Cultists; Autopistol, CCW
1x Chaos Cultist; Heavy flamer, CCW
10x Cultists (65pts)
1x Cultist Champion; Shotgun, CCW
8x Chaos Cultists; Autogun, CCW
1x Chaos Cultist, Heavy Stubber, CCW
>>46119007
the ultramarines series is kind of bad but it's a decent enough segue into 40k
personal recommendations:
Enforcer (trilogy)
Double Eagle
15 Hours
Redemption Corps
Space Marine*
Inquisition War (trilogy)**these books are weird and in some cases fucking terrible
>>46120134
>1 guy can do that
>In a squad of 5
>the other 4 of whom aren't doing shit with stormbolters
>they'll probably never do anything in melee due to being slow as fuck
>>46120183
>Doesn't seem to understand how one dude in 5 not being completely terrible isn't comparable to an entire unit of super maneuverable, versatile units.
and I'm the one who needs to read a rulebook?
>>46120469
to add, now that harlequins are their own codex and you can't easily include just one troupe i don't really feel like using them because instead of being a part of the eldar list they're allies
Anyone here experienced with Clan Raukaan?
I play white scars and I have some leftover stuff I wanted to put to use. I was thinking of doing a detachment of Iron Hands, This is what I was thinking. I wanted to do this without using bikes.
Chaptermaster: Gorgons chain,Thunderhammer, Lightning Claw.
Command Squad: Apothecary, ThunderhammerX4, Storm ShieldX4, Drop Pod
Tactical Squad X5: Melta, Combi Melta, Drop Pod,
Venerable Dreadnought: Multimelta, Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod.
Trying to figure out if the command squad is a mistake. I feel like honor guard would get wiped out before charging. I suppose I could take sternguard instead. Opinions?
>>46120245
>guardsman veteran with plasmagun 21p
>crisis suit with plasma rifle 37p
Well would you look at that! Veteran costs only 56% of crisis suit. You could almost say that crisis suit is double the point value.
>>46120328
Yeah sure, if by "Can't fail" you mean, fails on 8+ on two dice, and you can only issue a single order to a unit in a turn, so I would fire my BS3 (With no way of improving that) teams, miss half and then move D6 inches. All this on a T3 5+ unit. Boy do I feel foolish.
>>46120549
cultists can't get heavy flamers, just regular flamers
>no AT except for one terminator unit
dude you should probably spread the love around a bit
>>46120603
drops pods are among white scars' foremost tools too. i'd put the iron hands into vehicles or make the detachment mostly vehicle. not like it would be unfluffy but i just feel like that kind of detachment would be truly different from the white scars.
the clashing paint schemes would look cool though
>>46120644
Woops, that was a typo on my part. I was hoping that if I just slaughtered the infantry their vehicles might have a tough time taking any objectives. Although I see your point. Maybe a TW Lascannon on the Predator?
>>46120614
You suggesting that my 5+ T3 single wound guardsman is only worth half the points because it can't shoot and run? I'm saying that JUST JSJ should double the worth of a unit, let alone the other benefits it has. Go ahead, bring up Ratlings. I never use the T2 fucks because they're so shit.
>>46120484
He does some nice stuff but it looks like they specified anime space wolves whilst keeping grey Knights etc good art
>>46119931
>terminators that can teleport around like in DoW
>some way of making their storm bolters not garbage
I would be so happy.
>>46119007
I second reading Gaunts Ghosts for "Sharpe in spaaaaaace". Great read that flits from action to character building brilliantly.
>>46120715
you got a couple meltas but more of them would be nice because pretty much only ap1 is reliable opening them cans. sure i get that short ranged melta is unreliable in other ways
>>46120719
I'm saying your ws3, bs4, i3 and plasma s7 is worth half the points.
>>46120715
I have more luck with lascannon sponsons, desu. Sure they aren't twin linked, but you get two of them.
Also giving your raptors or CSM squad some kind of AT would also work. Even if it means dropping the lightning claws and power weapons on your chosen.
>>46120736
Terminators being able to teleport around the board instead of just for deep-striking would be sweet.
>>46120792
Maybe then they'd be worth the points that you pay for them
>>46120792
it would make shit pretty tactical if they could lock onto a friendly unit's beacon of some sort to get where they're needed. and the beacon doesn't need to cost anything. maybe it should be added to all characters or something
>>46120787
>>46120760
So maybe dropping the marks and icon along with the melee whatnot in exchage for making them a dedicated mobile AT unit would work?
I'm not sure you're aware of how fucking stupid you are. In case you're not I'll tell you. You are so fucking stupid.
Please stop trying to "cleverly" explain how homebrewing super-great CC weapons for super-mobile units that already excel at shooting isn't OP, because "lel, there is a possibility you won't roll well and will die if you charge low priority units with better initiative and WS."
>>46120768
It's official, Taufags are unable to see just how good their codex is. I would trade my left bollock to swap my Veterans and your Crisis suits between codices. At least then I wouldn't have to ally in Admech for survivable shooty infantry.
>>46120824
removing marks removes flavor. tough choice m8
>>46120812
>beacon of some sort
teleport homers, yo
Storm bolters being shit is what bothers me, though.
>>46120860
>storm bolters being shit
Storm bolters are great, they're just exactly not what you want on a deepstriking terminator squad. 24" bolters are great on rhinos and such, but you want some sort of close range weapon on terminators.
>>46120851
After crunching the points I should actually be able to setup with four meltas and a combi-melta and have more than enough points left over for the icon and marks.
>>46120860
>>46120926
I'm not sure what could make them more suitable without just giving them more shots though.
Maybe give terminators a special rule with them that gives them Rending on them with 12"? That might be a bit much though.
>>46120849
It's official, you are literally blinded by your rage against imaginary alien race in plastic army man game.
>This should cost twice as much!
It does
>hurr hurr it has more wounds!
But less other stats, including bs and weapon s. You know those things that really matters in shooting unit
>herpa derpa fuggen taufags, amirite fellow imperials???
>>46120824
swap the icons for melta weapons on the raptors
drop the dirge casters on your rhinos, the icon on your squad and the shotgun on the cultists to give your predator lascannon sponsonsalso for real, use those power axes on the chosen as power swords. Striking last with models that expensive? Not worth it
>>46120976
Letting them rapid fire their storm bolters within 12" would be another idea. Basically just brings them up to a tactical squad's level of shooting.
BS/WS5 would be my other improvement. Chaos termis could use it too.
>>46119931
>>46120736
>>46120792
>>46120804
Nah that's too powerful. Let's just put that on Warp Spiders, but also let them teleport multiple times a turn, like whenever they're shot at.
>>46121035
>Letting them rapid fire their storm bolters within 12" would be another idea
just salvo my shit up
>>46121043
As a side note, I really wish Warp Talons could also do the Warp Spider's trick. Might make them more usable.
>>46121066
It seems a little too powerful for warp talons.
teleporting scatterlaser bikes soon, loyal customer
>>46121086
>Eldar Corsairs
>Warpbikes
>Warpknight
>Warping Scorpions
>Warpwraiths
>Warp Serpent
>>46121035
I think Rending would be more helpful overall, since generally you're going to have them up against heavier targets anyway, where more anti-infantry shooting won't help as much.
I think Chaos termies would be better if they could get the same price drop loyalists got. They already have decent guns.
Personally, I would like to see Chaos termies with other heavy or special weapons though.
>>46120995
Vet Squad with 3 plasma is 105pts. Three Suits with plasma rifles are 111. If you don't think those suits will outperform a squad of footslogging vets, you're straight reTAUded.
>>46121111
sounds like crone eldar
>>46121111
>not calling them Warpions
it's shit
>>46121121
eh, I guess either would be good. I find heavier stuff tends to run away from the fists pretty fucking fast, so they usually end up having to deal with hordes of mooks.
>>46121122
What this guy said,you forget that most other races have to take scrub tax with their special weapons guys. Every single Crisis suit in a team is a killer.
>>46121185
Striking Warpions?
>>46121185
Maybe just give them Heavy Bolters instead of Storm Bolters? Better Strength and AP for taking out more elite stuff, and more shots for taking down hordes.
>>46121035
If I lose the dirge casters won't I get gunned down by filthy Tau overwatch?
>>46121249
gw will never change the billions of different terminator models to hold heavy bolters. it's gotta be some kind of double shot special rule or something
>>46121195
>>46121122
Crisis Suits can also be bought as solo models with Objective Secured. That Taufag is a fucking moron. They also have Kroot which are amazing and one of the best, and only actual swiss army knife toolbox useful troops with outflank, infiltrate, sniper option, cheap enough to mass, and get kroot hound to reroll or simply piggy back off the Tau suit system that lets them come in nearby.
And not to mention Fire Warriors aren't even that bad compared to other races' troops. If those new Breachers hadn't been added, Tau could not make the claim that they had shitty troops.
Meanwhile, power armor is literally the WORST troop choice in MEQ armies, worse than scouts and bikes, and the ONLY choice for SoB and GK alongside TEQ.
Never ever talk to a Tau poster on /tg/. They are all 100% shit at the game.
>>46121276
kroot used to be better :(
>>46120849
>I'd trade a staple Tau WAAC unit for a shitty build from a shitty army that no longer sees play or wins
Lol what a fucking moron.
You're like those fags who say T4 3+ is good yet never allies in space marines.
>>46121268
I don't mean to change the models, just say they have Heavy Bolters rather than Storm ones.
Or just call them Terminator Storm bolters and have them be the exact same as Heavy Bolters.
>>46121311
by the emperor how heretical.jpg
>>46121251
If you're playing against tau your rhinos are going to blow up before you get the chance to use them like that. The less you spend on them, the better.
>>46121249
Not happening ever. Storm bolter's too iconic. Terminators need skills to use them in more effective ways, like the old Dire Avengers used to do before they got the faggy Avenger Catapult.
>>46121276
Breachers are actually decent if you compare them to other assault troops. A pair of S 6 AP 3 shots at spitting range, along with a 5+ invuln? There are plenty of assault troops that would love AP 3 and a 5++ save.
Whats the deal with vortex?
If im hit with a vortex and there are still models that didnt die to it am I stuck there because its impassible terrain?
>>46121268
They can make it a free upgrade or something then start producing heavy bolter arms in each new kit. And only put one of them in each box :^)
They do this for new things like grav weapons all the time. How those grav command squads and grav bikes working out for you straight out of the box?
>>46121355
Bloodletters are fucking amazing on paper too and also have AP3 and WS5 and other ridiculous stats for a low low price, but we all know how bad they are on the table. Dunno if Breachers are actually any good.
The same people who said Breachers were terrible when they came out also said the Stormsurge was underwhelming and probably the same morons who said the Riptide and Imperial Knights were too expensive in points when they first came out too.
>>46121338
>Terminators need skills to use them in more effective ways
I know! Terminators with Storm Bolters fire an extra shot, and their Stormbolters gain +1 strength and -1 AP.
Alternatively, what about giving Terminators Special issue ammunition?
>>46121355
I don't think many assault troops would be lining up for thatI2though.
>>46121398
That's sort of what I'm saying. Breachers are bad because they're basically assault troops, but even then they have a lot of advantages, like being able to boost their BS and pile out of a devilfish to fire at things.
As far as assult troops go, they're great. It's just assault troops in general are garbage.
>>46121366
Well, if the models in question are trapped in a corner or something by the vortex then yeah, you're stuck. If not, just go arnound it.
Reading it again however you might be saying that there are units UNDER the vortex bubble. If that's the case, they're deader than dead, nothing survives being hit by vortex.
>>46121402
Except the I2 only matters if you actually charge. This is more akin to an I 11 attack with no reprisal whatsoever.
>>46121399
>what about giving Terminators Special issue ammunition?
nah, leave that for sternguard/deathwatch
I dunno. I kinda doubt GW's ever going to change that godamn storm bolter.
>>46121399
Sure, but have their own special issue ammo instead of the sternguards. Something like:
>S:1 Haywire
>S:4 AP:5 rending and shred
Any more ideas?
>>46121402
Orks
>>46121454
Doesn't that just make them a shooting unit?
>>46121486
>melee race
>>46121502
That's why I said they were akin to an assault unit. They're a unit that will utterly ruin your day if you let them get within 5 inches, which is basically what assault units are.
>>46120736
Give them a once-per-game 24" shunt move a la GK Personal Teleporters and give Terminators a rule where they fire ranged weapons twice.
I really wish Terminators were good :( well, I wouldn't mind them being shit if I could find any decent Honour Guard models, but all I've come up with is Palatine Blades with Ultramarines insignia which isn't ideal.
>>46121455
Not changing the Imperial weapon base stats like assault cannons and storm bolters and heavy bolters and also not lowering the points universally making BS3 WS3 guardsmen buy 25 point Power Fists and 20 point lascannons is largely why the imbalance is so terrible.
Xenos don't have such univeral standards so each update they get buffed you see massive weapon buffs and point drops. Meanwhile Imperial stuff is still priced like 3E.
This is why people don't even take anything other than grav and autocannons. Why pay 15 points for a missile launcher? The only time they're taken is when it's free on a vehicle.
>>46121526
They're worse though since they can't sweep or tie things up in assault. I'd rather get shot at by breachers than charged by AP3 S6 that hits on 2+ (which isn't possible outside of Kharn or whatever unlike markerlights BS5).
>>46121442
I meant the latter.
Say a model survives UNDER it, is it stuck until it moves.
>>46117114
How about making a signature system or support system that combos with it at the cost of survivability to the suit. So, players are given a choice of having FnP, 4++, or WS4 and I4.
Call it the Fire Caste Array or the Close Quarters System Suite. Something cool. All it does is buff their I and WS as an AI assists in their close quarters abilities utilising data and holovids taken from the front lines of O'Shovah and of their enemies (Space Marines, Orks, Tyranids, etc,.).
Can make a Relic version that gives Preferred Enemy and Zealot or something at the cost of BS.
Fusion Blades at 25pts seems doable. Though 30pts is better. It already has Blind, with your suits having immunity to it. Power Outage is fluffy and fun. Get your shooting out of it before committing to melee.
>
>>46121122
>this bad unit is worse than this good unit
Good to know, anon.
I can totally understand why people say Guard are shit when there's this prevailing impression that Veterans are somehow a good unit and that Chimeras are ever anything but useless pieces of shit.
How would you guys make Power Armor Grey Knights worth taking? Really having a hard time justifying any of them except Purifiers.
>>46121554
M8, a model CAN'T survive under it.
Unless some new units have come out with new bullshit rules, a vortex is a straight removed from table deal. No roll to wound no saves of any kind, just dead.
>>46121663
don't be a retard. that's it
>>46121682
That's not how vortex works in 7th, it's just a D hit
>>46121554
You're trapped. Vortex does not say automatically remove models under it if they survive, and impassible terrain does not have rules saying anything stuck in it has to die (although deep strike mishaps do show this happening).
Jump and skimmer units can land on top of impassible and take a test, but cannot move THROUGH them. You are trapped in a piece of impassible terrain. There is also no rule that allows you to "move the nearest distance out of the way" like tank shock so don't bother trying.
>>46121532
wish they'd release sweeping FAQs to fix all the garbage imperial weapons and points costs when they update one of the books
But seriously, why the fuck did they up costs on the power weapons and fists for the guard. The 5th book had them at 10/15. Now they're back to 15/25.
>>46121585
Are you dumb or something? He's literally talking to a Tau playing retard who probably mains Tau and hasn't played any other race who is claiming Veterans are much better than XV8 and would gladly have the units swapped between codexes.
How many veterans and MT are seeing tournament tops? 0. Tournament play? Still 0.
How many XV8 are seeing tournament tops? Yeah. Sit the fuck down.
>>46121585
The whole conversation was about how Crisis suits weren't OP because their plasma costs double our plasma, completely disregarding the actual cost of fielding the whole unit and the general effectiveness of both units. No-one but Tau-fag were sticking up for the Veterans. They're pretty shitty.
>>46121663
Well first you'd spam-
>except Purifiers
Welp.
>>46121583
>>46121721
U fukken wat?
Welp, doesn't change much for me as I never see let alone use anything with vortexVortex deathstrike sounded pretty funny in apoc tho.
Seems strange that they nerfed the D deletion power then also nerfed vortex.
>>46121732
>The 5th book had them at 10/15. Now they're back to 15/25.
They removed a lot of 5E changes, which coincidentally 5E was the best edition for many armies in terms of rules and gameplay, even if it was dominated by specific armies.
Now Imperials have universal points. A PF is 25 points is 25 points is 25 points in IG or MEQ or whatever. No more 5 point PF 10 point PF 15 point PF.
Which is stupid and nerfs things like IG by a ton. And then they knew how bad VV were so they lowered power weapons to 5 points on them to sell the RG formations and VV boxes.
They should just wake the fuck up and give upgrades for free or 5 points each for any squad that takes multiples of them.
Devastator squads shouldn't be paying 80 points for their heavy weapons. That's more points than the entire squad of 5 costs to begin with. 5E Long Fangs and GH on the other hand had great wargear options and prices.
>>46121844
>Grav cannons 35 points
>costs nearly 3 times as much as the marine carrying it
>one GC model that's not a Centurion will cost 49 points for T4 3+, close to Centurion cost anyway
>>46121885
>T4 3+
T4 3+ W1
Might as well just get T5 2+ W2 Slow and Purposeful and an amp while you're at it. Same reason nobody takes terminators over TWC.
But let's randomly increase TH/SS to 5 points upgrade, then 10 when terminators drop 5.
Does anyone even use the malific psychic powers who isn't running a daemon list?
>>46113267
Ne-sued-EE-eht Ned-yeti.Maybe "Ned-EE-eti".
>>46121885
> Grav Cannon with Grav Amp: 35 points
> One 49 point model can then kill 5 terminators a turn.
> This translates to being able to kill up to 200 points worth of units a turn
Niggers will nigg over anything. First they want to get rid of Segregation, then they want it fucking back, and now they want grav-cannons to cost less? I draw the line at the grav-cannons.
>>46121985
They should never have made grav to begin with. It was supposed to be 30k only just like volkite.
If they were going to port it over they should have made it use the 30k rules where it was a literal gravity weapon and not just a tough-guy beating weapon.
>>46121985
Yeah, Grav Cannons are already really undercosted.
The better solution would be to remove Grav Amps from the infantry versions if you wanted to make them cheaper
>>46122033
Except Grav in 30k sucked huge dicks. Because it was essentially just S3 AP2. At least Volkite had the rule of pure awesome behind it. I'd much rather see Volkite get back into regular 40k than grav.
Who doesn't want to vaporize tyranids with martian death rays?
>>46122046
>>46121985
I feel like GC are well costed since they require relentless yet you can't mount them on bikes and such.
Grav guns are the undercosted ones.
Also why are you using terminators as a metric of points killing when we all know they are fucking worthless pieces of shit that are massively overcosted? Why dont' you add up how many points of grots the GC will kill?
>>46121985
It's a very specialised weapon though. As guard-fag I laugh at grav cannons, Orks probably wonder why Marines are waving shootas at them. It has the weird position of being a weapon that marine players bring to kill other marine players.
>>46121943
You can go balls to the wall with Wyrdvanes with their 10 wound squad. (Even better in the Cadia detachment where they manifest on 2+ and any perils is replaced by a single member being blammed.
>>46122046
Or make amps a bought upgrade.
>>46122046
>>46122123
It might also be better to cut down the number of shots on all Grav weapons.
Like making Grav guns Salvo 1/2 instead, and Grav Cannons 2/3.
That might actually make them worthy of a points change. Maybe boost the range on cannons a bit to compensate so that Grav Devastators can actually sit and shoot with them more effectively.
>>46122100
>ap2
do you shitters even read the rules
it's ap4, but with haywire and makes difficult terrain you mongoloid
>>46122129
I think it's used less for other marines and more for the 2+ save Monstrous creatures that lots of armies like to bring.
It performs very well against anything remotely durable, and you have to get to 5+ hordes before it starts becoming more useless.
Of course, then you just get the crapload of bolters littering your force to take them out, like the boltguns on Gravbikes or the Hurricane bolters on Gravcents
>>46121302
Reading comprehension
>>46122155
Kataphron Salvo 4/6 Heavy Grav cannons are insane, only limited by their BS 3. (They also always count as stationary, so why the fuck they didn't just make a different weapon profile is beyond me)
Ork grav is the best
S1 gun AP 1
S6 gun AP 6
Laughinggrots.jpg
>>46122134
Or make them exclusive to Centurions.
>>46122248
Yeah, Grav guns being salvo I get, since it was a newer weapon class and they wanted to show it off, but it just has way too many shots compared to say, Plasma guns.
You could give any Grav weapon -1 shot at all ranges and it'd still be a solid option.
>>46122155
Since the first salvo hit has such a short range I think 2/3 and 2/4 is fair, provided grav is toned down to begin with. Otherwise plasma is generally just going to be the better option. Right now it's reversed though. Maybe even 2/3 for both gun and cannon with the cannon having a free amp and longer range.
>>46122302
>>46122134
I think being exclusive to Centurions makes the most sense.
They're wearing the cannon on one arm, and the amp on the other. That suggests that the cannon and amp are both on par with a heavy bolter or lascannon in terms of weight.
It'd be reasonable to assume a normal marine couldn't carry both.
>>46122248
It has no amps, so no rerolling.
>>46122257
That's not grav, that's bubble.
The krusha gun is the grav version and it's ap1 Str d6+4
>>46122310
Maybe give Salvo some debuffs like inability to overwatch or initiative test to fire the higher amount. The second one sounds crazy enough to be a GW idea.
>>46122375
First drawback is irrelevant. Nothing survives a dedicated group of grav fire to try to counter-charge.
>>46122336
Honestly, I think Plasma should be the best option.
Remember that plasma still has gets hot. That means it's at a higher risk compared to Grav.
I think 1/2 for the Gun and 2/4 for the cannon is fair, boosting the range on the Cannon to 30" so it works better as a heavy weapon for Devs to sit and shoot with.
>>46122375
Salvo isn't the problem
>>46122310
I hate how Salvo works.
>>46122248
Which can be buffed like crazy by Canticles or Doctrina. BS6 with rerolls of 1 on the first turn salvo? Ouch.
Lit up my Broadside and Suit Commander. Granted we were playing 600pts.
>>46122375
Maybe just make it so overwatching with Salvo weapons always uses the first number, but I don't think overwatching with Grav is the big issue here.
>>46122375
That just gimps non grav salvo weapons, some of which are bad enough as it is
Was looking at starting up a small skitarii force and found out that the Dominus that comes in the starter kit isn't actually a Skitarii unit at all and can only be used as part of a single formation or if I take cult mechanicus. Why would GW set it up that way?
>>46122405
They should let plasma choose to shoot once or twice. So you can shoot twice at 24" but you risk getting hot.
Plasma is literally irrelevant right now, it's not found on much and nobody takes it anyway. It needs a buff or grav needs a nerf (which will just make marines shitty again except for Battle Company who will also get shittier).
Nerfing grav is fine but a lot of other stuff and races needs nerfs too.
>>46122444
Only other salvo weapon I know that infantry use is the sonic blaster.
>>46122422
I kind of like the idea behind salvo. It offers bonuses for being stationary, while still allowing some shorter range firepower while on the move.
I see it as similar to how old school Rapid Fire weapons worked, getting a single shot at shorter range if you moved, and two shots if you stood still.
Changing Salvo to work more like how Rapid Fire used to might actually be a good option.
>>46122478
Scions have the big version of the hotshot but literally nobody takes it.
>>46122460
The assumption is they'll be rolled into a single codex sometime in the future, but nobody know when.
>>46122475
I think Nerfs on shooting are better than buffs. More plasma everywhere is going to make marines worse of in the long run, since they suffer from cheap AP 2 being good.
Definitly would need to give Tau, Eldar, and Crons a few nerfs to match though. Probably mostly stuff like point hikes on some of their power units, or nerfs to some of their dangerous guns.
Salvo? More like shitto.
>>46122422
I don't think Kataphrons are able to use Doctrina outside of a War convo but yeah, with Canticles they can be pretty deadly for a turn.
>>46122534
I'd use it if it didn't look fucking stupid.
Give me an infantry-carried multilaser. I want my opponents to feel Goto's love.
>>46122478
GK have the psycannon
What if we increased all AP values in the game by 1 number? All AP2 becomes AP3. AP1 doesn't exist.AP - becomes AP1
>>46122656
Don't speak the name anon!
He might become angered and give the secrets of multilasers to the Space Homos
>>46122760
Imperial guardsmen are now the single deadliest unit in the game.
>>46122763
I don't care. They're laser chainguns and look absolutely fantastic.
The hotshot volleyball looks fucking retarded and I hate it. Which is a real fucking shame because a laser LMG is exactly what I'd want in tacticool stormtrooper armies.
>>46122760
Makes 2+ saves and vehicles much more survivable.
Now you need Melta to kill terminators and the like.
>>46122847
>giant rotating barrel made up of smaller rotating barrels
Yo dawg
>>46122760
Only if it only applies to ranged weapons. Don't need Powerfists and Monstrous creatures suddenly unable to hurt terminators or blow up tanks.
>>46122899
Fuck MCs.
Actually it's only Tau Smashes that are the problem.
Fuck MCs that should be walkers.
>>46122896
Except they don;t rotate
>>46122922
More I don't want to deal with Terminators that are unable to kill eachother or Carnifexes not being able to eat a tank.
The Riptide Smashing stuff at AP 2 is a really minor thing, and it'd be hurt more by losing the AP 2 on it's Ion Accelerator than retaining AP 2 on its punches.
>>46120736
Just add this line under terminator armour in the marine codices
>Sustained fire: Models wearing terminator armour that are also equipped with storm bolters may fire them twice during every friendly shooting phase and overwatch
