>medieval cities were sprawls of roads going in random directions, looking like overcooked spaghetti in a tornado
When will this meme finally die?
Almost all medieval cities were carefully planed, usually on a square plane. But no, we need to pretend we are so much better and that, teehee, those silly medieval shit farmers were so silly, just look at their silly cities, nothing like our glorious New York.
>>46071080
Is it Krakow ? Very nice mainsquare.
Also, not all medieval cities were "carefully planed", but the limited developments were (this part of the city, this other one, etc). The problems come when planification don't exactly align with the previous "spirit" of the plans.
>>46071080
No they weren't, because most of the time cities started as farming villages arranged however was most convenient for the local residents (who were usually farmers with no concept of infrastructure or traffic engineering). Then someone discovered gold nearby or one of the roads running through the village became a major trade route or something, and people started putting up walls and castles to protect their valuable resources. Except they usually just ended up building their castles and walls wherever was most convenient, with minimal changes to local street layouts or roadways, because it was easier (then and now) to just build around what's already there than sweep the land clear and start from scratch like you're playing SimCity with cheats on.
It is Krakow, nice catch.
And yes, midieval cities were in the whole NOT planned. You don't actually think that the planning you see there is the original from the 11th century, do you?
Save for a few utilities vital to the cities and somme large public buildings, NOTHING in these cities was planned. A good detailed explanation can be found in the redevelopment of London and Paris in the 19th century, when the cities were indeed confusing winding mazes , with transport avenues much too small for modern traffic.
As someone living in Europe, you're utterly full of shit.
Some cities are more organized than others, but that's generally ones that were completely destroyed at some point or another. London is a great example of an utter fucking mess of a city (Which is part of why I love it.)
>>46071080
>Almost all medieval cities were carefully planed, usually on a square plane
Huh, I always thought they were built in a star pattern because that was easier to defend during sieges. Or was that an invention of the Renaissance?
>>46071146
>No they weren't
The majority of cities founded during the medieval period are colonial cities that had the land plots, major and minor roads, the city gates and the other fortifications planned out well before colonists arrived, Anon. They even knew what legal status and what sort of constitution they would have ahead of time as those were oftentimes handed down from already existing cities. That extended to architecture as well. There are strings of cities in Europe that use the same style in roadside fronts.
Yes, they did not use the greek model of city planning, but they weren't trying to build model cities of EQUALITY along the agean coast either. Neither were they trying to recreate the minimal required religious space, like the Romans did in each theirs. Medieval city planning is the result of the specific way they mapped the plots out on the land from available vistas while trying to maximize the use of existing terrain features to improve the city's defence, which is a lot more sensible and reasonable than either the religious roman or the politicized greek way of planning.
>>46071165
It fucking is, from XIII century. They layed the roads like that back then and almost nothing changed.
That's what we call "location". King, noble or some other wealthy figure would decide that he wants a city built, often in a middle of nowhere. He would grant some rights (in Central Europe it would usually be magdeburgian law) and set its shape (usually customary to the law they were using).
It's simply untrue that cities evolved out of villages.
ITT: Errybody asserting shit and not citing any sources
>>46071230
I live in a city founded in a swamp on a floodplain because there was a monastery nearby. I believe you are vastly over-estimating how much planning went into any of this.
>>46071193
Star fort is something that was developed when cannons became powerful enough, so around XVII century.
>>46071264
I don't have to explain shit, it's civil engineering
>>46071267
Sankt Petersburg is a city located on marsh because some asshole decided he needs to flaunt his cock.
Also, the fact that something is a city now doesn't mean it used to be back then.
>>46071258
You're missing a key detail- People who were already there.
London is full of places that were villages or towns that got absorbed as the city borders expanded.
>>46071080
>Almost all medieval cities were carefully planed
Aaaaaaand stopped reading here. Some medieval cities were built from trash, did you know that?
>>46071317
>prefabbed parts salvaged from antique ruins
>trash
This thread is going to places.
>>46071314
Here, London almost a century after the middle ages ended. Also, there were literally less than 10 cities in Europe of that size at the time.
>carefully planed
>>46071080
whats weird is I remember several bait threads made by eurotards who claimed the random nature of their city layouts was more "natural" and beautiful than the orderless, super efficient suburbs of america. is your thread some kind of backlash?
>>46071349
Also, so we won't be so eurocentric. Kyoto, founded in 8th century.
>>46071352
Yeah, it's page 40.
OP, if you're trying to sound smart, at least cite your sources.
>>46071359
Eurofag here. I know it's less efficient, but I honestly prefer chaotic cities. But I'm aware it's 100% personal opinion.
>>46071376
honestly it beats me m8, I dont live in the city
>>46071376
>>46071359
And then we have Australian cities like Brisbane who can charitably be described as 'Fuck you' when it comes to the concept of planning.
>>46071080
As a builder let me inform you that on a square plane and carefully planned do not have to relate in any way. A baboon can stack rocks straight
>>46071352
Anon, the first rule of the "I sure hope that nobody reads my source"-trick is to not post it right in the thread.
>carefully planed
Medieval Towns: the Archaeology of British Towns in Their European Setting
The book clearly illustrates that most medieval towns (at least in Britain, although the author provides some examples from other countries and regions) were built along the natural boundaries such as rivers and hills, which affected the building of the streets, houses, and landmarks. Of course, if the local lord decided to add some form of defences, they usually encircled the territory of the town (and could be considered "carefully planned"), but the whole "cities were always carefully planned from scratch" argument is wrong, even in relation to big cities like London.
>>46071408
Oh, I know, you amazing modernist urban planners. Districts are dead! Let's build garden cities! Let us choke on all those cars!
Seriously, it's not 70s anymore.
>>46071469
GB might be the exception to the rule here, Anon. The rest of Europe did indeed see hundreds of cities being founded from scratch between the 9th-14th century.
In general, the planned nature of that expansion is so uncontroversial that it even surrived in the Wikipedia article on urban planning.
![CarcassonneCiteMap%20null[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/1nxA0iq.jpg "CarcassonneCiteMap%20null[1].jpg")
>>46071546
There is a difference between "no urban planning" and complete retardation. Of course nobody's gonna pile dead ends and labyrinthic roads for the lulz, or put a store where nobody ever visits, or a warehouse on top of a mountain with no reason. You're gonna follow the existing road layout and elevation curves, ensuring at least some kind of "organic" order.
Pic is the medival city of Carcassone, in France. Not the most rational layout.
>>46071359
On a sidenote, modern and efficient urban planning has some flaws. Most of the european harbors reconstructed after ww2 suffer from strong winds since the highways offers excellent wind corridors compared to the pre-war anachic little streets.
>>46071620
Does it still have all its gates?
>>46071080
>When will this meme finally die?
Not today
>>46071080
*Eastenders theme plays in Polish*
>>46071661
Apparently it's the only way into the fortified part of the city by car. Really fucking cool, actually.
>>46071080
>sprawls of roads going in random directions
Prague old town.
>>46071661
Though given a pretty thorough restoration in the 19th century, Carcassonne is as complete a medieval hilltop town as you're going to find anywhere.
>>46071546
The situation in the UK is partially down to the protracted period of relative peace following the Norman conquest. There also tended to be stronger property rights and greater individual liberty in the UK than in the rest of Europe, which might have led to more ad-hoc building. We have our share of planned towns built at the behest of aristocrats, but they tend to be 18th century or later.
>>46071080
Medieval Europe is a pretty big place, both in terms of time and space.
Some settlements were planned, other grew naturally and expanded over time.
Some started out as grid-square prestige projects but later outgrew any form of centralised control over expansion.
Some began or became an anarchic mess of backstreets and alleys only to be destroyed by war or fire then refounded as neat and orderly cities.
Other were rebuilt exactly as before despite calls for modernisation.
6thC Rome was not 15thC London was not 12thC Novgorod was not 9thC Hedeby and so on. The only way to avoid pointless argument over far too broad a question is to narrow down when and where you are talking about.
>>46071902
you're alright.
>>46071840
>>46071855
It's apparently did used to have multiple gates.
>>46071620
>>46071661
>>46071840
It's also interesting to contrast the older walled part of Carcassonne, with its fairly random arrangement of streets, with the new townbuilt in 1260 or so - suck it, new worlderswhich is on the other side of the river, and set out in a strict grid pattern. The latter was constructed because the castle had a shitload of random settlement around its walls, and this was making it useless as a fortress, so it was cleared out and the population was moved to the new town. It's a kind of concrete demonstration of the two opposing forces in urban development of organic growth versus top-down planning.
How to go from this...
>>46071476
what are you talking about
>>46071915
It still does, though you can only fit a car through one of them.
>>46071902
This is very true. I think it's hard for Americans to conceive of the idea that there are cities in Europe with histories dating back thousands of years. Pretty much every town in the US retains its original layout.
>>46071146
>like you're playing SimCity with cheats on
S-someday I'll get 500,000 people without cheating
>>46071947
to this
>>46071962
>>46071947
The Huns ruined everything, as usual. Everything that comes out of the east is terrible.
>>46071956
I wonder how many of my city's streets still follow the original layout. The area has been since the neolithic and the city already existed when the Caesar invaded, apparently.
>>46071902
Thank you so much.
>>46071956
Not even that, vagueness not only means that honest men will accidentally go for each others throats because of unspoken caveats as to where/when exactly a statement applies but it also is the natural habitat of the know-nothing shitposter desperate to opine on how all medieval cities clearly worked.
>>46071962
another map from the same time
>>46071962
Asymmetrical layouts are easier to defend against from invaders.
>>46072021
So, leaving aside that many grid-based cities started out that way for military reasons, you're saying that someone deliberately planned that arrangement of streets?
>>46071947
>constructed by luddite headhunters
>>46071962
>constructed by reasonable people in the age of reason based on parameters set by the sciences and on a level of technology above and beyond anything the luddies could even comprehend
>>46072045
>for military reasons
Even the most basic roman city - which was their military camp - was organized along the needs of the public cult, Anon.
Did city layouts in Europe change after WW2 when some towns and cities were flattened by bombings, or did they keep to the same patterns?
>>46072021
But symmetrical layouts with large streets are great for beating down revolutionaries!
See; the renovation of Paris.
Check this
>>46072045
Greek gird-based cities were basically suburb-equivalents in which even the houses were planned to be identical in order to visualize and drive home the alleged equality of all citizens.
>>46072045
Depends on the kind and numbers of invaders.
>>46072081
My city kept the same layout after the Franco-Prussian War, WW1 and WW2. More than half of it was destroyed in each.
This thread lacks star forts.
Pictured; me city
>>46072081
Varied immensely. Some did, some didn't.
>>46072081
A lot of cities were rebuilt along grids, although some followed the pre-war design.
This can be fun where sections of a city suddenly shift from one style to the other because that is the part that got destroyed while two streets away got out unscathed.
>>46072108
You might want to consider living in a city that doesn't have a track record of getting it's shit wrecked.
>>46072132
It was on the way to Paris everytime. ;_;
And then on the way to Berlin.
>>46072113
>>46072180
Nice.
>>46072212
Can't you read? It's Valenciennes, not Nice.:^)
Another close by. They still have a few bits of walls, it's pretty. Valenciennes only has a tower left IIRC.
>>46072070
>>46072094
>>46072096
Missing the point, I know that there are a lot of varied reasons why the grid has been used in city planning, defence among them. >>46072021 implied that the city in >>46071962 and >>46072014 was deliberately planned in that way in order to make it easier to defend. I would argue that the reason for the arrangement of streets in Cologne has more to do with the collapse of the structures of the roman town, and the creation of new routes around and between surviving buildings and new ones, joining various important locations in the town together. The deliberate piece of defensive design is the later wall which encircles the city, not the organic road layout.
![c0cbf5d23f56b376a70e7d1568bb24d4[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/BcCRbEf.jpg "c0cbf5d23f56b376a70e7d1568bb24d4[1].jpg")
>>46071947
>Cologne
History truly does repeat itself
>Don't be such a xenophobe, these poor Germanics are just trying to escape persecution by the Huns! They're not barbarians, they're trying to get away from the barbarians! They'll also help us with our decreasigng birth rates and do the work we don't want to do ourselves
>#NotAllGermanics
>#Pray4Goths
>#RefugeesWelcome
>>46072158
Yeah, being between those is going to get your shit smashed.
>>46072081
As others have said, varies immensely.
I recall when reading about the great fire of london (1666), while it destroyed about of 70'000 homes (of 80'000 in the city) there were only 6 reported deaths.
When they were looking to rebuild it, you had architects with all these grand plans for a city built on modern lines, with a neat grid or spokes and shit, with wide streets. Except the owners of all the property were still all alive, were unwilling sell/too expensive to buy off, so it was rebuilt with an almost identical street pattern.
>>46072272
>>46072282
>>46072088
Rome and Constantinople are interesting because at their peak they had over a million people, with the walls and infrastructure to handle such a huge population. In their times, they were the greatest cities on Earth.
However as their respective empires dwindled, the populations plummeted. When Constantinople fell in 1453 just 50,000 people lived there. 50k, in a space that was built for the best part of a million souls.
It must have been quite something to see entire neighbourhoods within what in any other city of the time would have been the claustrophobic confines of the walls be deserted and lie in ruins. And yet still rank as a respectable metropolis with a population of tens of thousands.
In many ways early medieval Rome was the Detroit of it's day.
Have you been in a surviving medieval city OP? There are random alleys all over the god damn place and almost no straight roads.
>>46072088
this map is fucking retarded, everything is in the right direction but wrong location- like the artist warped the city to fit the rectangle canvas
>>46072282
Shame that they quit doing that on modern bridges.
>>46072021
And yet Valletta, a city designed for the express purpose of being a fortified capital that would be impervious to Turkish attack was designed as an almost perfect grid layout.
>>46072088
>all those walled ruins
How horrible. Just imagine living amongst the remnants of the glorious past, gone for so long. Dreary.
>>46072255
In reality it was more like:
>LOOK AT THESE IDIOTS DROWNING AND STARVING
>GO CALL YOUR BROTHER THIS IS THE MOST HILARIOUS SHIT. LET'S KICK SOME OF THEM WHILE WE`RE AT IT AND YOU THROW SOME STONES AT THAT ONE OVER THERE!
But do keep on projecting.
>>46072429
>building stuff on wet ground
>especially heavy stuff
>in the middle of a goddamn river
Are you ok anon
>>46071080
>EVERYTHING ONE KIND!
>EVERYTHING THE SAME!
>NEVER SOMETHING DIFFERENT!
>>46072439
Valetta in that image was built from scratches across a ruin during the early modern period in the region most heavily influenced by Renaissance ideas while Colonge was an updated wall around a medieval city in Germany.
Comparing them's wildly missleading.
>>46072479
Multiple rivers run under London and all of Berlin and large parts of Rome were built in a swamp, so I really don't see what you're getting at.
>>46072313
At it's lowest ebb Rome hit an even lower population. I seem to remember it being under 10000, but I can't think up a source for you now. Of course, at the time that it was a city of a million or more, Rome was reliant on the harvests of half the Mediterranean. As the empire collapsed the city couldn't feed itself.
>>46072479
My city has a tower literally built over a river.
>>46072533
It was built to resist invasion, if what he said was true it would not be a grid.
And it was built on empty ground, there was not anything on the Sciberras peninsula other than Fort St Elmo at the very end.
>>46072468
>LOOK AT THESE IDIOTS DROWNING AND STARVING
Yeah, I'm sure that was totally the Roman attitude when the Romans allowed Franks and other tribes to settle in their lands, had entire centurii of Germanic soldiers led by Germanic centurions who adressed their troops in Germanic and had powerful Germanic emperors (like Stilicho and Odoacer) who used the Roman Emperors as puppets for their own policies.
Face it, rapefugees ended the West Roman Empire, and they will end the realms built out of its carcass.
>>46072648
There's you being sure and there are actual period documents from the migration period that describe people mocking and jeering at the migrating tribes. Plenty of the names we got for the various tribes on the move back then are in fact derogatory names given to them by the people who actively mocked their plight.
>>46071106
Descartes talked about this exact thing
>>46072595
What's inside their walls was probably built five hundred years appart from each other on the basis of very different city- and fortification planning theories.
Whoever plotted Cologne's streets didn't believe in the grid as concept and prolly much didn't have the physical and mathematical tools or the manpower to plan out a grid.
>>46072648
>imblying Rome fell because of the barbaric people they accepted and not because their whole economy collapsed when there was nothing interesting left to conquer - and their nobles accumulated too much wealth and power because of virtually no taxes on them.
>>46073800
>didn't have tools to plan out a grid
I
Seriously
Like, neolithic settlements were built using grids.
People did know the power of a string back then. That's exactly the kind of shit OP talks about.
Cologne was, most probably, just a mess of land ownership that made it impossible to squish into any urban concept.
![Lyon-et-ses-Traboules-a18290177[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/s20RS9G.jpg "Lyon-et-ses-Traboules-a18290177[1].jpg")
Slightly OOC, Lyon (France) has the "Traboules", a network of inner passageways and courtyards still existing to this day (the old town and its stairs are totally worth a visit,btw). They were used for quick travel across the city by workers carrying silk. It's quite magical, and make for great urban adventures when trasnposed in a medieval setting.
Pic related.
>>46072021
Neuf-Brisach and Vauban would like to have a word with you.
>>46074464
They were used for quick travel by everyone.
The silk workers mostly used it to dodge rain.
>>46072282
It's cool and all, but look how narrow the gaps between the supports of that bridge are. The Thames is a pretty big river, and still tidal in London, getting a boat through there must have been terrifying.
>>46072021
If they are already in the walls the battle has been lost and your just fighting to die standing at that point.
>>46071258
What's the point of that semi-river? Easier access to water in the surrounding farmlands?
>>46071080
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGbPShUpjpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9K7Yds8bWz4
>>46071376
>but I honestly prefer chaotic cities
Come visit Houston sometime, maybe we'll change your mind on that.
>>46071271
>Using Roman numerals
You are the most pretentious cunt I have ever seen
>>46072094
No, that is wrong. Such a thing would only matter in Athens, and its greater state in the fifth century. Not every Greek city state was a democracy that promoted such a value of equality of citizens. Most Greek cities were Oligarchic.
>>46071230
i don' know where you took your info about the romans, but they did much more than plan religious space. In Itlay, where I live, the majority of modern-day cities developed from roman war camps, which where a marvel of sensible planning and reasonable developement (look it up).
As a result, most of the cities here have a clear "anatomy", consisting in four main streets starting from a center square, whith minor roads being perpendicular to the four main streets. The land itself was precicsly divided into regular squares (a procedure called centuriation), and you can still see traces of these divisions in the Po valley from google maps.
>>46071902
This.
>>46072429
They stopped doing it because it kept causing bridges to collapse.
>>46079168
>i don' know where you took your info about the romans, but they did much more than plan religious space.
The organization of space within the camps reflected a minimialistic version of the cityspace they required to perform their religious rites is what I'm saying. It wasn't the result of some modernist sense of logical planning but an expression of their religious needs.
>>46078230
Poland does that.
>>46079235
Also it clogs up traffic terribly, when most of the bridge space is property
>>46079501
France too.
Probably a bunch of others too. Only Brits and 'murcans are afraid of roman numerals.
>>46079426
Look, if you have any proof about these religious motives, you should post them, because I have studied a lot of roman history due to my school choices, and I never heard of anything more than a couple of altars inside the camps. When the romans made camp, the priorities were keeping the army secure (through fortifications) and well organized (a logistical necessity that resulted in the square model).
Wikipedia can confirm this. I know, it's lame to quote the wiki, but all my source material is in italian.
>>46071931
>"Strict" grid pattern
>That fucking tangle of diagonals, obtuse angles, and fuckery
You've never seen a fucking grid in your life, have you?
>>46078230
Fuck off, all of non-Germanic Europe traditionally uses Roman numerals for centuries.
>>46079426
>>46079642
here's the link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castra
>>46077907
It's strange how little Americans trust their government, when they live in goddamn Mechanus.
>>46071376
Completely agree. Same goes for towns and villages. Chaotic 'organic' towns and cities feel like places you can actually walk around and explore as opposed to an endless grid where all you do is walk in straight lines down straight roads, maybe turning two or three corners. It just seems so fucking lifeless and depressing.
Not that some urban planning isn't good, like in OP's pic which looks fine, but lazy shit like pic related genuinely terrifies me.
>>46079957
Looks like horror pics, really.
>>46079642
I'm honestly not surprised that you haven't heard the slightest about it, because roman cult isn't something that's ever brought up outside of academic literature.
>>46079878
We have firsthand experience.
>>46079957
>>46080000
>>46079878
>It's strange how little Americans trust their government,
Not to get too deep into it, but that's because we have a bad history with centralized authority overstepping its bounds and the fact that said centralized authority isn't capable of protecting or dealing with problems on our frontiers and our really low-density states, which is why we have the concept of Federalism to break up authority into much more manageable chunks that are better able to leverage resources how a given population wants them to, while also reducing the risk of a single authoritarian figure or collective from dominating another region and forcing it to bow to its whims (which we especially had a problem with here in Texas with Santa Ana).
That said, Houston has no zoning laws whatsoever. It has its pros and cons, but it takes some major getting used to.
>>46080025
I'm not saying that romans did not care about religion. What I am saying is that it was not a big concern when making a war camp, and I'm still waiting for proof on the contrary.
What's the most efficient regular tessellation to plan a city around? Triangles, squares, or hexagons?
What advantages would a city built using hexagonal blocks have over one built using square blocks; assume that the borders between hexes are minor roads, and major roads run through the centers of hexes.
>>46080000
Literally where in Houston is that, because grids literally don't exist outside of Downtown, which is all skyscrapers, or suburbs, which are thrown randomly across the area.
>>46071080
>talks about medieval cities
>posts one with 18th and 19th buildings and planning
Bro just shut the fuck up.
>>46080288
I read that most of the things in that pic have been demolished/rebuilt, probably doesn't show the grid as much anymore.
>>46080339
Yeah, because I've been all over Houston my entire life, and I've never seen that, like, ever.
Our city is designed around automobiles, though, so things are much larger and parking is a very common feature in most places. That, though, was ridiculous.
>>46080281
I do not see any benefit in anything other than square. Most houses and buildings are square aniway, so let's just stick with that, I guess.
>Not organising cities around monuments (and building new ones if necessary), parks, and squares using a mix of large avenues and dense city blocks.
>>46080403
being airbombed and rebuilding from zero is cheating, anon.
>>46071258
>King, noble or some other wealthy figure would decide that he wants a city built, often in a middle of nowhere.
Lolwut
No they didn't you fucking clown. People built cities around shit that they valued, be it material resources, trade routes, or sites of religious importance. If there's nothing on a plot of land worth spending money defending, then you don't build a fucking city to defend it.
>>46080403
Have you ever navigated Paris or Rome? It's fucking mental
>>46080431
>Airbombed
There are other ways of cheating anon.
(They did keep most buildings that fitted with the new grid intact though)
>>46080403
>having to demolish huge chunks of your city to expand the roads because it was too claustrophobic
Paris has never been "organized"
>>46080461
Calm your tits and check Madrid, a city built in the middle of nowhere simply because the king wanted a central position for his brand new capital.
lrn2history
>>46071080
See Valparaiso, Chile.
>>46080466
>Using a car in Paris
Public transports and walking are extremely efficient and fast ways of moving around in Paris until you reach the modern suburbs which are the real car and transportation nightmare.
>>46080503
Mejor idea. No.It's way prettier on photos
>>46080489
Well the fact of demolishing huge chunks of the city to build new avenues and roads de facto organizes it.
>>46079804
Nigger, are you retarded? This is more American retardation, where you assume that every road in a city was laid out by some kind of municipal authority in the last fifty years or so. That map dates from a good deal later than 1260; the grid arrangement is mainly in the map squares C2 and C3, the diagonal roads around the periphery are later additions.
>>46072465
free stones for construct your house!
>>46080400
It's actually not that hard to pack squares into hexagons, plus it also leaves open room for interesting building designs.
Personally, hexagons would break up the drudgery and uniformity of a grid based city-plan (you're going to be turning every now and again unless you're on a major road), while still maintaining regularity and scalability.
>>46072282
But, is it gonna fall?
>>46080491
That was in the early renaissance period though
>>46080403
Haussmann please go
>>46080813
I don't think so Mr Ferry, now take your pamphlet and stick it up your Republican backside.
>>46080756
Gonna? It did.
>>46080461
Maybe in your version of history. Or in some backwater country like England.
Are you seriously implying that common people had enough wealth to build cities? This way you might have seen a village built, but even those were rather rare and happened with fiscal encouragement from the crown.
>>46072494
>I RELY ON AN ASSORTMENT OF EXTERNAL STIMULI TO BE HAPPY! EVERYTHING MUST BE DIFFERENT!
Truly pathetic. Having a bridge building is "near" and all but unnecessary. So is relying on non straight streets for happiness. You're truly all bored losers.
>>46081373
>building cities around valuable things
>common people had enough wealth
>backwater
Yet somehow not having enough capital to build a handful of houses without royal intervention is civilized?
Either way, I believe that anon's point was that most cities had a reason for being – even St. Petersburg, which was brought up before as an example of a "nowhere" settlement, was built on a strategic resource, a port. Not only that, but it was built on the site of the Nyenskans fortress, with a town of several thousands.
Very rarely were settlements built in a location for no particular reason. Your assertion that most cities did not grow out of villages, instead being founded as large-scale settlements, is simply untrue (even in the case of St. Petersburg, though the growth wasn't exactly natural). Look at any major city in the world and give an example of one that started out, immediately, as a full-scale city. There aren't many. This is even more true in Europe, where many cities were towns and villages long before they even entered written history – because they were invariably founded in a location with intrinsic value.
>>46071080
Blame the Dutch. The Dutch built old quarter of New York is absolutely a maze
>>46080000
Retarded americans building skyscrapers in a town which consists of only parking lots. That's not what the point of skyscrapers is. Must be an ego thing.
>>46080288
>>46080370
lol idiot
Google maps.
How do you not even know the city you live in?
>straight from home to work, work to home
>use car all day every day every time your fat ass leaves the house
>live your entire life without even knowing how the world looks like behind the corner of your own fucking house
>americans
>>46081373
>some sort of "fiscal policies subsidies" were required of the king for villages and cities to be built
What the actual fuck am I reading. Are you for real? You don't have the slightest fucking clue as to how and more importantly WHY cities spawn and develop, now do you?
>Meanwhile, in this US
These streets are much better aligned when you see them in person. You would need to make a little hitch driving straight through 10th if it wasn't for the roadblock, but Adams is straight through.
>>46082761
Forgot my picture.
>>46083394
And then responded to the wrong post. Fuck.
>>46082501
I'm looking at between 4 and 6 high volume public buildings and spaces within a 6 block radius. You're goddamn right the rest is parking. I've never even been to Houston, but I don't need to in order to understand how dense urban cities work in areas of high individual vehicle ownership. Christ, you're dense or intentionally obtuse.
>>46080748
They'd also require a fuck huge amount of traffic lights and stop signs.
>>46083576
Parking structures are often underutilized.
>>46071368
>kyoto in 8th century is better planed than London in 1593
BASED JAPS
A
S
E
D
J
A
P
S
>>46071146
Now, some things will remain.
Houses will for instance be built into each other, BUT the size of roads will vary by era.
And central planning will vary.
The good cities they at the least made plans on where stuff was suppose to go if the city expanded.
The bad cities just allows slums to be built, and then its shit.
>>46071368
>eurocentric
wew
>>46071080
If you want a place where medieval towns were planned in squares? You want newly founded medieval towns, places like the Bastides of southern France. Or some of the new towns founded during the height of the pre-black death population boom.
But fuck, no, a 2000 years old city is not fucking planned in the long run. Even the old cities of the americas (esp. Mexico City, Philly, Boston, NYC, Quebec city, Montreal) would look like total messes without heavy duty rework of their street grid in the 19th and 20th centuries.
>>46071271
16th. The upgrades bankrupted numerous italian cities, but they started a building spree when the old walls of Pisa literally lasted a few hours against the french army.
>>46071349
>Medieval London
>relevant
France alone had at least 4 cities bigger than London. It was a shithole with less than 100.000 inhabitants, which there were probably 20 or so combined in the Low Countries and Italy once the middle ages were over.
>>46071395
The best part about Brisbane is that no one really planned it. It just sort of happened.
>that one britfag in here adamantly defending european construction and pitifully trying to bash the americans every chance he can get
We get it, you're salty that you lost the war and have fallen increasingly out of relevance to the point of being a second-world country. Get over it.
>>46080122
The only reason Texas seceded was because they were basically illegals who decided the land was america now and refused to recognize the mexican abolition of slavery.
There is no great fight against tyranny. The slaveowners of Yucatan tried the same shit and basically begged Mexico city to take them back when their maya slaves rose up and decided to form their own native government, something that would have happened with Texas the moment they got their shit kicked in by the Comanche had the US not been around to save their sorry asses.
>>46084811
It's such a cluster fuck to get around here in Brisbane, but it does make for some nice walks when we've got parks every 5 meters no semblance of logical road design
>>46084940
>second-world country
Pretty sure the UK has never been Communist.
>>46084940
>that one american who has to confront how much of a shithole his country actually is and decides to lash out against brits for some reason because no other country would ever say anything against America.
Aaaaaand another thread ruined by a butthurt American!
>>46085584
I am not even an american, that was abundantly clear in my post.
>>46071080
The oldest portions of cities that were founded in antiquity are often the parts that are most maze-like because oftentimes cities started as smaller settlements, and, as they grew in size, sophistication, and importance, the cities implemented more organized plans for newer districts. The inhabitants left the older portions as they were often because those parts were the site of important buildings that were important to keep intact, even if newer portions were planned meticulously.
Many medieval cities maintained the original, gridlike plan used when the cities were established by the Romans, who had developed sophisticated planning before establishing the cities.
Newer (i.e., medieval) portions of the cities and cities that were not established as Roman cities (or Roman forts that grew into cities) often were poorly planned or not planned at all.
>>46071080
Excellent thread, have you informed >>>/his/?
bumpo
>>46083576
Are you an idiot? One 5 story parking building with 1-2 underground levels would rid you of 6-7 of those ugly parking lots at the cost of one.
This time I'm gonna spell it out for you: you don't build sky scrapers into a city that consists of fucking parking lots. The whole point of skyscrapers is if the city is dense enough you start building UPwards instead of sideways. You could literally spread those skyscrapers over the downtown and you wouldn't even reach 5 floors. Americans are just terrified of low profile cities because they need something big and tall to tell them how mighty they are so that they could get their powerboner.
Only in America will you see a city which is 80% suburbs, 15% parking lots and 5% skyscrapers. Geniuses.
>>46071080Is that what being baited feels like?
>>46071080
>Almost all medieval cities were carefully planed, usually on a square plane. But no, we need to pretend we are so much better and that, teehee, those silly medieval shit farmers were so silly, just look at their silly cities, nothing like our glorious New York.
Papist buttmad his cult held up the world for centuries detected.
>>46080813
>>46080901
>3rd Republic banter
Awww yiss.
>but, Anon, people back then didn't know how to build a square!
>>46080281
Chaos star
>>46084537
more like
A U T I S M
U
T
I
S
M
![246001403_7SSS[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/UnkFhxG.jpg "246001403_7SSS[1].jpg")
>>46090996
I feel the Warp overtaking me !eight points if you ignore the ravelins
>>46085274
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_World
>>46084764
what the fuck is "France"?
I would say medieval cities as a rule were unplanned and grew around ports, markets, mines, military stop-offs etc where there was sea access and a river.
