So what does /tg/ think of this, both as a story and a setting?
>>45989219
Way too heavy handed with Christian metaphors to stand up on it's own.
It's alright I guess, as a product of it's time.
Give Jadis a better chance and since she's supposed to be Satan, elevate her as the Tolkenian Melkor of the setting.
>I'll be back
Alternatively, make her a proper Snow Queen.
>every winter ever is Jadis time
>>45989241
The first couple were okay despite the allegory, but it got more obvious-- and therefore obnoxious-- fast. I never managed to finish the series.
>>45989538
They basically go to heaven in the end because Narnia ends.
Or, they go to a higher world which is closer to heaven. Not sure. Weird as balls.
Don't blame you for losing interest.
Prince Caspian>The Voyage of the Dawn Treader>The Horse and His Boy>The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe>>>The Silver Chair>>>>>The Magician's Nephew>>>>>>>>>>The Last Battle.
>>45989638
I didn't much care for Caspian but the rest of it is good.
Dawn Treader 4 lyfe.
>>45989612
The end of the last battle only makes sense if you understand Lewis's theology. Reading The Great Divorce makes it a lot clearer. Not that you should read it, unless you're really into Christian apologetics.
>>45989658
Looking back, I can see your point. It's still one of my favorites though. Move it behind Horse.
>>45989219
Most of the books are "eh", but "The Last Battle" is one of my favorite books of all time.
>>45989612
You're giving me flashbacks, anon. I still remember my reaction to that. It was one of the only times I have ever uttered a flat "what."
Seriously,Aslan comes in and is like, "Oh, by the way, y'all got killed in a train wreck. Your mangled corpses flew at LEAST a hundred yards. So sorry, let's go climb clouds and shit."And that's... it. Talk about going out with a whimper.
>>45989776
Go to better Narnia>Living in 50's England
>>45989773
How? All that book did was annoy me.
>>45989241
Not surprising, considering CS had apologetically re-converted to Christianity.
>>45989900
IDK, I was very young, and it kind of helped push me away from an unfulfilling and frustrating Evangelical belief in the Bible to the "Christian Agnosticism" where I now stand.
>>45990229
I guess that works.
>>45993791
W-what is this? Jesus sci-fi?
>>45995576
Kinda. Other terrestrial planets in the solar system are inhabited, and the rules work differently for the races that live there based on the way the planet was designed and the way it has changed since it was designed. For example, Mars is a utopia because the Devil of Mars never pulled a Lucifer, being content to govern the planet with wisdom and justice. But Mars as depicted in the series is a very old planet, and it's undergoing a painless, peaceful apocalypse rather Earth's prophesied violent one.
It's got some really interesting worldbuilding. You can find its references to from Biblical myth and cosmology if you look, but it's all with a very old-school science fiction tone with surreal, almost psychedelic imagery throughout. Sometimes it felt like I was reading a Yes album. It's a lot more creative than Narnia; I think. The only thing it has in common with Narnia is a Christian theological basis and furries.
The series was written quite a while before Narnia -- this was after Lewis became Christian, but before he got married and had kids, so you can really tell the differences in his ideology from between then and writing Narnia. It's speculative and philosophical in a way that Narnia isn't, possibly because it's not written for kids. It's also thick with the culture of British academia in a way that Narnia isn't. Very inkling-y.
Comparing and contrasting this series Tolkien's stuff could be the subject of a gazillion dissertations if /tg/ were a university.
>>45996957
I can second this. I read the Space trilogy expecting it to be less churchy. I think it's still very heavy on the Christian overtones, but it plays around more with the ideas, whereas Narnia just sort of mirrors biblical stories. Book Two was more heavy handed than the first and third.
>>45996957
Lewis and Tolkiien were longtime friends, and their work rubbed off on each other.
Example: Treebeard is based on Lewis and his booming voice.
>>45997668
Book Two is interesting because you're all like "Gee, this story seems familiar" but then it throws you for a loop and flips the story on its head. I think its blatant, obvious imagery works in its favor there -- it makes it all the more jolting when the book suddenly goes off script.
>>45997730
Yeah, and there's a lot of slightly Tolkien-y stuff in the Space Trilogy. That's why I said it was inkling-y. The first book in particular shows an interesting perspective on the concept of multiple sapient races that's very different from the one you see in Tolkien.
>As a story
Bible-man tier, no subtly at all
The wild mixing of mythologies is atrocious, fucking santa claus and elves rubbing elbows with satyrs and dryads
Hastily written
Highly childish (and not in the good way)
Shallow protestant themes
Disgusting plot devices like "le magical alternate world accessed by a shitty dream/wardrobe/rabbithole"
>setting?
Pretty fun actually, loads of trippy and nonsensical DnD style celtic adventure everywhere
>>45997946
Go to bed, Pullman.
How much of the hate is because people think its actually poorly written and how much is a fedora circle jerk?
Personally I think it would be a pretty kick ass setting. Talking animals, Bacchus, Santa Claus, Lion Jesus, runaway muslim princesses, kid heroes-it has a lot of potential for fun.
It gets even better if you take the Magician's Nephew stuff and expand on it. You run into different worlds with slightly different biblical parallels, sort of like his Sci-Fi stuff.
>>45998695
I'm catholic and despised Narnia for a number of reasons
Even atheists can enjoy religious influenced literature without believing in it, Narnia just slaps you over the face with JesusLion
That said, Narnia is way more adventure friendly than Middle-Earth. And Aravis was my waifu before I even knew what my peepee was for.
I like it as a story, despite the occasionally cringe worthy evangelizing, racism, and equating atheists with the literal devil. It has an interesting kind of charm that's hard to come by. The rules are clearly defined enough that every thing is functional, but it's still a place of magic and wonder, were just believing in your inner child can sometimes take you to Wonderland, but it's always when something cool and existing is happening.
As a setting, I'm not sure. Magic is generally only practiced by "evil" people, except poorly defined gifts from Lion Jesus, so your party would probably be caster free. There's just about every monster under the sun around, so you can use what ever, and way underground and across, it's implied there's even stranger things. Lion Jesus would probably be the one giving you your quest, so he could give so magic shit, or intervene at certain points.
I'd say you're better off doing your own setting that's just highly influenced by Narnia, rather than Narnia itself. that way you can avoid all the uncomfortable "Muslims are worshiping a demon" stuff and get to the heart of kids being pulled into a fantastical world for an adventurer part. Maybe have a mysterious being to fill the roll of Aslan, some clearer rules on entering and leaving the world, and you've got a solid campaign.
>>45998009
No, I'm too busy writing clumsy metaphors for prepubescent virginity into every possible paragraph.
>>45998869
>Aravis
Patrician taste anon.
>>45998695
>Personally I think it would be a pretty kick ass setting
Nah
A good setting needs potential for conflicts. There must be monsters to slay, kingdoms to topple or protect, riddles to solve and mysteries to solve.
Narnia has none of that. All the wondrous stuff is tied into the metaplot, you can not have meaningful conflict because why LionJesus not just solving that shit (why the fuck is he not doing that in the books as well?). Basically the Elminster problem. If you really want to play in that world you need to either throw out all the all powerful beings, or accept that the plot will revolve around them (which sucks balls because then you limit the freedom you have to a massive degree).
Just throwing random parts of the setting around does not support the setting being good for adventure.
>>45999056
I'd just assumed you would modify things and use the Calormen or White Witch as baddies.
>Why the fuck does't Lion Jesus solve everything?
His dad's even worse sitting on his ass across the sea.
Chalk it up to theodicy. Lots and lots of apologetic theodicy.
>>45989219
I fucking hate deus ex machina. It cheapens the story. Like, why am I even bothering to read about the trials and tribulations of the main characters, when some god or something is going to come out of left field and fix everything? It's like getting to the fourth quarter of a football game and having guys with lasers come on the field and win the game for one team by zapping the other one... except that that would be awesome.
>>45998923
>Magic is generally only practiced by "evil" people, except poorly defined gifts from Lion Jesus
Who is Cornelius
>>45999056
>the Elminster problem.
The Elminster problem is solved by all the other powerful people sitting around waiting for him to move so they can fuck things up while he's not looking.
>>45999290
If I recall correctly the AD&D deities and demigod book listed this as the reason why the gods rarely get involved outside of using paladin/cleric proxies is because doing so would cause their rival and enemy gods to spring into action and the whole thing becomes a massive cluster fuck.
Basically the setting had a divine cold war with MAD for earth realm if anyone tried shit.
>>45999251
Yeah, there's him, that one guy on Dufflepud island, and the Hermit, but you don't get much cool magic that's used in combat by anyone other than the villains. It's mostly work done around a desk or table, and while I guess it could be viable in a game, you wouldn't be throwing fireballs.
>>45998695
While this thread does seem to have a bit of fedora presence in it, I think that /tg/'s objections to the stories have more to do with its typical setting autistry than anything else. Narnia has lots of things in it that don't make perfect sense, but you're supposed to run with anyway because it's a world of wonder. /tg/ hates that, because it's so antithetical to the tabletop understanding of the function of a setting.
Another big part of it, I can imagine, is people expecting something out of the books that they don't get because the Narnia books just aren't that type of book. Narnia isn't a sword-and-sorcery adventure series, nor is it Lewis's personal mythology and worldbuilding project, nor is it an attempt at meaningfully examining what would happen if all these different mythologies collided, nor is it a children's version of any of the above.
It's a fairy tale. It runs on fairy tale logic and fairy tale philosophy. The fairy tale philosophy is just as pervasive throughout the series as the Christian theology.
I think /tg/'s distaste for the series has far more to do with the fairy tale philosophy than the Christian theology.
>>46001316
That reminds me. I've always wanted some sort of fairy tale RPG. Something will real wonder and feeling to it. Something that could do a George McDonald story or something like Puss Cat Mew...
>>45999056
>Why the fuck does't Lion Jesus solve everything?
I think they touched on it in Prince Caspian, when Lucy was wondering the same thing, since Aslan's characterization shifted massively after the first book. He said something about things never being the same twice or some bullshit like that. I'm pretty sure it's because all of the other threats in the series are way less powerful and JesusLion would murder them in seconds. Like Miraz and his army were all completely normal humans, same with Rabadash's army. The Lady of the Green Kirtle was supposed to be like the Witch, but she died like a bitch. Also, I think Lewis got more into the Christian thing, so once JesusLion died and did the thing, he took on a much more indirect role.
>>45996957
>Comparing and contrasting this series [and] Tolkien's stuff could be the subject of a gazillion dissertations
Exactly.
Lewis and Tolkien also characterize a pretty classic dichotomy: Tolkien couldn't write anything without first drawing up an extensive backstory and material for it first, but Lewis would just sit down and write.Tolkien hated that.
>>46001414
you'd have to have an absolutely incredible set of players or it'd never work. a lot of the wonderous feeling would also lay in the DM's descriptive ability. you could probably do a wondrous campaign in most non-grimderp settings.although it might be kinda funny to do a narnia type thing, but instead of narnia they end up in 40K
>>46002070
Like a bunch of English schoolchildren stumbling through a closet onto an Imperial planet the middle of an Ork Waaagh that's happening at the same time as the Tyranids attack, and it all goes downhill from there?
>>45989241
I think I hate you, because one of the main things I liked about it was how refreshingly Christian it was, without it being just another retelling of the Bible.
But, as a good Christian, I'll forgive you for being so fedora.
>>46002213
*tips cross*
>>45989219
Eh, early world and books make for both a good book and setting. The later you get, the dumber it is.
>>45989219
I liked it. A little known fact is that Tolkien and Lewis flipped a coin to see who would write fantasy and who would write sci-fi one time. Lewis lost, so he had to write the Prelandria Series. Eventually get got around to doing Narnia to scratch the fantasy itch.
As for Tolkien, who won... Well, we know what he went and did then.
How do we fix Narnia?
My suggestion: a healthy dose of Satanism.
>>45989219
I enjoyed the first film when I was eleven (cringed at "son of Adam" and "daughter of Eve" stuff, but missed everything else to do with Christian themes) and that's about the extent of my familiarity with the franchise. Came here to say how I read a short part of some later book in the series and it was so hilariously racist Lewis might as well have called it "I Hate Shitskins: the Book". Don't let nerds do any writing, I am telling you.
>>46003236
It was more a dig at the Spanish, who at the time were still knee-deep in the Black Legend.
>>46003249
Except those people were obviously meant to be Ottoman Turkish. All those years and I still remember, eh.
> Black Legend
What?
>>46003236
Are you saying having turkroaches be the villains in a fantasy story is somehow a bad thing?
>>46002213
This.
Lewis wrote religious themes and symbolism into his books in a non-cliched manner. He has a lot of interesting philosophical thoughts, oftentimes deep down very redpilled and anti-modern.
>>46003285
I am saying that portraying them in an over the top racist way is ridiculous.
>>45989219
I like it.
>>46003236
>Hating the Calormenes
>>46003311
It wasn't that racist.
What always struck me was that damn, those kids were gonna have some serious fucking trauma when they got back, having to go through puberty twice, suddenly being massively restricted in what they can do when they were literally king shit of fuck mountain in Narnia, their word was law and all that, even if they were kind and just they were still in charge of a huge amount of people with all the trials and tribulations related to that.
I enjoyed the old BBC children's TV series of it. Does not stand up at all to the films but the treatment was still pretty decent in it's own limited way. Thankfully they didn't do the last story though. That was the one where it really went off the rails, the morality and symbolism of it all has aged really horribly. I mean it was pretty cringe-worthy even at the time but now it's kinda just abhorrent.
>>45989219
Too high-fantasy for my tastes.
>>46003332
The horse had pretty much said "I see these savages as WRONG and EVIL and y'all should convert to Christianity and be a part of my empire's domestic market". You're probably European or even Yank and grew up familiar with Christianity and unfamiliar with everything else, but that's not the case with me, so I saw blatant racism for what it is.
>>46003332
It really was that racist. It's like book-version James Bond level bad.
Which is pretty fucking horrifically bad.reminder that we're on 4chan and I'm still holding that opinion
>>46003371
The final Narnia book has the land overrun by middle eastern heathens who are ultimately destroying its culture and trying to conquer it. It's more relevant than ever nowadays, given the state of Merkel's Europe.
>>46003451
This talk about how this or that is "racist" is really getting old.
>>46003480
> d-don't pay attention to "racism", l-lad! better see how we've suffered! begorrah, 'tis like a second potato famine!
>>46003455
You do realise that what you have isn't a reason, but an excuse, right?
>>46003562
I'm talking about the drone-like social justice mentality.
I'd like to be able to discuss fantasy literature in peace without constantly having to hear about how white people are evil and every fantasy world needs diversity(tm)
>>46003604
Uh-huh, and what you seek instead is discussing fantasy literature while constantly gushing about how white people are good and every fantasy world needs to conform to /pol/'s ideas of reality. You can't have your cake and eat it, lad.
>>46003638wew lad
>>46003604
>I'm talking about the drone-like social justice mentality.
I thought you were talking about people who talk and think about racism, which is preferable to the drone-like anti-social justice mentality which consciously refuses to think about things and deliberately shuts down when trigger words like "racism" are mentioned.
>>46003638
>>46003562
Wait I missed something.
Why are the Irish the new Jews?
>>46003839
'Tis a silly joke parodying judophobia, and it by no means is new, too.
>>46003903
>greenpilled
I love it.
>>46003903
>Irish
I enjoyed it when we read it at church school
>>46003981
Do you have the old cartoon of the 4 Irish industries
My Middle School shilled the fuck out of the tLtWatW. Dont know if that has always been done of they were just doing it because it was around the time the shitty Disney movie came out.
Honestly I could never get into it. Thought the setting was too childish and didn't like any of the characters. I read Lotr around the same time instead.
Outside of the first book, the entire series can be summed up by this picture or the Deus Vult ones.
>>45998009
> Not wanting to watch armoured bears fight to the death
> Not following Lord Azrael to as he leads an army from a thousand worlds to destroy Metatron.
> Not having a glorious setting that is a sequel to Miltons Paradise Lost.
Seriously Narnia was okay as a setting, but Pullman blew out of the water, it always surprises me why /tg/ has never really discussed it here as a viable setting, there was so much that would make a seriously bad-ass campaign in those books.
The best bit about it was reading it as a child and loving it for the adventure and then coming back as an adult and understanding the themes of love, loss and sacrifice and the pain and necessity of leaving childhood behind and progressing into adulthood.
>>46003309
Using the word 'redpilled' as an adjective.
Please do us a favour and kill yourself.
>>46004995
>The best bit about it was reading it as a child and loving it for the adventure and then coming back as an adult and understanding the themes of love, loss and sacrifice and the pain and necessity of leaving childhood behind and progressing into adulthood.
Funny, that's what many non-pretentious people say about Narnia.
>>46003638
Sure I can, it's my cake.
>>45989241
Oddly enough: It's NOT a product of it's time.
He was exposing ideas that would not be popular until after Vatican II well before Vatican II. The last book was 3 years before V2: Electric Boogaloo.
The whole Tashlan thing and how the prince was handled there were not common Christian ideas until after V2. As was the entire thing with 'Even if there is no Narnia, I'll still live like a Narnian. Even if there is no Aslan to lead us, I'm on Aslan's side'.
He was talking a lot of ideas that were not mainstream christian and only seem so to us these days because people's ideas have changed.
>>45989638
I respectfully disagree. I'd put Silver Chair and Magician's Nephew much higher.
The imagery about the Deplorable Word and Aslan singing the world into existence was amazing.
>>46004995
It's a really good trilogy. It might not be something everyone will enjoy, but it is full of interesting details and references to classical literature.
And yeah, Azreal was a great character and I'd love to see his battle against the heavenly host, even if it was ultimately futile and meaningless.
>>46005617
> 'Even if there is no Narnia, I'll still live like a Narnian. Even if there is no Aslan to lead us, I'm on Aslan's side'
That's literally "my country, right or wrong", itself a concept older than the first civilisation, just applied to religion. I'll admit that it's more or less new to Christianity, since it's essentially an admittance of loss of power of the Church and embracing of atheism, but otherwise the ideas have been around for a long time. It might not have been a part of the clerical side of Christianity, but it was a part of it in practice.
>>46005672
It's not that. It's talking about Atheism and Christianity as a Philosophy, not a Religion. Not that it can't be wrong.
It blew my fucking mind as a kid to read about the idea of someone being interested in the philosophy of a religion even if they didn't believe in it's supernatural aspects.
>>45997730
>>46001650
>Tolkien and Lewis
Man I find this shit was more interesting to read about than their actual stories.
>>46005688
> It's talking about Atheism and Christianity as a Philosophy, not a Religion
Can you speak English, please?
> someone being interested in the philosophy of a religion even if they didn't believe in it's supernatural aspects
It's literally cultural nationalism: what Lewis standing for was his material well-being, one of the keys for stability of which was religion. In saying that he was a Christian, Lewis was proclaiming that he would pretend to believe in fairies if that would ensure that he could continue to enjoy his lifestyle. His obsession with apologetics was a way of trying to cement the social structure that benefited him instead of simply allowing it to exist. Think of Soviet Party functionaries serving the system because it benefited them despite them finding actual Communist ideology harmful for their purposes.
Yes, I don't think that anyone but literal madmen and the utterly illiterate are actually religious.
>>46005778
>Can you speak English, please?
That was English. Philosophy and Religion are different things.
It's talking about people being interested in the stories and ideas of Christianity even if they did not believe in it as a religion. That things can expand your understanding or find values you agree with if you study them even if you don't hold them true.
>>46005816
> It's talking about people being interested in the stories and ideas of Christianity even if they did not believe in it as a religion.
But that only follows: people who grew up in a culture influenced by Christianity are inevitably going to feel some familiarity with it. Might as well say that Yanks are more used to the idea of people wearing shoes inside their houses despite understanding that it's unclean.
> things can expand your understanding or find values you agree with if you study them even if you don't hold them true
You're essentially saying that new experiences lead to new insights. You don't need religion for that; hell, studying religion and apologetics can stunt your growth since their very premises require you to suppress critical thinking.
I get what you're talking about, but you focus too much on a single childhood experience. Are you monolingual? Try learning a new language, that'll expand your borders more than any religious studies possibly could.
>>46005891
>I get what you're talking about, but you focus too much on a single childhood experience. Are you monolingual? Try learning a new language, that'll expand your borders more than any religious studies possibly could.
Two and a half, I'd say. English, Indonesian, Latin. Latin isn't really something you can claim to be fully fluent in these days.
I think you are also underestimating the study of religion as a learning tool. It's a fascinating glance into the culture and mindset of people and in particular how values differ across cultures. I'd never recommend someone try learning about a country and it's culture without an in depth study of it's major religions.
>>45989360
>Give Jadis a better chance and since she's supposed to be Satan
If you read the Lore, Satan actually has 0 chance and is a huge jobber.
Hell in the original Codice, Satan worked for God
>>45999229
word the lotr trilogy sucks as well because you know they're gonna destroy the ring
>>46003309
That's because, like Tolkien, Lewis was a huge nerd who hated modernity. Unlike Tolkien who was elegiac for pastoral England and railed against industrialization however, Lewis was elegiac for reneissance 'faith' and the lack of proliferation of knowledge. He presents the idea in The Discarded Image that, in being bombarded with information constantly, people have no idea how to really parse it and just accept all of it or none of it as true, leading to ignorance and cynicism
>>46003362
This, it always really bummed me out they had to leave Narnia. like WTF. wouldn't government collapse?
>>46005948
Do you really think that you need to know the most influential writings of the Anglican church to know England? I doubt Englishmen would agree. Do you think you need to know the finer points of the Nichiren school to understand Japan? But only a third of the Japanese consider themselves Buddhist, and almost all of them do it because their parents did it. Russians overwhelmingly claim to be religious, but only a tiny portion of the population can at all recite a single prayer. You put way too much stock into religion, and that's probably because you come from a country where it has a lot of influence.
>>46006015
It did. Didn't you read Prince Caspian? Shit went damnwell to hell.
>>46006022
If you want to understand the context of quite a bit of history, it helps to understand the mindsets of the people making decisions.
I think you are putting too little stock on the effect religion has had on the history and culture of countries.
>>46006022
You just admitted that religion is so embedded into these peoples culture that it's second nature like breathing to them, so how would understanding the religion that forms the unrecognized foundations of their society not lead to greater understanding of that society?
Take America for example. Looking at our pyscho-tier protestant background shed's a LOT of light on our culture regarding recreation, sex, violence, etc, even if the number of actual practicing christians is a minor fraction of the populace. Examine how literally every one of our candidates - EVEN SANDERS, THE JEW! - couches their rhetoric in Christian concepts.
>>46006042
Religion was always a tool of the few to control the many. Saying that reading justifications of some long dead king's debauchery helps understand common people today is naïve at best.
>>46006062
First,
>le tips fedora
Second, it very much gives you a look into how people might accept or rationalize such justifications in their own actions. People build their morality frameworks based on this stuff they learn as a kid, which quite frankly is terrifying but is also enlightening. Of course it isn't the ONLY thing to study, and religion is influenced by culture just as religion influences culture, but it is another aspect of a society that cannot be ignored.
>>46006056
> You just admitted
I advise you to learn to read. I said the exact opposite: religion is irrelevant to common people, even those that claim to be religious.
You being a Yankistani explains your point, but I doubt you even understand the reasons for your country being so heavily infested with religiosity.
> Examine how literally every one of our candidates - EVEN SANDERS, THE JEW! - couches their rhetoric in Christian concepts.
But that disproves your point: people pretend to be religious because it's convenient, not because they actually are religious. Religion is a glue and a mirror for most any conservative society; your pastors are repeating what is being said outside of their churches, not putting forward new ideas.
But then again, I know little about the religious side of Yankistan, which is perhaps for the best.
>>46006092
> > tips
Oh, fuck off, you Yank cunt, lack of religiosity is the default state in the rest of the First world.
> it is another aspect of a society that cannot be ignored
I just pointed out how it is ignored in quite a number of cultures. If you don't intend to listen to what I'm saying, then don't expect that I will listen to you.
>>45989638
That's blatantly wrong, good sir.
>>46005617
Better, but still wrong.
The Horse and his boy > The Voyage of the Dawn Treader > The Wizard's Nephew > The Silver Chair > The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe = Prince Caspian >>>>>> The Last Battle
>>46006147
>yank yank yank
>lack of religiosity is the default state
Euphoric as fuck bro
Someone from enlightened liberal euroshit has a bug up their ass, probably has something to do with cultural enrichment. It's OK we hate Islam too.
People wouldn't PRETEND to be religious if it didn't WORK. If no one cared or believed, no one would give a fuck. Which i'll give you, is increasingly the case! But there is still a hard kernal of 'central' religious folk
>>46006181
I find it funny that we basically all agree that the one that is constantly made into movies is far from the best.
I'd love to see how they'd try to handle stuff like the Giant's Feast in a movie or if they'd shy away from the fact that 'Congrats, you basically just ate a baby'
>>46006182
> enlightened liberal euroshit
> YANKS writing like THIS again
All right, I'm checking off my Burgerland bingo off you.
And yes, I gave up trying to have a rational argument with you, so I guess you won.
>>46006215
The argument you were trying to have was FAR from rational. You spent most of it insulting him or just saying 'You are wrong' without providing evidence.
To quote:
>Oh, fuck off, you Yank cunt, lack of religiosity is the default state in the rest of the First world.
>>46006215
Actually, I'm the other guy you were arguing with and I'm Australian (Why do you think I can speak Indonesian?). So half of that was me.
>>46005967
But Satan doesn't die in the first book.
>>45989219
Lion Jesus is superior to Regular Jesus,but both are still inferior to Robot Jesus.
>>46006674
So what I'm hearing is 'Trukk not Lion'?
>>46006805
Geewuners, pls.
I'm Israeli, we didn't learn about anything in the New Testament until until we were in the seventh grade. All the subtext flew right over my head and what I got was a fantasy adventure which started good, turned mediocre somewhere around the middle and became plain bizarre towards the end.
>>46001316
>I think /tg/'s distaste for the series has far more to do with the fairy tale philosophy than the Christian theology.
For me, it was that I felt like Lewis was trying to trick me into something. The early books started off with something like a 65-35 proportion of fairy tale to theology, and by the later books it had swung the other way. I remember reading one of the later books and going "wait a minute, it was Jesus all along", and losing all interest as it became more and more obvious. IF the series had kept more to the fairy tale stuff, I would be a lot more enthusiastic about it.
>>46004995
I read it as an adult and loved it.
"If you think of your mother the knife will break." That's just delightful.
>>46003220
insert some more lion-ish urges into aslan
traumatize some kids with mighty-mauling power-jesus
>>46007382
Read A Horse and His Boy. He literally does that.
>>46006805
bullshit anon, lio-convoy is fucking aces and you know it, bad toy or no
>>46003839
In the United States, prejudice against the Irish was intense in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries.
>>46005750
Tolkien was a /tg/ That Guy autist before That Guy autists were invented. He actually sent a furious letter to Lewis about how the little girl's encounter with the satyr in the beginning of the first book didn't end in rape, because that'd be mythologically accurate.
Imagine all you knew about a person is that they groaned at an encounter between a girl and a satyr demanding rape "for the sake of accuracy". Tell me you wouldn't immediately imagine them to be the sweatiest, fattest, doritos-dust-covered-est That Guy in the universe.
>>45989219
Jesus Christ IS a lion, the car ain't gonna save you now.
>>46007189
I think the theology got less prominent before a huge upward spike for the Last Battle. My favorite book in the series is the Silver Chair -- that one and Dawn Treader are probably the most creative in terms of worldbuilding. A Horse and His Boy was fun too, even if the Islamophobic overtones are a bit unpleasant in retrospect.
>>46008585
Silver Chair was a wonderfully dark book.
>>46007539
Wow.
He did realize it was supposed to be a kids book, right?Right?
>>46008891
I think his thrust was more "remove satyr" than "add rape", anon.
>>45989241
>>45989538
Narnia is not a metaphor or allegory. It's a fantasy that starts from the premise that Christian myth is real, and would be just as real in a fantastic alternate reality.
>>46008585
Lewis was never a great writer but Chair and Dawn Treader had some fantastic, haunting images that have stuck with me all my life. So you know, he had something.
>>46009181
What he had was a wonderful sense for Wonder, both dark and light. He was really good at creating unearthly but also amazing imagery.
Aslan creating the world by singing it into existance still sticks with me, as does the Werewolf from Prince Caspian.
>I can fast a hundred years and not die. I can lie a hundred nights on the ice and not freeze. I can drink a river of blood and not burst. Show me your enemies.
>>45989219
I prefer his essays and speeches to his fiction
>>46008891
Of course. That's why you'll notice there are no fauns in the Hobbit. Or girls, come to think of it.
And to be honest I can sympathise with the crux of his objection - Lewis doesn't worry about the integrity of his imagined world or the elements of real mythology he uses, they're all in the service of telling a child-friendly story that acts as an introduction to Christian thought.
Tolkien was exactly as Christian as his friend, and took pains to make sure Middle-Earth was compatible with a catholic outlook, but he didn't think misrepresenting someone else's mythos was the way to go about it. Never mind the faun, what REALLY pissed him off in the Narnia books was casual cameos from the likes of Father Christmas and Bacchus.
>>46009234
Addendum: Something that struck me, pondering the werewolf was that unlike a lot of modern authors, Lewis really played with a very nasty, realistic feeling in his fights despite the wonder of his setting.
Very few of his fights are long, drawn out things or even something fancy. They are about nasty violence and killing the other guy quickly. After all, the green serpent isn't killed by a single graceful blow. It's killed by grabbing it and hacking it's head off like you were trying to fell a squirming tree, blow after blow.
>>46005472
but...they never do. Once they progress into adulthood they are mindwiped and sent back to their old self, and then they die
>>45997946
>The wild mixing of mythologies is atrocious, fucking santa claus and elves rubbing elbows with satyrs and dryads
Wait are we talking about Tokein now
>>45989219
I liked it.
Obviously the religious metaphor is very heavy handed, but it's still a nice and pleasant read.
As a setting I felt a bit sad of howshort-lived world it is. In terms of Earth-time the entire world lasted only about as long as professor's life.I suppose it could serve as another metaphor - end of a life as an end of a world.
>>46003097
>unzips bible
>"psh, I'll be preying for you"
I hated how in the last ook one of the kids was excluded (She liked to dress fancy and not associating with us) so they could be 7 kids at the final.
>>46007189
It's at least loads better than the Christian fiction (both in book and movie forms) that come out today.
As a Christian, I weep whenever I see commercials for shit like Heaven is So Real or Miracles from Heaven. I have no idea how they got Jennifer Garner for the latter.
>>46009384
>Of course. That's why you'll notice there are no fauns in the Hobbit.
Mashing myths together has been a part of fantasy since fantasy was a thing. Yes, that includes anything you can think of as "ancient mythology". Do you think the guys who made up the myths of Classical Greece or ancient Egypt were concerned about keeping an aesthetic consistent? Do you think they bashed their heads against the table trying to find a "culturally appropriate" creature to insert into a story to serve as a badguy? They fucking looked at any two random animals and went "yeah, it's got the head of this one and the legs of this other one" and kept telling the story. This kind of autism is a very modern invention. It's practically Tolkien's own - fantasy before that, throughout the Middle Ages, 17th, 18th and 19th century didn't give a shit about a culturally consistent world, it was DEFINED by not making sense. That's why it was called "fantasy". Arthurian legends from the Middle Ages regularly featured characters from Greek, Roman, Celtic, and Germanic mythology - do you think people through autistic shitfits over that? Do you think people gave Lewis Carroll shit because the fucking laws of physics in Wonderland aren't internally consistent?
Even writers who wrote within "settings" didn't give a shit about the sense of them. Howard practically made shit up as he went about the Hyborian age. One book Conan is fighting pirates, the next one he's up against radioactive space aliens from the Earth's core. Entire countries were invented on the spot so he'll have where to travel "this time".
Tolkien did fantasy literature a great service by popularizing the concept of the "coherent fantasy world", but he also did damage to the idea that took lots of time to heal properly.
>>46009849
I'm still so very sad that they WASTED Cage in the latest Left Behind.
You have Nicholas Cage and you didn't make him Nicolae Carpathia? The man was born to devour scenery.
>>46003779
I do think about things, which is why I don't measure the value of something by how much it conforms to a self-loathing ideology. C.S. Lewis would agree with me on this, by the way.
>>46008585
>using the phrase "Islamophobic overtones" unironically
>>46009881
While I don't disagree outright, it may be worth noting that Tolkien also, to a large degree, pioneered the idea of the "independent" fantasy world. Don't know how strongly this relates here but, thinking about the other things you've mentioned and some other early 20th century fantasy, it kind of strikes me that just about all of it either presumes to have happened at some point in real history (that includes actual mythology, which was seen as something that's happened "in the past" of whenever the story was originally told), or involved people from Earth being sent somewhere else (in their dreams, walking through a mysterious door, falling down a rabbit hole, sent to Mars by a scientist, etc.), where the separation from Earth would allow for suspension of disbelief regarding the sensibility of things.
>>46010059
The "independent" fantasy world is definitely something popularized by Tolkien, and has proven to be a really great literary idea.
Note that Tolkien's mythology(and Howards) do technically occur in the distant past, but so many aeons ago that the landmass of the earth is much different than it is today. Similarly, Warhammer 40k occurs in the distant future but is also effectively a mythology independent of actual history and society.
>>46008585
>A Horse and His Boy was fun too, even if the Islamophobic overtones are a bit unpleasant in retrospect.
You mean how the evil not!muslim was judged harshly while the good not!muslim was accepted by Aslan in the end?
>>46003220
>healthy Satanism.
Is there unhelty Satanism?
>>45989219
Liked them a lot as a child. Owned/read them all. May go back and read one or two of them again every couple years
As an adult it's too simple, with not enough material for a setting, and the story doesn't have enough substance, but the nostalgia value is there.
Doesn't make them bad, I'm just no longer the intended audience
>>46009951
>I do think about things, which is why I don't think about things in these specific, offensive terms. People who do think about the fact that books exist in reality and about how they're connected to the public consciousness are just self-loathing drones.
It's actually the other way around.
>>46010298
Definitely not enough material for a setting in the books themselves, but there are a lot of things in the background that could be fleshed out further. For example, Archenland, the ancient medieval-style human kingdom south of Narnia.
>>46010125
>40k is probably the perfect mix of goofy and serious with grimdark slathered all over.
>>45999437
So essentially there's going to be a massive WWI Style event where all the gods fuck each other up?
Shit, THAT'S the book series Wizards should produce.
>>46002070
>>46002116
Think I figured out my next GURPS campaign.
>>46004995
I found the symbolism way to in your face.
>So the animals are their budding sexuality, and the evil prudish adults want to kill it.
Also, when they get more intimate, they start .....*wait for it*....petting and touching their animals.
*wink, wink* Aren't i subtle?
Also
>God is evil, and we go to kill it;
>Every member of the Church, which of course has to have a Inquisition expy, is totally and irredeemably a dick;
>Lots of dust and atoms materialism;
Even Lewis and Tolkien made some people redeemable or sympathetic.
Anyone who tries to make "the -insert religious/political/philosphical- version of X" should better stop.
It's gonna be a preachy, annoying thing.
>>46006214
Poor Puddleglum.
>>45998923
>uncomfortable stuff like Muslims worshipping demons
But they do though. Allah is a moon idol.
>>46010844
>Allah is a moon idol.
Allah just means God, you know, like Elohim?
It's just weird arabic version of abrahaminism, with apocrypha and arabic mythology added.
>>46010799
I loved His Dark Materials, but like Narnia, they got more obvious as they went on. The first one is a masterpiece, and the only one of the trilogy I would read again.
>>46010130
No, I mean how the not!muslims worship demons.
>>46010997
They always seemed more like pre!Islam arabic civilizations to me. There wasn't many signs of anything islamic.
>>46011018
Did they have any other gods other than Tash?
>>45989773
I liked the design of the Calormene hauberks a lot.
>>46011059
Wikipedia says yes.
>>46011059
They do. They are not named but it IS mentioned they have a pantheon.
>>46007539
>He actually sent a furious letter to Lewis about how the little girl's encounter with the satyr in the beginning of the first book didn't end in rape, because that'd be mythologically accurate.
Gonna need a source on that before I believe it.
>>46007411
Mah nigga. He was one of the things that really made Beast Wars II a fun ride.
>>46010230
yes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-f8KuLbDH8
>>46003371
They weren't painted as inherently evil though, they just lived in a fucked up system. They also had a few good qualities, too.
>>46006147
Damn, your fedora must be a little too tight for your fat head, m8.
That or you are just a typical atheist with turbo-autism. Your obsession with proper spelling and grammar on a Thai shitposting image board is good evidence.
A campaign set in pre-Jadis Charn could be interesting.
I always felt that place had been more interesting than Narnia ever got to be.
My players have probably never read the books, they might have watched the movies at some point. Could I get away with a campaign set in the world of Narnia?
>>46011437
If you're sneaky, sure.
Start off in, say, Arkenland and only gradually let them figure out where they are.
>>46011507
>Arkenland
I mean Archenland.
My bad.
>>46011437
Wouldn't really make a good setting without a lot of work anon. There's just not a whole lot of material.
It's like the opposite of Tolkien. Story focused with not a whole lot of world building. Tolkien wanted to build his world and the story was just his way of doing that
>>45989219
IMO I love the story- the characters are varied and full of life, the adventures feel fresh and exciting, and I deeply cared about what was happening as I was reading.
The setting, however, isn't anything spectacular. That isn't to say that it's bad, it's just fairly run-of-the-mill fantasy without much to distinguish it as something more exciting. While I loved the stories set in Narnia, I never felt much desire to learn more about Narnia and its inner workings. Simply put, I enjoyed my time there but didn't have any attachment to the land itself
>>45989612
It's basically the book of Revelation in another world with less obtuse symbolism. The last battle that the book is named after is roughly equal to the final battle between God and the Devil, which concludes the world. They are definitely in heaven though, because they live with Aslan instead of him visiting them, which is the same as living with Christ.
>>46001612
Lewis' ideas for Aslan were pretty consistent. The reason Aslan was so heavily physically involved in the first book is because that book represents Christ's time on Earth, culminating in sacrifice and resurrection. After the stone table, Aslan takes on a more metaphysical guiding role.
>>46011437
I would say yes, but be upfront about it. >>46011507 suggests making the exact same mistake Narnia itself makes; trying to trick your audience into participating in something just in case they wouldn't be interested at the outset. Tell your players "hey, there's a setting I really like based on these books, I know you don't know anything about it but I'd like to try running a game in it."
If you just start it up and don't tell them, when they eventually find out, they're going to feel manipulated and you risk having them just drop the game.
>>46011771
>trying to trick your audience into participating in something just in case they wouldn't be interested at the outset
Good point, I stand corrected.
>>46006235
Uh-huh, I must always pretend like I'm speaking to a robot or I lost the debate even if I present good points the other party cannot refute (so does one need to be intimately familiar with Anglicanism to know England or not?), while that lad can call me a tipper while doing nothing more than repeatedly asserting his position. Something tells me you aren't unbiased.
>>46006241
I have little idea what goes on in Straya other than that your politics are Roman Republic tier, but when you sound like a Yank who is unable to comprehend that there might be a place where they don't celebrate July 4th, I'm going to call you a Yank and not be taken aback when you correct me. Religion is irrelevant for most of the First world, and even though it's painful realising that the countless hours you invested into your autistic hobby aren't going to pay off, you have to let go. A country is its people, not dusty books written by fairytale traders.
>>46011371
Two questions: are you a Yank and are you religious or strongly identifying with a religion? If there's a yes to either of those, then I'm deeply sorry, but I can't manage to find a fuck to hand over to you.
>>46012762
>A country is its people, not dusty books written by fairytale traders.
And it's people and especially their history are heavily affected by their religion. You can't look at the present without examining the past and the past of most of those countries has been heavily shaped by religion.
I mean, just look at England. It's history and it's church are almost incestuously interconnected.
>>46012762
>so does one need to be intimately familiar with Anglicanism to know England or not?
Oh hell yes. Have you seen how much of England's history is tied to the CHURCH OF ENGLAND?
>>46012762
>I don't know about other countries but I'm going to make sweeping generalizations about them.
>>46012871
So answer me a question with a yes or no: can you say that you are familiar with a given peoples when said peoples couldn't care less about religion?
> m-muh history
Yanks have only outlawed slavery and Japan was a feudal society a century and a half ago, you triple autist. You can't judge a whole fucking peoples by notes made by pre-modern nerds.
> It's history and it's church are almost incestuously interconnected
So knowing that the Anglican church rejects the concept of purgatory tells you something about the average Englishman… exactly how?
>>46012901
All right, a different question: how much power does history have over the people? Can you judge Iraqis by the history of Babylon? Or do you think you can know what Mohammed thinks after you've studied the period of Mongol invasion? Or maybe looking at Iraq under the Ottomans gives you insight into how Mohammed is going to spend his weekend? No to any of these? To all of these? Just as I thought.
>>46012946
And the people I argue with sure don't do anything like that, right?
>>46013065
>So answer me a question with a yes or no: can you say that you are familiar with a given peoples when said peoples couldn't care less about religion?
In several areas, yes. As there are quite a few social and cultural norms left over even after religion is no longer practiced.
>>46013118
All right, so tell me something about the Englishmen based on Anglican theology, or use whatever example you're familiar with.
>>46013065
Just a single example in case it worms its way through your ignorance- Church records are one of our most important and accurate resources on population numbers throughout Europe. Long before governments organised their own surveys, each local church maintained a record of all births, deaths and marriages, as well as other events of note. We can even draw truly phenomenal amounts of information from things like account books. Without any subjective discussion on the value of faith, religion is an important source for any historical research.
>>46013118
To sum it up, you believe that history has power over people while for some reason singling out the religious side of it. This view has no power of prediction on its own and provides a patchy paradigm at best. You have a queer hobby of theology out of which you try to blow out a whole science. It just doesn't work like that, m8. History does not shape itself, especially when it doesn't relate to anything that actually mattered to the people it describes. You can't have studied theology and not noted how nobody aside from theologians gives a fuck about it. Sure, reading about how some monk sperged out may be satisfying for you in its own way, but don't pretend that it gives you any useful skills, and don't pretend that your time was well spent.
>>46013144
Alright. For one: The English slang and language have been heavily influenced by it's religious history. Many phrases in common vernacular have a religious origin.
In addition, many superstitions that people still have a cultural awareness of are heavily tied to a religious background. The number 13 being unlucky for instance is drawn from the 13 people at the Last Supper.
Third, a lot of England's artistic side is actually drawn heavily from Christianity and it's symbolism. The Romanticism movement, for example, cannot be truly understood without looking at the theological underpinnings, the ideas of Original Sin and Redemption that lay heavy on it.
Finally, there is strong circumstantial evidence towards the rise of Methodism and it's tenants being a serious blunting factor to revolutionary fervor about the time of the French revolution. Which looks to be a serious contributing factor to England still having a monarchy. Due to a specific religious denomination that was softer and it's focus on Arminianism rather than Predestination.
>>46013441
That's w e a k. The very most you could do was note something that doesn't even have anything to do with religion, much less religious topics. I'm embarrassed for you. You should be ashamed of yourself, but you seem incapable of that.
All right, since you gave up on trying to present an actual argument while refusing to admit that you're wrong, I guess it's pointless to expect reasonable behaviour from your from now on. Have a good day.
>>46013504
>Presented with a point he can't refute
>Declares victory
2/10, try harder.
>>46013503
Either you're grasping at straws or you really are that delusional. Language and superstitions? That's it? Wow, just fucking wow.
> the French revolution
I love it when theologians pretend that religions matter using this example. No factors could possibly matter, no factors could possibly influence Methodists themselves, it's all just the right kind of religious people saying the right kind of apologetics.
In all seriousness, I feel insulted. The most important event in Western history, down to some sect? Don't demean yourself.
>>46013612
What do archival records have to do with religion? I might as well say that you can't know anything if you don't know agriculture, since it's what kept civilisations running, and make more sense than you.
>>46013644
>In all seriousness, I feel insulted. The most important event in Western history, down to some sect? Don't demean yourself.
...you didn't actually read his reply did you? He was talking about the TIME of the French Revolution. Not the event itself.
>>46013644
Do you have any evidence to back up your assertions? As there are published scholarly journals and books to back up mine.
>>46013644
Can you make a single argument yourself that isn't just 'You are stupid and this is demeaning?'
>>46006182
Americans are more religious because it distracts them from being so royally tread upon by their corporate overlords.
>>46013644
>Bunch of french people killing each other to make their country worse
>MOST IMPORTANT EVENT IN WESTERN HISTORY
>>46013441
>This
Clergymen were often the only people who were actually literate. Even nobility often weren't into the late medieval period
>>46013670
>What do archival records have to do with religion?
Atheist-fag here. Because the religions actively supported those archival records with a vast infastructure and desire for knowledge.
>>46013718
Right, I didn't notice "blunting". Still, he is still stating that religious movements operate independently of outside factors, which doesn't make any sense. Did people become Methodists because they disagreed with revolutionary ideas or did people become Methodists and then formed their views on the issue? To say that it's the former is to deny the whole science of sociology.
>>46013751
Do those journals have anything at all do with theology? Are they even remotely religious? If yes, then I consider that proof to the contrary.
>>46013795
If you get triggered by bad words regardless if there are points made, then I suggest you just don't read my posts.
>>46013839
I can tell you're a rightist because of this post.
>>46013880
You're missing cause and effect.
> le religions contributed to science meme
That's like saying that Hitler contributed to de-Nazification because Autobahn provided good infrastructure for post-war Germany.
>>46013883
>If you get triggered by bad words regardless if there are points made, then I suggest you just don't read my posts.
...what points?
>>46013883
> To say that it's the former
The latter. I meant the latter.
>>46013940
You're proving my point.
>>46013883
>Do those journals have anything at all do with theology? Are they even remotely religious? If yes, then I consider that proof to the contrary
>Do studies on the effects of religion have anything to do with religion?
GEE, TAKE A FUCKING GUESS GENIUS.
>>46013955
>You're proving my point.
No, you literally haven't made points. You've just called people names and said they are wrong.
You have referenced no studies or even made a coherent point.
>>46013965
Poor thing, you can't even read.
>>46013926
What kind of moron are you? For about 1500 years pretty much ALL THE SCIENTISTS were either highly religious or actually clergy. The church funded and backed innumerable examples of scientific research, including GALILEO'S (that's right: the guy whom fedoraists always use as the first example of the church surpassing science) early research. And I'm not even going into Muslim and Jewish scholars, who were almost all men of religion (Jewish rabbis and Quranic scholars) who made quantum leaps for their time in medicine, mathematics, astronomy, biology and logic. Maimonides, a.k.a Rambam, quite possibly the most important historical Jewish religious figure (as opposed to ones of dubious historicity) even went as far as to write that SCIENCE IS GOD'S WORK AND SHOULD BE PRACTICED BY ALL WHO CONSIDER THEMSELVES FAITHFUL (because God's work is the universe and it is man's way of understanding it).
>>46013883
>Did people become Methodists because they disagreed with revolutionary ideas or did people become Methodists and then formed their views on the issue? To say that it's the former is to deny the whole science of sociology.
People became Methodists and the beliefs of Methodism influenced their opinions and thoughts on the revolution and the world about them due the differences between that and Calvanism.
>>46013926
Are you actively trying to say Religion was somehow anti-science?
Religion was the precursor to academia, that is fact.
>>46013991
> You have referenced no studies
Neither has anyone else here, m80.
> or even made a coherent point
Religion doesn't matter because it's a tool of politics, and there's no use to look into the barrel of a gun when you're interested in the man who holds it.
>>46014027
> Yanks WRITING like THIS again
Didn't bother reading your post. Speak English next time.
>>46014027
I like how Galileo was literally the chruch cracking down on an ineffective Scientist spouting his stupid shit.
>>46013926
Okay, for a simple example, did they teach you about Gregor Mendel in school?
The father of the scientific field of genetics?
He was a monk. He was studying to try to learn more about God's creation and how He'd set things up.
>>46014080
That is always fun. Yeah, he was right in the end but he had literally no proof and all they asked was that he stop teaching it as fact until he got some proof. He only got in deep shit when he refused to get any proof and started insulting the pope that was on his side.
He was even better at being a raging jackass than he was at planetary mechanics.
>>46013883
>I can tell you're a rightist because of this post.
French Revolution.
>1789 – 1799
Compared to two FAR MORE important events for democract and the liberal agenda.
English Civil war
>1642–1651
and the Signing of the Magna Carta
>1215
>>46013997
Yes I can read. You literally can't have a study on the effects of religion in a journal and NOT have that journal have anything at all to do with theology because it's PUBLISHING STUDIES ON THE EFFECTS OF RELIGION.
By the very nature of publishing the study it has something to do with theology. It's like asking if a journal publishing a study on fish has anything aquatic in it.
>>46014028
You're stupid. You're stupid and there's no helping you. But I'll ask you anyway: why did people become Methodists? No, I won't take "because they were impressed with its theology" as a valid answer.
>>46014053
All right, so I'm spelling this out for the most special of you: religious institutions provided the infrastructure for intellectual pursuits, and religion itself is antithetical to science and scientific paradigm. Or am I not clear enough for you? Should I dumb everything I write down a few notches just for you?
>>46014104
And all he did is sort of borrow other people's planetary design too.
It wasn't that the church was saying he was wrong it was the chruch saying "Do some fucking homework then"
>>46014123
> Anglocentrism
>>46014069
It's no use. This anon has a mind like a steel trap-rusted shut and impossible to pry open.
There is no way you're going to pry that fedora off his head.
>>46011572
>Tolkien wanted to build his world and the story was just his way of doing that
I tried reading the Silmarillion once. Never again. It was somehow MORE dry and boring than the Old Testament that it reads like.
>>46014137
>All right, so I'm spelling this out for the most special of you: religious institutions provided the infrastructure for intellectual pursuits, and religion itself is antithetical to science and scientific paradigm.
How does this work then? the Religious people who were wondered by gods work and thus set about studying it..... hated science?
>>46014137
>No, I won't take "because they were impressed with its theology" as a valid answer.
Actually, that is a strong contributing factor. Predetermination was not a popular theological belief due to the lack of ability to control your own fate and Methodism offered an alternative to that.
>>46014157
>French revolution has the same outcome as both the English Civil war and the signing of the magna carta
>only it has more regicide that plunges the country into debt that then renounces it's own ideas around the time of napoleon.
>>46013880
Also an atheist here, and I would say that just because we have the records because churchmen kept, that doesn't make them part of the church's lasting cultural legacy because their content is not church-specific. Or rather, it usually IS church-specific, in that a lot of it is records of weddings, funerals, baptisms and the like, but the significance of these records isn't that John Smith was an Anglican and lived an Anglican life, it's that the Smith family lived in X town in Y year and married Miss Z, and they had N children and so on-- it's all demographic information, or genealogical stuff or the like. If we had secular records that old us the same thing, it would be no different.
The important stuff IS our daily language and habits-- people saying "Bless you" when someone sneezes, or blaspheming when they're upset. It's the Protestant Work Ethic that lives on in non-protestants and even non-Christians in the states. It's the christian moralism that let the Hays code dominate cinema for so long and which keeps the MPAA so crazy even now that it's theoretically a secular body. It's the Pieta showing up in hundreds of movies, the self-sacrificing hero being "a Christ figure" instead of, for example, a "Tyr figure". Church records give us solid facts about what populations and places were like a thousand years ago, but the records don't influence our modern lives, it's the people those records record who do-- their habits and opinions passed on to us for good or ill, even if we don't share their faith.
>>46013670
As for you, agriculture has a very similar effect to the church on modern living-- you don't have to be a farmer to suffer through Daylight Savings Time or to get July and August off of school.
>>46014147
My favorite part is when they said 'Sure, you can publish a book with it as a possibility as long as that book also includes the current theory so that people can decide for themselves'.
He wrote it as an argument between the wonderful Mary Sue genius Salviati who was TOTALLY NOT HIM and a drooling retard literally called 'Simplicio' who was visually designed of two of Galileo's critics.
This is...well, it's a magical level of jackassery. About on par with the Eborsisk from Willow. A giant, two headed fire breathing monster that George Lucas named after Roger Ebert and Gene Siskel.
>>46014101
You do know that biologists are about the most atheistic people out there, right?
>>46014125
> Yanks WRITING like THIS again
English, please.
>>46014161
You're rejecting materialism. In rejecting materialism, you reject knowing itself. Why do you think that you can make outrageous statements whenever you want while I must take great pains to convince you that every effect has a cause?
>>46014173
Before I say anything on the subject, explain to me how it came to be that scientists are atheistic by default and religiosity is most observed in the ignorant.
>>46014210
What I am saying is that you cannot divorce religion from politics. Saying that Methodists were against the revolution is saying that a number the rightists who were against the revolution converted to Methodism to have a better excuse. Kings have always commanded priests, and priests only had as much power as they were given by kings. The Roman pontiff rose to his position because he courted Western European monarchs, not because his theology was any more convincing than that of the other four patriarchs.
>>46014227
Uh-huh, except that liberalism and socialism never took hold until after the French Revolution. But I guess as long as it didn't happen in England or Yankistan it just doesn't matter.
>>46014491
>You're rejecting materialism. In rejecting materialism, you reject knowing itself.
I-I know philosophy! I read the first paragraph of the wikipedia page on Existentialism! B-but at least I'm not religious, right? That automatically scores me a few smart points, right?
>>46014491
>You do know that biologists are about the most atheistic people out there, right?
That doesn't mean religion and the religious didn't make major contributions to science before this was the case.
And there are plenty of religious biologists. Not every religious person is some sort of young-earth creationist.
>>46003981
>Almost never fuck
>Almost never
>Almost
>most
>st
>>46014491
>Before I say anything on the subject, explain to me how it came to be that scientists are atheistic by default and religiosity is most observed in the ignorant.
Actually, in general attendance of regular religious practice by those in scientific professions is only 2% below that of the general population. Statistically, barely notable.
>>46014491
>Uh-huh, except that liberalism and socialism never took hold until after the French Revolution. But I guess as long as it didn't happen in England or Yankistan it just doesn't matter.
>Magna carta is literally the Great Charter of the Liberties
>Literally the birthplace of the modern western world and it's policical ideology.
You call yourself a liberal, in reality you're just a socialist.
>>46014491
>Before I say anything on the subject, explain to me how it came to be that scientists are atheistic by default and religiosity is most observed in the ignorant.
Simple, religion is not as big or as useful as it once was.
We don't need churches funding schools anymore, we don't need churches funding universities and scientific experiments.
They still do however, Christian schools here in england are pretty high on the academic scale.
But I do wonder Mr Socialist, what country do you come from?
>>46014602
I think he might just be French.
Next thing you know he'll be spouting the 'King John was a useless idiot' meme.
>>46014653
But how could he wear a fedora and a beret at the same time?
>>46014653
It would make alot of sense considering he doesn't see the utter hypocrasy of the french "republic"
>>46014653
>Hon Hon Hon, Nothing Personal Enfant
>>46014671
That's not what it's called, but it does exist.
>>46014491
>Why do you think that you can make outrageous statements whenever you want while I must take great pains to convince you that every effect has a cause?
Because this is 4chan, because you're not actually taking any pains whatsoever, and nor are you expounding anywhere in your pointless diatribes that every effect has a cause.
But thanks for playing, fedoraman! Your failure at trolling has really kept this thread moving!
>>46014713
>Mon demoiselle
>>46014725
>>46014268
> Protestant Work Ethic
It was shaped by proto-capitalist ideas, as was Protestantism itself, not the other way around.
> It's the christian moralism that let the Hays code dominate cinema for so long
Explain how Christians wrote gory stories before that. Again, puritanism is influenced by politics instead of defining them.
Again, what I am saying is that religion is a mirror of societal change, not its catalyst. It's a simple idea that only a convinced rightist would disagree with.
>>46014526
Science is inherently materialistic. When you reject materialism, all your argumentation on anything related to objective truth becomes null and void. Trying to act clever won't change that.
>>46014531
> there are plenty of religious biologists
You do realise that most of them simply pretend to be religious so they won't get stares from their religious neighbours? It's a very regretful fact of life that it keeps happening.
>>46014572
Yankistan and everything Yankistani is an aberration. Again, even explicitly atheistic Yanks apparently attend religious services, so that doesn't say anything.
>>46014602
I am a socialist, m8. Liberalism is another face to conservatism, as centuries of history have decisively proven.
>>46014651
So you agree with me that the only worth in religion is the infrastructure religious institutions provide. It probably feels really painful: being stupid despite being right.
>>46014653
> everyone who doesn't agree with my nationalistic opinions is a nationalist of another country
Projecting hard, I see.
>>46013644
>French Revolution
>most important event in Western History
*tips Phrygian Cap*
>>46014491
>Being TRIGGERED by USING capslock FOR emphasis BECAUSE 4Chan DOESN'T support ITALICS or BOLD
fucking KEK
>>46014793
>Projecting hard, I see.
Yes, I'm projecting my French-ness onto you. Do you feel it? The baguettes growing inside you?
>>46014734
> everyone who doesn't hold /pol/ tier views on religion is a fedorafag and a troll
>>46014713
>>46014725
>>46014753
>>46014767
I think I might need help. The sun never sets on my fucking sides now.
>>46014793
>I am a socialist, m8. Liberalism is another face to conservatism, as centuries of history have decisively proven.
Alright then mr Fedoraman, tell me exactly how Conservatism is a bad ideology, and tell me how socialism would handle issues such as say: nature parks and roadworks.
Hey, remember when this thread was about a thinly-veiled pious fiction series and its potential application to tabletop fantasy gaming? That was great, wasn't it?
>>/his/
>>46014853
Not even out to defend liberalism? No, I think you'd better go back to /pol/.
>>46014830
We are mostly calling him a troll because he's made no real points other than a repeated 'no, you are wrong' and unsubstantiated insults despite people asking him for anything to back up his opinion.
Insults without content is quite often trolling.
>>46014793
Man, it must feel really good to pretend so hard that you're winning. How many trophies have you given yourself for your mindless repetition of the same tired canards?
>Yankistan, Yankistani, m8
English, please. Oh, wait, I can use another of your own lines against you! "All your argumentation on anything related to the presentation of the text on an image board has now become null and void."
>>46014846
>Sun never sets
I am gâchette'd
>>46014915
For someone french, he really loves English in his mouth.
>>46014910
From the very beginning I've stated that religion doesn't begin change, only reflects it. By this point your blindness towards this can only be wilful, so just fuck off already.
>>46014915
You know, you /pol/ types are so predictable I get sad whenever you act exactly like your kind would act. You're lower than fucking animals and that's fucking not pretty.
>>46014902
Oh I don't need to defend liberalism, at least, classical liberalism as in the application of freedom of rights for everyone and justified.
My point of my argument is that policial stances are not black and white. You can't have a "Socialist" view on climate change or the preservation of forests. You can however, have a Conservative view of them.
Because different issues should be tackled by different polical ideologies, not one overarching one that fails to understand the issues.
>>46014984
>From the very beginning I've stated that religion doesn't begin change, only reflects it.
And your evidence for this is? I'd like to see the study that supports it.
>>46014984
I love how I am a classical liberal who belives in open politics and mostly fiscal fluidity, yet this fucker thinks I'm some kind of hyper-capitalist because I don't want to live in a Socialist nightmare.
I beleive in a big external government, what do you beleive in fedoraman?
Hey, everyone. OP here. I come back a day later and see what you've done to my thread. Ypeople turned it from a discussion about Narnia into this... THING I'm not even going to try and understand.I'm so proud
Story: Nice mix of whimsy and genuine weight if you can deal with the heavy-handed Christian apologetics.
Setting: Sort of standard, but with some neat potential for connections with Earth and that comfy atmosphere you get in settings based on 20th century conservative fantasy.
>>46014987
> You can't have a "Socialist" view on climate change or the preservation of forests
That's news for me. Tell me something else about socialism. I bet you know which flavour we like live infants with.
>>46015023
You first. I can point to the clergy listening to nobility and nobility controlling clergy, but it not being a two-way street.
>>46015040
> socialist nightmare
Here's a bingo just for you.
>>46015131
>Communism on a national scale
>Ever not a totalitarian hellhole
Communism only works on the level of small individual communities.
>>45989658
I think about Voyage of the Dawn Treader more than any of the other books. So much great whimsical fantasy stuff in that book.
