What are some key ways psionics should differ from other forms of magic? Crunchwise I mean.
What can psionic do that regular magic can't? What can magic do that psionics can't?
One of the very few things I ever liked about an oft touted, Generic rpg, was that psionics were very subtle and took no energy, but the effects were nothing to write home about. Meanwhile magic was big and flashy and powerful, but could quickly leave a mage helpless from exhaustion.
Be balanced.
>>45950740
They shouldn't differ, they should just be a branch of magic revolving around mental effects.
>>45950740
I've always seen magic as some sort of magical pencil that brings scribbles to life, I.e. everyone has their own idea of what a mage shooting a fireball looks like
So magic is pretty op compared to psionics
While Psionics could be anything from mental things like sending illusions, shocking images, or just shutting thickheaded dunderheads down like robots, to something like telekinetic manipulation from throwing a rock or making a clock from a bunch of dust
And since magic follows that "Mana" stuff like "power within" crap, a psionic could bypass anti-magic or silencing effects if it is purely based on his noggin.
Whenever I've looked into separating Psionics and Magic, I tend to think of it as psi powers affecting the self, and magic affecting the world. So to yank shit from D&D, something like Cat's Grace or Bull's Strength (i.e. effects that affect someone) would be psionics, whereas Fireball or Grease (i.e. effects that affect the environment) are magic.
Leads to some interesting design space, where spells typically associated with wizards, i.e. Fly, Haste and Invisibility end up as psionic abilities instead.
Psionics should be transient, magic should linger.
A Psion launches a blast of fire, or reads someones mind, he does something and it's over.
Wizards and Clerics curse people and create books, scrolls, and magic items.
>>45950740
I think you need to start with a flavorwise difference, since it's out-of-genre in anything but RPGs to actually have both of these in the same setting.
For example, in a modern setting, maybe both fail to function without plausible deniability. Magic because it only happens where nobody is looking, psionics because they only things that could have happened through cleverness and luck.
In a fantasy setting, maybe it's just glowing vs not.
>>45950740
In my world, there are there branches of forces, Psionics, Magic, and Physics, and the three are balanced out.
Physics dominates the material plane, and is exactly what mainstream science says it is. It's weakness is that it can't directly affect magic or psionics, but it makes up for that by being overwhelmingly common, and existing on every planet, which isn't true for magic/psionics.
Magic can directly affect physics, but not psionics. Magic is something that exists in nature, and people who are in tune with magic can manipulate (in reality, the magic is just using their body). Magical forces are weird as fuck, and hella powerful, typically associated with gods and the movers of the universe. (I further break up the kinds of magic, but it's not relevant here).
Psionics comes from the human(oid) mind and soul, and can affect physics, but not magic. Magic can't control your mind, but psionics can. It can telekenitially move objects, but it can't for instance, make a permanent wall of fire like magic can; it would only exist as long as the psion wills it. With psionics, the human is really in the driver's seat, but again, not every world has psions.
Number wise, magic is spells per day, psionics is power points.
>>45950740
In TTRPG settings, I find the practical differences don't end up being significant enough. What's more, often times when they try to make them different by including omissions or areas where spheres of influence don't overlap, they create troublesome imbalances rather than entertaining dynamics and tradeoffs.
From a story perspective, I think the flow of thematics is that psionics is more bound up in science fiction while magic is more in the bounds of pure fantasy. How this effectively works out is that psionics play with fundamental forces in ways that tug at the hem of actual science. They manipulate real forces to create tangible effects.
Magic, on the other hand, is far less bound in reality. It doesn't necessarily pull from anything concrete and physical to do what it does. Conservation of mass, momentum, thermodynamics, none of that matters.
>>45950740
Forgive the pleb in me, but I'll break this down in DND terms.
> Magic
Conjuration, Necromancy, Transmutation
> Psionics
Abjuration (Offensive), Abjuration (Defensive)
> Both
Illusion, Divination, Enchantment
Psions are basically force mages, and specialize in manipulating forces that can't be countered, defenses that can't be breached, and dismantling enemy magic. However, magic is more versatile in what it can do.
Arcane magic requires borrowing magical energy from the world around you/other sources. Divine magic is borrowing magic from some self-sustaining entity like a forest spirit or God. Psionics is being a weak but entirely self sufficient source of magical energy on your own.
Stealing from Anima:
-Magic is a list of formulas, in which you chose an aspect (elements, creation, illusion, etc.) and explore it using your magic. You spend the Zeon (The Mana of the setting) and refine it through your own personal formulas, and create an effect in particular. You choose an aspect of reality to alter, and follow a series of steps in order to use it. Due to the nature of aspects, the "Spellbook of Light" can be used to blind an opponent, create a holy armor, bless a blade or rain energy judgment on your enemies. Even if the basic formula is unique to everyone (The crunch), each mage alters it to tailor it to themselves (You can fluff any spell like whatever you like, as long as it fits with the aspect and the effect).
>Short story: You put points into spellbooks of each aspect, some costing extra because opposite schools, and you get a list of spells. Metamagic shenanigans. Always fixed effect.
-Psionics are the latent power within oneself, where you choose specific powers and explore them. Instead of caring about understanding how it works, you focus on how to utilize it. Choosing an aspect (Telekinesis, Teleportation, Cryokinesis) you develop powers as you tailor it, so even two users of the same Discipline can have different powers, because they care about specific practical uses for them. It's a focus much more practical than "Scholar type" supernatural powers. They don't have anything to spend, but the strength of the power depends always on a roll. You have a pool of Psychic Points that are permanently spent to upgrade yourself, get slots for "innate powers" (Always active, even while asleep or unconscious), and new powers and disciplines; and temporally to improve your powers or get more powers on the fly, all for a limited time.
>Short story: You choose one or more Disciplines, you have a list of powers with lvls. You need a lvl 1 power of the discipline to get a lvl 2 of the same discipline, lvl 2 requirement for lvl 3.
>>45957076
On what they can do... There is really a need for that? I mean, thematic might seem possible, but crunchwise you end up with the hole "Caster/psionics superiority" because X or Y can do something the other can't.
Just give each type different tools to play, different styles, but don't limit outside of thematic concerns their power. A Mage can summon a mountain, a Psion can alter matter and create it from air, a Martial can kick the ground so hard that it rises up from the ground itself, a Socialite can convince the Goddess of Mountains to leave him a gift to remember her after a wonderful night together.
Everyone gets the same playground, but each kid have their own toys. They play together, and everyone gets to have fun, and they can always share. You can always make that things that can only be done with a great Psion and a Mage working together.
>>45950740
>What are some key ways psionics should differ from other forms of magic?
A mage should be wary of snipers because they never see the bullet coming, and can't defend themselves from it assuredly. The things they know about, they deal with.
A psion should worry least about snipers, because since he is unaware that the bullet exists it ceases to exist once it enters his sphere of influence. Gotta worry about that shit he "knows" is real.
All other differences essentially stem from this one. One controls the reality that they're in and one is the reality that they're in.
>>45951756
>[Psionics] should just be a branch of magic revolving around mental effects
I hate this with a passion.
>>45957293
So, what, the less you know, the more powerful you are? Wouldn't this make psions benefit from having low mental stats?
I'm of the firm opinion that psionics and magic shouldn't exist in the same setting, since they serve exactly the same narrative purpose. Attempts to separate the two thus always end up feeling forced and arbitrary.
I think it depends lot on what magic is in the setting.
Psionics could be more tied to natural world, can't break conservation laws when projecting energy, hard to detect, not vulnerable to anti-magic or distrubtions of magical sources. Just guys withh Ayy Lmao brain powers.
It leads to strange scenarios though. If the power of psionics comes from their own bodies they would be voracious eaters, especially users of telekinesis.
Psionics and Magic are completely different from each other
Magic: You use mana or some other external energy to make big flashing stuff, sometimes requiring some kind of ritual, like saying magical words or making a dance
Psionics: You can alter the universe using your mind: maybe you are modifying the code of the universe itself, like in The Matrix, or your thoughts are so powerful that they can move objects with your mind
>>45953188
>I think you need to start with a flavorwise difference, since it's out-of-genre in anything but RPGs to actually have both of these in the same setting.
Not necessarily. It may be out-of-genre to have that divide in a serious medieval fantasy story, but the concept of psionics can be found in Buddhist folklore, long before the western occult, pseudoscientific, and skiffy understandings of it entered the popular consciousness.
Of course, treating different types of supernatural powers as different types of things is mostly a new invention, but even in old folklores there's the concept of witchcraft being distinct from the concept of divine miracles, the concept of onmyoudo being different from the concept of ki, etc.
Don't take anything completely for granted, though: https://ogresvstrolls.wordpress.com/2013/09/26/magic-part-xlii-the-priest-and-the-magician/
>>45957316
Me too. I can't explain why. It just feels so... Wrong.
I like how it is handled in Dark Sun. Psionics are common and normal, most everyone has minor psionic talent. Magic is a terrifying thing that drains the life from an area and wizards are to be killed on sight.
>>45950740
The difference between Magic and Psionics should be the difference between a Wizard and a Sorcerer.
One should be primarily educated people that have to recite and memorize tons of shit to accomplish feats of supernatural prowess. As a consequence they have tons of control over their capabilities, but lesser raw power. More utility than damage, in a way, but not necessarily a slouch in the damage department.
The other should be primarily people that tripped into their powers, or people that require little to no training to perform supernatural feats, performing mostly on guided instincts. Because of this, they are capable of more raw power, but have a lower degree of fine control. Think in comparison to slinging everything in a room in a single direction, or just picking up all of the small, sharp objects and slinging them into a specific spot.
Now the difficult part is deciding which one should be which. I personally think that Magic should be mainly study-based. Wizards should be reading tons of books to learn their shit, and even Clerics still have to memorize scripture and rituals for their god(s). Meanwhile, Psychics pretty much wake up one day and say "I can fuck with people's minds now! Neat." and then start mind-tricking everyone they don't like.
tl;dr: Skill vs Power.
>>45961615
While you probably wouldn't exclude stuff like this it does feel like you left out one of the more interesting bits about psychics and that's their emotions and mental state affecting their powers. Stuff like going into your personal mental dreamworld to fight a manifestation of your insecurities to power up or an all powerful psionic being tearing themselves apart into a borderline eldritch abomination due to cognitive dissonance. With this in mind you can also split it down to 'left brain' and 'right brain' with left brain being a studied wizard and right brain being an enlightened psion.
If it were at all sensible then psionics would work on effecting the Self and magic never could.
The way I think of supernatural power being delineated is something like this:
Body: Ki.
Mind: Psionics.
Soul: Magic.
Now, a strong soul may be required to train your body to harness your ki, or a strong mind required to study magic, but that doesn't change the power source of the type of supernatural power.
>>45950740
It depends on what magic is and what psionics is. If you can answer those questions definitively for both, the answer to how they work should stem from that. If you can't answer for one or both, maybe that's something better omitted from your game until you can.
>>45961745
Emotions would probably fall under "instinct" to a degree.
Though you're right in that it feels very "Left Brain/Right Brain" when you think about it that way.
>>45963092
>Body: Ki.
Eh, okay kind of I guess.
>Mind: Psionics.
Right.
>Soul: Magic.
What the fuck, no. Why would you even do that?
>>45964545
Magic is the most spiritual of the three. Why not?
>>45964661
Notice how you didn't just say it was the most soulful of the three?
>>45964676
Not that guy, but many people consider the Soul and the Spirit interchangeable terms. That's probably what that anon is doing as well.
>>45964676
"Soul" and "spirit" are synonyms. There is a nuanced difference between the two, and they're not entirely interchangeable, but they're still very similar in meaning.
The primary difference between "soul" and "spirit" is that "soul" refers specifically the supernatural essence of a natural thing. "Spirit" simply refers to a supernatural essence. "Forest spirits" implies something very different from "forest souls".
However, when we're talking about people, the distinction between "spirit" and "soul" ceases to exist. Your spirit is your soul and vice-versa. So if the use of magic somehow involves one's spirit -- an assumption that wouldn't be too much of a stretch to make in most settings -- it also involves one's soul.
Thus, at least for humans and other earthly races, magic, psychic powers and ki form a neat little triad of soul, mind, and body.
>>45963092
I'd actually say:
>Constitution=Ki
>Charisma=Psionics
>Intelligence=Magic
>Wisdom=Divine/Nature
>>45964940
Those people are dumb.
>>45964982
If you make up new meanings to common words in your setting, you can't just expect people to automatically know what you mean without explanation.
>>45965065Psyche is the greek term for "soul", and for "Spirit" and for "mind"
>>45965233
As it happens, we're speaking English now.
>>45964995
If we're going by stats, pushing psionics out of the "intelligence" seat to make room for arcane magic seems like a bit of a stretch. If we consider intelligence to be necessary to study and use magic, but not to be its primary power source, we don't need to do that. Furthermore, mechanically speaking, you don't need to have two different things use two different stats for them to feel different -- Bard's songs, a Sorceror's magic, and a Paladin's valor are all associated with charisma. If it's a question of balancing how diverse and valuable each stats is, there are plenty of other ways to do that.
>>45965065
>>45965259
I'm not making up a new meaning for a word; the definitions I just gave of the words "spirit" and "soul" are the ones used in IRL English. I could go into the nuances in those words when they're used countably ("how many spirits" and "how many souls") vs. uncountably ("how much spirit" and "how much soul") but that isn't really relevant.
>>45965259
Speak for yourself, human
