So I've been planning on doing a low fantasy campaign for a while. Now when i say low fantasy i don't just mean low point buy system i mean that magic is a rare and likely feared.
From what i can tell there are 3 ways to deal with this.
1: allow all magic: This does nothing but let the the caster players run wild and become more overpowered than they already are.
2: Disallow all: Have to where players cannot cast spells. This mega nerf hammer really limits the amount of classes and options. Leaving stats like int and wis at 10 if not lower.
3: DM's discretion: This tends to start conflicts and has the chance to heavily swing into 1 or 2's category.
4: and the one i'm currently doing, Custom Spell list.
This requires a lot of time and effort to make a list of all the spells.
So what i'm asking is what are your thought and suggestions?
Words of Power is pretty good. Extremely restricted already and plays pretty much exactly like the normal; prepare a word, expend it. Screws a few classes, like alchemist and summoner, though
>>45747307
Play a different game.
>>45747377
Really dude.
If you don't have any suggestions or recommendation then please keep your useless comment to yourself.
Ban magic item creation from players beyond Potion-Wand-Scroll, and even those consider tentatively. Higher control over what magic is just laying around is better.
>>45747372
cool cool ty
>>45747455
Play a different game.
>>45747477
See i'm looking for something like the magic in LOTR. It's there and a few ppl can use it but a spell like dimensional door or Fly are not used.
Grab 5e's answers and port them.
>concentration checks
Spells with a duration of longer than 1 round require concentration. You can only concentrate on one spell at a time, and if you take damage while concentrating you must make a... Concentration skill check, probably? Figure out the DC using PF's math. Failed check = the spell ends early.
>no bonus spell slots
Casters don't get extra spell slots from high casting scores.
>magic item restrictions
Use the automatic bonus progression from Unchained to make characters less reliant on crafting casters.
And for god's sake, allow stuff like Path of War for martials.
Of course, the best answer is to choose a different game that is better suited to low-magic settings. You clearly don't like that answer, so suit yourself.
>>45747455
except it isn't useless comment, it is valuable advice.
d&d and its derivatives are terrible systems, for most uses except "tactical miniature wargame with more story" or "beer and pretzels joke game", and even those only assuming you WANT retarded power level of both magic and mundane.
Yet people stick to them without even trying other stuff because "its popular" or "they got used to it". It is stupid. Don'r be like them.
>>45747564
i'm fine with a different game.
If you have one please suggest it.
I just don't like ppl who reply to every negative post with "play a different game"
>>45747570
>I'm using clay to make a vase. Do you have any advice?
>Use glass, and make a bowl instead.
>>45747570
See your comment provides content and reason as to your stance. which i'm fine with.
But the blank comment "play a different game" is a poor mans reply.
>>45747603
more like
>im using clay to make a vase, but it's too hard, help plox
>dude, that's no clay, thats mud, use actual clay instead
>REEEE I WANT TO USE THIS CLAY OF MINE
>>45747603
More like using clay to make armor, and someone suggests switching to an iron alloy amirite
Words of Power from Ultimate Magic probably your best bet. Very flexible, and allows you to create your own spells. It allows non-casters to shine by taking away some of the utility aspect of magic, forcing players to rely on their more skill-heavy team-mates to shine. Your other option is to simply create (or steal) a random table of magical mishaps, sort of like dark heresy has, and force magic user's to roll each time they cast a spell. finally, you could actually require that casters have the right components to the spell, rather than letting them just use a spell component pouch. If you do this, casting spells becomes a gamble: you might need that component later, and you don't know when you will next get your hand's on some bat guano or onyx or what have you.
If you have a suggestion for s different game suggest away.
I'm not glued to the Pathfinder system.
Again just PROVIDE something more then "pathfinder is bad
If magic is feared but exists, make it dangerous. Either use sanity rules or possibly taint, like from Unearthed Arcana. Wizards and other casters are feared because they get psychotic, twisted, possessed by evil, etc. Maybe a lucky few resist the darkness from.which magic comes, but they risk much to play with fire. Players can take that risk and get burnt on their own.
>>45747307
Custom spell list takes a lot less time if you only do it past a certain level.
There's not much point in being super anal about casters using good spells under 5th spell level to begin with, because for the most part skill monkey's and martial can do better than or keep up with casters up to about 9th level, when casters really come into their own.
In any case, it's still another use of DM's Discretion, you don't really have an option other than telling your players they're going to have to suck it up.
Personally I cut off all spells after 5th or 6th level, and have them research any spell they want to rediscover using the spell research rules. It makes for a much more limited spell list, and I can nix anything that seems like it could be a problem when they ask if they can research xyz.
Another possibility, that could be in place of or in addition to this, would be to cut off all tier 1 casting classes. It works a lot better if you allow some 3.5 content as 3.5 has a lot of pretty solid classes that are unfortunately a lot like crappywizard.jpg when it comes to spell-casting, but otherwise quite interesting.
This all takes care of the issue of magic balance, but if you really are just after the theme of small amounts of rare magic, I'd probably go about it differently, as balance is actually totally irrelevant.
Ban all traditional spellcasters. All of them. All psionics too. No casting paladins or rangers either.
>Allow Path of War
>Allow Akashic Magic
>Tentatively consider allowing Radience house's Occultist (way different from core).
Path of war makes martial classes not shit. Actually it makes them a ton of fun. I almost always play casters, but my Warder is probably my second most fun character of all time, mainly because the class heavily enables the all out all in badass playstyle I take with the character.
>>45747727
It's hard to suggest something if we don't rally know specific expetations. Presumably generic fantasy + low magic... but that's still not much.
I'm personally using Heroquest mechanics as a stand-in mechanics for settings that haven't cool rules specifically for them, though it is sharp and brutal transition from D&D and maybe hard to switch. If you want something more in between, with more "solid" crunch i guess Riddle of Steel/Song of Swords/Harnmaster/Runequest could be considered - although i never played any of those, but on paper they look way better than D&D for most uses.
And there's probably fuckton of cool RPGs that i don't know or only heard a name - explore, find new things on your own, it's part of the fun.
>>45747905
>>45747307
cont
Akashic magic offers a much weaker alternative to primary spell-casters, which is for the most part a little more low-key, rather than pulling meteors down from the sky or stopping time.
the occultist can do a ton of things. It's a lot like a spell casting class in a lot of ways, but can be good at a fuck load of different stuff. What's important to know, is that it uses an interesting system of binding spirits to you to gain a limited set of powers rather than traditional spellcasting. This makes it, although powerful, much more balance than an insanely flexible class like wizard. The ritual and spirit summoning also offer a much more low magic theme than most arcane classes, which you could re-flavor to be more toned down even than that on your own.
It's probably more castery and magically powerful than the akashic stuff though, so maybe not what you're going for.
I should also mention that the crafter path Vizier can be extremely powerful if you let item creation get out of hand, so just don't bitch out when your players beg you to allow their super op custom magical bullshit +5000.
Currently playing in a homebrew setting with just path of war + non-caster core + akashic and it's pretty damn fun. Balance is pretty good, but the restriction does need to make a lot of sense with the theme.
Cool thanks for the suggestions.
I have a lot of reading and play testing to do.
>>45747905
>>45748039
>>45747307
Final note. In reference to the "hurdur play a different game" comments. Ignore those faggots.
Playing a variety of different systems is fun, but there's no particular need for you to switch, especially if you're comfortable with your current setting of choice. You will have a MUCH harder time learning some new system, particularly if your players don't know it either, than you will making a few simple changes to what's allowed in a particular campaign.
If I had to recommend something for low tech medieval style fantasy, where magic is naught but myth and legend though? Maybe GURPS I'm sure it's got a billion extensions for that kind of thing, and allows pretty flexible character creation that's already good without "casting" class options. Super pain in the ass to learn at first though.
Also I second this
>>45747372
>>45747727
warhammer rpg is quite good
>>45747570
That's your opinion.
The actual reason that >>45747307 OP shouldn't use PF is that it's inherently built as a high-fantasy caster supremacy game, and trying to go against the whole point of the system is a lot more work than playing a game built around low-fantasy.
Hell, there's even some shitty OGL d20 games that are built low-fantasy.
>>45748135
>Ignore those faggots.
Ignore THIS faggot.
Yes you CAN pound a nail with a pipewrench. That doesn't mean you wouldn't be better off with a hammer.
Pick a system that's built for the kind of game that you want to play. It'll make your gaming life so much easier and better.
I'm currently playing in a low fantasy setting.
We have two casters, a magus and a cleric who what a limited set of magic they can take.
I play a barbarian who has a armor crafting, but do to low magic setting i cant take master crafting to make magic armor.
Well, i was a bit disapointed, but still its a fun game that our GM made for some of our starters in tabletop gaming to get a hang of roleplaying.
Play Fantasy Craft. It's D20 that can do low/no magic just fine.
>>45748135
>You will have a MUCH harder time learning some new system
Except no systemFATAL isn't playable, so it's not exactly a systemrequires as much time to learn as D&D clones.
I mean, i'm okay with PF/D&D, just saying that you are objectively wrong.
>>45747307
I would limit the class types, and then limit the number of spells they can learn, especially when it comes to cantrips and orisons.
Start with 1 Cantrip and 1 first level spell, then learn 1 additional spell each level. The new spells can be from any spell level so long as the character would normally be able to cast spells of that level. Instead of spells per day I would use "Mana" for arcane magic (Level + Int Mod) and Faith for divine magic (Level + Wis Mod) Cost for spell casts is equal to the spell level
>>45747307
All players are initiators. Enemy lieutenants and higher are initiators. Some BBEGs might be casters. Magic items are either inherent or made by people with master craftsman.
You could use my method, though it will require you to think and do some work. It works pretty well.
I think the best way to do it is to actually enforce the material component and focus components of spells, and not let players assume that they have common components just because of a component pouch.
Casting spells becomes much less routine when you actually have to acquire and keep track of how much bat guano and sulfur you have on hand to cast fireballs.
Many of the components wouldn't be readily available outside of large towns and cities, so acquiring more components could become quests on their own.
Additionally, rather than letting casters create magic items as a more or less automatic thing, require them to use rare and hard to get material components for their construction. A wand of fireball could have to be carved out of the bone of a red or gold dragon, for example, which would require the party to go find a dragon before it could be made. Magic swords and other weapons could require similarly difficult to acquire materials.
So I had a thought.
Iron, specifically Cold Iron, is usually quite effective against Fey creatures and Outsiders in most D&D, correct? Since both are very magical types of beings, that seems to imply it's got some anti-magical nature to it. I don't think it'd be too much of a stretch to devise a system of magic resistant metals and materials that would allow magic to remain as powerful in theory, but limit its usability against foes who prepared for it.
The mage goes to fire off a fireball and the enemy knight in iron maille walks through it, his armor having resisted the effect enough for him to avoid severe (but perhaps not total) harm. The mage would have to adapt, getting special feats or planning with the party to find a way around these defenses (Sunder can finally be useful!) so he can do his (pun intended) magic and wreck shit. This way the mage is still scary mother fucker but gives a reason as to why they aren't the be-all, end-all answer to everything. As for magical gear; it would do the opposite and act as a conduit for magical energy and make them MORE vulnerable to magic(Since, I don't know about you, but my players fucking LOVE them their magic items to rather setting straining levels).
I'm sure the system would take a lot of work and playtesting to really nail down, but it seems like a interesting way for doing this idea to me. I'm thinking different materials for different kinds of magic, if you want to go that complex, and feats and options to get around it as a mage that are high-risk/high-reward. This won't deal with the utility aspects of magic as much as the combat, but I'm meditating on some for that too.
>>45747455
Except it's good advice 3e handles low magic porely and everything that 3e is not good at pathfinder is worse at.
3e may be the best system in general but it's one of the worst for low magic and pathfinder is even worse.
This is late, but it is entirely possible to use other forms of casting that are generally worse recieved, but better balanced. For instance shadowcasting, word casting, incarnum or akashic magic, binding or pact magic, even psionics, they all make for a more flavorful casting system that is less capable of breaking the game in half.
